Replace Mo Williams with Prime Scottie Pippen in 2009 and 2010??

[Lebron23]

Do you think the Cleveland Cavaliers wins the nba championship???

[Roundball_Rock]

Easily in both years.

[LostCause]

Well it depends. After going up 2-1 on Boston in 2010, LeBron averaged 21 on 34% shooting with 6 turnovers per game over the next 3 games and lost the series. He fell apart offensively. If you think Pippens presence is enough to offset that despite the redundancy in their games (LBJ/Pip) and no triangle offense... Maybe they beat Boston, but then they'd still lose to LA anyway most likely

09 they might beat Orlando but I still don't know if they'd get past the Lakers. There's no Shaq in 09 so Gasol/Bynum would be feasting

[FromDowntown]

100%

Also 96 Sonics, swap Payton for Marcus Smart, Seattle might win it

[ArbitraryWater]

I'm honeestly not sure they lose more than 1 game a series.

2 clear as daylight titles.

[LAmbruh]

Easily in both years.

This

[RRR3]

For sure if they used LeBron or Pippen as a small ball 4. Back in 2009 and 2010, that would have been really hard to deal with.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Not a big fan of that duo offensively. A bit redundant. Prime Pippen would've been a nightmare on defense though.

And a clear OBVIOUS upgrade over Mo Williams lol

Yeah...they'd win both chips.

[Roundball_Rock]

Well it depends. After going up 2-1 on Boston in 2010, LeBron averaged 21 on 34% shooting with 6 turnovers per game over the next 3 games and lost the series. He fell apart offensively. If you think Pippens presence is enough to offset that despite the redundancy in their games (LBJ/Pip)

You don't think having a player of Pippen's caliber instead of Mo Williams wouldn't relieve LeBron of a lot of defensive pressure? LeBron would still be the focal point of defenses but they would have another threat to worry about, which they didn't with Mo Williams.

The duplication in their games is more of a potential issue but we know Pippen played with a player who was similar offensively (e.g., a point forward) in Kukoc with no problem. We haven't seen it with LeBron, the closest would be Wade.

[dbugz]

Pippen leading the Cavs? and LeQuit as the 2nd fiddle?

Maybe.

[3ball]

You don't think having a player of Pippen's caliber instead of Mo Williams wouldn't relieve LeBron of a lot of defensive pressure? LeBron would still be the focal point of defenses but they would have another threat to worry about, which they didn't with Mo Williams.

The duplication in their games is more of a potential issue but we know Pippen played with a player who was similar offensively (e.g., a point forward) in Kukoc with no problem. We haven't seen it with LeBron, the closest would be Wade.
Nonsense because Lebron was already taking a break defensively by guarding Courtney Lee instead of Hedo or Rashard Lewis.. he didn't guard hos normal forward matchup and took a break by guarding a lesser player

[LostCause]

You don't think having a player of Pippen's caliber instead of Mo Williams wouldn't relieve LeBron of a lot of defensive pressure? LeBron would still be the focal point of defenses but they would have another threat to worry about, which they didn't with Mo Williams.

The duplication in their games is more of a potential issue but we know Pippen played with a player who was similar offensively (e.g., a point forward) in Kukoc with no problem. We haven't seen it with LeBron, the closest would be Wade.

To be fair, Shaq was actually decent that series for Cleveland. He was horrible the first 2 games against Boston but went on to average 16 on 60% shooting in the remaining 4 games. Mo Will averaged 15 on 40% during the last 3 games they lost, but was shooting 36% from 3. Anthony Parker was putting up 10 on 46% from 3 in those 3 games (He was at 8 on 52% for the series)

I think that's where the issue with bringing in Pippen would show. Kukoc was an excellent shooter. Pippen not so much (Not to mention the triangle made it easier to avoid redundancy). That Cavs team had maybe 2 shooters to space the floor for LeBron and Williams was one of them (Parker the other). I do think Pippen would overall help the team be better, his defense was amazing. I just don't know if it's enough to beat Boston that year. That team was pretty good defensively that year with an engaged Rondo, KG, Tony Allen etc. Pips efficiency would've been pretty bad against them as it usually was against strong defenses

2009 it would've made a much bigger difference against Orlando seeing as Hedo and Lewis went off and Pip could've helped contain them, but the problem against Orlando was nobody could do anything with Dwight (Orlando had 2 players near a TS% of 70. Dwight and Pietrus). So Pippen probably could've helped tilt it in the favor of Cleveland by neutralizing the role players but even then I dont see them beating LA in the Finals even with Pippen. For all the damage Dwight did against Cleveland he was slowed down significantly against LA's bigs and the Lakers were pretty deep (5 players averaging double figures)

[Manny98]

LeBron & Pippen on the same team would literally never lose

[LostCause]

LeBron & Pippen on the same team would literally never lose

But he lost with a superior player named Dwyane Wade in 2011 :lol

[Nowoco]

No chance Pippen could carry a quitting, mentally weak LeBron in 2009 or 2010. Pippen needed an alpha to succeed and LBJ was not that as we saw in the Celtics series.

[Bronbron23]

No guarantee. Lebron is probably the best ever pulling bums to playoff run. With talent though hes not even a top 5. Hes lost to many times with the better team.

[RogueBorg]

4th quarter, game 7, Cavs down by 1, who's taking the last shot?

LePasser or Mr 1.8?

[3ball]

Lebron is probably the best ever pulling bums to playoff run.



So why did he have 3 different 30-40 win teams, just like Jordan?

Lebron's achievements are misperceived... For example, DeRozan was winning 50 and 60 every year with Lowry - if Lowry was Lebron's sidekick, it would be called a carry-job and worshipped...

