How far does Jordan go on the 2018 Cavs in place of LeBron?

[Mamba4Life]

Jordan is used to being on teams that can win 55 games without him

How would he fair on a team that only went 19-63 once LeBron left?

[Rico2016]

Easy. I still remember MJ's first 10 playoff games without Pippen.

1-9 sounds about right.

[Mamba4Life]

Easy. I still remember MJ's first 10 playoff games without Pippen.

1-9 sounds about right.

Do they even make the playoffs though? Jordan only won 30 games and made the playoffs in 1986, cause there were only 12 teams in each conference, nowdays thats a 10th seed at best

[Lebron23]

Missed the playoffs and if they make it got likely swept in the first round.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He def doesn't quit, pout, and throw his teammates under the bus BEFORE over time of Game 1.

[Mamba4Life]

He def doesn't quit, pout, and throw his teammates under the bus BEFORE over time of Game 1.

Because there wouldn't be a Game 1, there wouldn't even be a playoff run

[SamuraiSWISH]

Because there wouldn't be a Game 1, there wouldn't even be a playoff run
No they would've got there with MORE rest.

Plenty of good help on that team to not need TWO game sevens against bums and rookies just to get the Finals. Scary Terry isn't THAT scary. :oldlol:

Jordan probably steals that game 1 in a similar but better performance, plus closing with little stalwart all world man defense Stephanie Curry guarding him to end the game? Hah, it's over and iced before even getting to OT.

And even if he lost with perennial all star K-Love to the Warriors.

Rest assured ... no wife's panty house crudely wrapped around his hand, acting like he broke his hand in utterly pathetic bitch energy fashion. No excuses.

:biggums:

[Mamba4Life]

No they would've got there with MORE rest.

Plenty of good help on that team to not need TWO game sevens against bums and rookies just to get the Finals. Scary Terry isn't THAT scary. :oldlol:

Jordan probably steals that game 1 in a similar but better performance, plus closing with little stalwart all world man defense Stephanie Curry guarding him to end the game? Hah, it's over and iced before even getting to OT.

And even if he lost with perennial all star K-Love to the Warriors.

Rest assured ... no wife's panty house crudely wrapped around his hand, acting like he broke his hand in utterly pathetic bitch energy fashion. No excuses.

:biggums:

How did those same Cavs do next season, did they win 55 games like Jordan's supporting cast does, or did they go 19-63 and were the laughingstock of the league?


How far does MJ usually go when given 19-63 supporting casts?

[SamuraiSWISH]

How did those same Cavs do next season, did they win 55 games like Jordan's supporting cast does, or did they go 19-63 and were the laughingstock of the league?


How far does MJ usually go when given 19-63 supporting casts?
I mean MJ's teams run offenses, and are allowed to be coached. He facilitates, and leads to having better teams. The team doesn't become so dependent on one guy to make all decisions, thus lowering their ceiling against actual quality opponents. Those records aren't indicative of talent necessarily. And is 55 games worthy of a trophy? He came back and they win 72, 69, and 62. With Scottie deliberately and selfishly missing half of one of those seasons. Sound logic, Zoomer.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

How far does LeBron go on the 85-86 Bulls in place of Jordan?

[Axe]

How far does LeBron go on the 85-86 Bulls in place of Jordan?
Would have ended up as the 9th seed in the east, most likely.

[Lebron23]

How far does LeBron go on the 85-86 Bulls in place of Jordan?

Barring no injuries lost in the 2nd round.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Would have ended up as the 9th seed in the east, most likely.

I’m just confused, is this the mental gymnastic awards that LeBron fans like to play because he didn’t win actual championships in reality and they use it to justify his abysmal loser performance on the big stage?

Does it make them feel more comforted this bizarre unprovable hypotheticals?

When reality states he’s 3 for 9 and damn near 1 for 9 in the Finals? Barring lucky circumstances, clutch legacy shaving shots, injuries and league assisted officiating or suspensions?

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Barring no injuries lost in the 2nd round.
You mean to tell me LeBron is getting past the world champion Boston Celtics in the first round?

[Mamba4Life]

You mean to tell me LeBron is getting past the world champion Boston Celtics in the first round?

LeBron wouldn't have been in a position were he only wins 30 games and gets the 8th seed like MJ did

LeBron wins 50+ games with the Bulls and is a Top 4 seed

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

LeBron wouldn't have been in a position were he only wins 30 games and gets the 8th seed like MJ did

LeBron wins 50+ games with the Bulls and is a Top 4 seed

But if LeBron in that position and had to face the Celtics in the first round.How is he beating them with a bunch of scrubs and cokeheads?

[Mamba4Life]

But if LeBron in that position and had to face the Celtics in the first round.How is he beating them with a bunch of scrubs and cokeheads?

The same way LeBron beat the 2007 Pistons with a bunch of scrubs and cokeheads.

Anf the 2007 Pistons > Those Celtics

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

The same way LeBron beat the 2007 Pistons with a bunch of scrubs and cokeheads.LeBron goes to the 2007 nba finals via weak eastern conference


Anf the 2007 Pistons > Those Celtics
.............................

[Axe]

I’m just confused, is this the mental gymnastic awards that LeBron fans like to play because he didn’t win actual championships in reality and they use it to justify his abysmal loser performance on the big stage?

Does it make them feel more comforted this bizarre unprovable hypotheticals?

When reality states he’s 3 for 9 and damn near 1 for 9 in the Finals? Barring lucky circumstances, clutch legacy shaving shots, injuries and league assisted officiating or suspensions?
Yeah, losing probably means more stats for him as long as he's trying.

[86Celtics]

The same way LeBron beat the 2007 Pistons with a bunch of scrubs and cokeheads.

Anf the 2007 Pistons > Those Celtics

This is one the most stupid takes that I've ever seen. Do you enjoy making a fool out of yourself? Or are you really that stupid?

[Wally450]

And the 2007 Pistons > Those Celtics

Just stop man.

[Manny98]

Honestly they would lose in the first round

Jordan is probably a better player than LeBron when working with a good supporting cast but he loses to LeBron in terms of raising the floor of supporting casts that lack star power like those Cavs which was pretty much LeBron and a bunch of role players

That Cavs team was specifically built to accommodate LeBrons playstyle so Jordan would struggle on that team

[LostCause]

Honestly they would lose in the first round

Jordan is probably a better player than LeBron when working with a good supporting cast but he loses to LeBron in terms of raising the floor of supporting casts that lack star power like those Cavs which was pretty much LeBron and a bunch of role players

That Cavs team was specifically built to accommodate LeBrons playstyle so Jordan would struggle on that team


This is actually a solid post. Jordan’s floor raising ability is a lot better than you’re suggesting here (In fact, the Backpicks guy rated him as having one of the largest carry-jobs in NBA History in 88 and 89). So depending on which version of Jordan you use he could certainly get that team to the Finals

If we're using 33 year old Jordan, or 97 Jordan, he could probably still get past those Pacers. The Bullets he faced in the 1st round of 97 were similar to the Pacers but had a better defense relative to league average and he dropped 37 per game on them (With a 62 TS%). LeBron averaged 34 (With a 66 TS%) against Indiana. Regardless it comes down to how you believe the supporting cast would work with Jordan. I do think Jordan could work with the roster, as it's mostly shooters and we saw with Kerr/Paxson/Hodges that Jordan played well with 3-pt specialists.

So just like with LeBron, getting past the Pacers in the 1st round will definitely come down to the wire but I can see 97 Jordan doing it. Toronto I think will go similarly, Derozan still becomes terribly inefficient in the playoffs and Kevin Love will still present the matchup nightmare he did that series by stretching the floor. Lowry's not enough here (Siakim wasn't developed enough yet to be a difference maker)

They may lose against Boston though. Again comes down to differences between MJ and LeBron. At this stage of his career Jordan largely played in the triangle and while he could and did stray from that to create on his own (and there's no reason he couldn't still do so at 33), the rest of the team will probably suffer as they'll rely on Lue's coaching against a team as well-coached with good defense like Boston (and Stevens will outcoach him). LeBrons a better playmaker than Jordan so we can't just say Jordan would create the same for his teammates as LeBron did. So this probably goes 7 games with Boston having the advantage.

Regardless if Jordan gets past Boston or not they still get swept in the Finals though

[tpols]

would easily make the finals considering the competition ~ trash bros raptors & rookie tatum / jaylen brown led celtics.

Would definitely not pass up the 16 footer lebron had against curry that wouldve been a game winner.

Probably takes two games off the dubs.


Shit I forgot 2018 cavs had Kevin Love. Lebron made that dude invisible... MJ would probably have him playing how he did in minnesota ~ all NBA.

MJ + an All NBA teammate could win the title.

[Hey Yo]

He def doesn't quit, pout, and throw his teammates under the bus BEFORE over time of Game 1.
Cause he wouldn't have gotten to the Finals to begin with.

It's a proven fact that MJ couldn't play more than 3 straight Finals appearances w/o having to quit the league and rest up (1993 and 1998) so th only way he's playing in the Finals in 2018 is if he took 2014 and 15 off to rest up.

[Turbo Slayer]

would easily make the finals considering the competition ~ trash bros raptors & rookie tatum / jaylen brown led celtics.

