ESPN makes the case for MJ as the greatest jumpshooter of all time

[3ball]

Video speaks for itself:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uj1Hw4xgC_Q


Responses are preferred from posters that watched it all the way through

[Mamba4Life]

Didn’t he have the worst 3 point competition performance ever?

[RRR3]

You can’t be the best jump shooter of all time when you can’t shoot 3s consistently.


Stop making threads.

[Da_Realist]

DAMN :applause:

[3ball]

You can’t be the best jump shooter of all time when you can’t shoot 3s consistently.





^^^ Except he did that

He won championships while shooting at today's 3-point standard:



Jordan 1993 Playoffs... 38.9% on 3.8 attempts
Jordan 1993 Finals....... 40.0% on 4.2 attempts
Jordan 1992 Finals....... 42.9% on 4.7 attempts

Kawhi ECSF vs Sixers... 33.3% on 6.4 attempts
Kawhi ECF.. vs. Bucks... 34.4% on 5.3 attempts

Jordan 85-93' Playoffs... 35.2% on 2.1 attempts
L. Bird. 80-87' Playoffs... 34.9% on 1.3 attempts


Sorry, but the stats above + goat mid-range ability and shooting form + goat competitiveness = elite 3-point shooter today in all likelihood, maybe goat-level

Btw he shot threes like that just naturally, without practicing - i.e. he knew he would need goat scoring to win in 92' and 93', so naturally a higher level of threes crept into his game

[Indian guy]

MJ being the GOAT mid-range jump shooter (along with Dirk) has been a commonly held opinion for a while now. We have statistics to back it up too. This is nothing new.

[tpols]

Dirk, Bird, and Curry >

[3ball]

MJ being the GOAT mid-range jump shooter (along with Dirk) has been a commonly held opinion for a while now. We have statistics to back it up too. This is nothing new.
When Giannis shoots a jumper, he looks like a beginner stepping up to the line the way he does.

Now compare that to the goat jumpshooting skill from the OP video... Giannis is a white belt jumpshooter and MJ is a black belt

Yet people think Giannis could one day shoot well from three, but not MJ?.. Even though MJ already shot at a modern level while winning the 93 title?

Makes no sense.

And Zion is supposed to develop one day too yet he hasn't taken a pull-up jumper off a hard drive in his life

[3ball]

Dirk, Bird, and Curry >

^^^ that's a goat bar worthy of the goat

But which one of those guys can dunk from the ft line

and Curry is nowhere near MJ from mid-range btw (mj has literally 8-10 times the volume on better efficiency - Curry can't take mid-range cause it's heavily-contested.. same reason he has no legendary game winners and often struggles to take over in the clutch - he can't take contested... 80% of his threes are taken with 4+ feet of room, aka "open" according to NBA.com... it's 90% for rest of league)

[SamuraiSWISH]

Best mid ranger jump shooter ever. That playoff double nickel on Webber and Calbert Cheney was a thing of beauty. Almost exclusively on jump shots too. Thing of beauty.

[tpols]

^^^ that's a goat bar worthy of the goat

But which one of those guys can dunk from the ft line

and Curry is nowhere near MJ from mid-range btw (mj has literally 8-10 times the volume on better efficiency - Curry can't take mid-range cause it's heavily-contested.. same reason he has no legendary game winners and often struggles to take over in the clutch - he can't take contested... 80% of his threes are taken with 4+ feet of room, aka "open" according to NBA.com... it's 90% for rest of league)

Curry averaged 30 ppg 50/40/90. (gold standard for shooters) He's the only person to ever do that.

He is the GOAT shooter.

Klay and Reggie are better than MJ at shooting too and had midrange games.

[3ball]

Best mid ranger jump shooter ever. That playoff double nickel on Webber and Calbert Cheney was a thing of beauty. Almost exclusively on jump shots too. Thing of beauty.
And I'm sure you've seen his 3-point compilation video - it's literally 12 straight minutes of bailouts (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzbrBUFB4Y&t=02m12s), including tons of 27+ footers - I would love to see MJ's 3-point percentage when the shot clock is under 4 seconds.. it probably mirrors his regular percentage because I believe most of the threes MJ ever took were bailouts... The exceptions are any year he took over 1.5 attempts (more than minimal volume), where he always shot great (90', 93'.... 95', 96', 97')

I doubt lebron has 12 straight minutes of bailout threes

[Manny98]

All the video proved was that he was the best mid range shooter of his era which we already know

Best mid range shooter of all time tho? KD and Kobe both have strong arguments over MJ

And we all know Curry is the best shooter of all time

[Turbo Slayer]

Curry averaged 30 ppg 50/40/90. (gold standard for shooters) He's the only person to ever do that.

He is the GOAT shooter.

Klay and Reggie are better than MJ at shooting too and had midrange games.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTA5aBmmYJg the GOAT shooter

[Manny98]

^^^ that's a goat bar worthy of the goat

But which one of those guys can dunk from the ft line

and Curry is nowhere near MJ from mid-range btw (mj has literally 8-10 times the volume on better efficiency - Curry can't take mid-range cause it's heavily-contested.. same reason he has no legendary game winners and often struggles to take over in the clutch - he can't take contested... 80% of his threes are taken with 4+ feet of room, aka "open" according to NBA.com... it's 90% for rest of league)

df does dunking from the free throw line have to do with who's the better shooter :oldlol:

And MJ isn't even in the same dimension as Curry when it comes to long distance shooting.

Even free throw shooting Curry is like 10% better than MJ

[SamuraiSWISH]

And I'm sure you've seen his 3-point compilation video - it's literally 12 straight minutes of bailouts (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzbrBUFB4Y&t=02m12s), including tons of 27+ footers - I would love to see MJ's 3-point percentage when the shot clock is under 4 seconds.. it probably mirrors his regular percentage because I believe most of the threes MJ ever took were bailouts... The exceptions are any year he took over 1.5 attempts (more than minimal volume), where he always shot great (90', 93'.... 95', 96', 97')

I doubt lebron has 12 straight minutes of bailout threes

I’m pretty sure I’ve seen it. But can you post the link just to make sure?

I remember watching a Jordan three point compilation a few years ago that featured super long range shots. Like not even typical three pointers but like I’m talking contemporary postmodern super deep threes like from Kobe, Curry, Harden, KD and LeBron. And he was draining it

[3ball]

Curry averaged 30 ppg 50/40/90. (gold standard for shooters) He's the only person to ever do that.

He is the GOAT shooter.

Klay and Reggie are better than MJ at shooting too and had midrange games.
If you can't make contested jumpshots, you aren't the goat shooter.. you have your stats, I have mine

Curry's sub-par ability and efficiency on contested jumpshots prevents him from having mid-range volume, particularly in the clutch when he needs it most

[tpols]

your rationale is silly. 50/40/90 is used by the shooting community as a whole to recognize perfection in the field.

the way you measure things isn't used at all, and was just pulled out your ass.

Most of why MJ was better in the clutch is because he was simply a better player. If he had Curry's size and athleticism, he'd be Larry Jordan.

[3ball]

the way you measure things isn't used at all


.
.
.
2019 Regular Season "closest defender" stats on 3-pointers


Curry


https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-25-2019/kWY9Tu.gif


Total 3-point attempts per game: 11.6
Attempts that are "open" (4-6 feet) or "wide open" (6+ feet): 9.3
__________________________________________________ ___________
Percentage of attempts that are "open" or "wide open.. 80.2%

Conclusion on Curry - he needs space to shoot threes, thus hurting him in the clutch compared to good mid-range players, who don't need any room and can get the shot whenever they want



Dame "Dollar"


https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-25-2019/rGbyxf.gif


Total 3-point attempts per game: 7.9
Attempts that are "open" (4-6 feet) or "wide open" (6+ feet):5.7
__________________________________________________ ___________
Percentage of attempts that are "open" or "wide open": 72.2%

Conclusion on Dame[/COLOR] - he needs space to shoot threes, thus hurting him in the clutch compared to good mid-range players, who don't need any room and can get the shot whenever they want



Harden


https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-25-2019/iFSWLP.gif


Total 3-point attempts per game: 13.0
Attempts that are "open" (4-6 feet) or "wide open" (6+ feet):. 3.6
__________________________________________________ ___________
Percentage of attempts that are "open" or "wide open.. 27.7%

Conclusion on Harden - he DOESN'T need space to shoot threes, however, he only shoots about 30% on closely contested shots, so a player shooting under 50% from mid-range can match or exceed him
.

[bizil]

When it comes to midrange shooting, MJ IS the greatest of all time. If u are talking the greatest shooter ever in general, that's Steph. If u are talking about the best overall scoring skillset, then KD and Kobe come into the equation.

[3ball]

can you post the link just to make sure?



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzbrBUFB4Y&t=02m12s


^^^ 12 straight minutes of bailout threes, including tons of 27+ footers

I would love to see MJ's 3-point percentage when the shot clock is under 4 seconds.. it probably mirrors his regular percentage because I believe most of the threes MJ ever took were bailouts... The exceptions are any year he took over 1.5 attempts (more than minimal volume), where he always shot great (90', 93'.... 95', 96', 97')

I doubt lebron has 12 straight minutes of bailout threes

[tpols]

the difference between harden and curry is harden doesnt play off ball to try and free himself up.

so we have to circle back to your "long" dribble rants... which you say are bad. And off ball is good.

Yet here, youre effectively saying harden > curry because he takes contested shots, instead of freeing himself up off ball and boosting his team's teamwork.

yet another contradiction.... you'd have to be really dumb to criticize Chef for working hard to get open.

[Uncle Drew]

So, conclusion: he has no case whatsoever. Next.

[tpols]

watch the link already posted in this thread. it's got shot after shot of curry making 25-30 foot jumpers while being DRAPED.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTA5aBmmYJg&feature=emb_logo


and this mfer talking about contested shots :lol

[Turbo Slayer]

watch the link already posted in this thread. it's got shot after shot of curry making 25-30 foot jumpers while being DRAPED.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTA5aBmmYJg&feature=emb_logo


and this mfer talking about contested shots :lol :oldlol:

[red1]

I saw this a couple of times this morning when they uploaded it. ESPN's been killing it with the highlights.


Im going to ask them not to upload any more mj highlights though.


what I want to see is more pippen defensive highights like the way scottie famously shut down a young and talented kukoc in the '92 olympics.


people are always criticizing pippen for his leadership acting like he's the only guy who ever got a migraine. :no:



FYI kukoc still speaks very highly of pippen to this day even though pippen gave him the worst experience of his life in the olympics. kukoc said he couldn't get a shot off against pippens smothering defense he'd never seen such elite defense in his life :oldlol:

[3ball]

the difference between harden and curry is harden doesnt play off ball to try and free himself up.

so we have to circle back to your "long" dribble rants... which you say are bad. And off ball is good.

Yet here, youre effectively saying harden > curry because he takes contested shots, instead of freeing himself up off ball and boosting his team's teamwork.

yet another contradiction.... you'd have to be really dumb to criticize Chef for working hard to get open.
I never said harden > curry as a shooter

I was just responding to your claim that no one looked at contested efficiency (the closest defender stats posted earlier).

And by showing that curry struggles at contested jumpshots, it shows that he can't be goat shooter.. Most 3-pointers are stand-still shots - they aren't done floating, or fading super-hard, or done off a ton of fakes/moves like mid-range jumpers are - so MJ has superior SKILL shooting jumpshots (windshield move shit) and better contested accuracy

80% of curry's threes are open in today's spaced game (90% for rest of league).. i think MJ would destroy under those circumstances.. or even if they were more contested

[Turbo Slayer]

Dame "Dollar"


https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-25-2019/rGbyxf.gif


Total 3-point attempts per game: 7.9
Attempts that are "open" (4-6 feet) or "wide open" (6+ feet):5.7
__________________________________________________ ___________
Percentage of attempts that are "open" or "wide open": 72.2%

Conclusion on Dame[/COLOR] - he needs space to shoot threes, thus hurting him in the clutch compared to good mid-range players, who don't need any room and can get the shot whenever they want

Dame isnt clutch tf


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-M3x-eZpV8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mejFtEY5faU

[tpols]

I was just responding to your claim that no one looked at contested efficiency (the closest defender stats posted earlier).

Never said that at all. I said that it was never the ultimate decision maker for who was a great shooter. In fact, it's never been used that way at all.


Most 3-pointers are stand-still shots

have you ever seen Steph Curry play basketball? He's on the move taking his 3's whether on or off ball. He isnt James Jones standing still in a corner waiting for an open shot.

:facepalm

[Stephonit]

.
.
2019 Regular Season "closest defender" stats on 3-pointers


Curry


https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-25-2019/kWY9Tu.gif


Total 3-point attempts per game: 11.6
Attempts that are "open" (4-6 feet) or "wide open" (6+ feet): 9.3
__________________________________________________ ___________
Percentage of attempts that are "open" or "wide open.. 80.2%

Conclusion on Curry - he needs space to shoot threes, thus hurting him in the clutch compared to good mid-range players, who don't need any room and can get the shot whenever they want



Dame "Dollar"


https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-25-2019/rGbyxf.gif


Total 3-point attempts per game: 7.9
Attempts that are "open" (4-6 feet) or "wide open" (6+ feet):5.7
__________________________________________________ ___________
Percentage of attempts that are "open" or "wide open": 72.2%

Conclusion on Dame[/COLOR] - he needs space to shoot threes, thus hurting him in the clutch compared to good mid-range players, who don't need any room and can get the shot whenever they want



Harden


https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-25-2019/iFSWLP.gif


Total 3-point attempts per game: 13.0
Attempts that are "open" (4-6 feet) or "wide open" (6+ feet):. 3.6
__________________________________________________ ___________
Percentage of attempts that are "open" or "wide open.. 27.7%

Conclusion on Harden - he DOESN'T need space to shoot threes, however, he only shoots about 30% on closely contested shots, so a player shooting under 50% from mid-range can match or exceed him
.


You aren't even reading the charts correctly from what I can tell. On very tight and tight defense Curry has a higher percentage of makes.

[tpols]

Dame isnt clutch tf


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-M3x-eZpV8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mejFtEY5faU

im actually starting to notice something now.

Dame and Curry are the only players ive seen take 40 footers regularly. Surely, anybody taking shots that far will have a few feet of space.

We might as well crown shaq and moses malone better shooters than Chef. After all... every shot they ever took was with somebody pressed on them.

GOAT shooters i guess.

[Turbo Slayer]

im actually starting to notice something now.

Dame and Curry are the only players ive seen take 40 footers regularly. Surely, anybody taking shots that far will have a few feet of space.

We might as well crown shaq and moses malone better shooters than Chef. After all... every shot they ever took was with somebody pressed on them.

