Who is the GOAT? (Poll)

[Roundball_Rock]

Who do you consider the GOAT? Let's see where people stand circa April 2020.

[Turbo Slayer]

Michael Jordan.

[Akeem34TheDream]

I am white so I voted for Bird.

[LeCroix]

Michael

[Monta Ellis MVP]

LeBron has only won 3 FMVP’s when Jordan had 6 but I do not think they were good at basketball back then. I watched some YouTube videos and it looked like they all suck. LeBron is the best.

[trada7029]

Here's what all the best statisticians think:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-michael-jordan-was-the-best/

[HoopsNY]

I am white so I voted for Bird.

lmao

[SATAN]

I think we can all agree LeBron would have won 6 or more rings were he in MJ's shoes whereas MJ would of punched JR Smith in the face were he in LeBron's shoes.

[trada7029]

.
NBA.com... 94% of Lebron's shots outside of 10 feet are either "open" (4-6 feet from closest defender) or "wide open" (6+ feet), compared to 77.1% (https://stats.nba.com/player/201935/shots-dash/) for Harden, 82.0% (https://stats.nba.com/player/203078/shots-dash/) for Bradley Beal, 77.8% (https://stats.nba.com/player/202695/shots-dash/) for Kawhi, and 66.6% (https://stats.nba.com/player/201142/shots-dash/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) for KDGoat (in 2019).

The stats show that Lebron avoids contested jumpers, and instead defers many of the contested shot possessions to teammates.

This is a problem because the best player is supposed to take the contested shots, and guys that are hitting contested shots require doubles - these are things the best player is supposed do - take the contested shot possessions and start commanding doubles by making those contested shots (and usually juicing the whole team).

By shirking his duties of taking contested shots, Lebron never informs the defense "I'M TAKING OVER AND IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW WELL MY MAN GUARDS ME"

So again, he doesn't command double-teams or significant adjustment in general, allowing coaches like Stan Van Gundy to stay at home/rest on defense and lock down teammates - his weak-shooting/long dribbles simply don't shift defenses or wear down teams like the ball movement/better-shooting stars he faces, so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively.. bron-ball's weak-shooting, long dribbles loses the attrition battle on the championship level.

it looks like lebron's teams aren't playing defense, but it's them losing the attrition battle.. it's like an MMA fight - the best defense is a good offense and the losing fighter must mount sufficient OFFENSE or the ref will stop it (14' Finals was a tapout - heat couldn't fight fire with fire/blunt the Spurs attack/wear them down)

[LostCause]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DdmChZXydg

[Roundball_Rock]

Here's what all the best statisticians think:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-michael-jordan-was-the-best/

There are flaws in that analysis. For one, it mentions MJ being the career leader in PER and things like WS per 48. Guys like Kareem saw their career averages go down as they aged (we are seeing with LeBron. Jordan avoided that by retiring instead of having a normal career tracejtory.

The RAPTOR data only goes back to 77'. According to that MJ is GOAT--but Chris Paul second. Manu is better than Barkley, Drexler. Draymond better than Duncan. Hakeem is near the bottom and Kobe at the bottom (probably a list of the top 20).

[DoctorP]

I voted other because the GOAT is Baphomet

https://media2.giphy.com/media/xl5QdxfNonh3q/giphy.gif

[Turbo Slayer]

.
NBA.com... 94% of Lebron's shots outside of 10 feet are either "open" (4-6 feet from closest defender) or "wide open" (6+ feet), compared to 77.1% (https://stats.nba.com/player/201935/shots-dash/) for Harden, 82.0% (https://stats.nba.com/player/203078/shots-dash/) for Bradley Beal, 77.8% (https://stats.nba.com/player/202695/shots-dash/) for Kawhi, and 66.6% (https://stats.nba.com/player/201142/shots-dash/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) for KDGoat (in 2019).

The stats show that Lebron avoids contested jumpers, and instead defers many of the contested shot possessions to teammates.

This is a problem because the best player is supposed to take the contested shots, and guys that are hitting contested shots require doubles - these are things the best player is supposed do - take the contested shot possessions and start commanding doubles by making those contested shots (and usually juicing the whole team).