Would definitely not pass up the 16 footer lebron had against curry that wouldve been a game winner.

Probably takes two games off the dubs.


Shit I forgot 2018 cavs had Kevin Love. Lebron made that dude invisible... MJ would probably have him playing how he did in minnesota ~ all NBA.

MJ + an All NBA teammate could win the title.


Shit I forgot 2018 cavs had Kevin Love. Lebron made that dude invisible

Kevin Love years in Minnesota 29.6 points on 45 FG%

Kevin in 2018 30.8 points on 46 FG%

Check link: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html

LeBron ball doesn't belittle other players. It's a false narrative.

Points per 100 possessions in effect

[Turbo Slayer]

would easily make the finals considering the competition ~ trash bros raptors & rookie tatum / jaylen brown led celtics.

Would definitely not pass up the 16 footer lebron had against curry that wouldve been a game winner.

Probably takes two games off the dubs.


Shit I forgot 2018 cavs had Kevin Love. Lebron made that dude invisible... MJ would probably have him playing how he did in minnesota ~ all NBA.

MJ + an All NBA teammate could win the title. I agree with everything you say (mostly) but the 2018 Cavs don't win the 2018 NBA Finals with any superstar in history. It's just not going to work.

Sure MJ and the Cavs could take 1 game but let's face reality. The Warriors would sweep them.

[Roundball_Rock]

The first round. We have no evidence to suggest Jordan could do anything with a team of that caliber. Jordan was able to get more out of already good teams but LeBron is much better at getting more out of bad or average teams.

Keep in mind the Bulls' progress was gradual with MJ. ESPN wants you to think MJ showed up and they immediately turned around. The Bulls won 38, 30, 40, 50, 47, 55, 61, 67 games from 1985-1992 before backsliding slightly to 57 and 55 in 93' and 94'. The results needed roster and coaching improvements. You could put prime LeBron on a 30 win team and he would turn them into a contender.

The "47" may look like a step back but they made the conference finals for the first time that year, after losing 4-1 in the second round in the previous year (which was their first time winning a playoff series with MJ).

[LostCause]

Keep in mind the Bulls' progress was gradual with MJ. ESPN wants you to think MJ showed up and they immediately turned around. The Bulls won 38, 30, 40, 50, 47, 55, 61, 67 games from 1985-1992 before backsliding slightly to 57 and 55 in 93' and 94'. The results needed roster and coaching improvements. You could put prime LeBron on a 30 win team and he would turn them into a contender.

The bolded isn't true but even then it's a silly statement to make following what the rest of your post said

MJ didn't "show up" in his prime. Neither did LeBron. So it doesn't make much sense to bring up Jordan's rookie year, a sophomore campaign where he missed most of the season with injury, then his 3rd year which one could argue was his actual sophomore year then make a statement about what a "prime" LeBron would do. Most of your post is disingenuous.

Though I'm curious what you define "contender" as. 09 LeBron is largely looked at as his peak. That year his team lost to the Magic in the 3rd round. Were they contenders or pretenders that year?

[RRR3]

What version of MJ? Even peak MJ isn't beating the Warriors with that Cavs team, no matter what that armadillo brained "coach" says.

He might get a game or two off the Warriors if the refs don't screw him (they screwed LeBron in game 1 lest anyone forget)

[SouBeachTalents]

would easily make the finals considering the competition ~ trash bros raptors & rookie tatum / jaylen brown led celtics.

Would definitely not pass up the 16 footer lebron had against curry that wouldve been a game winner.

Probably takes two games off the dubs.


Shit I forgot 2018 cavs had Kevin Love. Lebron made that dude invisible... MJ would probably have him playing how he did in minnesota ~ all NBA.

MJ + an All NBA teammate could win the title.
Jordan is not beating the Warriors with that Cavs team, GTFOH :oldlol:

[Turbo Slayer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgB5Ub1GNUU

It's really crazy though. When I was watching that game live. I couldn't believe what I was witnessing for a short period of time. I actually believed that this man could beat 4 All-Stars by himself!

That is pure greatness.

It's gonna be a shame when this man retires.

[RRR3]

Jordan is not beating the Warriors with that Cavs team, GTFOH :oldlol:
He's never recovered from 2016. When you take that into account his posts make sense.

[red1]

not sure but I'd love to see it. :oldlol:

[Turbo Slayer]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?412003-Worst-meltdown-after-the-Finals/page2

[tpols]

Jordan is not beating the Warriors with that Cavs team, GTFOH :oldlol:

Harden and 1/2 a chris paul almost did.

Listen.... you guys are SERIOUSLY underestimating michael jordan. We have posters in this thread saying hed lose to a celtic team where rookie tatum was the leading scorer.

Or losing first round to ****ing oladipo and the nobody pacers.

This man was called "God" by Larry Bird and the GOAT Celtics and dominated ATG teams single handidly.

Long term... if you gave MJ kyrie and love, there's no doubt THEY would be the dynasty to beat. They'd never be underdogs like lebron was.

[G0ATbe]

Only an idiot would think Jordan makes the playoffs with that squad let alone makes finals. If 3ball has taught us anything it’s that Jordan needs a top tier system in order to succeed. LeBron has success with no system

[RRR3]

Harden and prime Chris Paul almost did.

Listen.... you guys are SERIOUSLY underestimating michael jordan. We have posters in this thread saying hed lose to a celtic team where rookie tatum was the leading scorer.

Or losing first round to ****ing oladipo and the nobody pacers.

This man was called "God" by Larry Bird and the GOAT Celtics and dominated ATG teams single handidly.

Long term... if you gave MJ kyrie and love, there's no doubt THEY would be the dynasty to beat. They'd never be underdogs like lebron was.
Fixed.
Also wasn't aware LeBron had Kyrie in 2018. When he had Kyrie, they were the only team to get a game off the Warriors in the entire playoffs. If you weren't an agenda driven troll, you'd realize that Love is detrimental against GSW because of his godawful defense. MJ isn't making him a better defender.

[tpols]

CP3 missed games 6 and 7. And they were still an absolute hair away from winning... double digit leads in both games.

The point is they werent unbeatable. Im a huge Curry fan but the guy isnt physically tough. Durant is *****. They can be bullied and out shot.

Kyrie and especially Love would have a better chance of sticking around with a guy who doesnt command every second of every possesion. And is much better to boot.

[SouBeachTalents]

Harden and 1/2 a chris paul almost did.

Listen.... you guys are SERIOUSLY underestimating michael jordan. We have posters in this thread saying hed lose to a celtic team where rookie tatum was the leading scorer.

Or losing first round to ****ing oladipo and the nobody pacers.

This man was called "God" by Larry Bird and the GOAT Celtics and dominated ATG teams single handidly.

Long term... if you gave MJ kyrie and love, there's no doubt THEY would be the dynasty to beat. They'd never be underdogs like lebron was.
I don't think claiming Jordan loses to the Warriors with that Cavs team is underestimating him, it's being realistic. I would still pick Jordan to make the Finals, but he never came close to beating a team as good as the Warriors, and with that Cavs team that instantly became one of the worst teams in the league the instant LeBron left, I'm not buying it. This shit ain't tennis or golf, one player, no matter how great he is, can't make up a talent deficit that big.

[RRR3]

Kyrie ISO'd constantly with LeBron on his team. You don't watch LeBron play, you just troll.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The 18 Dubs were vulnerable and nearly lost to Houston. Today according to Draymond, they already had in-game beef with Durant too.

So not everything with smooth sailing.

Saying Jordan beats them is a reach but if Bron dropped 50 in Game 1? The GOAT scorer would make them kneel. 50 and maybe 60 point showings, srs.

[RRR3]

The 18 Dubs were vulnerable and nearly lost to Houston. Today according to Draymond, they already had in-game beef with Durant too.

So not everything with smooth sailing.

Saying Jordan beats them is a reach but if Bron dropped 50 in Game 1? The GOAT scorer would make them kneel. 50 and maybe 60 point showings, srs.
I'll always be salty the refs robbed LeBron of that game. Sure, he wasn't winning that series, but it robbed him of the best game of his career.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'll always be salty the refs robbed LeBron of that game. Sure, he wasn't winning that series, but it robbed him of the best game of his career.

Yeah. The refs were shit and JR's dumb ass compacted the issue.

Still one of the best games I've seen from Bron. Up until the overtime, probably THE best. And definitely in that tier with G6 @ Bos

[RRR3]

Yeah. The refs were shit and JR's dumb ass compacted the issue.

Still one of the best games I've seen from Bron. Up until the overtime, probably THE best. And definitely in that tier with G6 @ Bos
JR is retarded. I hate when people blame George Hill. Sure I wish he hit the FT, but I mean shit happens, and at least he hit 1. He's a solid ass player and you'd never catch him doing what JR did. But yeah none of that should have even mattered if the refs literally hadn't ignored the rules on the review of the KD/LeBron block/charge call.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yeah. The refs were shit and JR's dumb ass compacted the issue.

