Karl Malone supporting cast in the 1998 finals was horrible

[coastalmarker99]

Malone had a fine series in the 1998 finals . 25, 10.5, 3.8 in 40.5 mpg. 50.4% FG, 78.9% FT, 55.3% TS, 106 ORTG. Still a remarkable drop-off from the RS, but it's not like Jordan was a 60% TS player in the series either, and 33.3% USG is hard. The Jazz had Malone taking 19.8 FGA/g against their team's 71.8 right, so that wasn't awesome and Malone was no Jordan.

HOWEVER... this series was not about Malone.

JH: 10.7 ppg, 34.2 mpg, 41.1% FG, 33.3% 3P, 50.1% TS, 96 ORTG

For the second straight Finals series, he was completely incompetent.

JS: 9.7 ppg, 8.7 apg, 32.3 mpg, 49.0% FG, 22.2% 3P, 53.9% TS, 103 ORTG

Stockton had no functional value to the Jazz in that series. Yes, he was technically better than the team average, but WHOOOOOO was he not at all helping Malone. He didn't have it in him to play the minutes and he'd never been a step-it-up scorer. His scoring had always kind of come and gone with his 3pt shot. After that, Bryon Russell, Shandon Anderson and Howard Eisley were never going to make the difference.

Malone logged 31/11/7 on 57.9% FG in a 1-point loss in the deciding Game 6 and all anyone remembers is him getting blindsided by Jordan in the final 20 seconds of the game when he was receiving an entry pass on the left block. There was basically nothing he could have done about it, but that's what people remember. Not Russell getting crossed or the game flow, or his performance, just the turnover. Not that Stockton was 4/10 from the field and 1/4 from 3, or that Pippen only played 26 minutes and the Bulls still shot almost 51% from the floor, or that non-Jordan Bulls were 19/32 from the field (59.4% FG). They don't necessarily remember that Jordan put 45 on the Jazz that game, and had only 1 turnover against 35 shots. They remember the Steal, the Cross and the Jimmy.

Thought added, though. Chicago was DOWN 3 after the first quarter. Down 4 at the half.

Then the Jazz stank it up SUPER HARD in the 3rd quarter and only scored 17 points on 33% FG... but holy crap, Chicago only scored 16. Then they got outscored 26-20 in the fourth as Jordan went to work and scored 16 points. Rodman got all up in Malone's business in the second half and frustrated him after he exploded in the first half, but no one else was able to step up and get him some breathing room, either.

This is a fantastic example if Malone had an AS-caliber second scorer, the Jazz had a really good chance to push the series to Game 7 and maybe even win. In the absence of such a player, they basically didn't even have a real shot at the title, regardless of winning two games. It's a lot like the 90s equivalent of the Sixers taking one against the Lakers in 2001

[coastalmarker99]

This is the sort of reason why I don't hold Malone's lack of a RING against him. I try not to hold his struggles against Rodman against him too much, given that he was also in his mid-30s at the time, though it fits the pattern. The point being, there's very much truth to the notion that his lack of a ring is directly related to the quality of help he did or did not have.

It wasn't like the Bulls were the prime Bulls. Chicago had 3 guys over 35 in their top-7 and Pippen had missed half that season with an injury and wasn't close to his peak). Playing against the strong but aging defensive group of MJ/Scottie/Rodman (36 years old) surrounded by not so great players (Longley, Kukoc, Kerr) and a washed 35yo Harper, Utah supporting cast besides Malone managed the following numbers in the finals.

Stockton: 9-2-8 on 49% shooting, only hit 2 threes all series Hornacek: 11-3-3 on 41% shooting, only hit 3 threes all series Russell (added to the starting lineup to guard Jordan): 9-5-0 on 41% shooting Malone: 25-10-5 on 50% shooting Keefe: 3-3-0 on 43% shooting Foster: 1-2-0 on 27% shooting Ostertag: 2-2-0 on 42% shooting

And also in game 3 of the series the jazz would only score 54 points and Malone had 22 points to himself and in-game 5 Malone would go off for 39 points on 63 per cent only one player besides Malone scored 10 points in that game for the Jazz and that was Antoine Carr who made all five of his field-goal attempts. Malone almost scored half of his team's points in that game. The jazz only scored 83 points for the game and yet with Malone putting up an all-time great performance they only won by two and they would have lost in 5 if Antoine carr did not have the game of his life in that game 5.

[coastalmarker99]

An example of Malone supporting cast letting him down is that only one player besides Malone averaged over 10 points a game and that was jeff hornacek who averaged 10 points a game on 40 percent shooting.