By shirking his duties of taking contested shots, Lebron never informs the defense "I'M TAKING OVER AND IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW WELL MY MAN GUARDS ME"

So again, he doesn't command double-teams or significant adjustment in general, allowing coaches like Stan Van Gundy to stay at home/rest on defense and lock down teammates - his weak-shooting/long dribbles simply don't shift defenses or wear down teams like the ball movement/better-shooting stars he faces, so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively.. bron-ball's weak-shooting, long dribbles loses the attrition battle on the championship level.

it looks like lebron's teams aren't playing defense, but it's them losing the attrition battle.. it's like an MMA fight - the best defense is a good offense and the losing fighter must mount sufficient OFFENSE or the ref will stop it (14' Finals was a tapout - heat couldn't fight fire with fire/blunt the Spurs attack/wear them down)

Hey maybe consider that teams don't double team LeBron because he can see the whole damn court/is a dangerous passer?

[DoctorP]

LL COol J started all of this GOAT nonsense

https://i1.cdn.hhv.de/catalog/shop_detail_zoom/00408/408106.jpg

[Naero]

Jordan (1A) and Kareem (1B) are both in my GOAT tier, but I voted for KAJ here knowing how much he usually ends up snubbed in these polls.

[trada7029]

Hey maybe consider that teams don't double team LeBron because he can see the whole damn court/is a dangerous passer?
Doubling creates a 4-on-3 disadvantage off-the-ball regardless of who is doubled..

Lebron is simply not a deadly enough iso player, so coaches prefer to let him dribble and have a passive jumper, rather than double and face ball movement.. otoh, coaches prefer to face ball movement and open shots from Fisher/Horry rather than let Kobe get going - Kobe was that deadly - a completely different dimension... Bruh - lebron won't even TAKE contested jumpers

[Axe]

Brian Scalabrine aka White Mamba.

[Run DLC]

Kevin Durant is the GOAT

[Turbo Slayer]

Doubling creates a 4-on-3 disadvantage off-the-ball regardless of who is doubled..

Lebron is simply not a deadly enough iso player, so coaches prefer to let him dribble and have a passive jumper, rather than double and face ball movement.. otoh, coaches prefer to face ball movement and open shots from Fisher/Horry rather than let Kobe get going - Kobe was that deadly - a completely different dimension... Bruh - lebron won't even TAKE contested jumpers


Lebron is simply not a deadly enough iso player In the 2016-17 Playoffs, LeBron has a PPP of 1.17 in isolation. To put this into perspective, he was more efficient than Kyrie Irving(1.10), James Harden(1.05), Kevin Durant(1.16), and John Wall(1.05) in the 2017 Playoffs. He was the 4th player in the 2017 Playoffs to attempt more isolation plays other than Westbrook, Irving, and Paul George.

LeBron is in fact one of the elite iso players in the league. LeBron is deadly enough.


coaches prefer to let him dribble and have a passive jumper, rather than double and face ball movement.

LeBron who ranks 5th alltime in playoffs PPG and #1 in total playoffs points have been double teamed at some point. Also a team's elite defenders can be forced into a less desirable defensive position because LeBron can see the entire floor and pass out the double team immediately to kick it out to a capable 3 point shooter. Players that are good at scoring and passing the ball are the best offensive players for this reason.


Bruh - lebron won't even TAKE contested jumpers You act like this is a knock on LeBron. Newsflash: it isn't. It shows that LeBron knows how to take a timely and efficient shot when needed for the offense.

[Roundball_Rock]

So thus far:

1) Jordan 50%
2) LeBron 23%
3) Kareem 11%
4) Kobe 8%
5) Bird/Other 4%

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Michael Jordan has the best combination of rings/stats/accolades/records/impact so he's the undisputed GOAT.Eyetest he had no weakness to his game,in the 80s he had a jumpshot but improved on it even more in the 90s to the point where he could score without dominating the ball,he was elite in man to man and help defense.In 89 he proved he could do what LeBronsexuals praise LeBron for doing all his career,playing the point.He averaged 32/8/8 while playing point guard.Jordan dominated his own era,you can't say the same thing for any other all-time great when we factor in ring/stats/accolades.