Still one of the best games I've seen from Bron tho. Up until the overtime, probably THE best. And definitely in that tier with G6 @ Bos
The thing that sucks most is we don't know how that series plays out had the Cavs won. They would've stolen homecourt, given the Warriors something to think about, and the Cavs would probably start to believe they could make it a series. But that loss completely destroyed their confidence. They managed to put up a fight in Game 3, but besides that they were never really in the series again. Very reminiscent of the '95 Magic.

Of all the terrible calls down the stretch, the Durant charge reversal is the most egregious. They call it a charge, go to review if LeBron is in the restricted area when he's 3 feet away, then reverse what was ultimately a bang bang call

[RRR3]

The thing that sucks most is we don't know how that series plays out had the Cavs won. They would've stolen homecourt, given the Warriors something to think about, and the Cavs would probably start to believe they could make it a series. But that loss completely destroyed their confidence. They managed to put up a fight in Game 3, but besides that they were never really in the series again. Very reminiscent of the '95 Magic.

Of all the terrible calls down the stretch, the Durant charge reversal is the most egregious. They call it a charge, go to review if LeBron is in the restricted area when he's 3 feet away, then reverse what was ultimately a bang bang call
Cavs weren't winning shit, but they would have definitely taken another game IMO and LeBron would get way more respect from idiots like ttrolls and coach. Not 3ball though, he'd say LeBron was shit even if he won that series.

All of this is why I can never watch highlights of that game, it'll just make me butthurt. I actually refused to watch the rest of the series after that blatant rigging for the Warriors in game 1. They did it against Houston too and I was just sick of it.

[SouBeachTalents]

Cats weren't winning shit, but they would have definitely taken another game IMO and LeBron would get way more respect from idiots like ttrolls and coach. Not 3ball though, he'd say LeBron was shit even if he won that series.
I wouldn't pick them to win, but how that series plays out will always be a big what if to me. LeBron was playing like an absolute god all playoffs, and just dropped 50 on their dome. I think it could've made for at minimum an interesting series if the Cavs won Game 1

[LostCause]

I mixed up the 17 and 18 Warriors in my earlier response. 17 Warriors sweep Jordan with the 18 Cavs. They were way too locked in that year and the Cavs has a once in a lifetime shooting game to steal one. Kyrie was also still there. The 18 Warriors, Jordan could make the games competitive but he’s not winning with that Cavs team. I’m only speaking for 97 Jordan, who was the same age as LeBron in 18

He’d definitely score a lot. LeBron lost his will at the end of regulation in Game 1 and it was apparent (0 points in OT on 4 shots), I don’t think Jordan would do that. In his place Jordan may go on to steal that game. He’d probably pull closer in other games and may just steal another at some point but winning the series I just don’t see

[RRR3]

I wouldn't pick them to win, but how that series plays out will always be a big what if to me. LeBron was playing like an absolute god all playoffs, and just dropped 50 on their dome. I think it could've made for at minimum an interesting series if the Cavs won Game 1
Yeah it would have been fun. I honestly think there's a good chance the Warriors win the next 4 games though :oldlol:

I honestly thought that Cavs team fit pretty well around LeBron apart from Love and his heinous defense (which really hurt them against GS). If you switched Love out for someone like Paul Millsap and added Kyrie, it would have been interesting.

[RRR3]

I mixed up the 17 and 18 Warriors in my earlier response. 17 Warriors sweep Jordan with the 18 Cavs. They were way too locked in that year and the Cavs has a once in a lifetime shooting game to steal one. Kyrie was also still there. The 18 Warriors, Jordan could make the games competitive but he’s not winning with that Cavs team. I’m only speaking for 97 Jordan, who was the same age as LeBron in 18

He’d definitely score a lot. LeBron lost his will at the end of regulation in Game 1 and it was apparent (0 points in OT on 4 shots), I don’t think Jordan would do that. In his place Jordan may go on to steal that game. He’d probably pull closer in other games and may just steal another at some point but winning the series I just don’t see
He had two points in OT actually. I kinda understood why he felt so crushed, he played the game of his life and it was stolen from him.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan is probably a better player than LeBron when working with a good supporting cast but he loses to LeBron in terms of raising the floor of supporting casts that lack star power like those Cavs which was pretty much LeBron and a bunch of role players


That's certainly what the available evidence suggests.


This is actually a solid post. Jordan’s floor raising ability is a lot better than you’re suggesting here (In fact, the Backpicks guy rated him as having one of the largest carry-jobs in NBA History in 88 and 89). So depending on which version of Jordan you use he could certainly get that team to the Finals

It's overrated. Chicago's gains were incremental and associated with roster and coaching improvements. Compare the two teams' early years:

LeBron was drafted by a 17 win team. 35 wins as a rookie then 42, 50, 50 (finals appearance). So LeBron comes out of high school and can get them to double their wins. Winning by year two and in the finals by year four.

Jordan was drafted by a 27 win team. 38 wins as a rookie then 30 (MJ missed most of the season), 40, 50, 47 (conference finals). So the polished college player comes in and the Bulls slightly improve and then sputter for three seasons. In his fourth year Pippen, Grant, and Doug Collins come in and the team improves consecutively. Then Phil Jackson becomes the coach (MJ's fourth by 1990) and they go to 55 wins and nearly win the ECF and then 61 wins and the chip in 91'.

There is no magic Jordan turnaround like there was for Bird, Shaq, Kareem, Russell, LeBron, etc.


Though I'm curious what you define "contender" as. 09 LeBron is largely looked at as his peak. That year his team lost to the Magic in the 3rd round. Were they contenders or pretenders that year?

If you make the finals or conference finals you pretty much by definition are a contender. Then you sometimes have a very good team that loses in the second round that was a contender.


Harden and 1/2 a chris paul almost did.

Yes, on a 65 win team with the best record in basketball. The Cavs were the 4 seed (50 wins) in the weaker conference. Not sure why people keep bringing up Houston. They were the second best team in basketball. Their performance tells us nothing about how a much worse team would do.

[SamuraiSWISH]

The 18 Dubs were vulnerable and nearly lost to Houston. Today according to Draymond, they already had in-game beef with Durant too.

So not everything with smooth sailing.

Saying Jordan beats them is a reach but if Bron dropped 50 in Game 1? The GOAT scorer would make them kneel. 50 and maybe 60 point showings, srs.
He said they had IN game beef at that point in the 2018 season? lol GOOD LORD ... where did he say this bruva?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He said they had IN game beef at that point in the 2018 season? lol GOOD LORD ... where did he say this bruva?

All the Smoke dude.

In so many words, ya. Dray went to Lacob and told him they should talk with Durant. Apparently Kevin was complaining/beefing with Steph and Kerr. Mostly over limited touches. That and he expressed how Durant already had one foot out the door. The Clipper game where they exchanged words was icing on the cake. Everything really began a year before though.

[SouBeachTalents]

All the Smoke dude.

In so many words, ya. Dray went to Lacob and told him they should talk with Durant. Apparently Kevin was complaining/beefing with Steph and Kerr. Mostly over limited touches. That and he expressed how Durant already had one foot out the door. The Clipper game where they exchanged words was icing on the cake. Everything really began a year before though.
Yeesh, Durant had about as perfect a situation imaginable in Golden State and he managed to cause problems within 2 years of being there. Good luck to him with always injured Kyrie in BK :oldlol:

[TheCorporation]

LeBron's 2018 run is better than any FULL playoff run thru the Finals in NBA history. Literally #1.

#1 PER at 32.2 (just edged 91 MJ for #1 with his 32.0)

2018 LeBron averaged 34/9/9 on 52% for the entire playoffs. We will never see it again.

[SATAN]

I think ultimately the Cavs with Jordan would have been the same result. Get to the finals and get ass raped by the superior team.

LeBron was incredible in that play off run though.

[Turbo Slayer]

LeBron's 2018 run is better than any FULL playoff run thru the Finals in NBA history. Literally #1.

#1 PER at 32.2 (just edged 91 MJ for #1 with his 32.0)

2018 LeBron averaged 34/9/9 on 52% for the entire playoffs. We will never see it again. I agree. LeBron playoff run in 2018 was amazing. He played his ass off in the Playoffs.

[LostCause]

It's overrated. Chicago's gains were incremental and associated with roster and coaching improvements

And Jordan's own growth. This has been covered & his impact was pretty profound, even as a rookie:
https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/84-to-90-Healthy-Bulls-SRS-1024x676.png


Compare the two teams' early years:

LeBron was drafted by a 17 win team. 35 wins as a rookie then 42, 50, 50 (finals appearance). So LeBron comes out of high school and can get them to double their wins. Winning by year two and in the finals by year four.

Jordan was drafted by a 27 win team. 38 wins as a rookie then 30 (MJ missed most of the season), 40, 50, 47 (conference finals). So the polished college player comes in and the Bulls slightly improve and then sputter for three seasons. In his fourth year Pippen, Grant, and Doug Collins come in and the team improves consecutively. Then Phil Jackson becomes the coach (MJ's fourth by 1990) and they go to 55 wins and nearly win the ECF and then 61 wins and the chip in 91'.

