Bulls beat themselves vs the Magic in the 1995 NBA playoffs

[Jay-B]

Just skimmed through the whole series. Jordan gave away game 1 with the turnover with 8 seconds and the lead, game 3 Bulls blow 4th quarter lead and lose, game 5 Bulls up by 15 at one point and lose, game 6 up by 8 with 3 minutes left in the 4th quarter and lose. Was Rodman really that important? Would of loved to see a Bulls Rockets finals that year

[Da_Realist]

Just skimmed through the whole series. Jordan gave away game 1 with the turnover with 8 seconds and the lead, game 3 Bulls blow 4th quarter lead and lose, game 5 Bulls up by 15 at one point and lose, game 6 up by 8 with 3 minutes left in the 4th quarter and lose. Was Rodman really that important? Would of loved to see a Bulls Rockets finals that year

Championship caliber teams close out games. The Bulls weren't ready. The Magic were a better team that year.

[GimmeThat]

you can say they beat themselves, or you can say the Magic were the team who could get a higher % shot with less clock

[Axe]

You really expect mj to be able to carry the bulls past the top seed of the east during that year when he barely played for more than one and a half of a year? Also, he did not have enough time to know his teammates well so maybe that affected their whole chemistry as a team.

[ImKobe]

Shaq was unstoppable and Penny gave them problems. They had chemistry issues watching the games but that's to be expected with Jordan coming back 1.5 years later and only playing 17 RS games with a team that just lost their best defensive big (Grant) to the Magic, who also had Shaq... Orlando had the better team. That Bulls' team was barely .500 when MJ announced his return while the Magic had the talent to still win 60 with Shaq missing like 30 games the following season. It was arguably Jordan's worst series of his Playoff career and his numbers were still impressive, aside from the TOs.

[Manny98]

Jordan choked, simple as that

[Phoenix]

I'm not so sure MJ being there all along( meaning not retiring for 1 1/2 years) would have impacted the outcome. The biggest issue really was their frontline. In an era with Hakeem, David Robinson, Shaq, Ewing, Mourning holding down the middle and these guys were typically flanked by tough power forwards, worst possible time to have Toni Kukoc playing at the 4. If Grant was still there in 95 and MJ hadn't left maybe it's a different story. Then again assuming they win in 94 you're talking about them going for a 5peat at that point. Maybe they're burnt out, maybe injuries take issue, who knows. What happened is what happened, ultimately.

[Lebron23]

They don't have Dennis Rodman in their front court. and Jordan was getting his ball stolen by Penny Hardaway.

[Turbo Slayer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NebExfqy5sI

[Bronbron23]

You really expect mj to be able to carry the bulls past the top seed of the east during that year when he barely played for more than one and a half of a year? Also, he did not have enough time to know his teammates well so maybe that affected their whole chemistry as a team.
Yeah even penny himself said when mj retired he thought he was the next mj. When mj came back that year he said he knew right away that mj was rusty but still the best in the league. He knew he was gonna regain his thrown in due time

Apparently guys like manny98 know more than penny and guys who actually played aginst mj and that mj wasnt rusty at all lol

[SamuraiSWISH]

Just skimmed through the whole series. Jordan gave away game 1 with the turnover with 8 seconds and the lead, game 3 Bulls blow 4th quarter lead and lose, game 5 Bulls up by 15 at one point and lose, game 6 up by 8 with 3 minutes left in the 4th quarter and lose. Was Rodman really that important? Would of loved to see a Bulls Rockets finals that year
Not only that but Jordan delivered off defensive attention a GAME tying or winning assist if I remember correctly in game 6 to Luc Longley ... who proceeded to NOT dunk. But attempt a layup, which he missed. They weren't closing the Magic out. Jordan was rusty, and winded. Whole team hadn't truly jelled yet. I think they would've gave a better fight to Houston, but hey that's the way the cookie crumbles. That 1995 and 1996 Magic team was scary good.

[Phoenix]

Not only that but Jordan delivered off defensive attention a GAME tying or winning assist if I remember correctly in game 6 to Luc Longley ... who proceeded to NOT dunk. But attempt a layup, which he missed. They weren't closing the Magic out. Jordan was rusty, and winded. Whole team hadn't truly jelled yet. I think they would've gave a better fight to Houston, but hey that's the way the cookie crumbles. That 1995 and 1996 Magic team was scary good.

