Finals close out games: Kobe 6/24 (25%), MJ 5/19 (26%),

[FromDowntown]

Which close-out game was worse? Do we have any other FMVP close-out game wins shooting sub 25% to win?

[ImKobe]

Both won the series & FMVP. You losers jinxed the NBA season with your constant Lebron nutriding, hope you're happy.

[Turbo Slayer]

No one cares, FromDowntown.

[FromDowntown]

No one cares, FromDowntown.

Hi TurboSlayer,

Some might care?

[Turbo Slayer]

Hi TurboSlayer,

Some might care? You got a point. :oldlol:

[FireDavidKahn]

Both won the series & FMVP. You losers jinxed the NBA season with your constant Lebron nutriding, hope you're happy.

No shit.

WHat does that tell you that they could play like garbage and still win?

[FromDowntown]

No shit.

WHat does that tell you that they could play like garbage and still win?

He wont respond. We gottem

[ImKobe]

No shit.

WHat does that tell you that they could play like garbage and still win?

Maybe FG% isn't the only way to determine whether someone played well or not? You can shoot poorly and still have a positive impact on the game, brainlet.

[FromDowntown]

Maybe FG% isn't the only way to determine whether someone played well or not? You can shoot poorly and still have a positive impact on the game, brainlet.

Would you say that if LeBron did 22 pts on 26% in a Finals close-out game, brainlet?

[ImKobe]

Would you say that if LeBron did 22 pts on 26% in a Finals close-out game, brainlet?

That depends, did he have a positive impact in other areas or clutch situations to win the game?

[HoopsNY]

Horrible post to try to tear down two of the greatest players of all time. Have you considered that Kobe and MJ were up against two of the best defensive teams with two of the best perimeter players at the time?

The Celtics were a 5th ranked defense and had a combination of Rajon Rondo (1st team All-Defensive) and Ray Allen.

The Sonics were an 8th ranked defense with Gary Payton (1st team All-Defensive AND Defensive Player of the Year) and Hersey Hawkins. MJ was Payton's defensive assignment.


Lebron has won against:

OKC - 17th ranked defense
SA - 11th ranked defense
GS - 19th ranked defense

His best defenders was the combination of Draymond Green (All-Defensive 1st team) and Harrison Barnes.

So while Kobe did shoot poorly against Boston and that DOES matter, the type of defense he faced ALSO does matter. The same can be said with MJ who was guarded by arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time.

This doesn't take away from LeBron's accomplishments in close out finals wins. He did phenomenally and should be praised for that. I just don't think this particular aspect of this debate holds any weight on either side.

[STATUTORY]

Horrible post to try to tear down two of the greatest players of all time. Have you considered that Kobe and MJ were up against two of the best defensive teams with two of the best perimeter players at the time?

The Celtics were a 5th ranked defense and had a combination of Rajon Rondo (1st team All-Defensive) and Ray Allen.

The Sonics were an 8th ranked defense with Gary Payton (1st team All-Defensive AND Defensive Player of the Year) and Hersey Hawkins. MJ was Payton's defensive assignment.


Lebron has won against:

OKC - 17th ranked defense
SA - 11th ranked defense
GS - 19th ranked defense

His best defenders was the combination of Draymond Green (All-Defensive 1st team) and Harrison Barnes.

So while Kobe did shoot poorly against Boston and that DOES matter, the type of defense he faced ALSO does matter. The same can be said with MJ who was guarded by arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time.

This doesn't take away from LeBron's accomplishments in close out finals wins. He did phenomenally and should be praised for that. I just don't think this particular aspect of this debate holds any weight on either side.

breath of fresh air to see a coherent and logical comment on this forum :applause:

[Rysio]

I didn't watch Jordans game but Kobe was clutch as usual in the 4th.

[LAL]

No shit.

WHat does that tell you that they could play like garbage and still win?

Iguadala and kawhi winning fmvp based on their defense on the guy averaging a triple double. What does that tell you about Mr. Frontrunners stats?

[FromDowntown]

Horrible post to try to tear down two of the greatest players of all time. Have you considered that Kobe and MJ were up against two of the best defensive teams with two of the best perimeter players at the time?

The Celtics were a 5th ranked defense and had a combination of Rajon Rondo (1st team All-Defensive) and Ray Allen.

The Sonics were an 8th ranked defense with Gary Payton (1st team All-Defensive AND Defensive Player of the Year) and Hersey Hawkins. MJ was Payton's defensive assignment.


