Deadspin's case for LeBron James as GOAT

[DoctorP]

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_1600/misprnsazenufnxpidii.jpg


This week, former Pistons center Bill Laimbeer said on ESPN’s First Take of Lebron James: “I firmly believe he’s the best basketball player in the history of the game,” helping reignite the 1,540th media debate of whether James or Michael Jordan is the greatest NBA player of all time (while always excluding Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar from the debate).

Laimbeer is a former Jordan nemesis, so it’s highly convenient to trash his opinion. And while people can shoot-the-messenger all they want, Laimbeer is still right. But that’s a longer discussion. Laimbeer also said this: “Now, if you go by championships, obviously Michael Jordan has more championships. But I think LeBron, in any generation, would be doing what he’s doing right now all these years.”
MJ-over-LeBron supporters couldn’t disagree more.

https://deadspin.com/lebron-james-is-better-than-michael-jordan-regardless-1842903854

[nayte]

1540 ish debate. The article had one thing right

[3ball]

Before people fabricated this fake debate, Kareem wasn't in it

Jordan was considered the goat and very few people ever mentioned Kareem

Kareem only started being mentioned as an effort to prop up Lebron by acting like "well MJ wasn't even the consensus goat anyway. Kareem is in the mix".. but he infact never was

[red1]

scottie pippen lead the bulls to 55-wins.


aka michael jordan's supporting cast was a 50-win team without him.


stacked supporting cast.


the best team michael ever beat was a couple of ringless bums. you words not mine.



No, that really happened - their shots saved his career and prevented 1/9 in Finals

The fact that he's a lucky bounce away from being a 1 ring bum should indicate that he isn't goat

so if lebron is one bounce from being a one ring bum what does that mean?


so you're telling me the best team that mike ever beat was a couple of ringless bums? malone and stockton only played jordan twice - what you're telling me they couldn't win a SINGLE ring the rest of the years that they were in the NBA? and thats the best team that jordan ever beat? you're not gonna say its the old lakers are you?


meanwhile another player has finals MVPs over duncan kd kawhi curry etc all champions so much better competition than the jazz according to you.


three rings equals thanos status according to you. plus more finals MVPs than larry bird - your second GOAT "because he was a winner that could lead a team to championship" - aka exactly what bron did that you said he couldnt do - 3 times :roll:



**** outta here kid.

[3ball]

scottie pippen lead the bulls to 55-wins.


aka michael jordan's supporting cast was a 50-win team without him.


stacked supporting cast.


the best team michael ever beat was a couple of ringless bums. you words not mine.




so if lebron is one bounce from being a one ring bum what does that mean?


so you're telling me the best team that mike ever beat was a couple of ringless bums? malone and stockton only played jordan twice - what you're telling me they couldn't win a SINGLE ring the rest of the years that they were in the NBA? and thats the best team that jordan ever beat? you're not gonna say its the old lakers are you?


meanwhile another player has finals MVPs over duncan kd kawhi curry etc all champions so much better competition than the jazz according to you.


three rings equals thanos status according to you. plus more finals MVPs than larry bird - your second GOAT "because he was a winner that could lead a team to championship" - aka exactly what bron did that you said he couldnt do - 3 times :roll:



**** outta here kid.
Lebron only has 3 rings in 17 years

That's trash kid

If you think that's anywhere near goat ur a dumbass

especially considering he had the easy path possible (landed on teams favored to win title in Year 1 of existence)

The loser can't shoot... He has a history of chokes and mental fragility.. he gets scared of various opponents, while no one is scared of him

Otoh, MJ. built a lottery cast to champion (toughest path) - he proved he could grow a bum team to the goat team... With only 1 other good player, whereas lebron always needed 2 stars to win way less, aka 3/9

[nayte]

Can u guys just give it a rest geez

[red1]

Lebron only has 3 rings in 17 years

That's trash kid

If you think that's anywhere near goat ur a dumbass

especially considering he had the easy path possible (landed on teams favored to win title in Year 1 of existence)

The loser can't shoot... He has a history of chokes and mental fragility.. he gets scared of various opponents, while no one is scared of him

I never even said lebron is the GOAT once. jesus christ you're so insecure you're worse than kd. :oldlol:


thats all you and your campaign. Im not kidding I actually love mj I'm 30 now but Im a 90's space jam era kid. I only talk shit here with you because I see your soft fleshy weak spot.


