Scottie Pippen's Peak Compared to other 1990s Stars (Advanced Stats)

[Roundball_Rock]

There has been a lot of discussion of how high Pippen ranked among his peers at his peak. Ultimately that is a subjective judgement but here I am going to list advanced stats peaks for Pippen and his peers who people have posited as better (I did not include Jordan or Hakeem since they weren’t being debated). Whether you agree or disagree with the merit of any individual stat, there is value in comparing the relative peaks of each player across multiple stats.

Keep in mind players peak at different times. That has been lost in the discussion. There aren’t only five top 5 players in a given era. Moreover, not every player stays at that level an equal length of time. With these caveats, here is the data:

Pippen: VORP 3rd, PER 4th, Box plus/minus 3rd, Win Shares 5th
Ewing: VORP 8th, PER 6th, Box plus/minus 10th, Win Shares 6th
Drexler: VORP 4th, PER 4th, Box plus/minus 4th, Win Shares 5th
Payton: VORP 9th, PER 8th, Box plus/minus 4th, Win Shares 3rd
Barkley: VORP 4th, PER 2nd, Box plus/minus 2nd, Win Shares 2nd
Malone: VORP 1st, PER 1st, Box plus/minus 2nd, Win Shares 1st
Miller: VORP 8th, PER 16th, Box plus/minus 8th, Win Shares 6th
Wilkins: VORP 5th, PER 5th, Box plus/minus 7th, Win Shares 5th
Johnson: VORP 9th, PER 6th, Box plus/minus 8th, Win Shares 8th
Richmond: VORP 11th, PER 13th, Box plus/minus 19th, Win Shares 17th
Price: VORP 9th, PER 8th, Box plus/minus 6th, Win Shares 9th


Some observations:

*It is interesting how well Pippen compares to Ewing, Drexler, Payton, and Miller. These are players who Pippen detractors (aka Jordan stans) always praise.
*Malone consistently is the best of this group.
*Wilkins’ advanced stats suggest he is being underrated.

[TheCorporation]

His 3 straight years in the Finals (91, 92, 93) is unprecedneted for a #2 option

21/9/7/2/1 on 46% and goat tier Defense

[knicksman]

Pippen is an iguodala type of player. You can win with him through luck ala 2000s detroit but hes not a player worth building around.

[Roundball_Rock]

His 3 straight years in the Finals (91, 92, 93) is unprecedneted for a #2 option

21/9/7/2/1 on 46% and goat tier Defense

Yeah the only thing that is comparable is early Magic, and he wasn't providing the defense Pippen was.


Pippen is an iguodala type of player.

So the 90s were an era where an Iggy player was a superstar and better than guys like Ewing, Drexler, Miller, Payton, etc.? It is funny how Pippen detractors never square that circle.

[97 bulls]

Pippen is an iguodala type of player. You can win with him through luck ala 2000s detroit but hes not a player worth building around.

Iguodala is a poor mans Pippen.

[LostCause]

Couple notable omissions here (DRob, Shaq etc)

Also, are you excluding the 90 season and starting at 91?

[sdot_thadon]

There has been a lot of discussion of how high Pippen ranked among his peers at his peak. Ultimately that is a subjective judgement but here I am going to list advanced stats peaks for Pippen and his peers who people have posited as better (I did not include Jordan or Hakeem since they weren’t being debated). Whether you agree or disagree with the merit of any individual stat, there is value in comparing the relative peaks of each player across multiple stats.

Keep in mind players peak at different times. That has been lost in the discussion. There aren’t only five top 5 players in a given era. Moreover, not every player stays at that level an equal length of time. With these caveats, here is the data:

Pippen: VORP 3rd, PER 4th, Box plus/minus 3rd, Win Shares 5th
Ewing: VORP 8th, PER 6th, Box plus/minus 10th, Win Shares 6th
Drexler: VORP 4th, PER 4th, Box plus/minus 4th, Win Shares 5th
Payton: VORP 9th, PER 8th, Box plus/minus 4th, Win Shares 3rd
Barkley: VORP 4th, PER 2nd, Box plus/minus 2nd, Win Shares 2nd
Malone: VORP 1st, PER 1st, Box plus/minus 2nd, Win Shares 1st
Miller: VORP 8th, PER 16th, Box plus/minus 8th, Win Shares 6th
Wilkins: VORP 5th, PER 5th, Box plus/minus 7th, Win Shares 5th
Johnson: VORP 9th, PER 6th, Box plus/minus 8th, Win Shares 8th
Richmond: VORP 11th, PER 13th, Box plus/minus 19th, Win Shares 17th
Price: VORP 9th, PER 8th, Box plus/minus 6th, Win Shares 9th


Some observations:

*It is interesting how well Pippen compares to Ewing, Drexler, Payton, and Miller. These are players who Pippen detractors (aka Jordan stans) always praise.
*Malone consistently is the best of this group.
*Wilkins’ advanced stats suggest he is being underrated.

great post. So only 2 guys in that list definitively peaked higher than Scottie with the data provided? Interesting, but I'm pretty sure he's not as high when it comes to raw stats right?

[Roundball_Rock]

Couple notable omissions here (DRob, Shaq etc)

Also, are you excluding the 90 season and starting at 91?

I didn't include Shaq because he is not of the same generation as the players listed. His early prime overlapped with them but the bulk of his prime was after these guys got old and/or retired. I didn't include Hakeem, Robinson, or Jordan because they aren't really disputed. Maybe Robinson is retrospectively but he was not at the time.

The players I listed are players Pippen detractors proffer to say Pippen was not a top 5 player or even a top 10 player (with the more extreme MJ stans).

I didn't include or exclude any seasons. I listed their career peaks. It varies by metric, but Wilkins generally peaked in 87' and Payton the 00' season.


So only 2 guys in that list definitively peaked higher than Scottie with the data provided? Interesting, but I'm pretty sure he's not as high when it comes to raw stats right?

It depends. Raw stats are trickier because you are comparing across positions so big men will always have a lot more rebounds but less assists, for example. SFs are particularly hurt statistically since they usually fall in the middle of categories. Generally, Pippen looks worse on paper than he was because a lot of what he did does not show up on the stat sheet, part of his value was to be able to do everything (so production across the board but outside of steals he wouldn't challenge for the league lead), and because of the bias towards scoring (a guy like Wilkins looks better on paper as a result).

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen haters avoiding data like the plague.

[Docs Orders]

:applause:

[knicksman]

Yeah the only thing that is comparable is early Magic, and he wasn't providing the defense Pippen was.



So the 90s were an era where an Iggy player was a superstar and better than guys like Ewing, Drexler, Miller, Payton, etc.? It is funny how Pippen detractors never square that circle.

Seriously, the game isnt played on statsheet. of course his advanced stats are great coz hes playing on a champion. Put him in a toxic environment and his stats plummet. As Ive said, hes lucky to play with mj who is unselfish and willing to sacrifice his personal glory to let others shine. Thats what winners do. Put him alongside lebron/westbrook and you guys will be calling him scrub. Just look at rondo right now. LOL Thats why we dont care about stats. We only care about rings.. And MJ delivered.

[AirBonner]

Seriously, the game isnt played on statsheet. of course his advanced stats are great coz hes playing on a champion. Put him in a toxic environment and his stats plummet. As Ive said, hes lucky to play with mj who is unselfish and willing to sacrifice his personal glory to let others shine. Thats what winners do. Put him alongside lebron/westbrook and you guys will be calling him scrub. Just look at rondo right now. LOL Thats why we dont care about stats. We only care about rings.. And MJ delivered.

He won 55 games without MJ. Pippen’s D doesn’t show up on a stat sheet because it’s too big. Iggy was a great 6th man that is it. Pippen was a 2nd option. Not comparable to anyone who made it past kindergarten

[knicksman]

I want your attention

ok bro

[Roundball_Rock]

He won 55 games without MJ. Pippen’s D doesn’t show up on a stat sheet because it’s too big. Iggy was a great 6th man that is it. Pippen was a 2nd option. Not comparable to anyone who made it past kindergarten

Exactly. Plus, it is dumb to say being on a winning team inflates stats. Being on a championship caliber team deflates stats. Who has went from a bad or average team to a championship level situation and had his stats go up?

[Round Mound]

Anyone who saw Pippen in his prime knows how good he was.

If he didn't have MJ shooting 24-25 Field Goat Attempts per Game he would probably averaged 22-23 PPG on 48% FG, 8.5-9.0 RPG, 5.5-6 APG, 2.5-3.0 SPG and 1 BPG for most of his career.

We all know he is the best defensive SF ever too.

[SATAN]

Pippen is an iguodala type of player.

:roll::facepalm

[YouKnowWhatItIs]

:roll::facepalm

What’s so funny? Are you saying Iguodala and Pippen aren’t similar?

[Roundball_Rock]

Anyone who saw Pippen in his prime knows how good he was.

If he didn't have MJ shooting 24-25 Field Goat Attempts per Game he would probably averaged 22-23 PPG on 48% FG, 8.5-9.0 RPG, 5.5-6 APG, 2.5-3.0 SPG and 1 BPG for most of his career.

We all know he is the best defensive SF ever too.

:applause:

[Ronin45]

Why isn’t Hakeem, D-Rob, and Shaq listed? If we are talking 1990s stars? Already knew Nique was underrated.

[Roundball_Rock]

Why isn’t Hakeem, D-Rob, and Shaq listed? If we are talking 1990s stars? Already knew Nique was underrated.

Shaq is of a different generation. Hakeem, D Rob, and MJ aren't there because no one is really arguing Pippen was better than them. Barkley and Malone are better career wise than Pippen but he was better than Barkley during his peak and had a case over Malone as well (Pippen got more all-NBA votes than Malone 2 of 3 years from 1994 to 1996).

[trada7029]

I'm not sure what value there is in posting Pippen's stats from his best year

It means nothing to say that in Pippen's best year, he matched the standard level that other stars remained at - and didn't need a 3-peat cast or system to be good

We saw that Pippen was a 14 ppg player without the system in 89' and 99'

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm not sure what value there is in posting Pippen's stats from his best year

It is because people like you (before your recent banning, 3ball) went around saying Pippen was not a superstar. Some even said he was not even a top 10 player at his peak.

[Jacks3]

All those numbers are 100% box-score derived. I'm not sure if they really tell us anything outside of a quick snapchat of box-score production.

[Soundwave]

Anyone who saw Pippen in his prime knows how good he was.

If he didn't have MJ shooting 24-25 Field Goat Attempts per Game he would probably averaged 22-23 PPG on 48% FG, 8.5-9.0 RPG, 5.5-6 APG, 2.5-3.0 SPG and 1 BPG for most of his career.

We all know he is the best defensive SF ever too.

Pippen had the better part of two seasons in his athletic peak/prime to top 22 ppg and still couldn't manage it without Jordan.

That just wasn't in him.

His offensive game maxed out at about 22 ppg.

[97 bulls]

Pippen had the better part of two seasons in his athletic peak/prime to top 22 ppg and still couldn't manage it without Jordan.

That just wasn't in him.
And this boys and girls is why we have to constantly hear the 1-9 argument.

[Soundwave]

And this boys and girls is why we have to constantly hear the 1-9 argument.

As if anyone but eight 16 year olds on this board really give a f*ck about that. You don't see that on any other sports board anywhere. That just shows the Bulls were a junk tier franchise (done nothing before Jordan and unsurprisingly nothing since) that lucked into the best player ever and were fortunate that he stayed loyal to them even as they took years to build a proper team around him.

[97 bulls]

As if anyone but eight 16 year olds on this board really give a f*ck about that. You don't see that on any other sports board anywhere. That just shows the Bulls were a junk tier franchise (done nothing before Jordan and unsurprisingly nothing since) that lucked into the best player ever and were fortunate that he stayed loyal to them even as they took years to build a proper team around him.