Again you're being disingenuous. Pippen & Grant were rookies & obviously a coaching change would affect things, though you're pretending as if the Cavs didn't also change coaches in 06 to Mike Brown. The year Mike Brown arrived they won 50 games & finally made the playoffs. Don't pretend Jordan was static and somehow not improving on both ends, which also affects team success. We know Chicago's offense/defense improved with him because they literally improved as he did:

Chicago's SRS before he joined was -4.69 (NBA worst). Their offense ranked 22nd (102.4) out of 23 teams
Chicago's SRS his rookie year was -0.50 (14th of 23). Their offense ranked 11th (108.7) out of 23 teams.

88 is the season they "arrived", so to speak. 88 is also the season Jordans defensive impact peaked. Highest DBPM of his career & led CHI in DWS, DBPM and DRating. No surprise this is also the season Chicago ranked 3rd in the NBA defensively and their continued improvement offensively put them 9th. You may also remember Jordan won DPOY

That said, if you're citing the addition of rookie Pippen/Grant as being the bigger reasons why Chicago improved you could do the same with the Cavs. In their first 50-win season, in addition to coaching change, they added Larry Hughes, Donyell Marshall and Flip Murray, who were all valuable for them (Cavs went 26-19, 47-win pace, in games Hughes didn't play. They went 23-13, 52-win pace, with him). You could argue Marshall in 06 was more impactful than Pippen or Grant in 88 going by their metrics:

Player A: WS = 4.2, VORP = 1.1, BPM = 0.1, PER = 13.4
Player B: WS = 4.2, VORP = 0.2, BPM = -1.7, PER = 13.0
Player C: WS = 1.8, VORP = 0.2, BPM = -1.3, PER = 14.0
Player D: WS = 2.3, VORP = 0.6, BPM = -0.6, PER = 12.9

A = Marshall
B = Grant
C = Hughes
D = Pippen

No big difference between them, except Marshalls clearly ahead of the pack

Though we don't need to only look at data from rookie/soph Jordan to gauge his transformative impact. Those sames 94 Bulls you guys always cite suffered a massive dropoff offensively when Jordan retired and his return caused a GOAT-level increase to offensive efficiency, as illustrated here:
https://i.ibb.co/1MbFrZd/bullsss.png

[3ball]

:facepalm:

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs


Lebron couldn't make the 2nd Round without a 2-time all-star center, the future COY, a 22/6/5 acquisition and a top rebounding/defensive team - that's easily enough to compete in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won.

Otoh, young Jordan played in a conference that required a super-team to win, yet he made the 2nd Round with a simple rebounder (oakley).

Furthermore, the 05' Cavs had a much better team defense than the 90' Bulls (#12 vs #19), while Zydrunas was a top 5 rim protector/all-star with better offense than Pippen (scoring, efficiency, PER, WS/48).

Accordingly, 90' Jordan nearly led a worse cast than the 05' Cavs to the title, while Lebron needed a much better cast than the 05' Cavs to be title-worthy.

Ultimately, anyone was going to win alongside the league's best player once expansion spread the talent around evenly in the 90's, so a special team (super-team) was no longer required to win like the 80's.

[ShawkFactory]

.
Thread Cliffs


Lebron couldn't make the 2nd Round without a 2-time all-star center, the future COY, a 22/6/5 acquisition and a top rebounding/defensive team - that's easily enough to compete in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won.

Otoh, young Jordan played in a conference that required a super-team to win, yet he made the 2nd Round with a simple rebounder (oakley).

Furthermore, the 05' Cavs had a much better team defense than the 90' Bulls (#12 vs #19), while Zydrunas was a top 5 rim protector/all-star with better offense than Pippen (scoring, efficiency, PER, WS/48).

Accordingly, 90' Jordan nearly led a worse cast than the 05' Cavs to the title, while Lebron needed a much better cast than the 05' Cavs to be title-worthy.

Ultimately, anyone was going to win alongside the league's best player once expansion spread the talent around evenly in the 90's, so a special team (super-team) was no longer required to win like the 80's.

Are we now just posting unrelated thread cliffs in threads that we weren’t even a participant in? Interesting use of your time

[LeCola]

16-0 with 50-20-20-10-10 %100 FG %100 FT

[Lebron23]

16-0 with 50-20-20-10-10 %100 FG %100 FT

Warriorfan, Are you really retarded??

[TheCorporation]

Considering MJ never managed to win a playoff series without Pippen, ever. I'm going to say he get swept again, MJ has a strong track record for getting swept in the 1st round (three times) if he doesn't have Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson.

[light]

Jordan is used to being on teams that can win 55 games without him

How would he fair on a team that only went 19-63 once LeBron left?

Jordan would not make the playoffs with the 2018 Cavaliers.

[kawhileonard2]

Considering MJ never managed to win a playoff series without Pippen, ever. I'm going to say he get swept again, MJ has a strong track record for getting swept in the 1st round (three times) if he doesn't have Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson.

Jordan turned an organization that drafted him that never won into a dynasty. Lebron won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him. He had to leave that organization to join forces with a guy who won as the man and then try to go back. Lebron leaving before ever winning with that organization that drafted to go to Miami is the definition of a coward.

[kawhileonard2]

Jordan would not make the playoffs with the 2018 Cavaliers.

Lebron couldn't make the playoffs despite playing with Rajon Rondo, Dwight Howard and the winniest organization in NBA History. He also embarassed America twice bringing home bronze medal twice.

[TheCorporation]

Jordan turned an organization that drafted him that never won into a dynasty. Lebron won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him. He had to leave that organization to join forces with a guy who won as the man and then try to go back. Lebron leaving before ever winning with that organization that drafted to go to Miami is the definition of a coward.

Considering MJ never managed to win a single playoff series without Pippen, ever...I'm going to say he gets swept again, MJ has a proven track record for getting swept in the 1st round (three times in total, yikes) if he doesn't have Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson to carry him throughout the playoffs. Without Scottie he's just a taller Allen Iverson.

[2much_knowledge]

Jordan is used to being on teams that can win 55 games without him

How would he fair on a team that only went 19-63 once LeBron left?

Was Kyrie there after lebron left? Get your shit straight. Acting like lebron was the only difference in that roster. Garbage thread.

[kawhileonard2]

Considering MJ never managed to win a single playoff series without Pippen, ever...I'm going to say he gets swept again, MJ has a proven track record for getting swept in the 1st round (three times in total, yikes) if he doesn't have Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson to carry him throughout the playoffs. Without Scottie he's just a taller Allen Iverson.

Considering Lebron never managed to win a gold medal without Kobe I'm going to say he is a coward for leaving an organization that drafted him and him never winning with them until he went back to form a superteam.

[2much_knowledge]

Considering Lebron never managed to win a gold medal without Kobe I'm going to say he is a coward for leaving an organization that drafted him and him never winning with them until he went back to form a superteam.


His feelings got hurt because Delonte was banging his mommy and Dan Gilbert was mean to him and Got tired of Pierce, Garnett and Howard owning him . Boo hoo lol

[dankok8]

I'm gonna say Jordan also makes it to the Finals and probably takes a game or two off of the Warriors.

[HoopsNY]

I'm gonna say Jordan also makes it to the Finals and probably takes a game or two off of the Warriors.

I doubt he takes a game off of that Warriors team. '88 Jordan and the Bulls lost 4-1 to the Pistons. That 2018 Warriors team was better than the '88 Pistons, so it's likely another sweep.

[mehyaM24]

they still lose. jordan wasn't known for taking mediocre help DEEP into the playoffs. there's a good chance cleveland wouldn't even make the finals.

[GrayGoat]

Swept 1st round

[dankok8]

I doubt he takes a game off of that Warriors team. '88 Jordan and the Bulls lost 4-1 to the Pistons. That 2018 Warriors team was better than the '88 Pistons, so it's likely another sweep.

I don't know. The one game Lebron was super aggressive was Game 1 and they almost won. Jordan would bring that level of aggression every game. And MJ would also easily beat the terrible level of defense Lebron displayed in those Finals. I think it's good enough to win at least one game. The 2018 Warriors were really good but they weren't invincible.

[GrayGoat]

I don't know. The one game Lebron was super aggressive was Game 1 and they almost won. Jordan would bring that level of aggression every game. And MJ would also easily beat the terrible level of defense Lebron displayed in those Finals. I think it's good enough to win at least one game. The 2018 Warriors were really good but they weren't invincible.
MJ wasn’t known for carrying scrub teams to the finals. A lot of assuming

[Gohan]

I don't know. The one game Lebron was super aggressive was Game 1 and they almost won. Jordan would bring that level of aggression every game. And MJ would also easily beat the terrible level of defense Lebron displayed in those Finals. I think it's good enough to win at least one game. The 2018 Warriors were really good but they weren't invincible.

Lmao 2018 warriors are normal they almost got that ass handed to them in 2018 if rockets would just stop shooting 3s. After they lost iggy they kind of got exposed. But rockets lost Paul too

[Hey Yo]

I don't know. The one game Lebron was super aggressive was Game 1 and they almost won. Jordan would bring that level of aggression every game. And MJ would also easily beat the terrible level of defense Lebron displayed in those Finals. I think it's good enough to win at least one game. The 2018 Warriors were really good but they weren't invincible.
MJ couldn't play more than 3 Finals in a row..... you really think his level of aggression would be high every game playing in his 8th consecutive Finals???