You simply didn't need a good cast in the East like you do in the West, yet people continue to overrate lebron's "carrying" ability in a weak East.. it's easy to forget that lebron's Finals streak didn't begin until formed a strong team in a conference that weak teams were rountinely winning (Dwight, AI, Kidd, etc)

Ultimately, lebron missed the playoffs with the East all-star center in 05', and needed to add a 20-point all-defender and the future COY to make it in 06' - having 2 all-star caliber teammates and better coaching gave him a cast that compared well to the conference, so he always had high seeds every year - he infact never carried bums to 50 or 60 wins - he always had decorated casts that compared to his conference peers

[ArbitraryWater]

Not a big fan of that duo offensively. A bit redundant. Prime Pippen would've been a nightmare on defense though.

And a clear OBVIOUS upgrade over Mo Williams lol

Yeah...they'd win both chips.


How many games do they lose? I don't see more than one against ORL/BOS, MAYBE 2 against LAL if Gasol/Bynum healthy go for 25 one game.

[ArbitraryWater]

No guarantee. Lebron is probably the best ever pulling bums to playoff run. With talent though hes not even a top 5. Hes lost to many times with the better team.

Like when, outside of 2011?

[3ball]

Not a big fan of that duo offensively. A bit redundant. Prime Pippen would've been a nightmare on defense though.

And a clear OBVIOUS upgrade over Mo Williams lol

Yeah...they'd win both chips.
^^^ that's the kind of shallow group-think that caused you to be wrong about Ingram

Embarrassingly wrong

You saw what Lebron's skillset did to Ingram, Hughes, Jamison, Crowder, Rose, Bosh, and Hood - what makes you think he'd win freiking championships with 91' Pippen? Why didn't he win it with Ingram last year - he was barely.500 with Ingram!! (28-27)

If Pippen played for the 09' and 10' Cavs - you'd lose your ass betting on the Cavs... Lebron and Pip fit together like oil and water - weak-shooting, ball-handlers are the WORST fit for Bron..

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

^^^ that's the kind of shallow group-think that caused you to be wrong about Ingram

Embarrassingly wrong

You saw what Lebron's skillset did to Ingram, Hughes, Jamison, Crowder, Rose, Bosh, and Hood - what makes you think he'd win freiking championships with 91' Pippen? Why didn't he win it with Ingram last year - he was barely.500 with Ingram!! (28-27)

If Pippen played for the 09' and 10' Cavs - you'd lose your ass betting on the Cavs... Lebron and Pip fit together like oil and water - weak-shooting, ball-handlers are the WORST fit for Bron..

Don't quote me with Jordan's dikk in your mouth.

And what about Ingram? I never brought him up.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How many games do they lose? I don't see more than one against ORL/BOS, MAYBE 2 against LAL if Gasol/Bynum healthy go for 25 one game.

Their toughest series would be against LA. Because of their moxie, intelligence and tall timber (AB/Pau). Not gonna guarantee both rings, but I do lean that way. Think both series would be 6-7 games. Yeah Pippen and Lebron don't give you a lot of shooting, but Mo was grabage in the playoffs. I'll take being repetitive with better talent anyday. Pip could still create his own shot and had a decent midrange game.

[3ball]

Their toughest series would be against LA. Because of their moxie, intelligence and tall timber (AB/Pau). Not gonna guarantee both rings, but I do lean that way. Think both series would be 6-7 games. Yeah Pippen and Lebron don't give you a lot of shooting, but Mo was grabage in the playoffs. I'll take being repetitive with better talent anyday.

Pip could still create his own shot and had a decent midrange game.
Ingram can create his own shot and shoots much better than Pippen, yet Lebron sucked with him

And since everyone knew Ingram would explode this year, why didn't lebron keep him and win a ring with him?... Oh wait... Lebron infact COULDN'T play with him and didn't care that he was headed for stardom

Yet you think he'd win with Pippen and Zydrunas against Pau and Odom... It's f*cking impossible - both lebron and Pippen need closers - it would be a disaster

The constant narrative is that lebron "needs" shooters... Lebron simply doesn't fit with weak-shooting, ball-handlers... So he wouldn't fit with Pippen

So you're results oriented and give zero consideration to fit... And aside from fit, when did lebron win without an equal-scoring teammate or someone that can score within 5 points of him??... Lebron needs a much better scorer than Pippen to win.. . what's lebron gonna do when Pippen has one of his 15 on 33% series

[SouBeachTalents]

Ingram can create his own shot and shoots much better than Pippen, yet Lebron sucked with him

And since everyone knew Ingram would explode this year, why didn't lebron keep him and win a ring with him?... Oh wait... Lebron infact COULDN'T play with him and didn't care that he was headed for stardom

Yet you think he'd win with Pippen and Zydrunas against Pau and Odom... It's f*cking impossible - both lebron and Pippen need closers - it would be a disaster

The constant narrative is that lebron "needs" shooters... Lebron simply doesn't fit with weak-shooting, ball-handlers... So he wouldn't fit with Pippen

So you're results oriented and give zero consideration to fit... And aside from fit, when did lebron win without an equal-scoring teammate or someone that can score within 5 points of him??... Lebron needs a much better scorer than Pippen to win.. . what's lebron gonna do when Pippen has one of his 15 on 33% series
LeBron won with Wade averaging 16 ppg in the playoffs

[Bankaii]

No guarantee. Lebron is probably the best ever pulling bums to playoff run. With talent though hes not even a top 5. Hes lost to many times with the better team.
Such a lame gimmick.

[red1]

they would still get decimated by other teams frontcourts. pippen would obviously help massively but he wouldnt fix their defensive problems at frontcourt.


pippen and rodman for mo and varejao and then we'd be talking (FYI 3ball thinks this is an even trade - he argues that mo will = pippen and varejao = rodman "same type of player really").


holy shit that defense - they'd hold teams to 80 points every night. delonte would slide over to pointguard where he was a great defender. could defend shooting guards too.

