Athletes in this generation are so far superior than in Jordan's era

[iamgine]

"Because the athletes that are in this generation are so far superior than what was in my generation. [When we were playing], Jordan was the best athlete that we had ever seen, [but] from an athletic standpoint, there are like 10 or 11 guys in the NBA right now with Jordan's athleticism. We didn't have that back then." - Isiah Thomas

[jstern]

Who are the ten Jordan equals in the perimeter. Lebron is one. Zion, but he's a rookie. Players have more freedom of movement, which makes the game faster, and it's a lot less physical, and it was A LOT harder to score as a perimeter player. That's what a difference in rules does.

There's also a shift when you get older, where you forget how good and athletic you were. When I was younger (the start of the Lebron era) the speed of NBA players didn't do much for me, (except for 18 year old Lebron) but when I got older, I noticed that I would get impressed with the speed of the NBA because I wasn't as fast and couldn't relate. (In the same light a lot of young fat people are super impressed because all they know is their situation.)

The one time I was truly impressed as a young person was during an all start type of game from the 80s that featured Isiah, and that game was soooooo fast. Sprinting back and forth for 48 minutes.

[Axe]

So that's why lbj couldn't win more than 3 titles last decade? I see..

[Round Mound]

Athleticism is a tool but its not that important if you don't mix it up with skill, heart, iq, toughness etc

What player at 6'4 is stronger than Barkley today? From 84
What powerforward is stronger than Malone today? From 85
What center is stronger and bigger than Shaq while being an elite athlete today? From 92

[Mr Feeny]

Who on earth has a 48 inch vertical and can run a 4.3? Nobody.

But why is this surprising? That entire Pistons clique go to sleep at night seething at the fact that Jordan ended their dynasty when they were dead smack in the middle of their prime, and got the acclaim that they wished they would have continued to receive. Ishah. Laimbeer. Salley. All dream of Jordan when they sleep at night.

Not unlike the Jordan haters on here.

[Smoke117]

That's true, but we need to just stop comparing players fomr this era to before for the simple fact of the pathetic rules that are in place where if you even try to brush a fly off the opposing defensive player you get called for a foul. Does anyone really think James Harden would be James Harden 15 years ago? lol.

[Mamba4Life]

Who on earth has a 48 inch vertical and can run a 4.3? Nobody.



Jordan doesnt either

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Isiah and the Bad Boys still bitter

[defyinside]

Players today may jump higher, but they are not typically "faster" or more mobile.
Many today's player lack fundamentals, footwork, or postgame compared to 90-2000
Many players may be fancier today, like kyrie, but i don't think a kyrie is as effective as an isiah thomas or TP on an NBA court. On a playground court maybe.
When you look at international players, like bodganovic, Ingles, Jokic, they are very good players in today's era, but far from being athletic freaks, athletic abilities.
No handchecking make it possible for players to fancy dribble as well, so many today's players are overrated as dribblers.
The overall 2020 nba athlete may jump higher, yess. Does it make them more effective players than their older counterparts ? Not sure :)

[ArbitraryWater]

Oh for sure.

Jordan stans suffer from mass derangement though.

[DoctorP]

Shawn Marion s superior to his former self and Vince Carter too


yeeeeeaaaaaahhhhhh

[Smoke117]

The Bulls were actually blessed with two guys that were way beyond their peers athletically: Scottie Pippen early career highlights (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8_GiznzWbk) Jordan and Pippen would just dominate teams with their advanced athleticism in the first threepeat.

[LostCause]

The Bulls were actually blessed with two guys that were way beyond their peers athletically: Scottie Pippen early career highlights (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8_GiznzWbk) Jordan and Pippen would just dominate teams with their advanced athleticism in the first threepeat.

Pippens athleticism was crazy underrated. Do people even remember he participated in the dunk contest and pulled off a legit free throw line dunk?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhyTNWKt0r8

[Soundwave]

I don't even know if I agree with the main premise.

Top NBA athletes circa 1992-93

Jordan
Dominique
Drexler
Pippen
Barkley
Malone
Kemp
Shaq
David Robinson
Hakeem

Today:

Giannis
Durant
Leonard
LeBron
Westbrook
Embiid
Lillard
LaVine

James Harden is not more athletic than Dominique Wilkins or Clyde Drexler. Giannis is an impressive athlete ... but moreso than young Shaq or David Robinson? Emiid moreso than Hakeem? Nope.

[Kblaze8855]

Who on earth has a 48 inch vertical and can run a 4.3? Nobody.


Thats not really the way to go. The nfl combine is full of freaks. Cameron Wake is 270 and has a documented on film 47 inch vertical. Not word of mouth or so and so said. 200 people saw and recorded it.

The nba has freaks too but a lot of it is word of mouth when you talk back in the day.

Vernon Davis was legit Ben Wallace strong and jumping like Vince Carter with a 4.38 40 at 255. We talking people built like Ron attest, running like Iverson, jumping like Nate Robinson and benching 450.