GOAT shooters i guess. Good argument! :applause:

[Uncle Drew]

Lillard is the most overrated player I've seen in a long time.

[tpols]

Good argument! :applause:

i would love to see curry vs jordan in a game of horse.

Guy would be calling shots MJ might airball. :lol

[Turbo Slayer]

Imagine somebody IRL telling someone that MJ is a better 3 point shooter than Curry. :oldlol: I would not believe it...

This might be one of the only times I defend Curry and his stans in this regard...

Curry's EFG% is higher than Jordan... (this stat makes 3's more valuable in the calculations...)

Curry (58)

MJ (51)

3P%

MJ (33)

Curry (44)

Not only that but MJ only averaged around 2 threes attempted super low volume compared to Curry's.... which is 8.2 threes attempted...

[3ball]

have you ever seen Steph Curry play basketball? He's on the move taking his 3's whether on or off ball. He isnt James Jones standing still in a corner waiting for an open shot.

:facepalm
He isn't pulling up off a hard drive, doing the windshield wiper or a similar move on every three... or any of them, nor are his threes contested.. it's not even close to the same dimension of jumpshooting skill

80% of curry's threes are open in today's spaced game (90% for rest of the league).. i think MJ would destroy under those circumstances..

or even if threes were more contested because mj was used the that as a mid-range shooter and is probably a better bailout 3-point shooter then Curry:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzbrBUFB4Y&t=02m12s


We already know he's way more clutch than mr 0/5

[tpols]

^^^ to that point, a lot of MJ's ability to shoot better contested 15 foot shots was his athleticism.

You had to play him more for the drive, and his vertical and 6'6 height allowed him to get shots up over defenders easier.

That's not a skill thing... it's an athleticism advantage.

[tpols]

MJ already got his 3's more open than Curry does and he played with a shortened line, while chef bombs 10 feet beyond an extended one.

The Blazers dared MJ to shoot 3's because it was the lesser of two evils and he buried them. But they werent nearly as long range or contested as Curry is from deep.

His form is too line drive and predicated on jumping ability rather chef's quick release flick. He could never be a great 3 pt shooter if facing similar outside attention.

[3ball]

^^^ to that point, a lot of MJ's ability to shoot better contested 15 foot shots was his athleticism.

You had to play him more for the drive, and his vertical and 6'6 height allowed him to get shots up over defenders easier.

That's not a skill thing... it's an athleticism advantage.
He used his athleticism, but Blake Griffin is a great athlete too and you don't see him winning scoring title every year on mostly jumpers

It was MJ's goat form and footwork (both superior to Curry's) that separated MJ from other great athletes

I believe jordan would be shooting threes like FT's in today's game because that's what it looked like any time he took volume and got going.. the game wasn't geared for shooting threes back then so his big 3-point games were purely organic, and it looked like ft shooting

[ClipperRevival]

Curry averaged 30 ppg 50/40/90. (gold standard for shooters) He's the only person to ever do that.

He is the GOAT shooter.

Klay and Reggie are better than MJ at shooting too and had midrange games.

On what basis can you claim Klay or Reggie were are/better mid-range shooters? If you are going to make a claim, need to back it up with evidence.

MJ > both when it comes to volume, accuracy, variety (fadeaway, jab step pull up, live dribble pull up and 1 or 2 dribble pull up from the triple threat). MJ mastered every way you can conceivably shoot the mid-range. I give Miller/Klay the edge in catch & shoot but that's it.

[tpols]

On what basis can you claim Klay or Reggie were are/better mid-range shooters? If you are going to make a claim, need to back it up with evidence.

MJ > both when it comes to volume, accuracy, variety (fadeaway, jab step pull up and 1 or 2 dribble pull up). I give them the edge in catch & shoot.

What you're referencing is scoring. Not pure shooting. You're involving all types of dribbling and the like in your analysis.

Anybody in the basketball world would tell you reggie miller was a better shooter than michael jordan. It was... his entire game.

Reggie was a HOF player entirely off his shooting alone. At an all star level, he couldnt dribble, couldnt pass, couldnt rebound and couldnt defend.

Thats how dominant his shooting was.

:roll:

You Jordan stans crack me up.

[Roundball_Rock]

ESPN also named him the GOAT athlete of the 20th century. Has there ever been a television network that has been so worshipful towards a public figure? Someone may say Fox News with Trump, but Trump is the current president. MJ has done nothing in 20+ years but ESPN consistently (even before the documentary) talks about him more than people who actually still play (with the exceptions of LeBron and Brady).

[ClipperRevival]

What you're referencing is scoring. Not pure shooting. You're involving all types of dribbling and the like in your analysis.

Anybody in the basketball world would tell you reggie miller was a better shooter than michael jordan. It was... his entire game.

Reggie was a HOF player entirely off his shooting alone. At an all star level, he couldnt dribble, couldnt pass, couldnt rebound and couldnt defend.

Thats how dominant his shooting was.

:roll:

You Jordan stans crack me up.

I actually misread your post. Thought you said they had better mid-range games over MJ.

[Turbo Slayer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4S1SjMaZF2A

VS


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLuq8pDdfUE

All shots are wide open...

[3ball]

MJ already got his 3's more open than Curry does and he played with a shortened line, while chef bombs 10 feet beyond an extended one.



League-wide ORtg cratered when they shortened the line because it shrunk the court and reduced spacing

So MJ's threes at the shortened line were probably more contested but they were just long 2's, where he always shot in the low 40's despite contests.






The Blazers dared MJ to shoot 3's because it was the lesser of two evils and he buried them. But they werent nearly as long range or contested as Curry is from deep.



Curry's threes are more open because 80% of them are taken with 4+ feet of room, which NBA.com terms "open" or "wide open"





His form is too line drive and predicated on jumping



^^^ a complete lie - he barely elevates on catch-and-shoot threes.

He only elevates on pull-ups, like you're supposed to - and his elevation was goat, so his pull-up threes would be goat too (better than Curry's low-elevation pull-ups)

And btw, any time he took volume and got going, his 3-point shot looked like a FT... so easy... Again, he barely elevated on catch-and-shoot threes






ability rather chef's quick release flick. He could never be a great 3 pt shooter if facing similar outside attention


.
jordan would be shooting threes like FT's in today's game because that's what it looked like any time he took volume and got going..

The game wasn't geared for shooting threes back then so his big 3-point games were purely organic, and it looked like ft shooting

Watch his big 3-point games where he gets going - it looks easier than Curry, although he doesn't shoot deep threes... Except bailouts, which he has many of

[ClipperRevival]

Also, just to add, "shooting" isn't just about making a 30 footer in a regular season game. LOL. That sh*t doesn't fly come playoff time when guys are draped all over you and can get physical with you. Arms get tired and you can be off for long stretches. What's much more important and efficient in playoff bball is the mid-range game.

[3ball]

Also, just to add, "shooting" isn't just about making a 30 footer in a regular season game. LOL. That sh*t doesn't fly come playoff time when guys are draped all over you and can get physical with you. Arms get tired and you can be off for long stretches. What's much more important and efficient in playoff bball is the mid-range game.
Exactly.. what good is being the so-called best shooter if your shooting skill doesn't win

Otoh, MJ's jumpshooting skill won as the best player, on far more jumpshooting volume, variety and contest then curry ever did

[ClipperRevival]

Bron fans must be seething......:roll:

Video references Kawhi, Dirk and Kobe as players mimiced MJ's mid-range to win rings. No mention of LeGOAT. Ouchee.

[tpols]

I mean... Curry and Reggie are both 60+ TS (true "shooting" %) in the playoffs.

Which is higher than Jordan. On way more jumpers obviously, MJ stayed dunking and laying the ball up more.

So the regular season argument flies out the door.

Most of what you guys tally up is about scoring... physical play... athleticism yes these things matter and Jordan had them much more abundantly. Doesnt mean he could shoot as well.

Educate yourself 50/40/90. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50%E2%80%9340%E2%80%9390_club)

These are the GOAT shooters.

Bird
Dirk
Curry
Durant
Miller
Nash
Price


MJ didnt have shit ^^^ on them shooting the ball. You keep wanting to expand the scope of things, but this is just about shooting.

[Turbo Slayer]

Curry is the greatest shooter EVER.

Curry's ability to shoot threes is unprecedented...

Curry ranks 3rd of all-time in 3 pointer made (2495 3's)... and Curry ranks 6th of all-time on 3 pointer percentage (.434)...

Crazy..

Anyone that says otherwise is plain hating on Curry.

[ClipperRevival]

I mean... Curry and Reggie are both 60+ TS (true "shooting" %) in the playoffs.

Which is higher than Jordan. On way more jumpers obviously, MJ stayed dunking and laying the ball up more.

So the regular season argument flies out the door.

Most of what you guys tally up is about scoring... physical play... athleticism yes these things matter and Jordan had them much more abundantly. Doesnt mean he could shoot as well.

Educate yourself 50/40/90. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50%E2%80%9340%E2%80%9390_club)

These are the GOAT shooters.

Bird
Dirk
Curry
Durant
Miller
Nash
Price


MJ didnt have shit ^^^ on them shooting the ball. You keep wanting to expand the scope of things, but this is just about shooting.

Brah :facepalm

Last time i checked, a mid-range shot is still a "shot". It IS a party of "shooting." What you are talking about is what many might refer to "pure shooters". And perhaps in that regard, your list is pretty accurate. But when talking about in-game, playoff action when it matters most, you have to count all aspects of "shooting", including all varieties of the mid-range game that MJ mastered that the guys on your list didn't.

[tpols]

Brah :facepalm

Last time i checked, a mid-range shot is still a "shot". It IS a party of "shooting." What you are talking about is what many might refer to "pure shooters". And perhaps in that regard, your list is pretty accurate. But when talking about in-game, playoff action when it matters most, you have to count all aspects of "shooting", including all varieties of the mid-range game that MJ mastered that the guys on your list didn't.


Dirk, Durant, and Bird didnt master the midrange game?

:facepalm

man... im done with you clowns.

[ClipperRevival]

Dirk, Durant, and Bird didnt master the midrange game?

:facepalm

man... im done with you clowns.

Key word being "varieties".

I would put KD's mid-range "variety" up there with anyone because he had the athleticism to do a 1 or 2 dribble pull up from the triple threat like MJ. This move requires quickness/explosiveness, something Dirk/Bird lacked.

Ditto for the quick, live dribble pull up jumpers. KD could do that, Bird/Dirk not so much. They were better as stagnant shooters. Dirk obviously with that step back too though.

I'm getting very detailed and i know many of you don't like this but my disagreement with you in this thread is that you brush off the mid-range game as if it's just some off-chance skill that has very little importance when in reality, it just might be the most important shot a player can have come playoff time.

[Turbo Slayer]

Dirk, Durant, and Bird didnt master the midrange game?

:facepalm

man... im done with you clowns. Lol

When Dirk won MVP, he shot 353-711 from midrange on 50%... https://stats.nba.com/player/1717/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Compare that to Kawhi who is currently in his prime... he shot 124-282 on 44% (2020 season)

https://stats.nba.com/player/202695/shooting/

2019 season- Kawhi shot 152-331 on 46% from mid range Link- https://stats.nba.com/player/202695/shooting/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Even if the season ended in regular fashion in 2020, Dirk would still have more mid range shots on better efficiency than Kawhi..

Saying that Dirk didn't master the "midrange" game is BS...

[tpols]

Lol

When Dirk won MVP, he shot 353-711 from midrange on 50%... https://stats.nba.com/player/1717/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Compare that to Kawhi who is currently in his prime... he shot 124-282 on 44% (2020 season)

https://stats.nba.com/player/202695/shooting/

2019 season- Kawhi shot 152-331 on 46% from mid range Link- https://stats.nba.com/player/202695/shooting/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Even if the season ended in regular fashion in 2020, Dirk would still have more mid range shots on better efficiency than Kawhi..

Saying that Dirk didn't master the "midrange" game is BS...


Not only that... Dirk's 2011 Cinderella championship run was the greatest midrange expose' ever put on in professional basketball.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM9MYvoQn8M

48 points on 15 shots.

ZERO 3 point attempts. Every shot heavily contested out the post.

That literally blows my mind about that game. I didnt even realize that.

That must be the greatest midrange performance of all time and it was accomplished in the WCF's.

Clipper, you need to get in here if you like midrange shooting and scoring. This will make MJ look like Lebron.

[LostCause]

KD and Kobe both have strong arguments over MJ


Provide those arguments then, for both KD and Kobe

[ClipperRevival]

Not only that... Dirk's 2011 Cinderella championship run was the greatest midrange expose' ever put on in professional basketball.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM9MYvoQn8M

48 points on 15 shots.

ZERO 3 point attempts. Every shot heavily contested out the post.

That literally blows my mind about that game. I didnt even realize that.

That must be the greatest midrange performance of all time and it was accomplished in the WCF's.

Clipper, you need to get in here if you like midrange shooting and scoring. This will make MJ look like Lebron.

:facepalm

Straight CRINGE.

[ClipperRevival]

Let's see Dirk try this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEGjlw5Dv38

[AussieSteve]

Jordan is the greatest shooter ever.

All you have to do is watch any bulls playoff game from the 90s that was close going into the 4th to see this.

When Jordan took over in these situations it was always by hitting jump shot after jump shot. As spectacular as he was, having so many different ways he could score, when the bulls needed buckets he would seemingly effortlessly just take and make mid range jump shots 3, 4, 5+ possessions in a row down the stretch, and all of a sudden the bulls have breathing space. You couldn't defend it. You just had to concede it and try and score on the other end.

[Phoenix]

Not only that... Dirk's 2011 Cinderella championship run was the greatest midrange expose' ever put on in professional basketball.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM9MYvoQn8M

48 points on 15 shots.

ZERO 3 point attempts. Every shot heavily contested out the post.

That literally blows my mind about that game. I didnt even realize that.

That must be the greatest midrange performance of all time and it was accomplished in the WCF's.

Clipper, you need to get in here if you like midrange shooting and scoring. This will make MJ look like Lebron.

Was also 24-24 from the line ( also incredible). Just thought it worth noting that it took quite a bit more than 15 shots to hit 48, even though hitting 12 of those shots obviously needs no explanation for how potent that is.

[3ball]

For once I agree with Rachel Nichols:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wf7VH6PtDpw&t=03m08s

[Manny98]

Provide those arguments then, for both KD and Kobe

KD shot over 50% from mid range off high volume over his last 3 seasons and then add to the fact that it is so hard to even contest his shot because of his high reach makes him deadlier than anyone ever

[Manny98]

Jordan is the greatest shooter ever.