-6 rings as the best player
-5 mvps
-6 finals mvps
-10 scoring titles
-1 DPOY
-9 all defensive 1st teams
-career ppg leader regular season (30.12)
-career ppg leader playoffs (33.45)
-career ppg finals (33.60)
-averaged 41 ppg in 93 finals

[Roundball_Rock]

What is with all these MJ accounts popping up with low post counts? How many accounts does 3ball have?

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

What is with all these MJ accounts popping up with low post counts? How many accounts does 3ball have?

I can promise you right now that I am not 3Ball,a guy on here claimed I was LAL.You guys can't be automatically assuming this guy is that guy just because they're talking about a certain player.But at the same time it's stupid,we all came here to talk about sports,who gives a damn if someone came on here with an alt.It's petty shit.

[Axe]

What is with all these MJ accounts popping up with low post counts? How many accounts does 3ball have?
Why MJ only? Shouldn't you be asking the same question as well towards those who have LBJ accounts with similarly low post counts?

[Roundball_Rock]

Why MJ only? Shouldn't you be asking the same question as well towards those who have LBJ accounts with similarly low post counts?

1) I am not in as many LeBron related threads so I can't speak to them due to that 2) I suspect a lot of these are 3ball alts. Is there a LeBron version of 3ball?

[Axe]

1) I am not in as many LeBron related threads so I can't speak to them due to that 2) I suspect a lot of these are 3ball alts. Is there a LeBron version of 3ball?
Lmao forget about the dude. Why the hell are you letting him ruin your day? You can just 'ignore' him even his very own alts.

[Roundball_Rock]

Lmao forget about the dude. Why the hell are you letting him ruin your day? You can just 'ignore' him even his very own alts.

I usually ignore him but he can be amusing at times with his nonsense. :lol

[AlternativeAcc.]

So if you take away the Jordan alts, it's fairly even

and this is a pro Jordan/boomer forum so... pretty eye opening to see the shift from Jordan being unanimous GOAT (2010) to LeBron out ranking him just 10 years later

[Axe]

So if you take away the Jordan alts, it's fairly even

and this is a pro Jordan/boomer forum so... pretty eye opening to see the shift from Jordan being unanimous GOAT (2010) to LeBron out ranking him just 10 years later
Rofl you've got to be kidding me. You can't just assume these players' popularity alone based on the opinion of people in this board. Because outside of this, there are thousands to millions of basketball fans around the world, young or old.

[Roundball_Rock]

and this is a pro Jordan/boomer forum so... pretty eye opening to see the shift from Jordan being unanimous GOAT (2010) to LeBron out ranking him just 10 years later

That was striking to me as well. A poll 10 years ago would have Jordan at 80-90% but right now he is at 48%. LeBron has the second largest bloc but even he is only at 26%, so it can'y be attributed all to him since you have 26% who are Kareem/Kobe/other. Maybe this decline is what causes MJ stans to be insecure.


You can't just assume these players' popularity alone based on the opinion of people in this board. Because outside of this, there are thousands to millions of basketball fans around the world, young or old.

I've seen polls on Facebook on sports pages that will show the same basic trend: Jordan at 55-60%, LeBron at 30-35%. The people here are basketball diehards so the non-MJ/LeBron vote is higher here but the trend in Jordan losing ground is real. LeBron is the biggest gainer but Kareem has come out of nowhere to get around 10%.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Rofl you've got to be kidding me. You can't just assume these players' popularity alone based on the opinion of people in this board. Because outside of this, there are thousands to millions of basketball fans around the world, young or old.

Yeah but casuals don't really matter as much as hardcore bball fans. The people on here know much much more than Kyle, or Timmy, or Ruiz etc. Take away the Jordan alts and the Kobe trolls and we've got LeBron and Jordan at the top, pretty much even

I think it's a pretty good reflection of where the GOAT debate stands at the moment. One more ring for LeBron and he becomes unanimous GOAT is the takeaway here

[Roundball_Rock]

I think it's a pretty good reflection of where the GOAT debate stands at the moment. One more ring for LeBron and he becomes unanimous GOAT is the takeaway here

There is a generational component to all this. I suspect LeBron may become the consensus GOAT of his generation. Jordan will be very difficult for LeBron to surpass overall any time soon, though. Putting aside the substance of the comparison to focus on public opinion, Jordan has been the most marketed athlete ever. People who grew up watching him or were young adults when he played are hooked on MJ. These also happen to be the generations dominating the media, which is why you see the media pushing a long retired player so hard. The power of nostalgia and propaganda is too strong for MJ to just fadeaway any time soon.