[AlternativeAcc.]

All the best athletes in the 80's and 90's were playing football and baseball

Nowadays basketball is the most sought after sport for elite athletes, so the competition is stronger than it's ever been. In a very tremendous way.

That's why there's like 25 guys today who would've been as good or better than Jordan in the 90's. It's a sad reality for boomers who grew old thinking Jordan was a God because he somewhat dominated garbage competition on stacked teams, but of course Jordan's career was too good to be true. He wouldn't win any rings in any other era.

[Soundwave]

All the best athletes in the 80's and 90's were playing football and baseball

Nowadays basketball is the most sought after sport for elite athletes, so the competition is stronger than it's ever been. In a very tremendous way.

That's why there's like 25 guys today who would've been as good or better than Jordan in the 90's. It's a sad reality for boomers who grew up thinking Jordan was a God because he somewhat dominated garbage competition on stacked teams, but of course Jordan's career was too good to be true. He wouldn't win any rings in any other era.

lol, Kawhi Leonard is arguably the best overall player in the game today, he's nothing more than a less athletic, more robotic, less agile version of Jordan.

39 year old Jordan was dropping 23 ppg in a more athletic era than today with Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson, etc. in their primes, a prime 27/28 year old Jordan would have no problem destroying the league today.

If Kawhi Leonard can win titles in this era, you're smoking more crack than the 1983 Bulls if you think a prime Jordan wouldn't.

[FireDavidKahn]

That's partly what made Jordan dominant. He is an athlete for today's era that was plopped in an era where people were not nearly as athletic.

[FireDavidKahn]

Pippens athleticism was crazy underrated. Do people even remember he participated in the dunk contest and pulled off a legit free throw line dunk?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhyTNWKt0r8

Damn, that was a REAL free throw line dunk. None of the half foot/one foot in front of the line that people today fawn over and call a free throw line dunk

[Soundwave]

That's partly what made Jordan dominant. He is an athlete for today's era that was plopped in an era where people were not nearly as athletic.

There's no athlete in any NBA era with the combination of speed (comparable to a Westbrook, Iverson), mid-air agility ("hangtime"), and size/wingspan (speed of 6'0-6'3 player in a 6'6 body with massive hands to boot).

Some guys have one or two of those things but not all three.

It simply doesn't exist.

[AlternativeAcc.]

lol, Kawhi Leonard is arguably the best overall player in the game today, he's nothing more than a less athletic, more robotic, less agile version of Jordan.

39 year old Jordan was dropping 23 ppg in a more athletic era than today with Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson, etc. in their primes, a prime 27/28 year old Jordan would have no problem destroying the league today.

If Kawhi Leonard can win titles in this era, you're smoking more crack than the 1983 Bulls if you think a prime Jordan wouldn't.

Kawhi Leonard is the MJ comparison? The guy who won FMVP averaging 16ppg and won a ring on a stacked Raptors cast because the Warriors got decimated by injuries? LOL ok...

Kawhi has yet to win a legit ring as the man, so you've effectively proven my point. MJ and Kawhi can't win in todays era without ridiculous circumstances going their way.

[Soundwave]

Kawhi Leonard is the MJ comparison? The guy who won FMVP averaging 16ppg and won a ring on a stacked Raptors cast because the Warriors got decimated by injuries? LOL ok...

Kawhi has yet to win a legit ring as the man, so you've effectively proven my point. MJ and Kawhi can't win in todays era without ridiculous circumstances going their way.

Kawhi Leonard is nothing but a poor man's Jordan, and many people consider him to be the best overall player in the game today (yeah defence is a thing).

He's nothing but a far less athletic version of Jordan with less creativity and agility and crappier footwork, a much slower first step to boot. Jordan would completely dominate today's NBA. Senior citizen Jordan at age 39 was still able to score 23 ppg ... sh*t doesn't change that much.

Prime Shaq would rip the modern NBA to shreds too. Certain players are simply that good.

[FireDavidKahn]

There's no athlete in any NBA era with the combination of speed (comparable to a Westbrook, Iverson), mid-air agility ("hangtime"), and size/wingspan (speed of 6'0-6'3 player in a 6'6 body with massive hands to boot).

Some guys have one or two of those things but not all three.

It simply doesn't exist.

LeBron.

[Soundwave]

LeBron.

Nope, he doesn't have anywhere close to that speed/first step.

LeBron is more like a truck, Jordan is like a Lamborghini, they're different.

Jordan somehow retained the speed of a small player but somehow gained a growth spurt to 6'6 some how even though no one else in his family is taller than 5'9, it's just a freak occurrence of nature.

There's never been a combination of a player that fast still being that tall, to get prime Jordan like speed and explosion off the first step, is pretty much reserved for players like Iverson.

LeBron is an impressive athlete in other ways, but first step ... nah. He's not even one of the top 10 in NBA history, Wade in his prime has a more explosive first step than LeBron.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Kawhi Leonard is nothing but a poor man's Jordan, and many people consider him to be the best overall player in the game today (yeah defence is a thing).