Lol. I see that 1-9 argument EVERYWHERE.

[LeCroix]

And this boys and girls is why we have to constantly hear the 1-9 argument.

True words, the diminish of Scottie will double diminish back on Michael. 97 Bulls is smart MJ fan and others are not

[Roundball_Rock]

And this boys and girls is why we have to constantly hear the 1-9 argument.

Exactly. You notice how he doesn't respond to the data in the OP? Yet he is always there to take a shot at Pippen :oldlol: .

Soundwave, what is your response to this:

Pippen: VORP 3rd, PER 4th, Box plus/minus 3rd, Win Shares 5th
Ewing: VORP 8th, PER 6th, Box plus/minus 10th, Win Shares 6th
Drexler: VORP 4th, PER 4th, Box plus/minus 4th, Win Shares 5th
Payton: VORP 9th, PER 8th, Box plus/minus 4th, Win Shares 3rd
Miller: VORP 8th, PER 16th, Box plus/minus 8th, Win Shares 6th


All those numbers are 100% box-score derived. I'm not sure if they really tell us anything outside of a quick snapchat of box-score production.


The value is it allows us to 1) compare across positions 2) quantify a player's ranking. You can't do either with traditional stats. How do you rank players who averaged 20/11/3, a player who was 22/7/5, or 12/4/9 with traditional stats?


You don't see that on any other sports board anywhere.

I see it all over the place. You are in your MJ bubble. Earlier you said almost no one has LeBron as GOAT. Look at my poll.

[97 bulls]

Exactly. You notice how he doesn't respond to the data in the OP? Yet he is always there to take a shot at Pippen :oldlol: .

Soundwave, what is your response to this:

Pippen: VORP 3rd, PER 4th, Box plus/minus 3rd, Win Shares 5th
Ewing: VORP 8th, PER 6th, Box plus/minus 10th, Win Shares 6th
Drexler: VORP 4th, PER 4th, Box plus/minus 4th, Win Shares 5th
Payton: VORP 9th, PER 8th, Box plus/minus 4th, Win Shares 3rd
Miller: VORP 8th, PER 16th, Box plus/minus 8th, Win Shares 6th



The value is it allows us to 1) compare across positions 2) quantify a player's ranking. You can't do either with traditional stats. How do you rank players who averaged 20/11/3, a player who was 22/7/5, or 12/4/9 with traditional stats?



I see it all over the place. You are in your MJ bubble. Earlier you said almost no one has LeBron as GOAT. Look at my poll.
Off course he wont. And to add to the information, Pip led the playoffs in Defensive Rating as well in 91 and 96

[Roundball_Rock]

Off course he wont. And to add to the information, Pip led the playoffs in Defensive Rating as well in 91 and 96

It's sad. All this because he is insecure about MJ and worries that Pippen being a great player somehow diminishes MJ's greatness.

[Duncan21formvp]

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558



CHICAGO -- The Detroit Pistons may have toughened up the Bulls in the late 1980s and early 1990s, but Jerry Krause wouldn't give the Bad Boys any undue credit for contributing to Scottie Pippen's basketball manhood or his Hall of Fame career.

"No, Michael [Jordan] made him a man," said the Bulls' former general manager, now a scout for the White Sox. "The Pistons didn't have anything to do with that. Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And then when Phil [Jackson] brought the triangle [offense] in, it really helped him because he had all the physical skills to be great."





"And he had Michael to beat on him for a year every day in practice and Michael beat him to death," Krause said. "The practices were great because you could see him at the end of the year start to grow and start to fight Michael . . ."

[Roundball_Rock]

Players have evolve just like humans do. Jordan said his first year coach "made me the player I became" and no one ever mentions it.


it really helped him because he had all the physical skills to be great."

I notice you didn't bold that? Pippen was the #5 pick. Detroit tried to trade up to get him because they projected him to be a superstar. Bill Russell wanted him at #6. Other teams did as well, like Cleveland. MJ wasn't on any of these rosters. Talent wins out. Kawhi, Harden, Butler are great current examples of this.

The funny thing is MJ has been in DC and Charlotte forever. How is player development going there?

[Duncan21formvp]

Players have evolve just like humans do. Jordan said his first year coach "made me the player I became" and no one ever mentions it.



I notice you didn't bold that? Pippen was the #5 pick. Detroit tried to trade up to get him because they projected him to be a superstar. Bill Russell wanted him at #6. Other teams did as well, like Cleveland. MJ wasn't on any of these rosters.

The funny thing is MJ has been in DC and Charlotte forever. How is player development going there?
Pretty good! Won gold medals. Others greats have brought bronze medals to America in basketball.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pretty good! Won gold medals. Others greats have brought bronze medals to America in basketball.

The Wizards and Bobcats won gold medals? News to me. Who did they beat?

The bold exposes you aren't a real Duncan fan. Just an alt for a MJ stan.

[Duncan21formvp]

The Wizards and Bobcats won gold medals? News to me. Who did they beat?

The bold exposes you aren't a real Duncan fan. Just an alt for a MJ stan.
The Olympics are the measuring stick for anything around the world. That is the true world champion. If you losing to foreign nations in basketball you aren't that good in basketball and that is a fact. Prove me wrong!

[LeCroix]

The Olympics are the measuring stick for anything around the world. That is the true world champion. If you losing to foreign nations in basketball you aren't that good in basketball and that is a fact. Prove me wrong!

You are so easy to be defeated. International play was very small and limited in the 80s. If you are bold enough topost a gold medal game USA oponent I will applaud your boldness. You will not you will disappear.

Poof be gone. Post this 'olympic competition' mj played. Be bold (and dummy).

[Duncan21formvp]

MJ didn’t get bronze medals

The Olympics are the measuring stick for anything around the world. That is the true world champion. If you losing to foreign nations in basketball you aren't that good in basketball and that is a fact. Prove me wrong! I want to see gold medals in the olympics and fiba in 2004 and 2006 for players born in the 50 states

[Ronin45]

Shaq is of a different generation. Hakeem, D Rob, and MJ aren't there because no one is really arguing Pippen was better than them. Barkley and Malone are better career wise than Pippen but he was better than Barkley during his peak and had a case over Malone as well (Pippen got more all-NBA votes than Malone 2 of 3 years from 1994 to 1996).
Shaq played in 7 of 10 years of the 90s, kiddo. No one in their right mind thinks on an individual non resume based level that Scottie was better than Barkley or Malone. Especially considering peaks.

[LeCroix]

MJ didn’t get bronze medals

The Olympics are the measuring stick for anything around the world. That is the true world champion. If you losing to foreign nations in basketball you aren't that good in basketball and that is a fact. Prove me wrong! I want to see gold medals in the olympics and fiba in 2004 and 2006 for players born in the 50 states

This is the 84 gold medal opponent for michael

https://pasteboard.co/J5Hqy0K.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/GtBprXXX/Spain-Team84.jpg

Now what

[97 bulls]

Shaq played in 7 of 10 years of the 90s, kiddo. No one in their right mind thinks on an individual non resume based level that Scottie was better than Barkley or Malone. Especially considering peaks.

I do. Maybe not Malone. But Barkley? Yes because of his lack of conditioning and terrible defense

[Round Mound]

It's sad. All this because he is insecure about MJ and worries that Pippen being a great player somehow diminishes MJ's greatness.

:applause:

[ClipperRevival]

I do. Maybe not Malone. But Barkley? Yes because of his lack of conditioning and terrible defense

LOL. Pip better peak than Chuck? Even I don't like Chuck's no D playing ass but the Pip overrating is so real these days. :facepalm

[Round Mound]

Barkley prime and peak is easily the GOAT for Powerforwards. Like Bird he did not have the best longevity but Barkley was considered the 2nd best player in the game from 89-90 to 92-93. Pippen is not on Barkley's level. He is alsot not on Malone's level either.

[ClipperRevival]

Shaq is of a different generation. Hakeem, D Rob, and MJ aren't there because no one is really arguing Pippen was better than them. Barkley and Malone are better career wise than Pippen but he was better than Barkley during his peak and had a case over Malone as well (Pippen got more all-NBA votes than Malone 2 of 3 years from 1994 to 1996).

:facepalm

Shaq came into the league in 1992. You Pip slurpers are starting to resemble Bron fans the way you move the goal post.

[LAL]

:facepalm

Shaq came into the league in 1992. You Pip slurpers are starting to resemble Bron fans the way you move the goal post.

They are bron fans. Straight up clowns.

[GimmeThat]

when you reduce the salary variance for comparison in the 90s, the playing style between franchises were a lot more like 5-card draws then texas hold'em

[Roundball_Rock]

The Olympics are the measuring stick for anything around the world.

Who was the best player on the Dream Team according to Chuck Daly?


No one in their right mind thinks on an individual non resume based level that Scottie was better than Barkley or Malone.

A typical sleight of hand: no one is saying he was. What we are saying is he was at his peak. "No one in their right mind..." Where is Barkley on these lists and why is Malone behind him 2 of his 3 peak years?

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1994

1) Pippen (forward) 94
2) Hakeem (center) 68
3) Malone (forward) 65
4) Stockton (guard) 56
5) Sprewell (guard) 29

Pippen crushed everyone in the voting. You can let Hakeem slide because he was at the same position as Robinson and that cost him a lot of votes. Robinson was considered on par with Hakeem at the time. However, look at Pippen's vote and compare that to the other forwards and guards. Karl Malone was a top 5 player for practically all of the 90's, right? Pippen crushed him 94-68 in the voting. No, Pippen playing SF and Malone PF was not a factor. All-NBA voting is done on a forward/center/guard basis. Several times in the 90's two PF's, especially Malone and Barkley, took the two forward spots on the first team.

A quick internet search revealed the following for his other peak seasons:


Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1995

1) Malone (F) 519
2) Robinson (C) 479
3) Pippen (F) 451
4) Stockton (G) 447
5) P. Hardaway (G) 394

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/12/sp...s-all-nba.html

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1996

1) Jordan (G) 113 (unanimous)
2) Pippen (F) 91
3) Hardaway (G) 90
4) Malone (F) 89
5) Robinson (C) 65

Since we know there were 113 voters Pippen received 81% of the vote. He got hurt during the final fifth of the season and his production declined so that surely cost him some votes. The margin between him and #3 and #4 would be greater if he didn't get hurt. Still, the guy gets hurt and averages 15 ppg for one-fifth of the season (21-22 ppg before that) and he still gets more votes than anyone not named Jordan.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/05/24/sp...tar-again.html

This is voting for the all-NBA team. Regarding the all-Defensive team, Pippen received the most votes in 1994. And in 1995. And in 1996. Yes, also in 1997. So to recap, these were his finishes during his peak:

All-NBA voting: 1st, 3rd, 2nd
All-Defensive voting: 1st, 1st, 1st

Scottie may never have been a top 5 player but if he wasn't he sure had a lot of people fooled at the time.



Shaq played in 7 of 10 years of the 90s,

Fun with numbers. That means he played the bulk of his career outside of the 90s.


Barkley prime and peak is easily the GOAT for Powerforwards.

Agreed but Barkley wasn't the same MVP level Barkley from 94' onward, which coincided with Pippen hitting his peak years.


Shaq came into the league in 1992

His first season was the 93' season. If people want to include Shaq, there is nothing to stop you from getting his info.


They are bron fans

Yes, and we were Kobe stans before. I get most MJ stans didn't watch in the 90s, but Pippen was a popular player. Surprise, surprise: he had fans!

[LAL]

Yes, and we were Kobe stans before. I get most MJ stans didn't watch in the 90s, but Pippen was a popular player. Surprise, surprise: he had fans!

I'm a Kobe fan before MJ fan.. you're not fooling anyone bronsexual. Most kobe fans are not as delusional and desperate as you. Your arguments just suck. Dwade and Irving also have fans surprise surprise. They just lost more with lebron.

