"Pippen was the best player in the world in 93, 94, 95" - Dennis Rodman

[Docs Orders]

"and people didn't know that"


@3:45


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy4aEU5Swq4

[SouBeachTalents]

You know 3ball is fcking DYING inside not being able to respond to this thread :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

3ball fcking DYING inside being unable to respond to this thread :oldlol:

https://media1.tenor.com/images/51ed3f4f2001697258609326a8a3cc8b/tenor.gif

Sounds about right

[red1]

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oGNDk2Ue1PbGr8qty/giphy.gif



You know 3ball is fcking DYING inside not being able to respond to this thread :oldlol:

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oGNDk2Ue1PbGr8qty/giphy.gif



https://media1.tenor.com/images/51ed3f4f2001697258609326a8a3cc8b/tenor.gif

Sounds about right

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[SamuraiSWISH]

Umm no. Not even close in 1993. Wasn't even the best player at his own position that season. Old, post achilles tear Domonique Wilkins had a MONSTER season. Had a huge down year following the Olympics. Mike at 30 had to pick up his slack. Part of the reason they only won 57 games that year, besides pacing themselves.

1993

1) MJ
2) Barkley
3) Hakeem
4) Ewing
5) Nique

1994

1) Hakeem
2) D-Rob
3) IMO Shaq
4) Pippen
5) Ewing

1995

1) D-Rob
2) Hakeem
3) Shaq
4) K. Malone
5) Ewing

He's not even close in 1995 either. Hell, Mike came out of retirement / baseball for 1.75 years, and in only 17 games he CLEARLY was already the Bulls absolute best player.

Highest he EVER got on the MVP / Best Player ladder, is 3 or 4 depending how you rank him in the much praised 1994 season. Until that semis series against NY really exposed him yet again, in terms of being an alpha and a scorer. Much as it did the year prior, even with Jordan on the floor.

[red1]

Umm no. Not even close in 1993. Had a huge down year following the Olympics. Mike at 30 had to pick up his slack. Part of the reason they only won 57 games that year, besides pacing themselves.

1993

1) MJ
2) Barkley
3) Hakeem
4) Ewing
5) Nique

1994

1) Hakeem
2) D-Rob
3) IMO Shaq
4) Pippen
5) Ewing

1995

1) D-Rob
2) Hakeem
3) Shaq
4) K. Malone
5) Ewing

He's not even close in 1995 either. Hell, Mike came out of retirement / baseball for 1.75 years, and in only 17 games he CLEARLY was already the Bulls absolute best player.

Highest he EVER got on the MVP / Best Player ladder, is 3 or 4 depending how you rank him in the much praised 1994 season. Until that semis series against NY really exposed him yet again, in terms of being an alpha and a scorer. Much as it did the year prior, even with Jordan on the floor.

its just dennis rodmans opinion I dont think anyone would use his opinion as proof



the reason its so hilarious to me is because some posters tell us that pippen is a fake allstar.



meanwhile in reality he was top 3 in the world or top-5 at worst in the mid-90s.



https://media.giphy.com/media/3oGNDk2Ue1PbGr8qty/giphy.gif

[SamuraiSWISH]

its just dennis rodmans opinion I dont think anyone would use his opinion as proof



the reason its so hilarious to me is because some posters tell us that pippen is a fake allstar.



meanwhile in reality he's top 3 in the world or top-5 at worst.



https://media.giphy.com/media/3oGNDk2Ue1PbGr8qty/giphy.gif

Have you seen his North Korea opinions? Or the 30 for 30 on him? Even in his prime he was a whacko ... it's gotten worse since retirement.

[Docs Orders]

its just dennis rodmans opinion I dont think anyone would use his opinion as proof



the reason its so hilarious to me is because some posters tell us that pippen is a fake allstar.



meanwhile in reality he was top 3 in the world or top-5 at worst in the mid-90s.



https://media.giphy.com/media/3oGNDk2Ue1PbGr8qty/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oGNDk2Ue1PbGr8qty/giphy.gif

[Manny98]

He's right, Pippen was really that good. You just have these pathetic MJ stans trying to prop him down to make their hero look like he won with no help :facepalm

[red1]

Have you seen his North Korea opinions? Or the 30 for 30 on him? Even in his prime he was a whacko ... it's gotten worse since retirement.

not to mention dressing like a woman.



its still funny.

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https://media.giphy.com/media/3oGNDk2Ue1PbGr8qty/giphy.gif


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[Real Men Wear Green]

Pip was never the best in the world but he was absolutely an elite player. It's stupid to see how his legacy is attacked by the crazy MJ stan and exalted by the James psychophants with probably neither side having watched him play and just shooting talking points with no context about games they never saw.

[Roundball_Rock]

the reason its so hilarious to me is because some posters tell us that pippen is a fake allstar.

Exactly.

SamuariSwish, Jordan himself said Pippen was the best player in the NBA in 1995.

For me Pippen peaked at 3rd in 94' behind Hakeem and Robinson. In 95' he fell to 4th as Shaq surpassed him. 96' 5th as MJ was back. 97' 5th again. 98', 92' he wasn't top 5 but was close. 91' top 10.

Yet we have people like 3ball saying he was Mo Williams or others saying Kyrie Irving was much better. He was a legitimate superstar, a MVP caliber player. He was similar to Ewing or Drexler at their peaks--players MJ stans love to tell us were great.

People don't realize how hard it is to be the best player. Guys like Barkley, K. Malone, KG, Dirk, West, Oscar, Isiah, Dr. J, D. Robinson all never got to #1. Many legends don't even get into the top 5. Reggie Miller or Dominique were never close to the top 5.

[red1]

Pip was never the best in the world but he was absolutely an elite player. It's stupid to see how his legacy is attacked by the crazy MJ stan and exalted by the James psychophants with probably neither side having watched him play and just shooting talking points with no context about games they never saw.

exactly. he was excellent - maybe not a first option scoring-wise but a GREAT piece for any team. and CERTAINLY not some challenged bumbling klutz like some people have literally told us.



Exactly.

SamuariSwish, Jordan himself said Pippen was the best player in the NBA in 1995.

For me Pippen peaked at 3rd in 94' behind Hakeem and Robinson. In 95' he fell to 4th as Shaq surpassed him. 96' 5th as MJ was back. 97' 5th again. 98', 92' he wasn't top 5 but was close. 91' top 10.

Yet we have people like 3ball saying he was Mo Williams or others saying Kyrie Irving was much better. He was a legitimate superstar, a MVP caliber player. He was similar to Ewing or Drexler at their peaks--players MJ stans love to tell us were great.

People don't realize how hard it is to be the best player. Guys like Barkley, K. Malone, KG, Dirk, West, Oscar, Isiah, Dr. J, D. Robinson all never got to #1. Many legends don't even get into the top 5. Reggie Miller or Dominique were never close to the top 5.

pippen fam eating steak and caviar in 2020 :cheers:

[jlip]

Since everybody is basically quarantined with a lot of time on their hands, I guess I will add more fuel to the trolls' fire. This was Phil Jackson reflecting on how MJ's perception of Pippen changed after the Dream Team's performance in 1992.

“Michael returned from the games raving about Scottie’s performance. Before the summer, Michael had regarded Pippen as the most talented member of his supporting cast. But after watching him outplay Magic Johnson, John Stockton, Clyde Drexler, and other future Hall of Famers in Barcelona, Michael realized that Scottie was the best all-around player on what many consider the best basketball team ever assembled. Scottie, Michael had to admit, had even outshone him in several of the games.”–Phil Jackson

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/phil-jackson-remembers-a-moment-when-michael-jordan-realized-scottie-pippen-is-the-best-all-around-player-in-the-nba/

[red1]

Since everybody is basically quarantined with a lot of time on their hands, I guess I will add more fuel to the trolls' fire. This was Phil Jackson reflecting on how MJ's perception of Pippen changed after the Dream Team's performance in 1992.

“Michael returned from the games raving about Scottie’s performance. Before the summer, Michael had regarded Pippen as the most talented member of his supporting cast. But after watching him outplay Magic Johnson, John Stockton, Clyde Drexler, and other future Hall of Famers in Barcelona, Michael realized that Scottie was the best all-around player on what many consider the best basketball team ever assembled. Scottie, Michael had to admit, had even outshone him in several of the games.”–Phil Jackson

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/phil-jackson-remembers-a-moment-when-michael-jordan-realized-scottie-pippen-is-the-best-all-around-player-in-the-nba/

thanks for posting this. I've watched many videos of the dream team and mike and scottie were extremely athletic and pippen was a beast.


this doesnt surprise me at all.


I've posted this a couple of times - its the way pippen shut down kukoc who was a very hyped overseas prospect:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j86xZvW5zJw

[RogueBorg]

Exactly.

For me Pippen peaked at 3rd in 94' behind Hakeem and Robinson. In 95' he fell to 4th as Shaq surpassed him. 96' 5th as MJ was back. 97' 5th again. 98', 92' he wasn't top 5 but was close. 91' top 10.





It's been interesting watching Pippen's legacy grow as the years go by. Back in the 90's when the 50 greatest players came out, the two players that people argued shouldn't be on the list was Shaq and Scottie, Shaq because he was only in his 4th year but Scottie because people didn't think highly of him. I lived in Chicago and we used to argue this on the local sports talk radio stations. We watched his migraine shenanians against Detroit and his refusing to enter a playoff game against the hated Knicks in '94. The fact is, he was the man in '94 and his leadership skills were questionable. He quit on not just the Bulls, but the city. None of us thought he was better than Grant Hill, and none of us thought he was better than Penny, at the time. Looking back at the entirety of his career it's turned out better than both Hill and Penny, but you have to understand how people viewed Pippen at that time. It wasn't great. He was a fantastic player, he deserves alot of credit, but you guys elevate him too much.

[Roundball_Rock]

pippen fam eating steak and caviar in 2020 :cheers:

:cheers:


This was Phil Jackson reflecting on how MJ's perception of Pippen changed after the Dream Team's performance in 1992.

Not only that, in 1995 he said Pippen was the best player in the NBA. When he said it I thought he was just praising a teammate but years later David Halberstam talked to MJ in an interview for the book and MJ said he meant what he said then.

[LAL]

:cheers:



Not only that, in 1995 he said Pippen was the best player in the NBA. When he said it I thought he was just praising a teammate but years later David Halberstam talked to MJ in an interview for the book and MJ said he meant what he said then.

OMG he did? So he's not the goat after all??

[LAL]

It's been interesting watching Pippen's legacy grow as the years go by. Back in the 90's when the 50 greatest players came out, the two players that people argued shouldn't be on the list was Shaq and Scottie, Shaq because he was only in his 4th year but Scottie because people didn't think highly of him. I lived in Chicago and we used to argue this on the local sports talk radio stations. We watched his migraine shenanians against Detroit and his refusing to enter a playoff game against the hated Knicks in '94. The fact is, he was the man in '94 and his leadership skills were questionable. He quit on not just the Bulls, but the city. None of us thought he was better than Grant Hill, and none of us thought he was better than Penny, at the time. Looking back at the entirety of his career it's turned out better than both Hill and Penny, but you have to understand how people viewed Pippen at that time. It wasn't great. He was a fantastic player, he deserves alot of credit, but you guys elevate him too much.

Solid stuff here

[Roundball_Rock]

you have to understand how people viewed Pippen at that time. It wasn't great. He was a fantastic player, he deserves alot of credit, but you guys elevate him too much.

It depends. I was a Pippen fan who grew up in the Philadelphia area so I saw him through a national lens. 1.8 second gate didn't help his image but he wasn't nationally harped on as I assume he was locally. He was a superstar, not the best player but definitely in the top 5 at his best. Hill got a lot of hype (he was supposed to be the next MJ) but remember Pippen was ahead of him in all-NBA in 95' and 96'. By 97' Hill was better but Pippen was 31 by then so not shocking.

The top 50 thing comes up but look at those lists now. Pippen consistently is in the top 20-30 range ahead of many of his peers. For instance, Slam Magazine's list in 2018 had Pippen 22nd. Wilkins was 41st, Payton 39th, Ewing 30th, Robinson 29th, Stockton 25th. Malone (21), Barkley (20) and obviously Hakeem and MJ were ahead of him.

I am not sure why Pippen is the one people keep pointing to about the top 50 when anyone who does those lists has him easily in it. I suspect a lot of these people are not putting pen to paper. Can anyone here name 50 players greater than him?

The leadership stuff is an odd critique, albeit a common one. His coaches and teammates all rave about his leadership. Who are we to say he sucked as a leader? We weren't in the locker room or in the huddle.

[RRR3]

Exactly.

SamuariSwish, Jordan himself said Pippen was the best player in the NBA in 1995.

For me Pippen peaked at 3rd in 94' behind Hakeem and Robinson. In 95' he fell to 4th as Shaq surpassed him. 96' 5th as MJ was back. 97' 5th again. 98', 92' he wasn't top 5 but was close. 91' top 10.

Yet we have people like 3ball saying he was Mo Williams or others saying Kyrie Irving was much better. He was a legitimate superstar, a MVP caliber player. He was similar to Ewing or Drexler at their peaks--players MJ stans love to tell us were great.

People don't realize how hard it is to be the best player. Guys like Barkley, K. Malone, KG, Dirk, West, Oscar, Isiah, Dr. J, D. Robinson all never got to #1. Many legends don't even get into the top 5. Reggie Miller or Dominique were never close to the top 5.
You sure about that? Very arguable for all of these guys. I would imagine West may have been arguable as well, but I am less familiar with who was the best players during his career.

[Roundball_Rock]

OMG he did? So he's not the goat after all??

Yeah and in 95' he would be asked if he felt he was the best player in the NBA again and he would say he wasn't even the best player on his team.

I forgot to mention in 96' MJ was going around saying Pippen should be MVP.

I always take the public stuff with a grain of salt--it is smart to praise a teammate--but when it is confirmed privately (like the Dream Team quote posted earlier in this thread) or years later then you have to give it weight.

[Roundball_Rock]

You sure about that? Very arguable for all of these guys. I would imagine West may have been arguable as well, but I am less familiar with who was the best players during his career.

West and Oscar never did because Wilt, Russell, or Kareem was always around. There was a "Hakeem versus Robinson" debate in 94' and 95' (most people said Hakeem but Robinson had a sizable contingent) but in retrospect no one is going to say Robinson was better than peak Hakeem.

Dirk, KG are in a similar boat as West and Oscar. Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, or LeBron were always around.

Dr. J had Kareem, Bird, Moses there blocking him.

You can apply the same to Harden or Curry. They have been a top 3-5 guys for years but one or more of LeBron, Durant, Giannis were always better.

[RRR3]

West and Oscar never did because Wilt, Russell, or Kareem was always around. There was a "Hakeem versus Robinson" debate in 94' and 95' (most people said Hakeem but Robinson had a sizable contingent) but in retrospect no one is going to say Robinson was better than peak Hakeem.

Dirk, KG are in a similar boat as West and Oscar. Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, or LeBron were always around.

Dr. J had Kareem, Bird, Moses there blocking him.

You can apply the same to Harden or Curry. They have been a top 3-5 guys for years but one or more of LeBron, Durant, Giannis were always better.
Who was better than KG in 2004? Didn't Dr. J have a case in 1981 or 1982? Didn't Dirk have a case in 2006 or 2007? You could easily argue Curry any year from 15-19.

[Roundball_Rock]

Who was better than KG in 2004? Didn't Dr. J have a case in 1981 or 1982? Didn't Dirk have a case in 2006 or 2007? You could easily argue Curry any year from 15-19.

These guys weren't far behind so I suppose you could argue for any of them (in theory you could do the same for Pippen too, or Harden today). Duncan was the best player in 2004, Kobe in 2006 and 2007. Curry was never better than LeBron or Durant. For Dr. J in 81' Bird was better (although J won MVP) and arguably Kareem. In 82' Bird again and Moses.

MVP is different as we see these guys sometimes win those due to narratives, voter fatigue, etc. Harden won it in 2018. Did anyone think he was the best player, though?

[SouBeachTalents]

These guys weren't far behind so I suppose you could argue for any of them (in theory you could do the same for Pippen too, or Harden today). Duncan was the best player in 2004, Kobe in 2006 and 2007. Curry was never better than LeBron or Durant. For Dr. J in 81' Bird was better (although J won MVP) and arguably Kareem. In 82' Bird again and Moses.

MVP is different as we see these guys sometimes win those due to narratives, voter fatigue, etc. Harden won it in 2018. Did anyone think he was the best player, though?
Imo KG was the best player in '04 & Dirk in 2011. I really don't see Duncan's argument at all over KG for that year

[RRR3]

These guys weren't far behind so I suppose you could argue for any of them (in theory you could do the same for Pippen too, or Harden today). Duncan was the best player in 2004, Kobe in 2006 and 2007. Curry was never better than LeBron or Durant. For Dr. J in 81' Bird was better (although J won MVP) and arguably Kareem. In 82' Bird again and Moses.

MVP is different as we see these guys sometimes win those due to narratives, voter fatigue, etc. Harden won it in 2018. Did anyone think he was the best player, though?
Curry has been better than Durant for a while and he was absolutely better than LeBron in 2019. I generally see people ranking KG as the best in 2004 man, I don't remember seeing someone say Duncan before tbh.

[RRR3]

Imo KG was the best player in '04 & Dirk in 2011. I really don't see Duncan's argument at all over KG for that year
Dirk was absolutely not the best in 2011. LeBron clearly was, or else he wouldn't have got so much shit for choking. Dirk had the most successful year of course.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Exactly.

For me Pippen peaked at 3rd in 94' behind Hakeem and Robinson.

Pippen might have peaked in 1994, but he wasn't better than Hakeem/Robinson/Shaq/Malone/Barkley. Especially if we're including postseason play. He was top ~6-8 in 1994. Top 10ish in 1995, as his scoring went down. The other players I mentioned, besides Barkley, were also playing better than the year before.

Pippen was a top 5 player in the 1996 regular-season, but trailed off a bit in the playoffs (39% shooting in the playoffs. ouch!) Overall? I'd say he was top 10 that year. Top 10 in 1997. And probably top 10 in 1998.

