How can anyone have Kobe as GOAT?

[StrongLurk]

RIP Black Mamba, pure respect for his game forever...but how can anyone have him as GOAT when he doesn't have GOAT level production OR accolades?

I mean yeah, the guy was a wizard at scoring...but being extremely versatile/skilled at scoring only gets you so far. Not only that, but the actual GOAT (MJ) is literally a better version of Kobe. Kobe copied MJ's game so we actually have the EASIEST MJ comparison possible compared to guys like Lebron, Kareem, Larry Bird...and MJ comes out ahead on production in the regular season, playoffs, and finals. Also has more MVPs, FMVPS, etc.

I don't see what most people just say "Kobe is my favorite player" and leave it at that?

[Docs Orders]

Most have him ranked 12th afaik

[StrongLurk]

He's in the 5-8 range for me. Third tier GOAT level.

[TheCorporation]

Consensus top 15, arguable top 12.

[Keno]

only people who have him as the goat are his stans and dick riders. top 12 at best.

[LAmbruh]

ranked 12th all time seems to be the Consensus™

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Most people don't even have Kobe as their "GOAT". And most media outlets barely have him in their top 10.

What are you on about?

[scuzzy]

StrongLurk LOVES attacking strawman

[STATUTORY]

Very few people have Kobe as the GOAT i would imagine

6>5 after all

[StrongLurk]

You guys are ignorant as hell. Kobe is the second most popular basketball player ever...and because the NBA has the most ignorant, casual fan base of all major sports, then you should realize that among a LOT of basketball fans, popularity = best. So, there are a TON of people who think Kobe is the best player ever, or the second best player at worse.

Basically no one who played before MJ is brought up as GOAT by people 40 and under. And most people who have basketball discussions online are certainly under 40. So, GOAT discussions for a lot of people start with basketball in the 90's/early 2000s and onward, which leads Kobe to get a ton of spotlight compared to his most accurate all time nba ranking (which is between 5-8 in the top 10). There are plenty of large social media personalities with huge followings who insist Kobe is the GOAT.

[ArbitraryWater]

OP is so retarded.

Every thread he makes he needs to get something heavy off his chest about the dumbest of topics

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You're literally making up shit lol

Kobe does have a lot of fans. Or "stans" who shouldn't even be taken seriously. Point is they're outweighed by the majority (common sense) and the majority don't have him as GOAT.

Neither do sports media.

[StrongLurk]

OP is so retarded.

Every thread he makes he needs to get something heavy off his chest about the dumbest of topics

You have more posts than anyone I have seen on here...yet I have no idea your style of posting or anything significant that you have said...but you seem to know me. Weird.

[StrongLurk]

You're literally making up shit lol

Kobe does have a lot of fans. Or "stans" who shouldn't even be taken seriously. Point is they're outweighed by the majority (common sense) and the majority don't have him as GOAT.

Neither do sports media.

Way more people rank Kobe ahead of Shaq and Magic. Even though it's wrong to have Kobe ahead of them...the majority/consensus is that he is ahead. In fact, most casual basketball fans (aka 95% of NBA fans), will have Kobe as a top three player of all time.

So no, I am not making anything up.

[ArbitraryWater]

You have more posts than anyone I have seen on here...yet I have no idea your style of posting or anything significant that you have said...but you seem to know me. Weird.

Yeah, we all know you, as a dumb fukk

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Way more people rank Kobe ahead of Shaq and Magic. Even though it's wrong to have Kobe ahead of them...the majority/consensus is that he is ahead. In fact, most casual basketball fans (aka 95% of NBA fans), will have Kobe as a top three player of all time.

So no, I am not making anything up.


OK but that isn't "GOAT". Which is your entire premise lol

[StrongLurk]

Yeah, we all know you, as a dumb fukk

I'm the most objective poster on this board. Every time.

[Overdrive]

Alot people outside the US, being between 30 and 35 years old might say Kobe is the GOAT. It's a coming off age thing. Just like proclaiming the music you listened to when you were 15 will always be the best it's just like that for ball players. Most non americans don't follow indepth analysis about basketball on regular basis and hence have no historic outlook.