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm a Kobe fan before MJ fan.. you're not fooling anyone bronsexual.

Pippen fans do not exist, therefore anyone who is defending Pippen from the MJ stans' constant attacks must be a closet LeBron stan. The same thing was said to us for many years: except then we supposedly were closet Kobe stans. In 5 years MJ stans will say we are closet Giannis stans.

It is dumb but I can see where insecure MJ stans are coming from: after all, they jumped on the biggest bandwagon of all-time so they can't grasp why anyone would root for another Bull.
Re Kobe stans, they are fascinating. They used to say the same stuff about Pippen but switched to become sidekicks to MJ stans because they think elevating MJ, diminishing LeBron somehow helps Kobe (spoiler: it doesn't).

Pippen was third in endorsements at the height of his popularity (which I know because I actually watched back then). I don't think either of those guys got that high.

To reset the thread:

1) No one is contesting the info presented.
2) There is a sleight of hand MJ stans raise to push Pippen out the top 5 by saying Pippen was not top 5 over the decade as a whole. This is slick because it is aimed exactly at dumb people: fans who don't grasp that the top 5 shifts over time. It is not the same 5 people for the entire decade.
3) There is a mini-rant about Shaq being a 90s player. If he is a 90s player, Kareem is an 80s player and LeBron a 00s player, Jordan an 80s player, etc. Players are defined by their best years.

[97 bulls]

LOL. Pip better peak than Chuck? Even I don't like Chuck's no D playing ass but the Pip overrating is so real these days. :facepalm

It's not a matter of overeating anybody. Talent wise? Barkley's combination of strength, skills, and athleticism is probably on the level of Jordan, Chamberlain, and James. But theres a reason why Bob Knight cut Barkley from the US Olympic team in 84. His work ethic was terrible. His willingness to play defense and practice was non-existent.

Listen to this video. Skip to the 2 min mark
https://youtu.be/ePv2YdWXjsw

This is why he never won a championship. And this is what's so frustrating with todays NBA fan. Do you want stats? Or Championships? Frequenting this forum has shown that some of these people would much rather have the stats and then spend a lifetime trying to explain away and blaming everyone around them as to why they didnt win. The fact is the Suns should've won in 93. Or at least went to game 7. It was Barkleys terrible defense that cost them that game. Go back and look at that last play vs the Bulls.

https://youtu.be/GnAr4I3-Z48

Barkley (maybe he choked) overplayed Pippen, which caused the defense to break down and scramble. Which left Paxson wide open.

Could Barkely fill a stat sheet? Yes. Even better than Pippen. But he just wasnt gonna lead a team to a Championship. Not because of a lack of talent. But due to a lack of willingness.

[Phoenix]

Shaq was kind of a bridge player. You could make the argument that he had more 'great' years in the 90's though all his championships came in the 00's. He was pretty much a shell after 06.

[Roundball_Rock]

Shaq was kind of a bridge player. You could make the argument that he had more 'great' years in the 90's though all his championships came in the 00's. He was pretty much a shell after 06.

If they want to include Shaq they can Google and get his info. They can't contest the point of the OP so Shaq is a deflection. I'll do another post with year-by-year info for Pippen's prime. That will include Shaq, MJ, Hakeem, and Robinson.


Could Barkely fill a stat sheet? Yes. Even better than Pippen. But he just wasnt gonna lead a team to a Championship. Not because of a lack of talent. But due to a lack of willingness.

I have to disagree with you (rare disagreement!). I would take Barkley over Pippen for a career. I would take Pippen over Barkley from 1994-1998, though. Barkley at his peak was better than Malone, Robinson, and even Hakeem (93' they were close but in the prior years Barkley was better).

What MJ stans obfuscate is there isn't a light years gap between the two. For instance, Slam Magazine had Barkley #20 all-time, Malone #21. Guess where Pippen was? #22. Ewing was 30th, Robinson 29th, Drexler 43rd, Payton 39th, Miller 55th. (Insecure MJ stans will tell you Ewing, Drexler, Payton, Miller were all vastly better than Pippen yet they are always far behind him on the AT lists.)

Usually Pippen is not that close to Barkley and Malone but he is usually 4-6 spots behind them. The way these guys talk Pippen is Paul Pierce or Carmelo.

[97 bulls]

If they want to include Shaq they can Google and get his info. They can't contest the point of the OP so Shaq is a deflection. I'll do another post with year-by-year info for Pippen's prime. That will include Shaq, MJ, Hakeem, and Robinson.



I have to disagree with you (rare disagreement!). I would take Barkley over Pippen for a career. I would take Pippen over Barkley from 1994-1998, though. Barkley at his peak was better than Malone, Robinson, and even Hakeem (93' they were close but in the prior years Barkley was better).

What MJ stans obfuscate is there isn't a light years gap between the two. For instance, Slam Magazine had Barkley #20 all-time, Malone #21. Guess where Pippen was? #22. Ewing was 30th, Robinson 29th, Drexler 43rd, Payton 39th, Miller 55th. (Insecure MJ stans will tell you Ewing, Drexler, Payton, Miller were all vastly better than Pippen yet they are always far behind him on the AT lists.)

Usually Pippen is not that close to Barkley and Malone but he is usually 4-6 spots behind them. The way these guys talk Pippen is Paul Pierce or Carmelo.

Lol. It's cool to disagree bro. But look at the videos I posted. I cant put a guy that was routinely fat and out of shape ahead of a 6 time champ and arguably the best perimeter defender ever. Bob Knight would agree with me.

[LAL]

Pippen fans do not exist, therefore anyone who is defending Pippen from the MJ stans' constant attacks must be a closet LeBron stan. The same thing was said to us for many years: except then we supposedly were closet Kobe stans. In 5 years MJ stans will say we are closet Giannis stans.

It is dumb but I can see where insecure MJ stans are coming from: after all, they jumped on the biggest bandwagon of all-time so they can't grasp why anyone would root for another Bull.
Re Kobe stans, they are fascinating. They used to say the same stuff about Pippen but switched to become sidekicks to MJ stans because they think elevating MJ, diminishing LeBron somehow helps Kobe (spoiler: it doesn't).

Pippen was third in endorsements at the height of his popularity (which I know because I actually watched back then). I don't think either of those guys got that high.

To reset the thread:

1) No one is contesting the info presented.
2) There is a sleight of hand MJ stans raise to push Pippen out the top 5 by saying Pippen was not top 5 over the decade as a whole. This is slick because it is aimed exactly at dumb people: fans who don't grasp that the top 5 shifts over time. It is not the same 5 people for the entire decade.
3) There is a mini-rant about Shaq being a 90s player. If he is a 90s player, Kareem is an 80s player and LeBron a 00s player, Jordan an 80s player, etc. Players are defined by their best years.
You're underrating MJ and overrating scottie. It looks ridiculous.

[Roundball_Rock]

You're underrating MJ and overrating scottie. It looks ridiculous.

Is having MJ #2 all-time when most people have him #1 "underrating"? Re Pippen, I have him in the same range he always fall in on expert lists. It is MJ stans who are the outliers on Pippen by saying he wasn't even top 50 all-time, etc.


I cant put a guy that was routinely fat and out of shape ahead of a 6 time champ and arguably the best perimeter defender ever

If Barkley took better care of himself he could have extended his prime. That is the difference between him and Malone. Barkley was better prime versus prime but Malone is considered better now by most because he lasted forever while Barkley broke down.

[LAL]

Is having MJ #2 all-time when most people have him #1 "underrating"? Re Pippen, I have him in the same range he always fall in on expert lists. It is MJ stans who are the outliers on Pippen by saying he wasn't even top 50 all-time, etc.



If Barkley took better care of himself he could have extended his prime. That is the difference between him and Malone. Barkley was better prime versus prime but Malone is considered better now by most because he lasted forever while Barkley broke down.

Who's your favourite player and who do you have as #1? Nobody said anything about not being top 50, but alot has changed since 1997 when he was one of 50 best. You are constantly trying to underrate everything MJ by bringing up how great his team and sidekick was.. i've seen a lot of stars with great second options? Again, why the constant pippen posts? And yes being a sidekick was the perfect role for scottie, his ceiling because offensively very inconsistent (no stats just eye test as a fan).. why bring that up and nothing about MJ's game, leadership, pippen's flaws etc? What is the point of all these pippen posts? How good was he in your eyes?

[trada7029]

Nonsense itt

[trada7029]

Let's see what the stats say

[trada7029]

:rolleyes:

[trada7029]

.
Playoffs

Kyrie 16-17'...... 23.9 ppg.. 57.3 ts.. 41% threes.. 89% ft.. 23.0 PER.. 0.181 ws/48
Pippen 91-96'... 19.8 ppg.. 52.4 ts.. 28% threes.. 72% ft.. 19.7 PER.. 0.157 ws/48

Kyrie 16-17'...... outplayed league mvp.. hit Finals-winning shot
Pippen 91-96'... outplayed by schrempf.. no winning shots


Finals

Kyrie 16' & 17'..... 28.0 on 46.5%
Pippen 6 Finals... 19.0 on 42.5%



09' Mo Will RS... 18/3/4.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 17.1 PER.. 0.165 ws.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
89' Pippen RS.... 14/6/4.. 52.4 ts.. 102 ORtg.. 14.9 PER.. 0.080 ws.. 1.4 bpm.. 2.1 vorp

09' Mo Will ECF....... 18/3/4.. 50.5 ts.. 102 ORtg.. #3 def... lost to #4 SRS (2 all-stars)
89' Pippen 1st Rd'... 15/9/4.. 51.0 ts.. 102 ORtg.. #11 def.. beat #1 SRS (3 all-stars*)

* plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper


^^^ MJ beat a better team than Dwight's Magic with less help on both sides of the ball



Finals Stats

Wade 11-14'...... 21.1 ppg.. 5.2 rpg.. 4.5 apg.. 47.9%
Pippen Career... 19.0 ppg.. 8.3 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 42.5%
Wade' Career..... 23.9 ppg.. 5.7 rpg.. 4.3 apg.. 47.6%


Playoff Stats

Wade.. 11-14' Playoffs... 20.3.. 5.2.. 4.3.. 47.5 fg.. 53.9 ts.. 21.6 PER
Pippen 96-98' Playoffs... 17.6.. 7.1.. 5.0.. 40.8 fg.. 50.0 ts.. 19.0 PER
Pippen 91-93' Playoffs... 20.3.. 8.2.. 6.0.. 47.8 fg.. 53.6 ts.. 19.6 PER


Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm

^^^ Wade's stats in 13-14' equaled prime Pippen numbers (20/5/5 on 48% in 13' Finals) - so people complain about 13-14' Wade because he'd been reduced to prime Pippen numbers and vice versa - people complain about Pippen because he produced like 13-14' Wade



Rookie Worthy averaged 22 on 64% in the 84' Finals - surely that would've beaten the 89' and 90' Bad Boys instead of Pippen's 9 on 40%.

So if Piston-killer Worthy played with MJ instead of Pippen,, that would've made Worthy better than Pippen in HS, college, draft and a 2-ring headstart as a young pro (89/90) - there's no way Pippen overcomes this to still be ranked higher all-time.. he simply won the "play with MJ" lottery, so the winning spotlight inflates his inferior production above his superior peers..

This Worthy example can be done with any immediate-impact player like Dominique, Grant Hill, or Derrick Coleman, who were all better than Pippen, bit simply didn't win the "play with MJ" lottery

Ultimately, Lebron and Pippen both need shooters and closers around them, so they can't help each other.. and lebron needs a ball-handler that is an elite iso player, which Pippen is not

And lebron has a history of not fitting with players like Pippen, aka Ingram, Hughes, Jamison, Bosh..