I won all of my campaigns. I'm undefeated against you, 50-0 like mayweather. you were wrong about everything. and I was right. I'll claim my dubs, no warriors. :pimp: :oldlol:




and you're wrong here again. if you dont think spurs fans or warriors fans feared the heat and the cavs then I dont know what to tell you. game 7's have tended to go my boy's way. :oldlol:




elimination game james and the 3ball slayers

https://clesportstalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Screen-Shot-2020-04-02-at-7.39.38-PM.png
https://media.giphy.com/media/p0RDMJGgMXF96/200.gif

[red1]

Can u guys just give it a rest geez

we're on the home stretch.


we're almost done, 3ball's knee is almost bent just the way it needs to be. we're very close now.


I've gotten 3ball to the point where he has to resort to "hurr durr 3 rings is only for losers" meanwhile he has bird second of all-time - bird has less finals MVPs... and... drumroll.... 3 rings :roll:

[nayte]

I have seen him bend the knee a bit but don't think he will go that far.lol

[red1]

I have seen him bend the knee a bit but don't think he will go that far.lol
:oldlol:

home stretch baby.


first he said not top 20 - said these guys would rank higher all-time: barkley, KG, dirk, karl malone (lmao!), dr. j, and some others


then he said not top 15


now he's clinging to "he's top-11 but no higher"


I'm going to claim my final victory when bitchboy has no choice but to acknowledge top-10 even on a wild haters list.


realistically it was always going to be the 2nd best of all-time regardless, unless something insane happens career-wise. because mj really did have the perfect career.


and if you're doing an all-time nba draft it would go something like 1. mj 2. lebron 3. shaq - so that's even more proof for my all-time ranking.

[Rysio]

He has the stats but his career is far from goat.

[nayte]

Fair enough I won't complain anymore I think your dreaming tho if u think he will do that.

[3ball]

we're on the home stretch.


we're almost done, 3ball's knee is almost bent just the way it needs to be. we're very close now.


I've gotten 3ball to the point where he has to resort to "hurr durr 3 rings is only for losers" meanwhile he has bird second of all-time - bird has less finals MVPs... and... drumroll.... 3 rings :roll:
Bird is bigger than lebron and stronger inside rebounding and on the post... And he was a far better shooter and skilled jumpshooter.. And he added 30 wins to a team in his rookie year..

Better skills + superior winning frequency + superior team ceiling (Finals record) + better comp

^^^^ that's enough to = better player

[red1]

Bird is bigger than lebron and stronger inside rebounding and on the post... And he was a far better shooter and skilled jumpshooter.. And he added 30 wins to a team in his rookie year..

Better skills + superior winning frequency + superior team ceiling (Finals record) + better comp

^^^^ that's enough to = better player

cool. thats not the worst thing that you've ever posted even though like usual I disagree with most of it.


wrong. you just made the worst argument. the only thing that you said that is accurate is praising birds skills and mentioning he was a much better shooter.


bird is not bigger than lebron. lebron is bigger. lebron is more dominant than bird. lebron has been a better player in the regular season playoffs and finals. better accolades better peak better player.



already the 2nd GOAT.

[nayte]

:roll::roll::roll:

[red1]

:roll::roll::roll:

what'd you think this is? :oldlol:





I already told you. home stretch.

[nayte]

Yah I'm sorry .

