RIP America - Those who would give up liberty for (supposed) safety deserve neither

[Nanners]

We are seeing the most draconian measures enforced at all levels of government that any of us have seen in our lifetimes, and yet rather than being alarmed by the things going on, so many of you applaud.

People are being arrested for spending too much time outside, and people applaud. A child's birthday party is raided by police, and people applaud. A young woman is ticketed for going on a leisurely drive alone because it's deemed "non-essential travel", and people applaud. A parade of school teachers and administrators who wanted to drive through neighborhoods and wave at children is busted up by cops because they were "nonessential," and people applaud. A lone paddle boarder in the ocean on a beach without any other people around is arrested because he's violating quarantine orders, and people applaud. Businesses are beings forcibly closed and padlocked and owners arrested for refusing to shut down, and people applaud. People are being denied life saving medical treatments because they're not a priority right now (not "essential" as deemed by the government) as the entirety of our medical system is focused on one thing, and people applaud.

People are told to use hotlines and online forms provided by their local governments to report their neighbors who don't obey, and they comply. People scold others day after day for not obeying government edicts, and if any of us dare to question what's happening, they get a lecture about how we're a danger to society and and we just don't care about people dying.

People somehow managed to convince themselves that the relatively small number of sick old people who are affected by the virus (people who would be affected by any virus) are much more important than the orders of magnitude more whose lives are being completely destroyed by the effects of a worldwide economic shutdown and impending worldwide depression the likes of which no one has ever seen before.

At what point will you start QUESTIONING what's going on? How far does the government have to push before you're jolted awake from your slumber?

If they told you to load your families onto train cars so that you could be taken to Virus Protection Facilities for your own safety, would you do it? Many of you would, and the whole time, you'd be shaking your finger and yelling at those of us who refused to take our families with you, accusing us of being "a danger to society" and "not caring if people die."

But they don't have to load you onto train cars and take you to Virus Protection Facilities, or force you to comply, because so many of you gladly do that voluntarily.

They control your mind by convincing you that the world is a scary dangerous place... but they're here to protect you, care for you, and keep you safe, just as long as you OBEY AND HELP TO ENFORCE THEIR RULES.

- Unknown author

[Akeem34TheDream]

People somehow managed to convince themselves that the relatively small number of sick old people who are affected by the virus

Small relative to what?

And do you really think its all about governments? Do governments even have any gain from this lockdown? All humanity is getting affected financially and mentally. But NO. We evil people are applauding evil governments to keep you home. Wow bro you are such a freedom warrior. I can understand that you disagree with this lockdown but what's with these conspiracy theories and agitations?

[~primetime~]

The Gov is out to enslave us all !!!

To me this is worse fear mongering than the threat of virus.

Also arrest numbers are down, jail populations are down, people are being released due to covid. For some this virus is literally freedom.

[~primetime~]

Small relative to what?

And do you really think its all about governments? Do governments even have any gain from this lockdown? All humanity is getting affected financially and mentally. But NO. We evil people are applauding evil governments to keep you home. Wow bro you are such a freedom warrior. I can understand that you disagree with this lockdown but what's with these conspiracy theories and agitations?

Exactly, Govs have nothing to gain but inflation.

And the countries who didnt take social distancing seriously (Italy) are the ones who suffered the most.

[Nanners]

Small relative to what?

~5k senior citizens die every day in america. in the 3 months since covid was first detected in the US, 16k people have "died" from it (the true death count is probably around a quarter of that)

~600k will die to cancer this year, should we crash our economy and give up our civil rights for them?

~70k americans died last year because they were unable to afford healthcare. We can afford to destroy the economy and put tens of millions out of work, but we cant afford to offer life saving medical care to 70k poor people?


And do you really think its all about governments? Do governments even have any gain from this lockdown? All humanity is getting affected financially and mentally. But NO. We evil people are applauding evil governments to keep you home. Wow bro you are such a freedom warrior. I can understand that you disagree with this lockdown but what's with these conspiracy theories and agitations?

Did you really just ask me if governments have anything to gain from taking away the rights of their people? lol

[tpols]

Exactly, Govs have nothing to gain but inflation.

And the countries who didnt take social distancing seriously (Italy) are the ones who suffered the most.

they're using it as political leverage to win elections.

you're going to be eating a loot of crow by the end of this.

[Nanners]

The Gov is out to enslave us all !!!

To me this is worse fear mongering than the threat of virus.

Also arrest numbers are down, jail populations are down, people are being released due to covid. For some this virus is literally freedom.

Its not actually the govt, its the wealthy interests that control the govt.

Anyway, nobody will ever have to enslave you... because you gladly enslave yourself.

[~primetime~]

they're using it as political leverage to win elections.

you're going to be eating a loot of crow by the end of this.

Politicians SHOULD focus on this event during election time.

What crow will I be eating? This being a big conspiracy will come to light?

No...the virus will go away, conspiracy theories will be forgotten, and people like you will move on to the next event to declare the Gov is out to get us all!

[~primetime~]

Only 3,000 died during the 9/11 attack. Should we have ignored that because that number is tiny relative to cancer deaths?

[BarberSchool]

We’ll never die, Nanners.
Those who wish to poison and destroy us will.

[Akeem34TheDream]

~5k senior citizens die every day in america. in the 3 months since covid was first detected in the US, 16k people have "died" from it (the true death count is probably around a quarter of that)

~600k will die to cancer this year, should we crash our economy and give up our civil rights for them?

~70k americans died last year because they were unable to afford healthcare. We can afford to destroy the economy and put tens of millions out of work, but we cant afford to offer life saving medical care to 70k poor people?



Did you really just ask me if governments have anything to gain from taking away the rights of their people? lol

Do you own a business, my friend? Because this level of ignorance can only come from some sort of bias. Governments can just ignore it and would probably be affected less financially(short term at least). NOBODY cares about you going outside or not(under normal circumstances). Priority wise making more money is a lot more important than keeping you home. But experts say that its better for long term. So put your back in your home, stop crying and stop victimizing yourself. And those numbers could be a lot more if no precautions were taken. Follow some international news. Widen your view.

[Nanners]

Only 3,000 died during the 9/11 attack. Should we have ignored that because that number is tiny relative to cancer deaths?

LOL, thank you for proving my point.

Like our response to covid, we made the worst possible choices when we responded to the Saudi/Israeli 9/11 attack by invading Afghanistan/Iraq and killing hundreds of thousands or millions of civilians (while making millions more homeless), passing the patriot act which normalized a mass surveillance system that was blatantly unconstitution, setting up a network of overseas black site prisons where we tortured the thousands of people we illegal kidnapped... all while wasting trillions of taxpayer dollars.

[tpols]

Politicians SHOULD focus on this event during election time.

What crow will I be eating? This being a big conspiracy will come to light?

No...the virus will go away, conspiracy theories will be forgotten, and people like you will move on to the next event to declare the Gov is out to get us all!

the crow where you bought into it all 1000% and tried fear mongering everybody quoting shit like a 14% death rate.

this shit has killed less than a regular cold or flu season and you ran with it full speed at the beginning.

[Nanners]

Do you own a business, my friend? Because this level of ignorance can only come from some sort of bias. Governments can just ignore it and would probably be affected less financially(short term at least). NOBODY cares about you going outside or not(under normal circumstances). Priority wise making more money is a lot more important than keeping you home. But experts say that its better for long term. So put your back in your home, stop crying and stop victimizing yourself. And those numbers could be a lot more if no precautions were taken. Follow some international news. Widen your view.

What an idiotic and condescendingly privileged point of view

You think that business owners are the only ones who want society to re-open? Half of all american workers cannot afford a $400 emergency, and while the virus has ended income for millions, it has not stopped their bills from piling up. Even in states with temporary no-eviction orders, people still owe rent for this month and they will be expected to pay the full amount in a month or two or whenver these no-eviction orders are lifted. In addition to the rent piling up, these people still have to pay for food, phone/internet, insurance, cars, etc...

The people who are being hurt the most by this are not the business owners, its the millions of people who are barely able to pay their bills each month.

[~primetime~]

the crow where you bought into it all 1000% and tried fear mongering everybody quoting shit like a 14% death rate.

this shit has killed less than a regular cold or flu season and you ran with it full speed at the beginning.

No quite the opposite...open up the covid thread, I was saying it was nothing to worry about from the start and that the media was over hyping the virus.

I didn't even think it would make it to the US after Trump shut down China travel.

Now that it is here...and we have the advantage of seeing what countries are having the most success vs which countries are suffering the most, we can see the countries who took this seriously are the ones fairing best. Wuhan had a fully enforced lock down and they are now open for business. Italy had a laid back attitude and are dealing with flooded hospitals and having more problems.

[Akeem34TheDream]

What an idiotic and condescendingly privileged point of view

You think that business owners are the only ones who want society to re-open? Half of all american workers cannot afford a $400 emergency, and while the virus has ended income for millions, it has not stopped their bills from piling up. Even in states with temporary no-eviction orders, people still owe rent for this month and they will be expected to pay the full amount in a month or two or whenver these no-eviction orders are lifted. In addition to the rent piling up, these people still have to pay for food, phone/internet, insurance, cars, etc...

The people who are being hurt the most by this are not the business owners, its the millions of people who are barely able to pay their bills each month.

Ok you are right. Everybody hurts from this situation. So tell me. Who wins? FORCES that want you to starve to death? When workers stop working everything starts to collapse. Of course its not gonna last forever.Who are you even complaining to? Do you even have a point? I dont think so. Writing poetic essays must be really fun. You really think that we should just ignore this virus, right? Why didn't anyone think of that? Countries all around the world must love shutting down. Such a great idea.

[Nanners]

Italy had a laid back attitude and are dealing with flooded hospitals and having more problems.

Italy was the first country to lock down in Europe :hammerhead:

[~primetime~]

Italy was the first country to lock down in Europe :hammerhead:

Their attitude toward the threat of virus was more laid back...from reports I've read anyway

New York the city has more cases than any country in the world...and I think SOME of the reason why is that they have that same IDGAF attitude...

[Nanners]

Ok you are right. Everybody hurts from this situation. So tell me. Who wins? FORCES that want you to starve to death? When workers stop working everything starts to collapse. Of course its not gonna last forever.Who are you even complaining to? Do you even have a point? I dont think so. Writing poetic essays must be really fun. You really think that we should just ignore this virus, right? Why didn't anyone think of that? Countries all around the world must love shutting down. Such a great idea.

I post an argument about how people are giving up their rights out of fear of covid... and you are asking me if I have a point?

Who are you even complaining to? Do you even have a point? I dont think so.

BTW I didnt write the essay you illiterate simpleton... thats why its attributed to "unknown author".

[Nanners]

Their attitude toward the threat of virus was more laid back...from reports I've read anyway

Sounds like you have been reading shitty reports then. Italy was the first to lock down, and their lock down has been one of the harshest.


New York the city has more cases than any country in the world...and I think SOME of the reason why is that they have that same IDGAF attitude...

So you think that the fact that NY has more cases than most entire countries is because of the cities "IDGAF attitude", rather the possibility that their numbers might be flawed?

[ZenMaster]

No quite the opposite...open up the covid thread, I was saying it was nothing to worry about from the start and that the media was over hyping the virus.

I didn't even think it would make it to the US after Trump shut down China travel.

Now that it is here...and we have the advantage of seeing what countries are having the most success vs which countries are suffering the most, we can see the countries who took this seriously are the ones fairing best. Wuhan had a fully enforced lock down and they are now open for business. Italy had a laid back attitude and are dealing with flooded hospitals and having more problems.

Hold up. Wuhan/China had flooded hospitals just like Italy and both also have a lockdown. It was also in China where they hid it on purpose, arresting doctors who were going public, that's much worse than a laid back attitude.

[Akeem34TheDream]

I post an argument about how people are giving up their rights out of fear of covid... and you are asking me if I have a point?

Who are you even complaining to? Do you even have a point? I dont think so.

BTW I didnt write the essay you illiterate simpleton... thats why its attributed to "unknown author".

They limit your rights for a period of time for the greater good. That's so obvious. But you make it seem like some people do it to gain power.
PS: I missed the unknown author part so sorry for that.

[~primetime~]

Sounds like you have been reading shitty reports then. Italy was the first to lock down, and their lock down has been one of the harshest.



So you think that the fact that NY has more cases than most entire countries is because of the cities "IDGAF attitude", rather the possibility that their numbers might be flawed?
The NY/NJ area basically accounts for 50% of the cases in the US. I think most of that can just be attributed to NYC being a massive city with lots of travelers...but they shouldn't be THAT much more infected than other big cities. All of California only has 20k cases. My own personal theory is that a difference in attitude is a factor. I have nothing to back it up...just my theory and it could be off.

[ZenMaster]

Ok you are right. Everybody hurts from this situation. So tell me. Who wins? FORCES that want you to starve to death? When workers stop working everything starts to collapse. Of course its not gonna last forever.Who are you even complaining to? Do you even have a point? I dont think so. Writing poetic essays must be really fun. You really think that we should just ignore this virus, right? Why didn't anyone think of that? Countries all around the world must love shutting down. Such a great idea.

Theoretically that would be individuals who already have a lot of wealth, who either own or work at companies of such size that they won't go bankrupt.
They can use their already accumulated private wealth to invest in the market and own company when prices are at the lowest, since they know it will come back again due to government support(taxpayer money) for their company.

Also, Democrats could potentially win the next presidental election if the crisis goes wrong and death is or appears to be everywhere.

[~primetime~]

Hold up. Wuhan/China had flooded hospitals just like Italy and both also have a lockdown. It was also in China where they hid it on purpose, arresting doctors who were going public, that's much worse than a laid back attitude.