He's nothing but a far less athletic version of Jordan with less creativity and agility and crappier footwork, a much slower first step to boot. Jordan would completely dominate today's NBA. Senior citizen Jordan at age 39 was still able to score 23 ppg ... sh*t doesn't change that much.

Prime Shaq would rip the modern NBA to shreds too. Certain players are simply that good.

Kawhit is a better defender than MJ and better long range shooter. MJ is quicker for sure. Westbrook and Derozan are quicker than Kawhit too...

Kawhit is overshadowed by LeBron and Giannis. Kawhit is not viewed as the best player in basketball.

Nobody is saying Jordan wouldn't put up good stats, but there's no way he's dominating the game like LeBron has. LeBron's bball IQ and all around play blows Jordan out of the water. Jordan would be a mix of Kawhi, Derozan, and Westbrook, three players LeBron has absolutely owned his entire career.

[FireDavidKahn]

Nope, he doesn't have anywhere close to that speed/first step.

LeBron is more like a truck, Jordan is like a Lamborghini, they're different.

Jordan somehow retained the speed of a small player but somehow gained a growth spurt to 6'6 some how even though no one else in his family is taller than 5'9, it's just a freak occurrence of nature.

There's never been a combination of a player that fast still being that tall, to get prime Jordan like speed and explosion off the first step, is pretty much reserved for players like Iverson.

LeBron is an impressive athlete in other ways, but first step ... nah. He's not even one of the top 10 in NBA history, Wade in his prime has a more explosive first step than LeBron.

You are the type of person who only thinks speed = athleticism. LeBron has 50 pounds on Jordan.

When you take in EVERY aspect of athleticism, only Wilt rivals LeBron with the total package.

[Soundwave]

You are the type of person who only thinks speed = athleticism. LeBron has 50 pounds on Jordan.

When you take in EVERY aspect of athleticism, only Wilt rivals LeBron with the total package.

Speed and first step is a large component of basketball.

This isn't football where you can just body check someone off you to score a basket. Until that changes, strength only has a certain amount of utility in a sport like basketball.

[STATUTORY]

Speed and first step is a large component of basketball.

This isn't football where you can just body check someone off you to score a basket. Until that changes, strength only has a certain amount of utility in a sport like basketball.


not to mention body control and coordination, when factoring those in, MJ is the better athlete and its not even close, so much more acrobatic.

[Soundwave]

Kawhit is a better defender than MJ and better long range shooter. MJ is quicker for sure. Westbrook and Derozan are quicker than Kawhit too...

Kawhit is overshadowed by LeBron and Giannis. Kawhit is not viewed as the best player in basketball.

Nobody is saying Jordan wouldn't put up good stats, but there's no way he's dominating the game like LeBron has. LeBron's bball IQ and all around play blows Jordan out of the water. Jordan would be a mix of Kawhi, Derozan, and Westbrook, three players LeBron has absolutely owned his entire career.


Yet here you are obsessed with Jordan and all this discussion about Jordan 20+ years after his Bulls career.

No one will give two sh*ts about LeBron five years after he retires, just like kids today have no concept of Shaq (which is lame, but that's how it goes). Even Kobe, people were forgetting him and moving on until his unfortunate and tragic death this year. Nobody talks about Tim Duncan anymore.

Once LeBron's recency bias fades, kids will move on and forget about him. He has not won enough in his career to be that remarkable. 3 championships in like 17 seasons is not impressive.

[tpols]

who in todays game is more athletic than MJ, david robinson, barkley, shaq, wilkins, kemp, clyde etc.?

except maybe lebron and giannis, id say no one. harden, curry, and even kawhi really arent crazy athletes. kawhi is big, but he moves slow compared to them.

[Soundwave]

not to mention body control and coordination, when factoring those in, MJ is the better athlete and its not even close, so much more acrobatic.

Exactly speed and agility are paramount components of athleticism in the NBA, particularly one's ability to do that from a stand still or near stand still.

[AlternativeAcc.]

not to mention body control and coordination, when factoring those in, MJ is the better athlete and its not even close, so much more acrobatic.

Wrong.

LeBron has the best mixture of Size, Speed, Strength, Dexterity, Body Control, Agility, Durability, Endurance, Package size, etc of any athlete ever.


LeBron could walk onto an NFL team and be the best TE, WR, Linebacker, DE, or Safety in the league

[Soundwave]

Wrong.

LeBron has the best mixture of Size, Speed, Strength, Dexterity, Body Control, Agility, Durability, Endurance, Package size, etc of any athlete ever.


LeBron could walk onto an NFL team and be the best TE, WR, Linebacker, DE, or Safety in the league

Yes he could be an NFL player. Good for him.

So could Karl Malone.

That only has so much utility in basketball especially when you don't even bother to play in the post half the time and stand at the top of the key.

LeBron has trouble beating people off the dribble one on one, sometimes even stiff ass 7 footers because he doesn't really have that explosive of a first step.