Byron Russell at 6-21 led the team in threes for the 1998 Finals. John Stockton was 2-9 from three for the ENTIRE 1998 Finals. Combined. Jeff Hornacek was 3-9 from three for the ENTIRE 1998 Finals. Howard Eisley went 1-7 for the whole Finals. Chris Morris went 0-9.

The entire team was 13-60 combined. FOR THE ENTIRE SERIES. They shot 21.7% from three. Steve Kerr shot better from three than anyone on the Jazz in the 1998 Finals,

[StrongLurk]

Yes, the NBA 94-99 was at it's lowest talent point for the modern era. Lots of teams literally had just 1 star and a bunch of role players.

Also the Jazz's offensive schemes were terrible in the 98 finals. In the infamous game 6, they literally ran the same play over and over (get the ball to Malone on the block). I'm pretty sure they ran that play every time for the last 7-8 minutes of the 4th quarter. That's why Jordan was able to hedge over to Malone's blindspot, because ONCE AGAIN, the Jazz were telegraphing with zero effort that they were trying to get the ball to Malone on the block. It was obvious to anyone watching what they were doing so it was EASY for Jordan to just wait for it.

[coastalmarker99]

In the 1998 finals, the real choker was Stockton he averaged 9 points and 8 assists on 48 percent shooting they needed more from him and considering how close the games were if Stockton averages 13 or 14 points a game the Jazz likely win the series in 5 games. Every game of the 1998 finals was winnable for the Jazz besides game 3 . Malone showed up in that game 5 in 1998 and dropped 39 on 63 percent and he also played very well in game 6. The biggest problem for those Jazz teams was their centers if they had a player like a mark Eaton they would have come away with at least one ring out of those two finals.

[coastalmarker99]

Yes, the NBA 94-99 was at it's lowest talent point for the modern era. Lots of teams literally had just 1 star and a bunch of role players.

Yep, it was the expansion era, and as you have already pointed out, the late 1990s were a really bad time for talent. All the old stars were aging out, and all the young stars hadn't risen yet. The NBA had just jumped from only 23 teams in 1988 up to 29 teams by 1996, so talent was diluted as hell already and a lot of teams were straight trash. Then in 1998 you had MJ, Malone, Hakeem, Barkley, Drexler, Robinson, Stockton, Mourning, Ewing who had all gotten old and were aging off their prime, Kemp, Payton, Reggie had all taken a step back, Kobe, Garnett, and Duncan hadn't ascended yet, and Ewing, Mourning, and Penny Hardaway all got hurt that year. There just weren't many good teams.

Which is how a Utah team that had had the same stars for 15 years without once making the Finals finally got in there. That same "Malone plus Stockton plus a nice SG plus a couple big stiffs" core had lost in the playoffs to damn near every city in the Western Conference, but at 35-36 years old they supposedly became great all the sudden?

[coastalmarker99]

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;13976058]Yes, the NBA 94-99 was at it's lowest talent point for the modern era. Lots of teams literally had just 1 star and a bunch of role players.

Also, the Jazz's offensive schemes were terrible in the 98 finals. In the infamous game 6, they literally ran the same play over and over (get the ball to Malone on the block). I'm pretty sure they ran that play every time for the last 7-8 minutes of the 4th quarter. That's why Jordan was able to hedge over to Malone's blindspot because ONCE AGAIN, the Jazz were telegraphing with zero effort that they were trying to get the ball to Malone on the block. It was obvious to anyone watching what they were doing so it was EASY for Jordan to just wait for it.

Honestly, the Utah jazz with Stockton and Malone is one of the most overrated teams of all time

Malone stats would drop a little in the playoffs, he had less go-to moves than Barkley did or Hakeem. Yeah yeah his pick n roll was deadly with Stockton, but it's not enough


Not a coincidence they made it to 97 and 98 finals when:
Shawn Kemp got fatter in 97 and they became a worse team than 96 (Sonics used to be a legit threat to jazz)
Barkley in 97 wasn't the same 93 Barkley
Hakeem in 97 wasn't the same 94-95 Hakeem. That series they lost to jazz in 97...big deal, Horry said it the best, that rockets team had too many egos.

So they beat the young lakers team, great...big deal.



Jazz couldn't use the opportunity when Mike retired. In 94 one-man show Hakeem beat the Jazz, you know why? An elite big man surrounded with three-point shooters...sounds familiar? Next year they are losing to the same Rockets team that shot more threes than them.