It's just like the guys proclaiming Lebron GOAT rn. They're mostly in the 20 to 30y/o age group. Same for the 40y/o+ Jordan stans etcetc.

There will never be a definative answer to such a question, because everyone uses different criterias and most people are homers.

[StrongLurk]

OK but that isn't "GOAT". Which is your entire premise lol

My premise is how can anybody have Kobe as GOAT with MJ in existence? I would say 2 out 10 NBA fans have Kobe as GOAT, but it doesn't make any sense considering there is literally another player who is extremely similar, but solidly better.

There isn't another Shaq, or Magic, or Kareem, or Lebron.

[superduper]

Literally the only people who have Bran as GOAT are his gob slobbers.

[And1AllDay]

5 rings
Most iconic regular season game with 81 points (SEE AVY)
Destroyed Duncan Spurs
Destroyed Boston big 3
killer mentality and did not need pip to save his nba career

[StrongLurk]

Literally the only people who have Bran as GOAT are his gob slobbers.

Mostly true, but at least Lebron and MJ is an interesting discussion because they bring a lot of different things to the table at an Elite label.

Imagine there being a Steph Curry clone, but he only has about 80% of Curry's scoring/shooting/assist production...and then imagine millions of people saying the Curry clone is better...shit is crazy.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

My premise is how can anybody have Kobe as GOAT with MJ in existence? I would say 2 out 10 NBA fans have Kobe as GOAT, but it doesn't make any sense considering there is literally another player who is extremely similar, but solidly better.

Those people probably base it off skills. And Kobe just might be the most skilled player ever.

The bottom line is there isn't enough of them out there to be confused. ESPN and FOX are the major sports outlets in America. They don't even rock with Kobe like that.

[superduper]

Mostly true, but at least Lebron and MJ is an interesting discussion because they bring a lot of different things to the table at an Elite label.

Imagine there being a Steph Curry clone, but he only has about 80% of Curry's scoring/shooting/assist production...and then imagine millions of people saying the Curry clone is better...shit is crazy.

No one truly thinks Kobe is a better player than MJ but there are many factors and attributes that make him favorable as a competitive role model.

Bran's just a clown and so are his stans.

[StrongLurk]

Those people probably base it off skills. And Kobe just might the most skilled player ever.

The bottom line is there isn't enough of them out there to be confused. ESPN and FOX are the major sports outlets in America. They don't even rock with Kobe like that.

Bro even that isn't true...that's just another cop out with Kobe in my opinion. Kobe is 6'6 and was a GREAT athlete for the vast majority of his career, but how good would Kobe be if he was 6'2-6'3 and 20 pounds lighter? I would argue guys like Nash and Curry are more skilled.

[Stanley Kobrick]

Literally the only people who have Bran as GOAT are his gob slobbers.
Imagine being narcassistic for Bran

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Bro even that isn't true...that's just another cop out with Kobe in my opinion. Kobe is 6'6 and was a GREAT athlete for the vast majority of his career, but how good would Kobe be if he was 6'2-6'3 and 20 pounds lighter. I would argue guys like Nash and Curry are more skilled.

I'm not saying that's what I think. I'm telling you how it is.

The majority of Kobe's fans and the minority who have him "GOAT"? They base it on the eye test. And their arguments 99% of the time involve "SKILLZ!!!" The Kobe fanboys that were banned here? Same thing. All of them spammed about how much more SKILLED he was than every player.

[GimmeThat]

his 5 rings consisted of 0 white American starters (Walton didn't start in the playoffs)
Jordan had Paxson for 2 seasons

[jstern]

The Kobe vs Jordan was a big debate, even in ESPN. Things were very similar to the Lebron vs Jordan debate now. The main difference is that while before it was about skills and style of play, and winning, Lebron's style of play has made it all about stats. The teenage Kobe stans = the teenage Lebron stans, because they're human. To me they're equal. So it's wild to me when I see the youth going on about VORP, and stat after stat that Lebron accumulates due to the Lebron ball system, where he gets stats at the expense of overall team stats. Teenagers going on about stats, instead of just the nerds. It's mind boggling to see how far Kobe has dropped in that regard and it's all because of the Lebron ball stats era.