[3ball]

cool. thats not the worst thing that you've ever posted even though like usual I disagree with most of it.


wrong. you just made the worst argument. the only thing that you said that is accurate is praising birds skills and mentioning he was a much better shooter.


bird is not bigger than lebron. lebron is bigger. lebron is more dominant than bird. lebron has been a better player in the regular season playoffs and finals. better accolades better peak better player.



already the 2nd GOAT.
Bird is bigger than lebron... He's 6'9", so that's an inch taller.. He's also a better rebounders and post player

So Bird was a better inside player - taller, better rebounder and better post player

better inside player + better outside player/shooter = better player

[nayte]

Double sorry red.lol

[red1]

Bird is bigger than lebron... He's 6'9", so that's an inch taller.. He's also a better rebounders and post player

So Bird was a better inside player - taller, better rebounder and better post player, aka better inside player, while also being better outside player/shooter = better player
better shooter yup. absolutely. bigger and better inside player - nope. absolutely not. :oldlol:


I dont even know if larry is taller. I'd love to see a series it would definitely be great to watch. I'd say it's clear though lebron also has the durability edge now so the better prime peak career everything.

[Da_Realist]

and if you're doing an all-time nba draft it would go something like 1. mj 2. lebron 3. shaq - so that's even more proof for my all-time ranking.

Hell no. Not if they're smart. I'd rather face a prime LeBron than a prime MJ, prime Bird, prime Magic, prime Olajuwon, prime Duncan, prime Shaq, not sure about Kobe yet but he's in the conversation and if Kahwi keeps going... And that's only the guys I've seen play in their prime which leaves off Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Oscar, West, etc.

I don't get into the stats and career achievements. If you judge by that then sure LeBron's pushing those numbers but you said all time NBA draft. I want a guy that is unstoppable that I can build an all time great team around. All the guys I mentioned have done that.

[red1]

Hell no. Not if they're smart. I'd rather face a prime LeBron than a prime MJ, prime Bird, prime Magic, prime Olajuwon, prime Duncan, prime Shaq, not sure about Kobe yet but he's in the conversation and if Kahwi keeps going... And that's only the guys I've seen play in their prime which leaves off Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Oscar, West, etc.

I don't get into the stats and career achievements. If you judge by that then sure LeBron's pushing those numbers but you said all time NBA draft. I want a guy that is unstoppable that I can build an all time great team around. All the guys I mentioned have done that.

thats cool bro.


I'd probably be a better GM than you.


1. mj
2. lebron
3. shaq


that's what I want.


that's my top 3, set in stone pound 4 pound.


obviously you'll need more pieces. mo williams won't cut it.

[3ball]

better shooter yup. absolutely. bigger and better inside player - nope. absolutely not. :oldlol:


I dont even know if larry is taller. I'd love to see a series it would definitely be great to watch. I'd say it's clear though lebron also has the durability edge now so the better prime peak career everything.
Bird is a better post player, rebounder and he's taller

What's Bron's argument for being a better inside player - his at-rim percentage is mostly from driving the ball on an open paint - he gets stuffed a lot when there are a lot of bodies in there, he doesn't bang on the glass like Bird, and he's an inferior post player

Btw the thing that makes Bird #2 is that he's the goat passer (goat passes without needing to dribble a lot to get dimes)

[nayte]

thats cool bro.


I'd probably be a better GM than you.


1. mj
2. lebron
3. shaq


that's what I want.


that's my top 3, set in stone pound 4 pound.


obviously you'll need more pieces. mo williams won't cut it.

Where do u put Duncan?

[tpols]

this thread's gonna give 3ball another year of motivation to chastise lbj :roll:

[nayte]

I rate him higher then most it would seem

[3ball]

. mo williams won't cut it.



He should against Rashard Lewis

[red1]

He should against Rashard Lewis

not if you're going 1-9 without pippen.

[tpols]

better shooter yup. absolutely. bigger and better inside player - nope. absolutely not. :oldlol:


I dont even know if larry is taller. I'd love to see a series it would definitely be great to watch. I'd say it's clear though lebron also has the durability edge now so the better prime peak career everything.

bird absolutely was better inside dude... he was tough as nails boxing out and boarding.

