89' MJ wins ring with 2nd y Xavier McDaniel instead of 2nd year Pippen (stats inside)

[3ball]

.
Xavier 87' WCF vs Lakers... 25/9/4 on 53%
Pippen 89' ECF vs Detroit... 10/8/4 on 40%


Regular Season

87' Xavier.... 23.0 ppg.. 8.6 rpg.. 2.5 apg.. 50.9 fg.. 18.7 PER
89' Pippen... 14.4 ppg.. 6.1 rpg.. 3.5 apg.. 47.3 fg.. 16.5 PER


Playoffs

87' Xavier.... 20.3 ppg.. 8.4 rpg.. 3.0 apg.. 48.8 fg
89' Pippen... 13.1 ppg.. 7.6.rpg.. 3.9 apg.. 46.2 fg


Head-to-head matchup from Pippen's prime

Xavier 92' ECF.... 18.6 on 50%
Pippen 92' ECF... 16.0 on 40%

[Stanley Kobrick]

yes chips, ranch dip

[Stanley Kobrick]

yes chips, no double dip

[LAmbruh]

no pip no chip

[3ball]

The point is that Xavier was considered better than Pippen in HS, college, draft, and would've been a champion alongside MJ as a young pro

It would be pretty tough for Pippen turn that trajectory around and end up the higher-ranked all-time player vs Xavier, let alone someone that actually had equal or greater talent, like Derrick Coleman, Kemp, Worthy, or McHale

Pippen simply won the "play with MJ" lottery - that's why he's ranked higher than all these guys - his actual play and stats was easily worse

[ClipperRevival]

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/9b/7c/97/9b7c978ab807a7029ad9b80bf058a5c3.jpg

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron wins in 2009 too.

[3ball]

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/9b/7c/97/9b7c978ab807a7029ad9b80bf058a5c3.jpg

You guys are sad.... :facepalm:

Denial and fear courses through your views, so you won't even consider perfectly reasonable observations

Xavier was considered better than Pippen in HS, college, draft, and would've been a champion alongside MJ as a young pro

It would be pretty tough for Pippen turn that trajectory around and end up the higher-ranked all-time player vs Xavier - maybe he could do it to Xavier, but there's no way he does it to someone with comparable talent, like Derrick Coleman, Kemp, Worthy, or McHale (if they played with MJ instead of Pippen)

Pippen simply won the "play with MJ" lottery - that's why he's ranked higher than all these guys - his actual play and stats was easily worse

[ClipperRevival]

You guys are sad.... :facepalm:

Denial and fear courses through your views, so you won't even consider perfectly reasonable observations

Xavier was considered better than Pippen in HS, college, draft, and would've been a champion alongside MJ as a young pro

It would be pretty tough for Pippen turn that trajectory around and end up the higher-ranked all-time player vs Xavier - maybe he could do it to Xavier, but there's no way he does it to someone with comparable talent, like Derrick Coleman, Kemp, Worthy, or McHale (if they played with MJ instead of Pippen)

Pippen simply won the "play with MJ" lottery - that's why he's ranked higher than all these guys - his actual play and stats was easily worse

I don't doubt the validity of many of your posts (although you definitely go way overboard on some of your claims, thus attracting the trolls on the other side). The point is, you come across as insecure because you keep beating a dead horse. We on the GOAT fam, no need to worry. Just relax, we on the winning side.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/90/b3/a1/90b3a19a6ffdd8ec6138312223337d6b.jpg

[NBAGOAT]

good things guy's careers arent defined by their 2nd year in the league lol.

[RRR3]

I don't doubt the validity of many of your posts (although you definitely go way overboard on some of your claims, thus attracting the trolls on the other side). The point is, you come across as insecure because you keep beating a dead horse. We on the GOAT fam, no need to worry. Just relax, we on the winning side.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/90/b3/a1/90b3a19a6ffdd8ec6138312223337d6b.jpg
He does't think MJ is GOAT obviously :oldlol:

So insecure. I'm pretty sure I've told him I have MJ as GOAT, and he still wastes time trying to "convince" me about something I already believe :wtf:

[Axe]

Poor pippen gets hated.