[FireDavidKahn]

Speed and first step is a large component of basketball.

This isn't football where you can just body check someone off you to score a basket. Until that changes, strength only has a certain amount of utility in a sport like basketball.

Someone forgot what young LeBron was like

[FireDavidKahn]

Wrong.

LeBron has the best mixture of Size, Speed, Strength, Dexterity, Body Control, Agility, Durability, Endurance, Package size, etc of any athlete ever.


LeBron could walk onto an NFL team and be the best TE, WR, Linebacker, DE, or Safety in the league

Exactly. 2019-2020 obviously isn't in that tier (still one of the best athletes this season) but young LeBron was on a different level.

[Soundwave]

Someone forgot what young LeBron was like

The fastest players are 6'3 or shorter generally.

You're confusing "well he's fast for his size" for "just plain fast", these are two different things.

Kevin Durant is fast ... for his size. He's not relatively fast though compared to say an Allen Iverson or Russell Westbrook.

The unique component about Jordan is he had the size of what should be a mid-speed player (6'5-6'8 range), but the speed and explosiveness was some how like a player literally like a quick 6'0 little PG at his prime.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Yes he could be an NFL player. Good for him.

So could Karl Malone.

That only has so much utility in basketball especially when you don't even bother to play in the post half the time and stand at the top of the key.

LeBron has trouble beating people off the dribble one on one, sometimes even stiff ass 7 footers because he doesn't really have that explosive of a first step.

LeBron had an elite first step in his athletic prime, and his acceleration has always been off the charts. LeBron's the best athlete in history. Size matters. He would bully Jordan.

NFL breeds the best athletes in the world. LeBron would be the best athlete on any NFL team, that says a lot.

[Soundwave]

LeBron had an elite first step in his athletic prime, and his acceleration has always been off the charts. LeBron's the best athlete in history. Size matters. He would bully Jordan.

No he didn't. He had good first step for his size, but not in the overall grand scheme of things. He's no where near as fast as an Allen Iverson for example. Jordan in his prime is actually about as fast. Not just "well he's pretty fast for someone that tall". I'm talking literally as quick.

Those are two very different things.

LeBron James in his prime was getting his shot swatted back by an old ass Kobe Bryant at the All-Star game because he's not fast enough and couldn't generate seperation.

He is a good athlete is other ways, but speed off a stand still dribble ... nope. "For his size" yeah ok, but relative to an actual speed based player like Iverson ... no. Wade is faster in his prime than LeBron.

[FireDavidKahn]

The fastest players are 6'3 or shorter generally.

You're confusing "well he's fast for his size" for "just plain fast", these are two different things.

Kevin Durant is fast ... for his size. He's not relatively fast though compared to say an Allen Iverson or Russell Westbrook.

The unique component about Jordan is he had the size of what should be a mid-speed player (6'5-6'8 range), but the speed and explosiveness was some how like a player literally like a quick 6'0 little PG at his prime.

IF we want to go this route then Muggsy Bogues and Nate Robinson are among the GOAT athletes.:lol

A good way to put it is that LeBron doesn't have the best single category (in terms of athleticism) in history but is essentially top 5 in every category. The combination of everything that entails athleticism is something the NBA hasn't seen before.

[Soundwave]

IF we want to go this route then Muggsy Bogues and Nate Robinson are among the GOAT athletes.:lol

A good way to put it is that LeBron doesn't have the best single category (in terms of athleticism) in history but is essentially top 5 in every category. The combination of everything that entails athleticism is something the NBA hasn't seen before.

If Nate Robinson was 6'6 with a wingspan that large ... maybe he would be. That's my point. Jordan *literally* had that level of speed .... not just "well he's fast for 6'6" type speed.

You cannot guard someone if you can't stay in front of them. The only thing you can do then is what the Pistons used to do ... collapse with a double/triple team and grab/hold/push as much as possible.

If Iverson was 6'6, stronger, and had better basketball I.Q. but the same speed and larger hands ... are you theoretically talking about the best player ever? Quite possibly, yes.


I don't think there's ever been in the history of the game a player taller than 6'3 who has that much speed off the dribble. Usually once you get over 6'2/6'3 in height the trade off is that you will lose speed to get that height, that is just normal. For whatever freak occurrence of nature, that didn't apply to Jordan.

[FireDavidKahn]

If Nate Robinson was 6'6 with a wingspan that large ... maybe he would be. That's my point. Jordan *literally* had that level of speed .... not just "well he's fast for 6'6" type speed.

I don't think there's ever been in the history of the game a player taller than 6'3 who has that much speed off the dribble.

You cannot guard someone if you can't stay in front of them. The only thing you can do then is what the Pistons used to do ... collapse with a double/triple team and grab/hold/push as much as possible.

If Iverson was 6'6, stronger, and had better basketball I.Q. but the same speed and larger hands ... are you theoretically talking about the best player ever? Quite possibly, yes.