[3ball]

LeBron won with Wade averaging 16 ppg in the playoffs
Not true - he won a weak East with 2 star teammates and didn't need a lot of offense from either

Against real comp in the Finals, he needed prime Pippen stats from Wade to win (20/5/5 on 48%).. he's never won the Finals with one of Pippen's stinkers (15 on 34% or 41%), or without a 3rd star like Bosh sacrificing his game

And Wade is a closer - both lebron and Pippen need closers and shooters, so they'd be a disaster for each other... :facepalm:

[Overdrive]

Ingram can create his own shot and shoots much better than Pippen, yet Lebron sucked with him

And since everyone knew Ingram would explode this year, why didn't lebron keep him and win a ring with him?... Oh wait... Lebron infact COULDN'T play with him and didn't care that he was headed for stardom

Yet you think he'd win with Pippen and Zydrunas against Pau and Odom... It's f*cking impossible - both lebron and Pippen need closers - it would be a disaster

The constant narrative is that lebron "needs" shooters... Lebron simply doesn't fit with weak-shooting, ball-handlers... So he wouldn't fit with Pippen

So you're results oriented and give zero consideration to fit... And aside from fit, when did lebron win without an equal-scoring teammate or someone that can score within 5 points of him??... Lebron needs a much better scorer than Pippen to win.. . what's lebron gonna do when Pippen has one of his 15 on 33% series

You're always crying about this inflated stats era yet here you are comparing Ingram to Pippen because of stats.


Their toughest series would be against LA. Because of their moxie, intelligence and tall timber (AB/Pau). Not gonna guarantee both rings, but I do lean that way. Think both series would be 6-7 games. Yeah Pippen and Lebron don't give you a lot of shooting, but Mo was grabage in the playoffs. I'll take being repetitive with better talent anyday. Pip could still create his own shot and had a decent midrange game.

I don't think the Cavs win either series. Of course Pippen would be a huge upgrade, bit he doesn't take away the Cavs biggest problem. A second reliable scorer Lebron can pass the ball to. Yeah, Pippen could create, but he isn't what Lebron needed. He needed a guy who can create, but also spot up when Lebron creates. Kyrie was perfect and I think if you exchange Mo or Pippen for '16-'17 Kyrie the Cavs win easily even when Kyrie's the lesser player than Pippen.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Ingram can create his own shot and shoots much better than Pippen, yet Lebron sucked with him

And since everyone knew Ingram would explode this year, why didn't lebron keep him and win a ring with him?... Oh wait... Lebron infact COULDN'T play with him and didn't care that he was headed for stardom

Yet you think he'd win with Pippen and Zydrunas against Pau and Odom... It's f*cking impossible - both lebron and Pippen need closers - it would be a disaster

The constant narrative is that lebron "needs" shooters... Lebron simply doesn't fit with weak-shooting, ball-handlers... So he wouldn't fit with Pippen

So you're results oriented and give zero consideration to fit... And aside from fit, when did lebron win without an equal-scoring teammate or someone that can score within 5 points of him??... Lebron needs a much better scorer than Pippen to win.. . what's lebron gonna do when Pippen has one of his 15 on 33% series

This is clown-like analysis.

LA didn't win a ring because they were a young ass team, Lebron missed a ton of games AND everyone knew the management/Lebron wanted AD.

I'm talking about a Prime Pippen replacing Mo Williams, and you're bringing up Ingram. Stay on topic and quit changing the subject. Pippen is a clear upgrade over Mo regardless of fit.

[IllegalD]

Do you think the Cleveland Cavaliers wins the nba championship???


Damn. This Last Dance documentary is only 2 episodes in and it has all the Bronsexuals having massive meltdowns.

:lol:banana::lebroncry:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You're always crying about this inflated stats era yet here you are comparing Ingram to Pippen because of stats.



I don't think the Cavs win either series. Of course Pippen would be a huge upgrade, bit he doesn't take away the Cavs biggest problem. A second reliable scorer Lebron can pass the ball to. Yeah, Pippen could create, but he isn't what Lebron needed. He needed a guy who can create, but also spot up when Lebron creates. Kyrie was perfect and I think if you exchange Mo or Pippen for '16-'17 Kyrie the Cavs win easily even when Kyrie's the lesser player than Pippen.

Yeah like I said, I'm not guaranteeing anything. Wouldn't surprise me at all if LA happened to 1 or both series. I think with Pippen, the Cavs would have a legit shot.

Its not what Lebron "needs" but what the topic is about. I'll give you the Kyrie mention though. He and Lebron were a great offensive tandem.

[Roundball_Rock]

This is clown-like analysis.

LA didn't win a ring because they were a young ass team, Lebron missed a ton of games AND everyone knew the management/Lebron wanted AD.

I'm talking about a Prime Pippen replacing Mo Williams, and you're bringing up Ingram. Stay on topic and quit changing the subject. Pippen is a clear upgrade over Mo regardless of fit.

He probably thinks Mo Williams is the upgrade :oldlol:.

[3ball]

This is clown-like analysis.

LA didn't win a ring because they were a young ass team, Lebron missed a ton of games AND everyone knew the management/Lebron wanted AD.

I'm talking about a Prime Pippen replacing Mo Williams, and you're bringing up Ingram. Stay on topic and quit changing the subject. Pippen is a clear upgrade over Mo regardless of fit.
In case you didn't know, when investors are assessing the value of a building or company, they use "comps" or comparable assets to guage the value

Ingram is a "comp" to Pippen and a very good one... Hughes was also a good comp... Jamison or Bosh aren't bad comps either

So it isn't a clown analysis.. it's quite sound and uses best practices of valuation

Ultimately, both Lebron and Pippen need shooters and closers, so they'd be horrible for each other... it would immediately be a disaster.. Pippen needed the goat scorer to win, not a better version of himself, and lebron has only won with players that have an opposite profile to Pippen

[Roundball_Rock]

That's like saying Zach Lavine is a comp to MJ.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He probably thinks Mo Williams is the upgrade :oldlol:.