They really were. You had the interior dominance of Shaq, with 3D bombing away for over 200 3s a game( high volume in that era), Horace providing interior toughness and that championship DNA, Nick Anderson was a solid and steady scorer/defender at the 2 and Penny's playmaking/scoring brilliance. Quite easily would have rang off titles had Shaq stayed, Penny stayed healthy and the Bulls aged themselves out of contention. Once the late 90s hit I dont see anyone really challenging them asides from Duncan's Spurs.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Jordan was the freshest player in the league and at his peak

all things considered, it's arguably the biggest choke of all time by a top 10 player

can't think of anything else that comes remotely close. Bird had some stinkers, Magic too, Wilt of course, and Duncan is no saint

But Jordan choking in 95 to the Magic takes the cake for worst choke ever

[Jay-B]

Come on, just one year later pretty much exact same rosters with the exception of Bulls adding Rodman, the Bulls completely destroyed the Magic in a 4-0 sweep. 2 plays in the 95 series were very ironic to me game 1 when Jordan passes up last shot to Pippen for a turnover and game 6 when Jordan passes up the shot with the season on the line to Luke Longley?????

[SouBeachTalents]

Come on, just one year later pretty much exact same rosters with the exception of Bulls adding Rodman, the Bulls completely destroyed the Magic in a 4-0 sweep. 2 plays in the 95 series were very ironic to me game 1 when Jordan passes up last shot to Pippen for a turnover and game 6 when Jordan passes up the shot with the season on the line to Luke Longley?????
Grant also missed nearly the entire series in '96

[Phoenix]

Come on, just one year later pretty much exact same rosters with the exception of Bulls adding Rodman, the Bulls completely destroyed the Magic in a 4-0 sweep. 2 plays in the 95 series were very ironic to me game 1 when Jordan passes up last shot to Pippen for a turnover and game 6 when Jordan passes up the shot with the season on the line to Luke Longley?????

Jordan had his normal timing and game management though, as compared to 95. I doubt what happened to him at the end of game 1 in 95 happens in 96. He could still drop 30 so people look at that and think 'what's the problem', but he had mental lapses that just wasn't normal for him in prior years or the years afterwards. MJ had his share of bad games in his prime but he rarely did things to beat himself.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan had his normal timing and game management though, as compared to 95. I doubt what happened to him at the end of game 1 in 95 happens in 96. He could still drop 30 so people look at that and think 'what's the problem', but he had mental lapses that just wasn't normal for him in prior years or the years afterwards. MJ had his share of bad games in his prime but he rarely did things to beat himself.
Timing, Rhythm, consistency, and didn't have basketball wind. Point blank truth right there.

I mean he dropped 30 in a half on those 95 Magic, then would be gassed in the second half.

Re-watch the series. 95 Jordan played like prime Air Jordan. Jumpers mixed with insane slashing, dunking, and finishing in traffic. Hell he dunked on Shaq and Horace in that series multiple times. In traffic. At 32 years old.

That's part of the reason why he quickly found out he needed to conserve energy and play less face up / off the dribble ... more out of the pinch post the next season. Use his post game, and jumper to conserve energy for defense or to finish games.

When you're tired, winded, dead legs, you make uncharacteristic mistakes. Including the foolish dribble Anderson stole that never would've happened otherwise in years prior, or after.

But that's also one of the main reasons why they molly whopped a 60+ win Shaq/Penny Magic team the next season in a sweep. It wasn't just strengthening the front line with Rodman. It's also why a normal Jordan probably wins that series even without a PF. And also shows how prime Jordan on that 94 team definitely beats the Rockets. And probably could've even won in 1995, without damn near 2 years of playing baseball. It's not inconceivable.

[Nowoco]

Jordan was shooting a dismal 40% in the RS that year, by far the lowest of his Bulls career. I dont give a shit that he dropped 50 on the Knicks, he was rusty.

The Bulls were in between losing Horace Grant and getting Dennis Rodman. They had no inside presence whatsoever. It was matchup nightmare.