[3ball]

.
05' Zydrunas.... 17/9 and 2.1 blocks... 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. #12 team defense
90' Pippen........ 16/7 and 1.2 blocks... 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48... #19 team defense

[3ball]

.
THREAD CLIFFS


The 90' Bulls had the #19 defense and got less offense from their sidekick than 05' Zydrunas (see previous post), so Jordan nearly won the title with a worse cast on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs, while Lebron needed a much better cast to be title-worthy.

[mehyaM24]

.
05' Zydrunas.... 17/9 and 2.1 blocks... 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. #12 team defense
90' Pippen........ 16/7 and 1.2 blocks... 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48... #19 team defense

:biggums:

literally has nothing to do with the topic.

[3ball]

:biggums:

literally has nothing to do with the topic.


Only to someone with poor reading comp or intelligence

The 90' Bulls had the #19 defense and got less offense from their sidekick than 05' Zydrunas (see the stats you quoted), so Jordan nearly won the title with a worse cast on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs, while Lebron needed a much better cast to be title-worthy.

[mehyaM24]

Only to someone with poor reading comp or intelligence

The 90' Bulls had the #19 defense and got less offense from their sidekick than 05' Zydrunas (see the stats you quoted), so Jordan nearly won the title with a worse cast on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs, while Lebron needed a much better cast to be title-worthy.

jordan didnt "nearly win" anything. he lost in the ecf. not only that, but pippen produced more impact than big z in BPM/VORP.

again.. your stats are irrelevant and have nothing to do with the topic.

[3ball]

jordan didnt "nearly win" anything. he lost in the ecf. not only that, but pippen produced more impact than big z in BPM/VORP.

again.. your stats are irrelevant and have nothing to do with the topic.


Jordan only lost because of Pippen's migraine in Game 7

otherwise he wins with a worse cast than the 05' Cavs, whereas Lebron needed a much better cast to be title-worthy.

Btw, the 05' Cavs had better team defense, so only the offensive impact matters between Pippen/Zydrunas - and Zydrunas was superior offensively to Pippen.

So again, Jordan nearly won the title with a worse cast on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs, while Lebron needed a much better cast to be title-worthy.

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs


Lebron couldn't make the 2nd Round without a 2-time all-star center, the future COY, a 22/6/5 acquisition and a top rebounding/defensive team - that's easily enough to compete in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won.

Otoh, young Jordan played in a conference that required a super-team to win, yet he made the 2nd Round with a simple rebounder (oakley).

Furthermore, the 05' Cavs had a much better team defense than the 90' Bulls (#12 vs #19), while Zydrunas was a top 5 rim protector/all-star with better offense than Pippen (scoring, efficiency, PER, WS/48)...

Accordingly, 90' Jordan nearly won the title with a worse cast than the 05' Cavs, while Lebron needed a much better cast than the 05' Cavs to be title-worthy.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Thread Cliffs according to 3ball.

3>14. Therefore Aristotle invented Ferraris. This proves oranges taste like pomegranates.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Beat Victor Olidapo and 19 year old Tatum? I would think Kawhi or Jordan could do that in their sleep.

[3ball]

Thread Cliffs according to 3ball.

3>14. Therefore Aristotle invented Ferraris. This proves oranges taste like pomegranates.


These facts hurt you and make you post about pomegranate:

The 90' Bulls had the #19 defense and got less offense from their sidekick than 05' Zydrunas, so Jordan nearly won the title with a worse cast on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs, while Lebron needed a much better cast to be title-worthy.

facts gonna facts

[Ainosterhaspie]

These facts hurt you and make you post about pomegranate:

The 90' Bulls had the #19 defense and got less offense from their sidekick than 05' Zydrunas, so Jordan nearly won the title with a worse cast on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs, while Lebron needed a much better cast to be title-worthy.

facts gonna facts

Your post is intellectual gibberish. The thread is about the 2018 Cavs not the 2005 Cavs. LeBron wasn't the same player in 2018 as 2005. The roster is completely different other than LeBron. It's a wildly different league dynamic between those two years.

Your evaluation of the 2005 team is utter nonsense in its own right, but that's not good enough for you, you have to act like that team is more relevant than the actual team being discussed. What I wrote above makes as much sense as your endlessly regurgitated drivel.

[3ball]

Your post is intellectual gibberish. The thread is about the 2018 Cavs not the 2005 Cavs. LeBron wasn't the same player in 2018 as 2005. The roster is completely different other than LeBron. It's a wildly different league dynamic between those two years.

Your evaluation of the 2005 team is utter nonsense in its own right, but that's not good enough for you, you have to act like that team is more relevant than the actual team being discussed. What I wrote above makes as much sense as your endlessly regurgitated drivel.


The last sentence of my post was the most important but you probably didn't make it that far:

Lebron needed a much better cast than the 05' Cavs to be title-worthy...

(while 90' Jordan nearly won the title with a worse cast on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs... aka the bulls had the #19 defense and got much less offense from their sidekick than 05' Zydrunas)

[8Ball]

Thread cliffs:

1st round exit without Pippen.

[Ainosterhaspie]

No, that sentence isn't important. Its a non sequitur. It has nothing to do with the question at issue, how Jordan would do on the 2018 Cavs. It doesn't matter what a young LeBron (younger than Jordan was when he entered the league) did with the 2005 team. The thread is looking at what an older, far superior version of LeBron did with a completely different team.

You're comparing peak Jordan to LeBron at a stage where he was just beginning his development to draw conclusions about how Jordan compares to LeBron at a completely different stage in his career. Nothing about that makes any kind of sense. I'm not going to bother talking about your conclusions when your process for arriving at those conclusions is completely nonsensical.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

2018 Lebron playoff run is officially the most overrated playoff run in NBA history. They had an elite coach and a superstar in a eastern conference with no other stars besides Al Horford and Victor Oladipo. Also by the 2018 finals, Durant baptized Lebron's team and Lebron was too scared to guard him in the clutch and let JR Smith do it instead.


https://youtu.be/D9yXsuVZgnc

[3ball]

No, that sentence isn't important. Its a non sequitur. It has nothing to do with the question at issue, how Jordan would do on the 2018 Cavs. It doesn't matter what a young LeBron (younger than Jordan was when he entered the league) did with the 2005 team. The thread is looking at what an older, far superior version of LeBron did with a completely different team.

You're comparing peak Jordan to LeBron at a stage where he was just beginning his development to draw conclusions about how Jordan compares to LeBron at a completely different stage in his career. Nothing about that makes any kind of sense. I'm not going to bother talking about your conclusions when your process for arriving at those conclusions is completely nonsensical.


Prime Lebron needed a much better team than the 05' Cavs to be title-worthy...

(while 90' Jordan nearly won the title with a worse cast on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs... aka the bulls had the #19 defense and got much less offense from their sidekick than 05' Zydrunas)

[dankok8]

MJ wasn’t known for carrying scrub teams to the finals. A lot of assuming

When MJ had scrub teams he had to go through GOAT Celtics and Bad Boy Pistons. Something tells me going through teams where the best players were Oladipo, Lowry and a 19-year old Jayson Tatum would be just a tad easier.

The question in the thread was a hypothetical so there is naturally assuming but nothing I posted is remotely unreasonable.

[2much_knowledge]

Well. Since Jordan went 6/6 with Pippen and Lebron went 2/4 with Wade and Bosh, I'd say its pretty safe to assume he would at least push it to a game 7. Im sure he wouldn't be embarrassed by Durant tho.

Edit. Shit, what am i talking, Jordan just doesn't lose finals

[3ball]

When MJ had scrub teams he had to go through GOAT Celtics and Bad Boy Pistons. Something tells me going through teams where the best players were Oladipo, Lowry and a 19-year old Jayson Tatum would be just a tad easier.

The question in the thread was a hypothetical so there is naturally assuming but nothing I posted is remotely unreasonable.


The 89' Cavs are better than any team Lebron beat in the East (#1 SRS.... 3 perennial all-stars + Ron Harper) - Jordan beat them with a 6 seed and 15 on 40% from Pippen.

Otoh, Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so he has zero carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing - indeed, who cares about carry-jobs over 19 year old tatum

[Ainosterhaspie]

Prime Lebron needed a much better team than the 05' Cavs to be title-worthy...

(while 90' Jordan nearly won the title with a worse cast on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs... aka the bulls had the #19 defense and got much less offense from their sidekick than 05' Zydrunas)
Why aren't you talking about the 2018 Cavs? Why do you keeping talking about the 2005 Cavs in a thread about the 2018 Cavs? You're extrapolating where no extrapolation is needed. We're not talking about how LeBron would do with some theoretical team that never came into being. We're how he did with an actual team. No extrapolation needed. The record is there. That's what has relevance, not how he did in 2005. He had 13 years of development after that point and it produced a different season and post season than 2005.

It's like one of those hurricane forecasts where there's a huge cone of where it could make landfall and you're talking like it made landfall in Florida based on the forecast when we know it made landfall in Texas skipping Florida entirely. Let's talk about what happened when the hurricane hit Texas not what we imagine would have happened had it hit Florida.