Lebron has won against:

OKC - 17th ranked defense
SA - 11th ranked defense
GS - 19th ranked defense

His best defenders was the combination of Draymond Green (All-Defensive 1st team) and Harrison Barnes.

So while Kobe did shoot poorly against Boston and that DOES matter, the type of defense he faced ALSO does matter. The same can be said with MJ who was guarded by arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time.

This doesn't take away from LeBron's accomplishments in close out finals wins. He did phenomenally and should be praised for that. I just don't think this particular aspect of this debate holds any weight on either side.

What was MJ's best ring?

[HoopsNY]

breath of fresh air to see a coherent and logical comment on this forum :applause:

Thanks bro. I don't believe in fanboyism. Objective analysis and telling the story as is without tearing a player down is the way we should approach any sports debate.

[HoopsNY]

What was MJ's best ring?

What do you mean by best ring?

[FromDowntown]

What do you mean by best ring?

What was his best ring. Is that hard to answer? In the Finals, when he WON his ring, which was his best

[FireDavidKahn]

Iguadala and kawhi winning fmvp based on their defense on the guy averaging a triple double. What does that tell you about Mr. Frontrunners stats?

That the rest of the team couldn't step up

[RRR3]

Horrible post to try to tear down two of the greatest players of all time. Have you considered that Kobe and MJ were up against two of the best defensive teams with two of the best perimeter players at the time?

The Celtics were a 5th ranked defense and had a combination of Rajon Rondo (1st team All-Defensive) and Ray Allen.

The Sonics were an 8th ranked defense with Gary Payton (1st team All-Defensive AND Defensive Player of the Year) and Hersey Hawkins. MJ was Payton's defensive assignment.


Lebron has won against:

OKC - 17th ranked defense
SA - 11th ranked defense
GS - 19th ranked defense

His best defenders was the combination of Draymond Green (All-Defensive 1st team) and Harrison Barnes.

So while Kobe did shoot poorly against Boston and that DOES matter, the type of defense he faced ALSO does matter. The same can be said with MJ who was guarded by arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time.

This doesn't take away from LeBron's accomplishments in close out finals wins. He did phenomenally and should be praised for that. I just don't think this particular aspect of this debate holds any weight on either side.
The 16 Warriors were a top 5 defense wtf are you talking about. You don’t measure it by just opponents PPG that’s asinine.

[FromDowntown]

Horrible post to try to tear down two of the greatest players of all time. Have you considered that Kobe and MJ were up against two of the best defensive teams with two of the best perimeter players at the time?

The Celtics were a 5th ranked defense and had a combination of Rajon Rondo (1st team All-Defensive) and Ray Allen.

The Sonics were an 8th ranked defense with Gary Payton (1st team All-Defensive AND Defensive Player of the Year) and Hersey Hawkins. MJ was Payton's defensive assignment.


Lebron has won against:

OKC - 17th ranked defense
SA - 11th ranked defense
GS - 19th ranked defense

His best defenders was the combination of Draymond Green (All-Defensive 1st team) and Harrison Barnes.

So while Kobe did shoot poorly against Boston and that DOES matter, the type of defense he faced ALSO does matter. The same can be said with MJ who was guarded by arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time.

This doesn't take away from LeBron's accomplishments in close out finals wins. He did phenomenally and should be praised for that. I just don't think this particular aspect of this debate holds any weight on either side.

wrong wrong wrong, obviously 3ball alt with all the stat lies...

2016 warriors were

5th best in points per 100
3rd best in opponent fg%

dirty liar, foh with 19th best.

they were 5th best, 5th of 30 for DefRtg.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/2016.html

3ball, bad little boy

[Da_Realist]

What was MJ's best ring?

A ring crowns the whole season. By any measure it's the 95-96 Bulls, who had the best season (regular season and playoffs) of all time.

Best ring:
MJ was Regular Season MVP, Scoring Champ and Finals MVP
Led team to 72-10 Regular Season Record
Led team to 15-3 Playoff Record
Beat two 60+ win teams

And that may not be his most dominant... 1990-91 Bulls went 61-21 but peaked at the right time and tore through the playoffs winning 15 of 17 games and sweeping the two-time defending champs in the process. MJ was at or near his peak level throughout the year, led the league in scoring, was Regular Season MVP, Finals MVP and would have been Playoffs MVP if they had such an award. Peak MJ at or near his highest level of domination and creativity.