Arresting doctors and hiding things is absolutely bad...yes.

Outside of that we can see that Wuhan taken down their makeshift hospitals has lifted the lockdown...businesses are up and running their. Regardless of what their numbers are, I think evidence points to their lockdown having helped speed up their recovery.

[Nanners]

They limit your rights for a period of time for the greater good. That's so obvious. But you make it seem like some people do it to gain power.
PS: I missed the unknown author part so sorry for that.

Right, just like the patriot act was temporary

[Nanners]

TMy own personal theory is that a difference in attitude is a factor. I have nothing to back it up...just my theory and it could be off.

I have something to back up my theory

https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/feds-classify-all-coronavirus-patient-deaths-as-covid-19-deaths/


The federal government is classifying the deaths of patients infected with the coronavirus as COVID-19 deaths, regardless of any underlying health issues that could have contributed to the loss of someone’s life.

Dr. Deborah Birx, the response coordinator for the White House coronavirus task force, said the federal government is continuing to count the suspected COVID-19 deaths, despite other nations doing the opposite.

“There are other countries that if you had a pre-existing condition, and let’s say the virus caused you to go to the ICU [intensive care unit] and then have a heart or kidney problem,” she said during a Tuesday news briefing at the White House. “Some countries are recording that as a heart issue or a kidney issue and not a COVID-19 death.

“The intent is … if someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that,” she added.

[HylianNightmare]

Me and the homies went to the park to excercise. Beautiful 90 degree day in central Florida

[Phong]

The NY/NJ area basically accounts for 50% of the cases in the US. I think most of that can just be attributed to NYC being a massive city with lots of travelers...but they shouldn't be THAT much more infected than other big cities. All of California only has 20k cases. My own personal theory is that a difference in attitude is a factor. I have nothing to back it up...just my theory and it could be off.NY City has a population density twice that of San Francisco and four times that of Los Angeles.

According to the 2010 Census, 9 out of the 10 most densely populated cities in the US are in NY and NJ. source (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population_density #)

Having people packed like sardines will greatly increase the rate of infection.

[Doomsday Dallas]

They limit your rights for a period of time for the greater good. That's so obvious. But you make it seem like some people do it to gain power.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u8vd_YNbTw

[~primetime~]

NY City has a population density twice that of San Francisco and four times that of Los Angeles.

According to the 2010 Census, 9 out of the 10 most densely populated cities in the US are in NY and NJ. source (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population_density #)

Having people packed like sardines will greatly increase the rate of infection.

That is absolutely a factor and I'm not trying to take that away. But what if we compare NYC to Wuhan, which is actually more populated than NYC? NYC actually has more cases than all of China. I suppose you could tell me that China is lying and actually has a bazillion cases, but we can see Wuhan is up and running again.

[Phong]

That is absolutely a factor and I'm not trying to take that away. But what if we compare NYC to Wuhan, which is actually more populated than NYC? NYC actually has more cases than all of China. I suppose you could tell me that China is lying and actually has a bazillion cases, but we can see Wuhan is up and running again. Do you honestly believe the Chinese numbers? Lest I've heard of Wuhan was the populace protesting/rioting. I'll lik into it.

[Stephonit]

The NY/NJ area basically accounts for 50% of the cases in the US. I think most of that can just be attributed to NYC being a massive city with lots of travelers...but they shouldn't be THAT much more infected than other big cities. All of California only has 20k cases. My own personal theory is that a difference in attitude is a factor. I have nothing to back it up...just my theory and it could be off.

A difference in attitude definitely has something to do with it. California closed schools earlier and enacted shelter-in-place before New York even though California had only a quarter of the cases New York did at the time.

The media trying to prop up Cuomo as some sort of leader in this crisis is sickening.

[Nanners]

That is absolutely a factor and I'm not trying to take that away. But what if we compare NYC to Wuhan, which is actually more populated than NYC? NYC actually has more cases than all of China. I suppose you could tell me that China is lying and actually has a bazillion cases, but we can see Wuhan is up and running again.

China has at least a dozen cities that are bigger than NYC, and these cities are highly connected with hundreds of bullet trains and daily flights between them.

Given the fact that the virus was likely active for many weeks or months before it was first officially detected in Wuhan, why would the outbreak in locked down NYC be so much larger than Shanghai or Bejing - cities that were much closer to the outbreak with much higher population density that were never really locked down?

edit: Also remember the Hong Kong protests? that feels like a long time ago, doesnt it? Isnt it interesting that Hong Kong has only had 4 total corona deaths, despite being one of the most highly travelled cities on the planet with a population over 7 million in the city and arguably the largest metro population of any city on the planet.

[Doomsday Dallas]

China has at least a dozen cities that are bigger than NYC, and these cities are highly connected with hundreds of bullet trains and daily flights between them.

Given the fact that the virus was likely active for many weeks or months before it was first officially detected in Wuhan, why would the outbreak in locked down NYC be larger than Shanghai or Bejing - cities that were much closer to the outbreak with much higher population density that were never really locked down?

this is something I personally will never understand.

there is no explanation for it..... none.... unless of course you dive into the realms of conspiracy theories, but other than that there is no reasonable explanation for this.

[Stephonit]

China has at least a dozen cities that are bigger than NYC, and these cities are highly connected with hundreds of bullet trains and daily flights between them.

Given the fact that the virus was likely active for many weeks or months before it was first officially detected in Wuhan, why would the outbreak in locked down NYC be so much larger than Shanghai or Bejing - cities that were much closer to the outbreak with much higher population density that were never really locked down?


Why should there be a delay of weeks or months before the virus is detected? Once people show up dying in the hospital it will be detected.

[tpols]

this is something I personally will never understand.

there is no explanation for it..... none.... unless of course you dive into the realms of conspiracy theories, but other than that there is no reasonable explanation for this.

there is an explanation for it.

NY is pumping up their numbers artificially. Its well documented their counting anybody that dies, it was from the virus even if it wasnt.

[Nanners]

Why should there be a delay of weeks or months before the virus is detected? Once people show up dying in the hospital it will be detected.

You just answered your own stupid ass question.

It takes a while for a virus to jump from an animal to a human, and then it takes a while to spread to other humans, and then it takes a while longer to put enough humans in the hospital for scientists to actually attempt to identify the exact virus and strain that is affecting people.

How many times have you gotten a cold/flu and gone to the hospital, and then had the hospital put in the effort to identify exactly which strain of virus you had?

[~primetime~]

Chinese cities had access to testing asap, unlike the US...also China is absolutely fudging numbers.

But I think Wuhan in particular is under a microscope and we can see it's recovering. There are people on social media posting vids of city life, etc.

Another thing to take into consideration is that many humans are going to practice social distancing and take precautionary measures regardless of what laws/rules are thrown out. You pointed out Italy was the first to lock down, but that doesn't mean residents stayed inside. And that's the difference in attitude I am talking about. South Korea, Japan, others handled up on the virus from the get go because the culture there took this shit seriously, unlike the culture of NYC.

[bigkingsfan]

Oh you big bad government across the world got together and implemented a flawless and coordinated attack.

[Doomsday Dallas]

there is an explanation for it.

NY is pumping up their numbers artificially. Its well documented their counting anybody that dies, it was from the virus even if it wasnt.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

China still has 81,000 cases.... as if it just magically stopped?

where are the massive spreads in cities like Shanghai or Bejing like you pointed out?

So you have this horrible outbreak in Wuhan but every other major city in China is perfectly fine? meanwhile: the USA currently has close to 500,000 cases?

yea... not buying it.... not calling the virus a hoax, but something is very f*cked with the data here.



people will try to explain this away without diving into conspiracy talk.... but it's impossible.

There is no way to explain this.

[andgar923]

:lol

[~primetime~]

Was travel within China banned to Wuhan? I don't even know

maybe that in conjunction with early access to testing...also the Chinese Gov straight up lying, they did that with other viruses, they don't want to be blamed for this mess.


But even if you take China out of the equation, NYC is doing poorly in comparison to...well everyone. They have handled this worse than any other city in the world

[Nanners]

Chinese cities had access to testing asap, unlike the US...also China is absolutely fudging numbers.

But I think Wuhan in particular is under a microscope and we can see it's recovering. There are people on social media posting vids of city life, etc.

Another thing to take into consideration is that many humans are going to practice social distancing and take precautionary measures regardless of what laws/rules are thrown out. You pointed out Italy was the first to lock down, but that doesn't mean residents stayed inside. And that's the difference in attitude I am talking about. South Korea, Japan, others handled up on the virus from the get go because the culture there took this shit seriously, unlike the culture of NYC.

You are beyond clueless... try doing a tiny bit of research before you start flapping your jaws.

First you claimed that Italy didnt take the virus seriously (despite having zero evidence to back up your claim)... while the reality is that Italy was the first european nation to institute a lockdown and their lockdown has been one of the strictist on the planet. Now you claim that South Korea and Japan are performing well because they had good precautionary measures, but the reality is that both countries had almost zero lockdown whatsoever.

Its almost like you took reality and then flipped it upside down, like you are trying to be as incorrect as possible.

[Stephonit]

You just answered your own stupid ass question.

It takes a while for a virus to jump from an animal to a human, and then it takes a while to spread to other humans, and then it takes a while longer to put enough humans in the hospital for scientists to actually attempt to identify the exact virus and strain that is affecting people.

How many times have you gotten a cold/flu and gone to the hospital, and then had the hospital put in the effort to identify exactly which strain of virus you had?

The process of a person catching a cold from another person can be pretty instantaneous, why should we think otherwise with the transmission from animal to human? How long does it take to put multiple people in the hospital with this disease? Less than a month going by how quickly it has spread. News of this was first heard outside China at the end of December. It was sequenced by the middle of January. There is nothing in the timeline to suggest this had to be brewed for much longer than what we've been told.

Why would a hospital want to identify the exact strain of virus if it was having success treating patients using conventional therapies? The reason it was identified was because treatment was proving ineffective.

Your defensiveness towards the questions I posed is dumb ass.

[~primetime~]

You are beyond clueless... try doing a tiny bit of research before you start flapping your jaws.

First you claimed that Italy didnt take the virus seriously (despite having zero evidence to back up your claim)... while the reality is that Italy was the first european nation to institute a lockdown and their lockdown has been one of the strictist on the planet. Now you claim that South Korea and Japan are performing well because they had good precautionary measures, but the reality is that both countries had almost zero lockdown whatsoever.

Its almost like you took reality and then flipped it upside down, like you are trying to be as incorrect as possible.

Did you even read my post? I am saying BEYOND the laws that are thrown out. Different cultures handle this situation differently regardless of what laws are thrown out. Go back and read again

[Draz]

Heres what I got out of this pandemic:

(1) Those that chose careers wisely are making a killing and are secure. I didn't think I was considered essential until this. Luckily my profession took me into the precise location to be needed. My wife is lucky she's in healthcare working in a hospital. Easily, our pockets are actually increasing because of this due to more hours.

(2) It's good to stockpile shit sometimes. When this all clears out, I'll be purchasing 15+ hand sanitizers, masks, and other important cleaning products. If it goes to waste, it goes to waste. I'd rather be prepared moving forward.

(3) The cleanliness of people was never considered before this. People moving forward will be washing their hands and caring for themselves more.

(4) IT still reigns king over other fields. Working remotely, secure salary, no hazards. This includes OVER healthcare.

(5) Making financially wise decisions like having an emergency fund IS vital and most important.

I'm waiting for house prices to drop. This would be the PERFECT time if any time in NYC to buy a house.

[Nanners]

Did you even read my post? I am saying BEYOND the laws that are thrown out. Different cultures handle this situation differently regardless of what laws are thrown out. Go back and read again

Did you read your posts?



And the countries who didnt take social distancing seriously (Italy) are the ones who suffered the most.


South Korea, Japan, others handled up on the virus from the get go because the culture there took this shit seriously, unlike the culture of NYC.

First you claimed that Italy didnt take the virus seriously... while the reality is that Italy was the first european nation to institute a lockdown, and their lockdown has been one of the strictist on the planet. Then you claim that South Korea and Japan are performing well because they had good precautionary measures, but the reality is that both countries had almost zero lockdown whatsoever.

Which part of your posts did I read incorrectly?

[BurningHammer]

Heres what I got out of this pandemic:

(1) Those that chose careers wisely are making a killing and are secure. I didn't think I was considered essential until this. Luckily my profession took me into the precise location to be needed. My wife is lucky she's in healthcare working in a hospital. Easily, our pockets are actually increasing because of this due to more hours.

(2) It's good to stockpile shit sometimes. When this all clears out, I'll be purchasing 15+ hand sanitizers, masks, and other important cleaning products. If it goes to waste, it goes to waste. I'd rather be prepared moving forward.

(3) The cleanliness of people was never considered before this. People moving forward will be washing their hands and caring for themselves more.

(4) IT still reigns king over other fields. Working remotely, secure salary, no hazards. This includes OVER healthcare.

(5) Making financially wise decisions like having an emergency fund IS vital and most important.

I'm waiting for house prices to drop. This would be the PERFECT time if any time in NYC to buy a house.
There actually is a great post in here. :cheers: :rockon: :applause:

[~primetime~]

Another thing to take into consideration is that many humans are going to practice social distancing and take precautionary measures regardless of what laws/rules are thrown out. You pointed out Italy was the first to lock down, but that doesn't mean residents stayed inside. And that's the difference in attitude I am talking about. South Korea, Japan, others handled up on the virus from the get go because the culture there took this shit seriously, unlike the culture of NYC.