He's frightened to talk about Mo Williams, so brings up Ingram. Classic deflecting :oldlol:

[3ball]

He's frightened to talk about Mo Williams, so brings up Ingram. Classic deflecting :oldlol:

Why did the Cavs win 21 more games in 09' vs 08'

What changed?

And I bring up Ingram because he's a good comp for pip.. if lebron can't play with Ingram, why would he thrive and win rings with Pippen?.. it's ridiculous

Btw, why would I deflect on Mo? It's obvious prime Pippen was better but that doesn't mean lebron wins rings with him lol... Infact, I guarantee they don't win 66 games with Pippen's horrific spacing, nor would they have firepower like they appeared to have much of that year (because Mo led league in 3-pt makes per game)

[Overdrive]

Why did the Cavs win 21 more games in 09' vs 08'

What changed?

And I bring up Ingram because he's a good comp for pip.. if lebron can't play with Ingram, why would he thrive and win rings with Pippen?.. it's ridiculous

Btw, why would I deflect on Mo? It's obvious prime Pippen was better but that doesn't mean lebron wins rings with him lol... Infact, I guarantee they don't win 66 games with Pippen's horrific spacing, nor would they have firepower like they appeared to have much of that year (because Mo led league in 3-pt makes per game)

If Ingram is a good comp for Pippen then Lebron is Jordan or better. Can't have it both ways. Either you negate modern stats and go by team success - your anti Lebron argument - or you go by stats and negate the team success - your Ingram >= Pippen argument.

[Sarcastic]

Lebron needs someone that can hit the big shot for him, ie Ray Allen or Kyrie Irving. Pippen wouldn't be able to do that, and he certainly would be much less effective playing Lebron-ball sitting in the corner waiting for a pass.

Defensively they would be great, but not sure they would get past Boston or LA.

[AirBonner]

They win those chips easily. LeBron is 16-6 vs Kobe and that was with absolute shit supporting casts. Add Pippen? And it’s a wrap for the league. Ya’ll keep bringing up that LeBron would need a big game shooter. No. Not when you would be blowing out the competition.

[LeCroix]

We giving Bron a break on D for once? He wins 2009. 2010 mayyyybe.

[Vino24]

They win those chips easily. LeBron is 16-6 vs Kobe and that was with absolute shit supporting casts. Add Pippen? And it’s a wrap for the league. Ya’ll keep bringing up that LeBron would need a big game shooter. No. Not when you would be blowing out the competition.

Facts

[warriorfan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RalhjMudwhc&app=desktop

Let me know when Scottie Pippen drops 50+ in a game.

[3ball]

If Ingram is a good comp for Pippen then Lebron is Jordan or better. Can't have it both ways. Either you negate modern stats and go by team success - your anti Lebron argument - or you go by stats and negate the team success - your Ingram >= Pippen argument.
MJ beats lebron in modern stats because MJ is #1 in:

scoring (PPG)
efficiency rating (PER)
box scores (BPM)
winning contribution (WS/48)
5 of the top 7 VORP seasons


MJ destroys lebron in modern stats

So the Ingram/Pippen comp stands

And my anti-lebron argument is that MJ beats him in everything - stats, winning, skills and accolades

[Turbo Slayer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RalhjMudwhc&app=desktop

Let me know when Scottie Pippen drops 50+ in a game. Career highs (Points, Assists, et cetera) are not a good way of judging a player ability overall. It's flawed and lacks substantial evidence...

I have a good analogy.

Corey Brewer (role player) dropped a career high 50 points.

Victor Oladipo (star) dropped a career high 47 points.

By your assumption/logic you are basically telling me that Brewer is the better player. Am I right?

EDIT: Needed reasons.

[warriorfan]

Career highs (Points, Assists, et cetera) are not a good way of judging a player ability overall. It's flawed and lacks substantial evidence...

Mo Williams can create his own shot much better than Scottie Pippen which fits LeBron’s ball dominating “my turn, your turn” styled offense. LeBron has only won with having two other elite offensive players that are very skilled at creating their own shot (Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love).

[Vino24]

Mo Williams can create his own shot much better than Scottie Pippen which fits LeBron’s ball dominating “my turn, your turn” styled offense. LeBron has only won with having two other elite offensive players that are very skilled at creating their own shot (Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love).

MO Williams is not even close to SP (stimulus pippen)

[warriorfan]

MO Williams is not even close to SP (stimulus pippen)

It’s not about strictly talent it’s also about fit. More players work with Michael than LeBron. MJ’s game is simply more versatile, it’s why LeBron has had to have big 3’s with overloads in talent in order to win.

[Vino24]

It’s not about strictly talent it’s also about fit. More players work with Michael than LeBron. MJ’s game is simply more versatile, it’s why LeBron has had to have big 3’s with overloads in talent in order to win.
You mean only elite playmakers and dpoy candidates only worked with MJ. I wouldn’t consider that a large variety

[FromDowntown]

Wasnt 1994 Scottie #2 in MVP votes, all NBA 1st team, and won 55 games?

Let me know when Any other #2 option ever did that.

[Overdrive]

Wasnt 1994 Scottie #2 in MVP votes, all NBA 1st team, and won 55 games?

Let me know when Any other #2 option ever did that.

Name me one #2 option that won a FMVP without the later joining #1 option.

Scottie was #3 in MVP voting by a wide margin. Just like Melo some years ago.

[knicksman]

2 redundant players. No one can takeover games so theyre still an incomplete team. The reason why jordan or kobe are winners because it is easier to build around them coz they have the hardest skill to find. Once you have the hardest player to find in your team, the easier skills become easy. Lebron is a complimentary player not the main piece coz he doesnt have "the man" skills just like pippen so they are just really 2 redundant players. So yeah, still 2 Ls just like with mo.

