View Full Version : Since Lebron averaged 16 on 39% for the first 3 games of 2013 Finals.....
3ball
04-13-2020, 01:52 PM
doesn't that mean lots of guys would've won in his place?
Many guys would've averaged 25 or 30 and been up 3-0.
Docs Orders
04-13-2020, 01:54 PM
no pip no chip
LAmbruh
04-13-2020, 01:56 PM
no Pip, no Chip
HoopsNY
04-13-2020, 01:58 PM
3ball, this type of post really isn't necessary. Tearing down the legacy of LeBron James with posts such as this one doesn't do justice to his career. And I don't think this is an objective way of analyzing that entire series, though I do see where you're coming from.
3ball
04-13-2020, 01:58 PM
no Pip, no Chip
Bron was a net negative for the series.. his 23 on 43% was insufficient through 6 games and required Ray Allen to force game 7
3ball
04-13-2020, 01:59 PM
3ball, this type of post really isn't necessary. Tearing down the legacy of LeBron James with posts such as this one doesn't do justice to his career. And I don't think this is an objective way of analyzing that entire series, though I do see where you're coming from.
The very fact that he's a lucky bounce away from being a 1 ring bum lets us know that he shouldn't be in the goat conversation
HoopsNY
04-13-2020, 02:00 PM
The very fact that he's a lucky bounce away from being a 1 ring bum lets us know that he shouldn't be in the goat conversation
Well I agree with him not being in the GOAT conversation. There isn't anyone who is even close to MJ in that regard. But I do feel there are more objective ways of looking at it.
Docs Orders
04-13-2020, 02:00 PM
Bron was a net negative for the series.. his 23 on 43% was insufficient through 6 games and required Ray Allen to force game 7
no pip no chip
3ball
04-13-2020, 02:04 PM
Well I agree with him not being in the GOAT conversation. There isn't anyone who is even close to MJ in that regard. But I do feel there are more objective ways of looking at it.
Idk
16 on 39% while being guarded by Diaw and being given open jumpers is bad by any standard
Furthermore, the Spurs specifically targeted the poor fit between Wade/Lebron - they were coming off one to help on the other's drives, thus forcing them to pass to each other for spot-ups (their weakness).. SB Nation detailed this dynamic with endless footage in their article after Game 6
Other guys like Dirk wouldn't have the poor fit with Wade and would've beaten the Spurs easily... Heck, his 8 seed almost beat the Spurs the following year in 2014
Turbo Slayer
04-13-2020, 02:06 PM
LeBron came up in the clutch 4th qtr. He scored 10+ points in the 4th and hit up a 3 to make it possible to tie the game. Also Ray Allen shot didnt win game 6 exactly. It led to OT. You know who put up the go ahead shot in OT? Lebron James.
3ball
04-13-2020, 02:08 PM
LeBron came up in the clutch 4th qtr. He scored 10+ points in the 4th and hit up a 3 to make it possible to tie the game. Also Ray Allen shot didnt win game 6 exactly. It led to OT. You know who put up the go ahead shot? Lebron James.
Why was there even a game 6?
Look no further than the first 3 games: 16, 18, 17 points....
Yikes.. way to show leadership lol... Tons of guys win in his place
Turbo Slayer
04-13-2020, 02:45 PM
Idk
16 on 39% while being guarded by Diaw and being given open jumpers is bad by any standard
Furthermore, the Spurs specifically targeted the poor fit between Wade/Lebron - they were coming off one to help on the other's drives, thus forcing them to pass to each other for spot-ups (their weakness).. SB Nation detailed this dynamic with endless footage in their article after Game 6
Other guys like Dirk wouldn't have the poor fit with Wade and would've beaten the Spurs easily... Heck, his 8 seed almost beat the Spurs the following year in 2014
1.The problem with some of your statement is that its all hypothetical...meaning it doesnt mean anything...
2. You criticize LeBron for the series going 7 but how about Kobe? Lets apply your criteria to Kobe. In 2008, the Celtics got taken by the Hawks and the Cavs (both inferior supporting casts and also LeBron had an inferior skillset compared to Kobe like you claimed yet Kobe still lost) to 7 games before winning both series. In the Finals, the Lakers got demolished by the Celtics despite Kobe´s ¨superior¨ fit.
The offensive styles doesnt mean anything.
aj1987
04-13-2020, 02:48 PM
Idk
16 on 39% while being guarded by Diaw and being given open jumpers is bad by any standard
Diaw played a total of 18 minutes in the first three games. LeBron played 20 minutes in the first half of G1. Diaw didn't even play G3.
Why do you insist on talking about games you've never watched? Heck, a sport you've never watched in your life.
Why was there even a game 6?
Look no further than the first 3 games: 16, 18, 17 points....
Yikes.. way to show leadership lol... Tons of guys win in his place
I remember feeling bad for dude when they left him wide open daring to shoot jumpers looking absolutely scared and pathetic.. But those numbers? in his prime? For the king of stats??
Turbo Slayer
04-13-2020, 02:51 PM
I remember feeling bad for dude when they left him wide open daring to shoot jumpers looking absolutely scared and pathetic.. But those numbers? in his prime? For the king of stats??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDDzmksK4fw&t=303s
tpols
04-13-2020, 02:56 PM
that was when boris diaw had him locked up right?
:lol
funny stuff. that man was fat, cant just stiff arm your way to the cup on him.
3ball
04-13-2020, 03:01 PM
The offensive styles doesnt mean anything
.
Then why have a coaching staff - just roll the ball out and let the brothas play....
Nope... Sorry....
Brand of ball matters and lebron's is the worst, so he has the least rings, worst ring frequency, and worst championship record of any top 10 candidate in the modern era
Only Lebron's teams get massively out-assisted in the championship as a standard... That's because he holds the ball longer than anyone in history.. it shouldn't be a surprise that a version of harden-ball is a perennial underdog and loser in the championship
OP is due for another ban.
Uncle Drew
04-13-2020, 03:19 PM
No Pip?
Turbo Slayer
04-13-2020, 03:38 PM
Then why have a coaching staff - just roll the ball out and let the brothas play....
Nope... Sorry....
Brand of ball matters and lebron's is the worst, so he has the least rings, worst ring frequency, and worst championship record of any top 10 candidate in the modern era
Only Lebron's teams get massively out-assisted in the championship as a standard... That's because he holds the ball longer than anyone in history.. it shouldn't be a surprise that a version of harden-ball is a perennial underdog and loser in the championship Answer my question: How many players have won 3 titles or more as the man? I said this to you and I will repeat it again to say it.
harden-ball is a perennial underdog and loser Then come Harden and Rockets won 65 games and were 1st in the West? Your point makes no sense. Harden-ball also allowed Harden to win MVP. Harden and the Rockets only lost in the Playoffs b/c they had the misfortune to go up against those GSW teams. You dont ever add context. You just say anything you want to further your agenda and to fool other posters.
I also notice that you ignore the rest of my post (Post #12) when it is convenient for you. What gives?
It shows that you cant handle reality.
Vino24
04-13-2020, 03:39 PM
6,911
Ever since LeBron took over in playoff points op has been in full meltdown mode
good afternoon 3ball, hope all is well hope you're feeling great today.
how come you still haven't answered my question if lebron is so bad and such a fake superstar then why does he have 3 finals MVPs? ray allen is not a good answer one shot doesnt win you 3 finals MVPs.
and how come you haven't answered my other question - if the bulls supporting cast is so bad and if pippen is such a fake allstar then why did he lead the bulls to 55-wins?
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1994.html
thats a top-3 seed FYI.
mj nowhere to be found. banned from the league for his gambling debts so scrubbing it up playing baseball in the meantime.
scottie "the trunk" pippen carrying the franchise. 55 wins.
that was when boris diaw had him locked up right?
:lol
funny stuff. that man was fat, cant just stiff arm your way to the cup on him.
boris is a wide body.
mj never went up against such width in his time.
https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/2e87ae3a4c9f383e059fb4538930f7467ee674c6/c=0-2-1262-712/local/-/media/2017/03/01/USATODAY/usatsports/screen-shot-2017-03-01-at-4-16-59-pm.png
StrongLurk
04-13-2020, 04:36 PM
I've always said Lebron's 2013 playoff run and finals were disappointing for his standards...people just conveniently forget about it because the Heat won the chip that year. But he played below his 2013 regular season standard by quite a bit and was very shaky through the first 5 games of the finals.
His playoff run is also why I refuse to say 2013 is peak Lebron...I can understand why people want to say that because his jumper was on fire the whole year (at least from 3). He's had plenty of better playoff runs than 2013, at least 5 better.
Kblaze8855
04-13-2020, 05:26 PM
There is no outcome that you would accept. If he spends the end of game 3 gunning down 35 he’s just padding stats. If he’s doing the same in their blowout win in game 2 when he was +30 it would be the same(you could argue he did actually). Averages in 20-35 point games? This is the same bullshit people use against Bird in 81 talking about 12 point games like your points matter in a massive blowout win or when you’re down 35 and half the fame is garbage time. He stat pads more those games you just shift to game 1. You trolls on both ends of this shit spend years repeating yourselves as if you even have good points to begin with.
No different than the morons talking about Lebrons playoff totals under different series rules with no first round bye like first seeds used to get.
Turbo Slayer
04-13-2020, 05:35 PM
There is no outcome that you would accept. If he spends the end of game 3 gunning down 35 he’s just padding stats. If he’s doing the same in their blowout win in game 2 when he was +30 it would be the same(you could argue he did actually). Averages in 20-35 point games? This is the same bullshit people use against Bird in 81 talking about 12 point games like your points matter in a massive blowout win or when you’re down 35 and half the fame is garbage time. He stat pads more those games you just shift to game 1. You trolls on both ends of this shit spend years repeating yourselves as if you even have good points to begin with.