[ClipperRevival]

.
Playoffs

Kyrie 16-17'...... 23.9 ppg.. 57.3 ts.. 41% threes.. 89% ft.. 23.0 PER.. 0.181 ws/48
Pippen 91-96'... 19.8 ppg.. 52.4 ts.. 28% threes.. 72% ft.. 19.7 PER.. 0.157 ws/48

Kyrie 16-17'...... outplayed league mvp.. hit Finals-winning shot
Pippen 91-96'... outplayed by schrempf.. no winning shots


Finals

Kyrie 16' & 17'..... 28.0 on 46.5%
Pippen 6 Finals... 19.0 on 42.5%



09' Mo Will RS... 18/3/4.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 17.1 PER.. 0.165 ws.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
89' Pippen RS.... 14/6/4.. 52.4 ts.. 102 ORtg.. 14.9 PER.. 0.080 ws.. 1.4 bpm.. 2.1 vorp

09' Mo Will ECF....... 18/3/4.. 50.5 ts.. 102 ORtg.. #3 def... lost to #4 SRS (2 all-stars)
89' Pippen 1st Rd'... 15/9/4.. 51.0 ts.. 102 ORtg.. #11 def.. beat #1 SRS (3 all-stars*)

* plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper


^^^ MJ beat a better team than Dwight's Magic with less help on both sides of the ball



Finals Stats

Wade 11-14'...... 21.1 ppg.. 5.2 rpg.. 4.5 apg.. 47.9%
Pippen Career... 19.0 ppg.. 8.3 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 42.5%
Wade' Career..... 23.9 ppg.. 5.7 rpg.. 4.3 apg.. 47.6%


Playoff Stats

Wade.. 11-14' Playoffs... 20.3.. 5.2.. 4.3.. 47.5 fg.. 53.9 ts.. 21.6 PER
Pippen 96-98' Playoffs... 17.6.. 7.1.. 5.0.. 40.8 fg.. 50.0 ts.. 19.0 PER
Pippen 91-93' Playoffs... 20.3.. 8.2.. 6.0.. 47.8 fg.. 53.6 ts.. 19.6 PER


Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm

^^^ Wade's stats in 13-14' equaled prime Pippen numbers (20/5/5 on 48% in 13' Finals) - so people complain about 13-14' Wade because he'd been reduced to prime Pippen numbers and vice versa - people complain about Pippen because he produced like 13-14' Wade



Rookie Worthy averaged 22 on 64% in the 84' Finals - surely that would've beaten the 89' and 90' Bad Boys instead of Pippen's 9 on 40%.

So if Piston-killer Worthy played with MJ instead of Pippen,, that would've made Worthy better than Pippen in HS, college, draft and a 2-ring headstart as a young pro (89/90) - there's no way Pippen overcomes this to still be ranked higher all-time.. he simply won the "play with MJ" lottery, so the winning spotlight inflates his inferior production above his superior peers..

This Worthy example can be done with any immediate-impact player like Dominique, Grant Hill, or Derrick Coleman, who were all better than Pippen, bit simply didn't win the "play with MJ" lottery

Ultimately, Lebron and Pippen both need shooters and closers around them, so they can't help each other.. and lebron needs a ball-handler that is an elite iso player, which Pippen is not

And lebron has a history of not fitting with players like Pippen, aka Ingram, Hughes, Jamison, Bosh..

Hi 3ball. :yaohappy:

You got to mix it up a bit man, it's too obvious.

[Roundball_Rock]

Who's your favourite player and who do you have as #1?

Pippen, Kareem.


Nobody said anything about not being top 50, but alot has changed since 1997 when he was one of 50 best

It is irrelevant, unless you, like the MJ crowd thinks Pippen is borderline top 50. On expert lists he is always in the top 20-30 range, so well within the top 50 even now.


You are constantly trying to underrate everything MJ by bringing up how great his team and sidekick was

Fans promote their favorites. Why is that surprising? We literally have an entire 10 part documentary promoting MJ with a range of associated segments on all the sports channels, podcasts, etc. :lol

Jordan could have the greatest team or the worst team. It doesn't change what he was as a player. MJ stans are insecure.


What is the point of all these pippen posts? How good was he in your eyes?

MJ stans are out there daily attacking Pippen and then are shocked--shocked! that Pippen fans will want to defend Pippen. Just because we are outnumbered vastly doesn't mean we don't exist. Only insecure MJ stans do this BTW. You don't see armies of LeBron stans saying Wade sucked or Durant stans ripping Curry, etc.

He was a top 5 player at his peak, probably peaking at #3 in 94'. Top 25-30 all-time. The "sidekick" stuff is silly because it lumps in a large number of disparate players. Pippen, early Kobe, early Magic, David Robinson, Havlicek are not the same type of "sidekick" as Parker, Gasol, Worthy, Klay, McHale, Dumars, and co. He wasn't Jordan but no one from that era was.

[LAL]

Pippen, Kareem.



It is irrelevant, unless you, like the MJ crowd thinks Pippen is borderline top 50. On expert lists he is always in the top 20-30 range, so well within the top 50 even now.



Fans promote their favorites. Why is that surprising? We literally have an entire 10 part documentary promoting MJ with a range of associated segments on all the sports channels, podcasts, etc. :lol

Jordan could have the greatest team or the worst team. It doesn't change what he was as a player. MJ stans are insecure.



MJ stans are out there daily attacking Pippen and then are shocked--shocked! that Pippen fans will want to defend Pippen. Just because we are outnumbered vastly doesn't mean we don't exist. Only insecure MJ stans do this BTW. You don't see armies of LeBron stans saying Wade sucked or Durant stans ripping Curry, etc.

He was a top 5 player at his peak, probably peaking at #3 in 94'. Top 25-30 all-time. The "sidekick" stuff is silly because it lumps in a large number of disparate players. Pippen, early Kobe, early Magic, David Robinson, Havlicek are not the same type of "sidekick" as Parker, Gasol, Worthy, Klay, McHale, Dumars, and co. He wasn't Jordan but no one from that era was.
So you're a die hard pippen fan who is tired of all the praise The Goat receives. So you come here to try to diminish his legacy with arguments like reg season wins in 94? What a battle.

You never noticed all the KD, Kawhi, Kobe, Curry, MJ hate coming from bron stans? You think MJ fans are worse? I'm team Kobe, trust me i go up against both, bronsexuals are the worst. It hurts them more than anyone that MJ is the goat, they come up with the worst arguments and it looks ridiculous because mj was better at everything. Atleast kobe fans come up with better arguments than bronstans or pippen fans.

[LostCause]

You don't see armies of LeBron stans saying Wade sucked

You sure about that? Lol

[Roundball_Rock]

So you're a die hard pippen fan who is tired of all the praise The Goat receives. So you come here to try to diminish his legacy with arguments like reg season wins in 94? What a battle.

I was pro-MJ when I started here. Jordan was my second favorite player in the 90's, for obvious reasons.

Again, his legacy is not affected either way. Why are you all so insecure? He had a great team. So what? All the top 10 guys did. Why do only MJ stans insist it was "MJ and scrubs"?


You never noticed all the KD, Kawhi, Kobe, Curry, MJ hate coming from bron stans?

The MJ stuff for sure but I also remember when LeBron fans didn't care about Jordan and MJ stans promoted LeBron. Both fan bases aimed their fire at Kobe stans, who would attack both MJ and LeBron. What changed? MJ stans got insecure and started hitting LeBron 24/7 while Kobe stans gave up the ghost and decided that promoting MJ somehow helps Kobe.

The common denominator between LeBron, Kobe, and Pippen fans is responding to the fusillades coming from MJ stans. MJ stans dominate the media so are shocked to see the reactions from fans.


It hurts them more than anyone that MJ is the goat, they come up with the worst arguments and it looks ridiculous because mj was better at everything

They were minding their own business until MJ stans got insecure. Who is the fan base who is hurt again?

Jordan was better but he was not "better at everything." The Jordan stuff has gotten to ridiculous levels and you have people who like Jordan pushing back against it as a result.


Atleast kobe fans come up with better arguments than bronstans or pippen fans

Kobe stans were for Pippen before they were against him. They now whine about people saying exactly what they said for years. Kobe stans can hold a debate between their current and previous positions on Pippen, Jordan, etc.


You sure about that?

How many threads dissing Wade do you see? Twitter and Facebook memes against Wade? Maybe I am missing it all. Can you show me?

Anyway, do you have any substance to add to the thread or are you just going to complain over your insecurities? If MJ is so fragile that his team getting credit causes him to collapse, you guys have bigger issues.

[LAL]

I was pro-MJ when I started here. Jordan was my second favorite player in the 90's, for obvious reasons.

Again, his legacy is not affected either way. Why are you all so insecure? He had a great team. So what? All the top 10 guys did. Why do only MJ stans insist it was "MJ and scrubs"?



The MJ stuff for sure but I also remember when LeBron fans didn't care about Jordan and MJ stans promoted LeBron. Both fan bases aimed their fire at Kobe stans, who would attack both MJ and LeBron. What changed? MJ stans got insecure and started hitting LeBron 24/7 while Kobe stans gave up the ghost and decided that promoting MJ somehow helps Kobe.

The common denominator between LeBron, Kobe, and Pippen fans is responding to the fusillades coming from MJ stans. MJ stans dominate the media so are shocked to see the reactions from fans.



They were minding their own business until MJ stans got insecure. Who is the fan base who is hurt again?

Jordan was better but he was not "better at everything." The Jordan stuff has gotten to ridiculous levels and you have people who like Jordan pushing back against it as a result.



Kobe stans were for Pippen before they were against him. They now whine about people saying exactly what they said for years. Kobe stans can hold a debate between their current and previous positions on Pippen, Jordan, etc.



How many threads dissing Wade do you see? Twitter and Facebook memes against Wade? Maybe I am missing it all. Can you show me?

Anyway, do you have any substance to add to the thread or are you just going to complain over your insecurities? If MJ is so fragile that his team getting credit causes him to collapse, you guys have bigger issues.

Bronsexual for sure :lol

[trada7029]

Pippen, Kareem.



It is irrelevant, unless you, like the MJ crowd thinks Pippen is borderline top 50. On expert lists he is always in the top 20-30 range, so well within the top 50 even now.



Fans promote their favorites. Why is that surprising? We literally have an entire 10 part documentary promoting MJ with a range of associated segments on all the sports channels, podcasts, etc. :lol

Jordan could have the greatest team or the worst team. It doesn't change what he was as a player. MJ stans are insecure.



MJ stans are out there daily attacking Pippen and then are shocked--shocked! that Pippen fans will want to defend Pippen. Just because we are outnumbered vastly doesn't mean we don't exist. Only insecure MJ stans do this BTW. You don't see armies of LeBron stans saying Wade sucked or Durant stans ripping Curry, etc.

He was a top 5 player at his peak, probably peaking at #3 in 94'. Top 25-30 all-time. The "sidekick" stuff is silly because it lumps in a large number of disparate players. Pippen, early Kobe, early Magic, David Robinson, Havlicek are not the same type of "sidekick" as Parker, Gasol, Worthy, Klay, McHale, Dumars, and co. He wasn't Jordan but no one from that era was.
^^^ that's proof you weren't of age during the 1st three-peat, when Pippen infact had no fans

And Pippen was never considered better than Ewing... Ever... It's pure revisionist history to put Pippen ahead of all these guys

[LostCause]

How many threads dissing Wade do you see? Twitter and Facebook memes against Wade? Maybe I am missing it all. Can you show me?

There were just like 2-4 of them last week
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?479419-Which-championship-run-was-Pippen-as-bad-as-2013-Wade
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?479450-How-many-great-playoff-runs-did-Wade-have



Anyway, do you have any substance to add to the thread or are you just going to complain over your insecurities? If MJ is so fragile that his team getting credit causes him to collapse, you guys have bigger issues.