His most underrated:
92-93 Bulls
Slogged through the regular season to save the legs of their two best players after spending the off season playing in the Olympics. Went 15-4 in the Playoffs, backdoor sweeping a very good and hungry 60-win NYK team. Then MJ averaged 41 points a game along with 9 rebounds leading the Bulls to a win against their second 60 win team, winning all four games against Phoenix in Phoenix that year. Suns fans never saw them beat the Bulls at home in four tries.

His most clutch:
96-97 Bulls
Went 69-13 which may be as impressive as the 72-10 the year before because it's much harder to defend a title than win it the first time. Beat two 60 win teams. Almost brought the Bulls back in Game 3 vs NYK as only MJ could before ultimately losing. Was even more impressive almost bringing the Bulls back from a huge deficit against the Heat in Game 4 (as only MJ could) before ultimately losing the game. Then hit a game winner in Game 1 vs Utah. Woulda-shoulda been a triple double in the next game. Put the Bulls on his back while exhausted and battling a stomach virus in Game 5, even hitting the game winner. Game winning assist to win the title in Game 6.

Most impressive:
Has to be 1997-98 Bulls. Only one of two players that played all 82 games that season (Ron Harper). Pippen missed 38 games that season. The Bulls still managed to win 62 games (tied for the best). Put the clamps on Reggie Miller in the 2nd half of Game 7 in the ECF in a game they would have lost otherwise. Ended the season with the most iconic, Michael Jordan-esque way he could have... After Stockton's three put the Jazz up three, MJ hit a clutch shot to close the gap to one point, stole the ball from Karl Malone on the Jazz possession and then hit the game winner to put the Bulls up one, while holding the pose of his follow through that has been immortalized over the years. He held the pose for a basketball reason (he was tired and missing shots earlier so Phil Jackson advised him to focus more on his follow through) but as with everything else MJ had a flair for the dramatic. Iconic ending. Picture perfect. Clutch.

[Doranku]

Horrible post to try to tear down two of the greatest players of all time. Have you considered that Kobe and MJ were up against two of the best defensive teams with two of the best perimeter players at the time?

The Celtics were a 5th ranked defense and had a combination of Rajon Rondo (1st team All-Defensive) and Ray Allen.

The Sonics were an 8th ranked defense with Gary Payton (1st team All-Defensive AND Defensive Player of the Year) and Hersey Hawkins. MJ was Payton's defensive assignment.


Lebron has won against:

OKC - 17th ranked defense
SA - 11th ranked defense
GS - 19th ranked defense

His best defenders was the combination of Draymond Green (All-Defensive 1st team) and Harrison Barnes.

So while Kobe did shoot poorly against Boston and that DOES matter, the type of defense he faced ALSO does matter. The same can be said with MJ who was guarded by arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time.

This doesn't take away from LeBron's accomplishments in close out finals wins. He did phenomenally and should be praised for that. I just don't think this particular aspect of this debate holds any weight on either side.

The funniest part is that LeBron had a worse performance than Kobe's game 7 against the same Celtics team 3 weeks earlier. :lol

Series tied 2-2, Cavs at home. LeBron scores 15 points on 3-14 shooting while the Cavs get blown out by 32 at home... then they lose the series next game. Cost his #1 seeded team the series because he was too busy daydreaming about Miami.. meanwhile Kobe actually won the game AND the series and came up big when it mattered.

[FKAri]

Wow! These two players must be absolute bottom of the barrel dog shit! Can't believe they stole checks in the NBA.
Thanks for educating us OP.

[red1]

Wow! These two players must be absolute bottom of the barrel dog shit! Can't believe they stole checks in the NBA.
Thanks for educating us OP.

this guy :roll:

[FromDowntown]

The funniest part is that LeBron had a worse performance than Kobe's game 7 against the same Celtics team 3 weeks earlier. :lol

Series tied 2-2, Cavs at home. LeBron scores 15 points on 3-14 shooting while the Cavs get blown out by 32 at home... then they lose the series next game. Cost his #1 seeded team the series because he was too busy daydreaming about Miami.. meanwhile Kobe actually won the game AND the series and came up big when it mattered.

Would you dare compare 2009 LBJ vs Magic and 2009 Kobe vs Magic? Don't pull the numbers, they are bad for you my guy. Best to keep quiet and move along.