Love statements like this. If Iverson was only

Taller
Stronger
Faster
Higher IQ
Shot better
Better defender
Not a cancer

He might be the GOAT!

[Soundwave]

Love statements like this. If Iverson was only

Taller
Stronger
Faster
Higher IQ
Shot better
Better defender
Not a cancer

He might be the GOAT!

He would be probably, sure. I mean he was scoring 33 ppg at the NBA level at 6'0 (lol, really actually 5'11 probably, I've met him and I'm 6'0 even and I'm taller than him).

My point is just to say that Jordan possessed his own kind of freakish mixture of athleticism that is equally rare to any of the other great NBA "freaks of nature".

There is no way a 6'6 player should be able to move that fast, it should be impossible. You can't have a half of foot in height extra and still retain the speed of the fastest 6'0 player. This doesn't happen, ok, it's a freak occurrence.

[Turbo Slayer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG4gU_RiJ2c

[Turbo Slayer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0UsEPrvrTs

[Turbo Slayer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAyKv5UznxU

[Soundwave]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG4gU_RiJ2c

Off the dribble he is the fastest the player in NBA history over 6'3 IMO. There is no one faster or that explosive laterally. It just doesn't exist.

[Turbo Slayer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8FYUdPPUy4

[Soundwave]

I actually don't even think the current NBA is the "most athletic" version of the NBA. That would probably be the early 2000s.

I mean yeah it's nice Giannis can dunk over a player 6 inches shorter than him ... Vince Carter did the opposite ... 6'6 player hurdling over a 7 foot player, lol. Which is more impressive?

[Turbo Slayer]

I actually don't even think the current NBA is the "most athletic" version of the NBA. That would probably be the early to mid 2000s.

I mean yeah it's nice Giannis can dunk over a player 6 inches shorter than him ... Vince Carter did the opposite ... 6'6 player hurdling over a 7 foot player, lol. Which is more impressive?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZsj9ceoHO4

[AlternativeAcc.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG4gU_RiJ2c

I don't see insane quickness. I see inept defense.

AI had the quicker 1st step and it's not debatable

[Turbo Slayer]

I don't see insane quickness. I see inept defense.

AI had the quicker 1st step and it's not debatable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37GlwXCgi7Q

[Soundwave]

I don't see insane quickness. I see inept defense.

AI had the quicker 1st step and it's not debatable

It should not even be comparable. A 6'6 player in no way should ever be able to move as fast as a fast 6'0 player. A human body above 6'2, 6'3 or so is not supposed to move that quickly period.

And Iverson is really not even 6'0. He's 5'10, 5'11.

The trade off you gain with height is that you have less speed. That's how its supposed to work for literally every human being on the planet.

[Soundwave]

That's the other thing with Usain Bolt that makes him a complete freak of nature is he is 6'5 in height, generally the fastest 100m sprinters are 6'0 or so. Some people don't understand how unbelievable that is.

[AlternativeAcc.]

It should not even be comparable. A 6'6 player in no way should ever be able to move as fast as a fast 6'0 player. A human body above 6'2, 6'3 or so is not supposed to move that quickly period.

And Iverson is really not even 6'0. He's 5'10, 5'11.

The trade off you gain with height is that you have less speed. That's how its supposed to work for literally every human being on the planet.
So you go from saying Jordan is literally as quick as AI to using the size/speed ratio argument?

LeBron is 6'8 260 and moves like a guard

He shut down D-Rose who arguably has the quickest first step in history, meanwhile Jordan got cooked by AI

LeBron is a different animal

[Soundwave]

So you go from saying Jordan is literally as quick as AI to using the size/speed ratio argument?

LeBron is 6'8 260 and moves like a guard

He shut down D-Rose who arguably has the quickest first step in history, meanwhile Jordan got cooked by AI

LeBron is a different animal

They are both different animals.

Jordan is equally as much of a genetic freak to have that level of speed and vertical leap at a height above 6'2/6'3.

Derrick Rose is 6'3, LeBron is 6'8, that gives him some leverage in being able to bother Rose's shot, at least I would hope so.

I think what happened in Jordan's case is for whatever reason the speed he had at 5'9 in high school simply was largely retained when he had that inexplicable growth spurt to 6'6.

Which shouldn't be possible, but it for whatever reason it happened.

[LeCroix]

Pippens athleticism was crazy underrated. Do people even remember he participated in the dunk contest and pulled off a legit free throw line dunk?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhyTNWKt0r8

I never saw this to my life so thank you for sharing to our basketball community

https://ibb.co/k3cP7Tt

https://i.ibb.co/k3cP7Tt/dunk-line-free-jump.png (https://ibb.co/k3cP7Tt)

https://i.ibb.co/z8ftMgz/dunk-line-free-jump.png

[AlternativeAcc.]

They are both different animals.

Jordan is equally as much of a genetic freak to have that level of speed and vertical leap at a height above 6'2/6'3.