I mean, think back to the Jordan era. There was absolutely no one in the world who thought Scottie Pippen was the better player. It was just clear as day that Jordan was the absolute best, the man. But now you have Lebron stans that can make an argument that sounds reasonable to a casual that Pippen was better because he averaged more rebounds and assists, and if he just shot a little more he would score just as many points. It's that simple, Pippen is better than Jordan.

[AlternativeAcc.]

The Kobe vs Jordan was a big debate, even in ESPN. Things were very similar to the Lebron vs Jordan debate now. The main difference is that while before it was about skills and style of play, and winning, Lebron's style of play has made it all about stats. The teenage Kobe stans = the teenage Lebron stans, because they're human. To me they're equal. So it's wild to me when I see the youth going on about VORP, and stat after stat that Lebron accumulates due to the Lebron ball system, where he gets stats at the expense of overall team stats. Teenagers going on about stats, instead of just the nerds. It's mind boggling to see how far Kobe has dropped in that regard and it's all because of the Lebron ball stats era.

I mean, think back to the Jordan era. There was absolutely no one in the world who thought Scottie Pippen was the better player. It was just clear as day that Jordan was the absolute best, the man. But now you have Lebron stans that can make an argument that sounds reasonable to a casual that Pippen was better because he averaged more rebounds and assists, and if he just shot a little more he would score just as many points. It's that simple, Pippen is better than Jordan.

Could you save your autistic rants for the OTC weird guy

thanks

[SamuraiSWISH]

He's the 2nd best SG, and Top Ten ever, prob in that 6 - 10 range depending on what you value. But no one in their right mind him as GOAT. He's like at his best 85 - 90% of peak Jordan. That's no disrespect to Kobe. The utmost respect to Mamba. He earned it, and he's up there. But I personally still have guys like Magic, Bird, and possibly even LeBron above him. Not to mention Shaq, Kareem, and Russell. Hakeem and Duncan right there with him.

[sbw19]

He may not be the greatest, but he is easily the most iconic player in the post Bulls Dynasty era. And, quite possibly, the most complete player ever.

[red1]

he moved up my top 10 after his last few years. he was still a beast until the achilles. IMO he's in the same tier as magic bird and duncan and I have him above duncan.

[Manny98]

Literally the only people who have Kobe as GOAT are his gob slobbers.
Agreed

[Jasper]

he's the goat cause he'll have his wife except the award at the HOF , only one if I recall/

[Rysio]

Because he is the most skilled player of all time and there was nothing on the court he couldn't do something even Jordan couldnt say just a complete master of the game.

[deathawaitu]

No sane person would rank Kobe as the GOAT.

Kobe is ranked exactly where he should be, top 10.

Anyone ranking him in the top 5 or outside top 10 are too much of a fanboy or a hater

[Roundball_Rock]

Few have him GOAT at a place like ISH but among fans in general Kobe is usually 2 or 3, sometimes 1. It's odd. He won 1 MVP in 20 years and was not the first option until his 7th season.

[Mr Feeny]

Because he is the most skilled player of all time and there was nothing on the court he couldn't do something even Jordan couldnt say just a complete master of the game.


He couldnt average 47% for a season.
Couldnt top 40 points in any finals game ever.

His lack of skill is reflected in his abysmal career averages compared to any all time great, whether we look at simple stats or advanced ones.

Couldnt pass. Couldnt rebound. Couldn't block. Couldn't play the passing lane. Couldn't perform when the stakes were high I.e. the finals.

[Mr Feeny]

No sane person would rank Kobe as the GOAT.

Kobe is ranked exactly where he should be, top 10.

Anyone ranking him in the top 5 or outside top 10 are too much of a fanboy or a hater

The vast majority of basketball fans have him in the 11-13 range.

