If MVP's were always given to the best player how many woukd mj, kobe and bron have?

[Bronbron23]

With all due respect to bron, nash and dirk i have kobe as the best player from 05 to 10 so thats 5 MVP's. I realize bron has a legitimate argument for a couple of those but i just think that at that time kobe was a better player even though Brons stats were better. Not by much mind you but i feel like at that time if they were to hook up in the playoffs kobe would come put on top.

Bron has been the best player since 2010 with the exeption of the last 2 years when he was hurt and now because the season isnt finished so thats 8 MVP's.

I dont have mj as the best player until the 89 season. If pip wasnt a punk those playoffs i think bulls maybe win the chip. So i have mj as the mvp from 89 to 92 and then 95 to 97 so thats 7 MVP's.

I realize these are subjective and people wont agree but what do u guys have? You could probably throw bird and magic into thw mix. It be interesting to see who has bird over magic during the 80's.

[deathawaitu]

With this rule/logic

Kobe should have around 5-6 MVP

Lebron current 4 MVP sounds about right, definitely not 8 suggested by OP. Lebron wasn't the best player anymore since 2015. Top 5 for sure though

[warriorfan]

He gets a LVP for 2011

[Manny98]

Kobe wasn't the best player in 05 he missed the playoffs FFS

And no way in hell was he better than LeBron in 09

06 was the only year where Kobe has a case for BITW but I would argue Wade & Dirk were better that year

Jordan was the best in 90,91,92,93,96,97 so 7 years

LeBron was the best in 09,10,11,12,13,14,16,17,18, so 9 years

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan: 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 96, 97, 98 - 10x
LeBron: 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 - 9x
Kobe: 06, 07, 08, 09 - 4x

[RRR3]

Jordan: 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 96, 97, 98 - 10x
LeBron: 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 - 9x
Kobe: 06, 07, 08, 09 - 4x
Kobe being better than LeBron in 09 is hilarious.

[TheCorporation]

I'll make this quick and simple. You aren't an MVP if you don't win games. What's your value if you are an 8th seed?

Please think and try again

[RRR3]

I'll make this quick and simple. You aren't an MVP if you don't win games. What's your value if you are an 8th seed?

Please think and try again
This is very false. I don't care how they traditionally vote for MVPs, a guy on an 8th seeded team could easily be the most valuable player in the league.

[TheCorporation]

This is very false. I don't care how they traditionally vote for MVPs, a guy on an 8th seeded team could easily be the most valuable player in the league.
Never. That's why they are an 8th seed..

No VALUE.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe being better than LeBron in 09 is hilarious.
Really? Because there was arguments specifically that year and the next of who was better. And Kobe was the one winning titles each of those years.

It's obvious you weren't even watching ball back then.

I thought I was being more than FAIR giving Kobe 2009, and LeBron 2010. Even though he came up massively short of expectations. Remember? He quit mid series when Delonte was pounding out moms, and they were favorites to advance in the series and visibly quit when the series was winnable at 2-2.

Meanwhile Kobe mushroom tip slapped the Nuggets, and then ended the Magic 4 games to 1, the same team that sent Bron packing for the summer.

[StrongLurk]

MJ would have like 10. Kobe would only have three (05-06 season through 07-08 season). Lebron would also have like 10.

[ArbitraryWater]

Really? Because there was arguments specifically that year and the next of who was better. And Kobe was the one winning titles each of those years.

It's obvious you weren't even watching ball back then.

I thought I was being more than FAIR giving Kobe 2009, and LeBron 2010. Even though he came up massively short of expectations. Remember? He quit mid series when Delonte was pounding out moms, and they were favorites to advance in the series and visibly quit when the series was winnable at 2-2.

Meanwhile Kobe mushroom tip slapped the Nuggets, and then ended the Magic 4 games to 1, the same team that sent Bron packing for the summer.

Oh he "ended the Magic 4 games to 1" doing what? Doing everything worse than LeBron did, ahooting 33% in the 4th quarters like the choker he is, becoming the lowest shooting FMVP of all time, until he would top himself next year, relying on Courtney Lee missing game winning layups?

Meanwhile Bron is rolling off 50 pointers, 40 pt triple doubles, 20 straight points barrages, and game winning buzzer beaters.

Strong stuff, you dumb fukk

You celebrate a fraud, proving how low IQ you are.

[SouBeachTalents]

We really giving Kobe EVERY season from 06-10 :lol

This is where his name being thrown in with Jordan & LeBron all the time changes the perspective. He simply never had a run where he was the clear best player in the world like LeBron & Jordan did.