I think what may happen is when the LeBron era generation takes over the media, you have a third generation coming who have no bias towards either MJ or LeBron, there may be a push to LeBron as 1) the media becomes pro-LeBron 2) MJ loses the benefit of nostalgia. MJ is the incumbent so he is the one who is likely to lose ground over time. Eventually it will become about resumes and that is why you have seen Kareem rise to the top of the "old era" group. Jordan is vulnerable in that LeBron's biggest edge over him will be career stats, longevity. So if a person is researching the two in 2050 without any bias, they may very well find LeBron more impressive. Kareem, Wilt, Russell may gain some traction then too. Of course there likely will be a newer candidate in the mix too by then (Giannis).

I personally think MJ is better and that will be another factor aiding him long term but there are potential icebergs around the SS. MJGOAT.

[Axe]

Yeah but casuals don't really matter as much as hardcore bball fans. The people on here know much much more than Kyle, or Timmy, or Ruiz etc. Take away the Jordan alts and the Kobe trolls and we've got LeBron and Jordan at the top, pretty much even

I think it's a pretty good reflection of where the GOAT debate stands at the moment. One more ring for LeBron and he becomes unanimous GOAT is the takeaway here
Tbh, they're all great or goat in their own, unique ways and since they're all humans, they have their own shortcomings too, obviously. But you don't have to be a dickrider just to make yourself feel good on who'd you think is the goat, whether it's mj, kobe, lbj or anyone else. The crystal clear divisiveness and crab mentality is actually the reason why a lot of trolls exist in the boards nowadays.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

I think it's a pretty good reflection of where the GOAT debate stands at the moment. One more ring for LeBron and he becomes unanimous GOAT is the takeaway here

That would mean he'd have only 4 championships,it really doesn't matter anyway because he has too many losses in the finals.Jerry West got to the finals 9 times but lost in 8 of them.It's pretty embarrassing that a Harden led Houston Rockets team managed to take the Warriors to 7 games in 2018 playoffs yet LeBron's Cavs got swept in the finals 4-0.Also what was stopping LeBron from winning in 2011 and 2014 finals?

[LAL]

There is a generational component to all this. I suspect LeBron may become the consensus GOAT of his generation. Jordan will be very difficult for LeBron to surpass overall any time soon, though. Putting aside the substance of the comparison to focus on public opinion, Jordan has been the most marketed athlete ever. People who grew up watching him or were young adults when he played are hooked on MJ. These also happen to be the generations dominating the media, which is why you see the media pushing a long retired player so hard. The power of nostalgia and propaganda is too strong for MJ to just fadeaway any time soon.

I think what may happen is when the LeBron era generation takes over the media, you have a third generation coming who have no bias towards either MJ or LeBron, there may be a push to LeBron as 1) the media becomes pro-LeBron 2) MJ loses the benefit of nostalgia. MJ is the incumbent so he is the one who is likely to lose ground over time. Eventually it will become about resumes and that is why you have seen Kareem rise to the top of the "old era" group. Jordan is vulnerable in that LeBron's biggest edge over him will be career stats, longevity. So if a person is researching the two in 2050 without any bias, they may very well find LeBron more impressive. Kareem, Wilt, Russell may gain some traction then too. Of course there likely will be a newer candidate in the mix too by then (Giannis).

I personally think MJ is better and that will be another factor aiding him long term but there are potential icebergs around the SS. MJGOAT.

:oldlol:
All those pippen arguments and shit, i would've agreed on some points you made about pippen but i knew it wasn't coming from the right place lol.
Just another bronstan thirsty for that number one spot

[RRR3]

That would mean he'd have only 4 championships,it really doesn't matter anyway because he has too many losses in the finals.Jerry West got to the finals 9 times but lost in 8 of them.It's pretty embarrassing that a Harden led Houston Rockets team managed to take the Warriors to 7 games in 2018 playoffs yet LeBron's Cavs got swept in the finals 4-0.Also what was stopping LeBron from winning in 2011 and 2014 finals?
I've seen better analysis from dogs.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

I've seen better analysis from dogs.