This seems like an overreaction

[Roundball_Rock]

There were just like 2-4 of them last week
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?479419-Which-championship-run-was-Pippen-as-bad-as-2013-Wade
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?479450-How-many-great-playoff-runs-did-Wade-have

Really? First, these two threads are from "Mamba4Life." Unless he is an extremely rare joint Kobe-LeBron fan, presumably he is a Kobe fan, not a LeBron fan.

One is clearly neutral in the OP: it asks how many great playoff runs he had. There are 5 responses. Any Pippen thread goes a zillion pages because each one has the MJ brigade showing up to bash Pippen (the advanced stats thread is an exception because MJ stans are allergic to facts).

The other thread got traction--but only because Pippen was involved. The responses are the usual MJ stans saying how much Pippen sucks like they do in every Pippen thread. Where are the LeBron guys dissing Wade?

So you looked and found nothing.


that's proof you weren't of age during the 1st three-peat, when Pippen infact had no fans

:lol

[trada7029]

If Pippen was so good, how come his prime stats = 13-14' Wade stats? (21/6/5... 21 PER)

Is that why people complain about 13-14' Wade? It's because he was reduced to prime Pippen?

[LostCause]

Really? First, these two threads are from "Mamba4Life." Unless he is an extremely rare joint Kobe-LeBron fan, presumably he is a Kobe fan, not a LeBron fan.

Right, and ClipperRevival is a Clippers fan, not a Jordan stan (Or BronBron23 is a Bron stan) :facepalm


One is clearly neutral in the OP: it asks how many great playoff runs he had. There are 5 responses. Any Pippen thread goes a zillion pages because each one has the MJ brigade showing up to bash Pippen (the advanced stats thread is an exception because MJ stans are allergic to facts).

The other thread got traction--but only because Pippen was involved. The responses are the usual MJ stans saying how much Pippen sucks like they do in every Pippen thread. Where are the LeBron guys dissing Wade?

So you looked and found nothing.

You're obviously being disingenuous here, which isn't surprising

The first link very clearly establishes that Wade was bad in the title itself. The responses concerning Pippen are because the thread asked which run was Pippen as bad as Wade in (So your bolded text is off base and just fluff). I'm guessing you chose to pretend to not know what that thread was about because you actually made the most posts in it, which obviously goes against your own narrative

Second link is similar to the first. Attempting to undermine Wade's career. Sure, the title is neutral, then the agenda becomes clear by the OPs own posts in the thread

This isn't hard

[Roundball_Rock]

You're obviously being disingenuous here, which isn't surprising

You are projecting again.


The first link very clearly establishes that Wade was bad in the title itself

Disingenuous--I did not dispute that it had an anti-Wade tenor in the title. What I said in plain English:

The other thread got traction--but only because Pippen was involved. The responses are the usual MJ stans saying how much Pippen sucks like they do in every Pippen thread. Where are the LeBron guys dissing Wade?

Samuari, guy, 3ball, you, Soundwave, LAL, etc. are in every Pippen thread.


Second link is similar to the first

The second thread went nowhere. So your example is a thread where anti-Wade bait was served...and no one bought.

As a comparison, the Pippen/Wade thread was chock full of fans of one retired player ripping Pippen. That's the tell: it is always MJ stans (basically the same guys) in every Pippen thread.

[Roundball_Rock]

Do you have any actual examples of LeBron stans going after Wade? I could pull up any Pippen thread and show you several MJ stans taking the anti-Pippen side.

It was the same thing in 2009 and the early 2010s. MJ stans ripped Pippen like white on rice--Kobe stans did not do the same with Gasol.

Here is another thread from Mamba4Life which implicitly puts Wade in the same class as Pippen, Davis, and Irving. That generally has to be considered a positive connotation, no? http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...ar-like-Pippen

[LostCause]

You are projecting again.

Disingenuous--I did not dispute that it had an anti-Wade tenor in the title. What I said in plain English:

The other thread got traction--but only because Pippen was involved. The responses are the usual MJ stans saying how much Pippen sucks like they do in every Pippen thread. Where are the LeBron guys dissing Wade?

So a guy posts an anti-Wade thread and it is filled with MJ stans dissing Pippen

If you acknowledge the thread title, yet want to claim the responses in it were people "dissing Pippen" and not actually responding to the thread title, then yes you're being disingenuous. Thread asked what run was Pippen worse than Wade in. Obviously, people will reference runs they think Pippen was bad in. That's responding to a thread. If you consider that "dissing" Pippen, then by extension the thread title is dissing Wade, which you claimed Bron stans don't do (I noticed you dropped the point about the OP being a Bron stan. Good. That was similarly ridiculous of you)

Do you understand this or will you keep deflecting?


The second thread went nowhere. So your example is a thread where anti-Wade bait was served...and no one bought.

Cool, so did a Bron stan make an anti-wade thread or not? Your claim wasn't which threads garner the most responses, was it? Your claim was whether or not it happens. There's easily tons more threads disparaging Wade that I'm sure you're aware of but I just recalled those from last week. Not going digging for obvious shit we both know is there


As a comparison, the Pippen/Wade thread was chock full of fans of one retired player ripping Pippen. That's the tell: it is always MJ stans (basically the same guys) in every Pippen thread.

That's not even true though. That thread had people responding to the question presented in OP, obviously it won't present Pippen in the best light because that wasn't what was asked. Not sure what's hard to understand about that

Additionally, there were only 2 posts that actually even addressed the thread regarding Pippen. Most of it was you arguing about how good Wade was or wasn't. Again, you had the most posts in the thread.

[97 bulls]

If Pippen was so good, how come his prime stats = 13-14' Wade stats? (21/6/5... 21 PER)

Is that why people complain about 13-14' Wade? It's because he was reduced to prime Pippen?

How much value do you give to the defensive side of the ball?

[LostCause]

Samuari, guy, 3ball, you, Soundwave, LAL, etc. are in every Pippen thread.

Obviously a lie but go off


Here is another thread from Mamba4Life which implicitly puts Wade in the same class as Pippen, Davis, and Irving. That generally has to be considered a positive connotation, no? http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...ar-like-Pippen

Link doesn't open for some reason

[Roundball_Rock]

If you acknowledge the thread title, yet want to claim the responses in it were people "dissing Pippen" and not actually responding to the thread title, then yes you're being disingenuous

Terrible logic. Your claim is that was an example of LeBron stans diminishing Wade when the diminishing in that thread is all from MJ stans.


Thread asked what run was Pippen worse than Wade in. Obviously, people will reference runs they think Pippen was bad in. That's responding to a thread

You can't be this naive. These aren't random people who happen to show up in all these Pippen threads: they tend to be fans of one retired player. Guess who?


(I noticed you dropped the point about the OP being a Bron stan. Good. That was similarly ridiculous of you)

Um, I kind of, you know, didn't post here for a couple years...I don't know who these new posters are or are not fans of. I do know the MJ stans who pop up in every Pippen thread because they do it reflexively. No change from 2009 to 2014 or 2020.


Cool, so did a Bron stan make an anti-wade thread or not?

Changing goal posts, and in a dumb manner at that. One (alleged) Bron stan isn't the same as large scale animosity from an entire group. I am not saying it does not exist from LeBron stans towards Wade. What I am saying is during my time here I have not seen it or elsewhere. With Pippen, you go into these threads and it sticks out like sore thumb who the Pippen detractors are fans of. Moreover, Pippen stans are out there producing anti-Pippen memes, etc. Where are the anti-Wade memes (usually with their typical mendacity)?


There's easily tons more threads disparaging Wade that I'm sure you're aware of

I am not aware of many threads in recent years since, you know, I wasn't posting here. When I previously was active, no there were not those threads. Nor did Kobe stans go after Gasol. If anything, they overrated him (as usually happens of fans of the same team).

[Roundball_Rock]

How much value do you give to the defensive side of the ball?

97, can you believe this guy is trying to act like MJ stans don't go after Pippen like zealots? We have seen it time and again but we have this guy acting like MJ stans are these neutral lambs.

[trada7029]

How much value do you give to the defensive side of the ball?

The best defense is a good offense

So how much value is there to drastically underachieving your regular season ORtg, thus not making the defense work and giving them more energy for offense?.. why couldn't the heat wear out the Spurs the same way they were getting worn out?

Ultimately, lebron's passive jumper and ball dominance doesn't shift defenses/wear down teams like the ball-movement he faces on the championship level, so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off.. it looks like the Heat are magically playing worse defense than say, the #22 defense Mavs (who took Spurs 7) but it's really just the crap lebron-ball being solved and losing the attrition battle (not putting the Spurs on their heels... aka Spurs rolling their eyes while lebron dribbles, just waiting to get the ball back and shove it down his throat again, rinse repeat)

[Docs Orders]

Samuari, guy, 3ball, you, Soundwave, LAL, etc. are in every Pippen thread.




https://i.postimg.cc/pXDPXHSL/3xf1j9.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[LostCause]

Terrible logic. Your claim is that was an example of LeBron stans diminishing Wade when the diminishing in that thread is all from MJ stans.

At this point you're just being obtuse. The thread title itself was disparaging Wade, and the supporting posts regarding the OP reinforced it. Like I said, if you found the posts there "dissing" Pippen then you can't dispute Wade was being dissed as well. If you still want to be in denial about this, oh well


You can't be this naive. These aren't random people who happen to show up in all these Pippen threads: they tend to be fans of one retired player. Guess who?

What's the relevance of this if they're responding to the thread topic? Were their responses off-topic? If their responses are about the topic of the thread, it doesn't matter if they're random or not

Thats no different than if a thread asking about Jordans worst Finals was made and you posted in it citing 96 and his efficiency that series, having folks say you're just dissing Jordan because you've done so before. That's just responding to the thread. Now going beyond that and saying Jordan is overrated/sucks/terrible leader, would suck in this era etc would be dissing, because that's NOT relevant to the thread. I don't recall that happening in the linked thread though

Get it or no?


Changing goal posts, and in a dumb manner at that. One (alleged) Bron stan isn't the same as large scale animosity from an entire group. I am not saying it does not exist from LeBron stans towards Wade. What I am saying is during my time here I have not seen it or elsewhere. With Pippen, you go into these threads and it sticks out like sore thumb who the Pippen detractors are fans of. Moreover, Pippen stans are out there producing anti-Pippen memes, etc. Where are the anti-Wade memes (usually with their typical mendacity)?

Nothing was changed. I only responded to the original statement I quoted. I don't much care for the politics of ISH or whatever it is you've apparently spent years being involved in and has clearly jaded your views. All I'm saying is that it's certainly not true that Bron stans don't diss Wade. I haven't been here as long as you, obviously, but I'm sure anyone who's been around the last couple years can attest to it as well

Of course all you'll see over the next few weeks will be Jordan/Pippen threads, to be expected given circumstances


97, can you believe this guy is trying to act like MJ stans don't go after Pippen like zealots? We have seen it time and again but we have this guy acting like MJ stans are these neutral lambs.

If you're referring to me, well...

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Strawman-Fallacy

[Roundball_Rock]

The thread title itself was disparaging Wade, and the supporting posts regarding the OP reinforced it. Like I said, if you found the posts there "dissing" Pippen then you can't dispute Wade was being dissed as wel

:lol One post with an anti-Wade tone doesn't prove your original point about LeBron stans marching to rip Wade. If you can't find such evidence, that's okay. It happens.


What's the relevance of this if they're responding to the thread topic?

Motive, especially given the consistency in what they say to diminish Pippen. These aren't people running the gamut.

Motive is why MJ stans do it but you don't see the comparably large Kobe and LeBron fan bases doing the same. Those fan bases don't have the insecurity MJ stans do.


