So who's on the top 9-10 currently?

[dbugz]

Kawhi
Giannis
LeBron
KD (still top 10 if healthy)
Steph (still top 10 if healthy)
Harden
AD
Lillard

These guys are locked.

Been in a debate with a friend on who among these players below should be included in the top 10?

Embiid
Jimmy Butler
Kyrie
Westbrook
PG
Jokic
Brad Beal
Doncic
KAT

[Whoah10115]

Chris Paul. Definitely Chris Paul. Prime, whatever.

I guess Westbrook, who I don't like at all. Let's let the season finish before adding Doncic.

Tho Jokic has an argument based on last season. Been great this year too.

[Phoenix]

Luka and Westbrook round out the top ten taking your list in consideration. I'm giving Steph and KD the benefit of doubt that they return to, or close to, top form.

[Manny98]

1. LeBron
2. KD (healthy)
3. Giannis
4. Kawhi
5. Curry (healthy)
6. Harden
7. AD
8. CP3
9. Kyrie (healthy)
10. Lillard

Honourable mentions:

Westbrook
Jokic
PG
EmChoke

[StrongLurk]

Luka is easily top 10. Any list without him in the top 10 is invalid.

[Manny98]

Luka is easily top 10. Any list without him in the top 10 is invalid.
Luka has been medicore since the new year and Dallas literally play better basketball without him so no.

[StrongLurk]

Luka has been medicore since the new year and Dallas literally play better basketball without him so no.

Good thing the entire year counts and not just a portion. Luka is top ten by every metric. He is certainly better than Lillard and CP3 this year.

[dbugz]

Let's not base it alone on the stat this season.

To make it simpler, if the goal is to win a championship next season, who would be the top 10 draft pick among the current players?

[Turbo Slayer]

Luka has been medicore since the new year and Dallas literally play better basketball without him so no.


Luka has been medicore since the new year

You can´t just pick and select what months you choose to judge a player. You have to include the whole season. In other words a larger sample size is needed.

The Mavericks are currently leading the league in Off Reg. (116.7). Luka Doncic has been the machine of that Dallas team. Do you honestly believe that the Mavericks would lead the league in Off Reg. if Luka wasn´t playing the whole season? Answer:No.

His On-Court Net Rtg is +6.5. Last year, he was negative 3.4. So not sure where you are getting at.

Luka have been medicore. Man what a terrible take.

Luka is averaging 41.7 points per 100 possessions.

[Manny98]

Good thing the entire year counts and not just a portion. Luka is top ten by every metric. He is certainly better than Lillard and CP3 this year.
CP3 plays defense and has his team at a higher seed than Luka. Doncic doesn't even come close to CP in terms of on court impact

I guess you could argue him being better than Lillard but that's it

[Manny98]

You can´t just pick and select what months you choose to judge a player. You have to include the whole season. In other words a larger sample size is needed.

The Mavericks are currently leading the league in Off Reg. (116.7). Luka Doncic has been the machine of that Dallas team. Do you honestly believe that the Mavericks would lead the league in Off Reg. if Luka wasn´t playing the whole season? Answer:No.

His On-Court Net Rtg is +6.5. Last year, he was negative 3.4. So not sure where you are getting at.

Luka have been medicore. Man what a terrible take.

Luka is averaging 41.7 points per 100 possessions.
And Dallas are 5 points better when Luka is off the court

His extremely ball dominant playstyle hinders his teammates and reduces the overall ceiling of his team. It's no coincidence that Porzingis started balling df out after Luka went down with an injury earlier this year

[Turbo Slayer]

And Dallas are 5 points better when Luka is off the court

His extremely ball dominant playstyle hinders his teammates and reduces the overall ceiling of his team. It's no coincidence that Porzingis started balling df out after Luka went down with an injury earlier this year

Yeah but you got to consider the quality of teammantes and how good is the competition? Is your star player playing with other starters or bench warmers?

Lets take look at the 2 man lineups including Luka and Porzingis. To keep it fair I decided to exclude lineups where Luka and Porzingis is together in.

I will do points scored against opponents.

Luka´s lineups scored 8.02 points against opposition.

Porzingis´s lineups scored 7.54 points against opposing teams.

