Patrick Ewing vs. Draymond Green: who is the greater defender?

[72-10]

Might depend on how you define greatness. Might depend on how many years Draymond played at least theoretical third-team level.

Ewing's defensive voting
1991: third team (11 points, 2 first team votes; Robinson first team, Olajuwon second team)
1992: second team (18 points, 4 first team votes; Robinson first team)
1993: third team (6 points, 1 first team vote; Olajuwon first team, Robinson second team)
1994: fourth team (5 points, 1 first team vote; Dikembe Mutombo 7 points, 3 first team votes; Olajuwon first team, Robinson second team)
1995: fourth team (1 point; Hakeem Olajuwon 23 points, 6 first team votes; Robinson first team, Mutombo second team)
1996:
1997:
1998:
1999:
2000:

[Kblaze8855]

Ewing for then when man to man post defense without requiring help could ruin the other teams game plan and Draymond now that you switch everything and play at 28 feet half the game. Most of basketball history Ewing is the more effective defender. The last 5 years it would probably be Draymond.

[72-10]

Might depend on how you define greatness. Might depend on how many years Draymond played at least theoretical third-team level.

Ewing's defensive voting
1986: fifth team (3 points, Mark Eaton first team, Manute Bol second team, Akeem Olajuwon third team, Buck Williams fourth team)
1987: ?
1988: second team (Hakeem Olajuwon first team)
1989: second team (Mark Eaton first team)
1990: ?
1991: third team (11 points, 2 first team votes; Robinson first team, Olajuwon second team)
1992: second team (18 points, 4 first team votes; Robinson first team)
1993: third team (6 points, 1 first team vote; Olajuwon first team, Robinson second team)
1994: fourth team (5 points, 1 first team vote; Dikembe Mutombo 7 points, 3 first team votes; Olajuwon first team, Robinson second team)
1995: fourth team (1 point; Hakeem Olajuwon 23 points, 6 first team votes; Robinson first team, Mutombo second team)
1996: no team
1997: fifth team (1 point; Mutombo first team, Olajuwon second team, Alonzo Mourning third team, Shawn Bradley fourth team)

[Whoah10115]

I think I go with Pat, because the Knicks are there with the late 90s Bulls and the late 00s Celtics as the best defenses I've seen..Oak was there and he's all-time, plus Starks and Harper and Mason. Patrick was amazing tho.

I think Green is a better defender overall than Kawhi (oh wow) and I think he's close. Maybe the best defender in the league now.

But Kblaze is probably right...then again, is Gobert a better defender than Ewing? And look at his impact. So I don't know.

[tpols]

LOL

[FromDowntown]

What KBlaze said for the most part, PLUS

Draymond led the league in DBPM 2 years:
2014 (3.6)
2017 (3.9)
With a career DBPM of: 2.8

Ewing never led the league in DBPM and his 2 best seasons were
1994 (2.7)
1988 (2.4)
With a career DBPM of 1.6

If you go to the playoffs the edge for Draymond is even bigger:
Similar circumstances, Dray's 2 best playoff years were 2014 and 2017 where he lead the entire league in DBPM again. Patrick never did this or even had similar numbers.

Dray's 2 best post seasons:
2014 (4.2)
2017 (4.2)

Ewing's 2 best post seasons:
1992 (2.4)
1996 (2.4)

[warriorfan]

What KBlaze said for the most part, PLUS

Draymond led the league in DBPM 2 years:
2014 (3.6)
2017 (3.9)
With a career DBPM of: 2.8

Ewing never led the league in DBPM and his 2 best seasons were
1994 (2.7)
1988 (2.4)
With a career DBPM of 1.6

If you go to the playoffs the edge for Draymond is even bigger:
Similar circumstances, Dray's 2 best playoff years were 2014 and 2017 where he lead the entire league in DBPM again. Patrick never did this or even had similar numbers.

Dray's 2 best post seasons:
2014 (4.2)
2017 (4.2)

Ewing's 2 best post seasons:
1992 (2.4)
1996 (2.4)

Why are you posting DPBM like this and using it to rank players defensively?

https://i.postimg.cc/7LX1H3Nb/B93-D0-F9-F-5159-473-D-8-F79-FF2409-B86-F22.jpg

Here is the top 10 DPBMs of all time. According to your stat, Nate McMillan in 1994 was the greatest defensive player of all time....