No different than the morons talking about Lebrons playoff totals under different series rules with no first round bye like first seeds used to get. Are you planning to suspend some accounts this week/weekend? Merely a question.
tpols
04-13-2020, 05:39 PM
while it is true danny green going ape shit made for some blowouts, Lebron still wasnt playing well in that series.
He was 7/16 and 8/22 in games 1 and 4 which were closer. Him and Wade had a negative spread playing together (by a lot).
The spurs had them figured out and were squeaking it out on the back of an ancient duncan, hot green, and hamstrung tony parker.
It shouldve never been close if you compare the talent disparity of the two teams.
There is no outcome that you would accept. If he spends the end of game 3 gunning down 35 he’s just padding stats. If he’s doing the same in their blowout win in game 2 when he was +30 it would be the same(you could argue he did actually). Averages in 20-35 point games? This is the same bullshit people use against Bird in 81 talking about 12 point games like your points matter in a massive blowout win or when you’re down 35 and half the fame is garbage time. He stat pads more those games you just shift to game 1. You trolls on both ends of this shit spend years repeating yourselves as if you even have good points to begin with.
No different than the morons talking about Lebrons playoff totals under different series rules with no first round bye like first seeds used to get.
exactly. 3ball would twist the narrative regardless of the outcome the same way we prop up the playoff scoring record. 3ball already argues 3 fake rings acting like ray allen won every championship for the heat and cavs.
with a rational post like this you'd think kblaze is a part of the athletic greatness fam but he's actually a bulls fan. OP is actually right lebron had a slow start to the series but that is a great thing because the narratives are even better now than they could have been.
it's given us the game 7 james narrative and elimination game james narrative. game 6 brought the team back from down 10 series on the line with incredible defense scoring and playmaking put up a triple double, plus a signature game 7 jumpshot to ice the championship putting up 37 points preventing pop from going 6/6 in the finals and getting the nod of approval from pop as that being "the greatness of a superstar" after the game.
nickname from pat riley BOAT best of all time
https://www.complex.com/sports/2012/12/lebron-james-was-given-the-nickname-boat-by-pat-riley
buh buh ray allen buh buh fake superstar
https://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2818159/lebronclutch.gif
the narrative against duncan and the spurs fans aka skip bayless is just the gravy on top
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/IdealisticSpicyCats-size_restricted.gif
skip is bandwagoning the clippers now. :roll:
I've always said Lebron's 2013 playoff run and finals were disappointing for his standards...people just conveniently forget about it because the Heat won the chip that year. But he played below his 2013 regular season standard by quite a bit and was very shaky through the first 5 games of the finals.
His playoff run is also why I refuse to say 2013 is peak Lebron...I can understand why people want to say that because his jumper was on fire the whole year (at least from 3). He's had plenty of better playoff runs than 2013, at least 5 better.
2012 was peak LeBron. IDGAF if his jumper was bad, literally nothing was going to stop him from winning that year.
FromDowntown
04-13-2020, 08:02 PM
https://i.postimg.cc/MKD4mtb1/Lplploiu6up9nb44h.jpg
3ball
04-14-2020, 05:49 AM
2012 was peak LeBron. IDGAF if his jumper was bad, literally nothing was going to stop him from winning that year.
- 2012 Wade > prime Pippen
- 2012 Bosh > Kukoc or Grant
- Facing babies and Westbrook
^^^ Kinda hard to lose with that... Lebron was outplayed by Durant as usual but still won
ArbitraryWater
04-14-2020, 06:01 AM
damn, he averaged 32/10/7 on 48% from games 4-7!!
I think we can go the ImKobe route here, just forget about the first 3 games since those were 2 blowouts.
Looks like Bron has himself another epic finals!
3ball
04-14-2020, 06:11 AM
damn, he averaged 32/10/7 on 48% from games 4-7!!
I think we can go the ImKobe route here, just forget about the first 3 games since those were 2 blowouts.
Looks like Bron has himself another epic finals!
so his best play was below MJ's average
and anyone else just averages 25-30 and has a 3-0 or 2-1 lead... Instead, lebron risked being down 0-3 with his horrible play - his teammates saved him by the only being down 1-2... Then Ray saved him again in game 6
Turbo Slayer
04-14-2020, 07:03 AM
so his best play was below MJ's average
and anyone else just averages 25-30 and has a 3-0 or 2-1 lead... Instead, lebron risked being down 0-3 with his horrible play - his teammates saved him by the only being down 1-2... Then Ray saved him again in game 6
1. Some of your statements are hypotheticals. It doesnt mean anything in a discussion.
2. Please get rid of the narrative that Ray Allen saved LeBron in the NBA Finals. It simply doesnt need repeating. I will agree with you that Ray Allens shot was luck but we cant choose to ignore context. Before Ray Allens shot, LeBron James scored 10+ points in 4th qtr. Pretty damn impressive I would say. He shot a 3 before the Ray 3 to make it possible to comeback. If LeBron never hits that shot Ray Allen 3 wouldnt have existed... P.S. Ray Allens shot didnt win the game it only tied it therefore leading to OT where there was another possible chance that the Spurs could win...
3. In Game 6 Overtime LeBron James hit the go ahead shot to give the Heat the lead. You choose to ignore which only shows your ignorance to context.
4. There was still Game 7 to play. LeBron went crazy that game with 37 points and the clutch dagger. If the Heat didnt win GM 7 then Ray Allens shot wouldnt have mattered...
5. The problem with your approach/criteria is that you can literally apply yours to any player in NBA history. Sometimes a superstar needs a roleplayer to get the team over the hump. It shows you wont confront and accept reality for what it is.
https://i.postimg.cc/MKD4mtb1/Lplploiu6up9nb44h.jpg
You should realize that lbj is actually 0-6 in the finals without james jones in the lineup.
Just sayin'.
HakeemAlHilm
04-14-2020, 08:51 AM
Plus/Minus doesn't mean "net negative"
You're trying to use +/- to represent net rating but you're being misleading (intentionally or not)
The heat had a net rating of
ONCOURT (LEBRON) : -0.6
OFFCOURT (LEBRON) : -5.1
https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612748&VsPlayerID=2544&Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&OpponentTeamID=1610612759
So Heat were worse without Lebron.
Turbo Slayer
04-14-2020, 08:54 AM
Plus/Minus doesn't mean "net negative"
You're trying to use +/- to represent net rating but you're being misleading (intentionally or not)
The heat had a net rating of
ONCOURT (LEBRON) : -0.6
OFFCOURT (LEBRON) : -5.1
https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612748&VsPlayerID=2544&Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&OpponentTeamID=1610612759
So Heat were worse without Lebron. Good post!
Vino24
04-14-2020, 11:42 AM
Plus/Minus doesn't mean "net negative"
You're trying to use +/- to represent net rating but you're being misleading (intentionally or not)
The heat had a net rating of
ONCOURT (LEBRON) : -0.6
OFFCOURT (LEBRON) : -5.1
https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612748&VsPlayerID=2544&Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Playoffs&OpponentTeamID=1610612759
So Heat were worse without Lebron.
Big facts
ImKobe
04-14-2020, 12:46 PM
damn, he averaged 32/10/7 on 48% from games 4-7!!
I think we can go the ImKobe route here, just forget about the first 3 games since those were 2 blowouts.
Looks like Bron has himself another epic finals!
Except he was trying his best to throw Game 6, before getting bailed out by missed FTs & Chris Bosh & Ray Allen. What was it, 4 TOs and 2/7 shooting in the last 7 minutes of that game? And Game 1 definitely wasn't a blowout, Tony Parker hit the dagger in his face.
Wally450
04-14-2020, 01:01 PM
Except he was trying his best to throw Game 6, before getting bailed out by missed FTs & Chris Bosh & Ray Allen. What was it, 4 TOs and 2/7 shooting in the last 7 minutes of that game? And Game 1 definitely wasn't a blowout, Tony Parker hit the dagger in his face.
How did he try to throw the game when he hit the 3 to make it 94-92?
ImKobe
04-14-2020, 01:06 PM
How did he try to throw the game when he hit the 3 to make it 94-92?
Didn't he have 2 or 3 straight turnovers, which completely changed the momentum in that 4th quarter? He made 1/3 of his threes in that last minute. Does one made shot even out the 4 TOs and all the other missed shots? He had a good overall game numbers-wise, I'll give you that much.
Turbo Slayer
04-14-2020, 01:14 PM
Except he was trying his best to throw Game 6, before getting bailed out by missed FTs & Chris Bosh & Ray Allen. What was it, 4 TOs and 2/7 shooting in the last 7 minutes of that game? And Game 1 definitely wasn't a blowout, Tony Parker hit the dagger in his face. 1. Please get rid of the narrative that Ray Allen saved LeBron in the NBA Finals. It simply doesnt need repeating. I will agree with you that Ray Allens shot was luck but we cant choose to ignore context. Before Ray Allens shot, LeBron James scored 10+ points in 4th qtr. Pretty damn impressive I would say. He shot a 3 before the Ray 3 to make it possible to comeback. If LeBron never hits that shot Ray Allen 3 wouldnt have existed... P.S. Ray Allens shot didnt win the game it only tied it therefore leading to OT where there was another possible chance that the Spurs could win...
2. In Game 6 Overtime LeBron James hit the go ahead shot to give the Heat the lead.
3. There was still Game 7 to play. LeBron went crazy that game with 37 points and the clutch dagger. If the Heat didnt win GM 7 then Ray Allens shot wouldnt have mattered...
4. The problem with your approach is that you can literally apply yours to any player in NBA history. Sometimes a superstar needs a roleplayer to get the team over the hump. It shows you wont confront and accept reality for what it is.