Lebron doesnt battle for offensive rebounds and got way less of them. Plus he pulls shit like this.

https://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1632727/leflop.gif

[red1]

Bird is a better post player, rebounder and he's taller

What's Bron's argument for being a better inside player - his at-rim percentage is mostly from driving the ball on an open paint - he gets stuffed a lot when there are a lot of bodies in there, he doesn't bang on the glass like Bird, and he's an inferior post player

Btw the thing that makes Bird #2 is that he's the goat passer (goat passes without needing to dribble a lot to get dimes)

wrong wrong wrong.


you cant just gloss over the huge advantage in athleticism and durability.

larry is a much better shooter. lebron is the GOAT fastbreak player and finisher. lebron is the GOAT at abusing mismatches in the halfcourt and can abuse the pick and roll. much better ISO player than bird as well. I'll say they are equal as passers. lebron is the better defender due to athleticism.

better regular season player

better player in the playoffs

better player in the finals

[ArbitraryWater]

Can u guys just give it a rest geez

Get lost, homer

[red1]

Where do u put Duncan?

top 10 same tier as kobe magic and bird

[red1]

bird absolutely was better inside dude... he was tough as nails boxing out and boarding.

Lebron doesnt battle for offensive rebounds and got way less of them. Plus he pulls shit like this.

https://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1632727/leflop.gif

hell no. you never know what you're talking about.


lebron is better inside than bird.

[Wally450]

Before people fabricated this fake debate, Kareem wasn't in it

Jordan was considered the goat and very few people ever mentioned Kareem

Kareem only started being mentioned as an effort to prop up Lebron by acting like "well MJ wasn't even the consensus goat anyway. Kareem is in the mix".. but he infact never was

So you admit there's a case for LeBron?

After creating thread after thread bashing LeBron, deep down you know that LeBron is the closest threat to MJ.

[Rysio]

thats cool bro.


I'd probably be a better GM than you.


1. mj
2. lebron
3. shaq


that's what I want.


that's my top 3, set in stone pound 4 pound.


obviously you'll need more pieces. mo williams won't cut it.

Lol at LeBron and Shaq

LeBron hasn't won chit without superteams and what has Shaq won without a GOAT gaurd?

[red1]

Lol at LeBron and Shaq

LeBron hasn't won chit without superteams and what has Shaq won without a GOAT gaurd?

quiet kobe stan. shaq is the MDE.

[tpols]

hell no. you never know what you're talking about.


lebron is better inside than bird.

how so?

Bird is clearly the better rebounder and post player in the paint.

Double the offensive rebounding rate (which are by far the hardest boards to get), and obviously far more affluent in the post.

If you cant concede that you've exposed yourself. post play is one of lebrons bigger weaknesses and one of larry's bigger strengths.

[red1]

how so?

Bird is clearly the better rebounder and post player in the paint.

Double the offensive rebounding rate (which are by far the hardest boards to get), and obviously far more affluent in the post. If you cant concede that you've exposed yourself.

rebounding I'd say is a wash. bird definitely put his body on the line moreso than lebron. definitely fought harder for boards. lebron is still more athletic.


inside play also includes finishing. who is better around the rim all-time than lebron?

[Turbo Slayer]

Larry is not better in 2 point range than LeBron

Larry (.509)

LeBron (.550)

[tpols]

if we were to measure their time spent in the paint, what do you think it would look like red?

Lebron spends most of his time far outside the paint with a live dribble, he only finishes plays in the paint, he doesnt spend much time in it doing battle.

Larry Bird otoh, lived around the paint catching it in the post and chasing offensive rebounds. The game back then was also much more "inside" everybody was crammed in.

[red1]

Larry is not better in 2 point range than LeBron

Larry (.509)

LeBron (.550)
you're too young you haven't seen the games.


I watched them both play. larry on replay.


the durability is now the decisive deciding factor.