Lineups with Luka in it posted a better point differential against opposition than Porzingis´s.

I also notice that you didn´t answer one of my points posted above about Is Luka medicore?

[Turbo Slayer]

Luka is evidently more valuable to the Dallas Mavericks then Porzingis is.

If we take the VORP of both players and multiply it by 2.70 you will get a stat called Wins Over Replacement. It means that X player is worth X number of wins.

Luka´s Wins Over Replacement is 13 wins.

Porzingis is only worth 4 wins.

Keep in mind that I rounded it up to the nearest whole number to make things easier to comprehend.

[Turbo Slayer]

And Dallas are 5 points better when Luka is off the court

His extremely ball dominant playstyle hinders his teammates and reduces the overall ceiling of his team. It's no coincidence that Porzingis started balling df out after Luka went down with an injury earlier this year

I found another hole in your argument. If Luka´s playstyle ¨hinders¨ the whole team then why some of LeBron James´s teams produced some of the best offenses in the Playoffs alltime if his playstyle ¨hinders¨ teams.

Care to refute? :rockon:

[MrFonzworth]

You can´t just pick and select what months you choose to judge a player. You have to include the whole season. In other words a larger sample size is needed.

The Mavericks are currently leading the league in Off Reg. (116.7). Luka Doncic has been the machine of that Dallas team. Do you honestly believe that the Mavericks would lead the league in Off Reg. if Luka wasn´t playing the whole season? Answer:No.

His On-Court Net Rtg is +6.5. Last year, he was negative 3.4. So not sure where you are getting at.

Luka have been medicore. Man what a terrible take.

Luka is averaging 41.7 points per 100 possessions.

Oh God this nerd Turbo Stats and his numbers:facepalm

[AlternativeAcc.]

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Harden
4. Kawhit
5. Giannis
6. Klay Thompson
7. Luka
8. Jokic
9. AD (elevated by LeBron)
10. PG

[HakeemAlHilm]

Luka has been medicore since the new year and Dallas literally play better basketball without him so no.

THIS

The net rating lineups dont lie

That starting lineup performs better without him. Their ORTG goes down by 2 (from 119 to 117) but their DRTG jumps to top 5 in the league.

Lukas teams are literally tailor made for him to put up numbers with no regard for winning. 5 out offense and as ball dominant as anyone ever was. He has the biggest greenlight in the history of the game. It puts up nice regular season offensive numbers but as seen in their 94 ORTG in crunch time its not sustainable and gets shut down against playoff defense

We're going to see alot of players attempting to model after the ball dominance of the Hardens, Lebrons, CP3s, but who aren't nearly as impactful soon. Its already started with Trae and Luka

[HakeemAlHilm]

My top 10

1. Giannis
2. Lebron
3. KD (when healthy)
4. Kawhi
5. Harden
6. Curry
7. Lillard
8. Embiid
9. Jokic
10. Westbrook

[Axe]

1. LeBron
2. KD (healthy)
3. Giannis
4. Kawhi
5. Curry (healthy)
6. Harden
7. AD
8. CP3
9. Kyrie (healthy)
10. Lillard

Honourable mentions:

Westbrook
Jokic
PG
EmChoke
Wait a minute... So #2 has actually played during the season in a nets uniform already? Let me check.

Oh I don't see any playing minutes at all... other than just more than six months of spending his time in rehabilitation, of course.

[PeroAntic]

Lillard has no case for top 10

[Real Men Wear Green]

How does anyone exclude Doncic?

[Whoah10115]

How does anyone exclude Doncic?

To be honest you're right.

And to be honest, I'd take him ahead of Davis. But I can't say Doncic has already surpassed Lillard. Westbrook maybe.

[Manny98]

How does anyone exclude Doncic?
Because he's not, don't be fooled by the pretty numbers

His overall on court impact is not close to top 10

[Manny98]

Lillard has no case for top 10
Neither does Rose :oldlol:

[Real Men Wear Green]

Because he's not, don't be fooled by the pretty numbers

His overall on court impact is not close to top 10
You say this while listing Kyrie Irving, whose only argument is numbers that aren't as good as Doncic's. You should argue with yourself.