All you have to do is watch any bulls playoff game from the 90s that was close going into the 4th to see this.

When Jordan took over in these situations it was always by hitting jump shot after jump shot. As spectacular as he was, having so many different ways he could score, when the bulls needed buckets he would seemingly effortlessly just take and make mid range jump shots 3, 4, 5+ possessions in a row down the stretch, and all of a sudden the bulls have breathing space. You couldn't defend it. You just had to concede it and try and score on the other end.

"The greatest shooter" ever is a career 30% 3 point shooter and has never shot 90% from the charity line one in his entire career

Yikes :oldlol:

[tpols]

Was also 24-24 from the line ( also incredible). Just thought it worth noting that it took quite a bit more than 15 shots to hit 48, even though hitting 12 of those shots obviously needs no explanation for how potent that is.

true...

that makes it even better though.

24/24 from the FT line?

:biggums:

And Jordan Stans talking about dirk not as good out the midrange because hes slower.

7 feet tall, unlimited moves, and a jumper that kisses the jumbobtron will fix that.

[Axe]

Curry averaged 30 ppg 50/40/90. (gold standard for shooters) He's the only person to ever do that.

He is the GOAT shooter.

Klay and Reggie are better than MJ at shooting too and had midrange games.
Curry was 0/8 in go-ahead shots during the last 20 seconds of crucial playoff games.

[sdot_thadon]

It's common knowledge that Mj has been in the argument for goat mid range shooter for a long time, but this thread makes my head hurt. He's not the goat shooter, nor does his status require him to be. There's tons of guys you look at before you even mention him in overall shooting as the goat. And let's be honest the mid range argument hinges on not having any data whatsoever from basically anyone in the 80s, aka the mid range golden era nor really anyone from the 90s. We're unable to quantify a guy like Pistol Pete who definitely is among the best shooters to ever touch a rock or even a guy like Jerry West.

[Phoenix]

true...

that makes it even better though.

24/24 from the FT line?

:biggums:

And Jordan Stans talking about dirk not as good out the midrange because hes slower.

7 feet tall, unlimited moves, and a jumper that kisses the jumbobtron will fix that.

I dont need to be sold on Dirk bro. Regardless of this discussion he's always been one of my favorites to watch. He's quite easily one of the GOAT midrange players.

[Bronbron23]

Curry averaged 30 ppg 50/40/90. (gold standard for shooters) He's the only person to ever do that.

He is the GOAT shooter.

Klay and Reggie are better than MJ at shooting too and had midrange games.

Depends on how you look at it. Just pure shooting while being open than yeah curry, klay and miller are better. If were talking with good defence and having to beat and shoot on or over the defence than its easily mj. Overall id have to give ir to mj because when it comes to the post season especially deep in the post season wide open shots are harder to come by and the ability to create your own shot becomes more important.

[Stephonit]

Curry was 0/8 in go-ahead shots during the last 20 seconds of crucial playoff games.

Misleading. Better than 12/24 because that still means there were still 4 more times you were in that position than just 8. Even in those 8 times Curry didn't lose them all—he set a record to win a game in one of them.

There was also this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrS66Uu0bb4

Now tell me how many times others have come back from double digits down at the half to win an elimination game.

[Round Mound]

MJ was the perfect player in terms of athleticism and skills put together. He was easily the best mid range jump shooter of the 90s.

[tpols]

Depends on how you look at it. just pure shooting while being open than yeah curry, klay and miller are better. If were talking with good defence and having to beat and shoot on or over the defence than its easily mj. Overall id have to give ir to mj because when it comes to the post season especially deep in the post season wide open shots are harder to come by and the ability to create your own shot becomes more important.

thats an absolutely ludicrous point since curry and miller were doubled and trapped like hell running off ball and never truly "open" without shaking free from extreme pressure.

curry on ball as well doubled at half court with a live dribble.

the way you guys put it, you'd think these guys werent the key focus of the defense and were just hitting shots spot up wide open.

Unfortunately, reality paints a totally opposite picture.

[Turbo Slayer]

Curry was 0/8 in go-ahead shots during the last 20 seconds of crucial playoff games. Thats misleading though my friend...

That stat paints that Curry is a bonafide choker aka not clutch (P.S. Thats false btw...)

What you should be looking at is this stat.. 5 minutes left in the 4th QTR or OT with 5 point differential.... It offers way more sample size.....

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&player_id=curryst01&year_id=&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q1=&q2=&q3=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=5&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&is_tying=&is_go_ahead=&c1stat=&c1comp=&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=&c3val=&order_by=date_game&order_by_asc=&offset=100

Curry shot 49/131 on 37%... While Curry is not a elite closer compared to the other top-tier players in the league (Curry has low volume compared to other players) , he isn´t a choker either... Dont rely on those 24 second or 20 seconds stats to draw conclusions...



Curry is clutch in fact....

[Vragrant]

Lillard is the most overrated player I've seen in a long time.

Yes!

[Bronbron23]

thats an absolutely ludicrous point since curry and miller were doubled and trapped like hell running off ball and never truly "open" without shaking free from extreme pressure.

curry on ball as well doubled at half court with a live dribble.

the way you guys put it, you'd think these guys werent the key focus of the defense and were just hitting shots spot up wide open.

Unfortunately, reality paints a totally opposite picture.

Nah dude you just seeing what u want. The reason why you have to send so many guys at curry is because of all the sceens he gets. No one person can run around all those screens. Take the screens away and curry and reggie would rarely get doubled. Just go back and watch pretty much every finals curry has been in. Defences are much more disciplined dealing with the warriors screens. They switch alot more and communicate much better. Curry ends up having to create a shot on his own once the screens break down and scoring comes alot harder for him. Hes still great dont get me wrong but he has to work way harder to get his points. This also leaves him fatigued towards the end of games which also has an effect on him. This isnt even arguable dude. Just go back and watch the games.

[Stephonit]

Nah dude you just seeing what u want. The reason why you have to send so many guys at curry is because of all the sceens he gets. No one person can run around all those screens. Take the screens away and curry and reggie would rarely get doubled. Just go back and watch pretty much every finals curry has been in. Defences are much more disciplined dealing with the warriors screens. They switch alot more and communicate much better. Curry ends up having to create a shot on his own once the screens break down and scoring comes alot harder for him. Hes still great dont get me wrong but he has to work way harder to get his points. This also leaves him fatigued towards the end of games which also has an effect on him. This isnt even arguable dude. Just go back and watch the games.

What in the above has to do with jump shooting ability? Show me the shooting numbers. Curry's playoffs eFG% average is 55.8%. Jordan as far as I can see doesn't have a single season where he matched that. The reason they send so many guys at Curry is if you let him shoot he'll outshoot you due to his efficiency. Better to get it out of his hands. With lesser players you can dare them to beat you with iso because you still have a chance to outshoot them.

[bizil]

I mean... Curry and Reggie are both 60+ TS (true "shooting" %) in the playoffs.

Which is higher than Jordan. On way more jumpers obviously, MJ stayed dunking and laying the ball up more.

So the regular season argument flies out the door.

Most of what you guys tally up is about scoring... physical play... athleticism yes these things matter and Jordan had them much more abundantly. Doesnt mean he could shoot as well.

Educate yourself 50/40/90. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50%E2%80%9340%E2%80%9390_club)

These are the GOAT shooters.

Bird
Dirk
Curry
Durant
Miller
Nash
Price


MJ didnt have shit ^^^ on them shooting the ball. You keep wanting to expand the scope of things, but this is just about shooting.

I agree! When I think of great shooting IN GENERAL, I think of 50-40-90 guys who are ALSO very good to great scorers PPG wise. The guys u listed all hit that 50-40-90 mark and were very good to great scorers. From there, u got Ray and Klay. Who could get 47-40-88 in seasons and are also very good to great scorers on top of it. Bird, Dirk, Curry, KD, Reggie, Nash, Price, Ray, and Klay are among my top 10 shooters ever FOR SURE! For the 10th slot, u could choose from a number of guys like a Peja or Hornacek for example. And on a side note, MOST of the guys I've listed won a three point shootout on top of it. Bird, Dirk, Curry, Price, Ray, Klay, Peja, and Hornacek all won at least one! BUT if we are talking ONLY midrange shooting, then of course MJ is as good as anybody!

[FromDowntown]

You can’t be the best jump shooter of all time when you can’t shoot 3s consistently.


Stop making threads.

End scene

[Bronbron23]

What in the above has to do with jump shooting ability? Show me the shooting numbers. Curry's playoffs eFG% average is 55.8%. Jordan as far as I can see doesn't have a single season where he matched that. The reason they send so many guys at Curry is if you let him shoot he'll outshoot you due to his efficiency. Better to get it out of his hands. With lesser players you can dare them to beat you with iso because you still have a chance to outshoot them.

It had alot to do with it. Obviously curry is a much better pure shooter than mj but mj is much better at creating space and getting his shot off. Mj got ridiculous elevation on his shot so he could get a good look in situations where curry can't. This helps make him a better jump shooter even though curry is a better shooter than mj. Again it depends what your looking for. Curry would crush mj in a shooting competition from anywhere on the floor but mjs jump shot is much more effective against tough defenses. Despite what stephs stans think he relies heavily on screens to shoot as efficiently as he does. When theres no screens or ineffective screens curry is much less efficient. This has been proven time and time again in the finals.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Yes!

How? I’d say it’s Westbrick ... by far

[Bronbron23]

I agree! When I think of great shooting IN GENERAL, I think of 50-40-90 guys who are ALSO very good to great scorers PPG wise. The guys u listed all hit that 50-40-90 mark and were very good to great scorers. From there, u got Ray and Klay. Who could get 47-40-88 in seasons and are also very good to great scorers on top of it. Bird, Dirk, Curry, KD, Reggie, Nash, Price, Ray, and Klay are among my top 10 shooters ever FOR SURE! For the 10th slot, u could choose from a number of guys like a Peja or Hornacek for example. And on a side note, MOST of the guys I've listed won a three point shootout on top of it. Bird, Dirk, Curry, Price, Ray, Klay, Peja, and Hornacek all won at least one! BUT if we are talking ONLY midrange shooting, then of course MJ is as good as anybody!

I think espn and some people in general are taking into account mj's shot making ability. The elevation, quickness of his pullup, hang time, fading away ect. These are factors that make him a great in game jump shooter. Most of the people you mentioned are missing one or a couple of those jump shooting traits. Kd is the only player that id say has an argument as far as better in game jump shooter.

If we're talking just pure shooting with no or little defence than its a different story. Curry, reggie, klay, ray and a whole lot of people are better shooters than mj.

It be like saying whos a better facial dunker between mj and james white, gerald green or zach Lavine. Those guys are all better dunkers but mj is a much better facial dunker.

[Bronbron23]

End scene

Thats dumb. Threes is just one of the many aspects of jump shooting. Mj's fadeaway and midrange pull up was just as effective and devastating as curry or whoever's threes. I could as easy say "you cant be considered a great jump shooter when you cant hit fadeaways consistently.

[Mr Feeny]

I think Steph is still the best ever. He isn't as good from midrange but much better from 3s. Reggie and Dirk are up there as well.

The argument is there for Jordan but I think I have Steph as the best shooter ever.

[tpols]

I agree! When I think of great shooting IN GENERAL, I think of 50-40-90 guys who are ALSO very good to great scorers PPG wise. The guys u listed all hit that 50-40-90 mark and were very good to great scorers. From there, u got Ray and Klay. Who could get 47-40-88 in seasons and are also very good to great scorers on top of it. Bird, Dirk, Curry, KD, Reggie, Nash, Price, Ray, and Klay are among my top 10 shooters ever FOR SURE! For the 10th slot, u could choose from a number of guys like a Peja or Hornacek for example. And on a side note, MOST of the guys I've listed won a three point shootout on top of it. Bird, Dirk, Curry, Price, Ray, Klay, Peja, and Hornacek all won at least one! BUT if we are talking ONLY midrange shooting, then of course MJ is as good as anybody!

ah yes... Ray and Klay.

I'd think they were better than price and nash, no?

even though they barely missed the cutoff, shooting from all over the court was their main game while the former were more into passing and lower volume.

[Rysio]

Considering the defensive attention and that most of kobes shots were heavily contested I'll say kobe has case too.

[Smoke117]

Wait...don’t you hate espn because of how much they worship Bran? I guess when they a toss a nickel your boys way you get on your knees like all rest, eh. Interesting...:lol

[Mr Feeny]

Considering the defensive attention and that most of kobes shots were heavily contested I'll say kobe has case too.

Why? All his splits are there and you can see that he wasnt even an average jump shooter compared to any all time great. He took more shots than anyone and missed more shots than anyone because he was an awful shooter.

Moreover, why the heck would anyone give credit to someone for taking dumb contested shots and having a low basketball IQ?

[Axe]

Thats dumb. Threes is just one of the many aspects of jump shooting. Mj's fadeaway and midrange pull up was just as effective and devastating as curry or whoever's threes. I could as easy say "you cant be considered a great jump shooter when you cant hit fadeaways consistently.
He wouldn't comprehend any of that at all.

[Rysio]

Why? All his splits are there and you can see that he wasnt even an average jump shooter compared to any all time great. He took more shots than anyone and missed more shots than anyone because he was an awful shooter.

Moreover, why the heck would anyone give credit to someone for taking dumb contested shots and having a low basketball IQ?

I'll give him credit because making tough shots is needed when defenses get tight which kobe was probably the best at.

[Mr Feeny]

I'll give him credit because making tough shots is needed when defenses get tight which kobe was probably the best at.

What bubble do you live in? The stats are there for everyone to see. When the defenses got tight in the finals, he never once stopped 40 points in a game and his shooting percentage was 40%. He was abysmal when the defenses got tight.

[LostCause]

KD shot over 50% from mid range off high volume over his last 3 seasons and then add to the fact that it is so hard to even contest his shot because of his high reach makes him deadlier than anyone ever

That's it? That's not a "strong argument" at all. Also, where's the Kobe argument?

As for Jordan, keep in mind the video references his shooting in 97. He was 33. Here are his numbers from 90-92 (3 years also)
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?317950-1990-1992-Michael-Jordan-Shot-Chart

For KD's Warriors years, which you cited, according to NBA.com, he's at 50.56% for midrange shots on 1,114 attempts
Jordan from 90-92 is at 51.1% on 1552 attempts (Which btw doesn't even include all his games, so chances are his attempts were much higher and his FG% is most likely higher too)

So he has over 50% shooting from midrange across 3 seasons on obviously much higher volume than Durant does. So how exactly is that a "strong argument" for KD when Jordan did the same shit but more? Keep in mind KD did that on the Warriors, the team yal said was GOAT-level without him and had so much offensive help he was largely getting single coverage.