[3ball]

Why aren't you talking about the 2018 Cavs? Why do you keeping talking about the 2005 Cavs in a thread about the 2018 Cavs? You're extrapolating where no extrapolation is needed. We're not talking about how LeBron would do with some theoretical team that never came into being. We're how he did with an actual team. No extrapolation needed. The record is there. That's what has relevance, not how he did in 2005. He had 13 years of development after that point and it produced a different season and post season than 2005.

It's like one of those hurricane forecasts where there's a huge cone of where it could make landfall and you're talking like it made landfall in Florida based on the forecast when we know it made landfall in Texas skipping Florida entirely. Let's talk about what happened when the hurricane hit Texas not what we imagine would have happened had it hit Florida.


If Jordan nearly won the title with a worse cast than the 05' Cavs, then he obviously wins easily with the 18' Cavs

That's the reason for comparing the 90' Bulls to 05' Cavs.. the 90' Bulls (worse than the 05' Cavs) nearly won title, so Jordan's 18' Cavs easily win

[Ainosterhaspie]

If Jordan nearly won the title with a worse cast than the 05' Cavs, then he obviously wins easily with the 18' Cavs

That's the reason for comparing the 90' Bulls to 05' Cavs.. the 90' Bulls (worse than the 05' Cavs) nearly won title, so Jordan's 18' Cavs easily win

Wrong. The conclusion does not logically follow from the premise. You have to establish that the 18 cast is worse than Jordan's 90 cast to make the point you are trying to make which is itself flawed. We can deal with that later. First you need to correct the fundamental flaw in your reasoning and establish that the 18 Cavs (not the 05 Cavs) were a superior cast.

[dankok8]

If Jordan nearly won the title with a worse cast than the 05' Cavs, then he obviously wins easily with the 18' Cavs

That's the reason for comparing the 90' Bulls to 05' Cavs.. the 90' Bulls (worse than the 05' Cavs) nearly won title, so Jordan's 18' Cavs easily win

Don't go too far. He wouldn't beat the Warriors.

[mehyaM24]

Jordan only lost because of Pippen's migraine in Game 7

otherwise he wins with a worse cast than the 05' Cavs, whereas Lebron needed a much better cast to be title-worthy.

Btw, the 05' Cavs had better team defense, so only the offensive impact matters between Pippen/Zydrunas - and Zydrunas was superior offensively to Pippen.

So again, Jordan nearly won the title with a worse cast on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs, while Lebron needed a much better cast to be title-worthy.

he played all but 8 minutes. if you're on the court all is fair. so while you think of another excuse, jordan still lost in the ecf. and that isn't close to a title.

moreover pippen had better impact than big z. just like the metrics "BPM/VORP" indicate. facts make your posts irrelevant to the topic - but that's common for you.

[3ball]

Wrong. The conclusion does not logically follow from the premise. You have to establish that the 18 cast is worse than Jordan's 90 cast to make the point you are trying to make which is itself flawed. We can deal with that later. First you need to correct the fundamental flaw in your reasoning and establish that the 18 Cavs (not the 05 Cavs) were a superior cast.


we've established the 05' Cavs compare favorably to the 90' Bulls, so why wouldn't the 18' Cavs?

Are you saying the 05' Cavs > 18' Cavs?

[Ainosterhaspie]

we've established the 05' Cavs compare favorably to the 90' Bulls, so why wouldn't the 18' Cavs?

Are you saying the 05' Cavs > 18' Cavs?

No "we" haven't established that. You keep arguing that, and I'm not going to address it because it doesn't logically connect to your conclusion. You are the one making a claim not me. I'm asking you to support your claim. You are adding a layer of reasoning that unnecessarily complicates the argument and is likely to lead to faulty conclusions.

The argument should be '18 Cavs > '90 Bulls, not '18 Cavs > '05 Cavs > '90 Bulls. You haven't made the correct argument yet.

[Hey Yo]

Well. Since Jordan went 6/6 with Pippen and Lebron went 2/4 with Wade and Bosh, I'd say its pretty safe to assume he would at least push it to a game 7. Im sure he wouldn't be embarrassed by Durant tho.

Edit. Shit, what am i talking, Jordan just doesn't lose finals

History had proven that MJ wasn't able to play more than 7 full consecutive seasons.... you really think he could play and prevail in 8 straight Finals appearances????

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

No "we" haven't established that. You keep arguing that, and I'm not going to address it because it doesn't logically connect to your conclusion. You are the one making a claim not me. I'm asking you to support your claim. You are adding a layer of reasoning that unnecessarily complicates the argument and is likely to lead to faulty conclusions.

The argument should be '18 Cavs > '90 Bulls, not '18 Cavs > '05 Cavs > '90 Bulls. You haven't made the correct argument yet.


Here's what we know:

For prime Lebron to have a title-worthy team, he needed a much better cast than the 05' Cavs, while 90' Jordan nearly won the title with a comparable cast on both sides of the ball (a much worse defense and less offense from sidekicks)

[ShawkFactory]

we've established the 05' Cavs compare favorably to the 90' Bulls, so why wouldn't the 18' Cavs?

Are you saying the 05' Cavs > 18' Cavs?

The 05 Cavs are better than 18 Cavs in every metric you’ve ever used

[8Ball]

Jordan is used to being on teams that can win 55 games without him

How would he fair on a team that only went 19-63 once LeBron left?

Jordan with a 19-63 team would win about 40 games and get swept in the first round.


Jordan needs 55 win teams. Like Kawhi joining the 55 win Raptors (60 win pace in 2020).

[3ball]

The 05 Cavs are better than 18 Cavs in every metric you’ve ever used





Ok, so the older lebron made the Finals with them, just like he should've done with his developed, high seeds and league favorites in 09' and 10'

Unfortunately, he lacked the jumpshooting, clutch and strategy at that time, so he ceded those easy runs to Dwight's 1-star team... ultimately, only Lebron's super-teams from 11-17' interrupted a trend of 1-star teams winning the East (07', 09'....... 19', 20')

[Ainosterhaspie]

Ok, so the older lebron made the Finals with them, just like he should've done with his developed, high seeds and league favorites in 09' and 10'

Unfortunately, he lacked the jumpshooting, clutch and strategy at that time, so he ceded those easy runs to Dwight's 1-star team... ultimately, only Lebron's super-teams from 11-17' interrupted a trend of 1-star teams winning the East (07', 09'....... 19', 20')

Drifting away from the topic at hand again. How would Jordan (you apparently picked 90 Jordan in particular) do with the 2018 Cavs roster? 2009 LeBron and roster are not relevant to that question.

[3ball]

Drifting away from the topic at hand again. How would Jordan (you apparently picked 90 Jordan in particular) do with the 2018 Cavs roster? 2009 LeBron and roster are not relevant to that question.


90' Jordan would sweep the 18' Celtics and make the Finals without fanfare, since he nearly made the 90' Finals with a cast that compared to the 05' Cavs

In the Finals, Jordan would win Game 1 by hitting the winner over Curry like he did in the 97' Finals.. after that, all bets are off.. Love would be Bird alongside MJ, and the team would be galvanized and playing amazing

Btw, Jordan took the dynasty Pistons to 7 games with a worse cast than the 18' Cavs, so he could beat the Warriors with those Cavs

[Ainosterhaspie]

90' Jordan would sweep the 18' Celtics and make the Finals without fanfare, since he nearly made the 90' Finals with a cast that compared to the 05' Cavs
Again. '05 Cavs aren't relevant. It's like you've got tourettes or something and can't get to the point without blurting that out.


Btw, Jordan took the dynasty Pistons to 7 games with a worse cast than the 18' Cavs, so he could beat the Warriors with those Cavs
Finally, you seem to be putting together your argument. OK. The 90 Bulls were a worse cast than the 18 Cavs. Please support that assertion.

[ELITEpower23]

Not far.

https://i.postimg.cc/MKHR5th8/Str8-up-passed.jpg

[2much_knowledge]

History had proven that MJ wasn't able to play more than 7 full consecutive seasons.... you really think he could play and prevail in 8 straight Finals appearances????

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Sound like a broken record. Are you obsessed with Kareem and karl Malone too?

[LeCola]

4-3 against Pacers
4-0 against loser bros
4-3 against Boston that is led by Rookie Tatum and Rozier (No Kyrie)
4-0 against Gsw that lost 5 games in playoffs

Dudes, it is not a success story. Spurs, Pelicans won against Gsw, Rockets played game 7. Sweep is actually failure.

[HoopsNY]

they still lose. jordan wasn't known for taking mediocre help DEEP into the playoffs. there's a good chance cleveland wouldn't even make the finals.

It's entirely reasonable that he makes it to the finals in 2018. Keep in mind, in 2018, the Celtics lost Kyrie for the ECF. What does the outcome look like if he plays, especially when in game 7, the Celtics scored just 79 points? There's no reason why MJ doesn't lead that team to the finals given those circumstances.

[Axe]

History had proven that MJ wasn't able to play more than 7 full consecutive seasons.... you really think he could play and prevail in 8 straight Finals appearances????

:roll: :roll: :roll:
Maga turd at it again with the miniscule iq. :sleeping

Baldan played for nine full seasons (1984-93) before he got suspended for his gambling antics.

[3ball]

It's entirely reasonable that he makes it to the finals in 2018. Keep in mind, in 2018, the Celtics lost Kyrie for the ECF. What does the outcome look like if he plays, especially when in game 7, the Celtics scored just 79 points? There's no reason why MJ doesn't lead that team to the finals given those circumstances.


