Hypothetically... LeBron...

[Shogon]

I know that it's not even remotely close to this simple and that certain things being a different way would have resulted in different subsequent seasons for the entire league and a straight up different reality for everyone for obvious reasons, HOWEVER... fun thought experiment here...

What if... LeBron's career played out exactly like it did for his Miami years... except...

In 2004-2010... he had a legitimate second option and he won 1 ring in Cleveland...

Then in 2015, Kyrie was healthy for the Finals... and Cleveland won a ring.

2016, they win the title...

Durant never decides to join Golden State, and Cleveland wins again in 2017.

Kyrie still leaves, and Cleveland wins again in 2018.

2019 is still the same, but in 2020 the Lakers win yet another ring.

That's... 8 rings.

Now, let me say... I personally don't think LeBron has proven he is the greatest player ever... and I don't think a higher ring count would change my mind on that. However, for most people, it would.

So if LeBron was at 8 rings after this 2020 season, would you have him as the GOAT? Do you think the consensus fan opinion would be that he's the GOAT? I think so. I think most of you would say he was the clear GOAT.

I just find it funny how circumstances can completely alter a player's legacy. This goes way deeper than LeBron, obviously. But he's just been rather unlucky quite a few times despite his collusion cheating in 2011-2014.

[brownmamba00]

8 rings

https://media.giphy.com/media/1d5Zn8FqmJqApu4hNU/giphy.gif

[tpols]

You wrote all that, and yet he's 2 shots away from having 1 ring and 8 finals losses.

*gulp*

[warriorfan]

LeBron’s real ring count: 0

2012 = .5 ring (lock out season vs 23 year old KD and Russ)
2013 = .5 ring (Ray Allen. Old spurs)
2011 = -1 ring (GOAT Choke, Jason Terry)
2016 = * (Adam Silver)

[Proctor]

https://media.giphy.com/media/gRI82qIDbHZPW/200.gif

Much closer to 0 than he is 8.

[Cleverness]

I just find it funny how circumstances can completely alter a player's legacy. This goes way deeper than LeBron, obviously. But he's just been rather unlucky quite a few times despite his collusion cheating in 2011-2014.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CAdUFNNlqY

i defended him when he played with trash in CLE pre-collusion era. top ~3 player i've ever seen by 2010

gave him half credit in miami and everything after that was meh

[AlternativeAcc.]

LeBron would still be GOAT without any rings..

Ring count is overrated in team sports, almost irrelevant. Unless you're a preposterous choker in the playoffs (wilt.. curry) then ring count shouldn't be a main talking point. LeBron is literally the most dominant regular AND postseason performer ever by a huge margin. He has by far the most impact of any player ever AND the best longevity of any athlete in history.

He's by far the GOAT and rings have nothing to do with it

/hottake

[TheCorporation]

LeBron would still be GOAT without any rings..

Ring count is overrated in team sports, almost irrelevant. Unless you're a preposterous choker in the playoffs (wilt.. curry) then ring count shouldn't be a main talking point. LeBron is literally the most dominant regular AND postseason performer ever by a huge margin. He has by far the most impact of any player ever AND the best longevity of any athlete in history.

He's by far the GOAT and rings have nothing to do with it

/hottake


Facts.

[STATUTORY]

bro u don't need to be sharing these erotic fantasies with us, save ur write ups for the Bronsexual section of literotica.net

[FireDavidKahn]

Pretty sound logic op:cheers:

[LAmbruh]

5 star

[FireDavidKahn]

lebron would still be goat without any rings..

Ring count is overrated in team sports, almost irrelevant. Unless you're a preposterous choker in the playoffs (wilt.. Curry) then ring count shouldn't be a main talking point. Lebron is literally the most dominant regular and postseason performer ever by a huge margin. He has by far the most impact of any player ever and the best longevity of any athlete in history.

He's by far the goat and rings have nothing to do with it

/hottake

call an ambulance, there's been a murder!!!!

[FireDavidKahn]

Holy shit this it's an OG account.

2006:bowdown:

#LeBronGoesBack

[SouBeachTalents]

Not winning should only matter if you didn't play well. LeBron doesn't need to win a title in '09, '17 or '18 to validate his greatness to me. He played at an ATG level that was more than good enough to win a championship under majority of circumstances. Meanwhile, he should be criticized for 2011 because his play was a significant factor for the Heat losing what was an extremely winnable series.