You can't refute any of what I just said,LeBron isn't the GOAT.All you guys got is excuses.

[RRR3]

You can't refute any of what I just said,LeBron isn't the GOAT.All you guys got is excuses.
I don't think LeBron is the GOAT. Nice strawman. I can refute your post, but I suspect you're either 3ball or some other LeBron hater's alt and it's not worth the effort.

[AlternativeAcc.]

That would mean he'd have only 4 championships,it really doesn't matter anyway because he has too many losses in the finals.Jerry West got to the finals 9 times but lost in 8 of them.It's pretty embarrassing that a Harden led Houston Rockets team managed to take the Warriors to 7 games in 2018 playoffs yet LeBron's Cavs got swept in the finals 4-0.Also what was stopping LeBron from winning in 2011 and 2014 finals?
Some irrational hatred being spewed right now ladies and gentlemen... :oldlol:

This is one of those Jordan alts I've been talking about.

LeBron has 9 conference titles to Jordan's 6... I'm not gonna base my entire argument off that though. LeBron won much more than Jordan, it's why LeBron owns practically every post-season record. But winning isn't everything, it's the intangibles and eye test that separates LeBron from that bald dude with the baggy jeans.

[Roundball_Rock]

I don't think LeBron is the GOAT. Nice strawman.

If you don't worship MJ you automatically must have LeBron as GOAT. :lol

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

I don't think LeBron is the GOAT. Nice strawman.If you don't think LeBron is the GOAT then what the hell are you doing right now?


I can refute your post, but I suspect you're either 3ball or some other LeBron hater's alt and it's not worth the effort.Another guy said I was LAL now I'm being suspected of being 3Ball,you guys are something else on here,I already said in another thread that my other account on here was named AnimeSportsGuy but I guess 3Ball likes anime right?Whether if I'm any of those guys or not really doesn't matter because you still can't refute my argument,all you can come up with is excuses for LeBron folding in the finals.

Some irrational hatred being spewed right now ladies and gentlemen... :oldlol
Stating facts is irrational hatred?

This is one of those Jordan alts I've been talking about.
Show me proof that I'm one of those "Jordan alts"....oh wait you can't.


LeBron has 9 conference titles to Jordan's 6... I'm not gonna base my entire argument off that though.LeBron won much more than Jordan
3 is not greater than 6,this is basic math.


it's why LeBron owns practically every post-season record.
So LeBron is the career playoffs ppg leader and averaged 40+ in a finals series?Had no idea bro.


But winning isn't everything,
Winning is always the #1 goal in sports,c'mon man.


it's the intangibles and eye test that separates LeBron from that bald dude with the baggy jeans.
So LeBron is a better scorer,shooter and defender than Jordan,got it.

[Axe]

Some irrational hatred being spewed right now ladies and gentlemen... :oldlol:

This is one of those Jordan alts I've been talking about.

LeBron has 9 conference titles to Jordan's 6... I'm not gonna base my entire argument off that though. LeBron won much more than Jordan, it's why LeBron owns practically every post-season record. But winning isn't everything, it's the intangibles and eye test that separates LeBron from that bald dude with the baggy jeans.
Damn, the animosity towards jordan is so surreal. Whatever did the nikka do to make your life so miserable. :facepalm

[LostCause]

Honestly, everyone listed has a good argument for GOAT

Some would disagree but I also think Magic/Larry do as well, largely because of how dominant and successful they were despite their careers both being cut so drastically. Magic retiring at 31 due to HIV and Bird injuring his back when he was 28 then getting surgery on BOTH achilles again at 31. Both were 3x MVPs, Magic a 5x champion and Bird a 3x champ at that point in their careers. You can do a what-if for anyone, but folks who were fans of the game during the periods they dominated won't undersell them in a GOAT debate because they played at that level

Bird I think gets massively underrated these days. With memes talking about how he was a part time electrician and others highlighting how he wouldn't be effective since he wasn't crazy athletic (Which ignores similarly unathletic players who excel today)

[AlternativeAcc.]