When do I think he established himself at that level: '08

When else would he have a legitimate argument: '06 & '07

When else could he have been argued: '09 & '10, although I would really disagree with this

06-08 is definitely reasonable, but Wade/Duncan/Dirk would all have legitimate arguments to be put over him for either '06 or '07

[And1AllDay]

Kobe from 2002 to 2009
LeBron from 2009 to 2019

[Bronbron23]

We really giving Kobe EVERY season from 06-10 :lol

This is where his name being thrown in with Jordan & LeBron all the time changes the perspective. He simply never had a run where he was the clear best player in the world like LeBron & Jordan did.

When do I think he established himself at that level: '08

When else would he have a legitimate argument: '06 & '07

When else could he have been argued: '09 & '10, although I would really disagree with this

06-08 is definitely reasonable, but Wade/Duncan/Dirk would all have legitimate arguments to be put over him for either '06 or '07

I am yeah. He was in god mode at that point. Lebron had some seasons better statistically but you really cant compare stats between a player playing in the triangle and a player whos a point gaurd in a system where hes the system. Go back and watch how mj and kobe were used in the triangle. Half the time the system didn't call for them to dominate the ball and score or facilitate. It called for them to move the ball and move off ball. If bron played in the triangle his whole career his stats would be less than what they are.

That said its not like im dissing bron. I gave him more mvps than kobe and mj.

[And1AllDay]

I am yeah. He was in god mode at that point. Lebron had some seasons better statistically but you really cant compare stats between a player playing in the triangle and a player whos a point gaurd in a system where hes the system. Go back and watch how mj and kobe were used in the triangle. Half the time the system didn't call for them to dominate the ball and score or facilitate. It called for them to move the ball and move off ball. If bron played in the triangle his whole career his stats would be less than what they are.

That said its not like im dissing bron. I gave him more mvps than kobe and mj.

this guys names is bronbron but all he does is hate on him and prop kobe and mike

your funny bruh :oldlol:

[Axe]

I'll make this quick and simple. You aren't an MVP if you don't win games. What's your value if you are an 8th seed?

Please think and try again
The biggest reason why lbj wasn't the mvp last season? Yeah right.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Bronbron23]

this guys names is bronbron but all he does is hate on him and prop kobe and mike

your funny bruh :oldlol:

How is giving bron more MVP's than kobe and mj hating on him you flicking tard :facepalm

[And1AllDay]

How is giving bron more MVP's than kobe and mj hating on him you flicking tard :facepalm

i love kobe but how can you put him over bron in 09 an 10? lebrons 09 is his best statistical season ever bruh

you got caught

[RRR3]

09 is often listed as LeBron's peak. If you think Kobe was better than peak LeBron, that's on you. LeBron led a bunch of bums to 66 wins. More than Kobe and he had peak Pau Gasol, Odom and Bynum. LeBron eviscerated the Magic in the playoffs, if you honestly think it's his fault Mo Williams ****ing sucked, that's pretty funny.

[Bronbron23]

i love kobe but how can you put him over bron in 09 an 10? lebrons 09 is his best statistical season ever bruh

you got caught

You just ssid it. His best statistical season. Better stats dont always mean better. Westbrook and harden have had crazy statistical seasons but neither have ever been close to the best players in the league.

And its not like im saying kobe was wsy better. It was very close but at that tine id give the edge to kobe.

[Bronbron23]

09 is often listed as LeBron's peak. If you think Kobe was better than peak LeBron, that's on you. LeBron led a bunch of bums to 66 wins. More than Kobe and he had peak Pau Gasol, Odom and Bynum. LeBron eviscerated the Magic in the playoffs, if you honestly think it's his fault Mo Williams ****ing sucked, that's pretty funny.

I dont consider 09 brons peak. I bet he dosnt either.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yeah... The only years I have Lebron definitely over Kobe are from 2010-2016.

Before that? 2009 Kobe had an argument just like Wade. Bean didn't have the stats Lebron did, but he didn't need to. Kobe played winning basketball on an ELITE championship team.

And his impact was probably the best of anyone in the playoffs
https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/season/2008-09/playoffs/

2006-2008 was Kobe's league imo.

[Bronbron23]

09 is often listed as LeBron's peak. If you think Kobe was better than peak LeBron, that's on you. LeBron led a bunch of bums to 66 wins. More than Kobe and he had peak Pau Gasol, Odom and Bynum. LeBron eviscerated the Magic in the playoffs, if you honestly think it's his fault Mo Williams ****ing sucked, that's pretty funny.

And honestly the fact that you think 09 is brons peak because of his stats just shows how much you dont understand about ball. Who was on his team then? He was way better in miami but his stats weren't as good because he had 2 hall of famers on his team.

Mj had crazy statistical seasons in the late 80's when he had no help and losing but he was much better in the early 90's when hus stats were a bit less but he had help and winning. This is basic common sense dude.

[And1AllDay]

And honestly the fact that you think 09 is brons peak because of his stats just shows how much you dont understand about ball. Who was on his team then? He was way better in miami but his stats weren't as good because he had 2 hall of famers on his team.