Also ironically enough, players from the era you guys said are “janitors and mechanics” dominate the top scores of DPBM.

Even the creator of BPM has this to say about it


Box Plus/Minus is a very good offensive metric, but it struggles some with defense. As mentioned before, when all you have is a box score, you cannot estimate defense very well. Not including minutes per game in the regression also hampers the accuracy of the defensive estimates. In other words--take DBPM with a spoonful of salt.

So for a quick tldr,

Stop copy pasting bullshit off basketball reference when you have no idea what it represents besides “higher number must > lower number!” You are wasting everyone’s time including your own.

[FromDowntown]

Why are you posting DPBM like this and using it to rank players defensively?

https://i.postimg.cc/7LX1H3Nb/B93-D0-F9-F-5159-473-D-8-F79-FF2409-B86-F22.jpg

Here is the top 10 DPBMs of all time. According to your stat, Nate McMillan in 1994 was the greatest defensive player of all time....

Also ironically enough, players from the era you guys said are “janitors and mechanics” dominate the top scores of DPBM.

Even the creator of BPM has this to say about it



So for a quick tldr,

Stop copy pasting bullshit off basketball reference when you have no idea what it represents besides “higher number must > lower number!” You are wasting everyone’s time including your own.

We get it...You hate LeBron

[warriorfan]

We get it...You hate LeBron

No. I’m explaining to you why your previous post was all low iq nonsense that literally didn’t mean anything. If you weren’t able to grasp my fairly detailed explanation why, then I’m afraid to say there is no hope for you. Maybe you should do everyone a favor and stop posting all together.

[LAmbruh]

What KBlaze said for the most part, PLUS

Draymond led the league in DBPM 2 years:
2014 (3.6)
2017 (3.9)
With a career DBPM of: 2.8

Ewing never led the league in DBPM and his 2 best seasons were
1994 (2.7)
1988 (2.4)
With a career DBPM of 1.6

If you go to the playoffs the edge for Draymond is even bigger:
Similar circumstances, Dray's 2 best playoff years were 2014 and 2017 where he lead the entire league in DBPM again. Patrick never did this or even had similar numbers.

Dray's 2 best post seasons:
2014 (4.2)
2017 (4.2)

Ewing's 2 best post seasons:
1992 (2.4)
1996 (2.4)

Great post :applause:

[TheImmortal]

Ewing and it isn't even close. Draymond triple single bs and overrated defense makes him the most overrated player of all-time outside of LeBJ.

[LostCause]

FWIW Ewing has anchored 2 of the Top 10 greatest defenses of all time

Draymonds never accomplished this

[red1]

draymond is trash. he got cooked by siakam as well.

the warriors were always a two man team curry and klay the splash bros. we've seen how garbage draymond is when he has to play alone - king charles barkley, the legendary "triple single"

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DimwittedLazyBuzzard-size_restricted.gif
https://media3.giphy.com/media/LkxlCRKsabnQOuUx6r/source.gif
https://media1.tenor.com/images/4259162e4f3f2625402b7636947404b9/tenor.gif

[Stanley Kobrick]

Draymond by quite a lot. ewing had to wear knee braces and could barely move laterally half his career. also we must take into account Ewings competition vs Green's, who is far more versatile and talent skilled compared to Patrick's. ewing would be sucking wind and exhausted by half trying to guard and run with the players of today. Green on the other had would fit in incredibly back then, like Rodman but also dominate llke Charles offensively as well

[red1]

voted ewing not even a question.

[Stanley Kobrick]

FWIW Ewing has anchored 2 of the Top 10 greatest defenses of all time

Draymonds never accomplished this
Draymond has anchored 3 championship teams and 5x Finals team, something of which Ewing never even came close to producing. Patricks resume is comparable to the likes of Joel Embiid, except for his entire career.