MJ never lost to a team as bad as the 18' Celtics

This idea that he wouldn't "carry" Love and company through a bunch of weak teams defies the historical record

And only MJ beat top 5 SRS teams with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so only MJ has carry-jobs against good teams

[HoopsNY]

MJ never lost to a team as bad as the 18' Celtics

This idea that he wouldn't "carry" Love and company through a bunch of weak teams defies the historical record

And only MJ beat top 5 SRS teams with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so only MJ has carry-jobs against good teams

Yea but the 2018 Cavs cast was pitiful. So it's not a fair comparison. Jordan lost when his cast was pitiful so it's a reasonable point of debate.

[mehyaM24]

It's entirely reasonable that he makes it to the finals in 2018. Keep in mind, in 2018, the Celtics lost Kyrie for the ECF. What does the outcome look like if he plays, especially when in game 7, the Celtics scored just 79 points? There's no reason why MJ doesn't lead that team to the finals given those circumstances.

yup. not saying it isn't. only pointing out that its ALSO possible jordan doesn't make the finals. based on his track record, without pippen, its more than plausible. ultimately i think it depends on what version of jordan we're talking about.

[Axe]

It's entirely reasonable that he makes it to the finals in 2018. Keep in mind, in 2018, the Celtics lost Kyrie for the ECF. What does the outcome look like if he plays, especially when in game 7, the Celtics scored just 79 points? There's no reason why MJ doesn't lead that team to the finals given those circumstances.
Kyrie irving never played during the 2018 postseason.

[Shooter]

Not far.

https://i.postimg.cc/MKHR5th8/Str8-up-passed.jpg

:roll::lol

[3ball]

Yea but the 2018 Cavs cast was pitiful. So it's not a fair comparison. Jordan lost when his cast was pitiful so it's a reasonable point of debate.


PLAYOFFS

17' Rodney Hood (jazz)......... 8.9 ppg... 25 mpg
18' Rodney Hood (cavs)........ 5.4 ppg... 15 mgg
19' Rodney Hood (blazers).... 9.9 ppg... 23 mpg


^^^ Hood couldn't get playing time because the Cavs were stacked with superior veterans like Love, Crowder, Smith, Korver, Green, Hill - this cast includes the best 2nd option in the conference and an organic, experienced team of champions..

For some reason everyone else's organic teammates are lionized into great teammates and teams but the few times lebron did okay with an organic cast that grew together, people MISS it

Ultimately, the 18' Cavs were the an experienced team of champion vets and far superior to any Bulls cast until 92'

[Shooter]

PLAYOFFS

17' Rodney Hood (jazz)......... 8.9 ppg... 25 mpg
18' Rodney Hood (cavs)........ 5.4 ppg... 15 mgg
19' Rodney Hood (blazers).... 9.9 ppg... 23 mpg


^^^ Hood couldn't get playing time because the Cavs were stacked with superior veterans like Love, Crowder, Smith, Korver, Green, Hill - this cast includes the best 2nd option in the conference and an organic, experienced team of champions..

For some reason everyone else's organic teammates are lionized into great teammates and teams but the few times lebron did okay with an organic cast that grew together, people MISS it

Ultimately, the 18' Cavs were the an experienced team of champion vets and far superior to any Bulls cast until 92'

Is Rodney Hood better than Scottie Pippen?

[3ball]

Is Rodney Hood better than Scottie Pippen?


No, but champion vets like Korver, Smith, Green, Hill, Crowder and Love had all played better than 90' Pippen ever had.. and as a whole, they were far superior to the cast members that Jordan had until 92'

[HoopsNY]

PLAYOFFS

17' Rodney Hood (jazz)......... 8.9 ppg... 25 mpg
18' Rodney Hood (cavs)........ 5.4 ppg... 15 mgg
19' Rodney Hood (blazers).... 9.9 ppg... 23 mpg


^^^ Hood couldn't get playing time because the Cavs were stacked with superior veterans like Love, Crowder, Smith, Korver, Green, Hill - this cast includes the best 2nd option in the conference and an organic, experienced team of champions..

For some reason everyone else's organic teammates are lionized into great teammates and teams but the few times lebron did okay with an organic cast that grew together, people MISS it

Ultimately, the 18' Cavs were the an experienced team of champion vets and far superior to any Bulls cast until 92'

Love was the best second option in 2018 in the Eastern Conference? I'd rather have Ben Simmons, Wall, or Middleton than Love from 2018.

[3ball]

Love was the best second option in 2018 in the Eastern Conference? I'd rather have Ben Simmons, Wall, or Middleton than Love from 2018.


You wouldn't say that about 14' Love, but it's easy to say that after he didn't fit with Lebron's skillset

Ultimately, Lebron's run through the 18' East is nothing compared to Jordan's 6 seed beating the #1 SRS team in 89', and then beating the 52-win Knicks - then they were competitive vs the champs, while Lebron was blown away by record amount

Btw, 18' Love stepped up with 19/11 against the good team in the Finals after weak comp in the East (similar to 13' Wade).. that kind of production from a sidekick always won Jordan the title, but unfortunately, Lebron's team lacked the ball movement and were blown away in team assists by the Warriors

[2much_knowledge]

Jordan with a 19-63 team would win about 40 games and get swept in the first round.


Jordan needs 55 win teams. Like Kawhi joining the 55 win Raptors (60 win pace in 2020).

Jordan stays and makes teams win over 55 games. He doesn't join them. Let me repeat that again. He doesn't join them

Cool theory but not realistic

[HoopsNY]

You wouldn't say that about 14' Love, but it's easy to say that after he didn't fit with Lebron's skillset

Ultimately, Lebron's run through the 18' East is nothing compared to Jordan's 6 seed beating the #1 SRS team in 89', and then beating the 52-win Knicks - then they were competitive vs the champs, while Lebron was blown away by record amount

Btw, 18' Love stepped up with 19/11 against the good team in the Finals after weak comp in the East (similar to 13' Wade).. that kind of production from a sidekick always won Jordan the title, but unfortunately, Lebron's team lacked the ball movement and were blown away in team assists by the Warriors

I don't think that happens without LeBron on the court. Love has averaged 17 PPG on 43% since that time, showing that he can't do what he did in Minnesota. I agree that LeBron hurts and doesn't help talent develop, but that is not the original argument you posed.

You stated that Love was the best second option in the Eastern Conference that year. I disagree, though he was easily top 3-4.

[ShawkFactory]

PLAYOFFS

17' Rodney Hood (jazz)......... 8.9 ppg... 25 mpg
18' Rodney Hood (cavs)........ 5.4 ppg... 15 mgg
19' Rodney Hood (blazers).... 9.9 ppg... 23 mpg


^^^ Hood couldn't get playing time because the Cavs were stacked with superior veterans like Love, Crowder, Smith, Korver, Green, Hill - this cast includes the best 2nd option in the conference and an organic, experienced team of champions..

For some reason everyone else's organic teammates are lionized into great teammates and teams but the few times lebron did okay with an organic cast that grew together, people MISS it

Ultimately, the 18' Cavs were the an experienced team of champion vets and far superior to any Bulls cast until 92'

Playoffs:

1991 Bulls 2-4 players

WS/48
Pippen- .197
Grant- .189
Paxon- .140

VORP/BPM
Pippen- 6.5/1.5
Grant- 2.2/0.7
Paxon- -0.8/0.1

2018 Cavs

WS/48
Thompson- .135
Korver- .092
Love- .073

VORP/BPM
Korver- 0.2/0.3
Thompson- -0.2/0.2
Love- -0.9/0.2

Note: I did not include guys who played less than 20 minutes. Although Thompson and Korver played 23 and 21 minutes, respectively.

So not only were Jordan’s guys more valuable per minute, they played far more minutes (41 and 39 for Pippen and Grant)

On top of that, the Bulls had the #3 defense. The Cavs? 26th.

[Hey Yo]

Sound like a broken record. Are you obsessed with Kareem and karl Malone too?

A broke record that spews facts that you can't handle.

2018 LeBron was playing in his 8th consecutive Finals. Jordan wasn't able to try to make 4 consecutive Finals w/o quitting the league each time. Those are facts that can't be refuted. So what kind of playing shape would MJ be in, playing in his 15 consecutive season and in his 8th consecutive Finals??

[And1AllDay]

Not far.

https://i.postimg.cc/MKHR5th8/Str8-up-passed.jpg

:oldlol::roll:

[Ainosterhaspie]

PLAYOFFS

17' Rodney Hood (jazz)......... 8.9 ppg... 25 mpg
18' Rodney Hood (cavs)........ 5.4 ppg... 15 mgg
19' Rodney Hood (blazers).... 9.9 ppg... 23 mpg


^^^ Hood couldn't get playing time because the Cavs were stacked with superior veterans like Love, Crowder, Smith, Korver, Green, Hill - this cast includes the best 2nd option in the conference and an organic, experienced team of champions..