ImKobe
04-14-2020, 01:26 PM
1. Please get rid of the narrative that Ray Allen saved LeBron in the NBA Finals. It simply doesnt need repeating. I will agree with you that Ray Allens shot was luck but we cant choose to ignore context. Before Ray Allens shot, LeBron James scored 10+ points in 4th qtr. Pretty damn impressive I would say. He shot a 3 before the Ray 3 to make it possible to comeback. If LeBron never hits that shot Ray Allen 3 wouldnt have existed... P.S. Ray Allens shot didnt win the game it only tied it therefore leading to OT where there was another possible chance that the Spurs could win...
2. In Game 6 Overtime LeBron James hit the go ahead shot to give the Heat the lead.
3. There was still Game 7 to play. LeBron went crazy that game with 37 points and the clutch dagger. If the Heat didnt win GM 7 then Ray Allens shot wouldnt have mattered...
4. The problem with your approach is that you can literally apply yours to any player in NBA history. Sometimes a superstar needs a roleplayer to get the team over the hump. It shows you wont confront and accept reality for what it is.
Lebron only made 1 out of 3 shots in that OT and Chris Bosh blocked the game-tying 3 at the end. He needed a lot of luck to win a game down 5 with 28 seconds to go. Spurs make their FTs and it's basically unwinnable, it takes a ridiculous amount of luck to have two elite FT shooters (Kawhi, Manu) each miss a FT to ice the game. Lebron had a good game, but he wasn't great in crunch time. He made the go-ahead shot, but that was with 1:43 to go. Manu was all-time bad in that game, -21 in a 3-point loss. Parker was 6/23 as well but had some clutch moments.
FireDavidKahn
04-14-2020, 01:48 PM
doesn't that mean lots of guys would've won in his place?
Many guys would've averaged 25 or 30 and been up 3-0.
Uhhh...no. Heat were 1-2 with LeBron playing like that.
Next 4 LeBron went 3-1 and averaged 31.8 points on 48%/43%/78.8%, 10 rpg, 7 apg, 3 spg, 1 bpg including in Game 7: 37 points pm 52.2%/50% (5 of 10!)/100%, 12 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals.
Your argument literally backs up the argument that the team wouldn't have won without LeBron.
1-2 with him playing like crap and 3-1 with him playing amazing along with an incredible game 7 performance.
brother 3ball? I have given you many hours of my life reading and responding your posts - why have you been ducking my questions for years?
good afternoon 3ball, hope all is well hope you're feeling great today.
how come you still haven't answered my question if lebron is so bad and such a fake superstar then why does he have 3 finals MVPs? ray allen is not a good answer one shot doesnt win you 3 finals MVPs.
and how come you haven't answered my other question - if the bulls supporting cast is so bad and if pippen is such a fake allstar then why did he lead the bulls to 55-wins?
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1994.html
thats a top-3 seed FYI.
mj nowhere to be found. banned from the league for his gambling debts so scrubbing it up playing baseball in the meantime.
scottie "the trunk" pippen carrying the franchise. 55 wins.
you tried to make the argument that MJ won with the least help ever. how is it that such a bad supporting cast won 55 games?
I get it I get it MJ built the chemistry and MJ turned them into winners - is it possible that the squad also happens to... gasp.... have some talent? pippen? horace grant?
and you always trash the thunder as young and the spurs as old.
what is the best team that mike (and the bulls) beat?
warriorfan
04-14-2020, 03:36 PM
doesn't that mean lots of guys would've won in his place?
Many guys would've averaged 25 or 30 and been up 3-0.
I’ve said this many times. If you look at the first 4 games he was putting up a 2011 like performance. He only started producing after Adam silver suspended green and Gs’s other two best defenders went down with injury.
I’ve said this many times. If you look at the first 4 games he was putting up a 2011 like performance. He only started producing after Adam silver suspended green and Gs’s other two best defenders went down with injury.
warriorfan you know I'm a lifelong fan of the dubs since I've been in the womb - in my opinion silver did us dubs fans a favor when he suspended green.
green sucks.
3ball
04-14-2020, 04:12 PM
you tried to make the argument that MJ won with the least help ever. how is it that such a bad supporting cast won 55 games?
I get it I get it MJ built the chemistry and MJ turned them into winners - is it possible that the squad also happens to... gasp.... have some talent? pippen? horace grant?
The Bulls "supporting cast" was outscored in many Finals actually. Looking at double figure scorers outside of the top player for each team:
91 Finals (minus Jordan's 31.2 ppg)
Pippen: 20.8 ppg
Grant: 14.6 ppg
Paxson: 13.4 ppg
Lakers (minus Magic)
Divac: 18.2 ppg
Worthy: 19.3 ppg
Perkins: 16.6 ppg
Advantage: Lakers
92 Finals (minus Jordan's 35.8 ppg)
Pippen: 20.8 ppg
Paxson: 10.3 ppg
Grant: 9.2 ppg
Cartwright: 6.3 ppg
Blazers (minus Drexler)
Porter: 16.2 ppg
Kersey: 14.8 ppg
Robinson: 10.3 ppg
Ainge: 10 ppg
Advantage: Blazers (though its a bit closer here)
1993 Finals (minus Jordan's whopping 41 ppg)
Pippen: 21.2 ppg
Armstrong: 13.5 ppg
Grant: 11.2 ppg
Suns (minus Barkley)
K. Johnson: 17.2 ppg
Majerle: 17.2 ppg
Dumas: 15.8 ppg
Advantage: Suns
1996 Finals (minus Jordan's 27.3 ppg)
Pippen: 15.7 ppg
Kukoc: 13 ppg
Longley: 11.7 ppg
Sonics (minus Kemp)
Payton: 18 ppg
Schrempf: 16.3 ppg
Hawkins: 13.3 ppg
Advantage: Sonics
1997 Finals (minus Jordan's 32.3 ppg)
Pippen: 20 ppg
Kukoc: 8 ppg
Bison Dele: 6.8 ppg
Jazz (minus Malone)
Stockton: 15 ppg
Hornacek: 12 ppg
Russell: 11.3 ppg
Advantage: Jazz
1998 Finals (minus Jordan's 33.5 ppg)
Pippen: 15.7 ppg
Kukoc: 15.2 ppg
Harper: 5.3 ppg
Jazz (minus Malone)
Hornacek: 10.7 ppg
Stockton: 9.7 ppg
Russell: 8.8 ppg
Advantage: Bulls, largely on Kukoc having a good series but keep in mind Pippen basically was crippled by game 6 with a back injury.
The main takeaway I see is the Bulls were top heavy, and other teams actually had better overall depth scoring a lot of the time, the Bulls were especially weak with a 3rd scoring option.
Overall the premise that Jordan had far more help versus his opponents doesn't really fly unless you believe basketball is a 2-on-2 sport. Jordan was simply way better than the top players on the other teams, the Bulls players no.2-no.10 weren't necessarily better than many teams.
horace grant?
Horace < Otis Thorpe
And quite easily... Both were simple dunkers, but Otis was more powerful
Yet I don't hear you lauding Hakeem's help (caught)..
if everyone on a team was a worse scorer than Horace, the team would win literally zero games... otoh, love and Bosh won 40+
And regarding Pippen - he cost MJ rings from 88-90' - 100 guys that he's ranked ahead of would've won titles with MJ those years and had an insurmountable lead on Pippen in the all-time rankings - Pippen would never recover to be ranked higher all-time like he is now - he simply won the "play with MJ" lottery, while his actual production was far less than his peers
SouBeachTalents
04-14-2020, 04:16 PM
The Bulls "supporting cast" was outscored in many Finals actually. Looking at double figure scorers outside of the top player for each team:
91 Finals (minus Jordan's 31.2 ppg)
Pippen: 20.8 ppg
Grant: 14.6 ppg
Paxson: 13.4 ppg
Lakers (minus Magic)
Divac: 18.2 ppg
Worthy: 19.3 ppg
Perkins: 16.6 ppg
Advantage: Lakers
92 Finals (minus Jordan's 35.8 ppg)
Pippen: 20.8 ppg
Paxson: 10.3 ppg
Grant: 9.2 ppg
Cartwright: 6.3 ppg
Blazers (minus Drexler)
Porter: 16.2 ppg
Kersey: 14.8 ppg
Robinson: 10.3 ppg
Ainge: 10 ppg
Advantage: Blazers (though its a bit closer here)
1993 Finals (minus Jordan's whopping 41 ppg)
Pippen: 21.2 ppg
Armstrong: 13.5 ppg
Grant: 11.2 ppg
Suns (minus Barkley)
K. Johnson: 17.2 ppg
Majerle: 17.2 ppg
Dumas: 15.8 ppg
Advantage: Suns
1996 Finals (minus Jordan's 27.3 ppg)
Pippen: 15.7 ppg
Kukoc: 13 ppg
Longley: 11.7 ppg
Sonics (minus Kemp)
Payton: 18 ppg
Schrempf: 16.3 ppg
Hawkins: 13.3 ppg
Advantage: Sonics
1997 Finals (minus Jordan's 32.3 ppg)
Pippen: 20 ppg
Kukoc: 8 ppg
Bison Dele: 6.8 ppg
Jazz (minus Malone)
Stockton: 15 ppg
Hornacek: 12 ppg
Russell: 11.3 ppg
Advantage: Jazz
1998 Finals (minus Jordan's 33.5 ppg)
Pippen: 15.7 ppg
Kukoc: 15.2 ppg
Harper: 5.3 ppg
Jazz (minus Malone)
Hornacek: 10.7 ppg
Stockton: 9.7 ppg
Russell: 8.8 ppg
Advantage: Bulls, largely on Kukoc having a good series but keep in mind Pippen basically was crippled by game 6 with a back injury.
The main takeaway I see is the Bulls were top heavy, and other teams actually had better overall depth scoring a lot of the time, the Bulls were especially weak with a 3rd scoring option.