Derrick Rose is 6'3, LeBron is 6'8, that gives him some leverage in being able to bother Rose's shot, at least I would hope so.

I think what happened in Jordan's case is for whatever reason the speed he had at 5'9 in high school simply was largely retained when he had that inexplicable growth spurt to 6'6.

Which shouldn't be possible, but it for whatever reason it happened.

I think LeBron's size and strength advantage is more important than Jordan's slight speed advantage. If LeBron can contain D-Rose who was faster than Jordan, than he could also stop Jordan. I think LeBron's chase-down blocks are the best display of athleticism that we've ever seen in sports

Both great athletes for sure, but LeBron gets the nod as best athlete overall

[AlternativeAcc.]

I never saw this to my life so thank you for sharing to our basketball community

https://ibb.co/k3cP7Tt

https://i.ibb.co/k3cP7Tt/dunk-line-free-jump.png (https://ibb.co/k3cP7Tt)

One upped Jordan there.

Pippen made a habit of it

[Soundwave]

I think LeBron's size and strength advantage is more important than Jordan's slight speed advantage. If LeBron can contain D-Rose who was faster than Jordan, than he could also stop Jordan. I think LeBron's chase-down blocks are the best display of athleticism that we've ever seen in sports

Both great athletes for sure, but LeBron gets the nod as best athlete overall

I think LeBron's strength would be more of an asset if he really utilized it more to punish players like Shaq did with his strength, but wanting to play point guard effectively neuters a lot of that strength because what really are you doing with it standing at the top of the key. If you're playing someone stronger than you, that's exactly where you would choose for them to be.

My point is not really even to compare the two, simply to state, Jordan is as much of a genetic freak of nature.

He is probably the fastest player in the history of the sport over 6'3. I don't really see a comparable directly in that.

And yes for 6'8/6'9 I would say LeBron is the most athletic I've seen in that class of player. And for 7 feet or taller probably Shaq, then Giannis and David Robinson in a tie.

Though foot work also gets totally lost in these debates. Yeah it's great to be able to explode fast or jump high ... but Olajuwon had way better foot work than David Robinson despite DRob being probably the better pure athlete.

Olajuwon made mine meat out of Robinson. Jordan also has impeccable foot work, so did Kobe Bryant. Foot work and speed are hard to separate because they translate to how effective your speed is in an actual game situation.

[tpols]

maybe what isiah thomas meant was the average player was more athletic.

there's just no way you can look at the top tier guys from today and back then and say theyre more athletic.

its a landslide comparison. james harden wouldnt even be a top 15 player back then, hes an MVP candidate today.

[FireDavidKahn]

maybe what isiah thomas meant was the average player was more athletic.

there's just no way you can look at the top tier guys from today and back then and say theyre more athletic.

its a landslide comparison. james harden wouldnt even be a top 15 player back then, hes an MVP candidate today.

Probably 99% what he meant.

[LeCroix]

maybe what isiah thomas meant was the average player was more athletic.

there's just no way you can look at the top tier guys from today and back then and say theyre more athletic.

its a landslide comparison. james harden wouldnt even be a top 15 player back then, hes an MVP candidate today.

You picked on one guy who isn't the best athletically but cant I do the same for any era

Look to this the top athletes of this era are incredible levels with LBJ, Young Zion, Russell Westbrook, Dwight Howard (of his primes), John Wall, and the list goes farther but you see the point. The point that makes the biggest is not the top 3 atheletes prime and prime, but the middle and bottom of the pack. As the eras go on you will find less players qualify because they need more skills to compete so look to this. The average player now will make all stars in weaker eras. Look to this, players that are snubbed from all stars in this era would be superstars in other eras. I can compare the top 5 players of each year that dont make all stars and they would be stars in 90s eras. check it out.

[LeCroix]

Probably 99% what he meant.

Same point I posted good thought

[tpols]

You picked on one guy who isn't the best athletically but cant I do the same for any era

Look to this the top athletes of this era are incredible levels with old LBJ, Young Zion, Russell Westbrook, Dwight Howard (of his primes), John Wall, and the list goes farther but you see the point. The point that makes the biggest is not the top 3 atheletes prime and prime, but the middle and bottom of the pack. As the eras go on you will find less players qualify because they need more skills to compete so look to this. The average player now will make all stars in weaker eras. Look to this, players that are snubbed from all stars in this era would be superstars in other eras. I can compare the top 5 players of each year that dont make all stars and they would be stars in 90s eras. check it out.

thats a paltry list compared to

young shaq
david robinson
Michael Jordan
charles barkley
shawn kemp
etc.

like... john wall really? zion whose played like 20 games and been hurt all year? were talking peak ****ing shaquille oneal built like superman running like a deer.

its not even ****ing close.

even the mid 2000s had better athletes than today.

vince carter
amare
garnett
wade
young lebron
kobe
etc

a historical nobody like jrich or desmond mason was as athletic as anybody out there today besides giannis. who is like a poor mans drob.