Thats no different than if a thread asking about Jordans worst Finals was made and you posted in it citing 96 and his efficiency that series, having folks say you're just dissing Jordan because you've done so before

Yes, on an individual level that would be similar to what I am talking about MJ stans. The problem? One person does not make a trend. There are plenty of pro-MJ Pippen fans here like 97, Smoke, Kshutts, and so on.


All I'm saying is that it's certainly not true that Bron stans don't diss Wade

I'll keep an eye out for it. All I can say is when I have posted here that didn't happen, nor has it happened elsewhere I have been.

What I can testify to from personal experience is Kobe stans would hype and overrate his teammates. I went at it with Kobe stans a lot over Amare vs. Gasol and even Bynum vs. Amare. They would say Bynum was better than Amare and that Gasol was light years better than Amare.

The amusing thing is, as I was clashing with Kobe stans on another subject people of your ilk were calling me a closet Kobe stan (because to MJ people, a Pippen fan cannot exist). Now I supposedly am I closet LeBron stan.


Of course all you'll see over the next few weeks will be Jordan/Pippen threads, to be expected given circumstances

It's always been like that. I frankly was shocked to see the MJ stan hostility to Pippen when I joined here. MJ, Kobe, LeBron have always been by far the dominant topics. Kobe has faded, probably due to his death (so he won't generate the same controversy as before). Pippen was in that second tier of topics. There was a MJ stan who would always lament how Pippen got so much discussion when he was not that great.

[97 bulls]

97, can you believe this guy is trying to act like MJ stans don't go after Pippen like zealots? We have seen it time and again but we have this guy acting like MJ stans are these neutral lambs.

Lol. Yes I can. These dudes are borderline trolls.

[97 bulls]

The best defense is a good offense
The same can be said the other way as well.


So how much value is there to drastically underachieving your regular season ORtg, thus not making the defense work and giving them more energy for offense?.. why couldn't the heat wear out the Spurs the same way they were getting worn out?

Ultimately, lebron's passive jumper and ball dominance doesn't shift defenses/wear down teams like the ball-movement he faces on the championship level, so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off.. it looks like the Heat are magically playing worse defense than say, the #22 defense Mavs (who took Spurs 7) but it's really just the crap lebron-ball being solved and losing the attrition battle (not putting the Spurs on their heels... aka Spurs rolling their eyes while lebron dribbles, just waiting to get the ball back and shove it down his throat again, rinse repeat)
I was actually referring to your Pippen/Wade stat comparison. Pippen made up for his "bad offense" by being the best defender on the court. That's why he led the playoffs in Defensive rating twice. In 91 and 96.

[97 bulls]

I'm not sure if this video has ever been shared in this forum, but I'd like to get some comments on it. This is what made Pippen great. His ability to dominate on defense like a great defensive center. Look at how he covers 4 guys. Look at how much ground he makes up.

Theres stats. And then there's impact. Which is more important?

https://youtu.be/eOoWZNp0AlA

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm not sure if this video has ever been shared in this forum, but I'd like to get some comments on it. This is what made Pippen great. His ability to dominate on defense like a great defensive center. Look at how he covers 4 guys. Look at how much ground he makes up.

Theres stats. And then there's impact. Which is more important?

https://youtu.be/eOoWZNp0AlA

The problem is whenever there is a positive post about Pippen the usual suspects flood in with the same shtick.

Notice not one of the MJ stans on ISH addressed the data in the OP....

[Axe]

The problem is whenever there is a positive post about Pippen the usual suspects flood in with the same shtick.

Notice not one of the MJ stans on ISH addressed the data in the OP....
Yikes.

[97 bulls]

The problem is whenever there is a positive post about Pippen the usual suspects flood in with the same shtick.

Notice not one of the MJ stans on ISH addressed the data in the OP....

I came across some info yesterday. In the history of the NBA (or at least when the video was made. Only two players in NBA history have ever had 6 Blocks and 5 steals in the same game (Or it could be vice versa) Hakeem Olajuwan and Scottie Pippen in game 1 of the ECF vs the Pistons in 91.

I'd be willing to bet that no other wing player has an many signature defensive games, or clutch defensive plays as Scotte Pippen.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yikes.

They (meaning MJ nation, not just here but on social media, etc.) spent the entire week saying Pippen was not an elite player and how every 90s star was (always) better. Here is data showing he was, including better than some of the guys they gas because they played against, not with, MJ and they have no response

[Roundball_Rock]

I came across some info yesterday. In the history of the NBA (or at least when the video was made. Only two players in NBA history have ever had 6 Blocks and 5 steals in the same game (Or it could be vice versa) Hakeem Olajuwan and Scottie Pippen in game 1 of the ECF vs the Pistons in 91.

I'd be willing to bet that no other wing player has an many signature defensive games, or clutch defensive plays as Scotte Pippen.

There is a great video on YouTube about it called "Scottie Pippen Ultimate Defender."

[97 bulls]

For all intents and purposes, these bozos focus on Pippens 96 Finals stats and his 98 Finals stats. Totally dismissive of the fact that he led the playoffs in defensive rating in 96. And was the front-runner for Finals MVP in 98.

These clowns want to talk about stats. I want to talk about impact.

[97 bulls]

There is a great video on YouTube about it called "Scottie Pippen Ultimate Defender."

I've seen them all. I've always maintained that Pip was just as dominant on defense as Jordan was on offense. That's what made the Bulls the greatest ever.

[trada7029]

I've seen them all. I've always maintained that Pip was just as dominant on defense as Jordan was on offense. That's what made the Bulls the greatest ever.
Zero evidence to back up the bolded

But it sure sounds good when there's no actual facts or substance to argue against the bulls being a 1-man team

Otoh, all the actual stats say otherwise, along with the facts and statements made by players/coaches at the time - all of this says the bulls were a 1-man team

[Roundball_Rock]

For all intents and purposes, these bozos focus on Pippens 96 Finals stats and his 98 Finals stats. Totally dismissive of the fact that he led the playoffs in defensive rating in 96. And was the front-runner for Finals MVP in 98.

These clowns want to talk about stats. I want to talk about impact.

True. Yeah the 98' talk separates the kids from those who watched back then. Pippen was dominant until he got hurt late in the series, but since it was defensively these idiots don't get it.

Pippen did have a bad finals in 96' but he played in six finals and had one bad one. Everyone will have a bad one in that large a sample, especially if playing hurt like he did. The same people who rip Pippen for the 96' finals never mention MJ's struggles, especially after Payton shut him down.

[Roundball_Rock]

But it sure sounds good when there's no actual facts or substance to argue against the bulls being a 1-man team

Otoh, all the actual stats say otherwise, along with the facts and statements made by players/coaches at the time - all of this says the bulls were a 1-man team

They are delusional.

[97 bulls]

Zero evidence to back up the bolded

But it sure sounds good when there's no actual facts or substance to argue against the bulls being a 1-man team

Otoh, all the actual stats say otherwise, along with the facts and statements made by players/coaches at the time - all of this says the bulls were a 1-man team
Pippen led the Playoff in defensive rating in 91 and 98. Theres a stat for you.

You'd probably find stats saying that in the late 80s. And then by reporters that were notoriously known as Jordan zealots. How about this. Show me a video of Jordan doing what Pippen did in the video I posted. Please.

[97 bulls]

True. Yeah the 98' talk separates the kids from those who watched back then. Pippen was dominant until he got hurt late in the series, but since it was defensively these idiots don't get it.

Pippen did have a bad finals in 96' but he played in six finals and had one bad one. Everyone will have a bad one in that large a sample, especially if playing hurt like he did. The same people who rip Pippen for the 96' finals never mention MJ's struggles, especially after Payton shut him down.

True.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen led the Playoff in defensive rating in 91 and 98. Theres a stat for you.

You'd probably find stats saying that in the late 80s. And then by reporters that were notoriously known as Jordan zealots. How about this. Show me a video of Jordan doing what Pippen did in the video I posted. Please.

The people who talk stats usually only mean scoring. There is more to basketball than scoring. If all you talk about is scoring you don't understand the value a player like Pippen brings.

In the OP I used advanced stats to allow us to compare across positions. They were career peaks, not yearly, but I'll do a yearly table later.

I'm going to post it again because MJ stans have so taken this thread off the rails:

Pippen: VORP 3rd, PER 4th, Box plus/minus 3rd, Win Shares 5th
Ewing: VORP 8th, PER 6th, Box plus/minus 10th, Win Shares 6th
Drexler: VORP 4th, PER 4th, Box plus/minus 4th, Win Shares 5th
Payton: VORP 9th, PER 8th, Box plus/minus 4th, Win Shares 3rd
Barkley: VORP 4th, PER 2nd, Box plus/minus 2nd, Win Shares 2nd
Malone: VORP 1st, PER 1st, Box plus/minus 2nd, Win Shares 1st
Miller: VORP 8th, PER 16th, Box plus/minus 8th, Win Shares 6th
Wilkins: VORP 5th, PER 5th, Box plus/minus 7th, Win Shares 5th
Johnson: VORP 9th, PER 6th, Box plus/minus 8th, Win Shares 8th
Richmond: VORP 11th, PER 13th, Box plus/minus 19th, Win Shares 17th
Price: VORP 9th, PER 8th, Box plus/minus 6th, Win Shares 9th

[Axe]

If you're a true bulls fan, you shouldn't dismiss pippen for also being part of the great bulls championship teams. Tbh, my fave franchise in the league would be nothing without him, jordan and phil. In pip's case tho, he didn't need to be a statpadder in order to be great when jordan was around; he's relegated to a secondary role but he does a very good job at it. And there are big reasons why he's also co-captain in this dynasty.

[97 bulls]

If you're a true bulls fan, you shouldn't dismiss pippen for also being part of the great bulls championship teams. Tbh, my fave franchise in the league would be nothing without him, jordan and phil. In pip's case tho, he didn't need to be a statpadder in order to be great when jordan was around. And there are big reasons why he's also co-captain in this dynasty.
Exactly

[Roundball_Rock]

If you're a true bulls fan, you shouldn't dismiss pippen for also being part of the great bulls championship teams. Tbh, my fave franchise in the league would be nothing without him, jordan and phil. In pip's case tho, he didn't need to be a statpadder in order to be great when jordan was around; he's relegated to a secondary role but he does a very good job at it. And there are big reasons why he's also co-captain in this dynasty.

:applause:

[trada7029]

.
All the evidence, stats and facts show that the 1st three-peat Bulls were a 1-man team


1) Everyone used to say the 1st three-peat Bulls were a 1-man team - it was standard, common knowledge:



- During the 1991 regular season, Reggie Miller said: "the Bulls are nothing without Michael Jordan" (quote and video here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BcoVUSypeS4&t=04m18s))...

- During the 1993 Finals, Isiah told Bob Costas on national TV that the Bulls were a 1-man team???.. This was after Magic said his peak Lakers would beat the bulls because if you removed himself and MJ, the Lakers' cast would "demolish" the Bulls.. See the 2-minute exchange between Magic/Costas/Isiah here[/B] (]Title teams with lowest scoring supporting casts for the overall playoffs

Post-1954 (Shot Clock Era)


10. 1994 Rockets - 68.3 PPG
9. 2006 Heat - 67.8 PPG
8. 1993 Bulls - 67.3 PPG
7. 2012 Heat - 67.0 PPG
6. 1996 Bulls - 66.7 PPG
5. 1992 Bulls - 65.9 PPG
4. 2004 Pistons - 65.6 PPG
3. 1999 Spurs - 65.2 PPG
2. 1997 Bulls - 61.5 PPG
1. 1998 Bulls - 60.8 PPG


And the Bulls only had the #7 defense during the 1st three-peat - every ECF and Finals opponent had a better defense during the 1st three-peat except the Suns' #9 defense


3) Everyone in history had teammates lead various series in scoring... Except MJ, who led his team in every series of his career, and did so by an average margin of 15.4 ppg above his 2nd option - that's the DEFINITION of a "1-man team" scoring load... Not only did MJ lead his team in every series, but he led BOTH TEAMS for every series of his career...