Overall the premise that Jordan had far more help versus his opponents doesn't really fly unless you believe basketball is a 2-on-2 sport. Jordan was simply way better than the top players on the other teams, the Bulls players no.2-no.10 weren't necessarily better than many teams.
Horace < Otis Thorpe
And quite easily... Both were simple dunkers, but Otis was more powerful
Yet I don't hear you lauding Hakeem's help (caught)..
if everyone on a team was a worse scorer than Horace, the team would win literally zero games... otoh, love and Bosh won 40+
And regarding Pippen - he cost MJ rings from 88-90' - 100 guys that he's ranked ahead of would've won titles with MJ those years and had an insurmountable lead on Pippen in the all-time rankings - Pippen would never recover to be ranked higher all-time like he is now - he simply won the "play with MJ" lottery, while his actual production was far less than his peers
1-9
]The Bulls "supporting cast" was outscored in many Finals actually. Looking at double figure scorers outside of the top player for each team:
91 Finals (minus Jordan's 31.2 ppg)
Pippen: 20.8 ppg
Grant: 14.6 ppg
Paxson: 13.4 ppg
Lakers (minus Magic)
Divac: 18.2 ppg
Worthy: 19.3 ppg
Perkins: 16.6 ppg
Advantage: Lakers
92 Finals (minus Jordan's 35.8 ppg)
Pippen: 20.8 ppg
Paxson: 10.3 ppg
Grant: 9.2 ppg
Cartwright: 6.3 ppg
Blazers (minus Drexler)
Porter: 16.2 ppg
Kersey: 14.8 ppg
Robinson: 10.3 ppg
Ainge: 10 ppg
Advantage: Blazers (though its a bit closer here)
1993 Finals (minus Jordan's whopping 41 ppg)
Pippen: 21.2 ppg
Armstrong: 13.5 ppg
Grant: 11.2 ppg
Suns (minus Barkley)
K. Johnson: 17.2 ppg
Majerle: 17.2 ppg
Dumas: 15.8 ppg
Advantage: Suns
1996 Finals (minus Jordan's 27.3 ppg)
Pippen: 15.7 ppg
Kukoc: 13 ppg
Longley: 11.7 ppg
Sonics (minus Kemp)
Payton: 18 ppg
Schrempf: 16.3 ppg
Hawkins: 13.3 ppg
Advantage: Sonics
1997 Finals (minus Jordan's 32.3 ppg)
Pippen: 20 ppg
Kukoc: 8 ppg
Bison Dele: 6.8 ppg
Jazz (minus Malone)
Stockton: 15 ppg
Hornacek: 12 ppg
Russell: 11.3 ppg
Advantage: Jazz
1998 Finals (minus Jordan's 33.5 ppg)
Pippen: 15.7 ppg
Kukoc: 15.2 ppg
Harper: 5.3 ppg
Jazz (minus Malone)
Hornacek: 10.7 ppg
Stockton: 9.7 ppg
Russell: 8.8 ppg
Advantage: Bulls, largely on Kukoc having a good series but keep in mind Pippen basically was crippled by game 6 with a back injury.
The main takeaway I see is the Bulls were top heavy, and other teams actually had better overall depth scoring a lot of the time, the Bulls were especially weak with a 3rd scoring option.
Overall the premise that Jordan had far more help versus his opponents doesn't really fly unless you believe basketball is a 2-on-2 sport. Jordan was simply way better than the top players on the other teams, the Bulls players no.2-no.10 weren't necessarily better than many teams.
Horace < Otis Thorpe
And quite easily... Both were simple dunkers, but Otis was more powerful
Yet I don't hear you lauding Hakeem's help
And regarding Pippen - he cost MJ rings from 88-90' - 100 guys that he's ranked ahead of would've won titles with MJ those years and had an insurmountable lead on Pippen in the all-time rankings - Pippen would never recover to be ranked higher all-time like he is now - he simply won the "play with MJ" lottery, while his actual production was far less than his peers
jordan took a high volume of shots - why would you be surprised that his supporting cast was being outscored?
you're showing scoring numbers in the finals - how did they win 55 in '94 without mike playing a single game? how can that possibly be a terrible cast or the worst supporting cast?
and no, I wont laud hakeem's help - because it wasn't as good as mike's. you're the one who talks about "stacked teams" 24/7 I think I may even have stolen that from you. FYI you're doing the arbitrary comparison thing again - otis thorpe was an allstar anways so whats your point? and thorpe was hakeem's second option meanwhile grant was the third best player for the bulls.
The Bulls "supporting cast" was outscored in many Finals actually. Looking at double figure scorers outside of the top player for each team:
91 Finals (minus Jordan's 31.2 ppg)
Pippen: 20.8 ppg
Grant: 14.6 ppg
Paxson: 13.4 ppg
Lakers (minus Magic)
Divac: 18.2 ppg
Worthy: 19.3 ppg
Perkins: 16.6 ppg
Advantage: Lakers
92 Finals (minus Jordan's 35.8 ppg)
Pippen: 20.8 ppg
Paxson: 10.3 ppg
Grant: 9.2 ppg
Cartwright: 6.3 ppg
Blazers (minus Drexler)
Porter: 16.2 ppg
Kersey: 14.8 ppg
Robinson: 10.3 ppg
Ainge: 10 ppg
Advantage: Blazers (though its a bit closer here)
1993 Finals (minus Jordan's whopping 41 ppg)
Pippen: 21.2 ppg
Armstrong: 13.5 ppg
Grant: 11.2 ppg
Suns (minus Barkley)
K. Johnson: 17.2 ppg
Majerle: 17.2 ppg
Dumas: 15.8 ppg
Advantage: Suns
1996 Finals (minus Jordan's 27.3 ppg)
Pippen: 15.7 ppg
Kukoc: 13 ppg
Longley: 11.7 ppg
Sonics (minus Kemp)
Payton: 18 ppg
Schrempf: 16.3 ppg
Hawkins: 13.3 ppg
Advantage: Sonics
1997 Finals (minus Jordan's 32.3 ppg)
Pippen: 20 ppg
Kukoc: 8 ppg
Bison Dele: 6.8 ppg
Jazz (minus Malone)
Stockton: 15 ppg
Hornacek: 12 ppg
Russell: 11.3 ppg
Advantage: Jazz
1998 Finals (minus Jordan's 33.5 ppg)
Pippen: 15.7 ppg
Kukoc: 15.2 ppg
Harper: 5.3 ppg
Jazz (minus Malone)
Hornacek: 10.7 ppg
Stockton: 9.7 ppg
Russell: 8.8 ppg
Advantage: Bulls, largely on Kukoc having a good series but keep in mind Pippen basically was crippled by game 6 with a back injury.
The main takeaway I see is the Bulls were top heavy, and other teams actually had better overall depth scoring a lot of the time, the Bulls were especially weak with a 3rd scoring option.
Overall the premise that Jordan had far more help versus his opponents doesn't really fly unless you believe basketball is a 2-on-2 sport. Jordan was simply way better than the top players on the other teams, the Bulls players no.2-no.10 weren't necessarily better than many teams.
Horace < Otis Thorpe
And quite easily... Both were simple dunkers, but Otis was more powerful
Yet I don't hear you lauding Hakeem's help (caught)..
if everyone on a team was a worse scorer than Horace, the team would win literally zero games... otoh, love and Bosh won 40+
And regarding Pippen - he cost MJ rings from 88-90' - 100 guys that he's ranked ahead of would've won titles with MJ those years and had an insurmountable lead on Pippen in the all-time rankings - Pippen would never recover to be ranked higher all-time like he is now - he simply won the "play with MJ" lottery, while his actual production was far less than his peers
so what you just did is show scoring numbers in the finals like that reveals anything - you didnt show shot attempts because you know it will kill your argument. pippen and kukoc definitely would've scored more if some of jordan's volume shots were sent their way.
and scoring in the finals isnt the best measure of competence anyways. I think the number of games that you can win in the regular season without your captain is a better indicator of competence.
and how come you still cant answer my other question? how can a fake superstar lead his team to a championship and win the finals MVP on three separate occasions?
is it perhaps possible that you were wrong about that as well?
3ball
04-14-2020, 04:51 PM
so what you just did is show scoring numbers in the finals like that reveals anything - you didnt show shot attempts because you know it will kill your argument. pippen and kukoc definitely would've scored more if some of jordan's volume shots were sent their way.
and scoring in the finals isnt the best measure of competence anyways. I think the number of games that you can win in the regular season without your captain is a better indicator of competence.
and how come you still cant answer my other question? how can a fake superstar lead his team to a championship and win the finals MVP on three separate occasions?
is it perhaps possible that you were wrong about that as well?
Here's the problem with the shot attempts argument.....
If the Bulls gave more shot attempts to Pippen and Kukoc, the team ORtg would decline and the team would be a less potent team.
MJ was shooting 25 times per game in the playoffs with a 118 ortg.. that's better than any perimeter player ever
So if we gave shots to Pippen at 108 ORtg or Kukoc at 112, it would crater the Bulls' team ORtg - MJ is the goat because he had far more high volume, high efficiency seasons than anyone
Here's the problem with the shot attempts argument.....
If the Bulls gave more shot attempts to Pippen and Kukoc, the team ORtg would decline and the team would be a less potent team.
MJ was shooting 25 times per game with a 118 ortg.. that's better than any perimeter player not named Durant, and Durant has much less volume.
So if we gave shots to Pippen at 108 ORtg or Kukoc at 112, it would crater the Bulls' team ORtg - MJ is the goat because he had far more high volume, high efficiency seasons than anyone
thats exactly my point - they werent shooting the ball as often as those players on the other team so you cant use their scoring numbers to make a point.
you cant say player abc on the blazers is better than player abc on the bulls because they scored more in the finals when they took more shots. it obviously doesnt work like that.
pippen being the GOAT perimeter defender for example isnt reflected in his finals scoring. thats just an easy example.
in any case the bulls roster that you always trash won 55-without MJ.
they were a 50+ win team without MJ playing a single game. I'll be posting that very often.