These parts :oldlol:

I'm saying the attitude of the culture of the people is a factor...outside of the laws...come on man. :facepalm

[Draz]

There actually is a great post in here. :cheers: :rockon: :applause:

Thanks, a bonus would be opting into stocks now while they're low. I'm waiting for Tesla to drop more.

[Nanners]

These parts :oldlol:

I'm saying the attitude of the culture of the people is a factor...outside of the laws...come on man. :facepalm

So despite the fact that they never instituted any kind of serious lockdown in South Korea and Japan, they handled it better because they have a culture of not catching the common cold? Japan and South Korea are two of the most densely populated countries on the planet, the Japanese trains and subways service millions of riders every day, and yet they did not shut down for a single day over this virus... What specifically are you talking about when you refer to "attitude" and "culture".

[~primetime~]

So despite the fact that they never instituted any kind of serious lockdown in South Korea and Japan, they handled it better because they have a culture of not catching the common cold? Japan and South Korea are two of the most densely populated countries on the planet, the Japanese trains and subways service millions of riders every day, and yet they did not shut down for a single day over this virus... What specifically are you talking about when you refer to "attitude" and "culture".
https://theculturetrip.com/asia/japan/articles/why-do-japanese-people-wear-surgical-masks/

Japanese wear fcking surgical masks casually anyway and is one of the 'cleanest' cultures there is...you don't think that culture would fair better vs NYC's "idgaf" attitude???

The laws can only do so much...the culture of the people >>> laws

Get it now?

[Nanners]

https://theculturetrip.com/asia/japan/articles/why-do-japanese-people-wear-surgical-masks/

Japanese wear fcking surgical masks casually anyway and is one of the 'cleanest' cultures there is...you don't think that culture would fair better vs NYC's "idgaf" attitude???

The laws can only do so much...the culture of the people >>> laws

Get it now?

Japanese people getting on the subway in Tokyo (a subway system that didnt close for this "plandemic")

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/RecentAssuredFoxterrier-size_restricted.gif

No doubt their culture of wearing surgical masks is the reason there arent more sick people in Japan... and lets ignore the fact covid deaths are highly correlated with age and Japan has the oldest average age of any country on the entire planet.

[tpols]

So despite the fact that they never instituted any kind of serious lockdown in South Korea and Japan, they handled it better because they have a culture of not catching the common cold?


:roll:

[~primetime~]

here Nanners...this is what Italy was criticized for by many

https://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/608113/italy-coronavirus/

When the Italian media began reporting on the increased community spread of the novel coronavirus across the country, Olmo Parenti, like many Italian citizens, didn’t take the threat of the pandemic too seriously. “My friends and I were almost mocking the few people who believed the issue was serious from the get-go,” Parenti, a young filmmaker, told me.

Here is another

https://www.businessinsider.com/we-underestimated-it-talian-woman-urges-americans-coronavirus-epicenter-europe-2020-3

When news of the coronavirus first emerged, many people in Italy, Isabella Castoldi included, thought they were untouchable.

The COVID-19 virus originated in Wuhan, which is "very, very far away," Castoldi said. "We expected other countries that are much closer to China to be in this situation before us so we just joked about it. We were not afraid of it or anything."



The early culture of Italy was "this virus isn't a threat"

[LAmbruh]

Oh you big bad government across the world got together and implemented a flawless and coordinated attack.

It's just a flu bro


It's just a bio weapon bro

[Nanners]

The early culture of Italy was "this virus isn't a threat"

I could write a news article making the same claim about literally every country on the planet

Anyway, regardless of how many articles you are able to find saying that Italy didnt take things seriously, it doesnt change the FACT that Italy was the first nation in Europe to impose a lockdown, and it doesnt change the FACT that their lockdown rules were among the most strict in Europe.

[~primetime~]

I could write a news article making the same claim about literally every country on the planet

Anyway, regardless of how many articles you are able to find saying that Italy didnt take things seriously, it doesnt change the FACT that Italy was the first nation in Europe to impose a lockdown, and it doesnt change the FACT that their lockdown rules were among the most strict in Europe.

you made that point yes, and I am saying that lockdown doesn't matter if everyone in the country is ignoring and throwing house parties

as long as you finally get the angle...I'm good :lol

[brownmamba00]

The initial lockdown in Italy was actually very lax as northern italians fled to the south which in turn spread the virus throughout the country.



In its early stages, the Covid-19 crisis in Italy looked nothing like a crisis. The initial state-of-emergency declarations were met by skepticism by both the public and many in policy circles — even though several scientists had been warning of the potential for a catastrophe for weeks. Indeed, in late February some notable Italian politicians engaged in public handshaking in Milan to make the point that the economy should not panic and stop because of the virus. (A week later, one of these politicians was diagnosed with Covid-19.)

[Nanners]

you made that point yes, and I am saying that lockdown doesn't matter if everyone in the country is ignoring and throwing house parties

as long as you finally get the angle...I'm good :lol

:oldlol:

Your angle doesnt exist bro

You really think the number of "house parties" in countries like Italy, Spain and the US that are forcing their citizens to stay at home are the reason that their (supposed) death rates are so much higher than Japan and South Korea that have stayed open despite having far higher population density and some of the most highly used public transit systems on the planet?

[Nanners]

Germany has not issued any stay at home order, and yet their death rate for people who tested positive for covid is 0.3%... no doubt that must be because of their culture of hand sanitizer or something, right?

[bigkingsfan]

Germany has not issued any stay at home order, and yet their death rate for people who tested positive for covid is 0.3%... no doubt that must be because of their culture of hand sanitizer or something, right?
Germany is currently at 2.25%...

[Nanners]

Germany is currently at 2.25%...

Sorry, I didnt phrase that correctly. This is what I am talking about

https://reason.com/2020/04/09/preliminary-german-study-shows-a-covid-19-infection-fatality-rate-of-about-0-4-percent/


One often-heard statistic is the "case fatality rate"—that is, the percentage of people diagnosed with a disease who will die of it. This afternoon that figure stands at 3.5 percent for COVID-19 in the U.S., but this rate is significantly inflated because it does not count asymptomatic cases or undiagnosed people who recover at home. What we really need to know is the infection fatality rate: the percentage of all the people infected who eventually die of the disease. That's what the German study attempts to do.

Over the last two weeks, German virologists tested nearly 80 percent of the population of Gangelt for antibodies that indicate whether they'd been infected by the coronavirus. Around 15 percent had been infected, allowing them to calculate a COVID-19 infection fatality rate of about 0.37 percent. The researchers also concluded that people who recover from the infection are immune to reinfection, at least for a while.

[~primetime~]

:oldlol:

Your angle doesnt exist bro

You really think the number of "house parties" in countries like Italy, Spain and the US that are forcing their citizens to stay at home are the reason that their (supposed) death rates are so much higher than Japan and South Korea that have stayed open despite having far higher population density and some of the most highly used public transit systems on the planet?
I think the culture of the people matters...yes

and I think it's ONE of the reasons NYC is having issues...vs Japan who has a germ free culture, I mean obviously

but whatever...carry on with your mission

[Doomsday Dallas]

How many coronavirus cases does Beijing even have? just a couple of hundred?

but NY has a few hundred thousand?

yea... something is definitely wrong here... Beijing locked down when Wuhan was at 60,000+ cases.

[tpols]

Germany has not issued any stay at home order, and yet their death rate for people who tested positive for covid is 0.3%... no doubt that must be because of their culture of hand sanitizer or something, right?

sweden neither.

It's just their culture bro.

[Nanners]

I think the culture of the people matters...yes

and I think it's ONE of the reasons NYC is having issues...vs Japan who has a germ free culture, I mean obviously

but whatever...carry on with your mission

You can explain NYC vs Japan with "culture" if you want... how about NYC vs the rest of the world? The supposed NYC numbers make cities like London and Paris look quaint, do the people of NYC make the city unique on this planet with their prolific ability to transmit viruses? If its true that NYC culture facilitates the proliferation of viruses, why havent any past pandemics like swine or bird flu been devastating for NYC?

If NYC culture is the reason for their death rate, does that mean the rest of the country should be less worried about the virus and its death rate? After all, no other American city seems to have the unique culture for virus spreading that NYC has...

[tpols]

I live in north jersey... everybody here is wearing a mask and its a ghost town everywhere. People definitely do "give a ****".

NY is pumping up their numbers for political reasons. They get excited the higher the "score" is and report it everyday.

[bigkingsfan]

Sorry, I didnt phrase that correctly. This is what I am talking about

https://reason.com/2020/04/09/preliminary-german-study-shows-a-covid-19-infection-fatality-rate-of-about-0-4-percent/
Less deadly but more contagious still poses a problem. I've been saying from the beginning that it is under 1% if your health system can cope with it. Germany has been one of the best at it. Problem is, no one knows how long the immunity on this this last, if the different viral loads impact it. Percentage infected is nowhere near where you can achieve herd mentality.

[ZenMaster]

Less deadly but more contagious still poses a problem. I've been saying from the beginning that it is under 1% if your health system can cope with it. Germany has been one of the best at it. Problem is, no one knows how long the immunity on this this last, if the different viral loads impact it. Percentage infected is nowhere near where you can achieve herd mentality.

In countries that aren't nearly at maximum capacity for ICU and ventilators, does it not make sense to open up a bit on societal restrictions in order to speed up the overall percentage infected?
It feels like if it goes as slowly overall around the world as it's doing, the consequences of shutting down the economy for the prolonged period will be worse.

[Doomsday Dallas]

also the Chinese Gov straight up lying, they did that with other viruses, they don't want to be blamed for this mess.



glad to see you've changed your mind on this....



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?477454-Official-coronavirus-news-discussion-thread/page39


China gov does fcked up shit, but China has no reason to lie about numbers at this point. All of Wuhan turned into a ghost town. They couldn't panic any more than they already did.

you said something like that more than once... but that was the only quote I could find without going through the whole thread... and I couldn't have disagreed more every time you kept saying it.

[Nanners]

Less deadly but more contagious still poses a problem. I've been saying from the beginning that it is under 1% if your health system can cope with it. Germany has been one of the best at it. Problem is, no one knows how long the immunity on this this last, if the different viral loads impact it. Percentage infected is nowhere near where you can achieve herd mentality.

Less deadly but more contagious is not really a problem, ultimately only thing that really matters is the death rate. Why would we be shutting down our societies over this virus if nobody is dying from it?

Theres no such thing with herd immunity with viruses like Corona, its similar to influenza in the sense that the virus mutates too fast for vaccines or herd immunity to be effective (its also similar in the sense that the virus is relatively harmless).

[~primetime~]

glad to see you've changed your mind on this....



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?477454-Official-coronavirus-news-discussion-thread/page39



you said something like that more than once... but that was the only quote I could find without going through the whole thread... and I couldn't have disagreed more every time you kept saying it.

in that quote I am saying China Gov DOES fck with shit, and can't be trusted, they have proven that. But with Wuhan in particular, I do think it is under such a microscope that it is hard for them to skew too badly.

With the other Chinese cities...I think China just flat out isn't releasing numbers. Same with North Korea...who knows wtf is going on there....N Korea could be in complete shambles over this for all we know.



Also...just generally speaking...I think that the numbers for EVERY country are skewed in some way, for different reasons. I mean the death rates are so drastically different from one country to the next. Some countries aren't even calculating those who have recovered for one. And maybe some countries are pinning a covid case who died of cancer or a heart attack as that and not covid while other countries do the opposite.

[bladefd]

I bet OP is someone who talks tough on the net but leaves his house wearing a mask/gloves and washes his hands multiple times per day. I wonder if he keeps 6ft apart, doesn't gather in crowds and has gathered food in his basement to stay away from stores. I bet he has taken most of the precautions. Tough tough guy online but in reality he is doing everything he mocks others here for on ish.

[bigkingsfan]

Less deadly but more contagious is not really a problem, ultimately only thing that really matters is the death rate. Why would we be shutting down our societies over this virus if nobody is dying from it?

Theres no such thing with herd immunity with viruses like Corona, its similar to influenza in the sense that the virus mutates too fast for vaccines or herd immunity to be effective (its also similar in the sense that the virus is relatively harmless).
Nobody? We are having 2,000 daily deaths and states started shutting down weeks ago (if you mention the inflation rate, I can easily say there are undocumented deaths from people dying at home).

[LAmbruh]

Nanners and Tpols have been so embarrassingly off on their original takes dating back weeks ago


Now they're just slinging handfuls of mud hoping anything sticks :oldlol:

[Doomsday Dallas]

in that quote I am saying China Gov DOES fck with shit, and can't be trusted, they have proven that. But with Wuhan in particular, I do think it is under such a microscope that it is hard for them to skew too badly.

because too many people would have to be in on it? Is that why?

China Concealed Extent of Virus Outbreak, U.S. Intelligence Says
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-concealed-extent-of-virus-outbreak-u-s-intelligence-says



Suspect Reporting

The U.S. intelligence community’s conclusion is an attempt to divert attention from surging deaths in the U.S. and other Western countries, Hu Xijin, editor-in-chief of China’s state-run Global Times, said on his account on Chinese social media platform Weibo.

There was no way for serious data faking to occur in today’s China, especially for an incident that has drawn such widespread attention, Hu said. He said China managed to curtail the death toll in Hubei, the province where the virus first emerged late last year, by sending medical workers and equipment there from other parts of the country.

“To fake the casualty data, which departments will be deployed? Who will implement the plan?,” Hu said. “It will involve many different departments in many places to get the total numbers. If one of them is faking once, they have to fake it all the time. The risk of screwing up could be very high.”