[LostCause]

Draymond has anchored 3 championship teams and 5x Finals team, something of which Ewing never even came close to producing. Patricks resume is comparable to the likes of Joel Embiid, except for his entire career.

Embiid has never anchored a defense on the level of Ewing

Also, the topic is who's a greater defender. Ewing has anchored some GOAT-tier defenses. Draymond not so much.

Considering the Warriors were the greatest offensive team of all-time, not defensive, him winning championships isn't much of an argument here

[Stanley Kobrick]

Embiid has never anchored a defense on the level of Ewing

Also, the topic is who's a greater defender. Ewing has anchored some GOAT-tier defenses. Draymond not so much.

Considering the Warriors were the greatest offensive team of all-time, not defensive, him winning championships isn't much of an argument here
#4 ranked defense 2014
#1 ranked defense in 2016
#1 ranked defense in 2017

but yes, Warriors were only known for offense yet somehow Draymond unlike Ewing capitalized multiple championships on top of anchoring leagues best defense along with top offenses. GSW was a juggernaut defensively that got shadowed by NBA's all-time best offense

[FromDowntown]

Draymond has anchored 3 championship teams and 5x Finals team, something of which Ewing never even came close to producing. Patricks resume is comparable to the likes of Joel Embiid, except for his entire career.

Imagine anchoring a 73-win team and LostCause forgot about it :lol

[FromDowntown]

No. I’m explaining to you why your previous post was all low iq nonsense that literally didn’t mean anything. If you weren’t able to grasp my fairly detailed explanation why, then I’m afraid to say there is no hope for you. Maybe you should do everyone a favor and stop posting all together.

Hows your shoebox during covid-19? how can you stay 6 feet apart when your whole shoebox is only 6 feet?

[warriorfan]

Hows your shoebox during covid-19? how can you stay 6 feet apart when your whole shoebox is only 6 feet?

Keep copy pasting meaningless statistics from basketball reference and pretending to know what you are talking about. There is a reason why all of your other accounts are banned. You don’t have anything to really say besides cringeworthy trolling. You should stop posting all together until you can contribute better material; if you haven’t taken the hint already. Realistically at this point, you are who you are. I give it less than a month before you get banned again.

[superduper]

Draymond is the better team defender

Ewing was the better man to man defender.

It's that simple.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Hows your shoebox during covid-19? how can you stay 6 feet apart when your whole shoebox is only 6 feet?

:roll::roll:

[tpols]

FWIW Ewing has anchored 2 of the Top 10 greatest defenses of all time

Draymonds never accomplished this

the Dubs are 26th ranked defense this year with just dray leading the way.

he has absolutely no anchoring ability. They were great in the past because of the team... not dray.

he's a second round role player for a reason....

[tpols]

Imagine the knicks without ewing... theyre a lottery team.

[FromDowntown]

:roll::roll:

One of the many unaswered questions about a ashy poverty stricken lowlife :lol

[FromDowntown]

Imagine the knicks without ewing... theyre a lottery team.

Well Ewing can score too...

This is strictly about DEFENSE however

[tpols]

Well Ewing can score too...

This is strictly about DEFENSE however

Ewing's defense was better than his offense... he was actually quite inefficient as an offensive player and not a great passer.

His grit and defense are what made him... and what made the 90s knicks the 90s knicks.

Comparing him to draymond green is like comparing outback to peter luger's.

[warriorfan]

https://i.postimg.cc/1zvxNmxM/1-EC46-B3-B-F672-4-C40-A1-D1-B0-C50115-C0-CC.jpg

[FromDowntown]

https://i.postimg.cc/1zvxNmxM/1-EC46-B3-B-F672-4-C40-A1-D1-B0-C50115-C0-CC.jpg

6-feet COVID-19#shoeBox

[warriorfan]

6-feet COVID-19#shoeBox

If anyone is dealing well with covid 19 it has to be you

https://i.postimg.cc/JhVBJdHk/280-F87-C4-99-C8-45-C8-AE9-F-A5-C1-F419-BB78.jpg


Staying inside all day...just business as usual right? :lol

[FromDowntown]

If anyone is dealing well with covid 19 it has to be you

https://i.postimg.cc/JhVBJdHk/280-F87-C4-99-C8-45-C8-AE9-F-A5-C1-F419-BB78.jpg


Staying inside all day...just business as usual right? :lol
Is it hard to practice 6 feet of social distancing when you live in a 6-foot shoe box?