[Overdrive]

MJ beats lebron in modern stats because MJ is #1 in:

scoring (PPG)
efficiency rating (PER)
box scores (BPM)
winning contribution (WS/48)
5 of the top 7 VORP seasons


MJ destroys lebron in modern stats

So the Ingram/Pippen comp stands

And my anti-lebron argument is that MJ beats him in everything - stats, winning, skills and accolades

I'm bot talking about advanced. You always act like the stats contemporary players put up are useless, becuse this era is watered down, while you compare Ingram to Pippen based on the raw stats he puts up rn. Ingram isn't half the player Pippen was.

[3ball]

I'm bot talking about advanced. You always act like the stats contemporary players put up are useless, becuse this era is watered down, while you compare Ingram to Pippen based on the raw stats he puts up rn. Ingram isn't half the player Pippen was.
Ingram has better raw offensive skill than Pippen ever did, but doesn't have a system.. Pippen was a 14 ppg player without the system (89' and 99')

Ultimately, guys like rookie Worthy were getting 22 on 64% in the 84' Finals - surely that would've beaten the Pistons in 89' and 90' instead of Pippen's 9 on 40%...

So if immediate-impact players like Worthy, Dominique or Derrick Coleman had played with MJ instead of Pippen, they would've been better than Pippen in HS, college, draft, and a 2-ring headstart as a young pro (89/90).. there's no way Pippen overcomes this to still be ranked higher all-time - he simply won the "play with MJ" lottery, so the winning spotlight inflated his weak production compared to his superior peers

[Vino24]

Ingram has better raw offensive skill than Pippen ever did, but doesn't have a system.. Pippen was a 14 ppg player without the system (89' and 99')

Ultimately, guys like rookie Worthy were getting 22 on 64% in the 84' Finals - surely that would've beaten the Pistons in 89' and 90' instead of Pippen's 9 on 40%...

So if immediate-impact players like Worthy, Dominique or Derrick Coleman had played with MJ instead of Pippen, they would've been better than Pippen in HS, college, draft, and a 2-ring headstart as a young pro (89/90).. there's no way Pippen overcomes this to still be ranked higher all-time - he simply won the "play with MJ" lottery, so the winning spotlight inflated his weak production compared to his superior peers

You would know that Ingraham doesn’t have more “raw talent” if you watched games which you admit you stopped doing years ago.

[34-24 Footwork]

Yeah...sure. Just stick him in a Lebron offense and everything will go smoothly.

[3ball]

Yeah...sure. Just stick him in a Lebron offense and everything will go smoothly.
Wade and Mo's assists declined from 6-7 to only 4 alongside lebron... Kyrie's declined too

How much would Pippen's 5 apg decline to?.. probably 3... Wow and Pippen would absolutely suck as a spot-up shooter

[Turbo Slayer]

Wade and Mo's assists declined from 6-7 to only 4 alongside lebron... Kyrie's declined too

How much would Pippen's 5 apg decline to?.. probably 3... Wow and Pippen would absolutely suck as a spot-up shooter 1.LeBron's fit has won a lot.

2. AD is actually a worst 3 point shooter than Pippen and the Lakers are still 1st seed.

[Turbo Slayer]

The Lakers are below average in 3 point shooting as a team and is still the 1st seed in the West.

[3ball]

1.LeBron's fit has won a lot.

2. AD is actually a worst 3 point shooter than Pippen and the Lakers are still 1st seed.
1. On the championship level? Nope.. worst Finals record and win-loss in modern history.

In the Eastern conference?... only after forming a strong team in a conference that weak teams were rountinely winning



2. AD is just way more dominant and better than Pippen, especially inside

He doesn't need threes to impact the game because he has big man impact.. it's like playing with Robinson or Kareem - who cares if they shoot thrres

[DoctorP]

Wade and Bosh are better than anything Jordan had and he only won 2 titles before bailing to another team. give it up kids

[warriorfan]

Wade and Bosh are better than anything Jordan had and he only won 2 titles before bailing to another team. give it up kids

In 2010 LeBron James teamed up with the #2nd(DWade) and #4th(Chris Bosh) highest PER in the league (from the same already historically weak conference as well) and still lost in the Finals while being outscored by Jason Terry (Terry logged less minutes as well)

That would be like if Jordan joined with Charles Barkley(#2 PER) and Hakeem Olajuwon(#4 PER) and lost in the Finals while being outscored by John Starks.

That puts things into perspective.

[DoctorP]

In 2010 LeBron James teamed up with the #2nd and #4th highest PER in the league (from the same already historically weak conference as well) and still lost in the Finals while being outscored by Jason Terry (Terry logged less minutes as well)

That would be like if Jordan joined with Charles Barkley(#2 PER) and Hakeem Olajuwon(#4 PER) and lost in the Finals while being outscored by John Starks.

That puts things into perspective.

got smoked by Barea, Kidd and the DIRK

[warriorfan]

got smoked by Barea, Kidd and the DIRK

It’s mind boggling. Some of these posters are in complete denial.

[FromDowntown]

In 2010 LeBron James teamed up with the #2nd(DWade) and #4th(Chris Bosh) highest PER in the league (from the same already historically weak conference as well) and still lost in the Finals while being outscored by Jason Terry (Terry logged less minutes as well)

That would be like if Jordan joined with Charles Barkley(#2 PER) and Hakeem Olajuwon(#4 PER) and lost in the Finals while being outscored by John Starks.

That puts things into perspective.

PER?

2018 LeBron PER is highest ever PER through NBA Finals. We win again.

[warriorfan]

PER?

2018 LeBron PER is highest ever PER through NBA Finals. We win again.

Eye test says no.