Here's an image highlighting 92:
http://dsz7vodgjx60a.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/BIL-MJ-9192.jpg

So are we saying KD is better because he's taller since he doesn't have the statistical argument, or at least, not according to the statistics you cited. Also, again, where's the Kobe argument?

[fourkicks44]

That's it? That's not a "strong argument" at all. Also, where's the Kobe argument?

As for Jordan, keep in mind the video references his shooting in 97. He was 33. Here are his numbers from 90-92 (3 years also)
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?317950-1990-1992-Michael-Jordan-Shot-Chart

For KD's Warriors years, which you cited, according to NBA.com, he's at 50.56% for midrange shots on 1,114 attempts
Jordan from 90-92 is at 51.1% on 1552 attempts (Which btw doesn't even include all his games, so chances are his attempts were much higher and his FG% is most likely higher too)

So he has over 50% shooting from midrange across 3 seasons on obviously much higher volume than Durant does. So how exactly is that a "strong argument" for KD when Jordan did the same shit but more? Keep in mind KD did that on the Warriors, the team yal said was GOAT-level without him and had so much offensive help he was largely getting single coverage.


Here's an image highlighting 92:
http://dsz7vodgjx60a.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/BIL-MJ-9192.jpg

So are we saying KD is better because he's taller since he doesn't have the statistical argument, or at least, not according to the statistics you cited. Also, again, where's the Kobe argument?

Good to see you still around, brother.

Keep smiling....

[KD7]

That's it? That's not a "strong argument" at all. Also, where's the Kobe argument?

As for Jordan, keep in mind the video references his shooting in 97. He was 33. Here are his numbers from 90-92 (3 years also)
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?317950-1990-1992-Michael-Jordan-Shot-Chart



For KD's Warriors years, which you cited, according to NBA.com, he's at 50.56% for midrange shots on 1,114 attempts
Jordan from 90-92 is at 51.1% on 1552 attempts (Which btw doesn't even include all his games, so chances are his attempts were much higher and his FG% is most likely higher too)

So he has over 50% shooting from midrange across 3 seasons on obviously much higher volume than Durant does. So how exactly is that a "strong argument" for KD when Jordan did the same shit but more? Keep in mind KD did that on the Warriors, the team yal said was GOAT-level without him and had so much offensive help he was largely getting single coverage.


Here's an image highlighting 92:
http://dsz7vodgjx60a.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/BIL-MJ-9192.jpg

So are we saying KD is better because he's taller since he doesn't have the statistical argument, or at least, not according to the statistics you cited. Also, again, where's the Kobe argument?

Why are you lying they don't even have concrete mid range data from that season and the image you posted literally just cherrypicked Jordans good games to boost up his percentages :facepalm

KD shot 55% from the mid range area in the 2017-2018 season so he has the greatest mid range shooting season ever

Warriors KD is the greatest mid range shooter ever that is a fact, the numbers speak for themselves

https://i.postimg.cc/htR10QzN/D-Ez9xt-XYAAIZug.jpg

[KD7]

Jordan stans in this thread trying to argue that he's a better shooter than Curry :roll::roll::roll::roll:

[Hey Yo]

Dirk, Bird, and Curry >
Curry doesn't belong in this conversation. He barely ever shoots mid-range jumpers.

It's either at the rim or behind the line for him.

[fourkicks44]

Jordan stans in this thread trying to argue that he's a better shooter than Curry :roll::roll::roll::roll:

Tbh tho, prime Dan Majerle would rape Steph Curry.

Considering that Curry's mom got touched up by his college bud, imagine if she got a glimpse at old Thunder Dan.

Plus I hear he could recondition a mustang motor like he could drop a three back in 92....

[Hey Yo]

Jordan stans in this thread trying to argue that he's a better shooter than Curry :roll::roll::roll::roll:
Curry's a better 3pt shooter, but anywhere inside the arc, it's MJ and it's not even close.

[LostCause]

Why are you lying they don't even have concrete mid range data from that season and the image you posted literally just cherrypicked Jordans good games to boost up his percentages :facepalm

KD shot 55% from the mid range area in the 2017-2018 season so he has the greatest mid range shooting season ever

Warriors KD is the greatest mid range shooter ever that is a fact, the numbers speak for themselves

https://i.postimg.cc/htR10QzN/D-Ez9xt-XYAAIZug.jpg

Wait so you're trying to come at the sample size? So 53 of 80 games is cherrypicking now and not a good sample size? Prove they only grabbed his "best" games then, otherwise we'll just throw that complaint out as being unsupported

It's a perfectly valid sample size and it is ALSO valid for the other statistics presented. You can't dismiss evidence gathered without actually providing evidence to counter it. Not how this works. The guy who did the work "Phila" has his data referenced by dozens of other sources who cite it. From the evidence, I'll take the 51.3% for KD's percentage however Jordan shooting 51.1% on much greater volume (and potential to be higher in both) still makes him the better mid-range shooter

Lastly, you're still avoiding it. You clearly said you can make a strong case for KD AND Kobe. KD's case isn't strong, you have a .2% difference in efficiency vs. a massive difference in volume, and you've yet to even mention Kobe since your original post. Still waiting for that one

[KD7]

Curry's a better 3pt shooter, but anywhere inside the arc, it's MJ and it's not even close.

Curry shot 60% from mid range a couple of seasons ago, he is a great mid range shooter he just doesn't choose to shoot them at a high volume because 3 > 2

He's also a career 90+% free throw shooter whilst MJ isn't

Curry is elite at shooting from all area's of the floor whilst MJ is only elite from the mid range.

Sorry but MJ has zero argument over Curry as the better shooter

[KD7]

Wait so you're trying to come at the sample size? So 53 of 80 games is cherrypicking now and not a good sample size? Prove they only grabbed his "best" games then, otherwise we'll just throw that complaint out as being unsupported

It's a perfectly valid sample size and it is ALSO valid for the other statistics presented. You can't dismiss evidence gathered without actually providing evidence to counter it. Not how this works. The guy who did the work "Phila" has his data referenced by dozens of other sources who cite it. From the evidence, I'll take the 51.3% for KD's percentage however Jordan shooting 51.1% on much greater volume (and potential to be higher in both) still makes him the better mid-range shooter

Lastly, you're still avoiding it. You clearly said you can make a strong case for KD AND Kobe. KD's case isn't strong, you have a .2% difference in efficiency vs. a massive difference in volume, and you've yet to even mention Kobe since your original post. Still waiting for that one

Imagine comparing a 53 game sample size to a sample size across 3 seasons :roll:

At least pull up MJs mid range data for a entire season so we can compare

[LostCause]

Imagine comparing a 53 game sample size to a sample size across 3 seasons :roll:

At least pull up MJs mid range data for a entire season so we can compare

Manny, serious question, are you legit dumb or just playing this way?

I clearly provided both a single season sample size in the image (92) as well as Phila's data from 90-92, referenced many times in my post. 90-92 is 3 seasons

So try again

Also, I'm gonna chalk up you saying "KD and Kobe have strong arguments" over MJ to you just talking out of your ass. You've at best provided a decent case for KD (Not a strong one) that he has an argument to be comparable but not better and you're just pretending you never said Kobe at all now lmao. So I'll take that one as a concession

[KD7]

Manny, serious question, are you legit dumb or just playing this way?

I clearly provided both a single season sample size in the image (92) as well as Phila's data from 90-92, referenced many times in my post. 90-92 is 3 seasons

So try again

Also, I'm gonna chalk up you saying "KD and Kobe have strong arguments" over MJ to you just talking out of your ass. You've at best provided a decent case for KD (Not a strong one) that he has an argument to be comparable but not better and you're just pretending you never said Kobe at all now lmao. So I'll take that one as a concession
No you provided a half season sample try again

I find it weird how the person who made that image seemingly excluded almost 30 games of that season which could have reduced his overall percentage for that season

[Bronbron23]

Jordan stans in this thread trying to argue that he's a better shooter than Curry :roll::roll::roll::roll:

Again shooter and jump shooter arnt the same. Jump shooter is more specific and when applied to in game mj is definitely the better jump shooter. Not because he can shoot better in general but because mj has skill sets and the advantage in size and athleticism to be able to be a more effective jump shooter in a game.

It be like saying whos the better facial dunker lebron or zach lavine. Lavine is a much better dunker in general but because of brons size, athleticism and skill set hes a much better in game facial dunker.

And its not like were talking way better or anything. Mj is better by a slight margin. Even though curry has a harder time than mj getting a jump shot off against good defenses hes still elite in that erea.

[LostCause]

No you provided a half season sample try again

I find it weird how the person who made that image seemingly excluded almost 30 games of that season which could have reduced his overall percentage for that season

The sample size is fine (65% of the season). Variance won't affect it too much. That's like saying we can't say LeBron would average 10apg this season because we only got 60/82 games and it could've dropped down to 9. Here's the man himself on the data size and why he chose it:


Here’s PHILA on why he chose that season and why he’s only breaking down data from 53 of the 80 games Jordan played in that season.

This was an “average” season from Jordan’s prime, certainly not an outlier for him. Actually, depending on who you ask, this might not even be one of his 3 best seasons. Regardless, the reason I chose this year is due to the game footage availability. I couldn’t find more than 25-30 regular season Bulls games from 1985-1991 or 1993. Same goes for any of the 1980’s Lakers, Celtics or Pistons games. I believe 50+ games is certainly an adequate sample size to give some idea of his impact. I also doubt there is any major highlight bias in this data, except in the raw ppg average and 3 point %. His 2 point FG% is actually deflated in this sample, as is the overall team ORtg/DRtg (though this might also underrate the bench). 1991-92 was also the season Jordan called himself a “utility” player.

He admits that his 2P% is actually lower than it actually is due to sample size (Which btw includes his midrange %). Stop trying to run from the data and actually address it. Unless you can provide counter evidence, your attempts to refute it aren't even worth talking about (Additionally, once again, that image is just 92. There's data for 90-92 in the other link provided)

Address it or stop complaining

[warriorfan]

thats an absolutely ludicrous point since curry and miller were doubled and trapped like hell running off ball and never truly "open" without shaking free from extreme pressure.

curry on ball as well doubled at half court with a live dribble.

the way you guys put it, you'd think these guys werent the key focus of the defense and were just hitting shots spot up wide open.

Unfortunately, reality paints a totally opposite picture.

Good post

[Bronbron23]

Curry shot 60% from mid range a couple of seasons ago, he is a great mid range shooter he just doesn't choose to shoot them at a high volume because 3 > 2

He's also a career 90+% free throw shooter whilst MJ isn't

Curry is elite at shooting from all area's of the floor whilst MJ is only elite from the mid range.

Sorry but MJ has zero argument over Curry as the better shooter

Yes curry is a better shooter but hes not a better jump shooter. Theres many aspects to shooting. Threes, mid range, post erea, foul shots. Curry is definitely the better 3 point shooter and foul shooter but mj is better in the post area and mid range.

And 3 isnt always greater than 2. Thats a very simplistic way to think. Scoring is situational. Sometimes a mid range is the better play and guys who are elite in that area are gonna be more successful than guys who can just shoot threes. Not saying thats curry. He's is elite in both areas but hes no where near as effective in the mid range as mj for obvious reasons.

[KD7]

The sample size is fine (65% of the season). Variance won't affect it too much. That's like saying we can't say LeBron would average 10apg this season because we only got 60/82 games and it could've dropped down to 9. Here's the man himself on the data size and why he chose it:



He admits that his 2P% is actually lower than it actually is due to sample size (Which btw includes his midrange %). Stop trying to run from the data and actually address it. Unless you can provide counter evidence, your attempts to refute it aren't even worth talking about (Additionally, once again, that image is just 92. There's data for 90-92 in the other link provided)

Address it or stop complaining
Why are you so afraid to post a full season sample :lol

In fact you should be posting a 3 season sample like I did with KD but im being generous since it's harder to get the data from that era.

[LostCause]

Why are you lying.....

KD shot 55% from the mid range area in the 2017-2018 season so he has the greatest mid range shooting season ever


Curry shot 60% from mid range a couple of seasons ago

https://media1.tenor.com/images/2f33c22b3bf38b4f652c67ab9674ef73/tenor.gif

[KD7]

Yes curry is a better shooter but hes not a better jump shooter. Theres many aspects to shooting. Threes, mid range, post erea, foul shots. Curry is definitely the better 3 point shooter and foul shooter but mj is better in the post area and mid range.

And 3 isnt always greater than 2. Thats a very simplistic way to think. Scoring is situational. Sometimes a mid range is the better play and guys who are elite in that area are gonna be more successful than guys who can just shoot threes. Not saying thats curry. He's is elite in both areas but hes no where near as effective in the mid range as mj for obvious reasons.
Shooter and jumpshooter are the same thing? :biggums:

And Curry is a better mid range shooter than Jordan is a 3 point shooter

Curry has elite mid range efficiency he just doesn't attempt them at a very high volume.

[KD7]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/2f33c22b3bf38b4f652c67ab9674ef73/tenor.gif

???

[LostCause]

Why are you so afraid to post a full season sample :lol

In fact you should be posting a 3 season sample like I did with KD but im being generous since it's harder to get the data from that era.

Last time I'll post this. 3 season sample

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?317950-1990-1992-Michael-Jordan-Shot-Chart

If you don't understand how sample sizes work, that's on you. You're clearly afraid to actually deal with the data though, hence you keep harping on posting a full 82-game season. If your argument is so strong why aren't you making it against the data provided? Lol

Address it or shut up Manny. Just understand that you're basically showing that you can't respond to the evidence presented of Jordans prowess from 90-92 so you're basically trying to "pick" an easier position to attack. If thats your goal, go compare KD's best years to Jordans Wizards years :lol I'm sure you'll make a very compelling case there

[LostCause]

???

You admitted Curry shot 60% from midrange but KD has the greatest midrange season ever shooting 55%

I'm curious how you're gonna explain this away without killing your own argument concerning KD/MJ

[KD7]

You admitted Curry shot 60% from midrange but KD has the greatest midrange season ever shooting 55%

I'm curious how you're gonna explain this away without killing your own argument concerning KD/MJ
It doesn't kill shit because you only posted his stats for half a season :roll:

Still waiting for you to post the full season data, chop chop

[Hey Yo]

Curry shot 60% from mid range a couple of seasons ago, he is a great mid range shooter he just doesn't choose to shoot them at a high volume because 3 > 2

He's also a career 90+% free throw shooter whilst MJ isn't

Curry is elite at shooting from all area's of the floor whilst MJ is only elite from the mid range.