People seem absolutely incapable of separating the team result from the players performance. You can play phenomenally and lose, and you can play terribly and win. They are not always mutually exclusive

[SamuraiSWISH]

https://media.giphy.com/media/gRI82qIDbHZPW/200.gif

Much closer to 0 than he is 8.
:roll: :roll: :roll:


bro u don't need to be sharing these erotic fantasies with us, save ur write ups for the Bronsexual section of literotica.net

Lol Jesus he always delivers.

[Axe]

Not winning should only matter if you didn't play well. LeBron doesn't need to win a title in '09, '17 or '18 to validate his greatness to me. He played at an ATG level that was more than good enough to win a championship under majority of circumstances. Meanwhile, he should be criticized for 2011 because his play was a significant factor for the Heat losing what was an extremely winnable series.

People seem absolutely incapable of separating the team result from the players performance. You can play phenomenally and lose, and you can play terribly and win. They are not always mutually exclusive
Lmao just suddenly remembered that shaq said something about this.

[red1]

cant complain about bad luck when we got jesus himself aka ray allen. all we need is one more finals MVP and we will be insufferable.


and its coming. COVID19 is nature and silvers last attempt to stop the inevitable.

[GimmeThat]

I think had team USA gotten the Gold instead of Bronze in the 2004 Olympics. Mike Brown gets fired earlier, boosting Lebron's chance of staying in Cleveland.

[guy]

Pretty convenient to just attribute him not having as many rings to circumstance and bad luck.

Lets ignore:

- He's had his fair share of great circumstances
- Its not like other greats always had great circumstances for their whole career
- There's been parts of his game and personality at times in his career that makes it harder to build around him relatively speaking
- He's had all-time chokes that have cost him a season
- If he didn't start the player-formed super team era, KD probably never joins GS
- 2 of his 3 titles come from incredibly luck and fortunate circumstances - the biggest shot in NBA history from Ray and Draymond's suspension

If he had another great player in his first time in Cleveland, there's no guarantee they get past San Antonio, Boston, or LA. In fact, I don't think they do. If people think he's ball-dominant now, he was off the charts before he went to Miami. Add in he was younger and more immature - lets say Cleveland managed to draft someone like Chris Paul and team them up together from 06 to 10. I don't see how that much is different. Maybe they beat the Magic in 09, but I would still think they lose to the Lakers in 09

If Kyrie doesn't get hurt in 2015, there's no guarantee the Cavs beat the Warriors. The Warriors were better then the Cavs the entire 2015 season and as largely the same teams, they were better the entire 2016 season. Same thing applies to if KD never joins the Warriors. There's not even a guarantee the Cavs beat whoever comes out of the West those years if the Warriors don't. I wouldn't pick the 2018 Cavs over the 2018 Rockets for example.

And there's no guarantee he would've won this year. Nobody would've been surprised if the Clippers or even the Bucks beat them. You could argue just as much that Lebron was fortunate the season ended cause there was probably just as much of a chance, if not a better chance, he would've lost - but instead of losing being the reason he didn't win this year, its COVID-19.

[andgar923]

Pretty convenient to just attribute him not having as many rings to circumstance and bad luck.

Lets ignore:

- He's had his fair share of great circumstances
- Its not like other greats always had great circumstances for their whole career
- There's been parts of his game and personality at times in his career that makes it harder to build around him relatively speaking
- He's had all-time chokes that have cost him a season
- If he didn't start the player-formed super team era, KD probably never joins GS
- 2 of his 3 titles come from incredibly luck and fortunate circumstances - the biggest shot in NBA history from Ray and Draymond's suspension

If he had another great player in his first time in Cleveland, there's no guarantee they get past San Antonio, Boston, or LA. In fact, I don't think they do. If people think he's ball-dominant now, he was off the charts before he went to Miami. Add in he was younger and more immature - lets say Cleveland managed to draft someone like Chris Paul and team them up together from 06 to 10. I don't see how that much is different. Maybe they beat the Magic in 09, but I would still think they lose to the Lakers in 09

If Kyrie doesn't get hurt in 2015, there's no guarantee the Cavs beat the Warriors. The Warriors were better then the Cavs the entire 2015 season and as largely the same teams, they were better the entire 2016 season. Same thing applies to if KD never joins the Warriors. There's not even a guarantee the Cavs beat whoever comes out of the West those years if the Warriors don't. I wouldn't pick the 2018 Cavs over the 2018 Rockets for example.