Mj had crazy statistical seasons in the late 80's when he had no help and losing but he was much better in the early 90's when hus stats were a bit less but he had help and winning. This is basic common sense dude.

playoff lebrons ws/48 in 2009 was higher than peak MJ ...


.399 WS/48 after 14 game (3 rounds)

mike best was 91 .333

[SamuraiSWISH]

I am yeah. He was in god mode at that point. Lebron had some seasons better statistically but you really cant compare stats between a player playing in the triangle and a player whos a point gaurd in a system where hes the system. Go back and watch how mj and kobe were used in the triangle. Half the time the system didn't call for them to dominate the ball and score or facilitate. It called for them to move the ball and move off ball. If bron played in the triangle his whole career his stats would be less than what they are.

That said its not like im dissing bron. I gave him more mvps than kobe and mj.
I agree with everything until the bold. Like if the MVP was exclusively best player, there's no way MJ gets hosed out of 87, 89, 90, 93, 97. And that's with him literally missing the last two years of his physical prime :oldlol:


And honestly the fact that you think 09 is brons peak because of his stats just shows how much you dont understand about ball. Who was on his team then? He was way better in miami but his stats weren't as good because he had 2 hall of famers on his team.

Mj had crazy statistical seasons in the late 80's when he had no help and losing but he was much better in the early 90's when hus stats were a bit less but he had help and winning. This is basic common sense dude.
He's a dork. If you'd ever seen his ISH pic you'd know. He was a baseball guy. Pure calculator and pocket protector statistician nerd.

[Axe]

09 is often listed as LeBron's peak. If you think Kobe was better than peak LeBron, that's on you. LeBron led a bunch of bums to 66 wins. More than Kobe and he had peak Pau Gasol, Odom and Bynum. LeBron eviscerated the Magic in the playoffs, if you honestly think it's his fault Mo Williams ****ing sucked, that's pretty funny.
Too bad mike brown couldn't lead them to another finals appearance during that time, especially when that team holds the homecourt advantage throughout the playoffs that year.

Unless they were only able to go in the finals two years prior because they had eric snow then. I mean his defensive style could have helped them. Who knows.

[RRR3]

Not hearing any reasons why LeBron wasn't the best in 2009 lol.

Not interested in hearing them from racist subhuman IQ's like coach either. The man couldn't explain anything to a turtle.

[guy]

Jordan: 9 (88-93, 96-98)
Kobe: 5 (06-10)
Lebron: 7 (12-18)

And the revisionist history is really getting out of hand - people here acting like saying Kobe was better in 09 and 10 is some outlandish claim. No one felt that way at the time. It was very much an argument. And I would give Kobe the edge just cause he was mentally tougher and didn't require dominating the ball so much so he could play in a more championship winning style - that doesn't show up in the box score and a bunch of regular season wins.

[RRR3]

Not sure what people watched when they try to act like Kobe wasn't ball dominant.

[Axe]

Not hearing any reasons why LeBron wasn't the best in 2009 lol.

Not interested in hearing them from racist subhuman IQ's like coach either. The man couldn't explain anything to a turtle.
Lmao cool story bro.

[brownmamba00]

Half of these dudes started watching the league in 2011

[Axe]

Half of these dudes started watching the league in 2011
Can't deny that 8 straight finals appearances by a lone, franchise star ain't half bad.

[Overdrive]

Never. That's why they are an 8th seed..

No VALUE.

Wrong. A player that elevates his team from a 55 win 3rd seed to a 57 first seed in a weak conference doesn't have more impact than a player who elevates his team from a 17 win last seed to a 50 win 8th seed.


That said Kobe was never the clear cut bitw imo. There was always a guy in the very season that was just as good as him or better. Not talking about playoffs, because they don't count for MVPs, but strictly speaking about his best RS campaigns you could always argue another guy.

Jordan, Shaq and Lebron were clear cut for some or most years in their prime from the players I've seen live.

Still Kobe would have more if seeding didn't count, because obviously voters would give him more votes if it was a showdown between the 3 best players regardles of standings. I'd say he would've squeezed out 2 other MVPs, but might've lost his actual MVP.

[RRR3]

Lmao cool story bro.
Coach isn't referring to you, lol. It's samuraiswish, who has a history of being a racist idiot (ironic considering his favorite human being of all time is MJ)

[Axe]

Coach isn't referring to you, lol. It's samuraiswish, who has a history of being a racist idiot (ironic considering his favorite human being of all time is MJ)
Oh my bad. Hahahaha 😹

[RRR3]

Wrong. A player that elevates his team from a 55 win 3rd seed to a 57 first seed in a weak conference doesn't have more impact than a player who elevates his team from a 17 win last seed to a 50 win 8th seed.


That said Kobe was never the clear cut bitw imo. There was always a guy in the very season that was just as good as him or better. Not talking about playoffs, because they don't count for MVPs, but strictly speaking about his best RS campaigns you could always argue another guy.