[Nanners]

I bet OP is someone who talks tough on the net but leaves his house wearing a mask/gloves and washes his hands multiple times per day. I wonder if he keeps 6ft apart, doesn't gather in crowds and has gathered food in his basement to stay away from stores. I bet he has taken most of the precautions. Tough tough guy online but in reality he is doing everything he mocks others here for on ish.

:oldlol:

lol wow, youre getting pretty personal there, did I trigger you with my attempt to dispel the covid hysteria?

You're like the male equivalent of a desperate housewife, an ignorant jabroni who is endlessly flapping their useless mouth on topics that are far beyond their comprehension.

Anyway you are 100% correct about me. I am so terrified of catching a case of seasonal cold that I always wear a mask/gloves I have been "cowering in place" in my basement for weeks now. I do this tough guy routine online because I dont want anyone on this site to see through my completely anonymous identity because I dont want anyone to think I am a useless dickless bitchboy like you

[bladefd]

this is something I personally will never understand.

there is no explanation for it..... none.... unless of course you dive into the realms of conspiracy theories, but other than that there is no reasonable explanation for this.

There were reports that the death numbers in China were in hundreds of thousands and not just thousands as they claimed. Hundreds of thousands of new urns were stacked outside of funeral homes per day and caskets were filling up churches. I recall there being a gif someone posted with almost an endless number of ambulances traveling in Wuhan one after the other. For couple minutes, it was just ambulance after ambulance after ambulance. The death count was certainly much more than they presented publicly.

[Nanners]

Nobody? We are having 2,000 daily deaths and states started shutting down weeks ago (if you mention the inflation rate, I can easily say there are undocumented deaths from people dying at home).

Considering this country has 7,500 deaths a day, and considering the fact that the deaths are vastly overestimated (https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/feds-classify-all-coronavirus-patient-deaths-as-covid-19-deaths/)... its just another day at the tail end of cold/flu season


Dr. Deborah Birx, the response coordinator for the White House coronavirus task force, said the federal government is continuing to count the suspected COVID-19 deaths, despite other nations doing the opposite.

“There are other countries that if you had a pre-existing condition, and let’s say the virus caused you to go to the ICU [intensive care unit] and then have a heart or kidney problem,” she said during a Tuesday news briefing at the White House. “Some countries are recording that as a heart issue or a kidney issue and not a COVID-19 death.

“The intent is … if someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that,” she added.

[tpols]

the clerk at a gas station gave me mask, apparently you HAVE to wear one in stores now. i got kicked out of one yesterday.

this is approaching 1984 levels of authoritarianism.

[~primetime~]

because too many people would have to be in on it? Is that why?

China Concealed Extent of Virus Outbreak, U.S. Intelligence Says
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-concealed-extent-of-virus-outbreak-u-s-intelligence-says
Because the spotlight is too big. Maybe we don't know the true numbers of Wuhan...but I do think we can all see they are recovering

There are videos of Wuhan being posted all over social media...people have phones, it's under a spot light. Media reports all over. Since they just announced the lock down is lifted everyone is looking at them. The overall well being of the city isn't really something the Gov can hide from the rest of us.

[~primetime~]

I think one of the biggest topics coming out of this...should the UN step in and try to shut down the Wuhan Wet Markets?

IMO...YES...they are possible threat to the rest of the world

[bigkingsfan]

Considering this country has 7,500 deaths a day, and considering the fact that the deaths are vastly overestimated (https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/feds-classify-all-coronavirus-patient-deaths-as-covid-19-deaths/)... its just another day at the tail end of cold/flu season
The flu season doesn't kill 2,000 a day. Funny how you don't apply the same logic to flu deaths. Guess what, those people had pre-exisiting conditions too.

[bladefd]

:oldlol:

lol wow, youre getting pretty personal there, did I trigger you with my attempt to dispel the covid hysteria?

You're like the male equivalent of a desperate housewife, an ignorant jabroni who is endlessly flapping their useless mouth on topics that are far beyond their comprehension.

Anyway you are 100% correct about me. I am so terrified of catching a case of seasonal cold that I always wear a mask/gloves I have been "cowering in place" in my basement for weeks now. I do this tough guy routine online because I dont want anyone on this site to see through my completely anonymous identity because I dont want anyone to think I am a useless dickless bitchboy like you

You are right though, tough guy. This is all a vast conspiracy. All fake numbers. They are here to take our power away. Get your gun ready, they will be coming for you soon :oldlol:

Nanners, just remember to not wear a mask when you leave your house. Don't wash your hands. You don't need to. Don't use hand sanitizer either and do your business as usual. Also be sure to not get the coronavirus vaccine next year. You don't need it. This is all a conspiracy.

[Nanners]

The flu season doesn't kill 2,000 a day. Funny how you don't apply the same logic to flu deaths. Guess what, those people had pre-exisiting conditions too.

According to CDC, the average flu season kills 24k-62k americans.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/preliminary-in-season-estimates.htm

Covid has supposedly killed 18k americans in the almost 3 months since it was first detected in the US, and this number is using the laughably flawed assumption that every person who dies after testing positive for covid was killed by it (https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/feds-classify-all-coronavirus-patient-deaths-as-covid-19-deaths/), despite the VAST majority of deaths being elderly people with multiple other health problems.

Lets say an 82 year old lifelong smoker has emphysema and high blood pressure, and after testing positive for both corona and influenza he dies of pneumonia... we are classifying that as a corona death right now.

[Doomsday Dallas]

Because the spotlight is too big. Maybe we don't know the true numbers of Wuhan...but I do think we can all see they are recovering

There are videos of Wuhan being posted all over social media...people have phones, it's under a spot light. Media reports all over. Since they just announced the lock down is lifted everyone is looking at them. The overall well being of the city isn't really something the Gov can hide from the rest of us.

yea but what about all the videos of people being thrown into the back vans, the videos of people screaming that the issue is far worse than being reported. People do take these videos into account and they are dismissed as conspiracy.

the fact of the matter is this:

either China has millions of unreported cases, or NY and the USA are over exaggerating the issue. It's either one or the other.

[Nanners]

You are right though, tough guy. This is all a vast conspiracy. All fake numbers. They are here to take our power away. Get your gun ready, they will be coming for you soon :oldlol:

Nanners, just remember to not wear a mask when you leave your house. Don't wash your hands. You don't need to. Don't use hand sanitizer either and do your business as usual. Also be sure to not get the coronavirus vaccine next year. You don't need it. This is all a conspiracy.

Wow... based on your many years of consistently uninformed and idiotic posts, I always assumed you were completely retarded... but now it sounds like maybe you have finally found your senses :cheers:

[bladefd]

I think one of the biggest topics coming out of this...should the UN step in and try to shut down the Wuhan Wet Markets?

IMO...YES...they are possible threat to the rest of the world

It would have to be negotiated with actual ramifications if the Chinese don't listen. I don't think the UN would be forceful by itself.

[TheMan]

We are seeing the most draconian measures enforced at all levels of government that any of us have seen in our lifetimes, and yet rather than being alarmed by the things going on, so many of you applaud.

People are being arrested for spending too much time outside, and people applaud. A child's birthday party is raided by police, and people applaud. A young woman is ticketed for going on a leisurely drive alone because it's deemed "non-essential travel", and people applaud. A parade of school teachers and administrators who wanted to drive through neighborhoods and wave at children is busted up by cops because they were "nonessential," and people applaud. A lone paddle boarder in the ocean on a beach without any other people around is arrested because he's violating quarantine orders, and people applaud. Businesses are beings forcibly closed and padlocked and owners arrested for refusing to shut down, and people applaud. People are being denied life saving medical treatments because they're not a priority right now (not "essential" as deemed by the government) as the entirety of our medical system is focused on one thing, and people applaud.

People are told to use hotlines and online forms provided by their local governments to report their neighbors who don't obey, and they comply. People scold others day after day for not obeying government edicts, and if any of us dare to question what's happening, they get a lecture about how we're a danger to society and and we just don't care about people dying.

People somehow managed to convince themselves that the relatively small number of sick old people who are affected by the virus (people who would be affected by any virus) are much more important than the orders of magnitude more whose lives are being completely destroyed by the effects of a worldwide economic shutdown and impending worldwide depression the likes of which no one has ever seen before.

At what point will you start QUESTIONING what's going on? How far does the government have to push before you're jolted awake from your slumber?

If they told you to load your families onto train cars so that you could be taken to Virus Protection Facilities for your own safety, would you do it? Many of you would, and the whole time, you'd be shaking your finger and yelling at those of us who refused to take our families with you, accusing us of being "a danger to society" and "not caring if people die."

But they don't have to load you onto train cars and take you to Virus Protection Facilities, or force you to comply, because so many of you gladly do that voluntarily.

They control your mind by convincing you that the world is a scary dangerous place... but they're here to protect you, care for you, and keep you safe, just as long as you OBEY AND HELP TO ENFORCE THEIR RULES.

- Unknown author
Holy shit, has Nanners gone off the deep end :facepalm

[bigkingsfan]

According to CDC, the average flu season kills 24k-62k americans.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/preliminary-in-season-estimates.htm

Covid has supposedly killed 18k americans in the almost 3 months since it was first detected in the US, and this number is using the laughably flawed assumption that every person who dies after testing positive for covid was killed by it (https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/feds-classify-all-coronavirus-patient-deaths-as-covid-19-deaths/), despite the VAST majority of deaths being elderly people with multiple other health problems.

Lets say an 82 year old lifelong smoker has emphysema and high blood pressure, and after testing positive for both corona and influenza he does of pneumonia... we are classifying that as a corona death right now.
Why you avoiding the original question? Since when does the flu kill 2,000 a day. Comparing a study that we had on the flu for years to a virus going on for a few months.

Here is some flu data, the lab report for H1N1 was 3,642 deaths, when CDC had an estimate figure of 12,469 later on. You will see something familiar once this is over.

[Nanners]

Why you avoiding the original question? Since when does the flu kill 2,000 a day. Comparing a study that we had on flu for years to a new virus has been going on for a few months.

Here is some flu data, the lab report for H1N1 was 3,642 deaths, when CDC had an estimate figure of 12,469 later on. You will see something familiar once this is over.

The Flu will kill 2,000 a day when we start cooking the numbers like we are with covid

Corona is not a new virus in any way, its mutated strain of a very common virus that has dozens of known strains and is responsible for ~25% of common colds. The covid19 strain is supposedly new and scary, but as we gather more and more data the real death rate is getting closer and closer to the ~0.1% that we see with the other 30ish known strains of corona.

Heres some more flu data - the CDC says H1N1 killed 151k-570k worldwide (good luck reaching that with covid), and supposedly the spanish flu killed 50 million over ~2 years.

[~primetime~]

yea but what about all the videos of people being thrown into the back vans, the videos of people screaming that the issue is far worse than being reported. People do take these videos into account and they are dismissed as conspiracy.

the fact of the matter is this:

either China has millions of unreported cases, or NY and the USA are over exaggerating the issue. It's either one or the other.

in your black and white either or scenario...it would be China isn't reporting cases, not necessarily millions though

different countries and cultures are affected by this differently...we aren't all the same.

and countries with access to testing fair MUCH better than those without. We didn't have testing in the US until it was all over the place, we weren't able to isolate people. China was.

[Manny98]

OP is right, they are taking away are rights as human beings

Yesterday someone in my country got arrested for going into their own garden. My mother got threatened a fine by the store clerk if she bought a "non essential" item. Police are harrasing civilians for sitting outside in the Sun minding their own business.

Look at this shit. :facepalm
https://thedayumn.com/welcome-to-the-new-world-order-detroit-michigan-man-shows-how-stores-ban-people-from-buying-seeds-to-plant-their-own-food/

I can't believe people on this forum are actually defending these Draconian measures that are being placed like y'all are happy that your own human rights are being taking away? I feel like the fear mongering from this fake virus has turned 90% of society into brainwashed sheep

People who I thought were rational human beings have become mindless bots that obey everything that they have been told and don't question anything that's going on

[bigkingsfan]

The Flu will kill 2,000 a day when we start cooking the numbers like we are with covid

Corona is not a new virus in any way, its mutated strain of a very common virus that has dozens of known strains and is responsible for ~25% of common colds. The covid19 strain is supposedly new and scary, but as we gather more and more data the real death rate is getting closer and closer to the ~0.1% that we see with the other 30ish known strains of corona.

Heres some more flu data - the CDC says H1N1 killed 151k-570k worldwide (good luck reaching that with covid), and supposedly the spanish flu killed 50 million over ~2 years.
So nope, you couldn't find any evidence.

The global tally for this will easily surpass that, once studies are made. We are still 15 months away from a Vaccine.

[tpols]

People that "cough" on others are being given terrorist charges.

:roll:

you cant make this shit up. there still running with that bullshit term and its stigma.

i would never let them test or vaccinate me for this. they are trying to brand people.

[tpols]

So nope, you couldn't find any evidence.

The global tally for this will easily surpass that, once studies are made. We are still 15 months away from a Vaccine.

vaccines have a 10-20% efficacy rate on prevention for these viruses.

a vaccine doesnt mean jack shit.

[~primetime~]

So nope, you couldn't find any evidence.

The global tally for this will easily surpass that, once studies are made. We are still 15 months away from a Vaccine.

It should also be pointed out that we have no earthly idea what the death totals would be in the alternate timeline where there is no lock down and we all act like this is a common cold.

[bigkingsfan]

vaccines have a 10-20% efficacy rate on prevention for these viruses.

a vaccine doesnt mean jack shit.
Where are you getting 10-20% from exactly?


It should also be pointed out that we have no earthly idea what the death totals would be in the alternate timeline where there is no lock down and we all act like this is a common cold.
Yup, and we are still going to surpass that.