Giving him top 5 status for some of those years was a bit generous of you. Other than that, we mostly agree. I mean better THAT than going the 3ball route, thinking Pippen was Derek Fisher :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk was absolutely not the best in 2011. LeBron clearly was, or else he wouldn't have got so much shit for choking. Dirk had the most successful year of course.

Who was the best player in 2016?

See, the best player still has to perform best.

LeBron and Dirk got an equal share of playoff time, 4 rounds, and Dirk outperformed him. He was better, literally.

[Bronbron23]

Umm no. Not even close in 1993. Wasn't even the best player at his own position that season. Old, post achilles tear Domonique Wilkins had a MONSTER season. Had a huge down year following the Olympics. Mike at 30 had to pick up his slack. Part of the reason they only won 57 games that year, besides pacing themselves.

1993

1) MJ
2) Barkley
3) Hakeem
4) Ewing
5) Nique

1994

1) Hakeem
2) D-Rob
3) IMO Shaq
4) Pippen
5) Ewing

1995

1) D-Rob
2) Hakeem
3) Shaq
4) K. Malone
5) Ewing

He's not even close in 1995 either. Hell, Mike came out of retirement / baseball for 1.75 years, and in only 17 games he CLEARLY was already the Bulls absolute best player.

Highest he EVER got on the MVP / Best Player ladder, is 3 or 4 depending how you rank him in the much praised 1994 season. Until that semis series against NY really exposed him yet again, in terms of being an alpha and a scorer. Much as it did the year prior, even with Jordan on the floor.

This. You have to have as much drugs in your veins as rodman to actually think this. Pip was definitely one of the best those years though and mj was definitely lucky to have him.

[Lebron23]

Pippen from 1994-95 is Kawhi Levrk without the load management.

[LAL]

Pippen from 1994-95 is Kawhi Levrk without the load management.

What's wrong with you bronsexuals? It's amazing how you all take pride in lying and stupidity.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Pippen from 1994-95 is Kawhi Levrk without the load management.

Pippen couldn't score like Kawhi. He had similar skill and fundamentals but never the mentality.

[red1]

What's wrong with you bronsexuals? It's amazing how you all take pride in lying and stupidity.

the only thing I've seen you post is "bron bron bron bron bron"


you're a bronsexual methinks

[LAL]

the only thing I've seen you post is "bron bron bron bron bron"


you're a bronsexual methinks

"Kyrie fan" "cavaliers fan" :oldlol::oldlol: I'm going to have so much fun with you.

[red1]

"Kyrie fan" "cavaliers fan" :oldlol::oldlol: I'm going to have so much fun with you.

no you wont bitch.


you're a ****ing retard. :oldlol:

[RogueBorg]

I am not sure why Pippen is the one people keep pointing to about the top 50 when anyone who does those lists has him easily in it. .

They do now, but back then it was a real debate. I think 1994 really hurt him in Chicagoans eyes. It really bothered me. It was the freakin' Knicks. New York vs. Chicago, Knicks vs. Bulls, you cannot sit out. Anyway, all was forgiven by '98. I thought he deserved to be on that list, but, iirc, Dominique Wilkins being left off caused a huge reaction, "If we put Nique in there, who do you take out?"

SF to SF, the obvious answer was Pippen.

Hindsight being 20/20 with the ability to have seen these careers play out, there's no question Pippen belongs on there.

One other thing, the talk shows talked alot about Pippen's contract back then. Interestingly enough, Mike Greenberg was an intern for that radio station at the time. Anyway, not long after he signed it, Larry Johnson signed for some un-godly amount, $80 million comes to mind, check me on that, but Pip's contract looked really bad in comparison. But that's what he wanted, a long term deal. I would never ask him for financial advice.

[Docs Orders]

no you wont bitch.


you're a ****ing retard. :oldlol:

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oGNDk2Ue1PbGr8qty/giphy.gif

[Roundball_Rock]

Giving him top 5 status for some of those years was a bit generous of you. Other than that, we mostly agree. I mean better THAT than going the 3ball route, thinking Pippen was Derek Fisher :oldlol:

People conflate 93' Barkley with 94' Barkley. He got hurt and his production went down in the second half and he was never again the Barkley we saw before that. Barkley, Malone, Pippen all play the same position so we can get an idea how they were perceived via all-NBA voting. Pippen and Malone were the first team guys and Pippen finished ahead of Malone in all-NBA 2 of 3 years from 1994-1996.

96' may actually have been Pippen's best season but MJ overshadowed him. Pippen had injury problems late in the season and that carried over to the playoffs. 96' was easily his worst finals.

In 95' his scoring went down because MJ came back and his stats took a hit across the board. He was scoring the same as 94' before MJ. He was top 20 in rebounding as a SF.

But hey we are at least having a reasonable debate in the real world, not comparing Pippen to Fisher, Mo Wiliams, or James Jones. :oldlol:


Until that semis series against NY really exposed him yet again, in terms of being an alpha and a scorer. Much as it did the year prior, even with Jordan on the floor.

This is ridiculous. MJ was the one who struggled against New York the previous year...it is masked by one monster game.


Pippen couldn't score like Kawhi. He had similar skill and fundamentals but never the mentality.

True but Pippen was a much superior playmaker. That said, the question is 80 games of Pippen against 60 games of Kawhi since Kawhi can't play regularly. Keep in mind Kawhi's stats are inflated by the rest. No other superstar has ever rested as much as he does...


They do now, but back then it was a real debate. I think 1994 really hurt him in Chicagoans eyes.

That happens a lot, local fans will be harsher on a player when he plays and then be more fond of that player in retirement than nationally.

Philadelphia fans rip basically every star we have (except for Saint Nick Foles). Iverson was a weird exception since he didn't win much and got a pass.


Curry has been better than Durant for a while and he was absolutely better than LeBron in 2019. I generally see people ranking KG as the best in 2004 man, I don't remember seeing someone say Duncan before tbh.

Sloppy phrasing but the point is one or both of LeBron or Durant has always been ahead of Curry and then you have other guys like Harden, Westbrook, and Giannis in the mix. You may have Curry as better but keep in mind the national perception was Durant was the best player on the team. I agree, although Curry was more important to the tram.

KG had a monster year and I see a lot of people saying it but I don't sway much due to one year. To me Duncan replaced Shaq as the best player and held that until Kobe took over in 2006, but I can see why people would say KG.

No one said Dirk was the best player in 2011. It was LeBron, Kobe, Wade as the consensus top 3. Dirk probably came in 4th or 5th. I do think Dirk was the best player in the playoffs, though.

[RRR3]

no you wont bitch.


you're a ****ing retard. :oldlol:
:roll:

[red1]

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oGNDk2Ue1PbGr8qty/giphy.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ExemplaryCheapCapybara-max-1mb.gif




:roll:

great avatar dude. 3wade got that finals MVP in the trophy case.

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oGNDk2Ue1PbGr8qty/giphy.gif

[RRR3]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ExemplaryCheapCapybara-max-1mb.gif





great avatar dude. 3wade got that finals MVP in the trophy case.

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oGNDk2Ue1PbGr8qty/giphy.gif
Thanks, man. I put it up to honor him after he retired. I probably would have changed it by now but if you change your avatar now it gets smaller than ones you had before the update.

[LAL]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ExemplaryCheapCapybara-max-1mb.gif





great avatar dude. 3wade got that finals MVP in the trophy case.

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oGNDk2Ue1PbGr8qty/giphy.gif

Fitting how you have the two worst posters here on your side. This is amusing :oldlol:

[red1]

Thanks, man. I put it up to honor him after he retired. I probably would have changed it by now but if you change your avatar now it gets smaller than ones you had before the update.

I'll always appreciate the heatles


huge fan of the way these pics still trigger people.


back to back

https://lh4.ggpht.com/-7p6qixb3V6I/T-c4SD2IeII/AAAAAAADAr8/8yBL621gl1c/s600/lebron_james_nba_120622_trophy-mvp-champion-01.jpg
https://www.nba.com/resources/static/team/v2/heat/custom-projects/2017-18_Championship_Rosters/imgs/2013_lebron_james.jpg



















































































https://i.pinimg.com/originals/25/6f/de/256fdecc12fe2cc743ba567f3c6d3636.jpg

[red1]

Fitting how you have the two worst posters here on your side. This is amusing :oldlol:


stay triggered dude


https://statics.sportskeeda.com/editor/2019/04/77646-15549876076822-800.jpg

[RRR3]

Fitting how you have the two worst posters here on your side. This is amusing :oldlol:
Are you under the impression you're considered a good poster?


I hate to break it to you, but...

[LAL]

Are you under the impression you're considered a good poster?


I hate to break it to you, but...

I don't post much and many many people here would appreciate if you did the same.

[LAmbruh]

no you wont bitch.


you're a ****ing retard. :oldlol:

:roll:

[RRR3]

I don't post much on this account.
Fixed.

[LAL]

:roll:

You thought that was funny? I'm cool with kids trying to clown me, but what was the funny part there, maybe i'm just too old. "no you won't bitcht" part or the "youre a retard"?

[LAmbruh]

no you wont bitch.


you're a ****ing retard. :oldlol:

:roll::roll:

[Wally450]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ExemplaryCheapCapybara-max-1mb.gif

[Phoenix]

No one said Dirk was the best player in 2011. It was LeBron, Kobe, Wade as the consensus top 3. Dirk probably came in 4th or 5th. I do think Dirk was the best player in the playoffs, though.

You gotta put Dwight in there somewhere. I'm not sure I'd slide Kobe in that top 3 in 2011 to be honest. Lebron, Wade, Dirk, Howard IIRC had better campaigns. Kobe may have been like 5th. Rose the MVP at 6.

[SouBeachTalents]

You gotta put Dwight in there somewhere. I'm not sure I'd slide Kobe in that top 3 in 2011 to be honest. Lebron, Wade, Dirk, Howard IIRC had better campaigns. Kobe may have been like 5th. Rose the MVP at 6.
Kobe definitely wasn't top 3 in 2011. The clear top 4 imo were

Dirk
LeBron
Dwight
Wade

Then you'd have some order of Rose, Durant, Kobe after that

[Phoenix]

Kobe definitely wasn't top 3 in 2011. The clear top 4 imo were

Dirk
LeBron
Dwight
Wade

Then you'd have some order of Rose, Durant, Kobe after that

Yeah that sounds about right. You have Dirk definitively over Lebron that year or is that list in no particular order?

[RRR3]

Kobe definitely wasn't top 3 in 2011. The clear top 4 imo were

Dirk
LeBron
Dwight
Wade

Then you'd have some order of Rose, Durant, Kobe after that
:whatever:

How was Dirk suddenly better at basketball than LeBron because of one choke job lol.

[Phoenix]

:whatever:

How was Dirk suddenly better at basketball than LeBron because of one choke job lol.

I personally took that as Dirk having a better season, not that he was better at basketball overall. Subtle difference, but SBT can clarify.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yeah that sounds about right. You have Dirk definitively over Lebron that year or is that list in no particular order?
2011 is for sure not a definitive year, that's one of the hardest seasons to nail down who the best player in the league was. Dirk would be my top choice for that year, and honestly, the rest probably would be my ordering for 2011

[RRR3]

I personally took that as Dirk having a better season, not that he was better at basketball overall. Subtle difference, but SBT can clarify.
He had a better finals for sure, but LeBron was better the rest of the way considering that was peak defensive LeBron.

[Axe]

:whatever:

How was Dirk suddenly better at basketball than LeBron because of one choke job lol.
Probably because he got his first fmvp before lbj even got his own.

[Mamba4Life]

Probably because he got his first fmvp before lbj even got his own.

So is Iguodala still a better player than Curry?

[Axe]

So is Iguodala still a better player than Curry?
Wtf are you asking me that question when you know for a fact that I'm not even a dub stan?

[AirBonner]

Wtf are you asking me that question when you know for a fact that I'm not even a dub stan?

Stupid question gets a stupid response

[Axe]

Stupid question gets a stupid response
And most of all, a stupid reaction such as this one.

Sicko. 🙄

[AirBonner]

And most of all, a stupid reaction such as this one.

Sicko. ��

Meltdown

[Axe]

Meltdown
Cringeworthy you are

[tpols]

Pippen couldn't score like Kawhi. He had similar skill and fundamentals but never the mentality.

he also couldnt shoot like him.

Kawhi has been damn near 50/40/90 at times.

dont think there's ever been a DPOY candidate that can shoot like that. Pippen certainly couldn't, his jumper was dead broke.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

he also couldnt shoot like him.

Kawhi has been damn near 50/40/90 at times.

dont think there's ever been a DPOY candidate that can shoot like that. Pippen certainly couldn't, his jumper was dead broke.

Nah. From 97-98 Pippen had a pretty decent midrange game. And could shoot the three, albeit with the shortened line. In the late 90s, pull up transition threes were a big part of his game.

He wasn't 50/40/90, and wasn't the overall shooter Kawhi is. Agree there.

[Roundball_Rock]

You gotta put Dwight in there somewhere. I'm not sure I'd slide Kobe in that top 3 in 2011 to be honest. Lebron, Wade, Dirk, Howard IIRC had better campaigns. Kobe may have been like 5th. Rose the MVP at 6.

Good point. I can't believe I forgot him! 2011: 1) LeBron 2) Howard 3) Kobe 4) Wade 5) Dirk 6) Rose.


Nah. From 97-98 Pippen had a pretty decent midrange game. And could shoot the three, albeit with the shortened line. In the late 90s, pull up transition threes were a big part of his game.

Plus he had a good post game later in his career.

I can't take any Kawhi stats at face value. Any superstar would have their stats spike if they took 20 games off a year.

[97 bulls]

What I've always found ironic, is that for all these people that like to poke holes in Pippen for what they perceive as him failing (scoring at the level of Jordan or taking basically the same team minus Jordan to a Championship), will never see that the expectations levied on Pip have never been bestowed upon the players many feel are much better than him. Ewing, Barkley, Wlkins. Hell even Bryant and Shaq had a lot of time and opportunity to fail and get it right. Not literally a season and a half.

It took Shaq almost 10 years to win a title. And he had supremely talented teams. Kobe was a joke as a leader before Gasol came along. Barkely just didnt have it in him. But he had a whole career to try to find it.

And let's not forget. Pip didnt take a year off. That seven and six game game ECSF series vs the Knicks and Magic was the shortest seasons he played over 10 years. Every other year he played in to June or late May.

Theres no doubt that a healthy Pippen stats are much better than what we saw. Why do we penalize him for playing hurt? Not to mention the mental fatigue from having to defend the Championship year after year. And two Olympic appearances as well.

I guess what I'm saying is, why do we have such high expectations on a player that wasnt expected to do that much? But such a low bar on players that failed? Even though they had a lot more opportunities.

[SouBeachTalents]

Good point. I can't believe I forgot him! 2011: 1) LeBron 2) Howard 3) Kobe 4) Wade 5) Dirk 6) Rose.



Plus he had a good post game later in his career.

I can't take any Kawhi stats at face value. Any superstar would have their stats spike if they took 20 games off a year.
Bruh Kobe was not better than Wade or Dirk in 2011 :lol

[Rico2016]

What I've always found ironic, is that for all these people that like to poke holes in Pippen for what they perceive as him failing (scoring at the level of Jordan or taking basically the same team minus Jordan to a Championship), will never see that the expectations levied on Pip have never been bestowed upon the players many feel are much better than him. Ewing, Barkley, Wlkins. Hell even Bryant and Shaq had a lot of time and opportunity to fail and get it right. Not literally a season and a half.

It took Shaq almost 10 years to win a title. And he had supremely talented teams. Kobe was a joke as a leader before Gasol came along. Barkely just didnt have it in him. But he had a whole career to try to find it.

And let's not forget. Pip didnt take a year off. That seven and six game game ECSF series vs the Knicks and Magic was the shortest seasons he played over 10 years. Every other year he played in to June or late May.

Theres no doubt that a healthy Pippen stats are much better than what we saw. Why do we penalize him for playing hurt? Not to mention the mental fatigue from having to defend the Championship year after year. And two Olympic appearances as well.

I guess what I'm saying is, why do we have such high expectations on a player that wasnt expected to do that much? But such a low bar on players that failed? Even though they had a lot more opportunities.

Great post, great thoughts, great questions. I actually dislike Jordan a little less now because of you. 3ball was killing MJ's legacy, you are making MJ great again.

[Rico2016]

Bruh Kobe was not better than Wade or Dirk in 2011 :lol

Agreed, Wade in 2011 was the end of his peak and his low peak is better than Kobe's low peak.

[97 bulls]

Great post, great thoughts, great questions. I actually dislike Jordan a little less now because of you. 3ball was killing MJ's legacy, you are making MJ great again.

Thanks Bro. I just dint get it. I mean, how many NBA players and coaches are needed to actually acknowledge Pips greatness?

What is Rodman gonna get for calling Pip the second best player? Or Kerr. Or all the GMs?

Or Jordan for that matter. I mean, we dont know him personally, but if he really believed Scottie Pippen was a scrub that he had to carry night in and out, do you think he'd be singing his praises today?

[FireDavidKahn]

DAMN. First Scottie says LeBron was the GOAT and now Rodman saying the Pippen was the best in 93/94/95

:roll:

https://i.imgur.com/aaB1B1Q.jpg

[97 bulls]

Just to add on as to What Jackson said Jordan felt about Pip during the 92 Olympics. Here is Chuck Dalys quote
I remember talking to the late Chuck Daly after that 1992 Dream Team and Daly raving about Pippen. Daly said he knew Pippen was a potential MVP candidate type player, but said Pippen was the best player on the 1992 team. “I know Michael’s the best player, but Pippen was the best player on that team,” admired Daly.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nba.com/amp/bulls/history/pippenhof_smith_100812.html

Now again, I ask. What benefit did Daly have by saying that? Mind you, his own player Isiah Thomas was blackballed off that team.

[97 bulls]

Heres what it boils down to. As far as stats? Pippen was solid. But impact and winning? Very few did it better.

It's why Russell was always ranked higher than Chamberlain.

I honestly feel that had Pippen been a little more selfish and maybe payed more attention to his stats as opposed to winning, he'd be respected by all of these people on here that knock him.

[Axe]

Russell was definitely a good team leader during his days.

[Real Men Wear Green]

he also couldnt shoot like him.