[red1]

if we were to measure their time spent in the paint, what do you think it would look like red?

Lebron spends most of his time far outside the paint with a live dribble, he only finishes plays in the paint, he doesnt spend much time in it doing battle.

Larry Bird otoh, lived around the paint catching it in the post and chasing offensive rebounds. The game back then was also much more "inside" everybody was crammed in.

thats great. larry is top-10 all-time. if he played in this era he'd compete with steph and klay for 3-point shooting percentage.


lebron is better. its very slight but it's there. you can put lebron on those celtic teams with mchale and parish and he'd win multiple rings.

[Rysio]

quiet kobe stan. shaq is the MDE.

All that dominance but hasn't won chit without elite guard.

[Turbo Slayer]

LeBron also has better offensive impact and equal defensive impact and overall impact compared to Larry Bird. Any rational person would pick LeBron over Bird in a draft....

LeBron also had better VORP....

LeBron also had a better WS/48.... Better WS....

LeBron also had a better TS% than Bird

LeBron also had better eFG% than Bird

LeBron also did this on more volume and efficiency than Bird...

The only knock on LeBron is 3pt and FT... Thats it.... :oldlol:

[red1]

if we were to measure their time spent in the paint, what do you think it would look like red?

Lebron spends most of his time far outside the paint with a live dribble, he only finishes plays in the paint, he doesnt spend much time in it doing battle.


Larry Bird otoh, lived around the paint catching it in the post and chasing offensive rebounds. The game back then was also much more "inside" everybody was crammed in.


I'm not going to pull up or use any stats to make my case but if Im sure if you look at the numbers for lebron he probably leads league history for completed drives dunks layups etc.


one man fastbreak and can abuse the pick and roll in the halfcourt to get explosion for drives to the rim. dont need that mj first step when you can stiffarm. he'd be elbowing players from that era in the head on every drive.

[tpols]

LeBron also has better offensive impact and equal defensive impact and overall impact compared to Larry Bird. Any rational person would pick LeBron over Bird in a draft....

LeBron also had better VORP....

LeBron also had a better WS/48.... Better WS....

LeBron also had a better TS% than Bird

LeBron also had better eFG% than Bird

LeBron also did this on more volume and efficiency than Bird...

The only knock on LeBron is 3pt and FT... Thats it.... :oldlol:


Lebron's Heat in 2011 and 2012 when wade was still prime:

26th team assist rank
21st team assist rank
~20 assist per game average

a peak Larry Bird team would never have assist ranks that bad ^^^ ...because he didnt play your turn my turn iso ball.

In fact his best teams often averaged 30 apg, and 2nd rank behind only magic's lakers.

Bird raises the cielings on his teams far more than Lebron because he promotes much better TEAMWORK.

[Turbo Slayer]

In the Playoffs, Larry Bird drop offs in the Playoffs more than LeBron...

Suddenly Bird is a worst 3 point shooter than LeBron

Bird (32%)

LeBron (33%)

LeBron is also better inside the 3 point line...

LeBron (54%)

Bird (49%)

Impact:

LeBron has 3 10+ BPM playoffs runs while Bird only has 1 10+ BPM playoff runs...

LeBron has better offensive impact, defensive impact, and overall impact than Larry Bird...

LeBron has better WS/48, WS.

LeBron has a better TS% also... :oldlol:

[Turbo Slayer]

Lebron's Heat in 2011 and 2012 when wade was still prime:

26th team assist rank
21st team assist rank
~20 assist per game average

a peak Larry Bird team would never have assist ranks that bad ^^^ ...because he didnt play your turn my turn iso ball.

In fact his best teams often averaged 30 apg, and 2nd rank behind only magic's lakers.

Bird raises the cielings on his teams far more than Lebron because he promotes much better TEAMWORK. At RealGM we would have laughed at you...

Then explain why LeBron ball rewarded LeBron with 9 Finals and a chance to compete for titles while the Larry Bird system only went to 5 Finals despite averaging worst team assists...