[~primetime~]

vaccines have a 10-20% efficacy rate on prevention for these viruses.

a vaccine doesnt mean jack shit.

the current 2019-20 flu vaccine has 45% success rate

it also lessons the symptoms for those who do get the flu...much less likely to go to ICU due to flu if you've been vaccinated

[Manny98]

It should also be pointed out that we have no earthly idea what the death totals would be in the alternate timeline where there is no lock down and we all act like this is a common cold.

Like in Sweden right now?

Weird how people aren't dropping dead like flys over there despite them pretty much going on as normal

[Stanley Kobrick]

the clerk at a gas station gave me mask, apparently you HAVE to wear one in stores now. i got kicked out of one yesterday.

this is approaching 1984 levels of authoritarianism.
wow how degrading. forcing you to get gas at their fuel depot for your car under their rules to protect their employees? we are at dictaratorian levels of degradation here. who do they think they are?


https://www.dictionary.com/e/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Karen.jpg

[Doomsday Dallas]

in your black and white either or scenario...it would be China isn't reporting cases, not necessarily millions though

different countries and cultures are affected by this differently...we aren't all the same.

and countries with access to testing fair MUCH better than those without. We didn't have testing in the US until it was all over the place, we weren't able to isolate people. China was.

honestly... even if 100% of China's population was tested.... it's not just going to suddenly stop at 80,000 cases.

they clearly just stopped reporting the numbers and most likely weren't reporting the official stats to begin with.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html
C.I.A. Hunts for Authentic Virus Totals in China, Dismissing Government Tallies


Bloomberg News first reported the C.I.A.’s assessment that China was underreporting its virus diagnoses and deaths. Officials played down a revelation about an intelligence report sent last week to the White House, saying that the C.I.A. has for several weeks told White House officials not to trust the numbers that Beijing was handing to the World Health Organization.

Trump can officially deflect all blame on China... and for good reason. They lied. Impossible that a city like Beijing didn't have a massive outbreak. NY with 500,000 cases but Beijing with only 500? No. Just No.

[warriorfan]

Only 3,000 died during the 9/11 attack. Should we have ignored that because that number is tiny relative to cancer deaths?

Probably. :lol

[Doomsday Dallas]

U.S. President Donald Trump said Wednesday that China’s reported virus data appear to be on the “light side” but that he hadn’t received an intelligence report saying the country had concealed the extent of its outbreak.

“Their numbers seem to be a little bit on the light side, and I’m being nice when I say that,”

Trump is being a little too nice here.

[Nanners]

So nope, you couldn't find any evidence.

The global tally for this will easily surpass that, once studies are made. We are still 15 months away from a Vaccine.

:oldlol:

Like I said, the Spanish flu supposedly killed ~50m people over 2 years. Since you seem to be incapable of basic math, 50m people over 2 years equals a death rate of ~7.4k per day, which is almost 4x larger than the comically inflated and obviously bogus corona death rate... but go ahead and keep talking about how I cant find evidence of a flu that has greater numbers than corona.

Any "vaccine" for corona will be like the influenza vaccine in the sense that it will only be marginally effective and require a new dose every single cold/flu season. Luckily for us, we dont need a vaccine, because the human body has been fighting various strains of corona and influenza and our immune systems are highly specialized to deal with these viruses. Ever heard of an antibody? Or Vitamin C?

[Nanners]

It should also be pointed out that we have no earthly idea what the death totals would be in the alternate timeline where there is no lock down and we all act like this is a common cold.

So in other words, we have no earthly idea whether destroying our economy and ordering people to "cower in place" actually had any benefit whatsoever :oldlol:

[tpols]

the current 2019-20 flu vaccine has 45% success rate

it also lessons the symptoms for those who do get the flu...much less likely to go to ICU due to flu if you've been vaccinated

its normal rate is less than that. they also have no way to accurately measure the data, its wild and all over the place based on ancedotal evidence.

But even if what youre saying is true... that means the majority of vaccinations have no effect. So the spread would easily continue regardless.

Man... yall ****ed up. bad.

[~primetime~]

honestly... even if 100% of China's population was tested.... it's not just going to suddenly stop at 80,000 cases.

they clearly just stopped reporting the numbers and most likely weren't reporting the official stats to begin with.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/us/politics/cia-coronavirus-china.html
C.I.A. Hunts for Authentic Virus Totals in China, Dismissing Government Tallies



Trump can officially deflect all blame on China... and for good reason. They lied. Impossible that a city like Beijing didn't have a massive outbreak. NY with 500,000 cases but Beijing with only 500? No. Just No.

I mean...I can't really disagree with you on this one Dooms

But they did have testing well before it hit 80,000...also, they isolated and restricted all travel in and out of Wuhan. That's huge too. We aren't doing that with NYC. I'm seeing some people in Wuhan weren't able to see their parents and stuff like that until now. Overall the Chinese Gov is more strict than ours.

[bigkingsfan]

:oldlol:

Like I said, the Spanish flu supposedly killed ~50m people over 2 years. Since you seem to be incapable of basic math, 50m people over 2 years equals a death rate of ~7.4k per day, which is almost 4x larger than the comically inflated and obviously bogus corona death rate... but go ahead and keep talking about how I cant find evidence of a flu that has greater numbers than corona.

Any "vaccine" for corona will be like the influenza vaccine in the sense that it will only be marginally effective and require a new dose every single cold/flu season. Luckily for us, we dont need a vaccine, because the human body has been fighting various strains of corona and influenza and our immune systems are highly specialized to deal with these viruses. Ever heard of an antibody? Or Vitamin C?
Read your previous post, it was obviously against H1N1.


the CDC says H1N1 killed 151k-570k worldwide (good luck reaching that with covid)

[~primetime~]

its normal rate is less than that. they also have no way to accurately measure the data, its wild and all over the place based on ancedotal evidence.

But even if what youre saying is true... that means the majority of vaccinations have no effect. So the spread would easily continue regardless.

Man... yall ****ed up. bad.

No read again, the people that still get the flu after being vaccinated have less symptoms. Older people are much less likely to go to ICU...even if they get the flu.

here:
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm

[diamenz]

don't worry about what everybody else thinks. if this is a breeze to you, go volunteer @ your local grocer without a mask. or @ your local hospital. i'm sure they'll find something 4 u 2 do in the covid unit.

[Nanners]

Read your previous post, it was obviously against H1N1.

Nonsense

Here was your original post on this topic


The flu season doesn't kill 2,000 a day. Funny how you don't apply the same logic to flu deaths. Guess what, those people had pre-exisiting conditions too.

and the follow up


Why you avoiding the original question? Since when does the flu kill 2,000 a day. Comparing a study that we had on the flu for years to a virus going on for a few months.

Here is some flu data, the lab report for H1N1 was 3,642 deaths, when CDC had an estimate figure of 12,469 later on. You will see something familiar once this is over.

[bigkingsfan]

Nonsense

Here was your original post on this topic



and the follow up

You are comparing to the Spanish flu now? Lol.
I gave you an example the numbers are under-reported more than anything.

[Manny98]

the clerk at a gas station gave me mask, apparently you HAVE to wear one in stores now. i got kicked out of one yesterday.

this is approaching 1984 levels of authoritarianism.

https://mobile.twitter.com/phillytru/status/1248656214642262016

[Hawker]

https://mobile.twitter.com/phillytru/status/1248656214642262016

Christ.

If we get back to some kind of normalcy though by wearing masks, fine.

I agree with the overall sentiment on this thread about overreaching government and it staying there. This is a time when it's nice to have a republican president.

[DoctorP]

stay woke

[falc39]

Nanners is absolutely right that we really need to be worried about government overreach and the real concern of rights being taken away. In the long run, it is the most important thing. People dying to the virus ultimately can’t cause our nation to fall, it would need to reach incredibly high and stratospheric numbers for that to happen. But losing some of our core values and freedoms can change the course of this nation permanently.

At the same time, if the COVID-19 impact to health is a lot lower than projected, it still serves as a warning about how unprepared this country is to handle any kind of pandemic health emergency, whether it was natural or weaponized. If a more lethal virus to occur, how would we be able to handle it? There are some really good points made on the culture of the people and how it can help mitigate the worst of consequences. If it were in our culture for citizens to take these things more seriously and responsibly, then maybe the government wouldn’t feel the need to overreach. It would be a win-win for us. What would it take for people to make better decisions on their own and how can we achieve that as a community without relying on draconian measures from our government?

Oh, and forget about the economy, it was already in shambles before the virus hit.

[falc39]

Christ.

If we get back to some kind of normalcy though by wearing masks, fine.

I agree with the overall sentiment on this thread about overreaching government and it staying there. This is a time when it's nice to have a republican president.


I really don’t mind the idea of wearing masks, either. It is a very small inconvenience with much greater benefits in a situation like this. Don’t know if I agree about republican presidents. Some of the worst overreaches from government have been from a recent republican president. Both parties are almost the same now.

[Hawker]

I really don’t mind the idea of wearing masks, either. It is a very small inconvenience with much greater benefits in a situation like this. Don’t know if I agree about republican presidents. Some of the worst overreaches from government have been from a recent republican president. Both parties are almost the same now.

I don't see current republicans trying to push their political issues with this crisis like democrats would (and have tried already with the stimulus bill).

While I agree with you about past republican overreaches, it's not exactly equivalent. Dems have been out of control with promoting big government intervention the past few years.

Just something I've noticed about you falc - you do tend to criticize republicans/republican posts heavy here (which is fine) but don't appear to do the same as much with democrats and democrat ideas. I like your comments on the fed and the interest rates over the past few years.

[falc39]

Just something I've noticed about you falc - you do tend to criticize republicans/republican posts heavy here (which is fine) but don't appear to do the same as much with democrats and democrat ideas. I like your comments on the fed and the interest rates over the past few years.

I can say I definitely have in the past. Once the term/administration is over, I’m definitely not going to focus on it as much since it isn’t really current news. I remember getting in a lot of arguments with people like KevinNYC and other Obama zealots for days. A lot of them left, including some of the most obnoxious ones, so that’s probably the reason I don’t feel the need to criticize as much. Trump’s election win has emboldened a lot of the people who were previously quiet and now they have become the most obnoxious (like the neocons). But in reality, they are really just different sides of the same coin and you will no doubt likely see me criticizing a hard left candidate if they were to win an election and started pushing the same kind of government interventions on us. There is really no differentiation between the two parties for me anymore, and it will probably appear that I criticize one more than the other based on which administration is currently in power and the makeup of this forum. In the end, I think we have fairly similar political/economic views :cheers:

[TheMan]

Christ.

If we get back to some kind of normalcy though by wearing masks, fine.

I agree with the overall sentiment on this thread about overreaching government and it staying there. This is a time when it's nice to have a republican president.

Lol, I wonder which party president Bush belonged to when he wrote the Patriot Act into existence...


:facepalm

[TheMan]

I know that OP is a Bernie Bro, he's for the little guy and against the elite so if this virus is a conspiracy by the elites, surely Bernie would call them on it, right?

Oh wait...

https://youtu.be/kukeJtpZEHk

Guess he's in on it too :rolleyes:

[RRR3]

I know that OP is a Bernie Bro, he's for the little guy and against the elite so if this virus is a conspiracy by the elites, surely Bernie would call them on it, right?

Oh wait...

https://youtu.be/kukeJtpZEHk

Guess he's in on it too :rolleyes:
He doesn't even like Bernie anymore. He just likes being a contrarian because it makes him feel smart. Safe to say he's just an asshole.

[Hawker]

Lol, I wonder which party president Bush belonged to when he wrote the Patriot Act into existence...


:facepalm

Passed Congress.

Obama extended it when the opportunity came.

[bladefd]

I don't see current republicans trying to push their political issues with this crisis like democrats would (and have tried already with the stimulus bill).

While I agree with you about past republican overreaches, it's not exactly equivalent. Dems have been out of control with promoting big government intervention the past few years.

Just something I've noticed about you falc - you do tend to criticize republicans/republican posts heavy here (which is fine) but don't appear to do the same as much with democrats and democrat ideas. I like your comments on the fed and the interest rates over the past few years.

Really? Not equivalent? You have very short-term memory, huh? Quick to forget that every time a Republican takes office, spending/deficit goes up the wazoo. Democrat takes office, the deficit usually comes down. You would expect the exact opposite but results say otherwise. When Republicans are out of office, they cry about debt & deficits. When they are in office, not only do they forget what they were saying about debt & deficit but they also drive it up. That's a fact.

So actually, one can claim the facts are exactly opposite of what you say. While I agree with you about past Democrat overreaches, it's not exactly equivalent. Reps have been out of control with promoting big government intervention the past few decades.

[warriorfan]

Officials outlined the stark paths ahead for Los Angeles County. If the stay-at-home order was quickly rescinded and people resumed their normal habits, an astonishing 95.6% of L.A. County residents would be infected with the coronavirus by Aug. 1, according to projections released by the county.


Should we just close everything down forever then? Is that the endgame here? It seems like everyone is going to get it eventually...Survival of the fittest. Time to get this show on the road.

[imdaman99]

They took down the basketball rims at my park and shut down the rest of my park. I can't do anything active (because I HATE running/jogging). Basketball is my cardio, it's my anti-drug. I need it to escape reality. I was only shooting around alone, and playing tennis against the wall ALONE. And I can't do it right now. This sucks. But at least I'm healthy... right? Worst shape of my life. Small groups of people ruin it for everyone else, because I did see people still playing in groups.