[Axe]

Which close-out game was worse? Do we have any other FMVP close-out game wins shooting sub 25% to win?
Why the hell didn't you include curry here as well? He could be a potential honorable mention even if he lacks fmvps.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

His most clutch:
96-97 Bulls
Went 69-13 which may be as impressive as the 72-10 the year before because it's much harder to defend a title than win it the first time. Beat two 60 win teams. Almost brought the Bulls back in Game 3 vs NYK as only MJ could before ultimately losing. Was even more impressive almost bringing the Bulls back from a huge deficit against the Heat in Game 4 (as only MJ could) before ultimately losing the game. Then hit a game winner in Game 1 vs Utah. Woulda-shoulda been a triple double in the next game. Put the Bulls on his back while exhausted and battling a stomach virus in Game 5, even hitting the game winner. Game winning assist to win the title in Game 6.

Chicago didn't play NY in the 1997 playoffs.

That was the year before.

[Da_Realist]

Chicago didn't play NY in the 1997 playoffs.

That was the year before.

Yeah, you're right. I was going off the top of my head. Should've looked it up.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yeah, you're right. I was going off the top of my head. Should've looked it up.

I know what game you're talking about though. He hit a ton of clutch shots, and had 40+ in that performance. The Miami one you brought up is one of his best. Mike was horrid for the entire game and then went nuclear in the 4th quarter. Same game Zo swore the Heat wouldn't lose.

[Da_Realist]

I know what game you're talking about though. He hit a ton of clutch shots, and had 40+ in that performance. The Miami one you brought up is one of his best. Mike was horrid for the entire game and then went nuclear in the 4th quarter. Same game Zo swore the Heat wouldn't lose.

That's the game. He went 9-35 that game but hit 6 or 7 shots late to get the Bulls within striking distance.

What's funny is none of the teams I mentioned may even be the best Bulls team. That could easily be the 1991-92 team. But he asked what was the best ring and the 92 Bulls were too inconsistent in the playoffs (15-8). They were good enough to beat everyone they faced in five games tops.

[Doranku]

Would you dare compare 2009 LBJ vs Magic and 2009 Kobe vs Magic? Don't pull the numbers, they are bad for you my guy. Best to keep quiet and move along.

Kobe won a championship while averaging 32/7/6. Bran lost with HCA and blew multiple 20 point leads throughout the series. What is there to compare?

[FromDowntown]

Kobe won a championship while averaging 32/7/6. Bran lost with HCA and blew multiple 20 point leads throughout the series. What is there to compare?

LeBron scored more ppg in his first playiff series than Kobe scored in ANY playoff series in his entire career. Think on it.

[Axe]

LeBron scored more ppg in his first playiff series than Kobe scored in ANY playoff series in his entire career. Think on it.
Scored most points for his team in that entire series yet barely won three games with a single-point lead. Also went to two overtimes.

[HoopsNY]

What was his best ring. Is that hard to answer? In the Finals, when he WON his ring, which was his best

Is there a reason you're having an attitude about it?

[FromDowntown]

Is there a reason you're having an attitude about it?

Still shook to answer I see. I figured. All his rings are fairly embarassing. Kobe's 2010 ring was better than any MJ ring. MJ has weak rings.

[Axe]

Still shook to answer I see. I figured. All his rings are fairly embarassing. Kobe's 2010 ring was better than any MJ ring. MJ has weak rings.
From a vocabulary of an insolent troll, i see.

[FromDowntown]

From a vocabulary of an insolent troll, i see.


Why do you have a LBJ avatar again?

[Axe]

Why do you have a LBJ avatar again?
Wtf!? 🤣🤣🤣

[Overdrive]

What was his best ring. Is that hard to answer? In the Finals, when he WON his ring, which was his best

In all of my years of watching and discussing basketball this is the most stupid, disingenious talking point I've stumbled across.

Trying to push the 2016 GOAT ring narrative to put Lebron in a place he doesn't belong. Based on beating a 73 win team.

If we have a closer look the Warriors went 12 and 5 in the WC having a 70.5 win %. Equal to 57 RS wins. Lebron's 2nd option was the 2nd best scorer in the series by a wide margin and close to Lebron himself. Keyplayers to the Warriors had injuries - no, not Curry.

Wonder why this series even went to 7? Because Lebron played like ass the first 2 games. Lucky for him the Warrior's top player is an even bigger mental midget than him.