3ball
04-14-2020, 05:07 PM
thats exactly my point - they werent shooting the ball as often as those players on the other team so you cant use their scoring numbers to make a point.
you cant say player abc on the blazers is better than player abc on the bulls because they scored more in the finals when they took more shots. it obviously doesnt work like that.
pippen being the GOAT perimeter defender for example isnt reflected in his finals scoring. thats just an easy example.
in any case the bulls roster that you always trash won 55-without MJ.
they were a 50+ win team without MJ playing a single game. I'll be posting that very often.
No, that argument beat you
You can't give shots to less efficient players
Otoh, lebron shot a lower efficiency in the 15' Finals then his teammates, so he probably should've let them shoot more
3ball
04-14-2020, 05:10 PM
.
how can a fake superstar lead his team to a championship and win the finals MVP on three separate occasions?
by getting 8 extra chances to win Finals by forming a strong team in a conference that weak teams were routinely winning
Nilocon165
04-14-2020, 05:16 PM
Word on the street is they still won the series and Lebron won FMVP for going GOAT mode in 6 and 7.
What do I know though
by getting 8 extra chances to win Finals by forming a strong team in a conference that weak teams were routinely winning
ow shit :roll:
No, that argument beat you
You can't give shots to less efficient players
Otoh, lebron shot a lower efficiency in the 15' Finals then his teammates, so he probably should've let them shoot more
actually no - you made my point for me.
how could mj's supporting cast score more if they aren't shooting enough to have the opportunity? it just shows how weak your point is.
why would they NEED to score more? why does it matter?
not only that - you tried to criticize mj's supporting cast again acting like scoring is the only factor - you do realize that pippen for example was the better defender rebounder passer etc etc than the guy you were comparing him to on the other team every single time?
Otoh, lebron shot a lower efficiency in the 15' Finals then his teammates, so he probably should've let them shoot more
watching tristan thompson trying to create for himself or delly going ISO against the warriors perimeter defense - they'd be lucky to score 10 points on 30% shooting. :roll:
do you even know ANYTHING about basketball? :oldlol:
3ball
04-14-2020, 05:26 PM
actually no - you made my point for me.
how could mj's supporting cast score more if they aren't shooting enough to have the opportunity? it just shows how weak your point is.
why would they NEED to score more? why does it matter?
not only that - you tried to criticize mj's supporting cast again acting like scoring is the only factor - you do realize that pippen for example was the better defender rebounder passer etc etc than the guy you were comparing him to on the other team every single time?
watching tristan thompson trying to create for himself or delly going ISO against the warriors perimeter defense - they'd be lucky to score 10 points on 30% shooting. :roll:
do you even know ANYTHING about basketball? :oldlol:
Teams routinely win with less rebounds and assists, but never less scoring
Scoring is by far the most important category - if MJ retired in 94' due to fatigue, it was from scoring too much
But more than just scoring - it's efficient, timely scoring - Lebron loses a shit-ton of close games that MJ never did - Jordan likely has a much better playoff record in close games..we already know that old MJ attempted 20% more clutch shots on much better efficiency
by getting 8 extra chances to win Finals by forming a strong team in a conference that weak teams were routinely winning
and there we go - back to the stacked argument. :)
3ball
04-14-2020, 05:30 PM
and there we go - back to the stacked argument. :)
How was he an underdog with 2012 with a sidekick that was better than prime Pippen?
It's called bron-ball son.. a suboptimal skillset and brand that results in weaker teams.. that AAU shit don't fly in the Finals
And weak character... Dwight and AI win the conference with shit cast and this greedy fool wants to stack the deck with a super-team... :rolleyes:
Teams routinely win with less rebounds and assists, but never less scoring
Scoring is by far the most important category - if MJ retired in 94' due to fatigue, it was from scoring too much
But more than just scoring is efficient, timely scoring - Lebron loses a shit-ton of close games that MJ never did - Jordan likely has a much better playoff record in close games..
:roll:
there you go again with the narratives.
lebron's competition was far stiffer to be fair. so jordan may have lost more close games if he played tough competition like john rogers more frequently.
correct 3ball, scoring is definitely the most important category. and to score more you have to shoot more. saying player A is better than player B because he took more shots and scored more in a series (while ignoring every other aspect of the game) - that's called 3ball logic.
they scored enough to win 55-games without mike. that's for sure.
Otoh, lebron shot a lower efficiency in the 15' Finals then his teammates, so he probably should've let them shoot more
This is one of the funniest things I've read on this board in a long time - it's hilarious because you're dead serious. :roll:
reminds me of you saying mo williams was more talented than pippen. varejao over grant. :roll:
How was he an underdog with 2012 with a sidekick that was better than prime Pippen?
It's called bron-ball son.. a suboptimal skillset and brand that results in weaker teams.. that AAU shit don't fly in the Finals
And weak character... Dwight and AI win the conference with shit cast and this greedy fool wants to stack the deck with a super-team... :rolleyes:
I didn't even say he was an underdog.
god bless kyrie. he destroyed you man. you definitely lost everything you had right there - all of your arguments worked until then because they were based on circumstance "he hasnt won with the cavs yet so it must be because of bran's suboptimal style," while ignoring that the cavs had mo williams as the second option.
bronball is the only style proven to defeat 70+ win teams :)
3ball
04-14-2020, 05:48 PM
:roll:
there you go again with the narratives.
lebron's competition was far stiffer to be fair. so jordan may have lost more close games if he played tough competition like john rogers more frequently.
correct 3ball, scoring is definitely the most important category. and to score more you have to shoot more. saying player A is better than player B because he took more shots and scored more in a series (while ignoring every other aspect of the game) - that's called 3ball logic.
they scored enough to win 55-games without mike. that's for sure.
This is one of the funniest things I've read on this board in a long time - it's hilarious because you're dead serious. :roll:
reminds me of you saying mo williams was more talented than pippen. varejao over grant. :roll:
It isn't a narrative - it's a fact - lebron loses a shit-ton of close games that MJ wouldn't - it's cost him at least 2 rings and a Finals appearance (09').
And again, MJ shoots the most because he can achieve a 118 ortg while doing so (better than any offense ever)..
And yes - it would've been better to let Tristan, JR, and Mosgov make some plays and move the ball, rather then the team get massively out-assisted and have no chance
Finally, Varejao is barely behind Grant - basically the same player... But regardless, Grant ranks as approximately MJ's 2nd to 4th best teammate all-time, but he'd be Lebron's 9th or 10th best teammate... aka Zydrunas destroys him
FireDavidKahn
04-14-2020, 05:55 PM
It isn't a narrative - it's a fact - lebron loses a shit-ton of close games that MJ wouldn't - it's cost him at least 2 rings and a Finals appearance (09').
And again, MJ shoots the most because he can achieve a 118 ortg while doing so (better than any offense ever)..
And yes - it would've been better to let Tristan, JR, and Mosgov make some plays and move the ball, rather then the team get massively out-assisted and have no chance
Finally, Varejao is barely behind Grant - basically the same player... But regardless, Grant ranks as approximately MJ's 2nd to 4th best teammate all-time, but he'd be Lebron's 9th or 10th best teammate... aka Zydrunas destroys him
I am quoting this so you can never go back with this statement.
You think it's a great idea to take touches away from LeBron and hand them to Tristan, JR, and Mosgov?:roll:
It isn't a narrative - it's a fact - lebron loses a shit-ton of close games that MJ wouldn't - it's cost him at least 2 rings and a Finals appearance (09').
And again, MJ shoots the most because he can achieve a 118 ortg while doing so (better than any offense ever)..
And yes - it would've been better to let Tristan, JR, and Mosgov make some plays and move the ball, rather then the team get massively out-assisted and have no chance
Finally, Varejao is barely behind Grant - basically the same player... But regardless, Grant ranks as approximately MJ's 2nd to 4th best teammate all-time, but he'd be Lebron's 9th or 10th best teammate... aka Zydrunas destroys him
:roll:
you're hilarious bro. you twist everything. we're not going through the cavs comparisons again. because it shouldnt even be a discussion. you should feel embarrassed comparing the first threepeat and second threepeat championship bulls supporting rosters to the 2009 cavs and the 2004-2010 cavs like you did for years, and are trying to do again.
Im glad you finally admit you'd take pippen over williams. that is a GIGANTIC, HISTORICAL confession because you fought me tooth and nail.
and the reason Im going back and forth with you lately is because I want you to agree with me - undisputed top 10 even on the biggest hater's list. in fact according to your logic and standards lbj is already undisputed 2nd GOAT.
lebron has only cost himself one ring - 2011. and you know what the funniest thing about it all is? he lost because he was passive and was deferring the ball. if he was playing his USUAL balldominant style like he did the next two years - aka the two years he won the ring...
I am quoting this so you can never go back with this statement.
You think it's a great idea to take touches away from LeBron and hand them to Tristan, JR, and Mosgov?:roll:
:roll::roll::roll:
I guarantee you he didnt watch the series. that was possibly the most crippled offense to ever make the finals :oldlol:
he said it would be better to let tristan jr and mosgov make some plays - that's how you guarantee you get swept :roll:
It isn't a narrative - it's a fact - lebron loses a shit-ton of close games that MJ wouldn't - it's cost him at least 2 rings and a Finals appearance (09').
And again, MJ shoots the most because he can achieve a 118 ortg while doing so (better than any offense ever)..