Damn, the animosity towards jordan is so surreal. Whatever did the nikka do to make your life so miserable. :facepalm
:lol

you're a funny little guy Axe. I like you. Back in my heyday I would've bullied you into nonexistence, but I ain't about that life anymore lol.

Jordan didn't have the impact LeBron has or the all-around game... Jordan is just too one-dimensional for my taste

His team won 60 games without him.. i'm sorry but that ruins his legacy. He got replaced by Pete Myers and they won 60. Cavs won 19 when LeBron left for LA

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Jordan didn't have the impact LeBron has or the all-around game... Jordan is just too one-dimensional for my taste
6/6 & 32/8/8

[AlternativeAcc.]

LeBron only needs 13 more post season wins to surpass Tim Duncan for most all-time for a star

And LeBron has always been the undisputed 1st option on his team whereas Duncan got overshadowed for many post-season runs

LeBron is by far the biggest winner in NBA history and the numbers back it up. The data doesn't lie!

[brownmamba00]

:lol

you're a funny little guy Axe. I like you. Back in my heyday I would've bullied you into nonexistence, but I ain't about that life anymore lol.

Jordan didn't have the impact LeBron has or the all-around game... Jordan is just too one-dimensional for my taste

His team won 60 games without him.. i'm sorry but that ruins his legacy. He got replaced by Pete Myers and they won 60. Cavs won 19 when LeBron left for LA

Internet bully:oldlol

Fukkin retard

[AlternativeAcc.]

6/6 & 32/8/8

No Pip no playoff series win

[Axe]

:lol

you're a funny little guy Axe. I like you. Back in my heyday I would've bullied you into nonexistence, but I ain't about that life anymore lol.
Whoa... better be careful with your choice of words, tough guy. 'Cuz i used to be a badass pugilist irl when i was much younger lmao. You wouldn't wish to go back home with a swollen eye or broken teeth. 😂


Jordan didn't have the impact LeBron has or the all-around game... Jordan is just too one-dimensional for my taste
Kewl story.


His team won 60 games without him.. i'm sorry but that ruins his legacy. He got replaced by Pete Myers and they won 60. Cavs won 19 when LeBron left for LA
You mean the '10-11 season where d-rose led the bulls to 62 wins? Sure but that only happened once, mind you.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

LeBron is by far the biggest winner in NBA history and the numbers back it up. The data doesn't lie!

11 >>> 3

5 >>> 3

6 >>>> 3

7 >>>> 3

[AlternativeAcc.]

11 >>> 3

5 >>> 3

6 >>>> 3

7 >>>> 3

Scottie Pippen has more playoff wins than Jordan

No pip no series win

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

No Pip no playoff series win

What was Pippen when he first came into the NBA?

Also,https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199006030DET.html

[AlternativeAcc.]

Whoa... better be careful with your choice of words, tough guy. 'Cuz i used to be a badass pugilist irl when i was much younger lmao. You wouldn't wish to go back home with a swollen eye or broken teeth. ��
.

Whoa chill out man I was just joshin' around

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Scottie Pippen has more playoff wins than Jordan

No pip no series win

So Scottie is the biggest winner in NBA history

[Axe]

Whoa chill out man I was just joshin' around
Chill ikr. I was just messin' too.

[AlternativeAcc.]

So Scottie is the biggest winner in NBA history
He's up there for sure. Wouldn't necessarily say he's the biggest. Certainly bigger than Jordan in many ways. But LeBron has all the post-season records and will soon have the most wins in playoff history. I know, it's hard to argue against that. I put you in a very, very tough situation here.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

He's up there for sure. Wouldn't necessarily say he's the biggest. Certainly bigger than Jordan in many ways. But LeBron has all the post-season records and will soon have the most wins in playoff history. I know, it's hard to argue against that. I put you in a very, very tough situation here.

Name those records

[Roundball_Rock]

What was Pippen when he first came into the NBA?

The #5 pick, same as Barkley and Wade.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

The #5 pick, same as Barkley and Wade.
While being a single digit scorer off the bench in his first season.Also Lonzo Ball is a #2 pick but look at him now.

[Axe]

While being a single digit scorer off the bench in his first season.Also Lonzo Ball is a #2 pick but look at him now.
What about darko milicic who went #2 in what's called to be the best nba draft 17 years ago.