Jordan, Shaq and Lebron were clear cut for some or most years in their prime from the players I've seen live.

Still Kobe would have more if seeding didn't count, because obviously voters would give him more votes if it was a showdown between the 3 best players regardles of standings. I'd say he would've squeezed out 2 other MVPs, but might've lost his actual MVP.
He won't listen, he wants to diminish MJ for seasons in which he was a low seed.

[RRR3]

Oh my bad. Hahahaha ��
It's all good. Are you a coach?

[SouBeachTalents]

Wrong. A player that elevates his team from a 55 win 3rd seed to a 57 first seed in a weak conference doesn't have more impact than a player who elevates his team from a 17 win last seed to a 50 win 8th seed.


That said Kobe was never the clear cut bitw imo. There was always a guy in the very season that was just as good as him or better. Not talking about playoffs, because they don't count for MVPs, but strictly speaking about his best RS campaigns you could always argue another guy.

Jordan, Shaq and Lebron were clear cut for some or most years in their prime from the players I've seen live.

Still Kobe would have more if seeding didn't count, because obviously voters would give him more votes if it was a showdown between the 3 best players regardles of standings. I'd say he would've squeezed out 2 other MVPs, but might've lost his actual MVP.
Exactly. '03 McGrady & '06/'07 Kobe & '09/'10 Wade dragging dumpster fires to the playoffs is an impressive achievement. You simply aren't winning more than 45-50 games with those kinds of rosters, no matter who you are

[RRR3]

Exactly. '03 McGrady & '06/'07 Kobe & '09/'10 Wade dragging dumpster fires to the playoffs is an impressive achievement. You simply aren't winning more than 45-50 games with those kinds of rosters, no matter who you are
Those were truly disgusting rosters. Lamar Odom was the best player on any of those rosters besides the 3 guys you mentioned, and while he was good, he was hardly a legitimate second option.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan: 9 (88-93, 96-98)
Kobe: 5 (06-10)
Lebron: 7 (12-18)

And the revisionist history is really getting out of hand - people here acting like saying Kobe was better in 09 and 10 is some outlandish claim. No one felt that way at the time. It was very much an argument. And I would give Kobe the edge just cause he was mentally tougher and didn't require dominating the ball so much so he could play in a more championship winning style - that doesn't show up in the box score and a bunch of regular season wins.

Fantastic post, bro

[brownmamba00]

Can't deny that 8 straight finals appearances by a lone, franchise star ain't half bad.

Yeah he's like a new wave jerry west. Except for 2011 that was the exception. Don't want to disrespect the Logo like that.

[Overdrive]

Exactly. '03 McGrady & '06/'07 Kobe & '09/'10 Wade dragging dumpster fires to the playoffs is an impressive achievement. You simply aren't winning more than 45-50 games with those kinds of rosters, no matter who you are

I think the 07 Mavs are a curious case. That roster wasn't much stronger either, but they made the finals the year prior and became the first seed that season simply based on Dirk's play, but the reality of that roster caught up with them when Dirk couldn't deliver vs the Warriors. Still d'accord with anything you said. Especially Wade and TMac. I think those were the weakest playoff rosters I've seen.

[k 96]

My question is, how can you be the best player in the NBA, but be 3 of 9 in the NBA Finals? That DISQUALIFIES LeHype James from the best NBA player conversion any year. Cause we all know he was carried by the Heats Dwayne Wade, and the Cavs Kyrie Irving. So to make things clear, he really deserves 0 MVP's

[GimmeThat]

well the title is nullified since match.com exist. and you can't change the outcome with Charles Barkley going MVP and FMVP are both superficial.

[SamuraiSWISH]

well the title is nullified since match.com exist. and you can't change the outcome with Charles Barkley going MVP and FMVP are both superficial.

:biggums:

[guy]

Not sure what people watched when they try to act like Kobe wasn't ball dominant.

Sure he was, but not to the same degree.

Pretty much all elite wings are ball dominant to a certain extent, but guys like Lebron, Westbrook, Harden, etc. take it to another level. Lebron's worlds better then those two, but its not a coincidence that the players that are BOTH high scoring and high assist players are very ball dominant, which is why when people cite those gaudy numbers, I think it misleads the bigger picture.

One of Jordan's best statistical seasons was 89 where he was more ball dominant then he ever was. And sure he was amazing that season but I honestly may take 5-6 other Jordan seasons over that one.

[ArbitraryWater]

Those were truly disgusting rosters. Lamar Odom was the best player on any of those rosters besides the 3 guys you mentioned, and while he was good, he was hardly a legitimate second option.

Odom was a solid 2nd option.

An era constitues what makes a 2nd option good or not.

Look at Dirk's 2nd option. Josh Howard.