[Hey Yo]

Yeah even penny himself said when mj retired he thought he was the next mj. When mj came back that year he said he knew right away that mj was rusty but still the best in the league. He knew he was gonna regain his thrown in due time

Apparently guys like manny98 know more than penny and guys who actually played aginst mj and that mj wasnt rusty at all lol
What gave it away there were signs of rust, the 55pt game on the road against the best defense in the league? Is that what Penny's referring to?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan was shooting a dismal 40% in the RS that year, by far the lowest of his Bulls career. I dont give a shit that he dropped 50 on the Knicks, he was rusty.

The Bulls were in between losing Horace Grant and getting Dennis Rodman. They had no inside presence whatsoever. It was matchup nightmare.
True but check this ...

Gone for 1.75 years of pro basketball, playing professional baseball

17 regular season games
27 ppg, 41% FG, 7 rpg, 5 apg

1995 playoffs
32 ppg, 48% FG, 7 rpg, 5 apg

[JBSptfn]

Grant also missed nearly the entire series in '96

Yes. The Jordan Jocker earlier didn't mention that.

Also, the JJ's like to bring up "court rust" when talking about 1995. What about 86 when he only played in 18 games and hung 63 on the best team ever (86 Celtics) in the first round? Why was he able to shake it off in 86 and not 95?

In addition, the Rodman addition can't be dismissed. He brought another dimension to that team. Without him, they don't three-peat. Simple as that.

[Bronbron23]

What gave it away there were signs of rust, the 55pt game on the road against the best defense in the league? Is that what Penny's referring to?

What gave it away? I dont know maybe just good ol fashion common sense and pretty much the entire nba. Dude didnt play for a year and a half. Bron and the rest of league are saying they cant come back and jump right into playoffs for obvious reasons. They're saying they need at least 15 games or so to get ready and theyve only been off for a month now. Imagine a year and a half. So sorry i think ill take lebron penny the rest of the nba and pretty much any rational thinking persons opinion over yours and dumb ass manny on this one.

[jlip]

No version of MJ was going to be able to compensate for the Bulls' front court deficiencies especially when facing a front court as potent as Shaq and Horace Grant. I did a thread on how Horace Grant had arguably the best series of his career against his former team and was practically the MVP of the series.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?471294-Is-Horace-Grant-the-REAL-reason-the-Magic-beat-the-Bulls-in-1995&p=13799175&viewfull=1#post13799175

[SamuraiSWISH]

No version of MJ was going to be able to compensate for the Bulls' front court deficiencies especially when facing a front court as potent as Shaq and Horace Grant. I did a thread on how Horace Grant had arguably the best series of his career against his former team and was practically the MVP of the series.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?471294-Is-Horace-Grant-the-REAL-reason-the-Magic-beat-the-Bulls-in-1995&p=13799175&viewfull=1#post13799175

Please. Jordan from 89 to 93 with the same team would have taken it. Hell the next 3 years versions of Michael they stand a better chance too. Just take a gander at with that 96 team did to an even better 96 Orlando Magic team.

Rodman was important. But after 1996 he was erratic, and massively inconsistent given his mental instability. He missed a ton of games.

In the hierarchy of importance of the SECOND three peat:

1) Jordan
2) Pippen
3) Phil Jackson
4) Crumbs
5) Rodman

Adding a legitimate power forward was necessary for the Bulls. But so was developing team rapport with an in basketball shape Jordan.

Also the reason Horace Grant had one of the best series of his career, Phil Jackson literally made a game plan to dare Horace Grant to beat them. Because he knew his true consistent capabilities. Grant just happened to take advantage and have a great series. With clear cut personal motivations.

[andgar923]

Championship caliber teams close out games. The Bulls weren't ready. The Magic were a better team that year.

This.

Talent can only take you so far when facing another good-great 'team'.

The Bulls simply weren't a 'team' that gelled properly. They didn't execute like they should've, they didn't work together defensively, they weren't ready READY.

But that was history the following season as we all found out.