[STATUTORY]

thats a paltry list compared to

young shaq
david robinson
Michael Jordan
charles barkley
shawn kemp
etc.

like... john wall really? zion whose played like 20 games and been hurt all year? were talking peak ****ing shaquille oneal built like superman running like a deer.

its not even ****ing close.

even the mid 2000s had better athletes than today.

vince carter
amare
garnett
wade
young lebron
kobe
etc

a historical nobody like jrich was as athletic as anybody out there today besides giannis. who is like a poor mans drob.

early 2000s was an absolutely STACKED era, players didnt have godly offensive efficiency stats due to rules favoring the defense, but in term of talent it was formidable

[Soundwave]

early 2000s was an absolutely STACKED era, players didnt have godly stats due to rules favoring th defense, but in term of talent it was formidable

The very early part of the 2000s I would say is the peak for the NBA athletically.

Shaq wasn't too fat and Vince Carter still wanted to dunk.

Grandpa Jordan on shot knees at age 39 was still dropping 23 ppg in that era though, I don't think there's really much of a doubt if he was 29 instead of 39, he'd have led the league in scoring that season anyway.

[tpols]

early 2000s was an absolutely STACKED era, players didnt have godly offensive efficiency stats due to rules favoring the defense, but in term of talent it was formidable

you know its bad when i accidently leave out allen iverson who was a top football recruit as well at like 170 lbs.

he was a QB who couldve basically been like mike vick if he had played in the nfl. (and funny enough they both hail from the same area)

[FireDavidKahn]

I think something needs clarification here, when talking about who is more athletic between MJ and LeBron it's almost a moot point in a sense. Both are among the greatest athletic specimens to ever play in the NBA. We all favor one or the other but when having this discussion we shouldn't act like one was a bad athlete or heads and shoulders above the other one.

My previous posts may have come across like that :lol but in reality even I can acknowledge that MJ is an athletic God. He is quicker and had a better first step no doubt. LeBron was "slower" in that regard even in his prime but still absolutely elite in that area (compared to the league). MJ was able to use that quickness and insane vertical/hangtime to finesse around basically everyone near the hoop.

On the other hand, LeBron can use his brute strength/hangtime/vertical to effectively end in the same result. Look at how many times defenders physically try to wrap up LeBron to stop him from attempting a lay up and yet he is able to absorb it and get the basket anyway. MJ did not have nearly the same strength to do that time and time again like LBJ can. As someone else mentioned, LeBron's chase down blocks are a prime example of how crazy an athlete he is. You have to be quick and fast as hell to even catch up to people on a fast break and then you add in the fact LeBron is 6'9" and possesses an elite vertical to even do the things he can.

It all boils down to the "potato, potahto" argument. I personally give the edge to LeBron because at his size and combination of everything just hasn't ever been seen before.

[KD7]

So many players that actually played in that era are literally admitting that today's players are more athletic yet fools are still in denial :oldlol:

[defyinside]

http://dbcgmp5q1c16s.cloudfront.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/04102150/Average-Height2.png

http://dbcgmp5q1c16s.cloudfront.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/04103239/Average-Weight.png

Here are the stats of height/weight of NBA players throughout history.

You can see that for height, there is a tunnel since the late 70s of 78-80 inches for the average height.
Peaks are 1985 and 2011.

For weight, the tunnel comes later early 1990s.
Peaks are 2001 and 2011.
Till late 80s, players were significantly smaller.

Isiah peaked mid-eighty effectively, so yeah he should have played with smaller players than today.

Now what do you put in athletism ?

Quickness
Speed with and without the ball.
Leaping ability.
Strength ? (how do you measure that)
Agility
Bodyawareness ?

The full 3pts era may give us a decrease in raw athletism needed to be an effective nba player.

Extra :
Like KD said his most impressive MJ moment was him at 40 still owning the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc8tewsEy1Y

I have never seen any player being that fluid when playing the game of basketball. Nobody has matched this fluidity yet.

[trada7029]

Curry/Klay

Dirk/Kidd

Duncan/Ginobili/Parker




^^^^ least athletic Finals comp ever

[defyinside]

You can add Puerto Rico 2004, Lithuania 2004, Argentina 2004, Greece 2006.
Freaks of nature international players owning Pro Football built like NBA Players.

[trada7029]

Jordan's best statistical year 1987-88; 23 teams in the league; 115 starting positions available for players to fill.

LeBron's best statistical year 2008-09; 30 teams in the league; 150 starting positions available.

Player ability is correlated with minutes played, and BPM is as good of an advanced stat as any, and VORP incorporates both. So we'll use VORP.

The median starting player in 1987-88 would be around the 57-58th best player in the league. The median starting player in 2008-09 would be the 75th best player in the league

A sampling of the median starting player in Jordan's best statistical year (player around #57-58 in VORP):

Robert Parish, AC Green, Dennis Johnson, Rolando Blackman, Sleepy Floyd, Kevin Johnson, Tom Chambers, Terry Cummings.