[Manny98]

You say this while listing Kyrie Irving, whose only argument is numbers that aren't as good as Doncic's. You should argue with yourself.
Kyrie is better than Doncic at literally every facet of basketball

Kyrie would average 40ppg and 10 assists if he got to dominate the ball as much as Doncic and pad his stats.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Kyrie is better than Doncic at literally every facet of basketball

Kyrie would average 40ppg and 10 assists if he got to dominate the ball as much as Doncic and pad his stats.
The only reason that saying Irvingcan rebound like Doncic isn't laughable is that it isn't funny. But I will laugh at the idea that Irving doesn't dominate theball himself. The Celtics almost have 4 20ppg scorers with him gone. No one gets numbers like Doncic or Irving without dominating the ball.

Edit: Irving could not do more if he wanted to. his body can't take the strain of what he's doing now, so how will he do more and stay healthy? To have him in next season's playoffs he'll have to load manage down to 30 miniues and take 20 games off. No back to backs.

[Phoenix]

Kyrie is better than Doncic at literally every facet of basketball

Kyrie would average 40ppg and 10 assists if he got to dominate the ball as much as Doncic and pad his stats.

Lebron had a teammate capable of that? Wow.

Anyways, don't be dumb. Better at every aspect of basketball? Are we ignoring passing and rebounding? Also, Kyrie has yet to prove he's more than a weapon to deploy. He's not a leader. There's a reason his run in Boston was short and that the Celtics are a better team this year, Tatum and Brown are better, in spite of Kemba being a diet coke version of Kyrie in terms of talent. Boston was worse last year with Kyrie than the prior year when they got up to a few minutes of an NBA finals appearance. He has all-time level skills but doesn't have the intangibles to lead a team. There's absolutely no way the Mavericks would be better with Kyrie than with Luka.

[Manny98]

Lebron had a teammate capable of that? Wow.

Anyways, don't be dumb. Better at every aspect of basketball? Are we ignoring passing and rebounding? Also, Kyrie has yet to prove he's more than a weapon to deploy. He's not a leader. There's a reason his run in Boston was short and that the Celtics are a better team this year, Tatum and Brown are better, in spite of Kemba being a diet coke version of Kyrie in terms of talent. Boston was worse last year with Kyrie than the prior year when they got up to a few minutes of an NBA finals appearance. He has all-time level skills but doesn't have the intangibles to lead a team. There's absolutely no way the Mavericks would be better with Kyrie than with Luka.
Dallas would be ABSOLUTELY better without Doncic monopolizing the entire offense and reducing everyone to ball watching

Dallas have by far the best bench in the league and like I said on the first page Porzingis went on an absolute tear as soon as Doncic went down with his ankle injury, I'm pretty sure Dallas went 6-2 in that stretch as well

[Manny98]

The only reason that saying Irvingcan rebound like Doncic isn't laughable is that it isn't funny. But I will laugh at the idea that Irving doesn't dominate theball himself. The Celtics almost have 4 20ppg scorers with him gone. No one gets numbers like Doncic or Irving without dominating the ball.

Edit: Irving could not do more if he wanted to. his body can't take the strain of what he's doing now, so how will he do more and stay healthy? To have him in next season's playoffs he'll have to load manage down to 30 miniues and take 20 games off. No back to backs.

Irving has been to the finals multiple times and has performed greatly in high pressure moments whilst Doncic has the worst clutch stats in the entire NBA amongst stars and runs out of gas 3 months into the season:oldlol:

[Real Men Wear Green]

Dallas would be ABSOLUTELY better without Doncic monopolizing the entire offense and reducing everyone to ball watching

Dallas have by far the best bench in the league and like I said on the first page Porzingis went on an absolute tear as soon as Doncic went down with his ankle injury, I'm pretty sure Dallas went 6-2 in that stretch as well
https://www.fanduel.com/theduel/posts/mavericks-record-without-luka-doncic-injury-01dwaf6qpqkr

And you really wamt to talk about impact on wins and losses when you're defending Irving? I was intentionally not going to bring that up.

[superduper]

AD and Kawhi are 1a/1b neck and neck.