[Uncle Drew]

No Pip, no chip.

[86Celtics]

.
Xavier 87' WCF vs Lakers... 25/9/4 on 53%
Pippen 89' ECF vs Detroit... 10/8/4 on 40%


Regular Season

87' Xavier.... 23.0 ppg.. 8.6 rpg.. 2.5 apg.. 50.9 fg.. 18.7 PER
89' Pippen... 14.4 ppg.. 6.1 rpg.. 3.5 apg.. 47.3 fg.. 16.5 PER


Playoffs

87' Xavier.... 20.3 ppg.. 8.4 rpg.. 3.0 apg.. 48.8 fg
89' Pippen... 13.1 ppg.. 7.6.rpg.. 3.9 apg.. 46.2 fg


Head-to-head matchup from Pippen's prime

Xavier 92' ECF.... 18.6 on 50%
Pippen 92' ECF... 16.0 on 40%

Perhaps he wins in 89 but he sure as hell doesn't three peat twice with McDaniels instead of Pippen.

[FromDowntown]

Imagine referencing the 1989 ECF and forgetting MJ's other two scorers, Craig Hodges (12 ppg) and Bill Cartwright (11 ppg). MJ had 3 guys scoring in double digits below him. Stacked.

And what about DefRtg for that series? Yes, you guessed it. Pippen led he team again, of course...

Pip = 101
MJ = 106 (gave up 5 more pts per 100)

MJ also shot 23% from 3 :lol

Try again my guy

[3ball]

Perhaps he wins in 89 but he sure as hell doesn't three peat twice with McDaniels instead of Pippen.



You agree that Xavier wins with MJ in 89' and 90', so that's 2 right there.. 91' is a cinch too because the Lakers were injured, so that's a guaranteed 3-peat.

A 4-peat is possible because X-man infact destroyed Pippen in the 92' ECF - so that's a 4-peat assuming X plays on that level... And let's face it - any 20-point scorer is winning alongside MJ's 41 in 1993.. So that's a 5-peat with X-man, or at least a 3-peat from 89-91'.

But regardless, you're missing the larger point... Xavier was considered better than Pippen in HS, college, draft, and would've been a champion alongside MJ as a young pro.. It would be pretty tough for Pippen turn that trajectory around and end up the higher-ranked all-time player vs Xavier - maybe he could do it to Xavier, but there's no way he does it to someone with comparable talent, like Derrick Coleman, Kemp, Worthy, or McHale (if they played with MJ instead of Pippen)

Pippen simply won the "play with MJ" lottery - that's why he's ranked higher than all these guys - his actual play and stats was easily worse

[ShawkFactory]

You agree that Xavier wins with MJ in 89' and 90', so that's 2 right there.. 91' is a cinch too because the Lakers were injured

He said “perhaps in 89”. Don’t know where you’re getting these liberties from.

Also, solid job admitting that Jordan’s first ring was against an injured squad.

[3ball]

He said “perhaps in 89”. Don’t know where you’re getting these liberties from.

Also, solid job admitting that Jordan’s first ring was against an injured squad.
getting any concession on this forum is like winning a championship

so "perhaps" = "for sure... MJ went 6 games with just 10 ppg from Pippen, so obviously he'd win with X-man's 25/9/4 that he got vs Lakers and vastly superior stats overall"

Same applies for 1990 when Pippen's stats were still suspect

X-man was also a very good defender - locked up Pippen in 92' and dominated him, while intimidating him.. Pippen's inferiority to X-man nearly cost the Bulls the series, but fortunately they had a guy that could get 54 on all jumpers to save them from the upset

[ShawkFactory]

getting any concession on this forum is like winning a championship

so "perhaps" = "for sure... MJ went 6 games with just 10 ppg from Pippen, so obviously he'd win with X-man's 25/9/4 that he got vs Lakers and vastly superior stats overall"

Same applies for 1990 when Pippen's stats were still suspect

X-man was also a very good defender - locked Pippen up in 92' and dominated him, while intimidating him

The point is...Xavier mcdaniels > Pippen?

