Scottie Pippen turned a 56 wins team into a 67 wins team

[iamgine]

In '97-'98, Pippen only played 44 games.

Without Pippen, the Bulls went 26 - 12 (.68) which is equivalent to a 56 wins team.

With Pippen, the Bulls went 36 - 8 (.82) which is equivalent to a 67 wins team.


I haven't seen this amazing achievement discussed.

[Roundball_Rock]

In '97-'98, Pippen only played 44 games.

Without Pippen, the Bulls went 26 - 12 (.68) which is equivalent to a 56 wins team.

With Pippen, the Bulls went 36 - 8 (.82) which is equivalent to a 67 wins team.


I haven't seen this amazing achievement discussed.

I posted about it here years ago. Look up the difference in efficiency in the team and each player with and without him (we can use first and second half data as a proxy) which is revealing. I'll look to see if I have the notes.

[Docs Orders]

:applause:

[Soundwave]

Kinda misleading again you can tell who actually watched games.

The Bulls started uncharacteristically badly in 97-98, but they were cooking again long before Pippen came back.


They were 12-3 in the 15 games prior to Pippen returning on Jan. 10th, 1998 and 1st in the Eastern Conference at that time, so basically they went from playing .800 basketball to ... .820. Whoopity doo.

[Manny98]

Nopipnochip

[sportjames23]

Kinda misleading again you can tell who actually watched games.

The Bulls started uncharacteristically badly in 97-98, but they were cooking again long before Pippen came back.


They were 12-3 in the 15 games prior to Pippen returning on Jan. 10th, 1998 and 1st in the Eastern Conference at that time, so basically they went from playing .800 basketball to ... .820. Whoopity doo.

OP not telling the whole truth again and getting busted? You hate to see it. :oldlol:

[G0ATbe]

If Pippen/MJ never ended up together, Pippen would’ve retired with more rings there’s no doubt in my mind.

[Soundwave]

Further to this the Bulls were basically the hottest team in the NBA for over a month before Pippen came back including back to back wins against the Lakers and Suns who were two of top 3 teams in the league during that stretch (Seattle was in that mix at the time).

12-3 in the 15 games before Pippen came back

12-3 in the first 15 games with Pippen

So basically virtually no difference. Mainly Kukoc had to go through an adjustment phase without Pippen and he played like dog crap the first month of that season (only topping 15 points like 3 times) but after they got settled in they started racking up wins at their regular pace.

[Lebron23]

Further to this the Bulls were basically the hottest team in the NBA for over a month before Pippen came back including back to back wins against the Lakers and Suns who were two of top 3 teams in the league during that stretch (Seattle was in that mix at the time).

12-3 in the 15 games before Pippen came back

12-3 in the first 15 games with Pippen

So basically virtually no difference. Mainly Kukoc had to go through an adjustment phase without Pippen and he played like dog crap the first month of that season (only topping 15 points like 3 times) but after they got settled in they started racking up wins at their regular pace.

No Pip No Chip, No Phil No Chip.

[Roundball_Rock]

Notice how they never apply this logic to the 95' season? The Bulls were 8-2 before MJ came back, 13-4 after he came back.

You can always play games with small sample sizes. The Bulls without MJ were 27-11 in 94', which also included a similarly slow start and then a hot run (4-6 and then they went 23-5). See, who needs Mike?

[IllegalD]

No Pip No Chip, No Phil No Chip.

No Wade No Chip, No Kyrie No Chip, No Bosh No Chip, No Ray Allen bailing his ass out No Chip.

[Roundball_Rock]

What you never get from MJ stans is the full context. It's always sleights of hands.

There is a clear trend in Pippen's career.

1988-1989 Bulls: 4-5 without him (44%), 43-30 with him (59%)
Over 82 games: on pace for 36 wins without him, 48 wins with him

1993-94 Bulls: 4-6 without him (40%), 51-21 with him (71%)
Over 82 games: on pace for 33 wins without him, 58 wins (#1 seed) with him
Impact: +25

1997-98 Bulls: 26-12 without him (68%), 36-8 with him (82%)
Over 82 games: on pace for 56 wins without him (#3 seed), 67 wins (best record in the league) with him
Impact: +11

56 wins would have meant that game 7 of the ECF, which the Bulls squeaked by in, would have been played in Indiana and not Chicago...

2000-01 Portland: 15-7 without him (68%), 35-25 with him (58%)
Over 82 games: 56 wins without him (tied with LA for #2 in the West), 48 wins with him (#8 seed)
Impact: -8

2001-02 Portland: 10-12 without him (45%), 39-21 with him (65%)
Over 82 games: 37 wins without him (#10 in the West), 53 wins with him (#5 in the West)
Impact: +16

2002-03 Portland: 12-13 without him (48%), 38-19 with him (67%)
Over 82 games: 39 wins without him (#11 in the West), 55 wins with him (#4 in the West)
Impact: +13

By 2002 he was a 36 year old well past his prime 11 ppg scorer. Was it his 11 ppg that Portland missed? No, it was his intangibles and leadership.

Moreover, look at his teams after he left. Houston missed the playoffs. Portland missed the playoffs. Chicago missed the playoffs.

Maybe all of the above is a string of coincidences but common sense tells you there is an obvious trend that shows his value to his teams, which Kerr spoke about last night.

[Soundwave]

Notice how they never apply this logic to the 95' season? The Bulls were 8-2 before MJ came back, 13-4 after he came back.

You can always play games with small sample sizes. The Bulls without MJ were 27-11 in 94', which also included a similarly slow start and then a hot run (4-6 and then they went 23-5). See, who needs Mike?

The Bulls actually were basically a 60+ win team like 90% of the time with Jordan.