[Kblaze8855]

In 2010 LeBron James teamed up with the #2nd(DWade) and #4th(Chris Bosh) highest PER in the league (from the same already historically weak conference as well) and still lost in the Finals while being outscored by Jason Terry (Terry logged less minutes as well)

That would be like if Jordan joined with Charles Barkley(#2 PER) and Hakeem Olajuwon(#4 PER) and lost in the Finals while being outscored by John Starks.

That puts things into perspective.


Only if you’re a brutally hypocritical jackass who decides PER is an accurate judge of ability depending on who it makes look good at the moment.

You could get two top 5 people in PER in 2013 and come away with Melo and Brook Lopez. Nobody is feeling ripped off if they get #14 Steph in 2017 instead of Isiah Thomas who was 7th.

Your constant reposting of that idiotic point is straight up spamming and probably trolling because nobody could be stupid enough to consider it a valid point. It’s either some of the most dim witted nonsense ever posted or “But other people are stupid too” trolling which probably justifies your inclusion on the next purge list with these Lebron loving alts that popped back up lately.

You are flat out one of the worst posters on here when attempting that argument....and you do it 50 times a week. Kinda ruins your average.

[34-24 Footwork]

Only if you’re a brutally hypocritical jackass who decides PER is an accurate judge of ability depending on who it makes look good at the moment.

You could get two top 5 people in PER in 2013 and come away with Melo and Brook Lopez. Nobody is feeling ripped off if they get #14 Steph in 2017 instead of Isiah Thomas who was 7th.

Your constant reposting of that idiotic point is straight up spamming and probably trolling because nobody could be stupid enough to consider it a valid point. It’s either some of the most dim witted nonsense ever posted or “But other people are stupid too” trolling which probably justifies your inclusion on the next purge list with these Lebron loving alts that popped back up lately.

You are flat out one of the worst posters on here when attempting that argument....and you do it 50 times a week. Kinda ruins your average.

He's acontextually using the same stats that Lebron fans using when evaluating him. If you think his argument of PER is silly, then you have to maintain that perspective when Lebron fans bring up PER, as well.

It's all about baselining criteria for greatness; he's using PER because it's one of those weird stats that Lebron stans hang their hats on.

[34-24 Footwork]

And no...dropping Pippen in a modern spread, AAU, Lebron offense would get him traded in a jiffy.

He would barely touch the ball, his percentages will drop, and people with no real basketball knowledge will get on the internet and talk about how he's a scrub on offense.

He'll get traded away, Lebron's team will continue to lose, and the same "fans" or "analysts" will complain about the front office trading away Pippen.

[34-24 Footwork]

Now play him in a real, ego-less team environment like the Warriors, the league will have a problem.

[SpaceJam]

Only if you’re a brutally hypocritical jackass who decides PER is an accurate judge of ability depending on who it makes look good at the moment.

You could get two top 5 people in PER in 2013 and come away with Melo and Brook Lopez. Nobody is feeling ripped off if they get #14 Steph in 2017 instead of Isiah Thomas who was 7th.

Your constant reposting of that idiotic point is straight up spamming and probably trolling because nobody could be stupid enough to consider it a valid point. It’s either some of the most dim witted nonsense ever posted or “But other people are stupid too” trolling which probably justifies your inclusion on the next purge list with these Lebron loving alts that popped back up lately.

You are flat out one of the worst posters on here when attempting that argument....and you do it 50 times a week. Kinda ruins your average.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ColossalWelloffBlacklemur-max-1mb.gif

[Kblaze8855]

He's acontextually using the same stats that Lebron fans using when evaluating him. If you think his argument of PER is silly, then you have to maintain that perspective when Lebron fans bring up PER, as well.

It's all about baselining criteria for greatness; he's using PER because it's one of those weird stats that Lebron stans hang their hats on.


Which makes it what I mentioned here:


“But other people are stupid too” trolling which probably justifies your inclusion on the next purge list with these Lebron loving alts that popped back up lately.

[Overdrive]

[...]or “But other people are stupid too” trolling which probably justifies your inclusion on the next purge list with these Lebron loving alts that popped back up lately.


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ColossalWelloffBlacklemur-max-1mb.gif

Read that slowly.

[3ball]

He's acontextually using the same stats that Lebron fans using when evaluating him. If you think his argument of PER is silly, then you have to maintain that perspective when Lebron fans bring up PER, as well.

It's all about baselining criteria for greatness; he's using PER because it's one of those weird stats that Lebron stans hang their hats on.
Exactly

But don't mind Kblaze

He gets his panties in a bunch and throws a name-calling, hissy-fit anytime someone makes a tough critique of lebron that can't be refuted... Or he censures it entirely

I don't understand why these guys are addicted to wanting lebron to be goat.. they must be bad boys or Knicks fans and hated when MJ embarrassed them

[3ball]

Mo Williams 2009 ECF... 18.3 on 37.8%

S. Pippen. 96-98' PO....... 17.6 on 40.8%


So MJ won 3 rings with less offensive help and equal defensive help as 09' Lebron when he lost to Dwight.. (09' Cavs had #3 defense)

[Kblaze8855]

Yes....the per argument cant be refuted. Not even when # 1, 3, and 4 gets you a core of Dantley, Kiki, and Mark Aguirre but 7, 9 ,and 12 gets you prime Magic, prime Moses Malone, and peak season Isiah Thomas.

If there is anything worse than a stupid point its making one 200 times when you KNOW its incorrect. Its textbook trolling. Its posing bullshit to further a repetitive argument and doing it literally thousands of times makes you a bad poster.

I made the mistake of actually sitting down to read the front page this morning and its worse than its been in a long time.

Like 8-10 people need to go for a good long while. You are one of them. Warriorfan is another. Spacejam obviously. I assume fromdowntown is another of those alts. If I get like an hour with nothing to do later a lot of you are gone. The only reason I didnt reban those freed when we changed boards is the season shutting down so we kinda went into offseason mode where there is nothing to really talk about.