And there's no guarantee he would've won this year. Nobody would've been surprised if the Clippers or even the Bucks beat them. You could argue just as much that Lebron was fortunate the season ended cause there was probably just as much of a chance, if not a better chance, he would've lost - but instead of losing being the reason he didn't win this year, its COVID-19.

I didn't finish reading the whole thing but I appreciate the excellent formatting.

[Turbo Slayer]

- He's had his fair share of great circumstances
- Its not like other greats always had great circumstances for their whole career
- There's been parts of his game and personality at times in his career that makes it harder to build around him relatively speaking
- He's had all-time chokes that have cost him a season
- If he didn't start the player-formed super team era, KD probably never joins GS
- 2 of his 3 titles come from incredibly luck and fortunate circumstances - the biggest shot in NBA history from Ray and Draymond's suspension

If Kyrie doesn't get hurt in 2015, there's no guarantee the Cavs beat the Warriors. The Warriors were better then the Cavs the entire 2015 season and as largely the same teams, they were better the entire 2016 season. Same thing applies to if KD never joins the Warriors. There's not even a guarantee the Cavs beat whoever comes out of the West those years if the Warriors don't. I wouldn't pick the 2018 Cavs over the 2018 Rockets for example.

And there's no guarantee he would've won this year. Nobody would've been surprised if the Clippers or even the Bucks beat them. You could argue just as much that Lebron was fortunate the season ended cause there was probably just as much of a chance, if not a better chance, he would've lost - but instead of losing being the reason he didn't win this year, its COVID-19.


Its not like other greats always had great circumstances for their whole career Michael Jordan never had to face a super-team (fact) and had 2 years of rest by playing baseball. (fact, also) Michael Jordan had plenty of great circumstances. You are sort of lying there my friend.


There's been parts of his game and personality at times in his career that makes it harder to build around him relatively speaking I love that you dont back your claims with pure factual evidence. This quote of yours makes no sense. If he was "hard" to build around with, then why LeBron leads historically great offenses in the Playoffs? Answer my question. :cheers:


He's had all-time chokes that have cost him a season Yep. You are correct there.


If he didn't start the player-formed super team era, KD probably never joins GS Yes, you are partly correct. But you are conveniently ignoring the fact that the Celtics started the super-team trend in the modern era. So you're wrong. :cheers:


If he had another great player in his first time in Cleveland, there's no guarantee they get past San Antonio, Boston, or LA. In fact, I don't think they do. If people think he's ball-dominant now, he was off the charts before he went to Miami. Add in he was younger and more immature - lets say Cleveland managed to draft someone like Chris Paul and team them up together from 06 to 10. I don't see how that much is different. Maybe they beat the Magic in 09, but I would still think they lose to the Lakers in 09

If Kyrie doesn't get hurt in 2015, there's no guarantee the Cavs beat the Warriors. The Warriors were better then the Cavs the entire 2015 season and as largely the same teams, they were better the entire 2016 season. Same thing applies to if KD never joins the Warriors. There's not even a guarantee the Cavs beat whoever comes out of the West those years if the Warriors don't. I wouldn't pick the 2018 Cavs over the 2018 Rockets for example.
You are speaking in complete generalities.

[ArbitraryWater]

we all know bar injuries and refs bron wins 15+18(playing the paul-less rockets in the finals)

would be adding #6 this year

mj bar injuries and refs would be at 5 (no 98), maybe even 4(no 93).

ring counters expose the idiots/sheep of societies.

the world isnt a simple place, but these complexities/outside the box stuff seperate us.

[guy]

Michael Jordan never had to face a super-team (fact) and had 2 years of rest by playing baseball. (fact, also) Michael Jordan had plenty of great circumstances. You are sort of lying there my friend.

How am I lying? Where did I say Jordan or any other great also didn't have their fair share of great circumstances? Point is it wasn't perfect. You're asking for too much if you expect every player's circumstance to be perfect. Everyone considers the 80s Celtics as super-teams so you're wrong. The 97 Rockets were also considered a superteam and the Bulls beat the team that beat them.

How is retiring for 2 years in the middle of your prime a great circumstance? Those were chances to stack up his resume, add more legendary moments and display greater play at a younger, more athletic age. We can argue all day how much it was a benefit to him, but you're being completely dishonest if you can't acknowledge the drawbacks.