And yes - it would've been better to let Tristan, JR, and Mosgov make some plays and move the ball, rather then the team get massively out-assisted and have no chance
Finally, Varejao is barely behind Grant - basically the same player... But regardless, Grant ranks as approximately MJ's 2nd to 4th best teammate all-time, but he'd be Lebron's 9th or 10th best teammate... aka Zydrunas destroys him
3ball
04-14-2020, 06:44 PM
bulls supporting rosters to the 2009 cavs and the 2004-2010 cavs
Lebron's 05-10' rosters are littered with all-stars (jamison, mo, zydrunas), all-defenders (hughes, varejao), top defenses (07', 09') and decorated coaches (coy brown)
while 85-89' MJ had none of this - an accolade-less cast, aka worse cast than lebron ever had.. Lebron's greater casts explain how he won more games despite less personal stats, aka 28/8/7 won 66 games, while Jordan's 33/8/8 won 47, etc, etc, etc, etc
lebron has only cost himself one ring - 2011.
If Lebron was the goat, he would've:
- 2005... Made playoffs with the East all-star center as a teammate
- 2007... not been locked down in 07' Finals
- 2008... not been locked down in ecsf
- 2009... made the Finals
- 2010... not quit as the favorite
- 2011... won title
- 2012... been favored w/ sidekick that was better than prime Pippen
- 2013... Won title in 5 games by not averaging 16 on 39% thru 3 games
- 2014... 3-peat
- 2015... don't shoot 39% against single-coverage or let man get fmvp
- don't lay egg for 4 games (24 and 6 TO), thus needing 7 gms
- 2017... Flirt with 70 wins with healthy Kyrie/Love and have good odds vs KD in Finals
- 2019... don't butcher LA and need AD to save you (failing w/ Ingram, aka Pippen)
Im glad you finally admit you'd take pippen over williams.
09' Mo was clearly much better than 89' Pippen:
09' Mo Will RS... 18/3/4.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 17.1 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
89' Pippen RS'... 14/6/4.. 52.4 ts.. 102 ORtg.. 14.9 PER.. 0.080 ws/48.. 1.4 bpm.. 2.1 vorp
09' Mo Will ECF...... 18/3/4.. 50.5 ts.. 102 ORtg.. #3 team defense.. lost to #4 SRS (2 all-stars)
89' Pippen 1st Rd... 15/9/4.. 51.0 ts.. 102 ORtg.. #11 team defense.. beat #1 SRS (3 all-stars*)
* plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper
Looks like Lebron had the far better cast but lost to a worse team than MJ defeated in 89'.. :confusedshrug:
So Lebron's 09' loss as the favorite was clearly a black mark because MJ was like 10-0 in series with that kind of help on both sides of the ball
Btw... 09' Mo destroys 19' Khris Middleton too just like Pippen above:
MO WILLIAMS.......... 18/3/5.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ortg.. 17.2 PER.. 0.165 ws.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
KHRIS MIDDLETON... 18/5/3.. 55.5 ts.. 106 ortg.. 16.3 PER.. 0.122 ws.. 0.7 bpm.. 1.6 vorp
19' Giannis had an 09' Cavs-type cast (and was similarly favored in the weak conference)
Lebron is top 10 even for the biggest hater
I have him at #15 behind
MJ, Bird, Wilt, Kareem, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Russell, Magic, KD, Hakeem, Dr. J, Kawhi, Dirk
Lebron's 05-10' rosters are littered with all-stars (jamison, mo, zydrunas), all-defenders (hughes, varejao), top defenses (07', 09') and decorated coaches (coy brown)
while 85-89' MJ had none of this - an accolade-less cast, aka worse cast than lebron ever had.. Lebron's greater casts explain how he won more games despite less personal stats, aka 28/8/7 won 66 games, while Jordan's 33/8/8 won 47, etc, etc, etc, etc
If Lebron was the goat, he would've:
- 2005... Made playoffs with the East all-star center as a teammate
- 2007... not been locked down in 07' Finals
- 2008... not been locked down in ecsf
- 2009... made the Finals
- 2010... not quit as the favorite
- 2011... won title
- 2012... been favored w/ sidekick that was better than prime Pippen
- 2013... Won title in 5 games by not averaging 16 on 39% thru 3 games
- 2014... win title
- 2015... don't shoot 39% against single-coverage or let man get fmvp
- don't lay egg for 4 games (24 and 6 TO), thus needing 7 gms
- 2017... Flirt with 70 wins with healthy Kyrie/Love and have good odds vs KD in Finals
- 2019... don't butcher LA and need AD to save you (failing w/ Ingram, aka Pippen)
09' Mo was clearly much better than 89' Pippen:
09' Mo Will RS... 18/3/4.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 17.1 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
89' Pippen RS'... 14/6/4.. 52.4 ts.. 102 ORtg.. 14.9 PER.. 0.080 ws/48.. 1.4 bpm.. 2.1 vorp
09' Mo Will ECF...... 18/3/4.. 50.5 ts.. 102 ORtg.. #3 team defense.. lost to #4 SRS (2 all-stars)
89' Pippen 1st Rd... 15/9/4.. 51.0 ts.. 102 ORtg.. #11 team defense.. beat #1 SRS (3 all-stars*)
* plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper
Looks like Lebron had the far better cast but lost to a worse team than MJ defeated in 89'.. :confusedshrug:
So Lebron's 09' loss as the favorite was clearly a black mark because MJ was like 10-0 in series with that kind of help on both sides of the ball
Btw... 09' Mo destroys 19' Khris Middleton too just like Pippen above:
MO WILLIAMS.......... 18/3/5.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ortg.. 17.2 PER.. 0.165 ws.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
KHRIS MIDDLETON... 18/5/3.. 55.5 ts.. 106 ortg.. 16.3 PER.. 0.122 ws.. 0.7 bpm.. 1.6 vorp
19' Giannis had an 09' Cavs-type cast (and was similarly favored in the weak conference)
I have him at #15 behind
MJ, Bird, Wilt, Kareem, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Russell, Magic, KD, Hakeem, Dr. J, Kawhi, Dirk
:roll::roll:
pure comedy. this is funnier than anything I've seen SNL put out in the last decade and-a-half. the first sentence alone has me nearly in tears.
"littered with all-stars" then he posts ancient 2010 jamison old Z and mo ****ing williams :roll:
Manny98
04-14-2020, 07:00 PM
doesn't that mean lots of guys would've won in his place?
Many guys would've averaged 25 or 30 and been up 3-0.
That Spurs team was pretty damn good defensively so no,not alot of players are going to average 30 against those Spurs
we already know that you're an irrational hater - at first you said not top-10 because he cant lead a team to a championship (had already done it twice though) and then when he did it (again) you just shifted the goalpost some more "buh buh kyrie"
now you have Dr J ranked above? what? barkley and malone wasnt enough?
If Lebron was the goat, he would've:
- 2005... Made playoffs with the East all-star center as a teammate
- 2007... not been locked down in 07' Finals
- 2008... not been locked down in ecsf
- 2009... made the Finals
- 2010... not quit as the favorite
- 2011... won title
- 2012... been favored w/ sidekick that was better than prime Pippen
- 2013... Won title in 5 games by not averaging 16 on 39% thru 3 games
- 2014... win title
- 2015... don't shoot 39% against single-coverage or let man get fmvp
- don't lay egg for 4 games (24 and 6 TO), thus needing 7 gms
- 2017... Flirt with 70 wins with healthy Kyrie/Love and have good odds vs KD in Finals
- 2019... don't butcher LA and need AD to save you (failing w/ Ingram, aka Pippen)
this is why people make fun of jordan's competition now - because of stans like you who acted like he always beat goliath in the playoffs as a one-man team.
he beat the utah jazz. :oldlol:
3ball
04-14-2020, 07:04 PM
:roll::roll:
pure comedy. this is funnier than anything I've seen SNL put out in the last decade and-a-half. the first sentence alone has me nearly in tears.
"littered with all-stars" then he posts ancient 2010 jamison old Z and mo ****ing williams :roll:
Jamison was acquired mid-season, so let's see what happened:
2010 Jamison pre-Lebron..... 22/9
2010 Jamison post-Lebron... 15/8
Lebron-ball simply reduced Jamison from the all-star caliber he was at.. lebron did the same to Hughes and halted Pippen's development, er, I mean Ingram
So again..
Lebron's 05-10' rosters are littered with all-stars (jamison, mo, zydrunas), all-defenders (hughes, varejao), top defenses (07', 09') and decorated coaches (coy brown)
while 85-89' MJ had none of this - an accolade-less cast, aka worse cast than lebron ever had.. Lebron's greater casts explain how he won more games despite less personal stats, aka 28/8/7 won 66 games, while Jordan's 33/8/8 won 47, etc, etc, etc, etc
09' Mo was clearly much better than 89' Pippen:
09' Mo Will RS... 18/3/4.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 17.1 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
89' Pippen RS'... 14/6/4.. 52.4 ts.. 102 ORtg.. 14.9 PER.. 0.080 ws/48.. 1.4 bpm.. 2.1 vorp
09' Mo Will ECF...... 18/3/4.. 50.5 ts.. 102 ORtg.. #3 team defense.. lost to #4 SRS (2 all-stars)
89' Pippen 1st Rd... 15/9/4.. 51.0 ts.. 102 ORtg.. #11 team defense.. beat #1 SRS (3 all-stars*)
* plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper
Looks like Lebron had the far better cast but lost to a worse team than MJ defeated in 89'.. :confusedshrug:
So Lebron's 09' loss as the favorite was clearly a black mark because MJ was like 10-0 in series with that kind of help on both sides of the ball
Btw... 09' Mo destroys 19' Khris Middleton too just like Pippen above:
MO WILLIAMS.......... 18/3/5.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ortg.. 17.2 PER.. 0.165 ws.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
KHRIS MIDDLETON... 18/5/3.. 55.5 ts.. 106 ortg.. 16.3 PER.. 0.122 ws.. 0.7 bpm.. 1.6 vorp
19' Giannis had an 09' Cavs-type cast (and was similarly favored in the weak conference)
I have him at #15 behind
MJ, Bird, Wilt, Kareem, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Russell, Magic, KD, Hakeem, Dr. J, Kawhi, Dirk
why are you talking about 89 pippen? you argued that mo williams was better than first 3-peat championship bulls pippen. and second 3peat pippen. you said jordan would mold mo williams into a surefire guaranteed championship second option.
so 91-93 pippen and then 96-98 pippen.
you said the 09 loss was a blackmark for the cavs? you really going to go into this argument again? trying to convince us that mo williams and varejao are more talented than pippen and grant?