Sorry but MJ has zero argument over Curry as the better shooter
Curry doesnt / hasnt come close to shooting enough mid-range jumpers or shots to even qualify for this discussion.

Less than 8% of his career shots are from mid-range.

[KD7]

Last time I'll post this. 3 season sample

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?317950-1990-1992-Michael-Jordan-Shot-Chart

If you don't understand how sample sizes work, that's on you. You're clearly afraid to actually deal with the data though, hence you keep harping on posting a full 82-game season. If your argument is so strong why aren't you making it against the data provided? Lol

Address it or shut up Manny. Just understand that you're basically showing that you can't respond to the evidence presented of Jordans prowess from 90-92 so you're basically trying to "pick" an easier position to attack. If thats your goal, go compare KD's best years to Jordans Wizards years :lol I'm sure you'll make a very compelling case there

Finally you post a sample of more than 53 games :applause:

[FromDowntown]

Scottie Pippen
Stimulus Package

MJ should be thankful for that boost to his 1-9 looming career loser efforts pre Stimulus Package.

[FromDowntown]

If you take out MJ's three years ofLil tykes shortened 3 pt line isnt he like 24% from 3 for the other 12 seasons? :lol

#NotMyGoat

[KD7]

KD took 1117 mid range jumpshots over the past 3 seasons and made 51.3% of them

That number goes up to 54% percent come playoff time :bowdown:

Name a player that took at least 1000 mid range jumpshots over the course of 3 seasons and makes 51% of them

I'll wait.

I'm not saying that KD is a better mid range jumpshooter over MJ but you're a moron if you think that KD doesn't have an argument with his amazing efficiency over the past 3 seasons and with decent volume

[LeCroix]

MJs mid range is untouchable. He made it popular even now some abandon it for threes but he made it popular. He played in a back to basket post up era and changed the game with high flying dunks, spot on defense, and midrange excellence. MJ is midrange to me

[LeCroix]

KD took 1117 mid range jumpshots over the past 3 seasons and made 51.3% of them

That number goes up to 54% percent come playoff time :bowdown:

Name a player that took at least 1000 mid range jumpshots over the course of 3 seasons and makes 51% of them

I'll wait.

I'm not saying that KD is a better mid range jumpshooter over MJ but you're a moron if you think that KD doesn't have an argument with his amazing efficiency over the past 3 seasons and with decent volume

Great data, where do you get this data info from and what are Chris Paul's statistical numbers?

[KD7]

Great data, where do you get this data info from and what are Chris Paul's statistical numbers?
All the data is on NBA.com

https://stats.nba.com/players/shooting/?CF=Mid-Range%20FGA*GE*100&DistanceRange=By%20Zone&PerMode=Totals&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=1&sort=Mid-Range%20FGA

[Bronbron23]

Shooter and jumpshooter are the same thing? :biggums:

And Curry is a better mid range shooter than Jordan is a 3 point shooter

Curry has elite mid range efficiency he just doesn't attempt them at a very high volume.

Well im thinking a jump shot as more of a pull up j so i guess it depends on your definition.

And yes again sayin curry is a better 3 point shooter than mj is a 2 point shooter isnt that simple. Curry's 3 ball can and has been gaurded pretty effectively. He needs screens to shoot as efficiently as he does. Either to get open or to get a switch on a worse defender. Mj dosnt need this to be efficient. His jump shot is efficient in any situation because of his better skill, size and athleticism.

So while curry is definitely a better shooter in laymen terms, when discussing in game effectiveness especially against tough defenses MJ's jumpshot is more effective.

[LeCroix]

All the data is on NBA.com

https://stats.nba.com/players/shooting/?CF=Mid-Range%20FGA*GE*100&DistanceRange=By%20Zone&PerMode=Totals&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=1&sort=Mid-Range%20FGA

Nice and thank you
Looking at all the samples of 250 attempts or more, ranked by FG%

CP
Beal
McCollum
Irving
Tobias
Kawhi Klay
Durant
Ibaka
Geoege Paul
Collison
Schroeder

CP is the only guy above 50% with such attempt numbers

[Bronbron23]

[QUOTE=FromDowntown;13969897]If you take out MJ's three years ofLil tykes shortened 3 pt line isnt he like 24% from 3 for the other 12 seasons? :lol sure in the regular sesson maybe. What about when it counts in the post season?

Playoffs reg 3 point line: mj 45.5 % curry 40%
Finals reg 3 point line : mj 41 curry: 39%

Even if you take mj's first 2 outlier years out where he shot 13% and 100% hed still be at 36% for the post season which is still pretty good.

Curry shot way more and is definitely a better 3 point shooter im not arguing that. When it counts though mj was as good as almost anyone

[SamuraiSWISH]

People don't understand. The 3 ball wasn't an important part of basketball for the duration of the 80s. Larry Bird didn't shoot a postmodern, contemporary percentage from behind the stripe or near the same volume. Do people consider him a bad shooter or three point shooter? No.

In fact Jordan even in seasons where the line wasn't shortened (even though it wasn't significant decrease, and actually made the half court more congested / compact with defenders than before or after in terms of spacing) he shot a good percentage in years where he made it a focus of his game to be versatile enough.

I mean Drexler and the Blazers said he couldn't shoot threes. And dared him. Then he goes off for 6 of them IN A HALF of an NBA Finals game. A game he was so blistering hot, with 35 first half points in only 15 minutes, where if the game was actually competitive, and required him to continue playing, scoring, and his foot wasn't off the pedal ... he was on pace to put up 70 points on the next best player at his position, IN A FINALS GAME.

The point was Mike was uber competitive. He spoke on the reliance on the three ball being a crutch for certain players, that end up having to live and die by it. See Harden, and even Curry's struggles in modern playoffs or Finals as example of this. Jordan could shoot it, and would've got even better at it if it was more of a necessity in order to win. He'd adapt. Thus his peak apex predator level of competitor spirit.

Hell, look at his years in Washington as a 39 and 40 year old. He lost damn near all of his god like athleticism, but to be crafty started to incorporate a lot of more modern ball handling moves and techniques that the Iversons, McGradys, Pierce, and Kobe's of the world were using in order to free up space for himself.

He was a competitor. It's a false narrative that he was some abysmal three point shooter. Percentage wise he's right there with Kobe and LeBron if I'm not mistaken. And his playoff percentage was even better. If you're scoring 32+ ppg for your career (best ever, and pre Wizard years) ... add more of an emphasis on shooting 2-3 extra threes per game. And being competent at shooting it. You're looking at a guy who in the modern NBA that is perpetually putting up 35 - 40 ppg as plausible, hell, probable averages.

[tpols]

People don't understand. The 3 ball wasn't an important part of basketball for the duration of the 80s. Larry Bird didn't shoot a postmodern, contemporary percentage from behind the stripe or near the same volume. Do people consider him a bad shooter or three point shooter? No.

In fact Jordan even in seasons where the line wasn't shortened (even though it wasn't significant decrease, and actually made the half court more congested / compact with defenders than before or after in terms of spacing) he shot a good percentage in years where he made it a focus of his game to be versatile enough.

I mean Drexler and the Blazers said he couldn't shoot threes. And dared him. Then he goes off for 6 of them IN A HALF of an NBA Finals game. A game he was so blistering hot, with 35 first half points in only 15 minutes, where if the game was actually competitive, and required him to continue playing, scoring, and his foot wasn't off the pedal ... he was on pace to put up 70 points on the next best player at his position, IN A FINALS GAME.

The point was Mike was uber competitive. He spoke on the reliance on the three ball being a crutch for certain players, that end up having to live and die by it. See Harden, and even Curry's struggles in modern playoffs or Finals as example of this. Jordan could shoot it, and would've got even better at it if it was more of a necessity in order to win. He'd adapt. Thus his peak apex predator level of competitor spirit.

Hell, look at his years in Washington as a 39 and 40 year old. He lost damn near all of his god like athleticism, but to be crafty started to incorporate a lot of more modern ball handling moves and techniques that the Iversons, McGradys, Pierce, and Kobe's of the world were using in order to free up space for himself.

He was a competitor. It's a false narrative that he was some abysmal three point shooter. Percentage wise he's right there with Kobe and LeBron if I'm not mistaken. And his playoff percentage was even better. If you're scoring 32+ ppg for your career (best ever, and pre Wizard years) ... add more of an emphasis on shooting 2-3 extra threes per game. And being competent at shooting it. You're looking at a guy who in the modern NBA that is perpetually putting up 35 - 40 ppg as plausible, hell, probable averages.


3ball and this other clown's logic is still crazy dude.

According to them all that matters for "shooting" is how well you make contested midrange jumpers. So shots in every other capacity and from every other spot dont count?

I guess bernard king and melo are better shooters than Curry too... lord knows they were much better contested midrange shooters.

It's just a dumb, myopic, cherrypicked criteria.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

In-terms of efficiency and skill? And improv under duress? Yeah I would say Mike is at WORST 1B.

Would also take Durant and Jordan over Curry if you're factoring in postseason play, and jumpers from everywhere on the court. Not just threes.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

People don't understand. The 3 ball wasn't an important part of basketball for the duration of the 80s. Larry Bird didn't shoot a postmodern, contemporary percentage from behind the stripe or near the same volume. Do people consider him a bad shooter or three point shooter? No.

In fact Jordan even in seasons where the line wasn't shortened (even though it wasn't significant decrease, and actually made the half court more congested / compact with defenders than before or after in terms of spacing) he shot a good percentage in years where he made it a focus of his game to be versatile enough.

I mean Drexler and the Blazers said he couldn't shoot threes. And dared him. Then he goes off for 6 of them IN A HALF of an NBA Finals game. A game he was so blistering hot, with 35 first half points in only 15 minutes, where if the game was actually competitive, and required him to continue playing, scoring, and his foot wasn't off the pedal ... he was on pace to put up 70 points on the next best player at his position, IN A FINALS GAME.

The point was Mike was uber competitive. He spoke on the reliance on the three ball being a crutch for certain players, that end up having to live and die by it. See Harden, and even Curry's struggles in modern playoffs or Finals as example of this. Jordan could shoot it, and would've got even better at it if it was more of a necessity in order to win. He'd adapt. Thus his peak apex predator level of competitor spirit.

Hell, look at his years in Washington as a 39 and 40 year old. He lost damn near all of his god like athleticism, but to be crafty started to incorporate a lot of more modern ball handling moves and techniques that the Iversons, McGradys, Pierce, and Kobe's of the world were using in order to free up space for himself.

He was a competitor. It's a false narrative that he was some abysmal three point shooter. Percentage wise he's right there with Kobe and LeBron if I'm not mistaken. And his playoff percentage was even better. If you're scoring 32+ ppg for your career (best ever, and pre Wizard years) ... add more of an emphasis on shooting 2-3 extra threes per game. And being competent at shooting it. You're looking at a guy who in the modern NBA that is perpetually putting up 35 - 40 ppg as plausible, hell, probable averages.

Great point about Bird. He was also a midrange maestro.

[LostCause]

Finally you post a sample of more than 53 games :applause:

:biggums:

Post #90 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?479248-ESPN-makes-the-case-for-MJ-as-the-greatest-jumpshooter-of-all-time&p=13969833&viewfull=1#post13969833)

Literally right at the start of the post. I guess you're an actual moron



KD took 1117 mid range jumpshots over the past 3 seasons and made 51.3% of them

That number goes up to 54% percent come playoff time :bowdown:

Name a player that took at least 1000 mid range jumpshots over the course of 3 seasons and makes 51% of them

I'll wait.
From post #90 again...
Jordan from 90-92 is at 51.1% on 1552 attempts (Which btw doesn't even include all his games, so chances are his attempts were much higher and his FG% is most likely higher too)

Again, actual moron


I'm not saying that KD is a better mid range jumpshooter over MJ but you're a moron if you think that KD doesn't have an argument with his amazing efficiency over the past 3 seasons and with decent volume

Of course KD has an argument to be comparable, but your original statement was, to quote you:


Best mid range shooter of all time tho? KD and Kobe both have strong arguments over MJ

Emphasis on the over part. Comparable is one thing, neither one of them have strong arguments of being better though. Which you ridiculously claimed. Then again you seem to understand how dumb that statement was seeing as you absolutely refuse to even utter Kobe's name in this thread again after saying that lol

[KD7]

:biggums:

Post #90 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?479248-ESPN-makes-the-case-for-MJ-as-the-greatest-jumpshooter-of-all-time&p=13969833&viewfull=1#post13969833)

Literally right at the start of the post. I guess you're an actual moron



From post #90 again...
Jordan from 90-92 is at 51.1% on 1552 attempts (Which btw doesn't even include all his games, so chances are his attempts were much higher and his FG% is most likely higher too)

Again, actual moron



Of course KD has an argument to be comparable, but your original statement was, to quote you:



Emphasis on the over part. Comparable is one thing, neither one of them have strong arguments of being better though. Which you ridiculously claimed. Then again you seem to understand how dumb that statement was seeing as you absolutely refuse to even utter Kobe's name in this thread again after saying that lol

The numbers prove he has a strong argument dummy

51.3 percent over 3 seasons and 54% in the playoffs

KD is the most efficient high volume mid range shooter ever that is a fact

[FromDowntown]

[QUOTE=FromDowntown;13969897]If you take out MJ's three years ofLil tykes shortened 3 pt line isnt he like 24% from 3 for the other 12 seasons? :lol sure in the regular sesson maybe. What about when it counts in the post season?

Playoffs reg 3 point line: mj 45.5 % curry 40%
Finals reg 3 point line : mj 41 curry: 39%

Even if you take mj's first 2 outlier years out where he shot 13% and 100% hed still be at 36% for the post season which is still pretty good.

Curry shot way more and is definitely a better 3 point shooter im not arguing that. When it counts though mj was as good as almost anyone

Didn't mike Jordan shoot around 25% from 3p for 12 seasons if you take out his three years where the NBA shortened the line?

[bizil]

ah yes... Ray and Klay.

I'd think they were better than price and nash, no?

even though they barely missed the cutoff, shooting from all over the court was their main game while the former were more into passing and lower volume.


Ya I would take Ray and Klay over Price and Nash too shooting the rock. I wasn't giving a specific order for my top 9 shooters ever other than Curry at the top. Hands down, Curry is the best shooter of all time. Then u could list Ray, Klay, Bird, Miller, Nash, Price, KD, and Dirk in various ways. Now SCORING SKILLSET wise, I think KD is best of that bunch. Add in the fact he's 6'11, that makes him a bit more unique than the other GOAT shooters.