How’s the team gonna work with him taking 20 shots a game? He still gonna be able to do that playing with Jordan?

[Hey Yo]

Maybe if MJ took more than 8FGA in game 5 of that 89 Finals, the Bulls could've gone on to win. They were only down by 1 going into the 4th.

It was their's for the taking but MJ froze up in the biggest game of his postseason career.

[3ball]

The point is...Xavier mcdaniels > Pippen?



Not necessarily - I'm using X-man (perceived as an ordinary player) to make a point about Pippen.

If X-man wins titles with MJ in 89' and 90' as a young player, how does Pippen overcome being considered inferior in HS, college, draft, and now 2 rings behind as a young player?

And if you don't like the X-man example, how about more takented guys like Derrick Coleman, Shawn Kemp, Worthy or McHale?.. similar to X-man, these guys were better than Pippen all the way until Pippen had a few years under MJ's wing.

Again, Pippen simply won the "play with MJ" lottery






How’s the team gonna work with him taking 20 shots a game? He still gonna be able to do that playing with Jordan



Jordan would finally be able to score less with X-man

It was only the weak help and weak Pippen that forced MJ to average 4-5 more points than everyone in playoff history - it's not like that was ideal - but Pippen's weak scoring and clutch necessitated it

With another real scoring threat that can take over games and command doubles, the Bulls would have a more powerful 2-pronged attack that got the role players more open than before.. And MJ could focus on other things like defense and averaging 10 apg instead of 6.

Be aware that only MJ never had a teammate worthy of a double - everyone else had a sidekick that was viewed as a lethal scorer that commanded a double (Lebron had Wade/Kyrie/AD... Magic had Worthy and Kareem... Kobe had Shaq... Payton had Kemp... etc, etc).. Kenny "the jet" Smith pointed this out (that only MJ lacked a teammate worthy of a double)... So if MJ had the help everyone else had - he'd win even more..

[ShawkFactory]

Not necessarily - I'm using X-man (perceived as an ordinary player) to make a point about Pippen.

If X-man wins titles with MJ in 89' and 90' as a young player, how does Pippen overcome being considered inferior in HS, college, draft, and now 2 rings behind as a young player?

And if you don't like the X-man example, how about more takented guys like Derrick Coleman, Shawn Kemp, Worthy or McHale?.. similar to X-man, these guys were better than Pippen all the way until Pippen had a few years under MJ's wing.

Again, Pippen simply won the "play with MJ" lottery




Jordan would finally be able to score less with X-man

It was only the weak help and weak Pippen that forced MJ to average 4-5 more points than everyone in playoff history - it's not like that was ideal - but Pippen's weak scoring and clutch necessitated it

With another real scoring threat that can take over games and command doubles, the Bulls would have a more powerful 2-pronged attack that got the role players more open than before.. And MJ could focus on other things like defense and averaging 10 apg instead of 6.

Be aware that only MJ never had a teammate worthy of a double - everyone else had a sidekick that was viewed as a lethal scorer that commanded a double (Lebron had Wade/Kyrie/AD... Magic had Worthy and Kareem... Kobe had Shaq... Payton had Kemp... etc, etc).. Kenny "the jet" Smith pointed this out (that only MJ lacked a teammate worthy of a double)... So if MJ had the help everyone else had - he'd win even more..

Hakeem in 94 did something that Jordan never did.

[3ball]

Hakeem in 94 did something that Jordan never did.
Otis Thorpe is just a hair less than Pippen

But the Rockets win every other spot

So MJ beats the Knicks easier with the spacing Hakeem enjoyed and his more balanced team.. and a tougher team.. less guys for MJ to baby and babysit

[SouBeachTalents]

Otis Thorpe is just a hair less than Pippen
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GrandSevereDiscus-size_restricted.gif

[3ball]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GrandSevereDiscus-size_restricted.gif
MJ beats the Knicks with Hakeem's cast

Superior spacing and depth to the Bulls'

It's not like he needed an all-star teammate because Ewing didn't have one either

MJ already beat Ewing in 89' like that (with no cast)

[Akeem34TheDream]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GrandSevereDiscus-size_restricted.gif

:roll:

[86Celtics]

Not necessarily - I'm using X-man (perceived as an ordinary player) to make a point about Pippen.