Then Mike retires in 98 again, 99 Malone wins MVP in a shortened season..perfect opportunity and they blew it against Blazers letting a god damn JR Rider punk their so-called "all-time great team".

[SATAN]

Imagine if the Jazz had Pippen instead of Russel or Hornacek :lebronamazed:

[StrongLurk]

Yep, it was the expansion era, and as you have already pointed out, the late 1990s were a really bad time for talent. All the old stars were aging out, and all the young stars hadn't risen yet. The NBA had just jumped from only 23 teams in 1988 up to 29 teams by 1996, so talent was diluted as hell already and a lot of teams were straight trash. Then in 1998 you had MJ, Malone, Hakeem, Barkley, Drexler, Robinson, Stockton, Mourning, Ewing who had all gotten old and were aging off their prime, Kemp, Payton, Reggie had all taken a step back, Kobe, Garnett, and Duncan hadn't ascended yet, and Ewing, Mourning, and Penny Hardaway all got hurt that year. There just weren't many good teams.

Which is how a Utah team that had had the same stars for 15 years without once making the Finals finally got in there. That same "Malone plus Stockton plus a nice SG plus a couple big stiffs" core had lost in the playoffs to damn near every city in the Western Conference, but at 35-36 years old they supposedly became great all the sudden?

I've said that so many times. Also the fact the Pippen and Jordan won more games than they ever did in the regular season 96-98 even though they themselves were much better 91-93.

[coastalmarker99]

I've said that so many times. Also the fact the Pippen and Jordan won more games than they ever did in the regular season 96-98 even though they themselves were much better 91-93.

To be honest it was the like the early '70s with their expansion era the top teams of the early 70's up to 1973 3 teams almost won 70 games in 3 straight seasons the old lakers in 72 who had a past his prime Wilt and West won 69 games the 67 sixers were far better than them and they only won 68 games. The 71 bucks who had a past his prime oscar won 66 games. and the Celtics in 1973 won 68 games. 3 different teams in 3 straight seasons nearly won 70 games and that was because expansion had made the top teams weaker as the top talent was now going to the trash teams.

[FireDavidKahn]

Wait, so we are counting how poorly a players teammates play in the Finals vs. how "stacked" they seem throughout the season?

#LeHeldToDifferentStandards

:roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

refs were even worse tbh

[coastalmarker99]

refs were even worse tbh


Utah Jazz bigs were terrible, slow with no jump shot to save their life. The weakest link of that team. Dudes like postertag wouldn't make it to the league today, at best he'd be the DNP guy.

00s and 10s are a much greater point guard era than the 90s. Stockton would no way in hell be as elite as he was in the 90s. I don't know what would he do against faster, taller and more athletic point guards of today's era. A lot of today's elite point guards are about 6ft3 height. You don't even need elite defence at point guard position these days.

Utah Jazz was lucky their core of Stockton and Malone had great longevity, in the late 90s there was a transitional time where legends of the past weren't near the 92 dream team level anymore. And youngins were just starting their career. Malone is a POS as a human being but he took care of his body and got the opportunity to make some real noise in the late 90s. I don't see how that team would dominate todays era. No way.

[coastalmarker99]

refs were even worse tbh

If the shot at the end of the half in game 6 had been counted for the jazz and if Ron's shot is waved off I think the Jazz become the first team ever to pull off a 3 1 comeback in the finals and win the title in that game 7. Jordan would have been gassed Malone had finally figured out Rodman in games 5 and 6 Malone in game 5 and 6 had 70 points on 60% shooting from the field and also Pippen had hurt his back. It's strange to think that if two calls go differently in game 6 then we have a totally different viewpoint on Malone's and John's legacy and in general those late 90's Jazz teams.

[Jasper]

OP - I consider Malone the prototype PF of all time , built up body , great touch and rebounder.
In the finals the Bulls knew if they stopped the perimeter of Malone , Malone might implode ... he was criticized quite a bit prior to
the finals , and he delivered.
He tried to convince Utah to get a third option next to Stockton and himself , and the ownership said they were fine ...
(Of course they were raking it in , because they were sold out , pretty much the whole season)
So Malone left for the super team that was formed in LA and fell flat on it's face.

Malone was a hell of a player and it is proved in the history of the league with his records.