Kawhi has been damn near 50/40/90 at times.

dont think there's ever been a DPOY candidate that can shoot like that. Pippen certainly couldn't, his jumper was dead broke.
He was famous for his bankshot. If you watched him you would know that his shooting ability was fine, especially for his era. The three wasn't mandatory back then. All of the best scorers did their damage on twos.

[Smoke117]

Exactly.

SamuariSwish, Jordan himself said Pippen was the best player in the NBA in 1995.

For me Pippen peaked at 3rd in 94' behind Hakeem and Robinson. In 95' he fell to 4th as Shaq surpassed him. 96' 5th as MJ was back. 97' 5th again. 98', 92' he wasn't top 5 but was close. 91' top 10.

Yet we have people like 3ball saying he was Mo Williams or others saying Kyrie Irving was much better. He was a legitimate superstar, a MVP caliber player. He was similar to Ewing or Drexler at their peaks--players MJ stans love to tell us were great.

People don't realize how hard it is to be the best player. Guys like Barkley, K. Malone, KG, Dirk, West, Oscar, Isiah, Dr. J, D. Robinson all never got to #1. Many legends don't even get into the top 5. Reggie Miller or Dominique were never close to the top 5.

People forget how good he was during the first 2/3rds of the 96 season before injuries started piling up. He refused to sit, though, as they were going for the record. He was really beat up in the 96 playoffs, but ironically, led the entire playoffs in BPM. With someone like Pippen you can't just look at individual stats. He just made his teammates better and made the game easier for them and you can't qualify that in something like individual scoring. He has one of the greatest BBIQ's ever and just understood the game so well. There are plenty of players who scored a ton of points, but whose actual impact didn't come close to his. Someone like Carmelo Anthony comes to mind there. As far as being the best player... I'd say you can easily make a case for Kevin Garnett being the best player in 2004. He led the league in bpm, vorp, winshares, per and had a ridiculous 20.2 on/off. I'm curious as to who you think was better than him that season? He was super dominant that season and most of the guys in discussion in the early 2000s didn't have great seasons compared to what they had before.

[Real Men Wear Green]

DAMN. First Scottie says LeBron was the GOAT and now Rodman saying the Pippen was the best in 93/94/95

:roll:

https://i.imgur.com/aaB1B1Q.jpg
You do realize that that's basically MJ's retirement and rusty half-season?

[FireDavidKahn]

You do realize that that's basically MJ's retirement and rusty half-season?

Yes, exactly. MJ had the benefit of having the best player in the league (best for 3 years) playing next to him for his career. This peak just shows you how good Pippen really was.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Yes, exactly. MJ had the benefit of having the best player in the league (best for 3 years) playing next to him for his career. This peak just shows you how good Pippen really was.
One of the best, sure. Better than Olajuwon? Better than Shaq? Nonsense.

[bizil]

Umm no. Not even close in 1993. Wasn't even the best player at his own position that season. Old, post achilles tear Domonique Wilkins had a MONSTER season. Had a huge down year following the Olympics. Mike at 30 had to pick up his slack. Part of the reason they only won 57 games that year, besides pacing themselves.

1993

1) MJ
2) Barkley
3) Hakeem
4) Ewing
5) Nique

1994

1) Hakeem
2) D-Rob
3) IMO Shaq
4) Pippen
5) Ewing

1995

1) D-Rob
2) Hakeem
3) Shaq
4) K. Malone
5) Ewing

He's not even close in 1995 either. Hell, Mike came out of retirement / baseball for 1.75 years, and in only 17 games he CLEARLY was already the Bulls absolute best player.

Highest he EVER got on the MVP / Best Player ladder, is 3 or 4 depending how you rank him in the much praised 1994 season. Until that semis series against NY really exposed him yet again, in terms of being an alpha and a scorer. Much as it did the year prior, even with Jordan on the floor.

Right on the money! NO WAY was Pippen the best player AT ANY POINT in the league!!! The PF's and C's DOMINATED the top 5 players in the league at this time. It took a player on MJ's caliber to SUPERCEDE the guys like Dream, Shaq, Malone, Chuck, Ewing, and David. Once MJ bowed out for a while, NO perimeter players were gonna take the top slot. The bigs I named were too dominant. Pip as great as he was didn't have the alpha dog scoring ability TO BE the top player on the planet.

Pip was the MOST COMPLETE perimeter player in the world once MJ retired. So once Nique and Drexler regressed a bit, it enabled Pip to become the best perimeter player on in the world. But u GOTTA be a legit alpha dog to be the best player in the world though. Pip was the ultimate swiss army knife no doubt. And I give him credit, he redefined the 3 spot. Was the blueprint that G Hill and Bron built their games off of in the point forward sense. But Pip was NEVER the best player on the planet. Best all around AND the best player are two different things sometimes!

[Rico2016]

Right on the money! NO WAY was Pippen the best player AT ANY POINT in the league!!! The PF's and C's DOMINATED the top 5 players in the league at this time. It took a player on MJ's caliber to SUPERCEDE the guys like Dream, Shaq, Malone, Chuck, Ewing, and David. Once MJ bowed out for a while, NO perimeter players were gonna take the top slot. The bigs I named were too dominant. Pip as great as he was didn't have the alpha dog scoring ability TO BE the top player on the planet.

Pip was the MOST COMPLETE perimeter player in the world in the two way sense once MJ retired. So once Nique and Drexler regressed a bit, it enabled Pip to become the best perimeter player on in the world. But u GOTTA be a legit alpha dog to be the best player in the world though. Pip was the ultimate swiss army knife no doubt. But NEVER was the best player on the planet.

Dream had a fast peak, but lost in the first round like 9 times. Shaq didnt win shit until Goatbe in 2000. Ewing never won a damn thing. Drexler. Wow I just dont know anymore.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Dream had a fast peak
Are you capable of posting something other than garbage?

[Mr Feeny]

he also couldnt shoot like him.

Kawhi has been damn near 50/40/90 at times.

dont think there's ever been a DPOY candidate that can shoot like that. Pippen certainly couldn't, his jumper was dead broke.

Pippen wasn't as great as Kawhi offensively, ofcourse, but he played a in a tougher era. It isnt fair to compare the 2nd 3peat Pippen with a Kawhi who cant be hanchecked and plays with as much spacing as he does.

Pippen improved his 3 point shooting by the 2nd 3peat. He was streaky but when it went down, he was a threat.

[Axe]

Are you capable of posting something other than garbage?
I seriously doubt lol.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

He was never close. Iguodala with a post game would never be close to the best player in the league specially since Pip was nowhere as clutch as Iggy in big moments and often faltered and checked out/folded
Migraine.., Scottie?

Hakeem was easily the best player in that span and it's not close. It's a 3 year run only matched by MJ and Shaq

Players better than Pip in mid 90s

Hakeem
Robinson
Malone
Barkley
Ewing
Shaq
Payton
Stockton

Dudes like Grant, Penny, Zo peaked higher than Pip as well. Pip was a KJ/Mullin level player at best

In 94 Pips peak year as a player when he was supposedly an MVP contender, they were gonna go down 3-0 to the Knicks until Phil Jackson gave Toni Kukoc the last shot with Pip pouting on the bench like a little bitch and Toni won it with Pip crying like a ho and was a much more clutch player offensively than Pip in general. He hit so many game winners in the mid 90s and clutch shots specially the non MJ years. Toni had the 2nd best offensive skillset on the team behind Michael obviously

Oh and in that Knicks series Ewing was easily the best player and Pip wasn't even the best Chicago Bull of the series. He was outplayed by Horace Grant:roll::roll::hammerhead:

[Roundball_Rock]

People forget how good he was during the first 2/3rds of the 96 season before injuries started piling up. He refused to sit, though, as they were going for the record. He was really beat up in the 96 playoffs, but ironically, led the entire playoffs in BPM. With someone like Pippen you can't just look at individual stats. He just made his teammates better and made the game easier for them and you can't qualify that in something like individual scoring. He has one of the greatest BBIQ's ever and just understood the game so well. There are plenty of players who scored a ton of points, but whose actual impact didn't come close to his. Someone like Carmelo Anthony comes to mind there. As far as being the best player... I'd say you can easily make a case for Kevin Garnett being the best player in 2004. He led the league in bpm, vorp, winshares, per and had a ridiculous 20.2 on/off. I'm curious as to who you think was better than him that season? He was super dominant that season and most of the guys in discussion in the early 2000s didn't have great seasons compared to what they had before.

Good post. Pippen is a great test for people who look only at stats (usually only scoring). A player like him does a lot of things that don't show up in stats, and he scarified stats for the team. Carmelo is a good example for a guy who looks better on paper than on the court. I'll also nominate Kyrie, even though he isn't an elite scorer like Carmelo was. Look at all the hype he gets for being flashy but when has he ever been a MVP candidate? First team all-NBA? Yet I bet all the guys saying Pippen was a bum would say Kyrie is awesome.

People sleep on that 96' season. That was, until he got hurt, probably when he was closest to MJ.


Oh and in that Knicks series Ewing was easily the best player and Pip wasn't even the best Chicago Bull of the series. He was outplayed by Horace Grant

This is a false statement but then again this guy says Kevin Johnson was better than Pippen.

Ewing did outplay Pippen in the 94' series--but in 93' it was Pippen who was better.

One thing to note, the anti-Pippen crowd isn't giving you specific years. They are listing a bunch of names and saying "Barkley!" "Drexler!" as if players are the same each year. To be fair, a lot of them are MJ stans who didn't watch back then so they don't know those players' histories.

[Roundball_Rock]

It is interesting MJ stans are ripping Pippen. He is considered the second best perimeter player of that era. If Pippen is a bum (Iggy!), what does that say about MJ's era? This scrub was actually a MVP candidate?


One of the best, sure. Better than Olajuwon? Better than Shaq? Nonsense.

You could argue 94' over Shaq based on experience, leadership, etc. but not after that. The Barkley, Drexler, Payton, etc. stuff is weird, though. No one was saying Payton was a superstar in 94' and the other two weren't their previous MVP caliber selves after injuries.


Hakeem was easily the best player in that span and it's not close. It's a 3 year run only matched by MJ and Shaq

It was close. Hakeem vs. David Robinson was a close debate during those two years (in 93' MJ clearly was the best player and Barkley had a strong case for #2 along with Hakeem).

[TheCorporation]

Good post. Pippen is a great test for people who look only at stats (usually only scoring). A player like him does a lot of things that don't show up in stats, and he scarified stats for the team. Carmelo is a good example for a guy who looks better on paper than on the court. I'll also nominate Kyrie, even though he isn't an elite scorer like Carmelo was. Look at all the hype he gets for being flashy but when has he ever been a MVP candidate? First team all-NBA? Yet I bet all the guys saying Pippen was a bum would say Kyrie is awesome.

People sleep on that 96' season. That was, until he got hurt, probably when he was closest to MJ.



This is a false statement but then again this guy says Kevin Johnson was better than Pippen.

Ewing did outplay Pippen in the 94' series--but in 93' it was Pippen who was better.

One thing to note, the anti-Pippen crowd isn't giving you specific years. They are listing a bunch of names and saying "Barkley!" "Drexler!" as if players are the same each year. To be fair, a lot of them are MJ stans who didn't watch back then so they don't know those players' histories.

HIGH IQ, nice post

[Turbo Slayer]

Good post. Pippen is a great test for people who look only at stats (usually only scoring). A player like him does a lot of things that don't show up in stats, and he scarified stats for the team. Carmelo is a good example for a guy who looks better on paper than on the court. I'll also nominate Kyrie, even though he isn't an elite scorer like Carmelo was. Look at all the hype he gets for being flashy but when has he ever been a MVP candidate? First team all-NBA? Yet I bet all the guys saying Pippen was a bum would say Kyrie is awesome.

People sleep on that 96' season. That was, until he got hurt, probably when he was closest to MJ.



This is a false statement but then again this guy says Kevin Johnson was better than Pippen.

Ewing did outplay Pippen in the 94' series--but in 93' it was Pippen who was better.

One thing to note, the anti-Pippen crowd isn't giving you specific years. They are listing a bunch of names and saying "Barkley!" "Drexler!" as if players are the same each year. To be fair, a lot of them are MJ stans who didn't watch back then so they don't know those players' histories. What happened to Barkley in the mid 90s? Injuries? I never watched the NBA in the 90s. I am very curious and I want to expand my basketball knowledge.

[Roundball_Rock]

HIGH IQ, nice post

:cheers:


What happened to Barkley in the mid 90s? Injuries? I never watched the NBA in the 90s. I am very curious and I want to expand my basketball knowledge.

Back problems mainly but he also had knee, elbow, groin, and hamstring issues that season. Mid-season he injured his tendon and missed 17 games. Barkley even talked about retiring because his back issues during the 94' season. Since he got hurt around the all-star break, we can use the ASG splits to see the impact:

Barkley pre-ASG in 94': 24/12/5 on 53%
Barkley post-ASG in 94': 20/11/4 on on 47%
Barkley 93' (MVP): 26/12/5 on 52%

So he basically started out the season in his MVP-caliber form but fell off considerably after that. He was still a top 10 player but he was never top 5 again after 93'. Some of this was also aging--he turned 30 in 94'--so he was going to decline thereafter anyway but it is pretty clear Barkley in 94' wasn't the 93' or 90'' Barkley the anti-Pippen crowd wants you to think of.

[LostCause]

What happened to Barkley in the mid 90s? Injuries? I never watched the NBA in the 90s. I am very curious and I want to expand my basketball knowledge.

Google?

[Turbo Slayer]

:cheers:



Back problems mainly but he also had knee, elbow, groin, and hamstring issues that season. Mid-season he injured his tendon and missed 17 games. Barkley even talked about retiring because his back issues during the 94' season. Since he got hurt around the all-star break, we can use the ASG splits to see the impact:

Barkley pre-ASG in 94': 24/12/5 on 53%
Barkley post-ASG in 94': 20/11/4 on on 47%
Barkley 93' (MVP): 26/12/5 on 52%

So he basically started out the season in his MVP-caliber form but fell off considerably after that. He was still a top 10 player but he was never top 5 again after 93'. Some of this was also aging--he turned 30 in 94'--so he was going to decline thereafter anyway but it is pretty clear Barkley in 94' wasn't the 93' or 90'' Barkley the anti-Pippen crowd wants you to think of. Thanks. Putting this in my Google doc.

[Roundball_Rock]

Thanks. Putting this in my Google doc.

Cool. :cheers:

Round_Mound could probably give you more detail as Barkley is his guy.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

People conflate 93' Barkley with 94' Barkley. He got hurt and his production went down in the second half and he was never again the Barkley we saw before that. Barkley, Malone, Pippen all play the same position so we can get an idea how they were perceived via all-NBA voting. Pippen and Malone were the first team guys and Pippen finished ahead of Malone in all-NBA 2 of 3 years from 1994-1996.

They do that because of Barkley's postseason. In 10 games, dude averaged 28/13/5 on ~50/35/74 splits. Ya he may not have moved as well or was as fluid. Statistically though? He was on his MVP level. Pippen was better in the regular-season but Barkley coasted with injuries until the playoffs. And then seized control.

Pre 1995, I doubt any version of 90s Barkley would have led that choke vs Houston. He was spent on offense and it leaked into 96. Where he REALLY fell off.


In 95' his scoring went down because MJ came back and his stats took a hit across the board. He was scoring the same as 94' before MJ. He was top 20 in rebounding as a SF.

That's fair. But even then he unperformed in the 95 playoffs (19ppg on 44% shooting).

I don't blame Mike for Pippen laying bricks. If Scottie played like he did the year earlier, even with lower efficiency, Chicago probably goes all the way. They needed more scoring imo. That and rebounding. Lowkey I think that version of Jordan gets underrated. While 'rusty' he still averaged 30 on 48%FG :oldlol:


But hey we are at least having a reasonable debate in the real world, not comparing Pippen to Fisher, Mo Wiliams, or James Jones. :oldlol:

Yup.

[97 bulls]

The logic of some of these posters is maddening. So Pippen is a "scrub" because he didnt take a team to a Championship right? But a player like Barkley isnt a scrub even though he never led a team to a Championship? Simply because he scored more? The fact is that many of these great scorers were atrocious on defense. If Barkey was any kind of a defender, Hed have a ring.

I mean what are we arguing here? Pick a side and stick to it. You cant penalize Pippen by saying he didn't win without Jordan simply because he didnt score 25 PPG on 50% shooting. And say players like Barkley and Carmello Anthony were more talented and better when they didnt lead a team to a title either. Because they were shitty defenders.

Pippens impact on the game was just as if not more as Charles Barkley or a Carmelo Anthony. Because of his defense.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The logic of some of these posters is maddening. So Pippen is a "scrub" because he didnt take a team to a Championship right? But a player like Barkley isnt a scrub even though he never led a team to a Championship? Simply because he scored more? The fact is that many of these great scorers were atrocious on defense. If Barkey was any kind of a defender, Hed have a ring.

Whose calling Pippen a scrub though?


I mean what are we arguing here? Pick a side and stick to it. You cant penalize Pippen by saying he didn't win without Jordan simply because he didnt score 25 PPG on 50% shooting. And say players like Barkley and Carmello Anthony were more talented and better when they didnt lead a team to a title either. Because they were shitty defenders.

I don't know who you're directing this at, but I can do ALL of that. And keep doing it because history is on my side.

Magic didn't play defense. Barkley wasn't the best defender and neither is Curry. Hell, Bill Russell wasn't the best offensive player. They're still revered though. And by all accounts carried major impact, both in numbers and results.

[RogueBorg]

This is a false statement but then again this guy says Kevin Johnson was better than Pippen.

Ewing did outplay Pippen in the 94' series--but in 93' it was Pippen who was better.



Two things, Kevin Johnson was not better than Pippen, I know you didn't say it. But you did say Patrick Ewing was better than Pippen in 1993. No he wasn't. Not in the regular season and not in the post-season. Pippen wasn't a scrub, but this almost cult-like status he's being elevated to is out of control. I get it, the Branstans are doing it to elevate Lebron and the MJstans are knocking Pippen to elevate Jordan. What it's doing is lifting Pippen to a Jim Morrison type of cult-following. People nit-pick about every little thing players do to knock them down or elevate them. Why don't you all take a look at his first 3 post-season appearances and game 7 of his 4th. I remember them. He was horrible. If those years were on Jordan's resume you guys would have a field day. Pipp has a lot of warts on his resume you guys are turning a blind eye.