[bizil]

MJ could have been a very good 3 ball shooter if he chose to focus on it. I stand by that. BUT if MJ was capable of being a shooter on Miller's caliber in that time, MJ would have been PULLING from deep much more! MJ knew what he did BEST! And focused on those elements! That's what hoops is all abount. Maximizing your strengths. And working on your weaknesses. The guys in MJ's era didn't grow up with the three point line. Didn't play with it in college. So u can't really knock those guys for not focusing on it as much.

Bird in comparison to today's game didn't shoot a lot of threes back in the day. BUT he FOR DAMN SURE in that era shot them enough TO KNOW he was a great pure shooter. He led the league in 3PM TWICE! Was always among the top guys in terms of 3PA. U could look at his 50-40-90 shit, his three point shootout titles, and PPG to see that. Bird was THE GUY to put the 3 point shot on the map!!! In terms of IMPORTANCE, u gotta put Bird on any Mt. Rushmore of pure shooting.

[LostCause]

The numbers prove he has a strong argument dummy

51.3 percent over 3 seasons and 54% in the playoffs

KD is the most efficient high volume mid range shooter ever that is a fact

51% over 3 seasons is the low end for what Jordan did from 90-92 though so that's not a "strong argument over" unless you don't know what "strong argument" means. Also seeing as MJ's volume was FAR more than KD's and there's only a .2% difference in efficiency that makes him the most efficient high volume shooter. This is also something you proved you agree with as I'll explain below

Before you start bitching about the .2% difference you just said earlier KD's season was the best all-time shooting 55% even though you also said Curry had a season shooting 60%. The only reason you'd make that statement is if you considered KD's volume to be enough to make up for the 5% difference Curry had better than him (Curry attempted 130 midrange shots that year to KD's 461 in 2018. Difference of 331 shots. So it's not a bad position to say KD's was better). Here are your quotes. Don't run from them:


KD shot 55% from the mid range area in the 2017-2018 season so he has the greatest mid range shooting season ever

Curry shot 60% from mid range a couple of seasons ago

Yet Jordan has over 500 more shots than KD does and the difference in efficiency is far less than 5%, it's only 0.2%. So by YOUR own logic, Jordan's better because of way more volume, but I fully expect you to revert back to complete moron status despite my showing how you're clearly contradicting yourself here and don't really know which way you want to go. Give it up Manny, you're not equipped for this debate

By the way, say Kobe. Did you forget the name? You said it in your original post but now you seem to have forgot he exists. So say the name. Go for it. I dare you. Reference:

Best mid range shooter of all time tho? KD and Kobe both have strong arguments over MJ

[FromDowntown]

[QUOTE=Bronbron23;13969927]

Didn't mike Jordan shoot around 25% from 3p for 12 seasons if you take out his three years where the NBA shortened the line?


I stand corrected, I had to look it up. It was actually 28.8% for 12 season :lol

Goat jumpshooter :lol FOH

[AirBonner]

Has MJ ever had a 50/40/90 season? Bird is actually the better shooter

[KD7]

51% over 3 seasons is the low end for what Jordan did from 90-92 though so that's not a "strong argument over" unless you don't know what "strong argument" means. Also seeing as MJ's volume was FAR more than KD's and there's only a .2% difference in efficiency that makes him the most efficient high volume shooter. This is also something you proved you agree with as I'll explain below

Before you start bitching about the .2% difference you just said earlier KD's season was the best all-time shooting 55% even though you also said Curry had a season shooting 60%. The only reason you'd make that statement is if you considered KD's volume to be enough to make up for the 5% difference Curry had better than him (Curry attempted 130 midrange shots that year to KD's 461 in 2018. Difference of 331 shots. So it's not a bad position to say KD's was better). Here are your quotes. Don't run from them:




Yet Jordan has over 500 more shots than KD does and the difference in efficiency is far less than 5%, it's only 0.2%. So by YOUR own logic, Jordan's better because of way more volume, but I fully expect you to revert back to complete moron status despite my showing how you're clearly contradicting yourself here and don't really know which way you want to go. Give it up Manny, you're not equipped for this debate

By the way, say Kobe. Did you forget the name? You said it in your original post but now you seem to have forgot he exists. So say the name. Go for it. I dare you. Reference:
Those numbers you posted doesn't even cover 3 full seasons so we can't even say for sure that MJ shot 51% from 90-92 but we for KD

But what about the playoffs when it matters the most

KD shot 54% from mid range in the postseason from 17-19

MJ shot 40% from mid range in the 97 & 98 postseason

https://stats.nba.com/players/shooting/?CF=Mid-Range%20FGA*GE*100&DistanceRange=By%20Zone&PerMode=Totals&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=1&sort=Mid-Range%20FGA

[tpols]

MJ could have been a very good 3 ball shooter if he chose to focus on it. I stand by that. BUT if MJ was capable of being a shooter on Miller's caliber in that time, MJ would have been PULLING from deep much more! MJ knew what he did BEST! And focused on those elements! That's what hoops is all abount. Maximizing your strengths. And working on your weaknesses. The guys in MJ's era didn't grow up with the three point line. Didn't play with it in college. So u can't really knock those guys for not focusing on it as much.

Bird in comparison to today's game didn't shoot a lot of threes back in the day. BUT he FOR DAMN SURE in that era shot them enough TO KNOW he was a great pure shooter. He led the league in 3PM TWICE! Was always among the top guys in terms of 3PA. U could look at his 50-40-90 shit, his three point shootout titles, and PPG to see that. Bird was THE GUY to put the 3 point shot on the map!!! In terms of IMPORTANCE, u gotta put Bird on any Mt. Rushmore of pure shooting.

great insight. Bird really is the GOAT shooter because of what he did relative to his time.

With Dirk being the best "pure" midrange shooter of all time, and Curry the greatest, and most spectacular long range bomber.

It's definitely a joy to watch guys like this!

[KD7]

great insight. Bird really is the GOAT shooter because of what he did relative to his time.

With Dirk being the best "pure" midrange shooter of all time, and Curry the greatest, and most spectacular long range bomber.

It's definitely a joy to watch guys like this!
I forgot about Dirk:bowdown:

[3ball]

great insight. Bird really is the GOAT shooter because of what he did relative to his time.

With Dirk being the best "pure" midrange shooter of all time, and Curry the greatest, and most spectacular long range bomber.

It's definitely a joy to watch guys like this!
^^^ that's why MJ is goat

He's the only elite athlete that was also an elite jumpshooter (from either mid-range or 3-point)

Essentally, his shooting was goat level and can be compared to Dirk/Bird, except he can dunk from the FT line too

[KD7]

^^^ that's why MJ is goat

He's the only elite athlete that was also an elite jumpshooter (from either mid-range or 3-point)

Essentally, his shooting was goat level and can be compared to Dirk/Bird, except he can dunk from the FT line too

Durant is not an elite athlete?

[3ball]

Durant is not an elite athlete?
No power

No elevation

No hangtime

No strength


Not the first guy you think of when you think of an elite athlete..

[Lebron23]

Hell No. He is not even the best shooter in his era.

[KD7]

No power

No elevation

No hangtime

No strength


Not the first guy you think of when you think of an elite athlete..
It takes an elite athlete to be able to blow by Paul George and dunk like that


https://youtu.be/QsjBV9kO2ls

[3ball]

Hell No. He is not even the best shooter in his era.

MJ would be shooting threes like FT's in today's game, just like he did mid-range

He'd become the goat 3-pt shooter just like he did mid-range

And why did he become the goat mid-range shooter? It was the combination of goat form and goat drive, the same things that would allow him to become the goat 3-pt shooter

[tpols]

Hell No. He is not even the best shooter in his era.

Reggie Miller?

[Lebron23]

Reggie Miller?

Yes

[Keno]

klay, nash, curry all better than jordan, just to name a few.

[3ball]

Yes
Reggie's form was trash

MJ would be a better 3-point shooter today where everyone is forced to shoot threes

Watch MJ in games where he took high volume and got into a shooting rhythm - his threes looked like FT's because of his goat form... It would be like that every night in today's game where strategy dictates he take high volume every night

[tpols]

Yes

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BigUnrulyDotterel-size_restricted.gif

[3ball]

klay, nash, curry all better than jordan, just to name a few


.
None of those guys can shoot jumpers like the OP video

No "windshield wiper" jumpers for curry, klay or Nash lol... Inferior jumpshooting skill... :confusedshrug:






Klay, nash, curry all better than jordan, just to name a few


.
You're forgetting that anytime mj had volume, he shot well... just naturally.. without practicing... and when he took high volume and was in a rhythm, his shots look easier than Nash or Curry because his form was superior

Unfortunately, his low volume meant that he rarely got going - but his threes looked like FT's in games he got going and took high volume - he was shooting them SO easy because his form was goat.. In today's era, he'd be required to jack 3's and get into a rhythm each game, so he'd be getting hot from 3 every game just like he did from mid-range

[KD7]

MJs GOAT jumpshooting ability is on full display in this clip :applause:


https://youtu.be/jsjukb2NttM

[Bronbron23]

[QUOTE=Bronbron23;13969927]

Didn't mike Jordan shoot around 25% from 3p for 12 seasons if you take out his three years where the NBA shortened the line?

In the reg season maybe but you've seen mj's 3 point efficiency from the regular 3 pt line in the post season. Its up there with the atg shooters in history. Thats a fact so you can live on his regular season meaningless numbers ill take the post season where shit actually matters.

[Mamba4Life]

kobe was a better shooter than mj


much better from 3 point

better from mid range

could get hot faster

better at contested shots

better post fade

better at shooting of the dribble

[Axe]

kobe was a better shooter than mj


much better from 3 point

better from mid range

could get hot faster

better at contested shots

better post fade

better at shooting of the dribble
Stop fooling yourself.

[SamuraiSWISH]

^^^ that's why MJ is goat

He's the only elite athlete that was also an elite jumpshooter (from either mid-range or 3-point)

Essentally, his shooting was goat level and can be compared to Dirk/Bird, except he can dunk from the FT line too
You don’t consider Kobe an elite athlete? I do.

I just consider Jordan a godly athlete ...

[3ball]

You don’t consider Kobe an elite athlete? I do.

I just consider Jordan a godly athlete ...
I agree

But jordan was probably the best shooter-athlete ever.. out of all the goat athletes, only MJ is an elite shooter from either mid-range or 3-pt... all-time shooter actually

[Axe]

kobe was a better shooter than mj


much better from 3 point

better from mid range

could get hot faster

better at contested shots

better post fade

better at shooting of the dribble
Also bryant, if not on top, is one of the athletes that has missed more several field goals than most players in the league. So...

[AirBonner]

kobe was a better shooter than mj


much better from 3 point

better from mid range

could get hot faster

better at contested shots

better post fade

better at shooting of the dribble

Agree. Kobe was facing players like Wade while MJ faced who?

[Turbo Slayer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzeGvjs6HbI :biggums:

GOAT.

[FireDavidKahn]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EV_dNd5WsAESgN5?format=jpg&name=small

[Axe]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EV_dNd5WsAESgN5?format=jpg&name=small
Yes, lbj is truly selfless goat. 👏👏👏

[Stanley Kobrick]

being an efficient mid range shooter doesn't make you an elite marksman. Duncan and Garnet were elite mid range shooters, Zydrunas Ilgauskas was too. MJ camped in the high post, his bread and butter was creating space while being defended to get a clean shot. but he had lots of cold zones outside 20 feet and wasn't nearly as versatile to real elite shooters like Durant, Dirk or Curry who will damage you from anywhere on the court.

[LostCause]

KD seems to agree with 3ball

https://youtu.be/GXrzZmJgzbs

[FromDowntown]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EV_dNd5WsAESgN5?format=jpg&name=small

Well thats the end of that

[SATAN]

ESPN just say things to incite arguments. Don't know why people even listen to them for the most part.

[GimmeThat]

I too never understood why people played black jack

[3ball]

KD seems to agree with 3ball

https://youtu.be/GXrzZmJgzbs





Durant:



"... and MJ was a pure shooter.. A lot of people don't realize that because of his athleticism, but he was one of the best shooters ever - top 5, top 10 all time shooting the basketball"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GXrzZmJgzbs&t=03m10s


Game recognize game

You guys gonna call Durant clueless like you do me?? lol... :oldlol:

[Stephonit]

It had alot to do with it. Obviously curry is a much better pure shooter than mj but mj is much better at creating space and getting his shot off. Mj got ridiculous elevation on his shot so he could get a good look in situations where curry can't. This helps make him a better jump shooter even though curry is a better shooter than mj. Again it depends what your looking for. Curry would crush mj in a shooting competition from anywhere on the floor but mjs jump shot is much more effective against tough defenses. Despite what stephs stans think he relies heavily on screens to shoot as efficiently as he does. When theres no screens or ineffective screens curry is much less efficient. This has been proven time and time again in the finals.


https://www.gifgen.com/gif/1GbcnFfu.gif

https://www.gifgen.com/gif/WPGKhZR3.gif

[Manny98]

KD seems to agree with 3ball

https://youtu.be/GXrzZmJgzbs
No one cares what KD says

You can't be a top 10 shooter when you shoot 28% from the 3 point line and have never shot 90% from the free throw simple as that

[Bronbron23]

https://www.gifgen.com/gif/1GbcnFfu.gif

https://www.gifgen.com/gif/WPGKhZR3.gif

Yeah those are great plays by steph but not sure what a couple highlights prove. Im talking in generalities. You can find many highlights like this from steph. I could also find alot of stuff struggling to score without screens. Go watch full games and in general steph uses a shit ton of screens to score the way he does. But no ones saying he cant score without screens just that he struggles scoring without screens alot more than mj does. Its much easier for mj to rise up against a defender for a good look than it is for steph. This isnt even arguable.

And dont get me wrong its smart basketball. Why try to break your man down one on one when you can just get a screen to get open or get a screen to get a switch on a worse defender. Steph could of course play a more james harden style of ball but his efficiency would suffer a bit and so would his teams movement.

[Bronbron23]

being an efficient mid range shooter doesn't make you an elite marksman. Duncan and Garnet were elite mid range shooters, Zydrunas Ilgauskas was too. MJ camped in the high post, his bread and butter was creating space while being defended to get a clean shot. but he had lots of cold zones outside 20 feet and wasn't nearly as versatile to real elite shooters like Durant, Dirk or Curry who will damage you from anywhere on the court.

No it dosnt but its just as much part of jump shooting as shooting threes are.

And you said it best mj's bread and butter was creating space to get a clean shot. His vertical on his shot was also key in that. This is what puts him above those guys you mentioned. Dirk, curry and Durant are better jump shooters in general than mj but in games mj is much better at creating good looks on a consistent basis. On the topic of curry specifically hes obviously a better pure shooter but he cant get a good look whenever he wants. He has to run a marathon to get the same quality look that mj can get much easier. Mj can just rise up on almost anyone. Steph has to use screens or a series of dribbles to get a good look.