[Roundball_Rock]

While being a single digit scorer off the bench in his first season.Also Lonzo Ball is a #2 pick but look at him now.

Cool story.

Drexler as a rookie: 8/3/2
Stockton: 6/5/1
Payton: 7/3/6
Harden: 10/3/2
Kawhi: 8/5/1
McHale: 10/4/1
Butler: 3/1/0

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Cool story.

Drexler as a rookie: 8/3/2
Stockton: 6/5/1
Payton: 7/3/6
Harden: 10/3/2
Kawhi: 8/5/1
McHale: 10/4/1
Butler: 3/1/0

Difference is they improved significantly while Lonzo stayed the same.

Also can we really say those players got better because of someone else like with Scottie?

[Roundball_Rock]

Nope. Pippen is the only player in history to receive coaching or to work with teammates. Popovich was twiddling his thumbs with Kawhi.

[Lion's pride]

This is my FIRST post, and I will say what I always say. there is no GOAT.
There are too many different ways to be a All-time great.

In seniority order I break it down to two categories.

The Bigs Russell-Wilt-KAJ-Hakeem-Shaq

The perimeter greats - Bird-Magic-Jordan-Kobe-Lebron

THERE is no way anyone can convince me one player was more "impactful to winning" factually. It is all hypothetical and theoretical. It's like someone has to be called a GOAT.

[Duncan21formvp]

Why is Duncan not an option?

[Roundball_Rock]

Why is Duncan not an option?

I never see anyone advocate for him as GOAT. I thought about him and Oscar but figured "other" would capture them.

Didn't Duncan lead a team to a bronze medal BTW? ;)

[Monta Ellis MVP]

I used to think LeBron was the GOAT because people at my work told me about how everyone sucked at basketball in the 90’s. Now I’m not sure. I think LeBron is still the GOAT.

[999Guy]

Probably LeBron on a literal level( all these damn years of playing at the highest level in any given year and being a playoff demon).

I think Jordan had the best 5/6 year run ever in his athletic prime from 88-93.. But I’m not all that impressed with the stiff jumper shooter he became in the most diluted, least talented stretch in NBA history from 96-99. And obviously retirement hurts him.

Would’ve love to have seen him face Hakeem in 94, who was better than him in 1993 in m opinion.

[DoctorP]

ive seen lebron fail too many times to call him the goat.

hes a great one, yes but Jordan was the illest everrrrrrrrrr

[Duncan21formvp]

I never see anyone advocate for him as GOAT. I thought about him and Oscar but figured "other" would capture them.

Didn't Duncan lead a team to a bronze medal BTW? ;)

No Lebron did twice. Duncan wasn't born in the 50 states. Duncan has the most titles and finals mvp's combined for players in his era.

[Roundball_Rock]

No Lebron did twice. Duncan wasn't born in the 50 states. Duncan has the most titles and finals mvp's combined for players in his era.

Duncan was the best player on the 2004 team, no?

[Duncan21formvp]

Duncan was the best player on the 2004 team, no?

Was he born in the United States? Hakeem wasn't either but played on the 1996 team.

[Axe]

Probably LeBron on a literal level( all these damn years of playing at the highest level in any given year and being a playoff demon).

I think Jordan had the best 5/6 year run ever in his athletic prime from 88-93.. But I’m not all that impressed with the stiff jumper shooter he became in the most diluted, least talented stretch in NBA history from 96-99. And obviously retirement hurts him.

Would’ve love to have seen him face Hakeem in 94, who was better than him in 1993 in m opinion.
Now whose dup is this? 😗

[jstern]

This one is easy, Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Probably LeBron on a literal level( all these damn years of playing at the highest level in any given year and being a playoff demon).
Benefiting on playing in a weaker conference than Kobe's in the west,losing in the finals despite having a superteam.LeBron played at a high level but it wasn't on the level of Jordan from 86-98.


I think Jordan had the best 5/6 year run ever in his athletic prime from 88-93.. But I’m not all that impressed with the stiff jumper shooter he became in the most diluted, least talented stretch in NBA history from 96-99. And obviously retirement hurts him.
He already had a jumpshot before 96 and what you mean least talented stretch?