And only MJ scored 10-20 more than his 2nd option for every Finals (definition of carry-job and a "1-man team" scoring load), while Lebron, Magic and others need equal-scoring and usage sidekicks to close for them.



4) MJ carried a "1-man team" scoring load (goat scoring load), while getting equal assists to Pippen and more dpoy votes..

Infact, MJ led the Bulls in APG for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, while also assisting on the most Bulls FG's for both 3-peats (led Pippen in assist% for both 91-93' and 96-98' playoffs[/SIZE][/I]



5) The only guys to win a title as the league scoring champ are Kareem and Shaq in their peak seasons of 71' and 00'... And also MJ for all 6 of his rings... So Kareem/Shaq's peak burden was MJ's standard burden to win a ring.



6) Only MJ had to completely carry his team in the clutch.. He never had a teammate that commanded a double or took consistently clutch shots - Pippen ranked last in "clutch" scoring, behind guys like shandon anderson...

[Phoenix]

https://i.postimg.cc/pXDPXHSL/3xf1j9.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

This post is hilarious for two reasons. One, until now I havent even posted in this thread and yet here you are with this bullshit meme. Rent free, actually it's like you're paying me to live there you creepy little c*nt.

2nd, Scottie Pippen is probably my 2nd favorite player( or third after Wade) and I'm already on record as saying he IMO peaked as a top 5 player after Hakeem/Shaq/Admiral when Jordan left the first time. I was well tuned into the 94 season you morons keep talking about with the 55 win schtick. It's a bullet talking point for you, but I suspect you were swimming in your dads balls when it was actually happening. You won't find anything negative about him, anywhere, in my posts and I challenge you to find evidence otherwise or STFU. I grew up on the Bulls and while I'm a Jordan fan, I'm also a Pip guy and not nearly as obsessed with 'defending' MJ as you perceive. I know that Scottie was the kind of player who could have single digit points but still have his blueprint all over the game. I *know* how good Scottie was, and this cesspit of a forum disgusts me in the way Pip is only used as a lightning rod between Jordan and Lebron stans.

If you're TLDR retarded the summary of that is I'm a Pip guy since the very start of the Bulls run, you're a weird little shitstain obsessed with dropping a meme of me that doesnt apply, and this board is shit. Carry on.

[Roundball_Rock]

I *know* how good Scottie was, and this cesspit of a forum disgusts me in the way Pip is only used as a lightning rod between Jordan and Lebron stans.

Why do people keep saying this? It is funny because several years ago supposedly he was only a tool between MJ and Kobe stans. Now it is LeBron. Does it not occur to people he had/has his own fan base?

[trada7029]

Why do people keep saying this? It is funny because several years ago supposedly he was only a tool between MJ and Kobe stans. Now it is LeBron. Does it not occur to people he had/has his own fan base?
He didn't have his own fan base

He wasn't on the level of Ewing/Robininson/Malone/Barkley

Everyone is essentially lying about him in hindsight - look how everyone says that he guarded Magic, when it was MJ that mostly guarded him.. you will ignore this fact but it's the facts and you're statements are lies

Pippen sucked and everyone knew that at the time.. they're simply being nice to Pippen nowadays... Again, MJ mostly guarded Magic, not Pippen.. but keep lying about it like everyone is - I know you will

[Turbo Slayer]

He didn't have his own fan base

He wasn't on the level of Ewing/Robininson/Malone/Barkley

Everyone is essentially lying about him in hindsight

He sucked and the stats show that clearly How lame that you continue to hate on LeBron and reduce Pippen after all of the bans you received in the past?

Someone ban this guy. :facepalm

This guy is a troll. Theres no use in arguing with this guy if he cant handle other peoples opinions...

[Phoenix]

Why do people keep saying this? It is funny because several years ago supposedly he was only a tool between MJ and Kobe stans. Now it is LeBron. Does it not occur to people he had/has his own fan base?

The point is that he seems to be used as a lightning rod between MJ Stans and whoever the trending player comparison is at the time. Of course he has his own fanbase, but I don't see much of that on this site with a few exceptions( like yourself). By your own admission you haven't posted much here until recently, so you may not be aware of all the Pippen threads that have cropped up over the years that have little to do with Pippen himself. This is my second account. I've posted on this board since 2010, and lurked a few years prior. Trust me, I've seen all the same nonsense you have.

You realise, however, that this comment was intended to be in support of the idea that Pippen deserves better being pulled between the fanbases, yeah?

[trada7029]

How lame that you continue to hate on LeBron and reduce Pippen after all of the bans you received in the past?

Someone ban this guy. :facepalm

This guy is a troll. Theres no use in arguing with this guy if he cant handle other peoples opinions...

Why does everyone lie and say that Pippen guarded Magic, when it was MJ that mostly guarded Magic?

Why do people tell this lie?... Seriously, why?

Why are people lying about Pippen like this after the fact, when AT THE TIME everyone said he sucked?

When did he ever hit an important shot? Why did MJ have to do everything in the clutch and all game? Why did he have to carry the bulls while Pippen was aids?

[Turbo Slayer]

Why does everyone lie and say that Pippen guarded Magic, when it was MJ that mostly guarded Magic?

Why do people tell this lie?... Seriously, why?

Why are people lying about Pippen like this after the fact, when AT THE TIME everyone said he sucked?

When did he ever hit an important shot? Why did MJ have to do everything in the clutch and all game? Why did he have to carry the bulls while Pippen was aids?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9vFHYVXtRk&feature=emb_title

Deal with it.

[trada7029]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9vFHYVXtRk&feature=emb_title

Deal with it.

And yet every ECF and Finals opponent had more defensive help (higher ranked defense) than the Bulls during the 1st three-peat.

So once again, FAKE NEWS

Pippen is fake news... Mason was better at holding guys down... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LK08kxJDFwY

[LostCause]

You realise, however, that this comment was intended to be in support of the idea that Pippen deserves better being pulled between the fanbases, yeah?

That guy argues more with narratives from 8 years ago than things you actually say. Overly paranoid. Doesn’t really make for good discussion

[LostCause]

Pippen is fake news... Mason was better at holding guys down... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LK08kxJDFwY

:biggums: What lol

[Roundball_Rock]

He didn't have his own fan base

So how is there a Pippen jersey in my closet that I have had for 25 years? He had no fans but his jerseys were being sold in the Philadelphia area? :lol

Pippen was #3 in endorsements at one point. Yeah, #3 isn't close to the ultimate marketing machine but it shows he was popular himself.


The point is that he seems to be used as a lightning rod between MJ Stans and whoever the trending player comparison is at the time. Of course he has his own fanbase, but I don't see much of that on this site with a few exceptions( like yourself)

Understood.


y your own admission you haven't posted much here until recently, so you may not be aware of all the Pippen threads that have cropped up over the years that have little to do with Pippen himself. This is my second account. I've posted on this board since 2010, and lurked a few years prior. Trust me, I've seen all the same nonsense you have.

You realise, however, that this comment was intended to be in support of the idea that Pippen deserves better being pulled between the fanbases, yeah?

Yeah, I just keep being called a closet LeBron stan after being called a closet Kobe stan because people can't wrap themselves around Pippen having a fan base of his own.

The reason Pippen comes up is MJ stans keep ripping other legends on the basis of team results so those fans respond by talking about how good MJ's team was. Pippen is obviously the centerpiece of that argument. Then MJ stans, given their reliance on team results, have to tear down their team and Pippen.

You don't see LeBron stans doing the same thing with Wade, Kobe stans with Gasol, etc. It is only insecure MJ stans. I just discussed Kareem and Magic in the Kareem/LeBron thread. I am pro-Kareem but I didn't need to tear Magic down to build Kareem up.


Why does everyone lie and say that Pippen guarded Magic, when it was MJ that mostly guarded Magic?

Because of when he did it. "Your defense on Magic changed the fortunes of the series"--Phil Jackson. Not an exact quote but you can look up Pippen's jersey retirement video and hear what Jackson said yourself. I have the gist right.

[trada7029]

So how is there a Pippen jersey in my closet that I have had for 25 years? He had no fans but his jerseys were being sold in the Philadelphia area? :lol

Pippen was #3 in endorsements at one point. Yeah, #3 isn't close to the ultimate marketing machine but it shows he was popular himself.



Understood.



Yeah, I just keep being called a closet LeBron stan after being called a closet Kobe stan because people can't wrap themselves around Pippen having a fan base of his own.

The reason Pippen comes up is MJ stans keep ripping other legends on the basis of team results so those fans respond by talking about how good MJ's team was. Pippen is obviously the centerpiece of that argument. Then MJ stans, given their reliance on team results, have to tear down their team and Pippen.

You don't see LeBron stans doing the same thing with Wade, Kobe stans with Gasol, etc. It is only insecure MJ stans. I just discussed Kareem and Magic in the Kareem/LeBron thread. I am pro-Kareem but I didn't need to tear Magic down to build Kareem up.



Because of when he did it. "Your defense on Magic changed the fortunes of the series"--Phil Jackson. Not an exact quote but you can look up Pippen's jersey retirement video and hear what Jackson said yourself. I have the gist right.

Magic is normally guarded by forwards, but MJ stepped up because everyone knew Pippen couldn't handle stepping on the court in his first Finals with that matchup from the outset.

So MJ did Pippen a favor by guarding Magic most of the time and letting Pippen get away with the lower-pressure spot-duty.. Phil is just being nice like everyone else when talking about Pippen.. because what's he supposed to say?.. it's standard political talk - bones thrown to the media because the media can't handle the reality that I laid out - aka MJ was doing Pippen a favor and giving Pippen a break compared to normal forward duties.

And in case you haven't noticed - we statistically proved that only MJ's goat scoring could've won with those Bulls... i.e. we know that MJ's teammates played to capacity next to MJ**, so that proves the goat volume was needed.. and only MJ could've provided the volume because only MJ had elite efficiency at high volume (the goat high volume/high efficiency scorer, aka goat scorer)

** Pippen's high was 22.0 and 5.6 apg in 94', but 21.0 and 7.0 alongside MJ.. other teammates were similarly at or near their highs (capacity) alongside mj

Btw, pip didn't have any endorsements until mj won him 3 rings... Only then was Pippen viewed as a solid player, aka got the benefit of the doubt

[Roundball_Rock]

The Lakers' leading scorer was Worthy, a HOFer who played Pippen's position. You are acting like Pippen was guarding a scrub when he wasn't on Magic.

[ImKobe]

Why does everyone lie and say that Pippen guarded Magic, when it was MJ that mostly guarded Magic?

Why do people tell this lie?... Seriously, why?

Why are people lying about Pippen like this after the fact, when AT THE TIME everyone said he sucked?

When did he ever hit an important shot? Why did MJ have to do everything in the clutch and all game? Why did he have to carry the bulls while Pippen was aids?

They can't argue this shit because they know Pippen was a 2nd banana AT BEST.

Great. They won 55 games in 1994 when he had two all-star teammates, but the team was still worse in SRS and way worse on offense and was struggling to stay above .500 as soon as Horace left. Pippen did guard Magic a lot from games 2-5 but it was more about the Bulls full court pressing the Lakers all game and forcing the ball out of Magic's hands than anything else, Jordan haters will obviously use that against him but Jordan was money every single game while leading the team in everything but rebounds for that series while outscoring Pippen by over 10 points a game with a 10+ higher FG%.

[Roundball_Rock]

They won 55 games in 1994 when he had two all-star teammates, but the team was still worse in SRS and way worse on offense and was struggling to stay above .500 as soon as Horace left.