[97 bulls]

Two things, Kevin Johnson was not better than Pippen, I know you didn't say it. But you did say Patrick Ewing was better than Pippen in 1993. No he wasn't. Not in the regular season and not in the post-season. Pippen wasn't a scrub, but this almost cult-like status he's being elevated to is out of control. I get it, the Branstans are doing it to elevate Lebron and the MJstans are knocking Pippen to elevate Jordan. What it's doing is lifting Pippen to a Jim Morrison type of cult-following. People nit-pick about every little thing players do to knock them down or elevate them. Why don't you all take a look at his first 3 post-season appearances and game 7 of his 4th. I remember them. He was horrible. If those years were on Jordan's resume you guys would have a field day. Pipp has a lot of warts on his resume you guys are turning a blind eye.

People were bashing Pip waaaayyyyy before Lebron James came on the scene. The argument has stemmed because Jordan stans paint this narrative that Jordan won with little help from his team. Or in spite of his teammates. Like what you just did. Hence the 1-9 reference.

[97 bulls]

Whose calling Pippen a scrub though?



I don't know who you're directing this at, but I can do ALL of that. And keep doing it because history is on my side.

Magic didn't play defense. Barkley wasn't the best defender and neither is Curry. Hell, Bill Russell wasn't the best offensive player. They're still revered though. And by all accounts carried major impact, both in numbers and results.

Magic led teams to Championship wins. So has Curry. I brought up guys that were great offensively and didnt get it done. But are considered better than Pippen.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Magic led teams to Championship wins. So has Curry. I brought up guys that were great offensively and didnt get it done. But are considered better than Pippen.

Neither has Pippen dude.

Giving him that kind of credit is wacky.

[bizil]

The MAIN REASONS that Pip is a legend is because of his positional versatilty and floor game. Could play and defend four different positions at a very high level. And LEGIT was great at passing, defending, and rebounding his position. BUT here's the thing.... IN NBA history, u have legends whose floor game and positional versatility is JUST AS GOOD OR CLOSE! BUT on top of all that, they are legit alpha dog scorers on top of it. Saying this ISN'T HATING!

It's not ABOUT Pip's PPG so much. Guys like Magic and Isiah averaged under 20 PPG for their careers. And for MOST SEASONS in their career, averaged under 20 PPG. BUT they were pass first PG's who DOMINATED games scoring when it was time. At the DROP OF A HAT, they could switch their mindset and become dominant scorers. If u know the game of hoops, u know guys who average 18-21 PPG who AREN'T alpha dog scorers. And u ALSO know guys who average 18-21 PPG who are among the most lethal scorers in the world. There's a DIFFERENCE!

[Roundball_Rock]

They do that because of Barkley's postseason. In 10 games, dude averaged 28/13/5 on ~50/35/74 splits.

Small sample sizes will always be more inconsistent. His stats were inflated by going 37/13/6 on 61% against the Warriors in the first round. Against Houston he was down to 23/13/4 on 46% as Kevin Johnson outscored him.


But even then he unperformed in the 95 playoffs (19ppg on 44% shooting).

He was even worse for the playoffs as a whole so I assume you mean the Orlando series. He did average 19 ppg but that came with 10 boards as a SF and 6 assists. A lot of the Bulls' stats nosedived when MJ came in. He came out the blue so late they couldn't adjust as MJ suddenly was consuming 24 shots a game in the season and 25 a game in the playoffs. The next year when they had time to adapt Pippen arguably was having his best season before late season injuries.

If Pippen played at his full season level in the 95' playoffs maybe they go all the way but I'm not sure. Their biggest problems were rebounding and interior defense. Pippen upped it to 10 boards a game. I don't think you are going to get much more from a SF and he didn't have the size to defend Shaq. That's why they needed Rodman to play the Grant role.


Lowkey I think that version of Jordan gets underrated. While 'rusty' he still averaged 30 on 48%FG

It always amuses me because his stats across the board were better in the 95' playoffs than any of the next three years. The "rusty" stuff is used as an excuse because they don't want to acknowledge they needed a Rodman or Grant to win.


Two things, Kevin Johnson was not better than Pippen, I know you didn't say it. But you did say Patrick Ewing was better than Pippen in 1993. No he wasn't. Not in the regular season and not in the post-season.

No I did not. Ewing was better in 93', Pippen in 94' and thereafter.


So Pippen is a "scrub" because he didnt take a team to a Championship right? But a player like Barkley isnt a scrub even though he never led a team to a Championship?

It is funny because the same people ripping Pippen are the same people who hype Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Drexler, Payton because they played against, not with MJ. Barkley and Malone were better than Pippen but Pippen consistently is higher on the all-time lists than Ewing, Drexler, and Payton. If Pippen is a bum, like MJ stans say, what does that say about MJ's comp?


I get it, the Branstans are doing it to elevate Lebron and the MJstans are knocking Pippen to elevate Jordan

LeBron didn't even play until the 2004 season. Why is everything boiled down to LeBron? Pippen was a popular 90s players. Why is it not within the realm of possibility that guys like me and 97 simply happen to be Pippen fans?


Why don't you all take a look at his first 3 post-season appearances and game 7 of his 4th. I remember them. He was horrible. If those years were on Jordan's resume you guys would have a field day

His stats are misleading for his second season because of a game where he played exactly 1 minute. So it counts as a game played but he gets 0s across the board. By 90' he was 19/7/6 (probably similar numbers in 89' when you take the 1 minute game out). Not exactly "horrible."

[Roundball_Rock]

Pipp has a lot of warts on his resume you guys are turning a blind eye.

So does every player. It is interesting we get chapter and verse on all of Pippen's but never for his teammate...


People were bashing Pip waaaayyyyy before Lebron James came on the scene. The argument has stemmed because Jordan stans paint this narrative that Jordan won with little help from his team

Exactly. Now Pippen is supposedly a tool of LeBron stans. 10 years ago you and I were called closet Kobe stans on ISH for being Pippen fans. Pippen has fans and they get annoying when they see MJ stans out there every day saying he sucked.


Neither has Pippen dude.

True, but isn't it funny how Magic gets full credit for his sidekick rings, as does Kobe, but Pippen doesn't?

[DoctorP]

rodman sucked Kim Jung c ock

[RogueBorg]

. By 90' he was 19/7/6 (probably similar numbers in 89' when you take the 1 minute game out). Not exactly "horrible."

No, but what plagued him AT THAT TIME was the wart game 7 of the 1990 ECF, the migraine. Detroit players even talk about it to this day, until Scottie arrives, the Bulls weren't beating them. They knew if they beat up Pipp they win the series. But people here acting like Pippen wasn't part of the beatings at the hands of Detroit, and all of sudden appeared in 1991 and the Bulls started winning. Horace Grant deserves alot of blame to. He shot 3-17 from the field for 10 points in the migraine game.

[AirBonner]

No, but what plagued him AT THAT TIME was the wart game 7 of the 1990 ECF, the migraine. Detroit players even talk about it to this day, until Scottie arrives, the Bulls weren't beating them. They knew if they beat up Pipp they win the series. But people here acting like Pippen wasn't part of the beatings at the hands of Detroit, and all of sudden appeared in 1991 and the Bulls started winning. Horace Grant deserves alot of blame to. He shot 3-17 from the field for 10 points in the migraine game.

MJ molded Pippen but he somehow couldn’t mold his offense

[Roundball_Rock]

The stats I posted include that game. Pippen did suck that game but he said he couldn't play because of blurred vision (he couldn't tell the jerseys apart). MJ basically bullied him into playing. It is rich then to see MJ stans complain about that performance forevermore with no accountability for MJ's role.

Grant sucked, Pippen sucked. So when the team wins it is all MJ; when they lose it is everybody else?

How about Game 3 of the 93' ECF? Bulls down 0-2 and MJ shots 17% but the rest of the team shows up. We never hear about MJ's bad games.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Small sample sizes will always be more inconsistent. His stats were inflated by going 37/13/6 on 61% against the Warriors in the first round. Against Houston he was down to 23/13/4 on 46% as Kevin Johnson outscored him.

Maybe so, but if not for the playoffs, James Harden would be viewed as the best player. Over the last 2 or 3 years.

Barkley's 94 playoff stats look as good as his 93 numbers. More points and even better efficiency.


He was even worse for the playoffs as a whole so I assume you mean the Orlando series. He did average 19 ppg but that came with 10 boards as a SF and 6 assists. A lot of the Bulls' stats nosedived when MJ came in. He came out the blue so late they couldn't adjust as MJ suddenly was consuming 24 shots a game in the season and 25 a game in the playoffs. The next year when they had time to adapt Pippen arguably was having his best season before late season injuries.

Yeah. I'm talking about the postseason. Even with Pippen's poor shooting not having a guy like Rodman hurt them. Worm is STILL underappreciated. Not a lot offense there, but the defense? Rebounding? Athletic ability? The overall toughness? Guy helped Chicago become the most feared team alive.


If Pippen played at his full season level in the 95' playoffs maybe they go all the way but I'm not sure. Their biggest problems were rebounding and interior defense. Pippen upped it to 10 boards a game. I don't think you are going to get much more from a SF and he didn't have the size to defend Shaq. That's why they needed Rodman to play the Grant role.

It wouldn't hurt them. Outside of Jordan though there wasn't a lot of scoring. Some of that is limited time integrating Mike in their offense. Maybe a bit of confusion with roles there. But in the end, it came down to their firepower, or lack there of. The rebounding problem was talked about A LOT after that series from what I can remember.


It always amuses me because his stats across the board were better in the 95' playoffs than any of the next three years. The "rusty" stuff is used as an excuse because they don't want to acknowledge they needed a Rodman or Grant to win.

Yeah. Mike's rhythm could've been off. His TIMING might not have been where he wanted it to be either. Funny thing is though, I think dude was more athletic in that playoff run than ANY games from 97-98. Some of 96 too.


True, but isn't it funny how Magic gets full credit for his sidekick rings, as does Kobe, but Pippen doesn't?

Its a double standard. Can't speak for everyone, but Pippen is definitely the best sidekick of all time. 1a/b with 2000 Kobe. I view 01 and later versions of Bean as a "second option" superstar.

[97 bulls]

The MAIN REASONS that Pip is a legend is because of his positional versatilty and floor game. Could play and defend four different positions at a very high level. And LEGIT was great at passing, defending, and rebounding his position. BUT here's the thing.... IN NBA history, u have legends whose floor game and positional versatility is JUST AS GOOD OR CLOSE! BUT on top of all that, they are legit alpha dog scorers on top of it. Saying this ISN'T HATING!

It's not ABOUT Pip's PPG so much. Guys like Magic and Isiah averaged under 20 PPG for their careers. And for MOST SEASONS in their career, averaged under 20 PPG. BUT they were pass first PG's who DOMINATED games scoring when it was time. At the DROP OF A HAT, they could switch their mindset and become dominant scorers. If u know the game of hoops, u know guys who average 18-21 PPG who AREN'T alpha dog scorers. And u ALSO know guys who average 18-21 PPG who are among the most lethal scorers in the world. There's a DIFFERENCE!

And again. These guys had like 10 years to succeed. Pip had 1 because hes in Jordan's shadow. How do you know he couldn't have had 1 epic playoff run in his career? My argument has always been that Pip is being penalized for something he never had a fair opportunity to do. I mean the man averaged 24 ppg in 94 against two damn good defenses. And he didnt have a "sidekick" that could take some pressure off him like others have had.

I know I keep harping on Barkley. But I assume you feel he had that drop of the hat scorers mentality. Why didnt he win a championship? Or Drexler? Or Malone?

[RRR3]

Kuniva, I have to ask

If Rodman played today, you think a high percentage of his shots would be 3s? He took occasional 3s back then and it wasn't considered "kosher" for 4s and 5s to do it for the most part then, so I'm wondering if you think he'd try to be a 3 and d guy now.

I feel like he'd have to or he'd clog the paint (unless he was playing with a stretch 5).

[97 bulls]

So does every player. It is interesting we get chapter and verse on all of Pippen's but never for his teammate...



Exactly. Now Pippen is supposedly a tool of LeBron stans. 10 years ago you and I were called closet Kobe stans on ISH for being Pippen fans. Pippen has fans and they get annoying when they see MJ stans out there every day saying he sucked.



True, but isn't it funny how Magic gets full credit for his sidekick rings, as does Kobe, but Pippen doesn't?
I see not much has changed. Good to see you still around though

[97 bulls]

The stats I posted include that game. Pippen did suck that game but he said he couldn't play because of blurred vision (he couldn't tell the jerseys apart). MJ basically bullied him into playing. It is rich then to see MJ stans complain about that performance forevermore with no accountability for MJ's role.

Grant sucked, Pippen sucked. So when the team wins it is all MJ; when they lose it is everybody else?

How about Game 3 of the 93' ECF? Bulls down 0-2 and MJ shots 17% but the rest of the team shows up. We never hear about MJ's bad games.

Theres been a few times when the team stepped up cuz MJ visibly didn't have it. Game 6 of the 97 when Jackson sat all the starters but Pip including MJ. And the Bulls got back in it. And the 4th quarter of the 92 finals when Jackson sat the starters other than Pip. And they came back and won.

[Turbo Slayer]

Theres been a few times when the team stepped up cuz MJ visibly didn't have it. Game 6 of the 97 when Jackson sat all the starters but Pip including MJ. And the Bulls got back in it. And the 4th quarter of the 92 finals when Jackson sat the starters other than Pip. And they came back and won.

Can you debunk the false narrative of "MJ was 1-9 before Pippen?"

I would love to hear your take/opinion on this topic.

[SATAN]

Theres been a few times when the team stepped up cuz MJ visibly didn't have it. Game 6 of the 97 when Jackson sat all the starters but Pip including MJ. And the Bulls got back in it. And the 4th quarter of the 92 finals when Jackson sat the starters other than Pip. And they came back and won.

This.

[97 bulls]

Can you debunk the false narrative of "MJ was 1-9 before Pippen?"

I would love to hear your take/opinion on this topic.

It's not that Jordan being 1-9 before Pip is false. The problem is why his record before Pip is always brought up. The argument is that Jordan won with little and even in some cases absolutely no help. That you can put any combination of run of the mill to solid players around him and hed find some way to win. So the question is why didnt he donit before Pip came?

I dont see Jordans playoff record before Pippen being an indictment against him because they were solid to run of the mill players. Orlando Woolridge and Charles Oakley were very good basketball players Paxson was there. Why didnt they win? I'd even go so far as to say that Oakley might been more impactful than Grant.

The fact is that Jordan was young. And Woolridge was a solid player while Pippen was a perennial top 5 player.

[Round Mound]

I would not go as far as to say that Pippen was the best player in 93 94 95 but he was definetly top 10

From 93 to 95 i have the following players over Pippen:

1-MJ
2-Hakeem
3-Barkley
4-Malone
5-Robinson
6-Shaq
7-Ewing
8-Drexler
9-Pippen
10-Stockton
11-Payton

Honorable mentions Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Chris Mullin, Jason Kidd, Derrick Coleman, Mark Price, Kevin Johnson, Alonzo Mourning, Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller etc

[Axe]

It's not that Jordan being 1-9 before Pip is false. The problem is why his record before Pip is always brought up. The argument is that Jordan won with little and even in some cases absolutely no help. That you can put any combination of run of the mill to solid players around him and hed find some way to win. So the question is why didnt he donit before Pip came?

I dont see Jordans playoff record before Pippen being an indictment against him because they were solid to run of the mill players. Orlando Woolridge and Charles Oakley were very good basketball players Paxson was there. Why didnt they win? I'd even go so far as to say that Oakley might been more impactful than Grant.

The fact is that Jordan was young. And Woolridge was a solid player while Pippen was a perennial top 5 player.
They weren't even winning against the pistons until they had phil to coach them.

[Roundball_Rock]

I see not much has changed. Good to see you still around though

Likewise. :cheers:

Yeah, I come back after years and it's still the same nonsense from MJ stans.


And again. These guys had like 10 years to succeed. Pip had 1 because hes in Jordan's shadow. How do you know he couldn't have had 1 epic playoff run in his career?

Dirk is a good example. He was perceived one way his entire career until he had that 2011 run and everything changed. There were questions about Kobe without Shaq until he won, with Gasol, five years later. Pippen did not have a player of Gasol's caliber.

The comp people always bring up is Messier in hockey but people forget Messier didn't win the first year after Gretzky left either. Plus Gretzky left in a trade where they got value back for him. Jordan retired right before the season started.

One of the funny things is the people who dog Pippen for not winning in 94' are the same people who hype Ewing, Payton, Miller, Malone who had their entire primes to win as the best player and never did it.



Maybe so, but if not for the playoffs, James Harden would be viewed as the best player. Over the last 2 or 3 years.

Would he? A knock on him has always been his defense, even during the regular season. Harden is universally considered top 5 (even with the qualms about his playoffs, although his stats against GS were identical to Kawhi's but one choked and the other beasted?) and you have some people who will put him as high as 2nd or 3rd (partly depends on how much you think LeBron has declined). Giannis is #1 but Harden, LeBron, Davis, Luka can go in any order 2-5. Durant and Curry are hurt but last year Luka and Davis weren't in the mix and going back further you take out Giannis and add Westbrook. Harden has been right there in the top 5 conversation consistently in Houston.


Yeah. I'm talking about the postseason. Even with Pippen's poor shooting not having a guy like Rodman hurt them. Worm is STILL underappreciated. Not a lot offense there, but the defense? Rebounding? Athletic ability? The overall toughness? Guy helped Chicago become the most feared team alive.

Yup. It is no coincidence they always had a PF like that when they won, whether it was Rodman or Grant. It gets lost in the "MJ is back" narrative but that was the biggest factor in their 95' loss.


Some of that is limited time integrating Mike in their offense. Maybe a bit of confusion with roles there.