Its the same with dunking. Theres dunkers in the history of game that were better than mj but almost none of them were better in game dunkers because mj's skill and athleticism put him in positions more often to be able to dunk on or around guys.

[3ball]

No one cares what KD says

You can't be a top 10 shooter when you shoot 28% from the 3 point line and have never shot 90% from the free throw simple as that
KD agrees with me so case closed

You probably never played ball in your life.. you don't know shit, whereas KD is probably the best source on jumpshooting

[LostCause]

No one cares what KD says

You can't be a top 10 shooter when you shoot 28% from the 3 point line and have never shot 90% from the free throw simple as that

Let’s be honest. EVERYONE who knows basketball cares what KD says about basketball

The problem you have is no one cares what Manny says

Your understanding of the game is pretty low. No ones gonna dismiss KD, who studies the game and speaks on it well, in favor of Manny98.

You morons really overvalue your trolling opinions. Lmao

[Phoenix]

No one cares what KD says

You can't be a top 10 shooter when you shoot 28% from the 3 point line and have never shot 90% from the free throw simple as that

Funny. I've seen you refer to a players quote when it lines up with your own opinion. An opinion that doesn't line up? Oh no, I don't care about *that* opinion.

[Phoenix]

Let’s be honest. EVERYONE who knows basketball cares what KD says about basketball

The problem you have is no one cares what Manny says

Your understanding of the game is pretty low. No ones gonna dismiss KD, who studies the game and speaks on it well, in favor of Manny98.

You morons really overvalue your trolling opinions. Lmao

His understanding is pretty low? Think you're overrating him there. Try non-existent.

[sportjames23]

funny. I've seen you refer to a players quote when it lines up with your own opinion. An opinion that doesn't line up? Oh no, i don't care about *that* opinion.

got 'em

[RogueBorg]

Jordan is the greatest shooter ever.

All you have to do is watch any bulls playoff game from the 90s that was close going into the 4th to see this.

When Jordan took over in these situations it was always by hitting jump shot after jump shot. As spectacular as he was, having so many different ways he could score, when the bulls needed buckets he would seemingly effortlessly just take and make mid range jump shots 3, 4, 5+ possessions in a row down the stretch, and all of a sudden the bulls have breathing space. You couldn't defend it. You just had to concede it and try and score on the other end.

That was the best post I've ever read on what makes MJ the GOAT. It's the ability to take the game over when the game is on the line.

[Docs Orders]

No one cares what KD says

You can't be a top 10 shooter when you shoot 28% from the 3 point line and have never shot 90% from the free throw simple as that

Jordan fangirls squeeling like pigs after Bill Laimbeer, who you know played against MJ, shares his opinion. "SMH" "rivalry biased"


Fast forward 48hrs: same posters hoisting 9yo Kevin Durant in 1995 as a NBA historian :oldlol:


you can't make this shit up

:yaohappy:

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan fangirls squeeling like pigs after Bill Laimbeer, who you know played against MJ, shares his opinion. "SMH" "rivalry biased"


Fast forward 48hrs: same posters hoisting 9yo Kevin Durant in 1995 as a NBA historian :oldlol:


you can't make this shit up

:yaohappy:

They will say Laimbeer is biased because of his team's rivalry with the Bulls. Why doesn't that logic apply to KD? KD faced LeBron in the finals three times and LeBron has always been "that other guy" who was always better than LeBron year after year and KD the bridesmaid. Laimbeer had no personal rivalry with MJ. No one was comparing them.

[red1]

KD agrees with me so case closed

You probably never played ball in your life.. you don't know shit, whereas KD is probably the best source on jumpshooting

you're trash bro. stop lying. :oldlol:


if I ever see zach randolph in my life I'll ask him if he ever got dunked on by some random scrub 4 times, and he'll probably want to punch me out for asking such a stupid question. :oldlol:

[red1]

They will say Laimbeer is biased because of his team's rivalry with the Bulls. Why doesn't that logic apply to KD? KD faced LeBron in the finals three times and LeBron has always been "that other guy" who was always better than LeBron year after year and KD the bridesmaid. Laimbeer had no personal rivalry with MJ. No one was comparing them.

you're eating good bro. scottie's stock has been going UP.

[LostCause]

Jordan fangirls squeeling like pigs after Bill Laimbeer, who you know played against MJ, shares his opinion. "SMH" "rivalry biased"


Fast forward 48hrs: same posters hoisting 9yo Kevin Durant in 1995 as a NBA historian :oldlol:


you can't make this shit up

:yaohappy:

I get some of you are deficient in critical thinking but here’s a simple enough breakdown

Durant is a pretty intelligent student of the game. Similar to LeBron. There’s no ulterior motive or any association for him to affect his analysis of Jordan’s game. He’s an objective source

Laimbeer wasn’t dissecting Jordan’s game. However, we can’t say that Laimbeer is an objective source. We already know of his association with Jordan and it wasn’t positive. It’s possible that had no bearing on his words, but it can’t be discounted and we’ve already seen him downplaying Jordan’s game and significance to the game many times

You don’t even actually have a criticism of why Durants words shouldn’t hold value. Trying to dismiss them because.... he was a kid when Jordan was in his prime basically dismisses yourself and most people below 40 from being able to analyze Jordan. That’s obviously a dumb take but again.... you guys don’t have much in the way of critical thinking

But carry on

[LostCause]

They will say Laimbeer is biased because of his team's rivalry with the Bulls. Why doesn't that logic apply to KD? KD faced LeBron in the finals three times and LeBron has always been "that other guy" who was always better than LeBron year after year and KD the bridesmaid. Laimbeer had no personal rivalry with MJ. No one was comparing them.
The problem is KD wasn’t speaking about LeBron. He was asked to rate Jordan’s attributes on a scale of 1-5. So however he may feel about LeBron has no bearing on anything he said

Apples to Oranges

Btw, KD and LeBron don’t seem to have any animosity between each other. All evidence points to them getting along pretty well

[Phoenix]

The problem is KD wasn’t speaking about LeBron. He was asked to rate Jordan’s attributes on a scale of 1-5. So however he may feel about LeBron has no bearing on anything he said

Apples to Oranges

Btw, KD and LeBron don’t seem to have any animosity between each other. All evidence points to them getting along pretty well

At one point they were offseason workout partners. Not sure if that's still the case but often the animosity is more between the fanbase than the actual players.

[Docs Orders]

They will say Laimbeer is biased because of his team's rivalry with the Bulls. Why doesn't that logic apply to KD? KD faced LeBron in the finals three times and LeBron has always been "that other guy" who was always better than LeBron year after year and KD the bridesmaid. Laimbeer had no personal rivalry with MJ. No one was comparing them.

Precisely :oldlol:



edit: oh look Lost Cause/Phoenix sprinting in hand n hand again :roll:



https://i.postimg.cc/pXDPXHSL/3xf1j9.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[scuzzy]

Precisely :oldlol:



edit: oh look Lost Cause/Phoenix sprinting in hand n hand again :roll:



https://i.postimg.cc/pXDPXHSL/3xf1j9.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
They really are in every MJ thread jumping through hurdles at anyone who dare criticizes Michael or his contemporary. lol

Never read these dudes posts prior to the meme but after you brought this up it's hilariously noticeable now :lol'

[LostCause]

Precisely :oldlol:



edit: oh look Lost Cause/Phoenix sprinting in hand n hand again :roll:



https://i.postimg.cc/pXDPXHSL/3xf1j9.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

You morons FLOODED the forum with Jordan threads then act surprised when folks respond

How about this. Make a non-MJ or LeBron related thread that warrants real discussion. I don’t want to short-circuit you with this request, just want to see if it’s possible lmao

[Docs Orders]

They really are in every MJ thread jumping through hurdles at anyone who dare criticizes Michael or his contemporary. lol

Never read these dudes posts prior to the meme but after you brought this up it's hilariously noticeable now :lol'

:lol

try and find a game thread they've ever been a part of on ISH


then go take a look at the "Last Dance" threads the past 72 hours and their minute by minute breakdown of 2 episodes


:yaohappy:

[LostCause]

How about this. Make a non-MJ or LeBron related thread that warrants real discussion. I don’t want to short-circuit you with this request, just want to see if it’s possible lmao

Didn't think so :oldlol: Request must've short-circuited him

https://i.imgur.com/7lso3WP.gif

[scuzzy]

:lol

try and find a game thread they've ever been a part of on ISH


then go take a look at the "Last Dance" threads the past 72 hours and their minute by minute breakdown of 2 episodes


:yaohappy:


Can't blame them, your typical 35-40yo ISH Jordan stan stopped watching hoops 20 years ago at the age of 8-12yo after the only marketable team in the league with talent split

Seeing this documentary is basically their Game 7 Finals

Reminds me of how hype I get for Mike Tyson documentaries. Can't even name a single IFB heavyweight today but get all giddy reminiscing good ol' Iron Mike KO's from my pre-puberty days in 4th grade. Yeah lots 2006 accounts with 120 posts and Bulls avy's have come out of hibernation the past few days. Predictable

[LostCause]

then go take a look at the "Last Dance" threads the past 72 hours and their minute by minute breakdown of 2 episodes

https://i.ibb.co/gR5fK4s/260927-2.png
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=476510

"Minute by minute" breakdowns doe

https://i.giphy.com/media/L8XuphFGqlSfe/giphy.webp

Unfortunately I have to travel and I don't think you morons will outdo yourselves anyway. I'll be back tomorrow

[Manny98]

Let’s be honest. EVERYONE who knows basketball cares what KD says about basketball

The problem you have is no one cares what Manny says

Your understanding of the game is pretty low. No ones gonna dismiss KD, who studies the game and speaks on it well, in favor of Manny98.

You morons really overvalue your trolling opinions. Lmao
KD was 5 years old when MJ played that's why it's irrelevant :oldlol:

[Monta Ellis MVP]

KD was 5 years old when MJ played that's why it's irrelevant :oldlol:
What year were you born in? I was born in 1999 but I still think LeBron is better. KD thinks he knows but he doesn’t know. We know.

[Phoenix]

:lol

try and find a game thread they've ever been a part of on ISH


then go take a look at the "Last Dance" threads the past 72 hours and their minute by minute breakdown of 2 episodes


:yaohappy:

oh look, Kblaze flushed but a few little nuggets didnt go down with the rest of the shit. I have plenty of posts here that have nothing to do with MJ. I have NEVER seen you post in anything but MJ/Bron threads. And if you've posted elsewhere its nothing relevant enough for me to remember. Meanwhile you wagging your tongue at every post I make. So who the fukk are you trying to call out?! :oldlol:

[Phoenix]

:lol

try and find a game thread they've ever been a part of on ISH


then go take a look at the "Last Dance" threads the past 72 hours and their minute by minute breakdown of 2 episodes


:yaohappy:

364 posts in that thread as of now. I have 5 of them. 'Minute by minute breakdown'. Thanks for your continued support you autistic c*nt.:cheers:

[Manny98]

Precisely :oldlol:



edit: oh look Lost Cause/Phoenix sprinting in hand n hand again :roll:



https://i.postimg.cc/pXDPXHSL/3xf1j9.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

This meme can't be more true

Once in a blue moon you'll see those two post something that's not MJ related :oldlol:

[Manny98]

Let’s be honest. EVERYONE who knows basketball cares what KD says about basketball

The problem you have is no one cares what Manny says

Your understanding of the game is pretty low. No ones gonna dismiss KD, who studies the game and speaks on it well, in favor of Manny98.

You morons really overvalue your trolling opinions. Lmao

It's a fact that Jordan is not a top shooter of all time, get over it babyboi

KD probably thinks MJ shot 40% from the 3 point line because all he has to go on are YouTube highlights and the media hyping him up as some god

[Phoenix]

This meme can't be more true

Once in a blue moon you'll see those two post something that's not MJ related :oldlol:

And you post in bball threads that dont concern Lebron or MJ? :roll::roll:

You're so consensus considered a retard here that an entire thread was dedicated to banning you. Another shit stain that didnt go down when Kblaze flushed earlier.

[Manny98]

And you post in bball threads that dont concern Lebron or MJ? :roll::roll:

You're so consensus considered a retard here that an entire thread was dedicated to banning you. Another shit stain that didnt go down when Kblaze flushed earlier.

I have made more Nets game threads this season than you have made posts not talking about MJ or 90s ball :facepalm

[Phoenix]

I have made more Nets game threads this season than you have made posts not talking about MJ or 90s ball :facepalm

Not likely. You wouldnt have a clue of where I post non MJ content because unless the topic is MJ or Lebron you have no reason to enter the thread.

[Docs Orders]

This meme can't be more true

Once in a blue moon you'll see those two post something that's not MJ related :oldlol:

Unprecedented lack of self awareness :oldlol:

Even funnier is seeing that man baby Phoenix scowl and weep daily over mods not banning trolls

Tantrum after tantrum, diaper after diaper, all while simultaneously never lifting a finger in the daily dozens 3ball threads, etc, etc. Grown child crying wolf gimmick, on anonymous message board. Really disturbing. Still really entertaining to poke fun at

[Phoenix]

Unprecedented lack of self awareness :oldlol:

Even funnier is seeing that man baby Phoenix scowl and weep daily over mods not banning trolls

Tantrum after tantrum while simultaneously never lifting a finger in the daily dozens 3ball threads, etc, etc. Grown child crying wolf gimmick, on anonymous message board. Really disturbing.

Switched over from your Lamebruh account? You're the only two accounts referencing what and where I post, as if I cant look at your post history and see that your last 20 posts have all been in Jordan/Lebron themed threads. Go run in a minefield jackass.

[Axe]

https://media.giphy.com/media/pUeXcg80cO8I8/giphy.gif

[Docs Orders]

hah

2min reply, fuming on edge.

poor dude has been staring at his monitor smashing refresh button for 72 hours shaking nervous how Jordans Doc is portrayed

huffing and puffing 3ball and Welfareman got banned and not the Lebron trolls he's been reporting for weeks! :mad: :cry:







































https://media.giphy.com/media/JNyiFeUy8eRYF8KK66/giphy.gif

[StrongLurk]

You could argue MJ is the greatest two point shooter ever. Certainly the best scorer ever.