But this shit is just...unreadable right now. Nobody new would even consider posting here with you idiots going back and forth. 31 topics of this garbage at the same time.....

[Phoenix]

The January ban helped alot that week. Then the forum overhaul supposedly undid that. But I've seen some of the alts banned and unbanned since then so.....the powers that be are complicit in the bullshit( no I'm not referring to you Kblaze).

[Turbo Slayer]

I think OrlandoMagicGuy is an alt too.

He is totally new and registered in April. Suspicious..

He is bashing LeBron right now calling him "LeBrick".

[3ball]

PER is one of the most respected stats

Kblaze is just mad because lebron manufactured a fake resume by teaming up with all the top PER's in the league and all-time (AD is #3 all-time in PER)

in 2010, Wade = Kobe... Lebron teamed up with Kobe and proceeded to mostly lose and be an underdog

That's so far away from goat level.

[bullettooth]

LeBald managed to lose the finals with Wade and Bosh... Twice.

There are no guarantees with LeBald.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

I think OrlandoMagicGuy is an alt too.He is totally new and registered in April. Suspicious..
You're right this is an alt,I had a previous account but but decided to make another one under a new name.


He is bashing LeBron right now calling him "LeBrick".
Because that's what he is.The guy is an average jumpshooter,majority of his points come from inside the paint.:lol

[LostCause]

I made the mistake of actually sitting down to read the front page this morning and its worse than its been in a long time.

Like 8-10 people need to go for a good long while. You are one of them. Warriorfan is another. Spacejam obviously. I assume fromdowntown is another of those alts. If I get like an hour with nothing to do later a lot of you are gone. The only reason I didnt reban those freed when we changed boards is the season shutting down so we kinda went into offseason mode where there is nothing to really talk about.

But this shit is just...unreadable right now. Nobody new would even consider posting here with you idiots going back and forth. 31 topics of this garbage at the same time.....


Here’s hoping

[ArbitraryWater]

He's acontextually using the same stats that Lebron fans using when evaluating him. If you think his argument of PER is silly, then you have to maintain that perspective when Lebron fans bring up PER, as well.

It's all about baselining criteria for greatness; he's using PER because it's one of those weird stats that Lebron stans hang their hats on.

the problem is using PER from the prior season for the next, when Bosh's PER that year was a one time purple patch.

its obviously stupid to act that Bosh was the 4th best player that year.

[ArbitraryWater]

Eye test says no.

https://i.gyazo.com/854c6df2fd510b24842438d3bdd74dc3.jpg

more like big yes

[Kblaze8855]

Notice how with or without moderation many people are capable of acting like normal humans and not copy//pasting trolls with at best 3 points to make over tens of thousands of posts? Somehow....about 95% of the people here have never been banned regardless of where they stand on any subject. But the "simon" tolls, you, 3ball, and a select few other obsessive types really cant stop trolling or wont.

I dont think its too difficult. But you keep proving otherwise. You can all go ruin some other forum if you think 30+ topics on Lebron ****ing James at once is a reasonable thing to be happening. Normal humans dont want to talk about any individual that much for this long.

[tpols]

Yes....the per argument cant be refuted. Not even when # 1, 3, and 4 gets you a core of Dantley, Kiki, and Mark Aguirre but 7, 9 ,and 12 gets you prime Magic, prime Moses Malone, and peak season Isiah Thomas.

If there is anything worse than a stupid point its making one 200 times when you KNOW its incorrect. Its textbook trolling. Its posing bullshit to further a repetitive argument and doing it literally thousands of times makes you a bad poster.

I made the mistake of actually sitting down to read the front page this morning and its worse than its been in a long time.

Like 8-10 people need to go for a good long while. You are one of them. Warriorfan is another. Spacejam obviously. I assume fromdowntown is another of those alts. If I get like an hour with nothing to do later a lot of you are gone. The only reason I didnt reban those freed when we changed boards is the season shutting down so we kinda went into offseason mode where there is nothing to really talk about.

But this shit is just...unreadable right now. Nobody new would even consider posting here with you idiots going back and forth. 31 topics of this garbage at the same time.....


"not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7... etc."

They had much closer to magic, moses, IT expectations than dantley kiki agguire.

It would be like magic bird and kiki teaming up.

so you're being disingenuous.

[Turbo Slayer]

Notice how with or without moderation many people are capable of acting like normal humans and not copy//pasting trolls with at best 3 points to make over tens of thousands of posts? Somehow....about 95% of the people here have never been banned regardless of where they stand on any subject. But the "simon" tolls, you, 3ball, and a select few other obsessive types really cant stop trolling or wont.

I dont think its too difficult. But you keep proving otherwise. You can all go ruin some other forum if you think 30+ topics on Lebron ****ing James at once is a reasonable thing to be happening. Normal humans dont want to talk about any individual that much for this long. How about OrlandoMagicGuy? He admitted that he's an alt as well.

Evidence: Go see Post #81 in this thread.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

How about OrlandoMagicGuy? He admitted that he's an alt as well.

Evidence: Go see Post #81 in this thread.

So?What does that have to do with what he said?

[Hey Yo]

"not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7... etc."

They had much closer to magic, moses, IT expectations than dantley kiki agguire.

It would be like magic bird and kiki teaming up.

so you're being disingenuous.
Added to the long list of posters on ISH who don't know what the hell a pep rally is.


:oldlol:

[34-24 Footwork]

Whatever the case is, Bosh was a 24 & 12 guy before joining Lebron and still found a way to SEVERELY diminish his abilities in the half-court.

There's no guarantee that a player of a Pippen caliber or skillset would be able to just 'fit in' with Lebron. He'll go from a championship player to 3&D player with a minimized role. You also have to factor in that he'll have to make up for a lot of Lebron's miscues on defense.

If a second-year Kuzma shoved Bron on national television to get him moving on defense, there's no telling what Pippen would do to get himself traded.