Yeah those were the problems, especially at the top end. So Pippen went from the #1 option to #2 and Kukoc #2 to #3 and Armstrong #3 to #4--but it affected everyone. The Bulls averaged 82 shots a game and MJ shows up and takes 24. Those 24 had to come from everyone. Look at their FGA per game in the season and the playoffs (keep in mind the season numbers include the hit from MJ in March and April):

Pippen: 16.7 to 13.1
Kukoc: 11.9 to 11.1
Armstrong: 10.9 to 7.9

Maybe if MJ came back in January instead of mid-March they could have had time to work out the kinks.


The rebounding problem was talked about A LOT after that series from what I can remember.

Me too, which is why it is funny that it is completely forgotten. It is boiled down to MJ being "rusty" now.

[Roundball_Rock]

It's not that Jordan being 1-9 before Pip is false. The problem is why his record before Pip is always brought up. The argument is that Jordan won with little and even in some cases absolutely no help. That you can put any combination of run of the mill to solid players around him and hed find some way to win. So the question is why didnt he donit before Pip came?

Well said. That is really what it boils down to. MJ stans go around saying MJ is the best because of his team success. They say if others were as good as MJ they would have had the same team success. When people point to his favorable team, injury, and competition circumstances, the MJ crowd will say he would have won anyway and that his team was not that good, other than him.

Note that they always talk about "6 rings" and "6-0" like it was destined no matter what. It's never "yeah he won 6 but maybe it would be 3 or 4 if things break differently." Plus it is always "Jordan won" or "Jordan wouldn't allow Game 7s" etc., never the team.

The natural response is if all this is true, where was Jordan before or after Pippen, Phil Jackson, the triangle offense, etc.?

[knicksman]

pippen is just an iguodala type. Not worth building around. Hes just lucky he played with mj whos unselfish that hes willing to sacrifice stats for the betterment of the team. Had he played with lebron, he would just be another nobody.

[TheCorporation]

pippen is just an iguodala type. Not worth building around. Hes just lucky he played with mj whos unselfish that hes willing to sacrifice stats for the betterment of the team. Had he played with lebron, he would just be another nobody.

Stick to trolling, leave your low IQ posts at the door. Real men are speaking

[Indian guy]

Breaking News: Athletes, be it former or current, say stupid shit all the time.

Pippen has 0 argument for league's best player from 93-95. He's not even Top 5 in '93.

[TheCorporation]

Breaking News: Athletes, be it former or current, say stupid shit all the time.

Pippen has 0 argument for league's best player from 93-95. He's not even Top 5 in '93.

He won 55 games in '94 missing his #1st option and winning 55 games, making 1st team all nba, and getting 3rd in MVP votes...

[Manny98]

How many players in the NBA could lead a cast of Horace Grant and a bunch of average players to 55+ wins

[aceman]

He won 55 games in '94 missing his #1st option and winning 55 games, making 1st team all nba, and getting 3rd in MVP votes...
Pippen also missed 10 games in 1994

[LAL]

How many players in the NBA could lead a cast of Horace Grant and a bunch of average players to 55+ wins

Then look up all the 55+ win teams in history.. After you're done looking up all the regular season heroes.. look up all the superstars with 4,5, 6 rings. Your boy isn't on that list. MJ has nothing to do with that. Lebron really tried man :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

The 93' stuff is disingenuous. Rodman probably meant 1993-1994 but MJ stans are glomming onto it to bring up 93', arguably his weakest prime regular season, instead of addressing Rodman's legitimate point about Pippen's peak years. Even if he wasn't #1 he was damn close.

[RogueBorg]

The 93' stuff is disingenuous. Rodman probably meant 1993-1994 but MJ stans are glomming onto it to bring up 93', arguably his weakest prime regular season, instead of addressing Rodman's legitimate point about Pippen's peak years. Even if he wasn't #1 he was damn close.

There's no way Pippen was better than Jordan in 1992'-'93. It's definitely '93-'94. Compared to '91-'92, '92-'93 Pippen took a step back in points, assists, fg percentage, free throw percentage. That being said, I don't believe the Bulls beat Phoenix without him.

[Roundball_Rock]

There's no way Pippen was better than Jordan in 1992'-'93. It's definitely '93-'94. Compared to '91-'92, '92-'93 Pippen took a step back in points, assists, fg percentage, free throw percentage. That being said, I don't believe the Bulls beat Phoenix without him.

Agreed and when people say he was the best (including MJ) they mean 94' and/or 95'.

Yeah Pippen was bothered by a nagging injury that season but he still put up 21/9/8 against Phoenix.

[Phoenix]

Conventional wisdom at the time was Scottie was the best 'non center' in the league. In the aftermath of MJs departure in 93 the centers took over the league. Hakeem, Admiral, Shaq. Pippen fairly could be called the best of anyone who wasn't in that class of center. Ewing was a slightly lesser version of the player we saw in 92 and 93, still a top flight player but I wouldn't have taken him over Pip in 94 all things considered. It's close either way. I don't think anyone else had a strong argument. Maybe Karl Malone? Barkley wasn't healthy in 94. If he was as he is in 93 he would have had another season on that level. Scottie was top 5 in 94 and 95 those years. Best? No.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Would he? A knock on him has always been his defense, even during the regular season. Harden is universally considered top 5 (even with the qualms about his playoffs, although his stats against GS were identical to Kawhi's but one choked and the other beasted?) and you have some people who will put him as high as 2nd or 3rd (partly depends on how much you think LeBron has declined). Giannis is #1 but Harden, LeBron, Davis, Luka can go in any order 2-5. Durant and Curry are hurt but last year Luka and Davis weren't in the mix and going back further you take out Giannis and add Westbrook. Harden has been right there in the top 5 conversation consistently in Houston.

Not gonna derail the topic here, but he absolutely would. In the regular-season, Harden has incredible advanced numbers. Great ORPM/ORAPM/PIPM and high efficiency for the volume. His defense has also gotten better these last few years. Either way, its not like 1-way players weren't ever considered BITW. As you know.

Far as the Kawhi and Harden comparison? To me its apples and oranges. On a surface level, you can look at their stats and come to that conclusion. I'd say watch last years Game 5 and 6 again. Vs the Warriors. Harden was horrible in Game 5, the moment Durant couldn't play. And in Game 6, at home, had multiple turnovers in the final minutes with large stretches where he was outclassed by Curry. Durant didn't play in that one either.

You might not classify that stuff with "choking", but I definitely do.


Me too, which is why it is funny that it is completely forgotten. It is boiled down to MJ being "rusty" now.

Shallow analysis no doubt. That's the problem with fanboys. They legit think 1 man can AND DOES everything.


Kuniva, I have to ask

If Rodman played today, you think a high percentage of his shots would be 3s? He took occasional 3s back then and it wasn't considered "kosher" for 4s and 5s to do it for the most part then, so I'm wondering if you think he'd try to be a 3 and d guy now.

I feel like he'd have to or he'd clog the paint (unless he was playing with a stretch 5).

They were pretty rare for Rodman even then. He usually took them in the final seconds when Chicago had all but the game won. Or when the Bulls were out of options. LITERALLY. Since everyone is doing it today, ya his percentage would go up. Naturally. Not gonna pretend I know the exact figure but it wouldn't be a whole lot bro. It wasn't in Dennis' makeup, and would be the first to tell you he couldn't shoot for shit.

I think peak Worm would be a cross between Adams and Draymond but on steroids and crack. Phil called him one of the greatest athletes he's ever seen. I don't disagree.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Conventional wisdom at the time was Scottie was the best 'non center' in the league. In the aftermath of MJs departure in 93 the centers took over the league. Hakeem, Admiral, Shaq. Pippen fairly could be called the best of anyone who wasn't in that class of center. Ewing was a slightly lesser version of the player we saw in 92 and 93, still a top flight player but I wouldn't have taken him over Pip in 94 all things considered. It's close either way. I don't think anyone else had a strong argument. Maybe Karl Malone? Barkley wasn't healthy in 94. If he was as he is in 93 he would have had another season on that level. Scottie was top 5 in 94 and 95 those years. Best? No.

Malone and Barkley were still in their primes and easily better than Pip.

LOL @ taking Pip over Ewing in 94. Guess u missed their series against each other when Pat was by far the best player of the series and nearly hit a gamewinner to go up 3-0 until Kukoc saved the Bulls with his gamewinner with Scottie pouting like a bitch on the bench. Horace Grant was the Bulls best player that series BTW

[Roundball_Rock]

LOL at this guy trying to say Grant was better than Pippen in that series.


Malone and Barkley were still in their primes and easily better than Pip.

I don't see Barkley on here, do you?

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1994

1) Pippen (forward) 94
2) Hakeem (center) 68
3) Malone (forward) 65
4) Stockton (guard) 56
5) Sprewell (guard) 29

Pippen crushed everyone in the voting. You can let Hakeem slide because he was at the same position as Robinson and that cost him a lot of votes. Robinson was considered on par with Hakeem at the time. However, look at Pippen's vote and compare that to the other forwards and guards. Karl Malone was a top 5 player for practically all of the 90's, right? Pippen crushed him 94-68 in the voting. No, Pippen playing SF and Malone PF was not a factor. All-NBA voting is done on a forward/center/guard basis. Several times in the 90's two PF's, especially Malone and Barkley, took the two forward spots on the first team.

A quick internet search revealed the following for his other peak seasons:


Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1995

1) Malone (F) 519
2) Robinson (C) 479
3) Pippen (F) 451
4) Stockton (G) 447
5) P. Hardaway (G) 394

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/12/sp...s-all-nba.html

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1996

1) Jordan (G) 113 (unanimous)
2) Pippen (F) 91
3) Hardaway (G) 90
4) Malone (F) 89
5) Robinson (C) 65

Since we know there were 113 voters Pippen received 81% of the vote. He got hurt during the final fifth of the season and his production declined so that surely cost him some votes. The margin between him and #3 and #4 would be greater if he didn't get hurt. Still, the guy gets hurt and averages 15 ppg for one-fifth of the season (21-22 ppg before that) and he still gets more votes than anyone not named Jordan.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/05/24/sp...tar-again.html

This is voting for the all-NBA team. Regarding the all-Defensive team, Pippen received the most votes in 1994. And in 1995. And in 1996. Yes, also in 1997. So to recap, these were his finishes during his peak:

All-NBA voting: 1st, 3rd, 2nd
All-Defensive voting: 1st, 1st, 1st

Scottie may never have been a top 5 player but if he wasn't he sure had a lot of people fooled at the time.


Either way, its not like 1-way players weren't ever considered BITW

Magic was. ;)

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Magic was. ;)



Either way, its not like 1-way players weren't ever considered BITW

Exactly :cheers:

If you just go by regular-season, '90 Barkley made a nice case for himself too.

[Roundball_Rock]

Exactly :cheers:

If you just go by regular-season, '90 Barkley made a nice case for himself too.

Misread since I was trying to respond to so many quotes in this thread. My bad!

Yeah people forget Barkley 90'. He may have been better then than he was during his MVP year.

[Phoenix]

Malone and Barkley were still in their primes and easily better than Pip.

LOL @ taking Pip over Ewing in 94. Guess u missed their series against each other when Pat was by far the best player of the series and nearly hit a gamewinner to go up 3-0 until Kukoc saved the Bulls with his gamewinner with Scottie pouting like a bitch on the bench. Horace Grant was the Bulls best player that series BTW

Pip and Ewing weren't matched against each other in that series. Ewing against the Bulls mediocre frontline comparing that to Pip going against the Knicks perimeter defenders with that frontline in the background isnt an apples to apples comparison. The black mark on Scottie that year was the sit-out, admittedly that marred what was otherwise an MVP caliber season but to act like he wasn't in the discussion for top 5 that year is crazy. Or top 6, or top 7. Whatever. After Hakeem, Shaq and Admiral its up for debate who came immediately after them.

[97 bulls]

Malone and Barkley were still in their primes and easily better than Pip.

LOL @ taking Pip over Ewing in 94. Guess u missed their series against each other when Pat was by far the best player of the series and nearly hit a gamewinner to go up 3-0 until Kukoc saved the Bulls with his gamewinner with Scottie pouting like a bitch on the bench. Horace Grant was the Bulls best player that series BTW

Easily better than Pip how?!!!!! What were they doing that allows you to make this claim??

[Phoenix]

Yeah people forget Barkley 90'. He may have been better then than he was during his MVP year.

Barkley not getting MVP that year was more media backlash because of his off court stuff. He easily could/should have won that year.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pip and Ewing weren't matched against each other in that series. Ewing against the Bulls mediocre frontline comparing that to Pip going against the Knicks perimeter defenders with that frontline in the background isnt an apples to apples comparison. The black mark on Scottie that year was the sit-out, admittedly that marred what was otherwise an MVP caliber season but to act like he wasn't in the discussion for top 5 that year is crazy. Or top 6, or top 7. Whatever. After Hakeem, Shaq and Admiral its up for debate who came immediately after them.

Exactly. It is also funny that he is acting like Ewing had some great series and Pippen sucked. They both averaged 23 PPG. Ewing had better percentages, but he was a C against weak centers while Pippen faced the same defenders who held MJ to 40% the previous year.


Barkley not getting MVP that year was more media backlash because of his off court stuff. He easily could/should have won that year.

That was a factor but Magic got credit for keeping the Lakers going without Kareem, although by Kareem's 20th season he was a 10 PPG guy.

Barkley actually got more first place votes than Magic but lost under the weird system where you get five votes and rank MVPs 1 to 5.

[Smoke117]

The best of Scottie Pippen early career highlights (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8_GiznzWbk)

The mixture of athleticism and length was just beautiful to watch in those early days. He'd become a better and stronger player, but he was just flat out explosive in those first 5 years.

[Turbo Slayer]

The best of Scottie Pippen early career highlights (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8_GiznzWbk)

The mixture of athleticism and length was just beautiful to watch in those early days. He'd become a better and stronger player later on, but he was never as flat out explosive as he was in the first 5 years of his career. That pass at 0:10 tho!

[Roundball_Rock]

Now we are told he wasn't a superstar yet other stars wanted to be him?

If you could be any other player here who would it be?

It was a question I'd asked 12 years ago to Dream Team III: Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley, Penny Hardaway, Gary Payton, Shaq.

Their answers lent insight into which players they respected, whose game they feared. Back then Scottie Pippen's name came up the most. Five out of the 12 players on that team wanted to be, even if for one game, Jordan's Green Hornet. When asked, "Why Pip?" it was Miller who explained it best: "Because Pippen can score only five points and still dominate a basketball game."

https://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/090216

[ELITEpower23]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ExemplaryCheapCapybara-max-1mb.gif
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ExemplaryCheapCapybara-max-1mb.gif

[3ball]

You know 3ball is fcking DYING inside not being able to respond to this thread :oldlol:


You guys call me crazy but Rodman was ACTUALLY crazy - 95' Pippen had a bum .500 team before MJ came back to carry him to another 3-peat..

94' Pippen peaked at 22 and 5 assists, while bowing down to Ewing in the playoffs with historic chokes/blunders - Kukoc led the team in playoff BPM and 3 teammates beat Pippen in WS/48.

93' Pippen had a horrible season, including zero votes for DPOY (MJ was #2) - he also had a 2.0 playoff BPM with lower PER, WS/48 and pace-adjusted scoring than 14' Wade, and lower than 13' Wade across the board (BPM, VORP, PER, WS/48).

[Shooter]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ExemplaryCheapCapybara-max-1mb.gif
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ExemplaryCheapCapybara-max-1mb.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ExemplaryCheapCapybara-max-1mb.gif
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ExemplaryCheapCapybara-max-1mb.gif

dey know

[3ball]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ExemplaryCheapCapybara-max-1mb.gif
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ExemplaryCheapCapybara-max-1mb.gif

dey know




History knows:




13' Wade. Playoffs...... 18.7 PER.. 3.0 bpm.. 1.0 vorp.. 0.108 ws/48
93' Pippen Playoffs'.... 16.9 PER.. 2.0 bpm.. 0.8 vorp.. 0.083 ws/48

94' Ewing. ECSF.... 23/12 on 53%
94' Pippen ECSF..... 22/8 on 41%

14' Wade. ECF........ 20 and 5 apg... 47% (1b to bron's 22 ppg)
95' Pippen ECSF'.... 19 and 6 apg... 41%



Comparing sidekick help while trying to 3-peat



14' Wade Playoffs...'.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen Playoffs... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


Per 100 Possessions

14' Wade...'.. 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg



TLDR: Rodman is off his rocker
.

[Shooter]

History knows:




13' Wade. Playoffs...... 18.7 PER.. 3.0 bpm.. 1.0 vorp.. 0.108 ws/48
93' Pippen Playoffs'.... 16.9 PER.. 2.0 bpm.. 0.8 vorp.. 0.083 ws/48

94' Ewing. ECSF.... 23/12 on 53%
94' Pippen ECSF..... 22/8 on 41%

14' Wade. ECF........ 20 and 5 apg... 47% (1b to bron's 22 ppg)
95' Pippen ECSF'.... 19 and 6 apg... 41%



Comparing sidekick help while trying to 3-peat



14' Wade Playoffs...'.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen Playoffs... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


Per 100 Possessions

14' Wade...'.. 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg



TLDR: Rodman is off his rocker
.

2013 Wade scored fewer PPGz than the lowest Championship run Pippen ever had. And we haven't even addressed defense and rebounding.

[3ball]

2013 Wade scored fewer PPGz than the lowest Championship run Pippen ever had. And we haven't even addressed defense and rebounding.


13' Wade scored more pace-adjusted and was 1b in the Finals with 20 ppg (25 for lebron) - Pippen was never a 1b

Regardless, Pippen was never anywhere near the best player and was a liability from 88-90', 93', 96-03', and he choked in the 94' and 95' ECSF

[Sarcastic]

2013 Wade scored fewer PPGz than the lowest Championship run Pippen ever had. And we haven't even addressed defense and rebounding.

In the regular season, Wade's 21.2 ppg would be better than any Pippen season in a championship run. His 24 PER would also be an all time high for Pippen's entire career.

[2much_knowledge]

Dennis on hard drugs here

[97 bulls]

Dennis on hard drugs here

Did you actually read some of the comments? It wasn't only Rodman that felt this way.

[TheCorporation]

In the regular season, Wade's 21.2 ppg would be better than any Pippen season in a championship run. His 24 PER would also be an all time high for Pippen's entire career.