The 96 Sonics went 11-4 in the playoffs (73,3% - 60 projected wins)
97 Jazz 11-3(78,6% - 64 Wins)
98 Jazz same
91 Lakers same
92 Blazers 11-4(see Sea)
93 Suns 11-7(61,1% - 50 wins)

Going by how their opponents did throughout the playoffs the rings vs PHX and GS are the least impressive. SA and OKC had the best records. While 5 of 6 of MJ's opponents weren't far off.

[aj1987]

Horrible post to try to tear down two of the greatest players of all time. Have you considered that Kobe and MJ were up against two of the best defensive teams with two of the best perimeter players at the time?

The Celtics were a 5th ranked defense and had a combination of Rajon Rondo (1st team All-Defensive) and Ray Allen.

The Sonics were an 8th ranked defense with Gary Payton (1st team All-Defensive AND Defensive Player of the Year) and Hersey Hawkins. MJ was Payton's defensive assignment.


Lebron has won against:

OKC - 17th ranked defense
SA - 11th ranked defense
GS - 19th ranked defense

His best defenders was the combination of Draymond Green (All-Defensive 1st team) and Harrison Barnes.

So while Kobe did shoot poorly against Boston and that DOES matter, the type of defense he faced ALSO does matter. The same can be said with MJ who was guarded by arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time.

This doesn't take away from LeBron's accomplishments in close out finals wins. He did phenomenally and should be praised for that. I just don't think this particular aspect of this debate holds any weight on either side.

Holy mother of god. The amount of bullshit and lies in this post would make 3ball blush. Wow!

I really don't think I want to actually refute your points either, as they're either complete and utter BS or straight up lies. :facepalm

[Akeem34TheDream]

Holy mother of god. The amount of bullshit and lies in this post would make 3ball blush. Wow!

I really don't think I want to actually refute your points either, as they're either complete and utter BS or straight up lies. :facepalm

Yeah he looked at opponents point per game without factoring in pace. He should have looked at Defensive ratings. According to Def ratings:

OKC - 11th ranked defense
SA - 3rd ranked defense
GS - 5th ranked defense

[SamanthaKinch]

Just wait for the time to come.

[HakeemAlHilm]

Horrible post to try to tear down two of the greatest players of all time. Have you considered that Kobe and MJ were up against two of the best defensive teams with two of the best perimeter players at the time?

The Celtics were a 5th ranked defense and had a combination of Rajon Rondo (1st team All-Defensive) and Ray Allen.

The Sonics were an 8th ranked defense with Gary Payton (1st team All-Defensive AND Defensive Player of the Year) and Hersey Hawkins. MJ was Payton's defensive assignment.


Lebron has won against:

OKC - 17th ranked defense
SA - 11th ranked defense
GS - 19th ranked defense

His best defenders was the combination of Draymond Green (All-Defensive 1st team) and Harrison Barnes.

So while Kobe did shoot poorly against Boston and that DOES matter, the type of defense he faced ALSO does matter. The same can be said with MJ who was guarded by arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time.

This doesn't take away from LeBron's accomplishments in close out finals wins. He did phenomenally and should be praised for that. I just don't think this particular aspect of this debate holds any weight on either side.

This dumbass really looked at opp/pts game and called it "defensive ranking"

Actual dRTG

2011-12 OKC - 103.2 (ranked 11th) [BTW dRTG in 2012 for all teams were insane, that would be top 5 most years]
2012-13 SAS - 101.6 (ranked 3rd)
2015-16 GSW 103.8 (ranked 5th)

[LAL]

Edit

[ArbitraryWater]

That depends, did he have a positive impact in other areas or clutch situations to win the game?

Both had trash games.

Its impossible with 5 and 6 made shots respectively to have had a particularly clutch 4th quarter unless they were literally scoreless before.

They choked. MJ isnt a choker though.

Only Kobe.

[Rysio]

Both had trash games.

Its impossible with 5 and 6 made shots respectively to have had a particularly clutch 4th quarter unless they were literally scoreless before.

They choked. MJ isnt a choker though.

Only Kobe.

LOL your boy is the biggest atg choker of all time

[LAL]

Both had trash games.

Its impossible with 5 and 6 made shots respectively to have had a particularly clutch 4th quarter unless they were literally scoreless before.

They choked. MJ isnt a choker though.

Only Kobe.
Bronstans so desperate they talk about kobe's misses in a series he won. Doesn't your boy only have 3 lucky superteam rings in the east? We can critisize him for those AND all those humiliating losing series? Lol choking :lol :D

[Da_Realist]

In all of my years of watching and discussing basketball this is the most stupid, disingenious talking point I've stumbled across.