[Phoenix]

Dallas would be ABSOLUTELY better without Doncic monopolizing the entire offense and reducing everyone to ball watching

Dallas have by far the best bench in the league and like I said on the first page Porzingis went on an absolute tear as soon as Doncic went down with his ankle injury, I'm pretty sure Dallas went 6-2 in that stretch as well

For one, Dallas was like 4th seed IIRC at one point before he got injured. They're not going to be better than that as far as seeding with the Lakers, Clippers, Utah, Houston in the mix and OKC having a surprising campaign with a resurgent Cp3. Kyrie has never demonstrated any tangible difference in the w/l column and that's the comparison we're talking here. Unless you're arguing that Kyrie on the Mavs has them better positioned in which case I ask, based on what evidence?

Again, Boston was WORSE last year with him than without him in 2018, and better this year with Kemba as is their young core. There's no evidence he elevates a team in terms of W/Ls. He's a weapon you deploy to hold the fort or carry the offense for stretches, not a team over an 82 game season. Luka is absolutely, in season 2, proven more capable of being a lead player and therefore warrants being considered higher in a ranking list unless something other than wins and losses is being argued here.

[Phoenix]

Irving has been to the finals multiple times and has performed greatly in high pressure moments whilst Doncic has the worst clutch stats in the entire NBA amongst stars and runs out of gas 3 months into the season:oldlol:

You're one of the ones arguing that he was on the ride with Lebron in the drivers seat. Now 'he's been to the finals' is an arguing point? The one thing you have in your holster is that yes, Kyrie had some great finals series but again, he's not the guy that's gonna lead your team there.

[Manny98]

You're one of the ones arguing that he was on the ride with Lebron in the drivers seat. Now 'he's been to the finals' is an arguing point? The one thing you have in your holster is that yes, Kyrie had some great finals series but again, he's not the guy that's gonna lead your team there.
Neither is Doncic

Dallas are only the 7th seed despite having the best bench in the league and Porzingis as the second option. Dallas have underachieved massively this season

[Phoenix]

Neither is Doncic

Dallas are only the 7th seed despite having the best bench in the league and Porzingis as the second option. Dallas have underachieved massively this season

Based on what? One season and a half of play? Both Porzingis and Luka missed games and they have the same number of wins (40) as Houston and OKC and one less than Utah. They'd be right in the thick of the top 4 seed race otherwise.

My question is, what has Kyrie demonstrated as far as leading a team? The only evidence we have is making the Celtics worse. There's no reason to think the Mavs would be better off with him. Absolutely zero.

[Manny98]

Based on what? One season and a half of play? Both Porzingis and Luka missed games and they have the same number of wins (40) as Houston and OKC and one less than Utah. They'd be right in the thick of the top 4 seed race otherwise.

My question is, what has Kyrie demonstrated as far as leading a team? The only evidence we have is making the Celtics worse. There's no reason to think the Mavs would be better off with him. Absolutely zero.
Kyrie literally carried Boston to 55 wins and the second seed in the East not to long ago :facepalm

Kyrie is a proven leader, Doncic not so much

[Real Men Wear Green]

Kyrie literally carried Boston to 55 wins and the second seed in the East not to long ago :facepalm

Kyrie is a proven leader, Doncic not so much

How the heck does he carry the celtics to 55 wins in a season where he only played 60 games? Just stop.

[Phoenix]

Kyrie literally carried Boston to 55 wins and the second seed in the East not to long ago :facepalm

Kyrie is a proven leader, Doncic not so much

1) He led them to 55 wins? He played 60 games and they were 41-19 with him. You're crediting him for the 14 wins he had zero part in?

2) The same year they make it to the conference finals led by a rookie Tatum and no Kyrie. The next year 'led' by Kyrie they lost in the 2nd round. Both Tatum and Brown regressed and rebounded this year playing with Kemba. Tatum made the all-star team.

So the team and some of their young prospects regressed from 2018 to 2019, and got better once he left. Kyrie proven leader of what, exactly? He's now playing for your Nets so whatever to convince yourself, I guess.