[Cleverness]

OP is 100% correct

$2 trillion in big gov't spending

Billions for the gov't and their friends

The leftovers will trickle-down back to the people

https://imagehost.imageupload.net/2020/04/11/EVSWBCLUEAEtYRt.jpg

Big Brother in the UK threatening to inspect citizens shopping carts and deem which items are essential/non-essential https://twitter.com/RTaylorUK/status/1248204770977996800




Oh you big bad government across the world got together and implemented a flawless and coordinated attack.

No need for them to coordinate it.

It's natural that all governments grow.

They all hunger for more money/power/control and the coronovirus is a golden opportunity to do just that.

[coin24]

Police handing out hundreds of fines at $1000 a pop if you don't meet one of the approved reasons to be outside:facepalm
So shopping centres are ok, but "going for a drive" by yourself is dangerous.

Do the sheep really think things just go back to normal after this? How can they when so many have lost everything? And for what? A few oldies and other sick people dying?

How can anyone say it was worth collapsing everything for this total bulshit flu

[DoctorP]

those without the ability to wipe their butts with toilet paper deserve no toilet paper. Like OP

[Im so nba'd out]

Couldnt last forever


We had a good run

[DoctorP]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mel47B1K8E

[BarberSchool]

this is something I personally will never understand.

there is no explanation for it..... none.... unless of course you dive into the realms of conspiracy theories, but other than that there is no reasonable explanation for this.there are two perfectly reasonable explanation for this:

1. CCP literally for all of December and January stifled any reports of real numbers, influenced the W.H.O. To issue a report stating that human to human transmission was not true. China also stopped testing in early March and their numbers do not represent reality in the same way US numbers do.

2. Also on the flip side, NY and other states actually are influencing doctors to list covid-19 as cause of death even where no positive test ever occurred. A local Minnesota station had a physician reporting this and its extremely upsetting. It is suspected that elements within media want inflated numbers for several reasons: ratings & political advantage for upcoming election season. It’s disgusting.

[bladefd]

there are two perfectly reasonable explanation for this:

1. CCP literally for all of December and January stifled any reports of real numbers, influenced the W.H.O. To issue a report stating that human to human transmission was not true. China also stopped testing in early March and their numbers do not represent reality in the same way US numbers do.

2. Also on the flip side, NY and other states actually are influencing doctors to list covid-19 as cause of death even where no positive test ever occurred. A local Minnesota station had a physician reporting this and its extremely upsetting. It is suspected that elements within media want inflated numbers for several reasons: ratings & political advantage for upcoming election season. It’s disgusting.

What evidence do you have to support point 2?

[TheMan]

What evidence do you have to support point 2?

None as usual, just a hunch or Trump told him so...

[bladefd]

I can't believe we are a month into stay at home orders for 1 month and people are panicking "WAWA, THEY TOOK AWAY MY FREEDOM. TYRANNICAL GOVERNMENT IS TAKING OVER!! MY RIGHTS ARE GONE, MY LIFE IS OVER."

People are so shortsighted. They can't even look at the big picture or look beyond next day or next week. That includes OP, who is also very much shortsighted. Getting off-topic but Bernie loses in 2016 and instead of commending the changes Bernie was able to push into the Democrat party, he turns on Bernie, calls him out (might have actually called Bernie a coward) and goes on to vote Trump for revenge. What he doesn't understand is that it takes time and patience to drastically change around a party and take back power from the establishment, who built up their tight grasp over last 50yrs. You don't just change that around over a single election. Parties have often historically taken several elections to change platforms. Bernie will be able to push for even more changes this year, but I bet nanners will just go vote Trump. He is shortsighted and only looking at today rather than tomorrow.

[tpols]

They took down the basketball rims at my park and shut down the rest of my park. I can't do anything active (because I HATE running/jogging). Basketball is my cardio, it's my anti-drug. I need it to escape reality. I was only shooting around alone, and playing tennis against the wall ALONE. And I can't do it right now. This sucks. But at least I'm healthy... right? Worst shape of my life. Small groups of people ruin it for everyone else, because I did see people still playing in groups.

Welcome to 1984.

[DoctorP]

Welcome to 1984.

let em get sick.

let em die.

natural selection.

these conspiracy theorists should get out there and shake all the hands they want.

[Nanners]

I know that OP is a Bernie Bro, he's for the little guy and against the elite so if this virus is a conspiracy by the elites, surely Bernie would call them on it, right?

Oh wait...

https://youtu.be/kukeJtpZEHk

Guess he's in on it too :rolleyes:

:oldlol:

Only an obedient sheep like you would think that when you support someone as a presidential candidate, you have to let that person dictate all of your opinions. I didnt support Bernie because I agreed with 100% of his platform and statements, I supported him because hes obviously a FAR better candidate than any of the lying neoliberal sociopaths in the dem primary.

Anyway, in regard to the video you linked, I 100% agree with Bernie about the importance of universal healthcare and income support for the working class... regardless of whether the so-called "health experts" claims about the danger of covid are real, there is no question that the ~20m newly unemployed americans are real and the ~90m americans who are uninsured or underinsured are real.


He doesn't even like Bernie anymore. He just likes being a contrarian because it makes him feel smart. Safe to say he's just an asshole.

I still like Bernie, I'm just angry that he betrayed his supporters by being too much of a goddamn ***** to get his hands dirty fighting Biden and the democrats.

But yeah, its very safe to say that I am an asshole... safest statement of the decade.

[ZenMaster]

What evidence do you have to support point 2?

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/coronavirus/Alert-2-New-ICD-code-introduced-for-COVID-19-deaths.pdf


If the death certificate reports terms such as “probable COVID-19” or “likely COVID-19,” these terms would be
assigned the new ICD code. It Is not likely that NCHS will follow up on these cases.

Meaning that if you as a doctor don't do a test, but report "probable COVID-19", then no one will ask any questions or require a test to confirm.

[rawimpact]

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/coronavirus/Alert-2-New-ICD-code-introduced-for-COVID-19-deaths.pdf



Meaning that if you as a doctor don't do a test, but report "probable COVID-19", then no one will ask any questions or require a test to confirm.

ICD codes have always had probable diagnosis... they exist because working diagnosis are needed - not everything is cut and clear without testings, and as we've seen it takes time for testing to be made available. This is not true for just COVID - you see it in every branch of medicine. Headaches/migraines are another example of this where it can both be a symptom and cause or primary diagnosis.

[ZenMaster]

ICD codes have always had probable diagnosis... they exist because working diagnosis are needed - not everything is cut and clear without testings, and as we've seen it takes time for testing to be made available. This is not true for just COVID - you see it in every branch of medicine. Headaches/migraines are another example of this where it can both be a symptom and cause or primary diagnosis.

I realize that, but this situation is still different.

The media generally don't write anything in regards to what you write here, instead it's just "dead from coronavirus". We have no idea how many of these people would have died anyways from their underlying health concern.

Then there's the second problem with the instructions in the memo:

If you suspect someone has a coronavirus or another kind of flu but do not identify the specific strain(and flu strains exist just as much now as they did 3 months ago), NHCS will ask states to follow up and verify whether it was Covid19 or not.

Since doctors aren't asked to do the opposite(verify whether or not it was Covid19 if that is what they suspect), it means that not putting Covid19 on the death certificate will increase both your personal workload as well as other parts of hospitals, e.g which would then be spending time testing for something different than Covid19.
Add to that, at least from what I've read, hospitals will receive monetary compensation from the government for treating uninsured Covid19 patients.

This means that there's actually real incentive here to fudge the numbers on a local level, e.g when it comes to homeless people who've died within the Covid19 period as no one will ask questions if you diagnose them as "Probable Covid19, symptoms: coughing and shortness of breath".

Steven Schwartz admits at the start of the memo as well, that these guidelines will result in Covid19 being put on the death certificate as the underlying cause more often than not.

Correct me if I'm wrong please, but that's how the memo reads to me.

[Manny98]

Police are literally breaking into people's homes now here in England :roll::roll:, welcome to police state Britain


https://youtu.be/Wvrj2jKr98g

[bladefd]

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/coronavirus/Alert-2-New-ICD-code-introduced-for-COVID-19-deaths.pdf



Meaning that if you as a doctor don't do a test, but report "probable COVID-19", then no one will ask any questions or require a test to confirm.

So we are banking on an ICU doctor's judgment to label it as covid death or not.

Doctor might be wrong but... you want us to disregard what the ICU doctor's judgment is and label it as some other cause of death even if the doctor strongly believes it was a covid-19 death? Is that what you want?

Documentations require a cause of death and time of death so probable cause of death AKA ICU/emergency room doctor's judgment is often the best you can do in normal situations and situations like these.

[ZenMaster]

So we are banking on an ICU doctor's judgment to label it as covid death or not.

Doctor might be wrong but... you want us to disregard what the ICU doctor's judgment is and label it as some other cause of death even if the doctor strongly believes it was a covid-19 death? Is that what you want?

Documentations require a cause of death and time of death so probable cause of death AKA ICU/emergency room doctor's judgment is often the best you can do in normal situations and situations like these.

No, I wan't you to not try and cause a panic. To not present numbers from the media as apocalyptic facts on how we're doomed.

And then there's this:

If you suspect someone has a coronavirus or another kind of flu but do not identify the specific strain(and flu strains exist just as much now as they did 3 months ago), NHCS will ask states to follow up and verify whether it was Covid19 or not.

Since doctors aren't asked to do the opposite(verify whether or not it was Covid19 if that is what they suspect), it means that not putting Covid19 on the death certificate will increase both your personal workload as well as other parts of hospitals, e.g which would then be spending time testing for something different than Covid19.
Add to that, at least from what I've read, hospitals will receive monetary compensation from the government for treating uninsured Covid19 patients.

This means that there's actually real incentive here to fudge the numbers on a local level, e.g when it comes to homeless people who've died within the Covid19 period as no one will ask questions if you diagnose them as "Probable Covid19, symptoms: coughing and shortness of breath".

This is bad, because in life, if people have incentive to cheat, they will.

[TheMan]

Police are literally breaking into people's homes now here in England :roll::roll:, welcome to police state Britain


https://youtu.be/Wvrj2jKr98g
Don't like it? Go back to the Philippines where Duterte is a covid19 conspiracy theorist like you.

[bigkingsfan]

This is bad, because in life, if people have incentive to cheat, they will.
You do know that it works both ways too?
NY has yet to count the home deaths.

And a lot of missing info from the Nursing homes.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2020/04/13/coronavirus-nursing-homes-2-300-facilities-report-positive-cases/2978662001/

The under-reporting is much greater at this point.

[Manny98]

Don't like it? Go back to the Philippines where Duterte is a covid19 conspiracy theorist like you.

Df are you blabbering about

On what planet is police breaking into someone's home for no legitimate reason accepteble :facepalm

[ZenMaster]

You do know that it works both ways too?
NY has yet to count the home deaths.

And a lot of missing info from the Nursing homes.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2020/04/13/coronavirus-nursing-homes-2-300-facilities-report-positive-cases/2978662001/

The under-reporting is much greater at this point.

Can you explain to me why these numbers wouldn't be tallied in the overall death numbers?

We know from the CDC memo, that physicians only need to assume Covid19 to put it on the death certificate, why wouldn't that have happened in these cases? You're saying the care facilities themselves have incentive not to tag the deaths as Covid19 even if they showed symptoms?

[bigkingsfan]

Can you explain to me why these numbers wouldn't be tallied in the overall death numbers?

We know from the CDC memo, that physicians only need to assume Covid19 to put it on the death certificate, why wouldn't that have happened in these cases? You're saying the care facilities themselves have incentive not to tag the deaths as Covid19 even if they showed symptoms?
It's like this across the world, with limited testing and resources who is going to go back and do a complete autopsy on the dead, when we should prioritize the living.

[ZenMaster]

It's like this across the world, with limited testing and resources who is going to go back and do a complete autopsy on the dead, when we should prioritize the living.

You don't need to do an autopsy to write Covid19 on death certificates, the memo clearly states that, so I don't see why these numbers wouldn't be included in the official death tally as it currently stands.

[bigkingsfan]

You don't need to do an autopsy to write Covid19 on death certificates, the memo clearly states that, so I don't see why these numbers wouldn't be included in the official death tally as it currently stands.
These people were never tested in the first place. Even then it's up to each state to release the data.
"Thirteen states could only provide partial data, citing various reasons including that they were not tracking deaths specifically in nursing homes or couldn’t separate staff and residents who have tested positive."

[ZenMaster]

These people were never tested in the first place. Even then it's up to each state to release the data.
"Thirteen states could only provide partial data, citing various reasons including that they were not tracking deaths specifically in nursing homes or couldn’t separate staff and residents who have tested positive."

But doesn't that mean, that the state just doesn't have a tally for nursing home covid19 deaths vs non-nursing home covid19 deaths?

If what you're saying here is right, that means people in nursing homes who die after showing respiratory symptoms are classified as either unknown cause of death, or as pneumonia or the like. Yes? So I ask, what's the incentive for this to be happening?

Again, you do not need to be tested positive in order to be counted in the overall death tally, the disease only needs to be suspected. So if someone dies at a nursing home and the physician at the place suspect a death fully or partial from Covid19, then it will be tagged as Covid19 and count in the overall death tally, fully in line with the CDC guidelines.

[bigkingsfan]

But doesn't that mean, that the state just doesn't have a tally for nursing home covid19 deaths vs non-nursing home covid19 deaths?

If what you're saying here is right, that means people in nursing homes who die after showing respiratory symptoms are classified as either unknown cause of death, or as pneumonia or the like. Yes? So I ask, what's the incentive for this to be happening?