[Phoenix]

#4 ranked defense 2014
#1 ranked defense in 2016
#1 ranked defense in 2017

but yes, Warriors were only known for offense yet somehow Draymond unlike Ewing capitalized multiple championships on top of anchoring leagues best defense along with top offenses. GSW was a juggernaut defensively that got shadowed by NBA's all-time best offense

They were also 11th in 2018 and still won. They obviously were elite defensively at their peak(2017) but their GOAT offense afforded them the margin of error that separated them from everyone else. Nobody was ever going to outgun that Warriors team when healthy, not with that personnel, and not in this era. The 2017 Warriors could have been 10th defensively or whatever and still ran over the league. Ewing likely has a couple of championships if not running into a GOAT level Bulls squad or Hakeem.

Despite their rankings, when people think of the Warriors it is and will be the unmatched firepower first and foremost. They won't be thought of a 'defensive team' where it was literally their identity in the way the early's 90s Knicks or 04 Pistons were. Those teams were defined by their defense and had to be, because they were mediocre offensive squads.

[Stanley Kobrick]

Ewing likely has a couple of championships if not running into a GOAT level Bulls squad or Hakeem.

Celitcs 1st round exit
Pistons 2nd round exit
Pacers 2nd round exit
Heat 2nd round exit
Pacers 2nd round exit
Spurs Finals backdoor sweep
Pacers ECF exit
Hornets 1st round exit

Nope had nothing do with Bulls or Hakeem, Ewing like many other overhyped 90's stars were consistent playoff chokers. Malone and Stockton being the worst. Very common from 90's players being as the league was very diluted with poor talent, Stern needed to manufacture stars. Not to mention Knicks were right back in the playoffs after his departure to the Sonics

[Reggie43]

Peak Ewing without the injuries was so much better than an era specific defender like draymond.

[Phoenix]

Celitcs 1st round exit
Pistons 2nd round exit
Pacers 2nd round exit
Heat 2nd round exit
Pacers 2nd round exit
Spurs Finals backdoor sweep
Pacers ECF exit
Hornets 1st round exit

Nope had nothing do with Bulls or Hakeem, Ewing like many other overhyped 90's stars were consistent playoff chokers. Malone and Stockton being the worst. Very common from 90's players being as the league was very diluted with poor talent, Stern needed to manufacture stars. Not to mention Knicks were right back in the playoffs after his departure to the Sonics
The Knicks between 92 and 94 were generally good enough to win if not for who they ran into those seasons. Hell, if Starks doesnt shit the bed in game 7 94 who knows.Listing the occurrences they lost to other players doesnt disprove my point that they had a window of being good enough to win a title and ran into peak MJ and Hakeem. The 92 and 93 Knicks would have been too physical for Portland and Phoenix had they gotten past MJ and into the finals.

[Axe]

In 92 and 93 he lost to MJ and had the Knicks gotten to the finals I would have taken them over both Portland and Phoenix. In 94 he lost in 7 to Hakeem. Those years the Knicks were very capable of winning a title so listing all the times he didnt play Jordan or Hakeem doesnt disprove the point I was making. The Knicks between 92 and 94 were generally good enough to win if not for who they ran into those seasons. Hell, if Starks doesnt shit the bed in game 7 94 who knows.
Of course they're capable. They have pat riley as their coach.

[FromDowntown]

Celitcs 1st round exit
Pistons 2nd round exit
Pacers 2nd round exit
Heat 2nd round exit
Pacers 2nd round exit
Spurs Finals backdoor sweep
Pacers ECF exit
Hornets 1st round exit

Nope had nothing do with Bulls or Hakeem, Ewing like many other overhyped 90's stars were consistent playoff chokers. Malone and Stockton being the worst. Very common from 90's players being as the league was very diluted with poor talent, Stern needed to manufacture stars. Not to mention Knicks were right back in the playoffs after his departure to the Sonics
Check mate

[tpols]

We're literally comparing the first option on a team that put the dynasty Chicago Bulls through the ringer, to a third / fourth option on the late and great dubs.