Trying to push the 2016 GOAT ring narrative to put Lebron in a place he doesn't belong. Based on beating a 73 win team.

If we have a closer look the Warriors went 12 and 5 in the WC having a 70.5 win %. Equal to 57 RS wins. Lebron's 2nd option was the 2nd best scorer in the series by a wide margin and close to Lebron himself. Keyplayers to the Warriors had injuries - no, not Curry.

Wonder why this series even went to 7? Because Lebron played like ass the first 2 games. Lucky for him the Warrior's top player is an even bigger mental midget than him.

The 96 Sonics went 11-4 in the playoffs (73,3% - 60 projected wins)
97 Jazz 11-3(78,6% - 64 Wins)
98 Jazz same
91 Lakers same
92 Blazers 11-4(see Sea)
93 Suns 11-7(61,1% - 50 wins)

Going by how their opponents did throughout the playoffs the rings vs PHX and GS are the least impressive. SA and OKC had the best records. While 5 of 6 of MJ's opponents weren't far off.

GS had already lost by 28 and 24 in back-to-back games before they ever saw LeBron James. So yeah, let's hold off on the GOAT ring talk. That team was built to dominate the regular season but could only hope to survive the playoffs, which they didn't do.

[Turbo Slayer]

GS had already lost by 28 and 24 in back-to-back games before they ever saw LeBron James. So yeah, let's hold off on the GOAT ring talk. That team was built to dominate the regular season but could only hope to survive the playoffs, which they didn't do.

Winning the ¨GOAT¨ ring shouldnt factor in when ranking players. It´s way too flawed. Theres way too many factors you have to consider in like era, team strength, players, injuries, and narratives and etc... Its too complicated.

Also Finals closeout games shouldnt affect a players legacy whatsoever.

[Manny98]

Horrible post to try to tear down two of the greatest players of all time. Have you considered that Kobe and MJ were up against two of the best defensive teams with two of the best perimeter players at the time?

The Celtics were a 5th ranked defense and had a combination of Rajon Rondo (1st team All-Defensive) and Ray Allen.

The Sonics were an 8th ranked defense with Gary Payton (1st team All-Defensive AND Defensive Player of the Year) and Hersey Hawkins. MJ was Payton's defensive assignment.


Lebron has won against:

OKC - 17th ranked defense
SA - 11th ranked defense
GS - 19th ranked defense

His best defenders was the combination of Draymond Green (All-Defensive 1st team) and Harrison Barnes.

So while Kobe did shoot poorly against Boston and that DOES matter, the type of defense he faced ALSO does matter. The same can be said with MJ who was guarded by arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time.

This doesn't take away from LeBron's accomplishments in close out finals wins. He did phenomenally and should be praised for that. I just don't think this particular aspect of this debate holds any weight on either side.

OKC were 10th ranked defense
Warriors were 5th ranked defense
Spurs were 3rd ranked defense

Why lie :lol

[ImKobe]

Both had trash games.

Its impossible with 5 and 6 made shots respectively to have had a particularly clutch 4th quarter unless they were literally scoreless before.

They choked. MJ isnt a choker though.

Only Kobe.

How do you choke when you win the game and lead your team in 4th quarter scoring?

[HoopsNY]

I think it's very disappointing to assume that I'm lying when all of you could have just ask me to clarify. The focus should be an intellectual debate and not some smear campaign used to malign the person you're disagreeing with as well as the players in question. But having said that, allow me to clarify. When I mentioned ranked defense, I was looking at Opponent Points Per Game.

Now I understand that some of you don't like that approach and consider DRtg much more, but as I've always said, approach the advanced metrics with a healthy dose of skepticism. Here's why.

https://i.ibb.co/xHncC0w/Screen-Shot-2020-04-13-at-12-31-14-PM.png

What this shows us is that both the Celtics and Sonics were more dominant than the other teams mentioned. The area of focus that should be considered in this conversation is how dominant these teams were where DRtg was concerned compared to the rest of the league by average. We find that teams like OKC and GS had a more comparable DRtg to the league average, whereas teams like San Antonio, Boston, and Seattle were much more defensively dominant.

So I believe we should compare numerous statistics and analyze them, respectively, in order to draw a conclusion. Seattle was significantly more defensively dominant against the rest of the league in 1995-96 than all of the other teams listed. And I also believe that when you consider the fact that Kobe and Mj faced elite perimeter defenders, then it's really unfair to cast doubt with regards to the legitimacy of who they beat when you take into account the fact that Lebron's overall competition was slightly lesser in the defensive realm.