[LAmbruh]

jordan choked, plain and simple


get over it

[3ball]

Just skimmed through the whole series. Jordan gave away game 1 with the turnover with 8 seconds and the lead, game 3 Bulls blow 4th quarter lead and lose, game 5 Bulls up by 15 at one point and lose, game 6 up by 8 with 3 minutes left in the 4th quarter and lose. Was Rodman really that important? Would of loved to see a Bulls Rockets finals that year
You've just detailed how Jordan didn't have his normal clutch domination to overcome the standard weak stats and zero clutch from Pippen (19 on 40%)

Normally, he had the extra clutch boost to overcome Pippen, but not as a rusty baseball player in 95'

That's why the Bulls lost in 95' - rusty MJ didn't have enough to overcome Pippen like he normally did

[Manny98]

Rusty my ass

Dude took two years off so he was fresher than ever when he got back and had 17 games to shake off the rust which is more than enough to get back to 100%

Jordan stans always got to make a billion excuses for his failures just except that he underperformed and lost to the better team :facepalm

[AirBonner]

MJ getting destroyed by Shaq that year was a preview of what would have happened had MJ never ducked Hakeem

[3ball]

Rusty my ass

Dude took two years off so he was fresher than ever when he got back and had 17 games to shake off the rust which is more than enough to get back to 100%

Jordan stans always got to make a billion excuses for his failures just except that he underperformed and lost to the better team :facepalm
It's the only time he had poor clutch stats and underperformed, so rational people rightfully connect it to rustiness from baseball.

He destroyed Shaq the next year when he wasn't rusty which he always did to bigs like Ewing, Zo or Dikembe

Again, the bulls lost because rusty MJ didn't have enough to overcome Pippen's poor play like he normally did

[LAmbruh]

no pip, no chip


yes pip, still no chip

[AlternativeAcc.]

no pip, no chip


yes pip, still no chip

But 32 yo Mike was 'rusty' despite having fresh legs and dozens of games under his belt

Non GOATS get bailed out by excuses

[scuzzy]

But 32 yo Mike was 'rusty' despite having fresh legs and dozens of games under his belt

Non GOATS get bailed out by excuses
not to mention coming off of 2 years worth of MLB (Double-A lol) performance enhancing steroids


peak Wade Boggs, Canseco era right before the Sosa/McGwire runs

[Da_Realist]

Whether you think MJ was rusty or not...whatever. I do think we can agree that it was an anomaly. When you look at his career, one year stands out as different than the rest. MJ retired as possibly the GOAT finisher but came back making huge blunders at the end of playoff games and was so gassed he couldn't finish games strong.

Then beginning the next year, he regained his status as the game's greatest closer and never missed a game for 3 straight years unlike the rest of his teammates.

Maybe it was a coincidence that the season in question was after a year and a half of MJ focusing on baseball and building his body to more resemble a baseball player's...focusing on muscles that helped him swing the bat and dive for loose balls more than sprinting up and down the court and jumping over guys like his trainer remarked. Or maybe it was because he was coming back to a league mid-stream that was dominated by guys a decade younger.

Rusty or not, it doesn't change the fact that Orlando was a better team that year. Chicago couldn't close games because the guy they relied on to close games wasn't up to par...that year.

[aceman]

Whether you think MJ was rusty or not...whatever. I do think we can agree that it was an anomaly. When you look at his career, one year stands out as different than the rest. MJ retired as possibly the GOAT finisher but came back making huge blunders at the end of playoff games and was so gassed he couldn't finish games strong.

Then beginning the next year, he regained his status as the game's greatest closer and never missed a game for 3 straight years unlike the rest of his teammates.

Maybe it was a coincidence that the season in question was after a year and a half of MJ focusing on baseball and building his body to more resemble a baseball player's...focusing on muscles that helped him swing the bat and dive for loose balls more than sprinting up and down the court and jumping over guys like his trainer remarked. Or maybe it was because he was coming back to a league mid-stream that was dominated by guys a decade younger.

Rusty or not, it doesn't change the fact that Orlando was a better team that year. Chicago couldn't close games because the guy they relied on to close games wasn't up to par...that year.

Bulls had no trouble closing out games in 1994 - in fact they won a ton of close games.
1995 they had no interior defence or rebounding.

[iamgine]

'91-'93 threepeat MJ > '96-'98 threepeat MJ > '95 MJ

He was just not GOAT material that season. Simple as that.