[tpols]

Dallas would be ABSOLUTELY better without Doncic monopolizing the entire offense and reducing everyone to ball watching

Dallas have by far the best bench in the league and like I said on the first page Porzingis went on an absolute tear as soon as Doncic went down with his ankle injury, I'm pretty sure Dallas went 6-2 in that stretch as well

the irony of bran stans like simon talking about ball dominance and reducing teammates. :facepalm

[Manny98]

1) He led them to 55 wins? He played 60 games and they were 41-19 with him. You're crediting him for the 14 wins he had zero part in?

2) The same year they make it to the conference finals led by a rookie Tatum and no Kyrie. The next year 'led' by Kyrie they lost in the 2nd round. Both Tatum and Brown regressed and rebounded this year playing with Kemba. Tatum made the all-star team.

So the team and some of their young prospects regressed from 2018 to 2019, and got better once he left. Kyrie proven leader of what, exactly? He's now playing for your Nets so whatever to convince yourself, I guess.
41-19 is still better than anything Doncic has ever done

[Phoenix]

41-19 is still better than anything Doncic has ever done

In 2018 the Celtics get to the conference finals WITHOUT KYRIE, Tatum is seen as a star on the rise along with Brown. In 2019, the team loses in the 2nd round WITH KYRIE and Tatum notably seemed to have regressed or at least not progressed when he was on the cusp of stardom off his rookie year. In 2020, the Celts show a much more cohesive unit, several stories out about how much better the locker room is, and Tatum makes the all-star team and emerges as we thought he would have last year. All I need from you is to stop doubling down on dumb, and explain why the Celtics improved this year once Kyrie left and where is this leadership by Kyrie demonstrated when the Celtics have proven better off without him. Simple question.

[Manny98]

In 2018 the Celtics get to the conference finals WITHOUT KYRIE, Tatum is seen as a star on the rise along with Brown. In 2019, the team loses in the 2nd round WITH KYRIE and Tatum notably seemed to have regressed or at least not progressed when he was on the cusp of stardom off his rookie year. In 2020, the Celts show a much more cohesive unit, several stories out about how much better the locker room is, and Tatum makes the all-star team and emerges as we thought he would have last year. All I need from you is to stop doubling down on dumb, and explain why the Celtics improved this year once Kyrie left and where is this leadership by Kyrie demonstrated when the Celtics have proven better off without him. Simple question.

Jalen & Tatum naturally got better with age and the Celtics had a lot of other issues last season with incorporating Hayward into the starting lineup and Kyrie dealing with stuff off the court.

I don't get why Kyrie gets all the blame for what went wrong last season when there was a whole host of other things going on. Even Tatum and other players have outright defended Kyrie to the media

[Phoenix]

Jalen & Tatum naturally got better with age and the Celtics had a lot of other issues last season with incorporating Hayward into the starting lineup and Kyrie dealing with stuff off the court.

I don't get why Kyrie gets all the blame for what went wrong last season when there was a whole host of other things going on. Even Tatum and other players have outright defended Kyrie to the media

So why didn't they 'get better with age' from 1st year to 2nd year? Weren't they older last year relative to the 2018 season? There were well-publicised 'finger-pointing' articles last year and as leader, it's on him to galvanise the troops so to speak. Still waiting to see this leadership you speak of. Again, you as a Bran stan have always downplayed Kyrie in order to prop up Lebron. Now he's this 'leader' apparently. Keep your narratives consistent.

[Manny98]

So why didn't they 'get better with age' from 1st year to 2nd year? Weren't they older last year relative to the 2018 season? There were well-publicised 'finger-pointing' articles last year and as leader, it's on him to galvanise the troops so to speak. Still waiting to see this leadership you speak of. Again, you as a Bran stan have always downplayed Kyrie in order to prop up Lebron. Now he's this 'leader' apparently. Keep your narratives consistent.

When have I ever downplayed Kyrie's greatness?

I'm not saying he's the best leader in the world but he's better than Doncic which he has proved in the 2017-18 season and even this season with the Nets

[Phoenix]

When have I ever downplayed Kyrie's greatness?

I'm not saying he's the best leader in the world but he's better than Doncic which he has proved in the 2017-18 season and even this season with the Nets

Everytime you downplay Lebron's teammates to prop him up. Don't act like I'm new around here and haven't seen your shtick. You didn't give a rat about Kyrie until he joined the Nets.