Again, you do not need to be tested positive in order to be counted in the overall death tally, the disease only needs to be suspected. So if someone dies at a nursing home and the physician at the place suspect a death fully or partial from Covid19, then it will be tagged as Covid19 and count in the overall death tally, fully in line with the CDC guidelines.
I don't know the process of each state. Here's NY stance :

"New York City officials will begin to count suspected COVID-19 deaths in addition to cases confirmed by a laboratory, following a WNYC/Gothamist report revealing a staggering increase in the number of people dying at home but not included in the official tally because they hadn't been tested for the novel coronavirus."

Mayor Bill de Blasio acknowledged on Tuesday that the vast majority of deaths taking place at home were likely also due to COVID-19, the disease caused by the virus, meaning the death toll could be as much as 70% higher than currently reported figures.

"We do want to know the truth about every death at home, but it's safe to assume that the vast majority are coronavirus related," he said. "That makes it even more sober, the sense of how many people we are losing."

We'll see if they follow through.

[Doomsday Dallas]

This is all that matters:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPer2fGu1Ms



bottom line:

our economy is going straight to hell.

[Doomsday Dallas]

Couldnt last forever


We had a good run




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4za1oe6sHIc

[~primetime~]

This is all that matters:

bottom line:

our economy is going straight to hell.
"printing money" worked for the last recession...I think it only implodes if you do it regularly and print into hyperinflation

another thing...the "shhhhhh, it's all fake, it's not really worth anything, its all based on faith, etc"...that is the case with EVERYTHING outside of flat out bartering goods and services and not having a currency. Gold is based on "faith"... "shhhh, don't tell anyone that gold is really just a worthless rock in the ground". BTC is all faith based..."sshhhhh...don't tell anyone that BTC is just useless code in cyberspace"

The US dollar is what is issued by the US Gov as a token of exchange...as US citizens we all agree to use the US Dollar. To me that fact in itself holds value.

[Doomsday Dallas]

"printing money" worked for the last recession...I think it only implodes if you do it regularly and print into hyperinflation

another thing...the "shhhhhh, it's all fake, it's not really worth anything, its all based on faith, etc"...that is the case with EVERYTHING outside of flat out bartering goods and services and not having a currency. Gold is based on "faith"... "shhhh, don't tell anyone that gold is really just a worthless rock in the ground". BTC is all faith based..."sshhhhh...don't tell anyone that BTC is just useless code in cyberspace"

The US dollar is what is issued by the US Gov as a token of exchange...as US citizens we all agree to use the US Dollar. To me that fact in itself holds value.


printing money only hurts us in the long run. If it worked so well last recession... why do you have millions upon millions of liberals today complaining that they can't stay above water financially?

Unemployment was at it's lowest and yet you have all these people still complaining about the cost of living.

It doesn't have to be HYPERinflation for the bottom 10% to be completely f*cked.... printout another $10 Trillion, and then the bottom 20% are f*cked in 5-10 years.

printout another $20 Trillion and eventually the bottom 30% of the country are f*cked.


it's a constant cycle of musical chairs... but because our inflation doesn't have the word HYPER in front of it... I guess all is well.... we can keep the printing presses running... because who notices a slow death?

And it's far much easier to lose faith in the US Government (which many people are losing that faith), compared to a rock in the ground (that you can't print) that has held value since the beginning of time.

when you have a madman in the white house... do you not see how it might be possible the rest of the world could lose faith in the US dollar?

[~primetime~]

printing money only hurts us in the long run. If it worked so well last recession... why do you have millions upon millions of liberals today complaining that they can't stay above water financially?

Unemployment was at it's lowest and yet you have all these people still complaining about the cost of living.

It doesn't have to be HYPERinflation for the bottom 10% to be completely f*cked.... printout another $10 Trillion, and then the bottom 20% are f*cked in 5-10 years.

printout another $20 Trillion and eventually the bottom 30% of the country are f*cked.


it's a constant cycle of musical chairs... but because our inflation doesn't have the word HYPER in front of it... I guess all is well.... we can keep the printing presses running... because who notices a slow death?

And it's far much easier to lose faith in the US Government (which many people are losing that faith), compared to a rock in the ground (that you can't print) that has held value since the beginning of time.

when you have a madman in the white house... do you not see how it might be possible the rest of the world could lose faith in the US dollar?
It doesn't matter how much money is in circulation if it all just trickles to the top and stays there...that has nothing to do with "printing money"...that is a flaw in how it's being spread around.

2% inflation is healthy...that isn't a slow death at that rate...that is healthy growth. A slow death would be like 5% inflation a year...but we aren't doing that

It is a worthless battle to try and convince Americans that their dollars are worthless...The day that everyone in the country all throws their money in the garbage and declares it worthless will NEVER EVER EVER come...EVER.......EVER EVER

[Doomsday Dallas]

It is a worthless battle to try and convince Americans that their dollars are worthless...The day that everyone in the country all throws their money in the garbage and declares it worthless will NEVER EVER EVER come...EVER.......EVER EVER

because that's the argument I was making... that the US dollar is worthless. That's exactly what I said.

[falc39]

"printing money" worked for the last recession...I think it only implodes if you do it regularly and print into hyperinflation

another thing...the "shhhhhh, it's all fake, it's not really worth anything, its all based on faith, etc"...that is the case with EVERYTHING outside of flat out bartering goods and services and not having a currency. Gold is based on "faith"... "shhhh, don't tell anyone that gold is really just a worthless rock in the ground". BTC is all faith based..."sshhhhh...don't tell anyone that BTC is just useless code in cyberspace"

The US dollar is what is issued by the US Gov as a token of exchange...as US citizens we all agree to use the US Dollar. To me that fact in itself holds value.

We are nearing the end of a long economic cycle which will be completed by a very hard crash, one that could take many years to fully realize. You will be able to tell when it is nearing implosion when the central bank has no more weapons to keep pumping the economy with. It’s getting to that point. The fed’s action right now make 2008 look like child’s play, but the supposed benefits are obviously diminishing. There will be a time when we will get no more stimulus effect no matter how much is printed, and that is when we will be in deep trouble. There are a number of really bad things that can happen here. The collapse of the economy and world economy can mark a shift away from the dollar as the world’s reserve currency. If this happens peacefully, I would actually consider that a good outcome, because historically when you have such a large divide of wealth between a nation, it could actually turn into a bloodshed and violent revolution, followed by a permanent change in our government.

[Doomsday Dallas]

https://dailyreckoning.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Russia-Gold-Reserves.jpg


So what's the point of Russia buying Gold? What would possibly posses this country (the country that the democrats fear most) to buy more gold?

[~primetime~]

because that's the argument I was making... that the US dollar is worthless. That's exactly what I said.

yeah and I'm saying that argument is useless...no one is going to throw their money away

if US Dollars are worthless...can I have all your US Dollars?...see that?

[~primetime~]

Imagine there was never any inflation...and a lobster dinner is still 50 cents like the it was in the 1920s

if we never inflated from that with our growing population things would be much worse...and the Gov wouldn't even have the ability to inject value into areas of society when they are in need, the Gov would have to borrow from the wealthy to do that, and the rich would be that much more in control of everything

[Doomsday Dallas]

Imagine there was never any inflation...and a lobster dinner is still 50 cents like the it was in the 1920s

if we never inflated from that with our growing population things would be much worse...and the Gov wouldn't even have the ability to inject value into areas of society when they are in need, the Gov would have to borrow from the wealthy to do that, and the rich would be that much more in control of everything

yea but the average person's income doesn't inflate at the same rate with the cost of living. That's the issue.

you may have been able to survive off $15 an hour in the year 2000.... can't do it in the year 2020.

[~primetime~]

yea but the average person's income doesn't inflate at the same rate with the cost of living. That's the issue.

you may have been able to survive off $15 an hour in the year 2000.... can't do it in the year 2020.
yep that's what I posted earlier...our issues are how the money is spread around, our salaries are too low

The amount in circulation doesn't matter if it's all controlled by 1% of the population

[Doomsday Dallas]

The amount in circulation doesn't matter if it's all controlled by 1% of the population

So it doesn't matter if we pump in $10 trillion of freshly printed bills because the 1% owns it all anyway?

it's the purchasing power of the dollar... if $50 trillion is in circulation, and that figure suddenly jumps to $60 trillion. the dollar loses about 20% of it's value.

So here in a few years... Everything will cost will 20% more, but your salary will be relatively the same... and when nobody can afford $hit.... we just keep printing more money for bailouts?

[Doomsday Dallas]

The collapse of the economy and world economy can mark a shift away from the dollar as the world’s reserve currency.

replaced by who's currency? Russia's? China's?

[~primetime~]

So it doesn't matter if we pump in $10 trillion of freshly printed bills because the 1% owns it all anyway?

it's the purchasing power of the dollar... if $50 trillion is in circulation, and that figure suddenly jumps to $60 trillion. the dollar loses about 20% of it's value.

So here in a few years... Everything will cost will 20% more, but your salary will be relatively the same... and when nobody can afford $hit.... we just keep printing more money for bailouts?

The stimulus matters because those who need it will get it first...then yeah a lot of it will likely just trickle up to grocery store CEOs and Amazon...but those that need it will be taken care of for that month or two or three...however long they can spread it out.

inflation is more complicated than what you are making it out to be too...there are lots of factors that cause inflation or deflation...it isn't as simple as "now there is more money so it's all worth less". We deflated after 2008 recession despite a $700B bailout.

[falc39]

replaced by who's currency? Russia's? China's?

It could be a basket of currencies. I would imagine it would depend on the sequence of events at the time and how things play out. I don’t think it’s possible to predict these details.

[tpols]

yep that's what I posted earlier...our issues are how the money is spread around, our salaries are too low

The amount in circulation doesn't matter if it's all controlled by 1% of the population

thats why theyre starting this basic universal income thing. the tilt is getting even worse.

the 1% are caking it right now, while the already behind public is falling further behind.

[falc39]

The stimulus matters because those who need it will get it first...then yeah a lot of it will likely just trickle up to grocery store CEOs and Amazon...but those that need it will be taken care of for that month or two or three...however long they can spread it out.

inflation is more complicated than what you are making it out to be too...there are lots of factors that cause inflation or deflation...it isn't as simple as "now there is more money so it's all worth less". We deflated after 2008 recession despite a $700B bailout.

The stimulus doesn’t really matter because it is a temporary effect. Just like how the stimulus for 2008 eventually wore off and we somehow find ourselves more in debt and in a worse position. We are not better off right now in real terms no matter how much the bubble made it look like things were better. The benefits are temporary because people widely use it to consume. Consumption isn’t growth. It doesn’t do anything to help with the long-term issues.

[falc39]

“When somebody is president of the United States, the authority is total.”

[Doomsday Dallas]

“When somebody is president of the United States, the authority is total.”

He's right though...

Federal Government > State Government

doesn't matter what the 10th amendment says.

[~primetime~]

The stimulus doesn’t really matter because it is a temporary effect. Just like how the stimulus for 2008 eventually wore off and we somehow find ourselves more in debt and in a worse position. We are not better off right now in real terms no matter how much the bubble made it look like things were better. The benefits are temporary because people widely use it to consume. Consumption isn’t growth. It doesn’t do anything to help with the long-term issues.

it was the lesser of the two evils...

the other option was the let banks collapse causing a domino effect and all out full blown depression

I'll take more debt and a little inflation over complete and total collapse any day.

also the stimulus is SUPPOSED to be temporary...it's just to get us by

[Stephonit]

So it doesn't matter if we pump in $10 trillion of freshly printed bills because the 1% owns it all anyway?

it's the purchasing power of the dollar... if $50 trillion is in circulation, and that figure suddenly jumps to $60 trillion. the dollar loses about 20% of it's value.

So here in a few years... Everything will cost will 20% more, but your salary will be relatively the same... and when nobody can afford $hit.... we just keep printing more money for bailouts?

What do you think income taxes are for? To give the government revenue? Of course not! The federal government can print as much money as it pleases. Taxes are to control inflation!

[falc39]

it was the lesser of the two evils...

the other option was the let banks collapse causing a domino effect and all out full blown depression

I'll take more debt and a little inflation over complete and total collapse any day.

also the stimulus is SUPPOSED to be temporary...it's just to get us by

What you don’t get is that by kicking the can further down the road and letting it get more drawn out, you are making it a lot more likely to have total and complete collapse in the future. I rather deal with the consequences when they are smaller, rather than letting it go the way it is headed. Honestly, how myopic can you be? Without dealing with the long term issues, we obviously are going to be needing a bigger and bigger stimulus until it just wont work anymore and then we will have total collapse.

[falc39]

He's right though...

Federal Government > State Government

doesn't matter what the 10th amendment says.

Lol. Really? Can we use that logic with anything in the constitution? Is that where we are now?

[~primetime~]

What you don’t get is that by kicking the can further down the road and letting it get more drawn out, you are making it a lot more likely to have total and complete collapse in the future. I rather deal with the consequences when they are smaller, rather than letting it go the way it is headed. Honestly, how myopic can you be? Without dealing with the long term issues, we obviously are going to be needing a bigger and bigger stimulus until it just wont work anymore and then we will have total collapse.
A complete collapse of society isn't "smaller"...and I don't think we see any benefit from that. That would just set us back farther.

If YOU personally are in trouble...and your choices are either take out a loan or go homeless, do you go choose to go homeless so that you don't have to pay a debt back?

[Doomsday Dallas]

What you don’t get is that by kicking the can further down the road and letting it get more drawn out, you are making it a lot more likely to have total and complete collapse in the future. I rather deal with the consequences when they are smaller, rather than letting it go the way it is headed. Honestly, how myopic can you be? Without dealing with the long term issues, we obviously are going to be needing a bigger and bigger stimulus until it just wont work anymore and then we will have total collapse.

it's only our kids that will have to worry about the issue... surely every child in America today will be able to have a six figure income when 2040 rolls around... because that's basically what will be required in order to live comfortably.