[Axe]

You could argue MJ is the greatest two point shooter ever. Certainly the best scorer ever.
Until someone brings up 6,911. 🥴

[Phoenix]

Bitch lashing out like his tampon stuck up his vag. Crying cause his wittle buddies got banned and thinks somehow I have any sort of control over that. :lol

[LAmbruh]

https://media.giphy.com/media/JNyiFeUy8eRYF8KK66/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/Riz5vozHmQrd3uZhEN/giphy.gif

[Phoenix]

https://media.giphy.com/media/Riz5vozHmQrd3uZhEN/giphy.gif

https://i.postimg.cc/yNbbnBZY/59-B89198-5-B64-48-A6-A7-AE-CBF9703997-BB.jpg

[Docs Orders]

https://media.giphy.com/media/Riz5vozHmQrd3uZhEN/giphy.gif

:roll::oldlol:



























https://media.giphy.com/media/RibUwOAzOoGmcDQZjb/giphy.gif

[LostCause]

KD was 5 years old when MJ played that's why it's irrelevant :oldlol:

You're basically saying that unless you were old enough to know the game and watch them play, your opinion on past players is irrelevant. Which invalidates your own opinion, moron

Do you bron stans even attempt to use your brains? Are y'all like actual retards?


I get some of you are deficient in critical thinking but here’s a simple enough breakdown

Durant is a pretty intelligent student of the game. Similar to LeBron. There’s no ulterior motive or any association for him to affect his analysis of Jordan’s game. He’s an objective source

You don’t even actually have a criticism of why Durants words shouldn’t hold value. Trying to dismiss them because.... he was a kid when Jordan was in his prime basically dismisses yourself and most people below 40 from being able to analyze Jordan. That’s obviously a dumb take but again.... you guys don’t have much in the way of critical thinking

But carry on

You did exactly that and made yourself look even dumber somehow lmao. Christ.... That's an accomplishment
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's a fact that Jordan is not a top shooter of all time, get over it babyboi

KD probably thinks MJ shot 40% from the 3 point line because all he has to go on are YouTube highlights and the media hyping him up as some god

He breaks down exactly why he says what he says so wrong again. Regardless, KD is a much more knowledgeable and respected source of basketball knowledge than you though. No question about it.

As I showed above, your dumbass invalidated your OWN opinion. You're definitely missing a few critical brain cells but sure, let's take Manny's word over KD's when it comes to breaking down basketball

[SATAN]

Found KD's account

[HoopsNY]

I haven't read through every post, but MJ is not the best shooter of all time, not even close.

Reggie Miller
Dirk Nowitzki
Larry Bird
Ray Allen
Stephen Curry
Jeff Hornacek

All of these guys come to mind. Now Mj was a solid mid-range shooter and a very good free throw shooter, but he wasn't the elite amongst jump shooters.

[SATAN]

I haven't read through every post, but MJ is not the best shooter of all time, not even close.

Reggie Miller
Dirk Nowitzki
Larry Bird
Ray Allen
Stephen Curry
Jeff Hornacek

All of these guys come to mind. Now Mj was a solid mid-range shooter and a very good free throw shooter, but he wasn't the elite amongst jump shooters.


You can't convince blind Nike and MJ fans who've never played a game in their life, man. They just buy into the hype. They come to this forum for fashion tips.

[Manny98]

You're basically saying that unless you were old enough to know the game and watch them play, your opinion on past players is irrelevant. Which invalidates your own opinion, moron

Do you bron stans even attempt to use your brains? Are y'all like actual retards?



You did exactly that and made yourself look even dumber somehow lmao. Christ.... That's an accomplishment
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


He breaks down exactly why he says what he says so wrong again. Regardless, KD is a much more knowledgeable and respected source of basketball knowledge than you though. No question about it.

As I showed above, your dumbass invalidated your OWN opinion. You're definitely missing a few critical brain cells but sure, let's take Manny's word over KD's when it comes to breaking down basketball

Career 28% 3 point shooter

Never shot 90% from the line the easiest shot in basketball

https://media.giphy.com/media/p0RDMJGgMXF96/giphy.gif

[Bronbron23]

Until someone brings up 6,911. 🥴

Scoring average is the better measure as to whos a better scorer. Using bron stans measure of totals is a joke. That means tony parker was a better scorer than Hakeem, magic, bird, dirk, pip, wade, wilt, robinson, pierce, dr j, miller, drexler, barkley, and a bunch of other players that were better scorers.

[sportjames23]

Career 28% 3 point shooter

Never shot 90% from the line the easiest shot in basketball

https://media.giphy.com/media/p0RDMJGgMXF96/giphy.gif

This kid is melting down in real time. :oldlol:

Tell us, Manny, what's Lebron's career FT % compared to MJ's? Hold up, I'll let Sports Illustrated tell the tale:


https://www.si.com/nba/2016/05/17/lebron-james-cavaliers-heat-ray-allen-free-throw-line-nba-playoffs

[Axe]

Scoring average is the better measure as to whos a better scorer. Using bron stans measure of totals is a joke. That means tony parker was a better scorer than Hakeem, magic, bird, dirk, pip, wade, wilt, robinson, pierce, dr j, miller, drexler, barkley, and a bunch of other players that were better scorers.
Ikr

[Manny98]

Buh but LeBron:cry:
Typical Jordan Stan defense mechanism is to attack LeBron :lol

Jordan isn't even in the same stratosphere as the Currys and Ray Allen's of the world when it comes to shooting, face it

He's still a top 2 player of all time I give him that but when it comes to shooting, he's not even top 20

[sportjames23]

Typical Jordan Stan defense mechanism is to attack LeBron :lol

Jordan isn't even in the same stratosphere as the Currys and Ray Allen's of the world when it comes to shooting, face it

He's still a top 2 player of all time I give him that but when it comes to shooting, he's not even top 20

Got this boy STEAMING mad. :oldlol:

[red1]

manny is an idiot.

[red1]

https://media.giphy.com/media/Riz5vozHmQrd3uZhEN/giphy.gif


https://media.giphy.com/media/RibUwOAzOoGmcDQZjb/giphy.gif

:oldlol:

[Manny98]

manny is an idiot.
Here's the attention that you wanted doggy

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AbleVariableBichonfrise-size_restricted.gif

[red1]

Here's the attention that you wanted doggy

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AbleVariableBichonfrise-size_restricted.gif

I dont mind playing a fatherly role. just make sure you work on your IQ.


you're really lacking in that department right now, even for a 15 year old.

[Bronbron23]

Typical Jordan Stan defense mechanism is to attack LeBron :lol

Jordan isn't even in the same stratosphere as the Currys and Ray Allen's of the world when it comes to shooting, face it

He's still a top 2 player of all time I give him that but when it comes to shooting, he's not even top 20

Problem is your thinking in terms of shooting in general. Yeah if it were a shooting contest mj wouldn't even be in the top 100 let alone top 20. In terms of in game though mj is easily one of tge greatest jump shooters. His combination of size athleticism, skill and intelligence allows him to be able to get good looks more easily and consistently then both ray and curry.

Its like saying gerald green is a better dunker than mj. It all depends on how you look at it. Green is a better dunker in general with no defence in a contest or something. Because of the the same attributes mentioned above though Mj is a much better dunker in games.

[HoopsNY]

Problem is your thinking in terms of shooting in general. Yeah if it were a shooting contest mj wouldn't even be in the top 100 let alone top 20. In terms of in game though mj is easily one of tge greatest jump shooters. His combination of size athleticism, skill and intelligence allows him to be able to get good looks more easily and consistently then both ray and curry.

Its like saying gerald green is a better dunker than mj. It all depends on how you look at it. Green is a better dunker in general with no defence in a contest or something. Because of the the same attributes mentioned above though Mj is a much better dunker in games.

Shot selection and actual shooting are two different things, though. For one, MJ was about an 84% fth shooter for his career and a 33% three point shooter. You can't ignore those facts since free throws are uncontested and three pointers in the 80s and 90s mostly came with an open look. Players rarely took them. I love MJ but he was not the best shooter, period.

[Manny98]

I dont mind playing a fatherly role. just make sure you work on your IQ.


you're really lacking in that department right now, even for a 15 year old.
142 in a certified IQ test babyboi

Probably the smartest person on this entire forum

[LostCause]

142 in a certified IQ test babyboi

Probably the smartest person on this entire forum

https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

[RRR3]

42 in a certified IQ test babyboi
Fixed

[Manny98]

https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif
Df are you laughing at, you literally think a career 28% 3 point shooter deserves to be in the conversation for greatest shooter of all time :facepalm

[red1]

Fixed

https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

[LostCause]

Df are you laughing at, you literally think a career 28% 3 point shooter deserves to be in the conversation for greatest shooter of all time :facepalm

Lmao

I never made that claim. That post was comedy though :oldlol:

[Bronbron23]

Shot selection and actual shooting are two different things, though. For one, MJ was about an 84% fth shooter for his career and a 33% three point shooter. You can't ignore those facts since free throws are uncontested and three pointers in the 80s and 90s mostly came with an open look. Players rarely took them. I love MJ but he was not the best shooter, period.

Thats fair but shooting is more than just 3's and fou shooting. Its mid range and the post also. As good as steph and ray are from the three and ft mj is that good in the other areas so it kind of evens out. Then when u factor in how much more unstoppable mj's jumpshot is compared to those guys thats another thing.

Put it this way. If you had to pick anyone to hit a jump shot against a good defense almost nobody is taking steph and ray over mj. Why is that?

[HoopsNY]

That's a good question. I'm not really sure. Mike's clutch stats favor him so if it boiled down a final shot then obviously he gets the nod over anyone else. But just on pure shooting, then there are a number of guys over him.

[Axe]

Typical Jordan Stan defense mechanism is to attack LeBron :lol

Jordan isn't even in the same stratosphere as the Currys and Ray Allen's of the world when it comes to shooting, face it

He's still a top 2 player of all time I give him that but when it comes to shooting, he's not even top 20
Duh.

Those two actually became renowned perennial 3-point shooters during sometime of their career.

Also, put your tampon on and stop being hysterical if you'd please. Thank you.

[jstern]

Shot selection and actual shooting are two different things, though. For one, MJ was about an 84% fth shooter for his career and a 33% three point shooter. You can't ignore those facts since free throws are uncontested and three pointers in the 80s and 90s mostly came with an open look. Players rarely took them. I love MJ but he was not the best shooter, period.

What are you really basing that on? Actual data or just trying to make a logical assumption? If you look at Jordan 3 point compilations from the 80s you'll notice that a good portion of them were to beat the shot clock, heavily contested, including lots of half court 3 pointers. This is from a guy who was taking like 70 per season. More contested than the average Curry 3 pointers. And no I'm not saying that he's a better 3 point shooter than Curry.

Just watching a few minutes of this video, not counting the Portland series, you can obviously see that he was not taking open 3 pointers the way you're assuming https://youtu.be/AJzbrBUFB4Y?t=93

[HoopsNY]

What are you really basing that on? Actual data or just trying to make a logical assumption? If you look at Jordan 3 point compilations from the 80s you'll notice that a good portion of them were to beat the shot clock, heavily contested, including lots of half court 3 pointers. This is from a guy who was taking like 70 per season. More contested than the average Curry 3 pointers. And no I'm not saying that he's a better 3 point shooter than Curry.

Just watching a few minutes of this video, not counting the Portland series, you can obviously see that he was not taking open 3 pointers the way you're assuming https://youtu.be/AJzbrBUFB4Y?t=93

True. As someone who does pride himself in data, I only have the eye-test to back that up. But you're right, I'd have to look into it.

[FireDavidKahn]

Of course 3ball titles the thread something other then what was actually said.

It specifically said the greatest mid range shooter of the mid 90's...not the greatest shooter of all-time:facepalm


In this episode of Signature Shots, ESPN analyst Kirk Goldsberry details how Michael Jordan developed from an inconsistent jump-shooter at North Carolina into the most efficient and most prolific midrange scorer of the mid-90s

[Bronbron23]

That's a good question. I'm not really sure. Mike's clutch stats favor him so if it boiled down a final shot then obviously he gets the nod over anyone else. But just on pure shooting, then there are a number of guys over him.

Yeah id agree that theres better pure shooters. I guess i just look at having the greatest jump shot and being a better pure shooter a little different where some on here consider it the same thing.

I think 2 things can be true here. I think mj can have the greatest jump shot but there are plenty of better pure shooters.

[3ball]

Curry has nice step-backs and other stationary dribble moves, but he isn't the goat jumpshooter because he lacks great ability to pull-up off a hard dribble (shown here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzbrBUFB4Y&t=10m26s) and here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzbrBUFB4Y&t=11m00s)), which overcomes greater contests and requires elevating/shooting in a way that Curry and all of today's 3-point shooters lack great ability to do.

This is why Michael Jordan, the goat jumpshooter off a hard dribble of all-time (goat elevation, square-up and form), would be the goat 3-point shooter in today's game - he would be shooting contested pull-up threes off a hard dribble as a standard, just like he did 2-pointers, which would make him the standard of 3-point shooting - his "fadeaway" is already the standard of jumpshooting skill and he would do this from 3-point range in today's era

[8Ball]

Jordan is a garbage 3 point shooter.

Worst than Westbrook.

[3ball]

Jordan is a garbage 3 point shooter.

Worst than Westbrook.


Curry isn't elite at the most basic jumpshooting skills - pulling up off a hard dribble and converting contested jumpers - so he's an inferior jumpshooter to Jordan

[Manny98]

Curry isn't elite at the most basic jumpshooting skills - pulling up off a hard dribble and converting contested jumpers - so he's an inferior jumpshooter to Jordan
Couldn't hit 40% from 3 or 90% from the line his entire career and he's the GOAT jumpshooter?

Don't make me laugh

[8Ball]

Jordan is a garbage 3 point shooter.

Worst than Westbrook.

This fact is considered settled debate. There is nothing more to discuss.

[Gohan]

jordan is a better midrange shooter and curry is a better shooter period form all over the court. i have no problem with you 3ball like some other posters but you are lying to yourself acting liike curry isnt taking and making tough as shots.

[3ball]

jordan is a better midrange shooter and curry is a better shooter period form all over the court. i have no problem with you 3ball like some other posters but you are lying to yourself acting liike curry isnt taking and making tough as shots.


80% of Curry's threes are "uncontested" according to NBA.com

And he barely takes any mid-range shots - mostly open ones; he isn't Dirk

Curry is just a 3-point shooter - that's it - he's mastered stand-still threes and plays in the perfect era for his technique to thrive (threes are more of a technique, not basketball)

He infact isn't good at taking jumpers off a hard dribble (shown here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzbrBUFB4Y&t=10m26s) and here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzbrBUFB4Y&t=11m00s)) - that alone precludes him from being the goat jumpshooter

[Axe]

Op is truly desperate in terms of bumping his trash ass threads.

[Smoke117]

lol Well since you consider ESPN to be garbage he is clearly not the greatest jumpshooter of all time.

[light]

MJ was great at a bad shot in a weak era.