Lastly, I would caution people with relying on DRtg. Since it is purely a raw-stat based metric combined with formulaic methods, we find that players like Chris Webber are rated higher than Shaquille O'Neal, and other players like Bonzi Wells are rated higher than Scottie Pippen. As such, combine the statistics with other statistics, facts, analysis, and the eye test to provide an informed conclusion.

[3ball]

What was MJ's best ring?
The ones where he accomplished what no one else in the modern era has (2nd three-peat), or where only peak Shaq accomplished (1 three-peat)

[Turbo Slayer]

I think it's very disappointing to assume that I'm lying when all of you could have just ask me to clarify. The focus should be an intellectual debate and not some smear campaign used to malign the person you're disagreeing with as well as the players in question. But having said that, allow me to clarify. When I mentioned ranked defense, I was looking at Opponent Points Per Game.

Now I understand that some of you don't like that approach and consider DRtg much more, but as I've always said, approach the advanced metrics with a healthy dose of skepticism. Here's why.

https://i.ibb.co/xHncC0w/Screen-Shot-2020-04-13-at-12-31-14-PM.png

What this shows us is that both the Celtics and Sonics were more dominant than the other teams mentioned. The area of focus that should be considered in this conversation is how dominant these teams were where DRtg was concerned compared to the rest of the league by average. We find that teams like OKC and GS had a more comparable DRtg to the league average, whereas teams like San Antonio, Boston, and Seattle were much more defensively dominant.

So I believe we should compare numerous statistics and analyze them, respectively, in order to draw a conclusion. Seattle was significantly more defensively dominant against the rest of the league in 1995-96 than all of the other teams listed. And I also believe that when you consider the fact that Kobe and Mj faced elite perimeter defenders, then it's really unfair to cast doubt with regards to the legitimacy of who they beat when you take into account the fact that Lebron's overall competition was slightly lesser in the defensive realm.

Lastly, I would caution people with relying on DRtg. Since it is purely a raw-stat based metric combined with formulaic methods, we find that players like Chris Webber are rated higher than Shaquille O'Neal, and other players like Bonzi Wells are rated higher than Scottie Pippen. As such, combine the statistics with other statistics, facts, analysis, and the eye test to provide an informed conclusion. :applause:

What an amazing post! You are awesome.

[HoopsNY]

I believe OKC's Opponents PPG in the above image should reach 17th and not 14th, so my bad.

[3ball]

Both had trash games.

Its impossible with 5 and 6 made shots respectively to have had a particularly clutch 4th quarter unless they were literally scoreless before.

They choked. MJ isnt a choker though.

Only Kobe.
Lebron shot 33% in closeout game in 16'

And who had the lowest true shooting while winning a Finals between Kobe, Lebron and MJ?

Lebron 52.9% in 2013 Finals

[nizroc]

I think it's very disappointing to assume that I'm lying when all of you could have just ask me to clarify. The focus should be an intellectual debate and not some smear campaign used to malign the person you're disagreeing with as well as the players in question. But having said that, allow me to clarify. When I mentioned ranked defense, I was looking at Opponent Points Per Game.

Now I understand that some of you don't like that approach and consider DRtg much more, but as I've always said, approach the advanced metrics with a healthy dose of skepticism. Here's why.

https://i.ibb.co/xHncC0w/Screen-Shot-2020-04-13-at-12-31-14-PM.png

What this shows us is that both the Celtics and Sonics were more dominant than the other teams mentioned. The area of focus that should be considered in this conversation is how dominant these teams were where DRtg was concerned compared to the rest of the league by average. We find that teams like OKC and GS had a more comparable DRtg to the league average, whereas teams like San Antonio, Boston, and Seattle were much more defensively dominant.

So I believe we should compare numerous statistics and analyze them, respectively, in order to draw a conclusion. Seattle was significantly more defensively dominant against the rest of the league in 1995-96 than all of the other teams listed. And I also believe that when you consider the fact that Kobe and Mj faced elite perimeter defenders, then it's really unfair to cast doubt with regards to the legitimacy of who they beat when you take into account the fact that Lebron's overall competition was slightly lesser in the defensive realm.