[Axe]

'91-'93 threepeat MJ > '96-'98 threepeat MJ > '95 MJ

He was just not GOAT material that season. Simple as that.
Mj will never be goat, since a lot of stans here say he never lost in the finals.

[Phoenix]

Mj will never be goat, since a lot of stans here say he never lost in the finals.

I've read this 3 times and I'm still not sure what you are trying to say.

[Axe]

I've read this 3 times and I'm still not sure what you are trying to say.
You will eventually figure it out sooner than later.

[Da_Realist]

Bulls had no trouble closing out games in 1994 - in fact they won a ton of close games.
1995 they had no interior defence or rebounding.

They lost to the Magic because they couldn't close out games.

[3ball]

They lost to the Magic because they couldn't close out games.
Exactly - despite the Bulls' deficit inside, all games were very close and better clutch would've won all the games

People vastly underrate the value of hitting timely shots and closing games - when a game is tight, the better clutch player will win

MJ was rusty and lacking his clutch powers, so the bulls didn't win.. it's that simple

[Phoenix]

You will eventually figure it out sooner than later.

You said a lot of his stans here say he never lost in the finals as if this is a myth. He....didn't lose in the finals. So again, exactly what are you trying to say?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You said a lot of his stans here say he never lost in the finals as if this is a myth. He....didn't lose in the finals. So again, exactly what are you trying to say?

That poster tripped over his laces while typing that.

[Axe]

That poster tripped over his laces while typing that.
Cool story bro.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Cool story bro.

Great line dude. You just thought of that yourself...or?

[Axe]

You said a lot of his stans here say he never lost in the finals as if this is a myth. He....didn't lose in the finals. So again, exactly what are you trying to say?
He simply can't become goat if he doesn't lose in the finals. That's why they berate him so much.

[Axe]

Great line dude. You just thought of that yourself...or?
Lmao that was fast as a bullet. Anyway, i don't recall asking for your unnecessary opinion about that matter.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Lmao that was fast as a bullet. Anyway, i don't recall asking for your unnecessary opinion about that.

You don't recall much of anything, goofy.

Explain your post again. It'll probably make less sense this time.

[Phoenix]

He simply can't become goat if he doesn't lose in the finals. That's why they berate him so much.

MJ 'can't' become GOAT if he 'doesn't' lose in the finals? I think I've been inside too long because my head isn't wrapping around this.

[Axe]

You don't recall much of anything, goofy.

Explain your post again. It'll probably make less sense this time.
Unfortunately, i'm not the type to solve the problems of a stranger. So you can go figure that out yourself.

[Axe]

MJ 'can't' become GOAT if he 'doesn't' lose in the finals? I think I've been inside too long because my head isn't wrapping around this.
Like i said, for the lbj stans who despise him so much.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Unfortunately, i'm not the type to solve the problems of a stranger. So you can go figure that out yourself.

So you're just typing words that don't mean anything. Gotcha.

[Axe]

So you're just typing words and lines that don't mean anything. Gotcha.
Then simply go away. What you think isn't that much essential. So, shoo...

[Phoenix]

Kuniva, over to you. I don't have the strength....

[Axe]

Kuniva, over to you. I don't have the strength....
God, can't believe you still don't get it. You lack nutrients to see my point.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Then simply go away. What you think isn't that much essential. So, shoo...

You sound a little defensive about it. Maybe one day you can express yourself like a normal poster?

Take your time.


Kuniva, over to you. I don't have the strength....

Devouring glue just might be a shtick of his. Kinda hard to tell.

[Phoenix]

God, can't believe you still don't get it. You lack nutrients to see my point.

Two people don't understand what you are saying. Have you considered that what you're saying, whatever it is you're attempting to express, is oddly written? Is English your first language? I'm not being snarky, but some of your expressions land a bit awkward.

[Axe]

You sound a little defensive about it. Maybe one day you can express yourself like a normal poster?

Take your time.

Devouring glue just might be a shtick of his. Kinda hard to tell.
Again, cool story.

Not my fault if you still don't get my point.