If X-man wins titles with MJ in 89' and 90' as a young player, how does Pippen overcome being considered inferior in HS, college, draft, and now 2 rings behind as a young player?

And if you don't like the X-man example, how about more takented guys like Derrick Coleman, Shawn Kemp, Worthy or McHale?.. similar to X-man, these guys were better than Pippen all the way until Pippen had a few years under MJ's wing.

Again, Pippen simply won the "play with MJ" lottery




Jordan would finally be able to score less with X-man

It was only the weak help and weak Pippen that forced MJ to average 4-5 more points than everyone in playoff history - it's not like that was ideal - but Pippen's weak scoring and clutch necessitated it

With another real scoring threat that can take over games and command doubles, the Bulls would have a more powerful 2-pronged attack that got the role players more open than before.. And MJ could focus on other things like defense and averaging 10 apg instead of 6.

Be aware that only MJ never had a teammate worthy of a double - everyone else had a sidekick that was viewed as a lethal scorer that commanded a double (Lebron had Wade/Kyrie/AD... Magic had Worthy and Kareem... Kobe had Shaq... Payton had Kemp... etc, etc).. Kenny "the jet" Smith pointed this out (that only MJ lacked a teammate worthy of a double)... So if MJ had the help everyone else had - he'd win even more..

If Jordan had played with McDaniel instead of Pippen, you'd be praising Pippen saying how much more he would have helped Jordan. There's no point arguing with you.

[3ball]

If Jordan had played with McDaniel instead of Pippen, you'd be praising Pippen saying how much more he would have helped Jordan. There's no point arguing with you.
I'm just saying that there's something there - there's something to Pippen's first 3 years of development - the very fact that it was needed means it wasn't guaranteed

We can see how it wouldn't be guaranteed by looking at other guys who were better all along - we can see that they would've won titles with MJ in 89' and 90', which would've given them an insurmountable lead over Pippen (better in HS, college, draft, and 2 rings ahead as a young pro) - Pippen wouldn't have overcome that to be ranked a higher all-time, so we can conclude that he wouldn't have developed that way without MJ... Again - there's something to Pippen's first 3 years of development - the very fact that it was needed means it wasn't guaranteed

Right?.... Let's review...

If X-man (or whoever you want to put in there, aka Dominique, Mchale, Kemp, Derrick Coleman) wins rings with MJ in 89' and 90', there's no way Pippen overcomes being inferior in HS, college, draft, and 2 rings behind as a young pro, to still be ranked higher all-time.. therefore, we can conclude that he wouldn't have developed the same way without MJ.... Again - there's something to Pippen's first 3 years of development - the very fact that it was needed means it wasn't guaranteed

(and btw, Kemp and McHale needed some development too, so maybe they aren't great examples.. but Dominique, X-man, Worthy Coleman seem like great examples)

[FromDowntown]

Otis Thorpe is just a hair less than Pippen

But the Rockets win every other spot

So MJ beats the Knicks easier with the spacing Hakeem enjoyed and his more balanced team.. and a tougher team.. less guys for MJ to baby and babysit

I saw a thread claiming Pippen was an 8-time 1st team All-NBA and in 5 of 6 Finals outscored the oppositions #2 option and in one of those he even outscored the oppositions first option.

Is this true?

[3ball]

I saw a thread claiming Pippen was an 8-time 1st team All-NBA and in 5 of 6 Finals outscored the oppositions #2 option and in one of those he even outscored the oppositions first option.