Whats next?

anthony mason vs steph curry!

[FromDowntown]

Peak Ewing without the injuries was so much better than an era specific defender like draymond.

Imagine Ewing in 2016 getting switched at the 3-point line against a smaller guard :lol

Bye

[Phoenix]

Draymond by quite a lot. ewing had to wear knee braces and could barely move laterally half his career. also we must take into account Ewings competition vs Green's, who is far more versatile and talent skilled compared to Patrick's. ewing would be sucking wind and exhausted by half trying to guard and run with the players of today. Green on the other had would fit in incredibly back then, like Rodman but also dominate llke Charles offensively as well

Oh I missed this classic. Take into account Ewings competition? You mean Hakeem? Shaq? David Robinson? Mourning? That competition?!

This dude says a guy doing 8/6/6 on 49% TS without his HOF teammates carrying his ass, will transport into the 90s and fit in like Rodman and dominate like Barkley offensively. Theres not a worse take on the internet anywhere today. There just can't be.

[Reggie43]

imagine draymond at 6'6" playing center in the 90s :lol

[Round Mound]

Once again comparing a superstar to a 4th option :facepalm

[Whoah10115]

What was a good conversation has turned into garbage.

[Lebron23]

I hate Draymond Green with a passion, but he is a better defender than Patrick Ewing.

[FromDowntown]

Once again comparing a superstar to a 4th option :facepalm

D E F E N D E R tho ...

[Round Mound]

D E F E N D E R tho ...

Perimeter Defender? Green
Post Defense and Rim Protection (shot blocking)? Pat

[andgar923]

You can’t teach big.

Not only was Ewing big, he was smart, had great timing and was tough.

[andgar923]

If Green is the best (one of) the best defenders today....


MJ will mos def get 50 a night.
If Green blocked Bron multiple times, he ain’t even sniffing going to the paint in the 90s.



See how easy this is.

[Axe]

And he looks scary as well.

[LostCause]

#4 ranked defense 2014
#1 ranked defense in 2016
#1 ranked defense in 2017

but yes, Warriors were only known for offense yet somehow Draymond unlike Ewing capitalized multiple championships on top of anchoring leagues best defense along with top offenses. GSW was a juggernaut defensively that got shadowed by NBA's all-time best offense

2014 Warriors rDRTG: -4.1 (BTW, Draymond didn't anchor this defense playing 21mpg off the bench)
2016 Warriors rDRTG: -2.6
2017 Warriors rDRTG: -4.8

None of those defenses were on the level of Ewings work

1993 Knicks rDRTG: -8.3
1994 Knicks rDRTG: -8.1
1995 Knicks rDRTG: -4.5

Because I'm sure you don't know the significance of these numbers, the league average ORTG was 108.0 in 93. The Knicks' DRTG was best in the league at 99.7. The next best team DRTG, the Sonics, were at 104.9. That's a difference of -5.2 between the best and 2nd best in the league that year. The best rDRTG for the years you listed the Warriors was -4.8

To put it into perspective, throughout the 65+ years that we have this data for (and thus over 1200+ teams across all these seasons) only 8 have an rDRTG of -8.0 or better. Four were Bill Russell's Celtics, KG's 08 Celtics (-8.6), Duncan's 04 Spurs (-8.8) and BOTH Knicks teams listed above. rDRTG by its definition accounts for era, btw, so this is about an objective a way to compare defenses across era's as possible

Think it's pretty clear Ewing's defensive impact was well ahead of Draymonds

Glad I could help inform

[imdaman99]

Depends what you need. Ewing was a rim protector, but he would get exposed in pick and rolls in the modern era, which Draymond does not (often). Ewing had some amazing blocks, I remember that crazy 1 he had on Olajuwon at the end of the half in game 5 of the finals (the only game he outplayed Hakeem). But I would take Draymond. It's funny because Ewing was supposed to be an amazing Bill Russell type elite defender when he was coming out of college, but he fell far short of that. But his offense was great.