For some reason everyone else's organic teammates are lionized into great teammates and teams but the few times lebron did okay with an organic cast that grew together, people MISS it

Ultimately, the 18' Cavs were the an experienced team of champion vets and far superior to any Bulls cast until 92'


No, but champion vets like Korver, Smith, Green, Hill, Crowder and Love had all played better than 90' Pippen ever had.. and as a whole, they were far superior to the cast members that Jordan had until 92'
As usual you have no understanding of the game or what went down in 2018. You mention Hood. He played like crap with the Cavs. I don't know if it was an inability to handle the pressure of being on a team with actual championship aspirations, or what, but he did not play well. Same story with Crowder. Seems like their personalities were more fit for plucky overachiever teams than a team that had been there before and had high expectations. And it's not a story of LeBron ball ruined them or anything like that. Plenty of other role players did just fine, but those two couldn't handle it.

Kevin Love was injured and ineffective most of the early rounds and as usual was a defensive liability. I'm not even trying to attack him. He was a key piece in the success of the Cavs offense which reached record heights in 2017. He deserves a ton of credit for his role in that, but in the 2018 playoffs, he was limited by injury.

Smith and Thompson were both massively important to the 2016 title, both taking turns at various points dominating other teams to an extent thereby lessening James' burden, or stepping up at key moments shifting momentum or bridging the gap between great moments by LeBron or Kyrie. They deserve large amounts of credit for 2016. But then they got big contracts and never looked the same again. In 2018 they were only shadows of their formerly great role player selves.

No one on the Cavs other than LeBron seemed capable of scoring. You always criticise Pipoen for not showing up. In the first round, James most prolific scoring help came from Love's 11.4 ppg on .459 TS%. I'm not trying to attack Love. He showed up with a screwed up hand and did what he could, but that's abysmal help. LeBron's scoring was more than 20 points higher and that was his only double digit scoring teammate.

ECF Love had 12.5 on .480. Again the only double digit scoring teammate for James on abominable efficiency. It took LeBron two buzzer beating shots to drag that cast into the finals. With LeBron outscoring his number 2 by more than 20 points in two series, and in both of those series not getting even 10ppg from anyone else.

That Cavs team was an atrocious team defensively with the second worst DRtg in the league. They had no one capable of shutting down guys on ball and poor rim protection.

People were criticizing LeBron for not playing defense (LeBron who was working a grueling, unprecedented modern record of 8 straight finals appearances in his mid 30s) that year, but he still had defensive chops there. I remember a random regular season game where a guard (Schroeder if memory serves) was lighting them up in the first half. James took the assignment in the second half and shut him down. James had no business being the guy that had to do that given his age and postseason load, but no one else was capable of it. James was an elite defender still, but the Cavs as a whole couldn't or wouldn't play d.

By the 3ball standard repeated ad nauseum comparing the 05 Cavs and 90 Bulls, LeBron's second option averaged 14.9 on .511 TS in the 2018 post season. Jordan's second option in the 90 playoffs averaged 19.3 on .569 TS. This wasn't just slightly better, it was significantly better. The other key metric is defense according to the 3ball rationale. Cavs were #29/30, Bulls were #19/27 in the regular season a clear step above the Cavs, but more tellingly the Bulls were #3 in post season that year while Cavs were only #10.

Jordan couldn't win with a 19ppg second option and a #3 post season defense, so he couldn't win with a 14ppg second option #10 defense. This is 3ball's rationale and definitively answers the question posed in the OP (at least as far as 3ball is concerned, others with more reasonable rationales that they don't have to constantly change to maintain the preferred narrative may have a different take). The answer is no, not even peak Jordan could do what old, tired, post peak LeBron did with the 2018 Cavs.

[FireDavidKahn]

Doesn't get nearly as far.

[3ball]

Jordan couldn't win with a 19ppg second option and a #3 post season defense, so he couldn't win with a 14ppg second option #10 defense. This is 3ball's rationale and definitively answers the question posed in the OP (at least as far as 3ball is concerned, others with more reasonable rationales that they don't have to constantly change to maintain the preferred narrative may have a different take). The answer is no, not even peak Jordan could do what old, tired, post peak LeBron did with the 2018 Cavs.


05' Zydrunas.... 17/9 and 2.1 blocks.. 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. #12 team defense
90' Pippen........ 16/7 and 1.2 blocks.. 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48.. #19 team defense


^^^ 90' Jordan nearly won the title with a worse cast than the 05' Cavs on both sides of the ball (the bulls had the #19 defense and a sidekick with worse offense than 05' Zydrunas).

Otoh, prime Lebron needed a much better cast than the 05' Cavs to be title-worthy - he wasn't title-worthy with the #19 defense and weak offensive teammates like 90' Jordan was.... :confusedshrug:






3ball is concerned, others with more reasonable rationales





Ultimately, Jordan was an 8 seed without Pippen, while Lebron was a 9 seed with the East all-star center (05'), and then with Ingram/Rondo/Green/Kuzma (19')

Again - the Lebron/Zydrunas all-star duo were lottery, and needed to acquire a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY to make the playoffs in 06'.. That's a lot of help and easily enough help to compete in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won, while Jordan just had a rebounder (oakley) in a conference that required a super-team to win.

So Lebron sucks compared to Jordan and the facts always show this..

[Ainosterhaspie]

LMAO. I've already been through that with you in this thread. 05 Cavaliers tell us nothing about 18 Cavaliers. You can't substitute them in as a proxy and compare them to the 90 Bulls and act like it says anything about the 18 Cavs. If this was 2005 and you were trying to make a prediction about the future, that would make sense, bit once the future happens those projections are rendered meaningless by what actually happened.

Your inability to process and retain basic concepts like this is why everyone on this board knows you're suffering from some form of cognitive impairment. Seriously get it looked at. Your arguments when looked at as a whole are completely irrational.

[3ball]

LMAO. I've already been through that with you in this thread. 05 Cavaliers tell us nothing about 18 Cavaliers. You can't substitute them in as a proxy and compare them to the 90 Bulls and act like it says anything about the 18 Cavs. If this was 2005 and you were trying to make a prediction about the future, that would make sense, bit once the future happens those projections are rendered meaningless by what actually happened.

Your inability to process and retain basic concepts like this is why everyone on this board knows you're suffering from some form of cognitive impairment. Seriously get it looked at. Your arguments when looked at as a whole are completely irrational.


the 90' Bulls had WEAKER offensive teammates than the 05' Cavs, and a WEAKER defense, but both teams were rookies compared to the champion vets on the 18' Cavs

You can't compare veteran champions to rookie and sophomore teams like the 90' Bulls or 05' Cavs

[Ainosterhaspie]

the 90' Bulls had WEAKER offensive teammates than the 05' Cavs, and a WEAKER defense, but both teams were rookies compared to the champion vets on the 18' Cavs

You can't compare veteran champions to rookie and sophomore teams like the 90' Bulls or 05' Cavs
You picked the comparison not me. If it doesn't work, that's your problem not mind. You don't want to use 90 Jordan, fine. Pick another version. But you don't get to use 05 LeBron and 05 Cavs to draw conclusions about 18 LeBron and 18 Cavs that presume that the 18 Cavs and LeBron performed differently than they actually performed.

If that's too confusing for you. Try again. You still aren't making a rational argument.

[3ball]

You picked the comparison not me. If it doesn't work, that's your problem not mind. You don't want to use 90 Jordan, fine. Pick another version. But you don't get to use 05 LeBron and 05 Cavs to draw conclusions about 18 LeBron and 18 Cavs that presume that the 18 Cavs and LeBron performed differently than they actually performed.

If that's too confusing for you. Try again. You still aren't making a rational argument.


Lebron was a veteran champion in 2018 but was beaten by record amount, while pre-title Jordan was nearly beating the champs with a young team.

So you're trying to compare champion lebron to pre-title Jordan, and Jordan still outperforms him

Ultimately, prime Lebron needed a much better cast than the 05' Cavs to be title-worthy and Jordan didn't..

[SATAN]

ECF loss imo

Raptors had essentially someone just as good as MJ on their roster

[HoopsNY]

ECF loss imo

Raptors had essentially someone just as good as MJ on their roster

Who in their right mind would equate DeRozan with Jordan? Is DeRozan even top 100 all-time, let alone a top 5 player in his own era?

[Axe]

Who in their right mind would equate DeRozan with Jordan? Is DeRozan even top 100 all-time, let alone a top 5 player in his own era?
Apparently that would mean derozan is a ballhog too, even tho he isn't. Lmao.

[And1AllDay]

ECF loss imo

Raptors had essentially someone just as good as MJ on their roster

:oldlol::roll:

[light]

Look at this all-time great starting 5 for the Cavs in the 2018 Finals:

George Hill
JR Smith
LeBron James
Kevin Love
Tristan Thompson

Vs

Steph Curry
Klay Thompson
Kevin Durant
Draymond Green
Kevon Looney

The fact that this Finals matchup even happened is mind blowing, but that’s how truly great LeBron is.

Everyone knows that MJ was not capable of carrying a team like the 2018 Cavs anywhere. Even his most ardent supporters understand that.

[2much_knowledge]

Who in their right mind would equate DeRozan with Jordan? Is DeRozan even top 100 all-time, let alone a top 5 player in his own era?

He is not right in the head. Gotta admire the willingness to make a jackass out of himself tho