Jamison was acquired mid-season, so let's see what happened:
2010 Jamison pre-Lebron..... 22/9
2010 Jamison post-Lebron... 15/8
Lebron-ball simply reduced Jamison from the all-star caliber he was at.. lebron did the same to Hughes and halted Pippen's development, er, I mean Ingram
So again..
Lebron's 05-10' rosters are littered with all-stars (jamison, mo, zydrunas), all-defenders (hughes, varejao), top defenses (07', 09') and decorated coaches (coy brown)
while 85-89' MJ had none of this - an accolade-less cast, aka worse cast than lebron ever had.. Lebron's greater casts explain how he won more games despite less personal stats, aka 28/8/7 won 66 games, while Jordan's 33/8/8 won 47, etc, etc, etc, etc
dude you cant convince me. I actually watched all of those games. you're factually wrong. jamison was GARBAGE.
those cavs were GARBAGE. absolutely lacking in talent. that is a fact.
lacking in talent unlike the '94 bulls - that were good enough to win 55 games with mike in the minor leagues. :oldlol:
3ball
04-14-2020, 07:12 PM
why are you talking about 89 pippen? you argued that mo williams was better than first 3-peat championship bulls pippen.
so 91-93 pippen and then 96-98 pippen.
you said the 09 loss was a blackmark for the cavs? you really going to go into this argument again? trying to convince us that mo williams and varejao are more talented than pippen and grant?
No, I only argued Mo over 89' Pippen and that's the only argument I'm making.. So ultimately, 09' lebron had more help on both sides of the ball but lost to a worse team (#4 SRS) then MJ beat in 89' (#1 SRS).
However, Mo's stats from 09' compare to prime Pippen as well, especially 93' Pippen.. but I'm not arguing 09' Mo > prime Pippen (although maybe 93' Pip production-wise)
And the 09' loss is a black mark for Lebron because he was fully expected to win and the Magic weren't considered good.. But Stan Van Gundy later said Lebron's stat accumulation was essentially ineffective and favored over getting the ball out his hands - lebron's lack of doubles is partly why Mo shot less than normal... 09' was our first glimpse that there was something "empty" about lebron's stats..
39 PER and you lose to Dwight?..... lolololololol... Emptiest stats ever... :facepalm:
Jamison was acquired mid-season, so let's see what happened:
2010 Jamison pre-Lebron..... 22/9
2010 Jamison post-Lebron... 15/8
Lebron-ball simply reduced Jamison from the all-star caliber he was at.. lebron did the same to Hughes and halted Pippen's development, er, I mean Ingram
So again..
Lebron's 05-10' rosters are littered with all-stars (jamison, mo, zydrunas), all-defenders (hughes, varejao), top defenses (07', 09') and decorated coaches (coy brown)
while 85-89' MJ had none of this - an accolade-less cast, aka worse cast than lebron ever had.. Lebron's greater casts explain how he won more games despite less personal stats, aka 28/8/7 won 66 games, while Jordan's 33/8/8 won 47, etc, etc, etc, etc
These are literally lies. Stop lying. This is why no one takes you seriously. How the hell do you get 22 PPG from 20.9 PPG and 15 PPG from 15.8 :roll:
Jamison was playing way more minutes on the Wizards and he was the unquestioned first option. Even so, his scoring rate didn't go down that much.
Per 36
Wizards 19.0 PTS on 15.8 shots, 52.8 TS%
Cavs 17.5 PTS on 14.9 shots, 53.0 TS%
Additionally Jamison's FT% inexplicably tanked when he went to the Cavs (50.6% compared to 70.0% on the Wizards) which accounts for some of his decline in scoring as well. I suppose that is somehow LeBron's fault though. All he told, Jamison was scoring a whopping 1.5 PTS per 36 minutes, which is easily explained by him going from first option to co-second option with Mo Wiliams or even third option. Now shut up, you lying troll.
jamison was already known as a defensive liability when he played for the wizards - and that was when he was still young :oldlol:
far cry from playing with the literal GOAT perimeter defender. 2010 cavs could've used scottie in fact. :oldlol:
No, I only argued Mo over 89' Pippen and that's the only argument I'm making.. So ultimately, 09' lebron had more help on both sides of the ball but lost to a worse team (#4 SRS) then MJ beat in 89' (#1 SRS).
However, Mo's stats from 09' compare to prime Pippen as well, especially 93' Pippen.. but I'm not arguing 09' Mo > prime Pippen (although maybe 93' Pip production-wise)
And the 09' loss is a black mark for Lebron because he was fully expected to win and the Magic weren't considered good.. But Stan Van Gundy later said Lebron's stat accumulation was essentially ineffective and favored over getting the ball out his hands - lebron's lack of doubles is partly why Mo shot less than normal... 09' was our first glimpse that there was something "empty" about lebron's stats.. 39 PER and you lose to Dwight?..... lolololololol... Emptiest stats ever
no you didnt you liar. you argued mo williams was as good as every championship version of pippen.
you said mike would've led the talentless cavs to the championship in 2009 and 2010 - which is complete insanity considering they'd get raped by the magic lakers celtics ANY of the teams they ran into if the cavs roster didnt change. :oldlol:
jamison was already known as a defensive liability when he played for the wizards - and that was when he was still young :oldlol:
far cry from playing with the literal GOAT perimeter defender. 2010 cavs could've used scottie in fact. :oldlol:
LeBron was pretty beastly himself on defense in his peak years. Imagine the defensive combo of him and Pippen :eek:
3ball
04-14-2020, 07:17 PM
These are literally lies. Stop lying. This is why no one takes you seriously. How the hell do you get 22 PPG from 20.9 PPG and 15 PPG from 15.8 :roll:
Jamison was playing way more minutes on the Wizards and he was the unquestioned first option. Even so, his scoring rate didn't go down that much.
Per 36
Wizards 19.0 PTS on 15.8 shots, 52.8 TS%
Cavs 17.5 PTS on 14.9 shots, 53.0 TS%
Additionally Jamison's FT% inexplicably tanked when he went to the Cavs (50.6% compared to 70.0% on the Wizards) which accounts for some of his decline in scoring as well. I suppose that is somehow LeBron's fault though. All he told, Jamison was scoring a whopping 1.5 PTS per 36 minutes, which is easily explained by him going from first option to co-second option with Mo Wiliams or even third option. Now shut up, you lying troll.
Yes, at some point, you must blame lebron
Hughes, Ingram, Jamison Ingram - they were all hurt by lebron
That's not even including guys like Rose, Hood, Crowder, or Bosh, who saw cratering of stats as well
Forwards, ball-handlers and non-shooters (aka Pippen) crater next to Bron.. he wins nothing with pip
Jamison was acquired mid-season, so let's see what happened:
2010 Jamison pre-Lebron..... 22/9
2010 Jamison post-Lebron... 15/8
Lebron-ball simply reduced Jamison from the all-star caliber he was at.. lebron did the same to Hughes and halted Pippen's development, er, I mean Ingram
So again..
Lebron's 05-10' rosters are littered with all-stars (jamison, mo, zydrunas), all-defenders (hughes, varejao), top defenses (07', 09') and decorated coaches (coy brown)
while 85-89' MJ had none of this - an accolade-less cast, aka worse cast than lebron ever had.. Lebron's greater casts explain how he won more games despite less personal stats, aka 28/8/7 won 66 games, while Jordan's 33/8/8 won 47, etc, etc, etc, etc
:roll::roll:
you are too much man. WAY too much of a pajama wearing fanboy. ask any wizards fans and they can tell you what they think of 2010 jamison.
Yes, at some point, you must blame lebron
Hughes, Ingram, Jamison Ingram - they were all hurt by lebron
That's not even including guys like Rose, Hood, Crowder, or Bosh, who saw cratering of stats as well
The little bitch didn't even address my point or the fact that he lied. Wow.
Yes, at some point, you must blame lebron
Hughes, Ingram, Jamison Ingram - they were all hurt by lebron
That's not even including guys like Rose, Hood, Crowder, or Bosh, who saw cratering of stats as well
Forwards, ball-handlers and non-shooters (aka Pippen) crater next to Bron.. he wins nothing with pip
this guy :roll:
this guy :roll:
All he does is lie and make stuff up. He's a lying bitch sobbing into his MJ pajamas. Pathetic :oldlol:
3ball
04-14-2020, 07:20 PM
LeBron was pretty beastly himself on defense in his peak years. Imagine the defensive combo of him and Pippen :eek:
Shortest defensive prime ever... Lol
Hey bruh, when's the last time lebron won MVP or got 1st team defense
The so-called goat goes 7 years in his prime without elite defense or MVP play... :facepalm:...#fakegoat
I'm a complete bitch and a pathological liar
:bowdown:
LeBron was pretty beastly himself on defense in his peak years. Imagine the defensive combo of him and Pippen :eek:
according to 3ball's own logic lebron is undisputed top-2 GOAT. he has larry ranked second and lebron surpassed him in all of the criteria that he claims he values (championships as the man, scoring, elevating a team, etc).
and if you use 3ball's logic then lebron is actually better than mike because lebron actually won without any allstars like he claims mike did. its obviously ridiculous because kyrie is a top-tier allstar but he technically wasnt one in 2016 and neither was love - hence the only player to beat a 70-win team, without any allstars.