LeBron (average starting player around #75 in total VORP):

36 year old Grant Hill, Leandro Barbosa, Amar'e Stoudamire, Paul Millsap, Mike Miller, Rafer Alston, John Salmons, Richard Jefferson, Brad Miller.


I mean I don't know for sure which team constructed of those players would be "better", as they are both entirely mediocre (as you would expect), but the 1987-88 group seems better to me. Then once you account for the fact the top of the league was better in those years (Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Barkley, Jordan), the competition Jordan faced was clearly superior.

So yes, I am going to argue the competition in '87-88 was better than in 2008-'09, because it obviously was for anyone that bothered to actually think about the right way to analyze that claim and look at the players.

[Round Mound]

Name me a 6'4 and 5/8 ft player weighing 290-300 lbs who could jump like this off two legs without taking extra steps like college Charles Barkley:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9QTKDw-Ko8

[Soundwave]

I think something needs clarification here, when talking about who is more athletic between MJ and LeBron it's almost a moot point in a sense. Both are among the greatest athletic specimens to ever play in the NBA. We all favor one or the other but when having this discussion we shouldn't act like one was a bad athlete or heads and shoulders above the other one.

My previous posts may have come across like that :lol but in reality even I can acknowledge that MJ is an athletic God. He is quicker and had a better first step no doubt. LeBron was "slower" in that regard even in his prime but still absolutely elite in that area (compared to the league). MJ was able to use that quickness and insane vertical/hangtime to finesse around basically everyone near the hoop.

On the other hand, LeBron can use his brute strength/hangtime/vertical to effectively end in the same result. Look at how many times defenders physically try to wrap up LeBron to stop him from attempting a lay up and yet he is able to absorb it and get the basket anyway. MJ did not have nearly the same strength to do that time and time again like LBJ can. As someone else mentioned, LeBron's chase down blocks are a prime example of how crazy an athlete he is. You have to be quick and fast as hell to even catch up to people on a fast break and then you add in the fact LeBron is 6'9" and possesses an elite vertical to even do the things he can.

It all boils down to the "potato, potahto" argument. I personally give the edge to LeBron because at his size and combination of everything just hasn't ever been seen before.


Jordan had some insane blocks, this is at age 39 or 40 ... I don't even know how many times in an NBA game I've seen a player just straight up pin a ball against the backboard with two hands like this


https://youtu.be/M3jwIA7lBXY?t=158

This is in college, he hits his head on the backboard


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFa3zdRX58I

For a 6'6 player, this is absurd. He's jumping off one foot in the second video too which is bonkers.

[Axe]

So many players that actually played in that era are literally admitting that today's players are more athletic yet fools are still in denial :oldlol:
Stfu manny

[Round Mound]

And MJ was really only 6´4 3/4 ft and Charles was 6'4 5/8 ft.

What player moves like this while being 40 lbs plus overweight today?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1pLCMxJbE4

[Soundwave]

Jordan didn't even really play in one era.

The 80s is a different era from the 90s, hell I'd say the first half of the 90s is different from the second half of the 90s and then he played again in the early 2000s.

He played against Dr. J, Kareem, Magic, Bird, but also David Robinson, Barkley, Olajuwon, Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, Shaq, Kobe, Iverson, and Vince Carter.

This is like 3-4 different eras. Isiah was basically done by '92.

[andgar923]

"Because the athletes that are in this generation are so far superior than what was in my generation. [When we were playing], Jordan was the best athlete that we had ever seen, [but] from an athletic standpoint, there are like 10 or 11 guys in the NBA right now with Jordan's athleticism. We didn't have that back then." - Isiah Thomas

I'd take anything from Isiah with a grain of salt. That dude is as salty as they come. He Laimbeer and others are trying to downplay MJ cause they're about to be reminded once again of MJ's GOATness.

It's also sad that Isiah is saying these things because he himself was a freak athlete. He'd be one of the best athletes today, very quick, crazy vertical, great flexibility and agility. He played with one of the most freakish athletes of all time Rodman.

And there's nobody with MJ's athleticism today... NOBODY.

We have people that can jump as high as he did. There's 6'4 guys that may be as quick. There's guys that may be similarly strong. There's a handful that may be as agile.

But nobody has all of these traits combined.

So yeah, MJ was a freak athlete, once in a lifetime athlete like Shaq, Bron, Zion, etc. but that's not what made him great.

Otherwise players like Brent Barry, Stacy Augmon, Eddie Jones, etc. etc. etc would be not just good players but GOAT candidates.

There was other players dunking from the ft line (or close) during MJ's era. There was big men 6'8 240 pounds dribbling the ball, shooting 3s. There was 7 footers that could drive and dunk off the dribble, cross you over and dunk close from the ft line.

Today's era values athleticism more than talent and IQ due to the rules.

Otherwise Corey Benjamin would've been an all star GOAT level player according to some of you.
The Banning brothers would've been dominating the league.

Nothing but salt from Zeke, which is sad.