LeBron almost made twice the # of Finals that Larry Bird have been in.. Thats insane!

The offensive styles doesnt matter in this regard...

You act like assists is a knock on LeBron... Newsflash: it doesn´t... :roll:

[tpols]

he made 9 finals because he played in one of the worst conferences ever with dwayne wade, chris bosh, ray allen, kyrie irving, kevin love etc.

while Larry had to see the GOAT sixers, and pistons year after year in his. not derozan, millsack, rose, hibbert, etc.

jesus. :facepalm

[Turbo Slayer]

he made 9 finals because he played in one of the worst conferences ever with dwayne wade, chris bosh, ray allen, kyrie irving, kevin love etc.

while Larry had to see the GOAT sixers, and pistons year after year in his. not derozan, millsack, rose, hibbert, etc.

jesus. :facepalm Theres no doubt that LeBron played in a worst conference.I concede that point (mostly).what gives?

You just act like ball domination is a knock on LeBron when he won 3 titles and went to 9 Finals...

Dont ever post that BS again...

[tpols]

it is a knock compared to Bird.

you posted a lot of individual metrics, i gave you a lesson on intangibles and how styles impact teamwork.

Bird made a GOAT team and dynasty with mchale. Lebron couldnt do that with dwayne wade and chris bosh.

The team assist ranks illustrate why this is... Bird promotes ball movement and teamwork much more than Lebron does.

[Turbo Slayer]

it is a knock compared to Bird.

you posted a lot of individual metrics, i gave you a lesson on intangibles and how styles impact teamwork.

Bird made a GOAT team and dynasty with mchale. Lebron couldnt do that with dwayne wade and chris bosh.

The team assist ranks illustrate why this is... Bird promotes ball movement and teamwork much more than Lebron does.


Bird promotes ball movement and teamwork much more than Lebron does. Despite LeBron-led teams having low team assists 2 of LeBron teams ranked 12th alltime and 14th alltime in relative offensive rating...

The Celtics best relative offensive rating was in 1988 when they were ranked 20th alltime despite having more team assists like you say....

https://www.backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Healthy-Offense-Relative-ORtg.png

Again the idea that ball domination hurts teamwork is just false...

Educate yourself please....

[Turbo Slayer]

LeBron is a way better individual player than Bird. No denying that...

[deathawaitu]

scottie pippen lead the bulls to 55-wins.


aka michael jordan's supporting cast was a 50-win team without him.


stacked supporting cast.



**** outta here kid.

So basically what you are trying to say is.. The bulls' player all improved and knew what it took to win after learning from Jordan.

So leaving after Jordan left, the bulls team continue to win because of the great teaching of Jordan :bowdown:

Thanks for letting us know how great Jordan's legacy was even after he retired.

On the other hand, you have your boy Lebron, who poison every franchise after he leaves and taught nothing to any players

Lebron led the Lakers to 35 wins,

Aka AD's supporting cast this year. AD basically carried and taught Lebron what it takes to win in the West

Go back flipping burgers kid

[Turbo Slayer]

So basically what you are trying to say is.. The bulls' player all improved and knew what it took to win after learning from Jordan.

So leaving after Jordan left, the bulls team continue to win because of the great teaching of Jordan :bowdown:

Thanks for letting us know how great Jordan's legacy was even after he retired.

On the other hand, you have your boy Lebron, who poison every franchise after he leaves and taught nothing to any players

Lebron led the Lakers to 35 wins,

Aka AD's supporting cast this year. AD basically carried and taught Lebron what it takes to win in the West

Go back flipping burgers kid You are ignoring context my friend...

The 2019 Lakers were in playoff contention before LeBron got injured in December...

AD "carried" LeBron? No. If I was using your flawed logic then I could say that Shaq carried Kobe too in the 2000 NBA Finals... Shaq averaged around 40 points while Kobe averaged around 16 points...

My point is that these teams dont win without AD or LeBron/Kobe or Shaq...