[Axe]

Two people don't understand what you are saying. Have you considered that what you're saying, whatever it is you're attempting to express, is oddly written? Is English your first language? I'm not being snarky, but some of your expressions land a bit awkward.
Alright, i was just simply trying to be sarcastic with that remark i made earlier. Unfortunately, you didn't see how. Sheesh. What a baloney.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Not my fault if you still don't get my point.

Bro. In all fairness, I don't think anyone does :confusedshrug:

[Axe]

Bro. In all fairness, I don't think anyone does :confusedshrug:
Is sarcasm really that non-existent to many of you here?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Bro. In all fairness, I don't think anyone does :confusedshrug:
True

[Nowoco]

You have to feel for Nick Anderson. Had his legendary often repeated steal of MJ which would have been his defining moment had the Magic won the chip that year. Instead he costs the Magic game 1 (and with it, possibly the series) by bricking 4 FTs in a row, gets coined "Nick the Brick" as a result and then is never the same player again.

[Vino24]

I feel bad for 3ball. This information literally causes him sleepless nights

[bigkingsfan]

That 1995 and 1996 Magic team was scary good.

They got swept both years.

[Vino24]

They got swept both years.

Yup. They were not nearly as stacked as MJ Bulls

[Roundball_Rock]

Horace Grant was the difference, hence the acquisition of Rodman the following season.

[FromDowntown]

Just skimmed through the whole series. Jordan gave away game 1 with the turnover with 8 seconds and the lead, game 3 Bulls blow 4th quarter lead and lose, game 5 Bulls up by 15 at one point and lose, game 6 up by 8 with 3 minutes left in the 4th quarter and lose. Was Rodman really that important? Would of loved to see a Bulls Rockets finals that year

Jordan was a scorer But he relied on solid defenders to help him win.

Pippen and Rodman showed MJ how to win.

[FromDowntown]

Shaq was unstoppable and Penny gave them problems. They had chemistry issues watching the games but that's to be expected with Jordan coming back 1.5 years later and only playing 17 RS games with a team that just lost their best defensive big (Grant) to the Magic, who also had Shaq... Orlando had the better team. That Bulls' team was barely .500 when MJ announced his return while the Magic had the talent to still win 60 with Shaq missing like 30 games the following season. It was arguably Jordan's worst series of his Playoff career and his numbers were still impressive, aside from the TOs.

Didn't "rusty" MJ drop a Madison Square Garden record 60 points in one game? Nice try lil guy :lol

[3ball]

Pippen averaged 19 on 40% in this series

If he gets 22 on 48% they win easily

The loss is on him - he's the guy with the bad stats that couldn't outplay his matchup

But this is nothing new - Pippen's poor play cost the Bulls titles from 88-90'.. its a shame because guys like rookie Worthy averaged 22 on 64% in the Finals against the 84' Celtics - surely that production would've won the 89' and 90' ECF instead of Pippen's 9 on 40%.. So if Worthy played next to Jordan instead of Pippen, Worthy would've been better than Pippen in HS, college, draft, and now a 2-ring head start as a young pro.. there's no way Pippen overcomes that to still be ranked higher than Worthy all-time - he simply won the "play with MJ lottery", so the winning spotlight inflated his weak production

[Uncle Drew]

Pippen averaged 19 on 40% in this series

If he gets 22 on 48% they win easily

The loss is on him - he's the guy with the bad stats that couldn't outplay his matchup

But this is nothing new - Pippen's poor play cost the Bulls titles from 88-90'.. its a shame because guys like rookie Worthy averaged 22 on 64% in the Finals against the 84' Celtics - surely that production would've won the 89' and 90' ECF instead of Pippen's 9 on 40%.. So if Worthy played next to Jordan instead of Pippen, Worthy would've been better than Pippen in HS, college, draft, and now a 2-ring head start as a young pro.. there's no way Pippen overcomes that to still be ranked higher than Worthy all-time - he simply won the "play with MJ lottery", so the winning spotlight inflated his weak production
1-9.

[Overdrive]

Jordan was a scorer But he relied on solid defenders to help him win.

Pippen and Rodman showed MJ how to win.

Between these 3 guys 2 have dpoys. Guess who doesn't have one.

[Da_Realist]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTFtY6KgS58&t=16m48s