I love that you dont back your claims with pure factual evidence. This quote of yours makes no sense. If he was "hard" to build around with, then why LeBron leads historically great offenses in the Playoffs? Answer my question. :cheers:
Well first off, he has rarely shown he's that coachable and has tried to play de facto coach himself. Him not having much respect for his coaches trickles down to his teammate. How many championship teams in history have operated that way?

He's been an incredibly ball-dominant wing, which historically doesn't win as many championships as the teams that preach more ball movement such as the 80s Lakers, 80s Celtics, 90s Bulls, 00s Lakers, 00s-10s Spurs, 10s Warriors, etc.

Only for a few years of his career, he and his teams were elite defensively, and alot of that has to do with his teams slacking off on that end during the regular season and building bad habits in the process - as the leader, hard to expect his teams to fall in line he himself was not consistently vocal about defense and/or elite defensively himself.

For multiple seasons of his career, 2010, 2014, and 2018 specifically, he's basically played with one foot out of the door because his lack of a committment to his team and his impending free agency has been such a distraction. In 2010 against the Celtics and 2014 against the Spurs, despite the revisionist history those were considered totally winnable series going in that was clouded by his eventual departure. Prior to the 2018 season, it was part of the reason Kyrie wanted out.

With that said, I did say relatively speaking. He's obviously an ATG and there's not that many you would pick over to try to build a championship team. Just saying, alot of his circumstances not being as great as people think they should've been is partly self-inflicted.



Yes, you are partly correct. But you are conveniently ignoring the fact that the Celtics started the super-team trend in the modern era. So you're wrong. :cheers:

I said "player-formed". A top 3 player going to join another top 3 player through free agency was unprecedented. He normalized it.



You are speaking in complete generalities.
Not sure what your point is here. OP brought up all these scenarios as if it wasn't even debatable that it would work out in Lebron's favor or not. They are highly debatable.

[guy]

we all know bar injuries and refs bron wins 15+18(playing the paul-less rockets in the finals)

No we don't. And I'm pretty sure CP was expected to be back by the finals if they won (maybe I'm wrong here.)



mj bar injuries and refs would be at 5 (no 98), maybe even 4(no 93).


I have an idea of what you're talking about here, but not sure. Either way, there was no injury or issues with refs that shifted those series that much to make that claim, especially when neither went 7.

[ArbitraryWater]

No we don't. And I'm pretty sure CP was expected to be back by the finals if they won (maybe I'm wrong here.)



I have an idea of what you're talking about here, but not sure. Either way, there was no injury or issues with refs that shifted those series that much to make that claim, especially when neither went 7.

I'm going by probabilities here.

Its obvious that the 5-point swing in the 98 game would have resulted in a Jazz win who were already leading, and they'd have been the clear favorites for game 7 with a hobbled Pippen.

[guy]

I'm going by probabilities here.

Its obvious that the 5-point swing in the 98 game would have resulted in a Jazz win who were already leading, and they'd have been the clear favorites for game 7 with a hobbled Pippen.

No its not obvious at all. The rest of the game doesn't just go on the same exact way with those being the only differences - you do actually watch basketball games right? The Howard Eisley 3 took place in the beginning of the 2nd quarter. Thats plenty of time for the Bulls to slightly change their approach/Jazz slightly relax their approach and for the Bulls to still make up ground. The Ron Harper shot was in the beginning of the 4th and even that is plenty of time plus it wasn't nearly as controversial of a play - the Eisley call was definitely bad, but while the Harper shot should've been a violation it was definitely close and blown calls/no calls like that happen regularly. Its one thing if this was the very end of the game i.e. Ray Allen's 2013 shot for example, where the opportunity to make up for it is almost non-existant. Either way, you can go through any game and find bad calls/no calls including more from this one and make this complaint.

Pippen was already hobbled in game 6 anyway. No one in their right mind who watched back then is betting on Karl Malone to close out a Finals game 7 over Michael Jordan no matter the situation. While he's great, probably a top 20 player of all-time, he's probably the James Harden of his era. If Jordan was going up against Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, etc. maybe I'd agree, but he wasn't.

You clearly didn't watch back then, otherwise you wouldn't be relying on probabilities here. And even if you did, given all of the points above, the Bulls still have way too many realistic chances to close out that series to bet against them.