[Rysio]

He couldnt average 47% for a season.
Couldnt top 40 points in any finals game ever.

His lack of skill is reflected in his abysmal career averages compared to any all time great, whether we look at simple stats or advanced ones.

Couldnt pass. Couldnt rebound. Couldn't block. Couldn't play the passing lane. Couldn't perform when the stakes were high I.e. the finals.

He could do all those things you say he couldn't your retarded. Played the toughest defenses in the finals out of all atg by far so he got unlucky but still performed the best against the best competition every one of his championships all in the west. And lol at efficiency kobe was slightly less efficient than Jordan while being mostly a jumpshooter.

[Mr Feeny]

He could do all those things you say he couldn't your retarded. Played the toughest defenses in the finals out of all atg by far so he got unlucky but still performed the best against the best competition every one of his championships all in the west. And lol at efficiency kobe was slightly less efficient than Jordan while being mostly a jumpshooter.

Then why didn't he?

[Walk on Water]

How can you say you respect him and then diss him?

[deathawaitu]

The vast majority of basketball fans have him in the 11-13 range.

If we go by that logic Lebron will be Top 20, since vast majority of basketball fans have Kobe over Lebron ( NBA.com poll, Kenneth was spamming that pic constantly)

See? Not a good measuring method

[3ball]

.
Playoff Clutch Stats - last 2 min, within 5


Lebron 06-18' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&player_id=jamesle01&year_id=&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q1=&q2=&q3=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=2&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&is_tying=&is_go_ahead=&c1stat=&c1comp=&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=&c3val=&order_by=date_game&order_by_asc=&offset=0)... 40.4%.. 68-168

Kobe 00-12' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&player_id=bryanko01&year_id=&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q1=&q2=&q3=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=2&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&is_tying=&is_go_ahead=&c1stat=&c1comp=&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=&c3val=&order_by=date_game&order_by_asc=&offset=100)...... 43.2%.. 60-139

[StrongLurk]

How can you say you respect him and then diss him?

Nowhere have I disrespected Kobe. He is a top 6-8 player of all time. One of the goats.

[MrFonzworth]

You have more posts than anyone I have seen on here...yet I have no idea your style of posting or anything significant that you have said...but you seem to know me. Weird.

That's because all of, and I really mean ALL of his posts are just him just mimicking another person. He has no style because he lacks the brain capacity to create a unique opinion.

[SamuraiSWISH]

.
Playoff Clutch Stats - last 2 min, within 5


Lebron 06-18' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&player_id=jamesle01&year_id=&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q1=&q2=&q3=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=2&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&is_tying=&is_go_ahead=&c1stat=&c1comp=&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=&c3val=&order_by=date_game&order_by_asc=&offset=0)... 40.4%.. 68-168

Kobe 00-12' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&player_id=bryanko01&year_id=&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q1=&q2=&q3=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=2&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&is_tying=&is_go_ahead=&c1stat=&c1comp=&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=&c3val=&order_by=date_game&order_by_asc=&offset=100)...... 43.2%.. 60-139
Oh shit

[Turbo Slayer]

.
Playoff Clutch Stats - last 2 min, within 5


Lebron 06-18' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&player_id=jamesle01&year_id=&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q1=&q2=&q3=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=2&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&is_tying=&is_go_ahead=&c1stat=&c1comp=&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=&c3val=&order_by=date_game&order_by_asc=&offset=0)... 40.4%.. 68-168

Kobe 00-12' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&player_id=bryanko01&year_id=&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q1=&q2=&q3=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=2&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&is_tying=&is_go_ahead=&c1stat=&c1comp=&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=&c3val=&order_by=date_game&order_by_asc=&offset=100)...... 43.2%.. 60-139

Kobe shot 107/269 on 40% in less than 5 minutes in the 4th quarter and OT in the Playoffs…

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&player_id=bryanko01&year_id=&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q1=&q2=&q3=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=5&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&is_tying=&is_go_ahead=&c1stat=&c1comp=&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=&c3val=&order_by=date_game&order_by_asc=&offset=200

[Turbo Slayer]

However LeBron is more clutch than Kobe...