[ArbitraryWater]

Jordan: 9 (88-93, 96-98)
Kobe: 5 (06-10)
Lebron: 7 (12-18)

And the revisionist history is really getting out of hand - people here acting like saying Kobe was better in 09 and 10 is some outlandish claim. No one felt that way at the time. It was very much an argument. And I would give Kobe the edge just cause he was mentally tougher and didn't require dominating the ball so much so he could play in a more championship winning style - that doesn't show up in the box score and a bunch of regular season wins.

I'm losing braincells reading this.

Kobe was mentally tougher while shooting 33% in the 4th quarter of B2B Finals? Vomiting on himself in 2 Game 7's stretching 09-10? Going 0/3 on game winners? Blocked by Pietrus, brick against OKC, dumb hero ball airball against Phoenix? While LeBron leads the league crunchtime offenses both years and strings together entire 4th quarter carry jobs against Orlando?

What exactly did this fraud do to fool all you fools? Was it the scowl?

Basketball community has to be the biggest assembly of idiots lol

[RRR3]

Odom was a solid 2nd option.

An era constitues what makes a 2nd option good or not.

Look at Dirk's 2nd option. Josh Howard.
Josh Howard was clearly a better scorer than Odom and so was Jason Terry. Bad point.

[ArbitraryWater]

Jordan: 9 (88-93, 96-98)
Kobe: 5 (06-10)
Lebron: 7 (12-18)

And the revisionist history is really getting out of hand - people here acting like saying Kobe was better in 09 and 10 is some outlandish claim. No one felt that way at the time. It was very much an argument. And I would give Kobe the edge just cause he was mentally tougher and didn't require dominating the ball so much so he could play in a more championship winning style - that doesn't show up in the box score and a bunch of regular season wins.

Btw I like how you just give MJ '98 and stop at 18 for LeBron after starting 3 years too late, like LeBron doesn't have a superior BITW argument in 2020 than MJ in '98.

[ArbitraryWater]

Josh Howard was clearly a better scorer than Odom and so was Jason Terry. Bad point.

Yikes, Lamar Odom was clearly a better player than Josh Howard and Jason Terry.

[Bronbron23]

Btw I like how you just give MJ '98 and stop at 18 for LeBron after starting 3 years too late, like LeBron doesn't have a superior BITW argument in 2020 than MJ in '98.

Its not that bron isnt the best player still its just that he missed to many games last year and wasnt his usual dominant self when he did come back because of the injury and this year he cant get it because the season is probably done.

[red1]

curry zero MVPs

[guy]

I'm losing braincells reading this.

Kobe was mentally tougher while shooting 33% in the 4th quarter of B2B Finals? Vomiting on himself in 2 Game 7's stretching 09-10? Going 0/3 on game winners? Blocked by Pietrus, brick against OKC, dumb hero ball airball against Phoenix? While LeBron leads the league crunchtime offenses both years and strings together entire 4th quarter carry jobs against Orlando?

Did you even have a ****ing brain and eyes to watch back then? I guess that’s unnecessary when we have box scores to read.

Is one of the game 7s you are referring to the one in 09 vs the Rockets? Where the Lakers were up by double digits by the first quarter and never looked back? Maybe you should read the full box score next time and not just Kobe’s stats.

Sure, he wasn’t good in game 7 vs the Celtics. Did I feel like its cause he was afraid of the moment and choked? Not really. If he was afraid, he wouldn’t have shot so much. That was a grind it out defensive game where almost everyone on both teams shot like shit and the team that got to the free throw line and won the battle of the boards was going to win. And Kobe got to the line the most and had 15 rebounds. Again, wouldn’t call it a good performance, but not a choke either.

When I think of best player, I’m thinking of who would I want to build around for that year for the purpose of winning a championship. You bring up Lebron’s gaudy numbers in 09, which again come in this incredibly ball dominant system, and I mean more so then it was in later years of Lebron’s career, which is tailor made for him to do everything and rack up numbers. And sure, there’s some success - it results in an incredible regular season and being able to beat MOST teams in a playoff series, but that’s not the same thing as winning a championship.

And Lebron didn’t choke in 09. But he did in 2010 and then 2011 in the biggest moments. Maybe its unfair of me to take 2010 and 2011 into account when I think of 09 since those years didn’t happen, but its hard to ignore when my definition is who’s the first player I’d want to build around for the purpose of winning a championship. And even if 2010 was him not choking, and him just being like **** these guys because a teammate ****ed his mom which is completely understandable and maybe every person would feel that way – that still doesn’t explain 2011. It also doesn’t erase my issues with his style of play.


Btw I like how you just give MJ '98 and stop at 18 for LeBron after starting 3 years too late, like LeBron doesn't have a superior BITW argument in 2020 than MJ in '98.

Well first off, no he doesn’t for the simple fact that Jordan had important games, i.e. a playoffs and finals to prove that he was still clearly the best player in the world.