Lastly, I would caution people with relying on DRtg. Since it is purely a raw-stat based metric combined with formulaic methods, we find that players like Chris Webber are rated higher than Shaquille O'Neal, and other players like Bonzi Wells are rated higher than Scottie Pippen. As such, combine the statistics with other statistics, facts, analysis, and the eye test to provide an informed conclusion.

Bro, we need to get you on TV or writing for a major sports publication. We need you up there instead of sensationalists like Stephen A. Smith and lying charlatan fanboys like Nick Wright. Guys, this is what actual research and analysis looks like! Show some appreciation.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron shot 33% in closeout game in 16'

And who had the lowest true shooting while winning a Finals between Kobe, Lebron and MJ?

Lebron 52.9% in 2013 Finals
Jordan '98 Finals: 51.6%TS
Kobe '00 Finals: 41.1%TS
Kobe '01 Finals: 50.1%TS
Kobe '09 Finals: 52.5%TS
Kobe '10 Finals: 52.8%TS

[aj1987]

Yeah he looked at opponents point per game without factoring in pace. He should have looked at Defensive ratings. According to Def ratings:

OKC - 11th ranked defense
SA - 3rd ranked defense
GS - 5th ranked defense

The fact that he called the Celtics a great defensive team, when they weren't even a top 3 defense. Saying that Allen was a good defender. A bunch of other stuff.

[3ball]

Jordan '98 Finals: 51.6%TS
Kobe '00 Finals: 41.1%TS
Kobe '01 Finals: 50.1%TS
Kobe '09 Finals: 52.5%TS
Kobe '10 Finals: 52.8%TS
Okay, but only lebron was a net negative (heat lost with him on the floor)

Furthermore:

31 on 46% got a 3-0 lead

>

16 on 39% almost got 0-3 deficit and needed Ray to force game 7


No comparison - lebron was legit bad in the 13' Finals and should've lost.. only lebron averaged 23 on 43% thru 6 games, which was insufficient and needed Ray to make a game 7

[LAL]

The fact that he called the Celtics a great defensive team, when they weren't even a top 3 defense. Saying that Allen was a good defender. A bunch of other stuff.
Yeeaah.. ..

[aj1987]

Yeeaah.. ..

Great argument with a bunch of facts, as usual, idiot. :cheers:

[LAL]

Great argument with a bunch of facts, as usual, idiot. :cheers:

No no you're right, how can anyone say those celtics were good defensively.. right??

[FromDowntown]

https://i.postimg.cc/MKD4mtb1/Lplploiu6up9nb44h.jpg

[Axe]

https://i.postimg.cc/MKD4mtb1/Lplploiu6up9nb44h.jpg
bAsKeTbAlL iS aN iNdIvIdUaL sPoRt

[Overdrive]

https://i.postimg.cc/MKD4mtb1/Lplploiu6up9nb44h.jpg

Kobe got 2 without Shaq. Hence > Lebron.

[FromDowntown]

Did some fool use ppg over DefRtg to compare teams for THAT year? :lol

Again...

2016 GSW top 5 defense
2013 SAS top 3 defense

Rookies posting these days sheesh

[GimmeThat]

well, you know future hall of famers will be helping out Kobe and MJ's family, while they'll probably pass on someone like Lebron

[aj1987]

No no you're right, how can anyone say those celtics were good defensively.. right??

He called the '10 Celtics a great defensive team, shit for brains. A mentally challenged toddler has better comprehension of the English language than you. :facepalm:

[LAL]

He called the '10 Celtics a great defensive team, shit for brains. A mentally challenged toddler has better comprehension of the English language than you. :facepalm:

Yes yes aj, yes they sucked..

[ImKobe]

Did some fool use ppg over DefRtg to compare teams for THAT year? :lol

Again...

2016 GSW top 5 defense
2013 SAS top 3 defense

Rookies posting these days sheesh

Gotta knock down some points for GSW since Bogut got injured in Game 5 & Iggy got injured in Game 6, to go along with the Green suspension.

[Turbo Slayer]

Gotta knock down some points for GSW since Bogut got injured in Game 5 & Iggy got injured in Game 6, to go along with the Green suspension.

1. Dont forget that Love missed GM 3 as well.

[ImKobe]

1. Dont forget that Love missed GM 3 as well.

I think that's a good thing for the Cavs.

[aj1987]

Yes yes aj, yes they sucked..

Did you get lobotomized? That might actually make you a bit smarter.

[FromDowntown]

1. Dont forget that Love missed GM 3 as well.

Bingo

:dancin