[nayte]

top 10 same tier as kobe magic and bird

Fair enough . I put him a bit higher but all Good

[nayte]

Get lost, homer

Go back to talking about porn stars effwit

[deathawaitu]

You are ignoring context my friend...

The 2019 Lakers were in playoff contention before LeBron got injured in December...

AD "carried" LeBron? No. If I was using your flawed logic then I could say that Shaq carried Kobe too in the 2000 NBA Finals... Shaq averaged around 40 points while Kobe averaged around 16 points...

My point is that these teams dont win without AD or LeBron/Kobe or Shaq...

On pace doesn't really mean much does it? If that was the cause Clipper were 1st in the West at that time too

We live in a world where result matters.

Everyone has to deal with injuries here and there. Most injuries we don't even hear it from the players.

Lebron is the only player who has to announce to the world every single small discomfort he has.

I agree teams need a Kobe/Shaq , Lebron/Wade, Steph/Klay with a decent supporting cast to win.

What I am arguing is people stating Lebron carried a team of scrubs which is a laughable opinion.

Since everyone knew those Cavs teams were perfectly built around Lebron's strength.

[Da_Realist]

on pace doesn't really mean much does it? If that was the cause clipper were 1st in the west at that time too

we live in a world where result matters.

Everyone has to deal with injuries here and there. Most injuries we don't even hear it from the players.

Lebron is the only player who has to announce to the world every single small discomfort he has.

I agree teams need a kobe/shaq , lebron/wade, steph/klay with a decent supporting cast to win.

What i am arguing is people stating lebron carried a team of scrubs which is a laughable opinion.

Since everyone knew those cavs teams were perfectly built around lebron's strength.

Truth

[Turbo Slayer]

On pace doesn't really mean much does it? If that was the cause Clipper were 1st in the West at that time too

We live in a world where result matters.

Everyone has to deal with injuries here and there. Most injuries we don't even hear it from the players.

Lebron is the only player who has to announce to the world every single small discomfort he has.

I agree teams need a Kobe/Shaq , Lebron/Wade, Steph/Klay with a decent supporting cast to win.

What I am arguing is people stating Lebron carried a team of scrubs which is a laughable opinion.

Since everyone knew those Cavs teams were perfectly built around Lebron's strength.


Lebron carried a team of scrubs I only hear that statement from dumbass LeBron stans... Dont worry while I am a bit of a LeBron stan myself Im actually rational and willing to hear the other posters' opinions unlike FromDowntown, FireDavidKahn, etc...

Also as an added bonus, I am also a RealGM poster...

Prime LeBron joined Prime Wade and Prime Bosh so that throws their dumb ass statements that LeBron "carried scrubs" which is inherently false...


everyone knew those Cavs teams were perfectly built around Lebron's strength. Yep. They were catered to LeBron's needs offensively... The problem I had with those earlier Cavs team was that they were limited offensively to relying on LeBron to do most of the work...

Like Nash did, LeBron was supercharging dependent talent...finishers who benefited from shots served on a daily basis so theres no surprise their teams didnt work well in the Playoffs...

What's surprising to me no team dropped off heavily than the 2011 Cavs after LeBron went to Miami for a better situation to boost his legacy...

https://www.backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Effects-of-superstars-changing-teams.png

[SamuraiSWISH]

The whole article is excuse making to push a narrative :oldlol:

[colts19]

thats great. larry is top-10 all-time. if he played in this era he'd compete with steph and klay for 3-point shooting percentage.


lebron is better. its very slight but it's there. you can put lebron on those celtic teams with mchale and parish and he'd win multiple rings.


I would disagree with the bolded part. I don't think Lebron would work well with Parish and Mchale taking up so much space in the paint. He has always played better with shooter to open up the paint for him. JMHO.

[86Celtics]

rebounding I'd say is a wash. bird definitely put his body on the line moreso than lebron. definitely fought harder for boards. lebron is still more athletic.


inside play also includes finishing. who is better around the rim all-time than lebron?