This BS again. It never ends and this is why "1-9" comes up when MJ was a bald headed Dominique Wilkins. It is interesting, the Bulls declined more sans Grant than sans the "GOAT".

Regarding the season, the Bulls had injuries and trouble settling on roles (due to issues replacing MJ and Grant). They were 23-25 at the break. Thereafter, and before MJ, they went 11-6 (53 win pace) as they got healthier and settled on their lineups, rotations, etc. They started to win games by double digits. I wonder what their SRS was after 65 games? I bet comparable to a 50 win team.

At any rate, let's accept for a moment the Bulls sucked. They were still 4-5 games behind Indiana. If the Bulls sucked and at their absolute weakest were still challenging EC perennial contender Indiana, what does that say about the 90's comp? I don't expect an answer...


When did he ever hit an important shot?

This is funny since his most iconic playoff moment during this title runs was the dagger that sealed a trip to the NBA finals (Game 6 against New York). 5:00 mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llgnf6gY_gM

"Again Scottie Pippen has hit the big shot!"--Marv Albert

Again? I thought he never did that? It was all MJ, like when MJ showed up and shot 17% with the Bulls down 0-2 in the NY series. Where was Pippen? Oh, shooting 83% (so combined with MJ they were at a 50% average!).

[trada7029]

This BS again. It never ends and this is why "1-9" comes up when MJ was a bald headed Dominique Wilkins. It is interesting, the Bulls declined more sans Grant than sans the "GOAT".

Regarding the season, the Bulls had injuries and trouble settling on roles (due to issues replacing MJ and Grant). They were 23-25 at the break. Thereafter, and before MJ, they went 11-6 (53 win pace) as they got healthier and settled on their lineups, rotations, etc. They started to win games by double digits. I wonder what their SRS was after 65 games? I bet comparable to a 50 win team.

At any rate, let's accept for a moment the Bulls sucked. They were still 4-5 games behind Indiana. If the Bulls sucked and at their absolute weakest were still challenging EC perennial contender Indiana, what does that say about the 90's comp? I don't expect an answer...



This is funny since his most iconic playoff moment during this title runs was the dagger that sealed a trip to the NBA finals (Game 6 against New York). 5:00 mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llgnf6gY_gM

"Again Scottie Pippen has hit the big shot!"--Marv Albert

Again? I thought he never did that? It was all MJ, like when MJ showed up and shot 17% with the Bulls down 0-2 in the NY series. Where was Pippen? Oh, shooting 83% (so combined with MJ they were at a 50% average!).

You make my point by showing Marv's amazement that Pippen hit a shot down the stretch of a tight playoff game (clutch time).. because he was a known goat choker with literally the worst clutch stats ever

And how did the 94' Bulls win with just 22 ppg from Pippen, while the 88' Bulls needed 35 from Jordan?... Obviously, the 94' Bulls had a vastly superior brand/teamwork and 3-pwat system, so they could win without Pippen producing like Jordan.

[Roundball_Rock]

You make my point by showing Marv's amazement that Pippen hit a shot down the stretch of a tight playoff game (clutch time).. because he was a known goat choker with literally the worst clutch stats ever

Do you watch basketball? A player makes a lay up and Marv gets excited.

[97 bulls]

Do you watch basketball? A player makes a lay up and Marv gets excited.

I honestly dont think he does. Marv Albert has always got excited every time someone hits a big shot.

[LostCause]

Man the Pippen hate in this thread is astounding

The OP showed his value. Jordan said it himself. There’s the Jordan trolling from Bron stans to undermine Jordan but saying Pippen sucked etc is just going too far in the other direction

There’s no productive discussion being had at this point

[trada7029]

Do you watch basketball? A player makes a lay up and Marv gets excited.

In addition to Pippen never hitting a clutch shot, how did how did the 94' Bulls win with just 22 ppg from Pippen, while the 88' Bulls needed 35 from Jordan?...

Obviously, the 94' Bulls had a vastly superior brand/teamwork and 3-pwat system, so they could win without Pippen producing like Jordan.. heck, MJ had the better sidelines - Oakley led the league in rebound and averaged 20/15 vs goat Celtics in playoffs.

Btw, here's Phil Jackson saying that the game plan was to let MJ do everything in the clutch:



"Don't leave Michael all alone here. It's not TIME yet."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=30m20s

[RogueBorg]

Otoh, all the actual stats say otherwise, along with the facts and statements made by players/coaches at the time - all of this says the bulls were a 1-man team

3ball, I understand you're a Jordan fan, so am I, but I don't get this 1-man did it all thing. Let's suppose MJ average's for a series 30-40 ppg and the Bulls are averaging 105 points scored per game....who's scoring the other 65-75 points per game?

If MJ is guarding the opposing SG, who's defending the other four positions on the floor?

C'mon man, no one does it ALL BY THEMSELVES.

[trada7029]

3ball, I understand you're a Jordan fan, so am I, but I don't get this 1-man did it all thing. Let's suppose MJ average's for a series 30-40 ppg and the Bulls are averaging 105 points scored per game....who's scoring the other 65-75 points per game?

If MJ is guarding the opposing SG, who's defending the other four positions on the floor?

C'mon man, no one does it ALL BY THEMSELVES.





You have no actual argument, whereas all the evidence, stats and facts show that the Bulls were the definition of a 1-man team


1) The Bulls' cast was the lowest scoring cast ever:



Title teams with lowest scoring supporting casts for the overall playoffs

Post-1954 (Shot Clock Era)


10. 1994 Rockets - 68.3 PPG
9. 2006 Heat - 67.8 PPG
8. 1993 Bulls - 67.3 PPG
7. 2012 Heat - 67.0 PPG
6. 1996 Bulls - 66.7 PPG
5. 1992 Bulls - 65.9 PPG
4. 2004 Pistons - 65.6 PPG
3. 1999 Spurs - 65.2 PPG
2. 1997 Bulls - 61.5 PPG
1. 1998 Bulls - 60.8 PPG


And the Bulls only had the #7 defense during the 1st three-peat - every ECF and Finals opponent had a better defense during the 1st three-peat except the Suns' #9 defense



2) Everyone said the 1st three-peat Bulls were a 1-man team - it was standard, common knowledge:



- During the 1991 regular season, Reggie Miller said: "the Bulls are nothing without Michael Jordan" (quote and video here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BcoVUSypeS4&t=04m18s))...

- During the 1993 Finals, Isiah told Bob Costas on national TV that the Bulls were a 1-man team.. This was after Magic said his peak Lakers would beat the bulls because the Lakers' cast would "demolish" the Bulls.. See the 2-minute exchange between Magic/Costas/Isiah here[/B] (][B)



3) Everyone in history had teammates lead various series in scoring... Except MJ, who led his team in every series of his career, and did so by an average margin of 15.4 ppg above his 2nd option - that's the DEFINITION of a "1-man team" scoring load... Not only did MJ lead his team in every series, but he led BOTH TEAMS for every series of his career...

And only MJ scored 10-20 more than his 2nd option for every Finals (definition of carry-job and a "1-man team" scoring load), while Lebron, Magic and others need equal-scoring and usage sidekicks to close for them.



4) MJ carried a "1-man team" scoring load (goat scoring load), while getting equal assists to Pippen and more dpoy votes..

Infact, MJ led the Bulls in APG for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, while also assisting on the most Bulls FG's for both 3-peats (led Pippen in assist% for both 91-93' and 96-98' playoffs



5) The only guys to win a title as the league scoring champ are Kareem and Shaq in their peak seasons of 71' and 00'... And also MJ for all 6 of his rings... So Kareem/Shaq's peak burden was MJ's standard burden to win a ring.



6) Only MJ had to completely carry his team in the clutch.. He never had a teammate that commanded a double or took consistently clutch shots - Pippen ranked last in "clutch" scoring, behind guys like shandon anderson

[Roundball_Rock]

Man the Pippen hate in this thread is astounding

The OP showed his value. Jordan said it himself. There’s the Jordan trolling from Bron stans to undermine Jordan but saying Pippen sucked etc is just going too far in the other direction

It is funny this keeps being connected to LeBron.


Obviously, the 94' Bulls had a vastly superior brand/teamwork and 3-pwat system

Yeah, Krause built a strong team over the years and hired the GOAT coach. 88' was the beginning of the championship build.


Btw, here's Phil Jackson saying that the game plan was to let MJ do everything in the clutch:

We just saw the opposite from Jackson in MJ's own doc. :lol


2) Everyone said the 1st three-peat Bulls were a 1-man team - it was standard, common knowledge:

That is why they were expected to miss the playoffs after he retired. Perceptions of the Bulls were proven wrong...


Pippen ranked last in "clutch" scoring, behind guys like shandon anderson

Link?

[trada7029]

It is funny this keeps being connected to LeBron.



Because he's the one that the media has erroneousy compared to Jordan

All this stuff just refutes it - that's why it gets connected to lebron - it proves he isn't on MJ's level, or anywhere near goat

Hope that helps





Yeah, Krause built a strong team over the years and hired the GOAT coach. 88' was the beginning of the championship build.




Yes, but the weak talent and beginning teamwork required 35/6/6/dpoy from Jordan, while the 94' Bulls only needed 22 from Pippen because they had 3-peat teamwork





We just saw the opposite from Jackson in MJ's own doc. :lol



Heat-of-the-moment, in-game comments > after-the-fact political talk in sit-down interview for documentary





That is why they were expected to miss the playoffs after he retired. Perceptions of the Bulls were proven wrong...



94' was when people realized how great the triangle was - people knew it certainly wasn't the talent, i.e. Grant at 2nd option or Pippen's 22 ppg at 1st option - it was the TEAMWORK that allowed winning with such weak talent, while the 88' Bulls needed more from MJ because the teamwork was in beginning stages.






Link to Pip's woat clutch stats?




http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?479314-Timely-scorers-win-titles

(each year is linked to NBA.com data)

[Roundball_Rock]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?479314-Timely-scorers-win-titles

(each year is linked to NBA.com data)

It only goes back to 97' but interesting. Fun with small sample sizes again. So Pippen had a poor # for the finals in that scenario (fourth quarter, within 5 points) but for the 97' playoffs he was 5th behind Malone and Barkley. Similar percentages, even though he wasn't a post player like them. Shawn Kemp shot 15% BTW in 97' in that scenario.

1998 Pippen 5th for the playoffs behind Stockton. His percentage is low at 39%, but MJ is at 44% and Stockton 33%. Payton at 39%, Hakeem 36%.

In 2000 Pippen leads Portland and is 4th, right behind Kobe.

Your data doesn't prove your case. It undermines it. The only thing it shows is MJ took basically every shot in these situations. So what? Zach Lavine does the same thing today and dominates the same stat.

[trada7029]

It only goes back to 97' but interesting. Fun with small sample sizes again. So Pippen had a poor # for the finals in that scenario (fourth quarter, within 5 points) but for the 97' playoffs he was 5th behind Malone and Barkley. Similar percentages, even though he wasn't a post player like them. Shawn Kemp shot 15% BTW in 97' in that scenario.

1998 Pippen 5th for the playoffs behind Stockton. His percentage is low at 39%, but MJ is at 44% and Stockton 33%. Payton at 39%, Hakeem 36%.

In 2000 Pippen leads Portland and is 4th, right behind Kobe.

Your data doesn't prove your case. It undermines it. The only thing it shows is MJ took basically every shot in these situations. So what? Zach Lavine does the same thing today and dominates the same stat.
You have to switch the clutch stats to ppg not total points if you're going to look at the whole playoffs

But don't let accuracy come in the way of your argument, my panicked lebron stan.. it never has before

Again, Pippen is the worst clutch player ever with the smallest clutch contribution ever... The definition of worst #2: he forced MJ to have the goat scoring load and still get equal assists and more dpoy votes - that's the definition of woat #2 option