[falc39]

A complete collapse of society isn't "smaller"...and I don't think we see any benefit from that. That would just set us back farther.

If YOU personally are in trouble...and your choices are either take out a loan or go homeless, do you go choose to go homeless so that you don't have to pay a debt back?

Are you capable of seeing anything further out than a month or two?

You said it yourself, the stimulus is only temporary. So while everything is getting worse, and we are buying more time with the stimulus. How would you propose then to fix the long-term issues while we have this temporary time? Please tell me what to do then if letting things fail now is not an option.

[~primetime~]

it's only our kids that will have to worry about the issue... surely every child in America today will be able to have a six figure income when 2040 rolls around... because that's basically what will be required in order to live comfortably.
another generation from now this current $24T debt will look like pennies...and their debt will look like pennies to their kids

If you think that the US Dollar is "worthless" then you have to think the National Debt is just an arbitrary meaningless number

We print up $2T of "fake money" that creates $2T more "fake debt"

[~primetime~]

Are you capable of seeing anything further out than a month or two?

You said it yourself, the stimulus is only temporary. So while everything is getting worse, and we are buying more time with the stimulus. How would you propose then to fix the long-term issues while we have this temporary time? Please tell me what to do then if letting things fail now is not an option.
collapsing now won't magically erase our debt...that's not going to help us

also I don't see what is worse than that...we collapse now to prevent a collapse later?...no thanks, I'll take my chances that we straighten out the path

[Doomsday Dallas]

another generation from now this current $24T debt will look like pennies...and their debt will look like pennies to their kids

If you think that the US Dollar is "worthless" then you have to think the National Debt is just an arbitrary meaningless number

We print up $2T of "fake money" that creates $2T more "fake debt"


if we were the only country the world... yea... that might make sense.

unfortunately other countries exist. Other currencies exist too.

The US Dollar will not hold supreme status much longer.

[falc39]

collapsing now won't magically erase our debt...that's not going to help us

also I don't see what is worse than that...we collapse now to prevent a collapse later?...no thanks, I'll take my chances that we straighten out the path

Straighten off the path by how? It’s obvious to everyone maybe except you that this isn’t sustainable. Long-term ramifications have little to do with the number behind our debt. We are talking large social disorder, a collapse of the currency, a change in the order of civilization. Those are the kind of consequences you start running into if we keep this going without doing anything. Arguments that “th US dollar are invincible!!!” is not convincing at all.

[~primetime~]

would collapsing now keep the US dollar as "supreme"?

[Doomsday Dallas]

not when the price of oil has collapsed. We will soon see the death of the petrodollar which will take away our supreme status.

Another good move by Russia.



The “petrodollar” system was a brilliant political and economic move. It forced the world’s oil money to flow through the US Federal Reserve, creating ever-growing international demand for both US dollars and US debt, while essentially letting the US pretty much own the world’s oil for free, since oil’s value is denominated in a currency that America controls and prints. The petrodollar system spread beyond oil: the majority of international trade is done in US dollars. That means that from Russia to China, Brazil to South Korea, every country aims to maximize the US-dollar surplus garnered from its export trade to buy oil.

The US has reaped many rewards. As oil usage increased in the 1980s, demand for the US dollar rose with it, lifting the US economy to new heights. But even without economic success at home the US dollar would have soared, because the petrodollar system created consistent international demand for US dollars, which in turn gained in value. A strong US dollar allowed Americans to buy imported goods at a massive discount – the petrodollar system essentially creating a subsidy for US consumers at the expense of the rest of the world. Here, finally, the US hit on a downside: The availability of cheap imports hit the US manufacturing industry hard, and the disappearance of manufacturing jobs remains one of the biggest challenges in resurrecting the US economy today.

There is another downside, a potential threat now lurking in the shadows. The value of the US dollar is determined in large part by the fact that oil is sold in US dollars. If that trade shifts to a different currency, countries around the world won’t need all their US money. The resulting sell-off of US dollars would weaken the currency dramatically.

So here’s an interesting thought experiment. Everybody says the US goes to war to protect its oil supplies, but doesn’t it really go to war to ensure the continuation of the petrodollar system?

The Iraq war provides a good example. Until November 2000, no OPEC country had dared to violate the US dollar-pricing rule, and while the US dollar remained the strongest currency in the world there was also little reason to challenge the system. But in late 2000, France and a few other EU members convinced Saddam Hussein to defy the petrodollar process and sell Iraq’s oil for food in euros, not dollars. In the time between then and the March 2003 American invasion of Iraq, several other nations hinted at their interest in non-US dollar oil trading, including Russia, Iran, Indonesia, and even Venezuela. In April 2002, Iranian OPEC representative Javad Yarjani was invited to Spain by the EU to deliver a detailed analysis of how OPEC might at some point sell its oil to the EU for euros, not dollars.

This movement, founded in Iraq, was starting to threaten the dominance of the US dollar as the global reserve currency and petro currency. In March 2003, the US invaded Iraq, ending the oil-for-food program and its euro payment program.

There are many other historic examples of the US stepping in to halt a movement away from the petrodollar system, often in covert ways.

[Doomsday Dallas]

https://alternativeeconomics.wordpress.com/2012/01/26/the-petrodollar-system-explained/

https://alternativeeconomics.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/fed-gdp.jpg

every time the debt percentage of GDP gets too high... war soon follows.

[tpols]

the USA public owes 75% of the 24 trillion debt.

I also dont understand how collapsing the economy would help US pay shit back. How am i supposed to pay my loans back if i have no money?

i always thought china owned our debt... no they barely hold a small sliver. WE owe the debt.

[ZenMaster]

Take it from Chris Cuomo, CNN is not worth your time.


https://twitter.com/ShelbyTalcott/status/1249928908528631812 (https://twitter.com/ShelbyTalcott/status/1249928908528631812)

[Hawker]

https://scontent.fakl1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/92705318_10157002369722623_4300000624008757248_n.j pg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=jNLN1yN35ksAX935ZBS&_nc_ht=scontent.fakl1-2.fna&oh=5764f7baa3cf6a08a511c2a90aab26fa&oe=5EBB0BB6

[Doomsday Dallas]

2% inflation is healthy...that isn't a slow death at that rate...that is healthy growth. A slow death would be like 5% inflation a year...but we aren't doing that

Our economic issues typically involve the federal reserve banking system... it's a flawed system. Doesn't mean it hasn't done good things, but overall it's a flawed DEBT-BASED system.

You have to use sound money. Something that is based off commodities.... otherwise, yes, simply put, it is fake... and either it will fail or someone (like the middle class) gets screwed.

We can all sit here and play the Democrat & Republican game, but in the end, it's our monetary system in general that is flawed.

Ron Paul understood this... the only politician I've ever seen actually make any kind of sense out of our economic system.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVyhIGkusnI


He makes a good point, nothing can stop me from investing in other currencies, or gold, but that doesn't mean it's "Money"

I can't pay my rent or pay for my gas in Gold or Silver, can't pay my taxes in commodities... "money" is what circulates.

You have to have finite amount of money... not an infinite amount. That's the flaw.

Bitcoin, in a way, has actually fixed this flaw. It's "limited" and "decentralized"... just not yet circulated

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/0e/bc/6f/0ebc6f23e6c02472f95f90227667dfd7.jpg

[~primetime~]

no I disagree 100%, in fact I think that is why BTC is flawed, it's finite...that means the rich can just hoard them all...and as soon as the mining is over, the poor and middle will have no access to any BTC, it's done.

Small amounts of inflation is healthy, this is proven...that's what makes a 30-year mortgage any even more sound investment...toward the end of that 30 years the payments will be small because a good amount of inflation over a couple decades helped. Inflation helps debt in general...over time your debt will get smaller due to inflation. In 1985 the National Debt was $2T, that's nothing now...it's like all that borrowing we did in the 80s is meaningless pennies thanks to inflation.

Hyperinflation is bad...Deflation is bad (a more of a threat right now)...moderate inflation is good

[Doomsday Dallas]

no I disagree 100%, in fact I think that is why BTC is flawed, it's finite...that means the rich can just hoard them all...and as soon as the mining is over, the poor and middle will have no access to any BTC, it's done.

disagree... it would be a system like XRP/Ripple, where the government has over half the volume (RIpple owns half of XRP)

this is kinda how it use to be with the Gold Standard. Getting off the Gold Standard gave the government the ability to write a blank check that it's citizens can't cash. Fort Knox use to back up our government's promises, but now they can make unlimited promises based off our GDP.

You assume the 1% wouldn't continue to supply jobs like they do know because there isn't an infinite amount of debt? They would just hoard it all? The 1% wouldn't be the 1% if they didn't create jobs and spend money.

[Doomsday Dallas]

Money should appreciate in value.... not depreciate. That's why the system is flawed. Ron Paul is right about this... and so was JFK.


Jim Marrs, in his book Crossfire, presented the theory that Kennedy was trying to rein in the power of the Federal Reserve, and that forces opposed to such action might have played at least some part in the assassination.[17][18][19] Marrs alleges that the issuance of Executive Order 11110 was an effort by Kennedy to transfer power from the Federal Reserve to the United States Department of the Treasury by replacing Federal Reserve Notes with silver certificates

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_11110

https://steemitimages.com/DQmU5TjDCuX9j2a6oTMUwsJorhGfjUWXbZKV2bSE7AMxG2s/Executive_Order-11110.jpg


In March 1964, Secretary of the Treasury C. Douglas Dillon halted redemption of silver certificates for silver dollars.

On June 24, 1968, all redemption in silver ceased

[~primetime~]

disagree... it would be a system like XRP/Ripple, where the government has over half the volume (RIpple owns half of XRP)

this is kinda how it use to be with the Gold Standard. Getting off the Gold Standard gave the government the ability to write a blank check that it's citizens can't cash. Fort Knox use to back up our government's promises, but now they can make unlimited promises based off our GDP.

You assume the 1% wouldn't continue to supply jobs like they do know because there isn't an infinite amount of debt? They would just hoard it all? The 1% wouldn't be the 1% if they didn't create jobs and spend money.

2500 tons of gold are mined every year on average, it inflates...poor people could go out and get some if they wanted to work toward that, and they did in the past

no inflation is bad...and deflation is the worst...when we deflate all your rent and debt payments are now bigger...

[~primetime~]

If money APPRECIATED in value every year, our salaries would get smaller over time, the price of goods and services would get smaller over time...while our rent and mortgage payments stay the same...it would cause recession, and that is exactly what deflation does.

[Doomsday Dallas]

So basically you are saying money should be backed up by nothing... instead of it being backed up by something.

JFK and I disagree.

[~primetime~]

So basically you are saying money should be backed up by nothing... instead of it being backed up by something.

JFK and I disagree.

Fiat is backed up by FAITH which is the exact same thing gold is backed up by...and the exact same thing BTC is backed up by...and the exact same thing almost everything is backed up by...diamonds, baseball cards, etc

If you have a Picasso Painting...and there are people in society that are willing to give you $millions for it...that means that painting is literally worth $millions...as long as society deems it worth millions and people are willing to give you millions...it is actually worth millions. You can say "it's just canvas and paint, it's worthless" all you want to, but as long as it holds the power of getting $millions, it is really worth millions.

That same concept holds true for gold/BTC/Fiat...as long as there are people who will give you goods/services/value for your Gold/Fiat/BTC, those things are literally valuable.

And what is the point of trying to convince society those things are worthless?...why go through that effort?...it's a worthless battle

[Doomsday Dallas]

And what is the point of trying to convince society those things are worthless?...why go through that effort?...it's a worthless battle


Dude, again you are saying I'm calling money worthless... all I'm saying is that the Federal Reserve has the power to print an endless amount... because it's backed up by nothing.

Do you think the Federal Reserve could just print an endless amount of these dollars?:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/5_28abf.jpg

[Doomsday Dallas]

Also making a point that debt to GDP ratio is relevant... and will come back to bite America in the ass.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/Government_debt_gdp.png/400px-Government_debt_gdp.png

[~primetime~]

I think they should try to print 2% more every year...that helps society

If they have to go beyond that due to disaster then so be it...as long as we don't hit hyperinflation

[Stephonit]

Dude, again you are saying I'm calling money worthless... all I'm saying is that the Federal Reserve has the power to print an endless amount... because it's backed up by nothing.


You are wrong. It is backed up by the full faith and credit of the U.S. government. You know what that means? It is backed up by the government's power to tax Americans. That's what it is backed up by.

[falc39]

no I disagree 100%, in fact I think that is why BTC is flawed, it's finite...that means the rich can just hoard them all...and as soon as the mining is over, the poor and middle will have no access to any BTC, it's done.

Small amounts of inflation is healthy, this is proven...that's what makes a 30-year mortgage any even more sound investment...toward the end of that 30 years the payments will be small because a good amount of inflation over a couple decades helped. Inflation helps debt in general...over time your debt will get smaller due to inflation. In 1985 the National Debt was $2T, that's nothing now...it's like all that borrowing we did in the 80s is meaningless pennies thanks to inflation.

Hyperinflation is bad...Deflation is bad (a more of a threat right now)...moderate inflation is good

Recently, Switzerland experienced a period of deflation accompanied by economic growth. If deflation is bad, why would this occur?

[Doomsday Dallas]

You are wrong. It is backed up by the full faith and credit of the U.S. government. You know what that means? It is backed up by the government's power to tax Americans. That's what it is backed up by.

that's a good point.