I see this argument made all the time and it's superficial and devoid of context. I mean sure James has all time great stats finishing at the rim. But against whom? Dwight Howard and Roy Hibbert in wide open paints?

Bird was facing Moses Malone and Jabbar and Jordan competed in an era with some of the best bigs in NBA's history. There's just no comparison to be made. And that doesn't apply just to James but for every player from this era.

[red1]

I see this argument made all the time and it's superficial and devoid of context. I mean sure James has all time great stats finishing at the rim. But against whom? Dwight Howard and Roy Hibbert in wide open paints?

Bird was facing Moses Malone and Jabbar and Jordan competed in an era with some of the best bigs in NBA's history. There's just no comparison to be made. And that doesn't apply just to James but for every player from this era.

when I say finishing ability I just mean the ability to score around the rim finishing plays whether its from your own drive or a pass from from a teammate.


thats universal and would apply in every era. I'm sure the stats would go up if he was allowed to be physical which would definitely happen in previous eras with better bigmen that are actually allowed to defend. Im just saying that would play into his advantage. physical basketball I mean.

[DoctorP]

Go back to talking about porn stars effwit

:lol

Anyone that saw Jordan regularly and watches LeBron know that Jordans game is a step above. Period.

Wzards Jordan had more skills than this years LeBron. But LeBron has Jordan beat on the 3 point shot.

[sdot_thadon]

Before people fabricated this fake debate, Kareem wasn't in it

Jordan was considered the goat and very few people ever mentioned Kareem

Kareem only started being mentioned as an effort to prop up Lebron by acting like "well MJ wasn't even the consensus goat anyway. Kareem is in the mix".. but he infact never was

FALSE. Before Mj had attained that status it was Pretty much Wilt, with mention of Magic, Bird, and Kareem in my experience(his case was much more muted though during MJ's career). Russell was even more rare than Jabbar for whatever reason. They both recieved a huge boost when ring counting became the lazy way to rank guys, which honestly was a narritve used to distance Mj and Magic from each other in these debates and leave Bird far enough behind.....Wilt as a result dropped lower and lower by the year to where now many don't even know where to rank him.


The whole article is excuse making to push a narrative :oldlol:
The irony in this is amazing. However I can't blame you as your focus is often more directed at the finer parts of MJ's anatomy and in turn you'll often miss the big picture....

MJ's entire career was just as narrative driven as any athlete, he just had the privilege of his fans for the most part having no clue what a narrative was back then. But with that said a stan level of fandom will blind anyone apparently. Mj fans have driven the bus on the goat debate for a few decades now and in that time we've created narratives suited to distance him from any perceived threat. We attacked Kobe relentlessly once he elevated himself to a level that made him fit to compare to Mj.

"He was a sidekick " Done.
Magic "less rings, and he played with Kareem" done.
Bird "not enough rings or longevity plus he didn't play defesne" done.
Kareem "had Magic" done.
Wilt "was a loser" done.
Russell " played milk men" done.
Shaq " didn't work hard enough" done. etc etc.

Anytime a worthy challenger appears there were excuses made for not only MJ's failings but his successes as well.
"he made Pippen"
"he was a one man team"
"he didnt beat great teams because he didn't allow them to become great"
"he was rusty"
"they fouled him hard"
"oh, year x didn't count..."

and on

and on

and on

And none of that is suggesting narratives haven't been at work for other guys, just saying it's ridiculous to act as if Mj didn't benefit from them as much as anyone ever did.

[StrongLurk]

Mj is the GOAT.

The most disappointing thing about Lebron is that he actually could have equaled MJ as true GOAT. Lebron had the talent, natural ability and different elements of ability way early on that MJ didn't really have...but he just couldn't put it all together to climb the mountain high enough to CONSISTENTLY reach MJ's level. 99.99% of basketball players don't even have the POTENTIAL to reach MJ's level. You have to have freakish basketball gifts to even have a chance.