LeBron shot 135/322 on 42% in less than 5 minutes in the 4th quarter and OT in the Playoffs…

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&player_id=jamesle01&year_id=&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q1=&q2=&q3=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=5&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&is_tying=&is_go_ahead=&c1stat=&c1comp=&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=&c3val=&order_by=date_game&order_by_asc=&offset=300


LeBron is not only more clutch but attempted more volume as well…

KEEP IN MIND THAT THIS IS 5 MINUTES OR LESS IN 4TH QTR AND OT within 5 point differential...

[Turbo Slayer]

Smaller sample sizes…

Less than 1 minute or less in 4th Qtr and OT in the Playoffs within 5 points...

Kobe shot 34/88 on 39%

LeBron shot 39/97 on 40%

Link to LeBron’s- https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=1&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&player_id=jamesle01&order_by=date_game
Link to Kobe’s- https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=1&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&player_id=bryanko01&order_by=date_game

LeBron is more clutch than Kobe as well...

[Turbo Slayer]

In the entire 4th qtrs of their most clutch playoffs runs (2017-18 and 2008-09)

LeBron clearly outperforms Kobe.

LeBron did this:

He made 62/120 on 52 FG% and 29 3P% and 56 EFG%.

https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4

Kobe did this:

He made 49/125 on 39 FG% and 27 3P% and 43 EFG%.

https://stats.nba.com/player/977/shooting/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4

It is clear that Kobe is indefinitely less clutch than LeBron in their most clutch Playoff runs.

[Turbo Slayer]

IMPACT

Kobe ranks 74th alltime in Peak Win Shares/48 while LeBron ranks 3rd alltime in Peak Win Shares/48

Kobe ranks 51st alltime in peak BPM while LeBron ranks 2nd alltime in peak BPM...

LeBron is better in OBPM/DBPM while Kobe has negative DBPM and average OBPM............

Scoring

Points per 100 possessions

Kobe- 35.8 points

LeBron- 36.6 points

LeBron James is also a better 3 point shooter than Kobe as well..........

LeBron (.344)

Kobe (.329)

LeBron also a better 2 point shooter than Kobe..............

Kobe (.479)

LeBron (.549)

[Turbo Slayer]

Is LeBron better at finishing at the rim? Absolutely yes........

Let´s take the stats of shot distance of less than 5 feet.... (Inside the Restricted Area basically)

Let´s compare LeBron James (2019-20 season) to Kobe Bryant MVP season (2007-08).

Less than 5 FT away from basket........

LeBron James (2020) - 68% FG

Kobe Bryant (2008) - 63% FG

In fact, if we compare LeBron 2013 MVP season to Kobe 2008 MVP season LeBron destroys him in this regard.......

LeBron (2013) - 76% FG

Kobe Bryant (2008) - 63% FG

REGULAR SEASON ONLY

[Mamba4Life]

Kobe is the GOAT simply because he did the most with the least


Drafted 13th

Wasn’t given the keys to the franchise

Skinny 6’5 guy


Still ended up 5/7

[MrFonzworth]

Kobe is the GOAT simply because he did the most with the least


Drafted 13th

Wasn’t given the keys to the franchise

Skinny 6’5 guy


Still ended up 5/7

Welcome back Kenneth.

[LAL]

Bro even that isn't true...that's just another cop out with Kobe in my opinion. Kobe is 6'6 and was a GREAT athlete for the vast majority of his career, but how good would Kobe be if he was 6'2-6'3 and 20 pounds lighter? I would argue guys like Nash and Curry are How good would hakeem, MJ and bird if they were 6'3? Not better than curry and nash :oldlol::oldlol:

Kobe at 6'2 probably would dribble and have a lower stance and be quicker, add the footwork and first step. His moves are shooting guard based.

[LAL]

My list goes, MJ, Kobe, Magic and Bird.

[RRR3]

My list goes, MJ, Kobe, Magic and Bird.
Yeah and that's why no one takes you seriously.