"mike went 6/6 so he'd win every time"
well lebron is 1/1 against 70 win teams (shitty argument I know. I'm just going full 3ball)
plus he's the only player to beat a 70-win team "without any allstar support."
I dont think that record is going anywhere. :oldlol:
3ball
04-14-2020, 07:26 PM
Cavs chose Jamison over Amar'e - Jamison was considered a monster pick up.. also:
Ingram w/ Bron = garbage
Ingram no Bron = stud
Ditto Jamison and Hughes..
Lebron was gifted 20-point wings and all-defenders but ruined them, while MJ had to build that from nothing
I have the IQ of a demented walrus and MJ was 1-9 without Pippen :(
:roll:
Fireball1
04-14-2020, 07:31 PM
Cavs chose Jamison over Amar'e - Jamison was considered a monster pick up.. also:
Ingram w/ Bron = garbage
Ingram no Bron = stud
Ditto Jamison and Hughes..
Lebron was gifted 20-point wings and all-defenders but ruined them, while MJ had to build that from nothing I wouldn't call Ingram a stud though. Before LeBron joined the Lakers he has been a negative on offense and defense. "Stud" is taking it a little bit too far.
tpols
04-14-2020, 07:33 PM
Antwan Jamison was a siakam like player. Super suave and crafty scorer PF.
Mo Will like a young trey young. There's a reason Cleveland won 66 games.
But alas... he couldnt make due.
Antwan Jamison was a siakam like player. Super suave and crafty scorer PF.
Mo Will like a young trey young. There's a reason Cleveland won 66 games.
But alas... he couldnt make due.
It's Permaban time for ttrolls.
you're flailing bro. you know you're in trouble when you have to resort to arguments like this
Yes, at some point, you must blame lebron
Hughes, Ingram, Jamison Ingram - they were all hurt by lebron
That's not even including guys like Rose, Hood, Crowder, or Bosh, who saw cratering of stats as well
Forwards, ball-handlers and non-shooters (aka Pippen) crater next to Bron.. he wins nothing with pip
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FlimsyInfiniteFinwhale-max-1mb.gif
3ball
04-14-2020, 07:35 PM
I wouldn't call Ingram a stud though. Before LeBron joined the Lakers he has been a negative on offense and defense. "Stud" is taking it a little bit too far.
I see a trend, I don't know about you
Ingram was shooting 39% from three before lebron arrived, and resumed this level upon escaping the colluder...
Everyone was soooo thrilled that Kuzma was kept in the deal... Where are those people now?.. lol
It's funny because the facts are always there.. most of this isn't my "narrative".. it's just observable fact or historical record
tpols
04-14-2020, 07:38 PM
It's Permaban time for ttrolls.
have you ever watched 'twan?
he was sneaky and unorthodox as ****. a UNC hall of famer. (same college Mj went to)
He won the heismith award of college basketball in '98. BEST player in the country. The man was an elite talent.
:biggums:
Antwan Jamison was a siakam like player. Super suave and crafty scorer PF.
Mo Will like a young trey young. There's a reason Cleveland won 66 games.
But alas... he couldnt make due.
this kid just compared mo williams to trae young. :roll:
have you ever watched 'twan?
he was sneaky and unorthodox as ****. a UNC hall of famer. (same college Mj went to)
He won the heismith award of college basketball in '98. The man was an elite talent.
:biggums:
Damn, I bet Kobe won a ring when he had him, Dwight Howard, Steve Nash, Pau Gasol, and MWP all on the same team, right?
Fireball1
04-14-2020, 07:41 PM
I see a trend, I don't know about you
Ingram was shooting 39% from three before lebron arrived, and resumed this level upon escaping the colluder...
Everyone was soooo thrilled that Kuzma was kept in the deal... Where are those people now?.. lol
It's funny because the facts are always there.. most of this isn't my "narrative".. it's just observable fact or historical record Do you think that Ingram will be a future star?
tpols
04-14-2020, 07:41 PM
Damn, I bet Kobe won a ring when he had him, Dwight Howard, Steve Nash, Pau Gasol, and MWP all on the same team, right?
He led that team to the playoffs and they were swept by double digits in every game first round without him.
:biggums:
have you ever watched 'twan?
he was sneaky and unorthodox as ****. a UNC hall of famer. (same college Mj went to)
He won the heismith award of college basketball in '98. The man was an elite talent.
:biggums:
yeah - he was an elite talent in '98. not in 2010.
jamison only played for cleveland one season and he was already past his prime his latter years on the wizards. the cavs won less games after he joined than the year before without him.
arguing that he was held back on the cavs is absolute insanity. they could've used his contribution. :roll:
He led that team to the playoffs and they were swept by double digits in every game first round without him.
:biggums:
1. That isn't impressive considering they were an 8th seed. LeBron has that team top 4 easy (in that era at least. That team wouldn't be nearly as good in today's league as you can't get away with playing two centers now)
2. They weren't in the playoffs when he got injured. They had to go 2-1 in their next 3 to make it.
3. Kobe and the Lakers weren't doing shit against the Spurs that year. They had trouble with mediocre teams all year ffs.
I see a trend, I don't know about you
Ingram was shooting 39% from three before lebron arrived, and resumed this level upon escaping the colluder...
Everyone was soooo thrilled that Kuzma was kept in the deal... Where are those people now?.. lol
It's funny because the facts are always there.. most of this isn't my "narrative".. it's just observable fact or historical record
observable fact? historical record?
dude if you actually had any integrity or dignity you'd just admit that you don't know what you're talking about.
constantly shifting goalposts and making excuses is the easiest thing ever to do. "buh buh kyrie" :oldlol:
observable fact? historical record?
dude if you actually had any integrity or dignity you'd just admit that you don't know what you're talking about.
constantly shifting goalposts and making excuses is the easiest thing ever to do. "buh buh kyrie" :oldlol:
If he had any integrity he would have pointed out Ingram's 3PT volume was really low that year so acting like that 39% signifies he was a good shooter is extremely disingenuous.
If he had any integrity he would have pointed out Ingram's 3PT volume was really low that year so acting like that 39% signifies he was a good shooter is extremely disingenuous.
his dishonesty is actually the reason he always loses every debate - he is too biased. he puts himself in positions that cant be argued and when he gets called out he tries to seriously argue it like its true.
he says MJ won without any allstar support and that mo williams is more talented than pippen - anyone that knows anything about hoops knows that isnt true. in fact its borderline insane. he is dead serious too.
and now he is trying to argue that lebron diminished his teammates in 2015 - he literally said he shouldve passed it to mozgov and thompson more to let them create :roll:
tpols
04-14-2020, 07:54 PM
yeah - he was an elite talent in '98. not in 2010.
jamison only played for cleveland one season and he was already past his prime his latter years on the wizards. the cavs won less games after he joined than the year before without him.
arguing that he was held back on the cavs is absolute insanity. they could've used his contribution. :roll:
He made the all star team in 2008.
Had his highest PPG average of career in 2009.
:biggums:
He made the all star team in 2008.
Had his highest PPG average of career in 2009.
:biggums:
I remember. I was excited for the cavs. that summer the magic also got vince carter and the lakers got artest to replace ariza. raptors drafted demar and signed hedo who had a great playoff run with the magic. it was an exciting summer.
jamison was garbage at that point. he didnt do anything for the cavs. he was still skilled but clearly past his best days also one of the worst defenders at his position at that time that I've ever seen (was never a good defender). KG absolutely annihilated him.
hedo was garbage for the raptors too. I know you didnt ask but I'll share it.
He made the all star team in 2008.
Had his highest PPG average of career in 2009.
:biggums:
Karl Malone, Gary Payton and Steve Nash were all stills studs before they joined Kobe. Not sure you want to go down this path.
Turbo Slayer
04-14-2020, 08:06 PM
Do you think that Ingram will be a future star? Lol Fireball1 got banned.
So I'm guessing Fireball1 was 3ball's alt.
3ball
04-14-2020, 08:10 PM
If he had any integrity he would have pointed out Ingram's 3PT volume was really low that year so acting like that 39% signifies he was a good shooter is extremely disingenuous.
It's funny because you guys are always waiting for that Rodney King, 2011 Finals-level evidence in order to arrive at any conclusions
Anyone with 2 eyes can see that Ingram is plays so much different without Lebron, and the stats tell the story too (see below) - he clearly wasn't getting the shots he preferred alongside bron:
Frequency of different types of jumpshots
2019 Ingram... 16.7% catch-and-shoot... 33.7% pull-ups
2020 Ingram... 30.7% catch-and-shoot... 31.9% pull-ups...
https://stats.nba.com/player/1627742/shots-dash/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
Ingram is clearly a versatile jumpshooter and lebron's "your-turn-my-turn" approach with Ingram hurt his catch-and-shoots.. the better ball movement alongside Lonzo allowed more catch-and-shoot, hence the stat and efficiency increase
Lol Fireball1 got banned.
Eww lol
It's funny because you guys are always waiting for that Rodney King, 2011 Finals-level evidence in order to arrive at any conclusions
Anyone with 2 eyes can see that Ingram is plays so much different without Lebron, and the stats tell the story too (see below) - he clearly wasn't getting the shots he preferred alongside bron:
Frequency of different types of jumpshots
2019 Ingram... 16.7% catch-and-shoot... 33.7% pull-ups
2020 Ingram... 30.7% catch-and-shoot... 31.9% pull-ups...
https://stats.nba.com/player/1627742/shots-dash/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
Ingram is clearly a versatile jumpshooter and lebron's "your-turn-my-turn" approach with Ingram hurt his catch-and-shoots.. the better ball movement alongside Lonzo allowed more catch-and-shoot, hence the stat and efficiency increase
I dont know how you do this - keep backing yourself into corner I mean.
let me ask you a question - do you think lebron's style has benefited or harmed the lakers up to now? do you think it has reduced or increased their odds of winning a championship?
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