You have to factor in all this stuff.

[Kblaze8855]

They had much closer to magic, moses, IT expectations than dantley kiki agguire.

You really dont grasp that what you just said is the entire point?

[red1]

Whatever the case is, Bosh was a 24 & 12 guy before joining Lebron and still found a way to SEVERELY diminish his abilities in the half-court.

There's no guarantee that a player of a Pippen caliber or skillset would be able to just 'fit in' with Lebron. He'll go from a championship player to 3&D player with a minimized role. You also have to factor in that he'll have to make up for a lot of Lebron's miscues on defense.

If a second-year Kuzma shoved Bron on national television to get him moving on defense, there's no telling what Pippen would do to get himself traded.

You have to factor in all this stuff.

bosh is a two-time champion now - he didnt even make it out of the first round or win more than a single first round game before that. :oldlol:



hurr durr such a diminished hall of fame career :oldlol:

[red1]

You really dont grasp that what you just said is the entire point?

you're 100% right about your point - AGAIN.


bosh was never close to a top 5 player in the league at any point in his career.


acting like he was a top-5 player using per? just laughable. :oldlol:


Yes....the per argument cant be refuted. Not even when # 1, 3, and 4 gets you a core of Dantley, Kiki, and Mark Aguirre but 7, 9 ,and 12 gets you prime Magic, prime Moses Malone, and peak season Isiah Thomas.


:oldlol:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AgedBestChuckwalla-small.gif

[Turbo Slayer]

Whatever the case is, Bosh was a 24 & 12 guy before joining Lebron and still found a way to SEVERELY diminish his abilities in the half-court.

There's no guarantee that a player of a Pippen caliber or skillset would be able to just 'fit in' with Lebron. He'll go from a championship player to 3&D player with a minimized role. You also have to factor in that he'll have to make up for a lot of Lebron's miscues on defense.

If a second-year Kuzma shoved Bron on national television to get him moving on defense, there's no telling what Pippen would do to get himself traded.

You have to factor in all this stuff.

Definition of the bolded word: to an undesirably great or intense degree


Whatever the case is, Bosh was a 24 & 12 guy before joining Lebron and still found a way to SEVERELY diminish his abilities in the half-court. LeBron did not "severely" diminish Bosh.

Bosh averaged around 34.1 minutes per game.

Per 36 minutes stats are in effect

Bosh stat line throughout his years with LeBron

PTS: 18.3

2PA: 12.4

2P% 53

3PA: 1.3

3P% 32

FG% 51

Link: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html

Bosh statline throughout his years in Toronto

PTS: 20

2PA: 14

2P% 50

3PA: 0.3

3P% 30

FG% 49

Link: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html

Conclusion: When Bosh joined LeBron in Miami, most of his Per 36 stats actually improved (2PA, 2P%, 3PA, 3P%, and FG%). Bosh obviously has lower points but that's to be expected since he was 3rd option with Wade/LeBron as 2nd and 1st respectively.

This narrative that LeBron diminishes teammates has been continually disproved over and over in most basketball forums. Why follow this stupid narrative?

[Roundball_Rock]

Did Soundwave really say LeBron couldn't hit big shots?

[Kblaze8855]

How about OrlandoMagicGuy? He admitted that he's an alt as well.

Evidence: Go see Post #81 in this thread.


I dont care about alts. There are literally hundreds of people who had more than one. Perfectly normal posters have been known to have several over the course of years. Not sure why....but it happens.

I dont really care about much of any of this. I dont come here to moderate anything. Ive been working insane hours with many people at work out with this nonsense going on and I just pop in to read some basketball news. What people are saying. WHen I show up and see 30+ topics on essentially the same thing....made by some combo of the same 3-4 people talking back and forth to themselves while hundreds of registered users are online apparently not wanting to be involved it tells me normal people dont like that shit. And they shouldnt. We get a half dozen people who may literally be disturbed(how many normal people do you imagine would make 500+ topics on a single athlete on a forum? And 500 is not an exaggeration) destroying any legit chance for a normal sports fan to talk about anything.

I get we have to find something to talk about with the nba paused but if all you can get your mind on is Lebron vs Jordan you might not even be a basketball fan. You are.....something else. Nothing good.

[Turbo Slayer]

I dont care about alts. There are literally hundreds of people who had more than one. Perfectly normal posters have been known to have several over the course of years. Not sure why....but it happens.

I dont really care about much of any of this. I dont come here to moderate anything. Ive been working insane hours with many people at work out with this nonsense going on and I just pop in to read some basketball news. What people are saying. WHen I show up and see 30+ topics on essentially the same thing....made by some combo of the same 3-4 people talking back and forth to themselves while literally hundreds of registered users are online apparently not wanting to be involved it tells me normal people dont like that shit. And they shouldnt. We get a half dozen people who may literally be disturbed(how many normal people do you imagine would make 500+ topics on a single athlete on a forum? And 500 is not an exaggeration) destroying any legit chance for a normal sports fan to talk about anything.

I get we have to find something to talk about with the nba paused but if all you can get your mind on is Lebron vs Jordan you might not even be a basketball fan. You are.....something else. Nothing good. Yeah man. I totally get you. Moderators don't get enough credit for doing their jobs.

Credit to you. :cheers:

[Turbo Slayer]

Go see Post #96.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

How about OrlandoMagicGuy? He admitted that he's an alt as well.

Evidence: Go see Post #81 in this thread.

So?What does that have to do with what he said?
Still waiting on an answer......

[Turbo Slayer]

Still waiting on an answer...... Hey man its all good. :cheers:

[Phoenix]

Back in January after the 'purge' I saw alot of old posters come out of the woodworks that I hadn't seen in years. Pretty obvious to me you got enough decent posters to carry the board without the need to have trolls creating 50 versions of the same topics. People will post when the environment is cleaned up to do so.