The 92-93 season where they were just tired of playing and wanted to get to the playoffs to they could threepeat and get everything over with is if anything the real outlier.

[Roundball_Rock]

No Wade No Chip, No Kyrie No Chip, No Bosh No Chip, No Ray Allen bailing his ass out No Chip.


Yeah, if you list the entire roster of those teams no chip. This is ridiculous. You can do that with any player if you list 45 players.

With MJ it is one...

[IllegalD]

Yeah, if you list the entire roster of those teams no chip. This is ridiculous. You can do that with any player if you list 45 players.

With MJ it is one...



So? How is that a Win for LeBron?

If anything it shows that dude wasn't loyal like Mike (who could've easily signed off on Pippen being traded for a younger star that would've extended his championship window) and that he's a bitch that ran multiple times to team up with great players.

[Axe]

Nitpicking and mudslinging all over again.

[iamgine]

Kinda misleading again you can tell who actually watched games.

The Bulls started uncharacteristically badly in 97-98, but they were cooking again long before Pippen came back.


They were 12-3 in the 15 games prior to Pippen returning on Jan. 10th, 1998 and 1st in the Eastern Conference at that time, so basically they went from playing .800 basketball to ... .820. Whoopity doo.
Just last season Utah was on a 14-1 winning streak. Should we also think they could maintain it? :lol

[3ball]

Mo Williams turned a 45-win team into a 66-win team (21 more wins)

He was the only roster change in 2009

But regular season has never mattered much

[Roundball_Rock]

If anything it shows that dude wasn't loyal like Mike (who could've easily signed off on Pippen being traded for a younger star that would've extended his championship window) and that he's a bitch that ran multiple times to team up with great players.

He didn't support a trade for a younger star out of self-interest. T Mac rode the bench his first few years. By the time he became a star MJ would be pushing 40. Guys like Vin Baker were clearly inferior players. That's how trades work of course: give up something to get something. The Bulls would get younger stars but would have to sacrifice short term success by trading a superstar in his prime for a star like Baker, Kemp, etc. or a high schooler like T Mac. It isn't like they were getting a player equal to Pippen back in any of those scenarios.

[Roundball_Rock]

Just last season Utah was on a 14-1 winning streak. Should we also think they could maintain it? :lol

Exactly. You can cherry pick small sample sizes to show anything. It is easier to get by without a superstar for a short time knowing that he will be back then if he is gone for good. An example of this is the Bulls without Rose. The Bulls actually played well without Rose in 2012 when he got hurt during the season. They declined but still were elite. When Rose is gone for good they lose to the 8 seed in the first round and then become a 45 and 48 win team the next two years without him (after having the best record in the NBA two years in a row with him).

[guy]

Notice how they never apply this logic to the 95' season? The Bulls were 8-2 before MJ came back, 13-4 after he came back.

You can always play games with small sample sizes. The Bulls without MJ were 27-11 in 94', which also included a similarly slow start and then a hot run (4-6 and then they went 23-5). See, who needs Mike?

This is a completely disingenuous argument if its coming from someone that watched each and every one of those seasons and its part of the reason these with and without team record comparisons can be so stupid.

The Bulls were really good in 94 without Jordan. Its been debated to death what are the reasons they were still really good and we don't need to get into that. It doesn't change the fact that they were really good.

In terms of 95 vs 98, you're right that teams go on hot runs here and there all the time. But sometimes you could actually pinpoint if there was something driving a run over a course of games.

In 98, its pretty easy to speculate and see what happened - the Bulls were an old team that just came off 2 deep playoff runs where they had 2 of the 3 best seasons ever, and had to adjust to losing their 2nd best player and who's 3rd best player missed training camp and the preseason. They went 8-7. Once they adjusted, they went 16-4 before Pippen came back. Were they really a 16-4 (66 win pace) team without Pippen? Maybe not but they were probably closer to that then the 56 win pace team their overall record suggested at that point. They weren't some average team that randomly went on a great run like the 08 Rockets for example who won 22 games in a row. They were a talented team, with a ton of championship experience, led by the best player in the league and consensus greatest player of all time. With that said, it doesn't mean they weren't much better with Pippen, just that in the regular season it may have not made much of a difference - or maybe it would've given the mental and physical wear and tear over a season his absence could've caused the rest of the team, who knows.

In 95, during that 8-2, there were no returns from injury, no new players, no coaching change, etc. So maybe it was just random? Or maybe it was past the trade deadline, so Pippen stopped demanding trades to the point that he was literally making up trade rumors and calling it a "lost season" and there was a lot of momentum and excitement from Jordan potentially coming back which started almost 3 weeks before Jordan's first game.

:confusedshrug: https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/michael-jordan-im-back-fax-1995-nba

With that said, it also shows maybe even without Jordan this team was underperforming and should've been alot better then below .500 before this 8-2 run and they would've been if Pippen and probably some of his teammates didn't consider this a "lost season". But this also calls into question a ton of other seasons where people try to equate someone's impact with how they perform without a certain superstar since in many cases those players consider it a "lost season" as well .

[ArbitraryWater]

Just last season Utah was on a 14-1 winning streak. Should we also think they could maintain it? :lol

Bingo

Soundwave = bottom feeder

[iamgine]

Mo Williams turned a 45-win team into a 66-win team (21 more wins)

He was the only roster change in 2009

But regular season has never mattered much
Pls don't comment if you don't watch basketball. There's a lot of roster change from 08 to 09.

[Rico2016]

If Pippen/MJ never ended up together, Pippen would’ve retired with more rings there’s no doubt in my mind.

Absolutely without a doubt in my mind. Fact we have already seen Michael Jordan's career without Pippen. Either look at his 1-9 record or for a more modern take we can look at Allen Iverson's career.