Second, I wasn’t even thinking of 2020 since its so up in the air.

Third, based on the last time we had important games, Kawhi would be that guy. But again, hard for me to really have a strong opinion on 2020 right now.

[Manny98]

Did you even have a ****ing brain and eyes to watch back then? I guess that’s unnecessary when we have box scores to read.

Is one of the game 7s you are referring to the one in 09 vs the Rockets? Where the Lakers were up by double digits by the first quarter and never looked back? Maybe you should read the full box score next time and not just Kobe’s stats.

Sure, he wasn’t good in game 7 vs the Celtics. Did I feel like its cause he was afraid of the moment and choked? Not really. If he was afraid, he wouldn’t have shot so much. That was a grind it out defensive game where almost everyone on both teams shot like shit and the team that got to the free throw line and won the battle of the boards was going to win. And Kobe got to the line the most and had 15 rebounds. Again, wouldn’t call it a good performance, but not a choke either.

When I think of best player, I’m thinking of who would I want to build around for that year for the purpose of winning a championship. You bring up Lebron’s gaudy numbers in 09, which again come in this incredibly ball dominant system, and I mean more so then it was in later years of Lebron’s career, which is tailor made for him to do everything and rack up numbers. And sure, there’s some success - it results in an incredible regular season and being able to beat MOST teams in a playoff series, but that’s not the same thing as winning a championship.

And Lebron didn’t choke in 09. But he did in 2010 and then 2011 in the biggest moments. Maybe its unfair of me to take 2010 and 2011 into account when I think of 09 since those years didn’t happen, but its hard to ignore when my definition is who’s the first player I’d want to build around for the purpose of winning a championship. And even if 2010 was him not choking, and him just being like **** these guys because a teammate ****ed his mom which is completely understandable and maybe every person would feel that way – that still doesn’t explain 2011. It also doesn’t erase my issues with his style of play.



Well first off, no he doesn’t for the simple fact that Jordan had important games, i.e. a playoffs and finals to prove that he was still clearly the best player in the world.

Second, I wasn’t even thinking of 2020 since its so up in the air.

Third, based on the last time we had important games, Kawhi would be that guy. But again, hard for me to really have a strong opinion on 2020 right now.
Yet you have Jordan over Bird & Magic in 88/89

You're literally contradicting your own logic, why I can't take you Jordan stans seriously :facepalm

[guy]

Yet you have Jordan over Bird & Magic in 88/89

You're literally contradicting your own logic, why I can't take you Jordan stans seriously :facepalm

Because he didn't have a habit of choking and could play much better off the ball. Not sure where the contradiction is. Either way, I wouldn't make it sound like it was an absolutely crazy idea if someone thought Bird and/or Magic were better then Jordan in those years the way people are about Kobe being better then Lebron in 09 and 10, especially when that was a very common opinion at the time.

[RRR3]

You don't get to go back in time and criticize LeBron for past years because he choked in 2011. Unless Kobe was magically a choker in the years before 2004 because he choked in the 04 finals.

[Manny98]

Because he didn't have a habit of choking and could play much better off the ball. Not sure where the contradiction is. Either way, I wouldn't make it sound like it was an absolutely crazy idea if someone thought Bird and/or Magic were better then Jordan in those years the way people are about Kobe being better then Lebron in 09 and 10, especially when that was a very common opinion at the time.
Kobe literally has zero argument over LeBron in 09

Do you think Kobe could elevate a cast consisting of Mo Williams & a bunch of low tier scrubs to 66 wins and put up the type of numbers LeBron put up that season?

09 LeBron was literally a top 10 season ever what he did prior to or after is irrelevant

[RRR3]

It still boggles my mind LeBron led THAT team to 66 wins. One of his most underrated feats.

[guy]

You don't get to go back in time and criticize LeBron for past years because he choked in 2011. Unless Kobe was magically a choker in the years before 2004 because he choked in the 04 finals.

Actually, I can do whatever the **** I want when it comes to my opinion on who I feel was the best player :oldlol:. I don't think he just all of a sudden became mentally weaker at an older age. Thats usually not how it works.

I don't think Kobe choked. I think he played incredibly selfish that series. There's a difference. But along with the fact that I thought Shaq and Duncan were better, his selfishness and not being great enough to overcompensate for that is part of the reason why I don't think he was the best player in any of those years. In 2004, that fact was just on full display.

Are people this butthurt that they completely ignore that I said he was the was the best player for 7 years once he mostly got over what I criticized him for? :oldlol:

[guy]

Do you think Kobe could elevate a cast consisting of Mo Williams & a bunch of low tier scrubs to 66 wins and put up the type of numbers LeBron put up that season?



And when it comes to leading a team to a championship, that means what exactly?

[RRR3]

Actually, I can do whatever the **** I want when it comes to my opinion on who I feel was the best player :oldlol:. I don't think he just all of a sudden became mentally weaker at an older age. Thats usually not how it works.