[Kblaze8855]

Stockton wasn’t anything close to a choker. Stockton and the jazz simply laid too much at the feet of Malone who wasn’t built to take over games on a regular basis vs great set defense. When his pull-up and fade-away were on he was near unguardable....but that’s true of most guys. Stockton spent too little of his career putting teams to bed like when he personally drug Malone to the finals for the first time:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/EdibleEmbarrassedDassierat-size_restricted.gif



And way too much threading needles to get guys baskets they didn’t deserve:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BlaringAdmiredFrog-size_restricted.gif

[Kblaze8855]

I would have liked to see Stockton take more of a second scorer role but at that age and after all that time it’s hard to expect him to flip a switch. Hornacek was there to be the other scorer not John. I did always love when he would just be forced to attack though....



https://youtu.be/7ADlvxFVt8k



He had it in him.

[tpols]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BlaringAdmiredFrog-size_restricted.gif

thats straight genius there. he thread that cross court through all 5 defenders.

and that gif was in slow motion. imagine how quick this dude was.

[Kblaze8855]

One of my favorite passes ever. But it isn’t the kinda thing to make highlight reels. Wasn’t even any kinda highlight just something I pulled from some clip 15 ish years ago making a Stockton video. He has so many “Jesus....” kinda plays that normal sports highlights would never include and it kinda annoys me.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Utah teams are overrated. Malone & Stockton didn't make the finals when Hakeem, Magic, Drexler, Barkley were around and in their primes. Only when those guys got old or retired and before Shaq and Duncan got going did they squeeze in a few finals. They were a very good team (made 5 conference finals) but get overrated because of the two finals.

Malone was better in the 98' finals but he deserves a lot more of the blame for the 97' finals loss.


Not a coincidence they made it to 97 and 98 finals when:
Shawn Kemp got fatter in 97 and they became a worse team than 96 (Sonics used to be a legit threat to jazz)
Barkley in 97 wasn't the same 93 Barkley
Hakeem in 97 wasn't the same 94-95 Hakeem. That series they lost to jazz in 97...big deal, Horry said it the best, that rockets team had too many egos.

Yup, and Drexler in 97' wasn't the same as 92' Drexler either.

[Axe]

Regardless if he had horrible supporting cast or not, it's going to be regarded as one of the most successful seasons in jazz history.

[Kblaze8855]

I’m not about to defend Karl Malone’s honor but I don’t know if it’s fair to say they didn’t make it while such and such were in their primes. Stockton was 36 in the 98 playoffs. He’s older than Hakeem, Barkley, or Drexler. Karl is about the same age as them. They weren’t in their primes either. Hard to hold it against them that they aged better or played a game less dependent on athletic ability to be effective. Malone being MVP late in his career doesn’t mean it was his peak.

They played great ball together and their chemistry was such that they were able to be near peak effectiveness despite aging.

That isn’t something to discredit to me.

[tpols]

john stockton doesnt seem to have relied on his athleticism as much as barkley, clyde or hakeem.

couldnt drexler only dribble with one hand?

[ArbitraryWater]

Yeah, old ass Utah only made it out the conference once all the other contenders declined

truly, a meme worthy era of basketball

and then with refs in the back pocket, 6 titles isnt all too crazy

[Akeem34TheDream]

98 Jazz reminds me of this Louis CK sketch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmIfVrvUCkQ

[Roundball_Rock]

I’m not about to defend Karl Malone’s honor but I don’t know if it’s fair to say they didn’t make it while such and such were in their primes. Stockton was 36 in the 98 playoffs. He’s older than Hakeem, Barkley, or Drexler. Karl is about the same age as them. They weren’t in their primes either. Hard to hold it against them that they aged better or played a game less dependent on athletic ability to be effective. Malone being MVP late in his career doesn’t mean it was his peak.

They played great ball together and their chemistry was such that they were able to be near peak effectiveness despite aging.

That isn’t something to discredit to me.

Fair point. Malone is the only player whose longevity rivals Kareem's (not the same caliber guys but in the sense of the length of time they played at an elite level and the glacial pace of decline). To rephrase, Malone and Stockton benefited from outlasting their rivals. As those guys fell off Malone kept chugging and Stockton also declined slower than his peers (think KJ, Price, Isiah, etc.).

Malone won his second MVP with Barkley*, Drexler all out the league by then and Hakeem a shell of himself.

*He started the season but was done after 10 or so games.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Jordan has the weakest rings of any all-time great by a huge margin

Even KD's rings came against the GOAT, so despite the Warriors having by far the most stacked team(just like the 90's Bulls), his rings mean more than any of Jordan's.

I don't think Jordan wins any rings in any other era but the 90's... talk about a lucky career

[97 bulls]

Credit needs to be given to the Bulls defense. Harper and Pippen hounded and dogged Stockton and it was hard for them to even run a play and get through progressions. I mean there was another team out there. Arguably the best defensive team ever.