Is this true?
That might've been my only overstatement of the thread

but it's moot now because the issue at heart has been identified - whether Pippen would've developed without MJ

If we know that 2nd/3rd year Dominique or Derrick Coleman would've won titles with MJ in 89' and 90', then that means Dominique/Coleman were better then Pippen in HS, college, draft, and 2 rings ahead as a young pro - Pippen can't overcome this to become a higher-ranked player all-time, which indicates he wouldn't have developed without MJ

Again - there's something to Pippen's first 3 years of development - the very fact that it was needed means it wasn't guaranteed.. he simply won the "play with MJ" lottery.. Even the man who picked Pippen in the draft
(Krause) said MJ "made" Pippen

[3ball]

.
JERRY KRAUSE, Bulls GM:


“Would Pippen have been great someplace else?

Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him... No.... Michael made him a man.

Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And he - Collins - he had Michael beat on him (Pippen) every day in practice and Michael beat him to death."

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558


Sorry, but this guy wasn't going to develop into a better player than Dominique or Derrick Coleman without MJ.. Krause probably agrees:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0f1EsUVCIU

[DoctorP]

irrelevant revisionist scenario. not my tempo.

[RRR3]

Otis Thorpe is just a hair less than Pippen
https://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/heroin-gif-4.gif

[3ball]

irrelevant revisionist scenario. not my tempo.
Correction... Scenarios plural

2nd year X-man was a much better player than 2nd year Pippen in the regular season, playoffs and also H2H in Pip's prime..

that's enough to say he'd win titles with MJ in 89' and maybe 90' as well, which would make him superior to Pippen for HS, college, draft, and as a young pro..

How could Pippen overcome this and still be ranked higher all-time like he achieved alongside jordan?.. Seems impossible because that's how unlikely it is he would've developed the same way without Jordan (as Krause discusses above)

[LAL]

You could visibly see how pippen was greatly influenced by MJ on both sides, leaner dunks off of both feet, trying to dunk on every big any chance he got, some post moves, defensive mentality and style, strictly business attitude, the confidence, a little mean too.

[ShawkFactory]

Otis Thorpe is just a hair less than Pippen

But the Rockets win every other spot

So MJ beats the Knicks easier with the spacing Hakeem enjoyed and his more balanced team.. and a tougher team.. less guys for MJ to baby and babysit

So we’re saying that Hakeem with Otis Thorpe had more help than jordan ever did?

[Rico2016]

You could visibly see how pippen was greatly influenced by MJ on both sides, leaner dunks off of both feet, trying to dunk on every big any chance he got, some post moves, defensive mentality and style, strictly business attitude, the confidence, a little mean too.

So the guy who was 1-9 (MJ) before Pippen and then magically started winning AFTER Pippen...was the influential one? I don't think so mate.

[LAL]

So the guy who was 1-9 (MJ) before Pippen and then magically started winning AFTER Pippen...was the influential one? I don't think so mate.

Which one of the attributes i named did 80's MJ not possess?

[DoctorP]

Correction... Scenarios plural

2nd year X-man was a much better player than 2nd year Pippen in the regular season, playoffs and also H2H in Pip's prime..

that's enough to say he'd win titles with MJ in 89' and maybe 90' as well, which would make him superior to Pippen for HS, college, draft, and as a young pro..

How could Pippen overcome this and still be ranked higher all-time like he achieved alongside jordan?.. Seems impossible because that's how unlikely it is he would've developed the same way without Jordan (as Krause discusses above)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAag-nlCJQ0

it doesn't matter.

[Rico2016]

Which one of the attributes i named did 80's MJ not possess?


We're to believe that a career loser (Jordan) that started his career 1 for 9 before Pippen and then magically started winning after Pippen became his teammate and then failed to win again after Pippen left, was the influential one? Or perhaps it was the other way around. Perhaps the career winner (Pippen) who joined a 1-9 career loser in MJ showed him how to play defense and how to win.

Pippen won more playoff games without MJ than MJ did without Pippen. Don't forget that. Scottie Pippen might be the NBA's most influential player in league history. He molded MJ into a winner. MJ before Pippen was a reckless Russell Westbrook. Bottom line. Reckless Russ. Mindless Mike.

[And1AllDay]

you made me do it

https://i.postimg.cc/8krqsSKd/Pipbatman.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/wBLQqPp4/AlongCameScottie.jpg