I don't think Kobe choked. I think he played incredibly selfish that series. There's a difference. But along with the fact that I thought Shaq and Duncan were better, his selfishness and not being great enough to overcompensate for that is part of the reason why I don't think he was the best player in any of those years. In 2004, that fact was just on full display.

Are people this butthurt that they completely ignore that I said he was the was the best player for 7 years once he mostly got over what I criticized him for? :oldlol:
LeBron has much less of an argument for being the best player in 2015 than he does in 09 or 10. I've never seen his jumpshot as bad as it was in the 15 playoffs. Never. He was like Giannis level and was having immense trouble scoring efficiently which he hadn't since like the 07 and 08 playoffs. He had wayyyyyyy more pressure on him in 2011 than he did in 2009 or 2010. Different situations.

[Manny98]

And when it comes to leading a team to a championship, that means what exactly?
Df does that even mean?

Jordan didn't win a championship yet 88 or 89 yet you were still quick to crown him the best in the world those years

[Overdrive]

Josh Howard was clearly a better scorer than Odom and so was Jason Terry. Bad point.


Yikes, Lamar Odom was clearly a better player than Josh Howard and Jason Terry.

You're arguing this shit over two threads now. The Mavs roster wasn't that great and definately overachieved, but Howard and Terry were players, who at that point helped Dirk more than Odom did for Kobe. Odom in a vacuum was a better player than either and the moment Pau came along neither Terry nor Howard would've been as valuable as Lamar was for those Lakers teams.

[guy]

LeBron has much less of an argument for being the best player in 2015 than he does in 09 or 10. I've never seen his jumpshot as bad as it was in the 15 playoffs. Never. He was like Giannis level and was having immense trouble scoring efficiently which he hadn't since like the 07 and 08 playoffs. He had wayyyyyyy more pressure on him in 2011 than he did in 2009 or 2010. Different situations.

I agree. It was one of his weaker seasons relatively speaking. With that said, who would it be then? I wouldn’t pick Curry or Harden over him. KD was out. I don’t think there was anyone close to 09/10 Kobe at the time so it’s easily Lebron in 2015 for me.

So your judging Lebron specifically based on the situation he was in. I differ in how I think about it. If he made the finals in 09 or 10 there would’ve been immense pressure on him. Or if he just had a great team thats an actual favorite there would’ve been immense pressure on him. 2011 is evidence to me on how he may have performed. 2010 is also evidence to me and both together tell me that it’s not a one-off thing. Sure it’s not factual but I can theorize on how I think it may havewent down based on the available information.

[Axe]

It still boggles my mind LeBron led THAT team to 66 wins. One of his most underrated feats.
Yeah but a lot of people still said that team was trash.

[ArbitraryWater]

Did you even have a ****ing brain and eyes to watch back then? I guess that’s unnecessary when we have box scores to read.

Is one of the game 7s you are referring to the one in 09 vs the Rockets? Where the Lakers were up by double digits by the first quarter and never looked back? Maybe you should read the full box score next time and not just Kobe’s stats.

Sure, he wasn’t good in game 7 vs the Celtics. Did I feel like its cause he was afraid of the moment and choked? Not really. If he was afraid, he wouldn’t have shot so much. That was a grind it out defensive game where almost everyone on both teams shot like shit and the team that got to the free throw line and won the battle of the boards was going to win. And Kobe got to the line the most and had 15 rebounds. Again, wouldn’t call it a good performance, but not a choke either.

When I think of best player, I’m thinking of who would I want to build around for that year for the purpose of winning a championship. You bring up Lebron’s gaudy numbers in 09, which again come in this incredibly ball dominant system, and I mean more so then it was in later years of Lebron’s career, which is tailor made for him to do everything and rack up numbers. And sure, there’s some success - it results in an incredible regular season and being able to beat MOST teams in a playoff series, but that’s not the same thing as winning a championship.

And Lebron didn’t choke in 09. But he did in 2010 and then 2011 in the biggest moments. Maybe its unfair of me to take 2010 and 2011 into account when I think of 09 since those years didn’t happen, *cut for character purposes

You didn't even adress Kobe's last second failures, finals 4th quarter failures.

"If he was afraid, he wouldn't have shot so much" simplistic bro science explanation bullshit. Just another way of dealing with pressure.

Over-shooting. Trying to wrestle through it, but not coping with the moment anyway.

Kobe clearly could not cope at the moment when a true person's character shows. When we see what a man is made of.

But it doesn't matter doe! It's Kobe. He got the angry face. The scowl!

He can run in the paint and get swatted by Pietrus like an idiot, he can airball like an idiot off a inbound turnaround against Phoenix, or brick against OKC...

Its all good and forgiven.

In no way speaks to his mental flaws.