We're talking about the playoffs not regular season scoring. The only fans who care about that are Allen Iverson and Michael Jordan fans.

[TheMan]

He's right, Pippen was really that good. You just have these pathetic MJ stans trying to prop him down to make their hero look like he won with no help :facepalm

Prop him down? Is English your second language? It's prop him up or tear him down, dummy.

[mehyaM24]

he was never close to "best in the world" lol. that's reserved for players who can lead teams to a title. pippen was an all-time #2 who at times averaged #1 numbers.

[97 bulls]

he was never close to "best in the world" lol. that's reserved for players who can lead teams to a title. pippen was an all-time #2 who at times averaged #1 numbers.

Did he have a fair opportunity to accomplish that feat? I mean he took over a team that was built around a player whose style wasnt like his. And even then, it was for only a year and a half. Any other guy you name would have had about 5 to 10 years of attempts at leasing a team to a title.

But as as I told you in the other thread, Pippen was extremely highly regarded during his shirt stint. And this thread more than proves it. Stats never tell the whole story.

[97 bulls]

13' Wade scored more pace-adjusted and was 1b in the Finals with 20 ppg (25 for lebron) - Pippen was never a 1b

Regardless, Pippen was never anywhere near the best player and was a liability from 88-90', 93', 96-03', and he choked in the 94' and 95' ECSF

Pace cant account for the rule changes bro.

[mehyaM24]

Did he have a fair opportunity to accomplish that feat? I mean he took over a team that was built around a player whose style wasnt like his. And even then, it was for only a year and a half. Any other guy you name would have had about 5 to 10 years of attempts at leasing a team to a title.

But as as I told you in the other thread, Pippen was extremely highly regarded during his shirt stint. And this thread more than proves it. Stats never tell the whole story.

pippen had opportunities in 94, 99 & 2000. at those same ages, jordan led his teams to multiple rings. excuses only work for so long. stats are an indicator of your production. and pippen didn't produce like a guy capable of leading a team to a ring.

[97 bulls]

pippen had opportunities in 94, 99 & 2000. at those same ages, jordan led his teams to multiple rings. excuses only work for so long. stats are an indicator of your production. and pippen didn't produce like a guy capable of leading a team to a ring.

Pippen was 33 and 34 years old. And those teams werent built around him. I remember him complaining about the offense that was centered around Barkley and Olajuwan in Houston.

Pippen was past his prime in Portland. Prime Pippen on that Blazers teams bests the Lakers.

Stats dont tell the whole story. And Pippen was PG. That's why i keep telling you it's about impact. Look at the Wizards with Russell Westbrook and Bradley Beal this year.

[Indian guy]

:facepalm

Just reason #34343226664 why player evaluation from athletes is utterly useless. They don't have a clue.

If you read Rodman's Bad As I Wanna Be (1997), you'd also come out think rebounding is the single most important thing in basketball and that he's a better player than David Robinson.

In other words, athletes are stupid. Their opinions are rarely ever based on anything tangible, but entirely driven by ego, feelings, emotions and very selective memory.

[97 bulls]

:facepalm

Just reason #34343226664 why player evaluation from athletes is utterly useless. They don't have a clue.

If you read Rodman's Bad As I Wanna Be (1997), you'd also come out think rebounding is the single most important thing in basketball and that he's a better player than David Robinson.

In other words, athletes are stupid. Their opinions are rarely ever based on anything tangible, but entirely driven by ego, feelings, emotions and very selective memory.

So whose opinion should we respect? Dudes on the internet?

[Indian guy]

So whose opinion should we respect? Dudes on the internet?

Yes. An educated fan is 10x more knowledgeable than an athlete. And would certainly never say anything as retarded as Rodman here.

[mehyaM24]

Pippen was 33 and 34 years old. And those teams werent built around him. I remember him complaining about the offense that was centered around Barkley and Olajuwan in Houston.

Pippen was past his prime in Portland. Prime Pippen on that Blazers teams bests the Lakers.

Stats dont tell the whole story. And Pippen was PG. That's why i keep telling you it's about impact. Look at the Wizards with Russell Westbrook and Bradley Beal this year.

so was jordan when he won in 97 & 98. the teams not being "built around pippen" is empty pretext. houston underachieved & the blazers had enough to win it all, but choked. there are also stats that measure impact. most of them conclude that pippen was a great sidekick. as a lead dog though he simply fell short.

[97 bulls]

yes. An educated fan is 10x more knowledgeable than an athlete. And would certainly never say anything as retarded as rodman here.

gtfoh.

[scuzzy]

"and people didn't know that"


@3:45


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy4aEU5Swq4
:applause::applause:

[97 bulls]

so was jordan when he won in 97 & 98. the teams not being "built around pippen" is empty pretext. houston underachieved & the blazers had enough to win it all, but choked. there are also stats that measure impact. most of them conclude that pippen was a great sidekick. as a lead dog though he simply fell short.

Pippen ain't Jordan bro. And Jordan didnt have the milage Pippen had.

Nobody felt the Blazers were good enough to beat the Lakers. You're just throwing stuff out hoping something will stick.

I went back and found an article talking about Pippens tike in Houston. Here are some quotes from Pippen

It's been difficult for me," Pippen said. "It's going to be hard for me to find myself in this offense. They've built the offense around getting the ball in to Charles and Hakeem. For me to get shots, that's not going to happen often."We have to get everybody involved,"Pippen said. "We have to make the game fun for everybody. There are nights when things are not going right. It's time to go to somebody else and get somebody else involved.I'm frustrated," Pippen said. "Playing the minutes I'm playing, I'm not involved in the offense. It makes the game not fun anymore. My next step is to find why this organization wanted me."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pippen-frustrated-with-rockets/

[97 bulls]

I will say that Pippen was not the best player or even in the argument in 93. 94, 95, and 96? Its arguable.

[mehyaM24]

Pippen ain't Jordan bro. And Jordan didnt have the milage Pippen had.

Nobody felt the Blazers were good enough to beat the Lakers. You're just throwing stuff out hoping something will stick.

I went back and found an article talking about Pippens tike in Houston. Here are some quotes from Pippen

It's been difficult for me," Pippen said. "It's going to be hard for me to find myself in this offense. They've built the offense around getting the ball in to Charles and Hakeem. For me to get shots, that's not going to happen often."We have to get everybody involved,"Pippen said. "We have to make the game fun for everybody. There are nights when things are not going right. It's time to go to somebody else and get somebody else involved.I'm frustrated," Pippen said. "Playing the minutes I'm playing, I'm not involved in the offense. It makes the game not fun anymore. My next step is to find why this organization wanted me."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pippen-frustrated-with-rockets/

you're revising history again. portland was up 15 to start the 4th quarter. game 7, on the road, wcf. from the lakers vantage point, its one of the greatest comebacks in nba history. but many regard that quarter as one the biggest chokejobs. pippen was also the leader of that team, and fell short just like i said.

99 houston formed a big 3. just like 2011 miami did. lebron & wade took a while to adjust because their games were ALSO redundant. and like houston they ultimately underachieved. neither get an excuse, so quit making one.

[mehyaM24]

I will say that Pippen was not the best player or even in the argument in 93. 94, 95, and 96? Its arguable.

its not arguable at all. in 94 & 95 it was clearly hakeem. and in 96 it was clearly jordan. from 94-96, pippen was a top 10ish player just like his production indicates.

[97 bulls]

you're revising history again. portland was up 15 to start the 4th quarter. game 7, on the road, wcf. from the lakers vantage point, its one of the greatest comebacks in nba history. but many regard that quarter as one the biggest chokejobs. pippen was also the leader of that team, and fell short just like i said.

99 houston formed a big 3. just like 2011 miami did. lebron & wade took a while to adjust because their games were ALSO redundant. and like houston they ultimately underachieved. neither get an excuse, so not sure why you're making one. they don't get an excuse.

I cant be revising history if I post an article from 1999. You're saying Pippen was the best player on a team that had Olajuwan and Barkley right? They didnt cater to his strengths. Did you even read the article? They didnt use Pippens skillset. It's like using a Lamborghini to tow a boat. Not to mention the Rockets were old. Barkely was a lazy slob. They had name players. Their situation isn't the same as the Heat who had all their big 3 in their prime.

[mehyaM24]

I cant be revising history if I post an article from 1999. You're saying Pippen was the best player on a team that had Olajuwan and Barkley right? They didnt cater to his strengths. Did you even read the article? They didnt use Pippens skillset. It's like using a Lamborghini to tow a boat. Not to mention the Rockets were old. Barkely was a lazy slob. They had name players. Their situation isn't the same as the Heat who had all their big 3 in their prime.

the article you linked is common knowledge. pippen "not getting the ball enough" sounds like the struggles wade & lebron had. losing with a big 3 still means you underachieved though.

[97 bulls]

its not arguable at all. in 94 & 95 it was clearly hakeem. and in 96 it was clearly jordan. from 94-96 pippen was a top 10ish player. just like his production in indicates.

Again. That's YOUR opinion. I wouldn't pick him over Olajuwan in 94. I dont think I'd pick anybody over him in 95. Pippen was on the verge of winning MVP in 96 before he got hurt. He was definitely top 3 in 94-96. Even Max Kellerman said he only thought Olajuwan was better than Pippen in 94.

[97 bulls]

the article you linked is common knowledge. pippen "not getting the ball enough" sounds like the struggles wade & lebron had. not winning with a big 3 still means you underachieved though.

They were old bro. It's not the same thing. Put Pippen, Olajuwan, and Barkley on the same team in their late 20s like the Heat, and they run roughshod over the league.

[mehyaM24]

Again. That's YOUR opinion. I wouldn't pick him over Olajuwan in 94. I dont think I'd pick anybody over him in 95. Pippen was on the verge of winning MVP in 96 before he got hurt. He was definitely top 3 in 94-96. Even Max Kellerman said he only thought Olajuwan was better than Pippen in 94.

hakeem had the best stats, impact analytics & led his team to back 2 back titles. sure its my opinion, but my opinion is backed by facts. i don't smply go off winning however i know that you do. so what happened to "winning is all that matters"? hey when in rome though, right? lol


They were old bro. It's not the same thing. Put Pippen, Olajuwan, and Barkley on the same team in their late 20s like the Heat, and they run roughshod over the league.

ya and they still produced like stars. barkely was top 10ish in individual plus minus. hakeem had top 10 player efficiency etc. look, i was there & watched that team unfold. they didn't live up to their expectation.

[97 bulls]

hakeem had the best stats, impact analytics & led his team to back 2 back titles. sure its my opinion, but my opinion is backed by facts. i don't smply go off winning however i know that you do. so what happened to "winning is all that matters"? hey when in rome though, right? lol
You were comparing then to the Heat. The Heat were younger. Pippen stayed one year with the Rockets and even then, liken I keep telling you, the type offense they ran, wasnt in line with Pippens strengths. That's why I presented the example of using a Lamborghini to tow a boat. Or asking Olajuwan to run the point. They wanted Pippen to be a 3pt shooter.

I dont disagree with your assessment on Olajuwan. But you said Pippen at that time was 10ish. That's insane. I've asked you this question at least 5 times. Show me ANY PLAYER that did what Pippen did in 95. Lead his team in the 5 major categories, run the offense and anchor the number 2 defense with very little support. And still keep his team in playoff contention. Pippen was literally a one man show. No other player can make that claim. NONE!!!!

And yes I'm about winning. And also about context.

[mehyaM24]

You were comparing then to the Heat. The Heat were younger. Pippen stayed one year with the Rockets and even then, liken I keep telling you, the type offense they ran, wasnt in line with Pippens strengths. That's why I presented the example of using a Lamborghini to tow a boat. Or asking Olajuwan to run the point. They wanted Pippen to be a 3pt shooter.

I dont disagree with your assessment on Olajuwan. But you said Pippen at that time was 10ish. That's insane. I've asked you this question at least 5 times. Show me ANY PLAYER that did what Pippen did in 95. Lead his team in the 5 major categories, run the offense and anchor the number 2 defense with very little support. And still keep his team in playoff contention. Pippen was literally a one man show. No other player can make that claim. NONE!!!!

And yes I'm about winning. And also about context.

nah you're muddying the waters here. when you claim "winning is all that matters" that automatically removes context. there were plenty of counter-arguments and "context" posters laid out for you, but you disregarded it for winning. be consistent pal.

i also said top 10ish. hakeem was obviously number 1 from 94-95. which you already agreed with. after that i would take shaq, ewing, drexler, robinson, malone, barkley. and then there is a decent argument for reggie miller. with jordan coming back in 95, the highest i could go with pippen is top 8. from 94-96 that sounds about fair. and its generous too with the rise of guys like grant hill & penny hardaway.

[LAmbruh]

you can always tell the difference from real Bulls fans like 97 Bulls vs typical insecure Jordan stains

[Shooter]

you can always tell the difference from real Bulls fans like 97 Bulls vs typical insecure Jordan stains

100%

97bulls is a true, legitimate Bulls fan

3stain is just an MJ fan boy

Pitiful one too :lol

[Shooter]

5* thread

Free my boy Docs Orders

[97 bulls]

nah you're muddying the waters here. when you claim "winning is all that matters" that automatically removes context. there were plenty of counter-arguments and "context" posters laid out for you, but you disregarded it for winning. be consistent pal.

i also said top 10ish. hakeem was obviously number 1 from 94-95. which you already agreed with. after that i would take shaq, ewing, drexler, robinson, malone, barkley. and then there is a decent argument for reggie miller. with jordan coming back in 95, the highest i could go with pippen is top 8. from 94-96 that sounds about fair. and its generous too with the rise of guys like grant hill & penny hardaway.

I am consistent. Wade's Heat won in 06 and I question it due to context. I credit Pippen winning because he did it 6 times. I dont give a damn about "alpha ring". Especislly if you give players alpha blame.

As far as Pips rankings, your in the minority bro. Go back and read through this thread.

[97 bulls]

Thanks guys. I try to be unbiased.

[mehyaM24]

I am consistent. Wade's Heat won in 06 and I question it due to context. I credit Pippen winning because he did it 6 times. I dont give a damn about "alpha ring". Especislly if you give players alpha blame.

As far as Pips rankings, your in the minority bro. Go back and read through this thread.

pippen winning as a #2 is the context you're leaving out. winning is a bs premise because by your own admission, he isn't jordan.

again, the only poster wanting to rate him top 5 is you. nobody said that while it played out, especially during the playoffs.

[ClipperRevival]

Literally 90% of 97 Bulls posts is trying to prop up Pippen into someone he was not. You're not fooling anyone bro.

[2much_knowledge]

Never ever above Hakeem. Thats just disrespectful to the peak of an top 11 - 12 player ever


No way, no how. /thread

[97 bulls]

pippen winning as a #2 is the context you're leaving out. winning is a bs premise because by your own admission, he isn't jordan.

again, the only poster wanting to rate him top 5 is you. nobody said that while it played out, especially during the playoffs.

But that's the thing. Its nots just me bro. I ask again, did you read the information Roundball Rock put out? He was clearly top 2-3 over 94-96. Based on All NBA, MVP, All defense and DPOY voting. Not to mention what the players were saying. Rodman wasnt the only one that felt that way about Pippen.

[ELITEpower23]

you can always tell the difference from real Bulls fans like 97 Bulls vs typical insecure Jordan stains

Without question. It's very obvious to see who is a true Chicago Bulls fan (like 97 Bulls) and who is an MJ fanboy (like 3ball/Clipper Revival).

It's painfully obvious to anyone that knows the game like you and I.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Everybody in that Bulls locker room knew scottie was the man. They FOLLOWED pippen. Pippen was the leader of that team with or without Jordan

Stats won't tell you this

But Rodman will

[Pip' N Rodman]

:eek:

:banana:

[AlternativeAcc.]

:eek:

:banana:

:djparty:party:

[HoopsNY]

But that's the thing. Its nots just me bro. I ask again, did you read the information Roundball Rock put out? He was clearly top 2-3 over 94-96. Based on All NBA, MVP, All defense and DPOY voting. Not to mention what the players were saying. Rodman wasnt the only one that felt that way about Pippen.

Top 2-3 is a stretch when you consider Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Ewing, and Malone. Not to mention MJ returned in 1995 and played in 1996.

Ewing in 1994 beat Chicago with Pippen. In 1995, Ewing led his team to 55 wins and the #3 seed.

Barkley's impact in both 1994 and 1995 can't be ignored either.

Also, I'm putting Penny above Pippen those years. Pippen has the clear advantage in 1994 as Penny was a rookie, but Penny outplayed Pippen in the 1995 and 1996 playoffs with comparable regular season production.

Remember, it was Pippen that guarded Penny in the '96 ECF and Penny dominated him.

mehya has a point in that he's top 8, maybe 9 if you throw in Kemp. People forget how well Kemp would play in the playoffs against elite competition.

[ELITEpower23]

Everybody in that Bulls locker room knew scottie was the man. They FOLLOWED pippen. Pippen was the leader of that team with or without Jordan

Stats won't tell you this

But Rodman will

The Bulls discarded Jordan for Pete Myers and still won 55 games and could have made a Finals run if they got some type of upgrade for MJ instead of dirt nothing.

[Bawkish]

The Bulls discarded Jordan for Pete Myers and still won 55 games and could have made a Finals run if they got some type of upgrade for MJ instead of dirt nothing.

it's not healthy talking to yourself

seek help

[AlternativeAcc.]

The Bulls discarded Jordan for Pete Myers and still won 55 games and could have made a Finals run if they got some type of upgrade for MJ instead of dirt nothing.

Lebrons never played for a team that was even capable of winning 35 games without him

Levels to this GOAT shit my man.

[Axe]

Lebrons never played for a team that was even capable of winning 35 games without him

Levels to this GOAT shit my man.
What do you mean? Miami won 45+ games in 2010.

[AlternativeAcc.]

What do you mean? Miami won 45+ games in 2010.

Different team

Take lebron off in 2011 and that's a lottery squad imo

[3ball]

Lebrons never played for a team that was even capable of winning 35 games without him

Levels to this GOAT shit my man.


Wade and AD won 48 in their last full season before Lebron became their Pippen in 11' and 20', respectively.