[TheImmortal]

Green wasn't even the best defender on the teams he was apart of..


Durant
Igoudala

Were clearly better. There's an argument for the short stints Livingston was on par in terms of effectiveness. McGee's impact at the defensive end with the Warriors was game changing and deterring guys from the rim.


Sorry but Draymond is closer to a scrub than a legend. And I'm a huge LeBron fan.

[Whoah10115]

Yeah Durant not in the same tier as Green, lol.

[andgar923]

FYI Ewing was great at switching out on the perimeter. He was good at switching and anticipating pick and rolls, and had enough length that he could challenge a deep shot when rotating late.

[Gougou]

Green, Ewing can't even stop The Dream.

[Phoenix]

Green, Ewing can't even stop The Dream.

:durantunimpressed:

[GimmeThat]

well, this thread is a grenade, if you just had your eyes wide open, it'd go to Ewing

[Akeem34TheDream]

Green, Ewing can't even stop The Dream.

What?? LOL

[Axe]

Green, Ewing can't even stop The Dream.
That's a fake news...

Nope, just kidding.

[ImKobe]

well, this thread is a grenade, if you just had your eyes wide open, it'd go to Ewing

Draymond is a more versatile defender. Depends on the era we're talking about. Put peak Ewing in the 2016 NBA and he's not a better defensive player than Draymond. It's not a huge margin we're talking about here, but he wouldn't be nearly as effective in this small ball league. Dray would be too small to defend the 5 in the 90s but he still could be an elite defensive player & rebounder like Rodman was.

[Phoenix]

Draymond is a more versatile defender. Depends on the era we're talking about. Put peak Ewing in the 2016 NBA and he's not a better defensive player than Draymond. It's not a huge margin we're talking about here, but he wouldn't be nearly as effective in this small ball league. Dray would be too small to defend the 5 in the 90s but he still could be an elite defensive player & rebounder like Rodman was.

Peak Rodman was doing 18 rebounds a game despite being like 6'6 and 220. He had a nose for how the ball came off the rim and a great second and third jump. Draymond can't even grab 10 boards a game in this era when all the bigs are being pulled away from the basket. I see no way he becomes an elite rebounder in a league where all the centers and power forward played their traditional roles close to the basket.

In the 90s he'd be an undersized power forward. So was Barkley but he had way more bounce off the floor and power, plus he also had a great knack for the ball and quick multiple jump ability ala Rodman which allowed him to be one of the dominant rebounders of his era. He's gonna have a hard time with the Malone/Barkley/Coleman/Kemp types. He's a defender built for this era.

[KD7]

The one that can defend multiple positions and anchored a 3 time championship defense

[ClipperRevival]

Pat had 2 huge misfortunes:

1) Had to go up against the GOAT at his peak/prime
2) Played in the most stacked era ever for GOAT tier centers

In almost any other era, his star shines brighter. Ewing was a beast.

As for the question, Ewing all day, even in this era. Ewing was very athletic and mobile. No player impacts the D end more than a dominant, rim protecting D.

[ClipperRevival]

Anyone else think the Dray before Dray was Anthony Mason? Mason was pretty mobile and athletic as a Knick, could defend multiple positions, handle the rock some and set guys up. Mason was a pretty damn good player.

[Whoah10115]

Anyone else think the Dray before Dray was Anthony Mason? Mason was pretty mobile and athletic as a Knick, could defend multiple positions, handle the rock some and set guys up. Mason was a pretty damn good player.

This is very good...Mason was better, actually. I could give Green advantage on defense, but Mase was a much better rebounder, also a terrific playmaker and passer. And he scored more.

If Green is better then it's due to his IQ and ability to be terrific over a longer period.

But at his best I think Mason was better.

[DOUBLE DRIBBLE]

I’m not even a Draymond fan or even a fan of this era but Draymond without a doubt is the better defender overall between he and Ewing. Ewing was known as a very good center on offensive but his defense was average at best. Draymond is an elite defender. IMO 2 of Ewing’s all defensive team selections should of went to Olajuwon instead... Ewing was hyped more because he played in NY.

Ewing was a great Center overall but defensively... overrated.