He's still clutcher than the man stringing together the league's best crunchtime offense, hitting buzzer beaters to save series', or leading 4th quarter scoring.

Don't you see how Kobe clearly represents the mentally strong attributes LeBron lacked?

I mean, what was LeBron doing?

35/14 and 11 in the 4th quarter to tip the series in their favor against Boston in 2011, then a personal 10-0 run to close out game 5?

How about 12 4th quarter points to close out the next series, rally the comeback, game saving block to advance to the finals?

Don't matter. 2011 finals happened. Everything else can be swiftly brushed over.

Your entire logic is so severely crumbling and off, it's just weak shit that can't be backed with any facts.

You can pin point to similar crucial disappearing MJ games from 1988/1989 as LeBron had in 2010, fyi.

What playing style issues?

Handling the ball more than Mo Williams?

In case you didn't know, LeBron was #2 in mid range shooting among all players in 2010/2011.

[SouBeachTalents]

You didn't even adress Kobe's last second failures, finals 4th quarter failures.

"If he was afraid, he wouldn't have shot so much" simplistic bro science explanation bullshit. Just another way of dealing with pressure.

Over-shooting. Trying to wrestle through it, but not coping with the moment anyway.

Kobe clearly could not cope at the moment when a true person's character shows. When we see what a man is made of.

But it doesn't matter doe! It's Kobe. He got the angry face. The scowl!

He can run in the paint and get swatted by Pietrus like an idiot, he can airball like an idiot off a inbound turnaround against Phoenix, or brick against OKC...

Its all good and forgiven.

In no way speaks to his mental flaws.

He's still clutcher than the man stringing together the league's best crunchtime offense, hitting buzzer beaters to save series', or leading 4th quarter scoring.

Don't you see how Kobe clearly represents the mentally strong attributes LeBron lacked?

I mean, what was LeBron doing?

35/14 and 11 in the 4th quarter to tip the series in their favor against Boston in 2011, then a personal 10-0 run to close out game 5?

How about 12 4th quarter points to close out the next series, rally the comeback, game saving block to advance to the finals?

Don't matter. 2011 finals happened. Everything else can be swiftly brushed over.

Your entire logic is so severely crumbling and off, it's just weak shit that can't be backed with any facts.

You can pin point to similar crucial disappearing MJ games from 1988/1989 as LeBron had in 2010, fyi.

What playing style issues?

Handling the ball more than Mo Williams?

In case you didn't know, LeBron was #2 in mid range shooting among all players in 2010/2011.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qR1Ob6Vxsi0/hqdefault.jpg

[LAL]

You didn't even adress Kobe's last second failures, finals 4th quarter failures.

"If he was afraid, he wouldn't have shot so much" simplistic bro science explanation bullshit. Just another way of dealing with pressure.

Over-shooting. Trying to wrestle through it, but not coping with the moment anyway.

Kobe clearly could not cope at the moment when a true person's character shows. When we see what a man is made of.

But it doesn't matter doe! It's Kobe. He got the angry face. The scowl!

He can run in the paint and get swatted by Pietrus like an idiot, he can airball like an idiot off a inbound turnaround against Phoenix, or brick against OKC...

Its all good and forgiven.

In no way speaks to his mental flaws.

He's still clutcher than the man stringing together the league's best crunchtime offense, hitting buzzer beaters to save series', or leading 4th quarter scoring.

Don't you see how Kobe clearly represents the mentally strong attributes LeBron lacked?

I mean, what was LeBron doing?

35/14 and 11 in the 4th quarter to tip the series in their favor against Boston in 2011, then a personal 10-0 run to close out game 5?

How about 12 4th quarter points to close out the next series, rally the comeback, game saving block to advance to the finals?

Don't matter. 2011 finals happened. Everything else can be swiftly brushed over.

Your entire logic is so severely crumbling and off, it's just weak shit that can't be backed with any facts.

You can pin point to similar crucial disappearing MJ games from 1988/1989 as LeBron had in 2010, fyi.

What playing style issues?

Handling the ball more than Mo Williams?

In case you didn't know, LeBron was #2 in mid range shooting among all players in 2010/2011.

No you don't quite understand i think, Nobody is saying kobe doesn't have bad moments.. it just that lebron has way more.
"Stats tho!" "Pietrus tho!"

[ArbitraryWater]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qR1Ob6Vxsi0/hqdefault.jpg


Wow, now that's mental strength!

I trust that guy

[brownmamba00]

Lol kobe killed pietrus that finals. Little kids stick to watching 2016 finals highlights:oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Lol kobe killed pietrus that finals. Little kids stick to watching 2016 finals highlights:oldlol:

Are you retarded? Can you read? Even if that were true, it would be of no relevance to the discussion.

But since Kobe was shooting 33% in the 4th quarters almost killing his team like an absolute idiot, it'd be pretty hard to kill anyone but his own squad.