Then Lebron left Miami when they were already underperforming every Western playoff team in 2014, aka lottery-caliber in the West (they lost to the West by record amount)..

Then the Heat missed the 15' playoffs by 1/2 game due to Bosh/Wade missing 40 games.. But in 2016, Wade led the Heat back to contention and was a playoff star again.

[3ball]

.
* Rodman is mad that he couldn't do shit with the league MVP in 1995 (Robinson)

* 95' Pippen had a .500 team before MJ returned to carry him to another 3-peat

* Pippen was bad in the playoffs for each of the 3 years that Rodman said Pippen was good:



13' Wade. Playoffs...... 18.7 PER.. 3.0 bpm.. 1.0 vorp.. 0.108 ws/48
93' Pippen Playoffs'.... 16.9 PER.. 2.0 bpm.. 0.8 vorp.. 0.083 ws/48

94' Ewing. ECSF.... 23/12 on 53%
94' Pippen ECSF..... 22/8 on 41%

14' Wade. ECF........ 20 and 5 apg... 47% (1b to bron's 22 ppg)
95' Pippen ECSF'.... 19 and 6 apg... 41%



Comparing sidekick help while trying to 3-peat



14' Wade Playoffs...'.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen Playoffs... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


Per 100 Possessions

14' Wade...'.. 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg



TLDR: Rodman is off his rocker

[97 bulls]

Top 2-3 is a stretch when you consider Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Ewing, and Malone. Not to mention MJ returned in 1995 and played in 1996.
It cant be a stretch if hes garnering more all-NBA votes than these players. Come on.


Ewing in 1994 beat Chicago with Pippen. In 1995, Ewing led his team to 55 wins and the #3 seed.

You're joking right? We gonna hold this against Pippen in that the Bulls lost their best player and go in to play their rival and they barely lose?


Barkley's impact in both 1994 and 1995 can't be ignored either.

Also, I'm putting Penny above Pippen those years. Pippen has the clear advantage in 1994 as Penny was a rookie, but Penny outplayed Pippen in the 1995 and 1996 playoffs with comparable regular season production.

Remember, it was Pippen that guarded Penny in the '96 ECF and Penny dominated him.

mehya has a point in that he's top 8, maybe 9 if you throw in Kemp. People forget how well Kemp would play in the playoffs against elite competition.

Hardaway did not dominate Pippen in 96. Look at Penny's FG% in each game. 71% in a 38pt blowout loss. 43%, 33, and 40%. Hardly dominant.

I obviously cant argue you guys perception of Pip. I think it's clear that you guys are more Jordan lovers that unbiased basketball fans. At the least you guys are revisionist. This doesnt apply to you Hoops. While I think you're a fair poster, I think you are trying to inflict your own personal view on what was perceived back then. And that's where you're wrong bro. The facts dont support your way of thinking.

[HoopsNY]

It cant be a stretch if hes garnering more all-NBA votes than these players. Come on.


You're joking right? We gonna hold this against Pippen in that the Bulls lost their best player and go in to play their rival and they barely lose?

How am I "holding" it against Pippen? The teams were evenly matched and Ewing and NY won. In addition, Ewing had a better year in 1995. What's so outrageous about that?


Hardaway did not dominate Pippen in 96. Look at Penny's FG% in each game. 71% in a 38pt blowout loss. 43%, 33, and 40%. Hardly dominant.


On paper, the games were a 2-2 split but anyone who watched Penny that series saw him outplay Pippen. In addition, some of the statistics are skewed because when Chicago switched MJ onto Penny, he rarely scored. It's a small sample size but the numbers are skewed a bit.


I obviously cant argue you guys perception of Pip. I think it's clear that you guys are more Jordan lovers that unbiased basketball fans. At the least you guys are revisionist. This doesnt apply to you Hoops. While I think you're a fair poster, I think you are trying to inflict your own personal view on what was perceived back then. And that's where you're wrong bro. The facts dont support your way of thinking.

I can't speak for the other posters, but I don't see how this is revisionist in the least. I was around back then, too, and right off the bat, Hakeem, Malone, Robinson, and Shaq get the nod unanimously over Pippen. Then you have MJ for a small sample in 1995 but definitely 1996. So that's 5 guys right there.

Ewing, Kemp, Barkley, and Penny are closer in rank, but it's not unfounded to put them over Pippen, collectively, for all 3 years.

Kemp was a 21/11 player on high efficiency. Did you see what he did to Malone, Rodman, and Hakeem in the paint in the playoffs? Seattle won 63, 57, and 64 games in that three year stretch. Granted, Kemp had GP. But Kemp's performances in the playoffs trump that of Pippen's.

I'm not sure what your argument is for Pippen decisively being better than Ewing in those years. Can you explain that?

[97 bulls]

How am I "holding" it against Pippen? The teams were evenly matched and Ewing and NY won. In addition, Ewing had a better year in 1995. What's so outrageous about that?

The Bulls barely beat the Knicks WITH Jordan. Now you're saying they shouldve beat their biggest competitors at the time without their best player? And I'm sure if I put let's say Latrell Sprewell or Hersey Hawkins on the 94 Bulls, then you'd say theh dont get any further because you want to protect Michael Jordan's legacy. The fact that they took the Knicks to 7 hard fought games, and one being lost in a controversial manner says a lot.


On paper, the games were a 2-2 split but anyone who watched Penny that series saw him outplay Pippen. In addition, some of the statistics are skewed because when Chicago switched MJ onto Penny, he rarely scored. It's a small sample size but the numbers are skewed a bit.

I watched that series. And I didn't come away thinking Penny outplayed Pip much less dominated him. And while I agree Jordan obviously checked Penny at times, Pippen was the main guy. Theres a website that was made to actually prop up MJ that even said Pippen guarded Penny most of time in 96. The website was made to squash the argument that Pippen always guarded the opposition's best scorer.


I can't speak for the other posters, but I don't see how this is revisionist in the least. I was around back then, too, and right off the bat, Hakeem, Malone, Robinson, and Shaq get the nod unanimously over Pippen. Then you have MJ for a small sample in 1995 but definitely 1996. So that's 5 guys right there.

Ewing, Kemp, Barkley, and Penny are closer in rank, but it's not unfounded to put them over Pippen, collectively, for all 3 years.

Kemp was a 21/11 player on high efficiency. Did you see what he did to Malone, Rodman, and Hakeem in the paint in the playoffs? Seattle won 63, 57, and 64 games in that three year stretch. Granted, Kemp had GP. But Kemp's performances in the playoffs trump that of Pippen's.

I'm not sure what your argument is for Pippen decisively being better than Ewing in those years. Can you explain that?

Look where they finished in MVP, All-NBA, DPOY, and All-Defense teams bro. Go back and read this thread. Roundball Rock plainly lays out why Pip was so highly regarded by his peers from 94-96. Even in the video, Max Kellerman called Pippen the 2nd best player after Olajuwan. And hes no Pippen fan.

[scuzzy]

97 Bulls taking these Jordan stans to class :applause:

[scuzzy]

:eek:

:banana:
:lebronamazed:

[Shooter]

Class is in session. We have a real Bulls fan here.

97 Bulls taking these Jordan stans to class :applause:

[mehyaM24]

But that's the thing. Its nots just me bro. I ask again, did you read the information Roundball Rock put out? He was clearly top 2-3 over 94-96. Based on All NBA, MVP, All defense and DPOY voting. Not to mention what the players were saying. Rodman wasnt the only one that felt that way about Pippen.

we can pullup cherry-picked quotes for most stars. thats not an argument dude. some of pippen's peers like shaq/barkley/webber don't believe he was that guy. others, like reggie for example, thought he was a great all-around player. it really depends on your source, although by most objective measures, pippen never produced like a top 5 guy. forget best in the world. again, that's with defense & postseason play accounted for.

shaq/drob/malone/barkley/jordan are all guys i'd take over pippen. and so would most gm's back then.


mehya has a point in that he's top 8, maybe 9 if you throw in Kemp. People forget how well Kemp would play in the playoffs against elite competition.

that's the reality here, hoops. top 8 is really generous when you start talking impact. bigmen ruled the scene in the 90s, and the only perimeter player who had bigman-like impact was jordan.

[HoopsNY]

The Bulls barely beat the Knicks WITH Jordan. Now you're saying they shouldve beat their biggest competitors at the time without their best player? And I'm sure if I put let's say Latrell Sprewell or Hersey Hawkins on the 94 Bulls, then you'd say theh dont get any further because you want to protect Michael Jordan's legacy. The fact that they took the Knicks to 7 hard fought games, and one being lost in a controversial manner says a lot.

I'm not sure what Jordan not being on the team has to do with it. The two teams were evenly matched. If Pippen was indeed the better player, then the combination of him and Grant should have proven to be successful. If we go by what you're saying, Pippen+Grant are the better combo than Ewing+Starks and resulted in a win.

But that didn't happen. Chicago lost and Ewing also had a better year the following season. So if he led his team to a higher seed in both 1994 and 1995, put up better numbers or at least comparable, and beat Pippen head to head while performing better, why would we just assume that Pippen > Ewing during that stretch of time?


I watched that series. And I didn't come away thinking Penny outplayed Pip much less dominated him. And while I agree Jordan obviously checked Penny at times, Pippen was the main guy. Theres a website that was made to actually prop up MJ that even said Pippen guarded Penny most of time in 96. The website was made to squash the argument that Pippen always guarded the opposition's best scorer.


Okay, I agree that he didn't dominate him, but he did outplay him. Pippen did guard Penny most of the time, which is essentially my point. He didn't shut down Penny and Penny did in fact have the better series. Not to mention, did you watch Penny in the '95 finals?

Penny put up 26/5/8 on 64% TS%. Penny's performance was better than Pippen's 1996 finals and anything Pippen did between 1994-96, on the biggest stage.

That of course is lost in the conversation and completely ignored.


Look where they finished in MVP, All-NBA, DPOY, and All-Defense teams bro. Go back and read this thread. Roundball Rock plainly lays out why Pip was so highly regarded by his peers from 94-96. Even in the video, Max Kellerman called Pippen the 2nd best player after Olajuwan. And hes no Pippen fan.

Kellerman is wrong. Pippen definitely doesn't rank higher than Robinson, Shaq, Malone, and MJ from 1994-96. And then there are a host of players who are better if not equal.

One thing you're forgetting is that MJ missed all of 1994 and most of 1995. Shaq missed a significant portion of 1995 and 1996. Penny was a rookie in 1994. And Barkley missed a lot of games as well between the three years (42 in total).

It makes sense that Pippen received more votes looking for various accolades as he was consistently healthy and played full seasons. You have to take that into consideration if you're going to look at voting. But that doesn't automatically mean he was the better player.

[Shooter]

The Bulls barely beat the Knicks WITH Jordan. Now you're saying they shouldve beat their biggest competitors at the time without their best player? And I'm sure if I put let's say Latrell Sprewell or Hersey Hawkins on the 94 Bulls, then you'd say theh dont get any further because you want to protect Michael Jordan's legacy. The fact that they took the Knicks to 7 hard fought games, and one being lost in a controversial manner says a lot.


I watched that series. And I didn't come away thinking Penny outplayed Pip much less dominated him. And while I agree Jordan obviously checked Penny at times, Pippen was the main guy. Theres a website that was made to actually prop up MJ that even said Pippen guarded Penny most of time in 96. The website was made to squash the argument that Pippen always guarded the opposition's best scorer.



Look where they finished in MVP, All-NBA, DPOY, and All-Defense teams bro. Go back and read this thread. Roundball Rock plainly lays out why Pip was so highly regarded by his peers from 94-96. Even in the video, Max Kellerman called Pippen the 2nd best player after Olajuwan. And hes no Pippen fan.

Fellow Jordan stains, read the above from a legitimate Bulls fan.

Class is in session.

[97 bulls]

we can pullup cherry-picked quotes for most stars. thats not an argument dude. some of pippen's peers like shaq/barkley/webber don't believe he was that guy. others, like reggie for example, thought he was a great all-around player. it really depends on your source, although by most objective measures, pippen never produced like a top 5 guy. forget best in the world. again, that's with defense & postseason play accounted for.
Barkley is on video calling Scottie Pippen the best player in the world in 95.


shaq/drob/malone/barkley/jordan are all guys i'd take over pippen. and so would most gm's back then.

Shaq was young, Jordan wasnt there, Pippen got more All NBA voted than Malone and Barkley at the time. That sounds like about 2-3 right? Definitely not 10ish


That's the reality here, hoops. top 8 is really generous when you start talking impact. bigmen ruled the scene in the 90s, and the only perimeter player who had bigman-like impact was jordan.

Bro. This isnt about my opinion or your opinion. It's a matter of how Pippen was regarded at that time. And you surely cant draw conclusions based on how 2 player played in 6 or 7 games.

[mehyaM24]

Barkley is on video calling Scottie Pippen the best player in the world in 95.

Bro. This isnt about my opinion or your opinion. It's a matter of how Pippen was regarded at that time. And you surely cant draw conclusions based on how 2 player played in 6 or 7 games.

barkley also thought pippen was selfish & couldn't lead a team. again, pippen was regarded different by various players. think of another argument, this one isn't working.

my opinion is also backed by facts aka production - playoffs included. yours isn't and that is the difference.

[97 bulls]

I'm not sure what Jordan not being on the team has to do with it. The two teams were evenly matched. If Pippen was indeed the better player, then the combination of him and Grant should have proven to be successful. If we go by what you're saying, Pippen+Grant are the better combo than Ewing+Starks and resulted in a win.

But that didn't happen. Chicago lost and Ewing also had a better year the following season. So if he led his team to a higher seed in both 1994 and 1995, put up better numbers or at least comparable, and beat Pippen head to head while performing better, why would we just assume that Pippen > Ewing during that stretch of time?



Okay, I agree that he didn't dominate him, but he did outplay him. Pippen did guard Penny most of the time, which is essentially my point. He didn't shut down Penny and Penny did in fact have the better series. Not to mention, did you watch Penny in the '95 finals?

Penny put up 26/5/8 on 64% TS%. Penny's performance was better than Pippen's 1996 finals and anything Pippen did between 1994-96, on the biggest stage.

That of course is lost in the conversation and completely ignored.



Kellerman is wrong. Pippen definitely doesn't rank higher than Robinson, Shaq, Malone, and MJ from 1994-96. And then there are a host of players who are better if not equal.

One thing you're forgetting is that MJ missed all of 1994 and most of 1995. Shaq missed a significant portion of 1995 and 1996. Penny was a rookie in 1994. And Barkley missed a lot of games as well between the three years (42 in total).

It makes sense that Pippen received more votes looking for various accolades as he was consistently healthy and played full seasons. You have to take that into consideration if you're going to look at voting. But that doesn't automatically mean he was the better player.

Again. This is not about your opinion bro. It's about how Pippen was regarded.

Again you want to fall back on stats. Accolades say something totally contrary to what you feel.

[HoopsNY]

Again. This is not about your opinion bro. It's about how Pippen was regarded.

Again you want to fall back on stats. Accolades say something totally contrary to what you feel.

Great, so what this boils down to is cherry picking quotes to suit your argument. Never mind what the data, eye test, and analysis actually says.

You just ignored the fact that when you look at year-by-year voting for accolades, it ignores the context like injuries and players like Penny being a rookie and MJ missing a year and three quarters.

[LAmbruh]

damn, 97 Bulls still spit roasting this Jordan stain per usual



HuggiesNY soiling himself attempting to defend Ordan and his competition at ever teet :oldlol:

[Pip' N Rodman]

damn, 97 Bulls still spit roasting this Jordan stain per usual



HuggiesNY soiling himself attempting to defend Ordan and his competition at ever teet :oldlol:

:lol:roll: @--'--,-<

[ImKobe]

Great, so what this boils down to is cherry picking quotes to suit your argument. Never mind what the data, eye test, and analysis actually says.

You just ignored the fact that when you look at year-by-year voting for accolades, it ignores the context like injuries and players like Penny being a rookie and MJ missing a year and three quarters.

Yeah, that's the key part. Barkley and MJ were the two best players in '93 and in the middle of their primes. MJ retires and Barkley has his injuries in the '94 & '95 Regular Seasons. Pippen was not better than Hakeem, D-Rob, Ewing, Malone & Shaq anyways, you add MJ and Barkley to that list and he's just a borderline top 10 player as a 2nd option, who could never be the #1 option on a championship team. If Barkley's healthy in '94 & '95, Pippen doesn't make 1st team All-NBA and is not top 3 in the MVP voting, the forward spot wasn't all that deep either in those years, it's Pippen, Malone & Barkley, the Center position was deep, and only one of them could make 1st team.

Funny how he brings up the Knicks series being close in '94, but ignores that Pippen was way worse against them, even averaged less points than the year before, despite not having MJ there. Grant and Armstrong carried his ass offensively and Pippen quit on his team because Phil didn't trust him to take the last shot. He had 13 points on 5/16 shooting in Game 6 and his team still pushed it to a Game 7, even with Ewing having 26/14 on 9/18 FG.

[HoopsNY]

Yeah, that's the key part. Barkley and MJ were the two best players in '93 and in the middle of their primes. MJ retires and Barkley has his injuries in the '94 & '95 Regular Seasons. Pippen was not better than Hakeem, D-Rob, Ewing, Malone & Shaq anyways, you add MJ and Barkley to that list and he's just a borderline top 10 player as a 2nd option, who could never be the #1 option on a championship team. If Barkley's healthy in '94 & '95, Pippen doesn't make 1st team All-NBA and is not top 3 in the MVP voting, the forward spot wasn't all that deep either in those years, it's Pippen, Malone & Barkley, the Center position was deep, and only one of them could make 1st team.

Funny how he brings up the Knicks series being close in '94, but ignores that Pippen was way worse against them, even averaged less points than the year before, despite not having MJ there. Grant and Armstrong carried his ass offensively and Pippen quit on his team because Phil didn't trust him to take the last shot. He had 13 points on 5/16 shooting in Game 6 and his team still pushed it to a Game 7, even with Ewing having 26/14 on 9/18 FG.

Yea. I'm a big Pippen fan. But singling out total votes for accolades doesn't tell me much because guys like MJ were out, Barkley injured, Penny was a rookie in 1994, Shaq was injured, etc.

Not to mention, there is no mention of Pippen's playoff performances between 1994-96. Kemp was far more impactful. Heck, if we look at the '96 finals, Kemp dominated Rodman in game 1, putting up 32 points on 64% (led all scorers including MJ). Phil then made the switch and had Longley guard Kemp the rest of the series.

We saw what Penny did against Chicago in both 1995 and 1996. And in the 1995 finals against Houson, Penny played extremely well. Penny 1995 performance was better than Pippen in all of his finals except for maybe 1991, but definitely better than anything Pippen had done in all of the 1994-96 playoffs.

mehya is right, if you're a GM and you have a choice, Pippen definitely isn't your #2 pick. Who would honestly take Pippen over peak David Robinson?

Pippen won MVP votes? Well, David Robinson won an MVP award..... in one of the very years that's being argued here - 1995.

[ImKobe]

Yea. I'm a big Pippen fan. But singling out total votes for accolades doesn't tell me much because guys like MJ were out, Barkley injured, Penny was a rookie in 1994, Shaq was injured, etc.

Not to mention, there is no mention of Pippen's playoff performances between 1994-96. Kemp was far more impactful. Heck, if we look at the '96 finals, Kemp dominated Rodman in game 1, putting up 32 points on 64% (led all scorers including MJ). Phil then made the switch and had Longley guard Kemp the rest of the series.

We saw what Penny did against Chicago in both 1995 and 1996. And in the 1995 finals against Houson, Penny played extremely well. Penny 1995 performance was better than Pippen in all of his finals except for maybe 1991, but definitely better than anything Pippen had done in all of the 1994-96 playoffs.

mehya is right, if you're a GM and you have a choice, Pippen definitely isn't your #2 pick. Who would honestly take Pippen over peak David Robinson?

Pippen won MVP votes? Well, David Robinson won an MVP award..... in one of the very years that's being argued here - 1995.

#2 is just asinine :facepalm . I don't care how good Pippen was defensively, he's nowhere near top 5 for that era with how mediocre his offensive impact actually was.

[Manny98]

guys, i though players knew best :confusedshrug:

why are folks so triggered by Rodmans take :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

Great, so what this boils down to is cherry picking quotes to suit your argument. Never mind what the data, eye test, and analysis actually says.

You just ignored the fact that when you look at year-by-year voting for accolades, it ignores the context like injuries and players like Penny being a rookie and MJ missing a year and three quarters.

Ok. So if he had great stats (even historic in 95) finished top 5 in both MVP and DPOY, 2 of three years in question, led the NBA in All-NBA votes in 94, and we've pulled up quotes from his peers, and articles of what was being said at the time, Im supposed to disregard that for how you feel? Oh and overlook my eye test?

What is everyone basing their assessment on?

[97 bulls]

Yeah, that's the key part. Barkley and MJ were the two best players in '93 and in the middle of their primes. MJ retires and Barkley has his injuries in the '94 & '95 Regular Seasons. Pippen was not better than Hakeem, D-Rob, Ewing, Malone & Shaq anyways, you add MJ and Barkley to that list and he's just a borderline top 10 player as a 2nd option, who could never be the #1 option on a championship team. If Barkley's healthy in '94 & '95, Pippen doesn't make 1st team All-NBA and is not top 3 in the MVP voting, the forward spot wasn't all that deep either in those years, it's Pippen, Malone & Barkley, the Center position was deep, and only one of them could make 1st team.

Funny how he brings up the Knicks series being close in '94, but ignores that Pippen was way worse against them, even averaged less points than the year before, despite not having MJ there. Grant and Armstrong carried his ass offensively and Pippen quit on his team because Phil didn't trust him to take the last shot. He had 13 points on 5/16 shooting in Game 6 and his team still pushed it to a Game 7, even with Ewing having 26/14 on 9/18 FG.

Pippen got more votes than Malone. And he was healthy. Most people felt Malone was better than Barkley.

You guys are incredible. In this very thread. Roundball Rock showed articles saying Pippen was the front runner for MVP before HE GOT HURT IN 96. But that doesn't matter. Only Barkelys and Shaqs and Penny's injuries matter. Lol. Hell Jordan is now so great, he doesnt even have to play in the league and he still gets a top 5 ranking!!! This is insane.

How can a guy that you feel that the guy that is less talented, be held to a higher standard than the guys you feel are more talented? Shouldnt that be the other way around?

[Axe]

damn, 97 Bulls still spit roasting this Jordan stain per usual



HuggiesNY soiling himself attempting to defend Ordan and his competition at ever teet :oldlol:
:(

Careful. Or else he might shift back to spamming trash with his 3ball and his trada7029 dup.

[97 bulls]

#2 is just asinine :facepalm . I don't care how good Pippen was defensively, he's nowhere near top 5 for that era with how mediocre his offensive impact actually was.

Well, the title says 93, 94, and 95. But Rodman actually stated 93-94 and 94-95 seasons. Pippen was definitely top 5 then.

[LAmbruh]

:lol:roll: @--'--,-<
:lebronamazed::dancin


LETS F*CKING GOOOOOOO:hammertime:

[Axe]

#2 is just asinine :facepalm . I don't care how good Pippen was defensively, he's nowhere near top 5 for that era with how mediocre his offensive impact actually was.
Ppg numbahs again? Goddamn...

[ImKobe]

Pippen got more votes than Malone. And he was healthy. Most people felt Malone was better than Barkley.

You guys are incredible. In this very thread. Roundball Rock showed articles saying Pippen was the front runner for MVP before HE GOT HURT IN 96. But that doesn't matter. Only Barkelys and Shaqs and Penny's injuries matter. Lol. Hell Jordan is now so great, he doesnt even have to play in the league and he still gets a top 5 ranking!!! This is insane.

How can a guy that you feel ithe guy that is less talented be held to a higher standard than the guys you feel are more talented? Shouldnt that be the other way around?

Barkley was better at his peak but Malone's longevity can't be denied. Chuck was better in '93 though.

Pippen was not a front runner for MVP, please stop it :facepalm . You're going off the deep end here.

Pippen was not a top 5 player of the 90s, he was not a top 3 player in '94 nor '95, you can't just base that off a couple articles or some nit-picked advanced stats or All-NBA/MVP votes. MVP doesn't = best player to begin with, and you can't overlook the unique circumstances in those years, you also can't overlook Pippen's Playoff production. Chris Paul is likely going to finish top 5 in MVP voting this season, does ANYONE here think he's even top 10 in the league right now? Was Steve Nash even a top 3 player when he won his MVPs in 2005 and 2006? Was Dirk the best player in the league in 2007?


Ppg numbahs again? Goddamn...

Not just ppg, scoring efficiency too... Pippen does not stack up well AT ALL, look at all the mediocre Playoff runs he's had with the GOAT on his side.

[97 bulls]

Barkley was better at his peak but Malone's longevity can't be denied. Chuck was better in '93 though.

Pippen was not a front runner for MVP, please stop it :facepalm . You're going off the deep end here.

Pippen was not a top 5 player of the 90s, he was not a top 3 player in '94 nor '95, you can't just base that off a couple articles or some nit-picked advanced stats or All-NBA/MVP votes. MVP doesn't = best player to begin with, and you can't overlook the unique circumstances in those years, you also can't overlook Pippen's Playoff production. Chris Paul is likely going to finish top 5 in MVP voting this season, does ANYONE here think he's even top 10 in the league right now? Was Steve Nash even a top 3 player when he won his MVPs in 2005 and 2006? Was Dirk the best player in the league in 2007?



Not just ppg, scoring efficiency too... Pippen does not stack up well AT ALL, look at all the mediocre Playoff runs he's had with the GOAT on his side.

I think you guys are caught up in emotion. Were talking about 3 years here. 94, 95, and 96. The whole of the seasons. Not just 6-7 games.

[mehyaM24]

mehya is right, if you're a GM and you have a choice, Pippen definitely isn't your #2 pick. Who would honestly take Pippen over peak David Robinson?

Pippen won MVP votes? Well, David Robinson won an MVP award..... in one of the very years that's being argued here - 1995.

no gm with any sense would lol. add shaq, hakeem, malone & barkley into the pot. truth is you can find a number of quotes talking up drob, especially in 95. he was the mvp so naturally fans associate that with "the best". ditto with playoff hakeem & shaq. like you also mentioned, barkley missed a quarter of the season however still put up superior numbers, impact & playoff production.

idk. from my vantage point the debate is loaded with revisionism. no point arguing opinion vs facts.

[Phoenix]

I do remember a Pip for MVP buzz in 96 before he got injured. I don't recall if it was a huge national discussion about it, but I do recall either a few articles about it or it got mentioned by broadcasters during some nationally televised Bulls game. How much of a thing I can't recall, this shit is 25 years old. But I do recall even MJ( by no means short on ego) himself pushing a Pippen4MVP thing at one point. It was a conversation that lost steam once Scottie got injured, but I do know he was damn good up to that point.

[97 bulls]

I do remember a Pip for MVP buzz in 96 before he got injured. I don't recall if it was a huge national discussion about it, but I do recall either a few articles about it or it got mentioned by broadcasters during some nationally televised Bulls game. How much of a thing I can't recall, this shit is 25 years old. But I do recall even MJ( by no means short on ego) himself pushing a Pippen4MVP thing at one point. It was a conversation that lost steam once Scottie got injured, but I do know he was damn good up to that point.
That's the funny thing. Every players gets a pass due to injury but Pippen. I cant quite figure out where all this vitriol for Pippen is coming from. I mean why does everybody get a pass for being injured but Pippen?

[Phoenix]

That's the funny thing. Every players gets a pass due to injury but Pippen. I cant quite figure out where all this vitriol for Pippen is coming from. I mean why does everybody get a pass for being injured but Pippen?

It's mostly coming from one compulsive MJ nut who can't seem to let MJs greatness stand on it's own merits without bashing his teammates, notably Scottie. The sad outcome is, at least on this poor excuse for a basketball discussion board, Pip has become a lighting rod between the MJ and Bron stan camps.

[2much_knowledge]

Lebrons never played for a team that was even capable of winning 35 games without him

Levels to this GOAT shit my man.

Newsflash, healthy Wade took the Heat to the 2nd round, game 7 without lebron or Bosh..... 2016

[RogueBorg]

I do remember a Pip for MVP buzz in 96 before he got injured. I don't recall if it was a huge national discussion about it, but I do recall either a few articles about it or it got mentioned by broadcasters during some nationally televised Bulls game. How much of a thing I can't recall, this shit is 25 years old. But I do recall even MJ( by no means short on ego) himself pushing a Pippen4MVP thing at one point. It was a conversation that lost steam once Scottie got injured, but I do know he was damn good up to that point.

There's never a moment in 1995-'96 season were Pippen was remotely close to being considered for MVP. Not the beginning, not the middle, and certainly not the end.

[2much_knowledge]

A Pippen stan. What do you know... lol

Now i have seen everything

[RogueBorg]

That's the funny thing. Every players gets a pass due to injury but Pippen. I cant quite figure out where all this vitriol for Pippen is coming from. I mean why does everybody get a pass for being injured but Pippen?

Pippen wasn't injured during the the '95-'96 season.

[Phoenix]

There's never a moment in 1995-'96 season were Pippen was remotely close to being considered for MVP. Not the beginning, not the middle, and certainly not the end.

I never said it was a serious discussion, only that I recall it being part of the vernacular in the first half of the season. It may have been jumpstarted by MJ himself campaigning for it, but It was out there. Like there were whispers early in the year that Penny was the best player before Shaq returned. I recall those comments being made during games at times. It's not something I'm conjuring up out of thin air. Again, in retrospect it may seem silly but I'm not speaking about things that weren't discussed at the time, even if only casually.

[97 bulls]

Pippen wasn't injured during the the '95-'96 season.

Sure he was

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1996-06-18-9606180023-story,amp.html

Pippen just played through the injuries. Most people that watched the Bulls saw how those injuries effected him toward the last 1/3 of the season.

[97 bulls]

Heres another link where Pippen said he was banged up the last 4 months of the 95-96 season.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.spokesman.com/stories/1996/jul/03/injuries-affect-pippens-pep-in-small-way/%3famp-content=amp

[Phoenix]

Scottie through Jan 30th 96( 42 games) was doing 22/7/6, 50% from the field, 44% from 3. He ended up doing 19/6/5 46%/37%. There was a second half drop off precipitated by nagging injuries. If he was healthy enough in the playoffs as he was in the first half of the year the Bulls would have probably swept the playoffs.

[97 bulls]

Scottie through Jan 30th 96( 42 games) was doing 22/7/6, 50% from the field, 44% from 3. He ended up doing 19/6/5 46%/37%. There was a second half drop off precipitated by nagging injuries. If he was healthy enough in the playoffs as he was in the first half of the year the Bulls would have probably swept the playoffs.

Great job Phoenix. Now that with Jordan taking the lions share of shots, and having the league's leading rebounder on his team. In a slower pace, in a tougher defensive era.

[Phoenix]

Great job Phoenix. Now that with Jordan taking the lions share of shots, and having the league's leading rebounder on his team. In a slower pace, in a tougher defensive era.

:cheers:

Not only swept the playoffs, but probably eclipsed the 72 wins. Ditto for the 97 squad, 69 wins with Rodman and Kukoc missing 25 or so games a piece. Team should have won 75 each season( hell the 98 squad won 62 with Scottie missing 38 games). Very easily could have had two seasons better than the Warriors 2016 season and unlike GS, closing the deal each time.

[3ball]

Scottie through Jan 30th 96( 42 games) was doing 22/7/6, 50% from the field, 44% from 3. He ended up doing 19/6/5 46%/37%. There was a second half drop off precipitated by nagging injuries. If he was healthy enough in the playoffs as he was in the first half of the year the Bulls would have probably swept the playoffs.


^^^ that's the point - Jordan had to deal with an aging Pippen, who averaged 17 on 41% in the 96-98' Playoffs, while old Rodman averaged 4/8 in the 1997 Playoffs and wasn't the starter in 98'...

Otoh, Lebron didn't have to deal with aging teammates and got to refresh his cast every 4 years with the hottest young talent in the league..

It's fraud and the media is complicit in turning the league into WWE.. However, today's short-term, mercenary teamwork/collusions is a lower brand of basketball than the long-term, organic chemistry and identities developed in prior eras.... That's why the ratings are down - it's inferior basketball.

Btw, apparently Pippen was playing to 100% capacity in 1996 before he got hurt, so teammates played to full capacity alongside Jordan.. However, 22/5 isn't sufficient to carry a team, which is why the 95' Bulls were a bummy .500 team before MJ returned and carried them to another 3-peat.

[HoopsNY]

I do remember a Pip for MVP buzz in 96 before he got injured. I don't recall if it was a huge national discussion about it, but I do recall either a few articles about it or it got mentioned by broadcasters during some nationally televised Bulls game. How much of a thing I can't recall, this shit is 25 years old. But I do recall even MJ( by no means short on ego) himself pushing a Pippen4MVP thing at one point. It was a conversation that lost steam once Scottie got injured, but I do know he was damn good up to that point.

Pippen being pushed for MVP overrides David Robinson actually winning an MVP award? I'm not saying you're saying this, but 97 bulls clearly is making the case that Pippen > Robinson between 1994-96. I can't really fathom that, lol.

[HoopsNY]

That's the funny thing. Every players gets a pass due to injury but Pippen. I cant quite figure out where all this vitriol for Pippen is coming from. I mean why does everybody get a pass for being injured but Pippen?

No one is claiming players get a pass. But when you're going to go with All-NBA votes or any voting, then you have to be on the court for them to give you votes.

Here's something to consider. Pippen was All NBA 3rd team in 1998, but he missed 38 games. Do you honestly think if Pippen was healthy that he'd get less votes than Vin Baker (All-NBA 2nd Team)?

My point is that totaling votes for these awards without context does little justice to the discussion.

[3ball]

Pippen being pushed for MVP overrides David Robinson actually winning an MVP award? I'm not saying you're saying this, but 97 bulls clearly is making the case that Pippen > Robinson between 1994-96. I can't really fathom that, lol.


Show me where he was good in the playoffs from 88-90' or 93-03'

Pippen is the worst playoff performer of all time given his ring count

[And1AllDay]

Heres another link where Pippen said he was banged up the last 4 months of the 95-96 season.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.spokesman.com/stories/1996/jul/03/injuries-affect-pippens-pep-in-small-way/%3famp-content=amp

97 bulls is the chicago bulls fans we didnt know we needed around here

he can make me respect mike more

3baLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL does the opposite which is funny becos of the agenda he drives

[HoopsNY]

Show me where he was good in the playoffs from 88-90' or 93-03'

Pippen is the worst playoff performer of all time given his ring count

Stay on topic.

[And1AllDay]

Show me where he was good in the playoffs from 88-90' or 93-03'

Pippen is the worst playoff performer of all time given his ring count

quick question to end your agenda and ish career

which #2 option would you trade scottie for? of all the teams you played who are you trading pippen for?

in 97 you trading pip for hornacek?
94 you trading pip for starks?
92 you trading pip for teryr porter?

you get the message baby girrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrl

[3ball]

No one is claiming players get a pass. But when you're going to go with All-NBA votes or any voting, then you have to be on the court for them to give you votes.

Here's something to consider. Pippen was All NBA 3rd team in 1998, but he missed 38 games.

Do you honestly think if Pippen was healthy that he'd get less votes than Vin Baker (All-NBA 2nd Team)?

My point is that totaling votes for these awards without context does little justice to the discussion.




Winning rings every year gave Pippen accolades that weren't backed by actual performance, similar to Kobe's all-defense awards - they mean nothing - it's just an association with MJ that overrates Kobe and Pippen with undeserved accolades.

Ultimately, Pippen barely made top 50 all-time in 1996, and dozens of newer guys have passed him since, like Duncan, Kobe, Giannis, or Curry - so it's impossible that Pippen is top 30 today..

But unfortunately, new fans must do on-paper evaluations of older players, and Pippen's 6 rings simply stand out over the zero rings of Ewing or Giannis... This proves that Pippen is mis-ranked - the winning spotlight inflates him without the backing of actual performance.. He never played anywhere nearly as good as Giannis, Ewing, Kawhi, Harden or tons of guys that he's ranked ahead of.