Would’ve love to have seen him face Hakeem in 94,who was better than him in 1993 in m opinion.
How exactly was Hakeem better than Mike?

[Roundball_Rock]

Was he born in the United States? Hakeem wasn't either but played on the 1996 team.

Duncan was born in the United States. Why is that even relevant? He was on the 2004 team and was clearly the best player. He escapes any blame for it but a 19 year old riding the bench is charged with the loss.

[Run DLC]

Kevin Durant is the GOAT

[Euroleague]

Kareem

[Euroleague]

No Lebron did twice. Duncan wasn't born in the 50 states. Duncan has the most titles and finals mvp's combined for players in his era.

Duncan was born in the US Virgin Islands. It's a part of the USA. If you are born there, you are automatically a US citizen, as it's part of the USA. If you are from the US Virgin Islands, you can play for their national team, or Team USA, whichever one you want. Duncan actually played for both. He was on the 2004 USA Olympics team that got a bronze medal.

[Euroleague]

Duncan was born in the United States. Why is that even relevant? He was on the 2004 team and was clearly the best player. He escapes any blame for it but a 19 year old riding the bench is charged with the loss.

What was LeBron's excuse for the bronze medal in 2006?

Joe Johnson
Kirk Hinrich
LeBron James
Antawn Jamison
Shane Battier
Dwyane Wade
Chris Paul
Chris Bosh
Dwight Howard
Brad Miller
Elton Brand
Carmelo Anthony

Head coach: Mike Krzyzewski

That is worse than Duncan getting the bronze in 2004, considering numerous other teams at that Olympics had better rosters. There is no excuse for Team USA's bronze in 2006 at the FIBA World Cup.

[trada7029]

.
"the athletes are better now" argument is the telltale sign that lebron fans have lost the argument

They're no longer arguing the stats because they lost that one - MJ is #1 in BPM, PER, WS/48 and PPG.. he also has all the top vorp seasons

They're no longer arguing things like 8 straight conference finals or making the 07' Finals because these were easily shattered as well.. it took a juggernaut to win the 80's East, not weak teams like the 07' Cavs, 09' Magic, 01' Sixers or 03' Nets... So lebron formed a strong team in a conference that weak teams were rountinely winning, hence the conference finals win streak.

And they're no longer arguing things like comp because it's only fair that Lebron's power move to seize advantage in 2011 was countered by someone (Durant) responding in kind.. More importantly, the only teams with 3 perennial all-star were the Heat/Spurs and Cavs/Warriors - the top-heavy league (big fish in small pond) resulted in higher net ratings for lebron's comp as they demolished all the teams that didn't have a Big 3...

Ultimately, lebron had his own super-teams and rarely faced an actual talent deficit - in a top-heavy league with only 2 stacked teams/golden tickets, one of the golden tickets can't complain about "comp"... Otoh, previous eras were a 2-star format (2020 style), so more teams were Finals-caliber and the comp/parity was much better and tougher...

Finally, Kawhi and both flirted with 70 wins, but lebron couldn't even win 60 with prime Kyrie - why couldn't lebron win 67+ like Curry and Kawhi did? If Lebron/Kyrie were a juggernaut like they were supposed to be, they wouldn't be underdogs even after KD joined the Warriors... But instead they were weak 50-win underdog and appeared to have no chance... And one more thing - lebron had FAR more offensive help than MJ, yet he had much worse offenses - this has nothing to do with "comp" - MJ's style was just superior and resulted in better teams.

So again, with weak stuff like the 8 straight Finals and "comp" arguments exposed, lebron fans must resort to the weaker athlete argument - it's a sign that they lost every other argument

[Roundball_Rock]

What was LeBron's excuse for the bronze medal in 2006?

Joe Johnson
Kirk Hinrich
LeBron James
Antawn Jamison
Shane Battier
Dwyane Wade
Chris Paul
Chris Bosh
Dwight Howard
Brad Miller
Elton Brand
Carmelo Anthony

Head coach: Mike Krzyzewski

That is worse than Duncan getting the bronze in 2004, considering numerous other teams at that Olympics had better rosters. There is no excuse for Team USA's bronze in 2006 at the FIBA World Cup.

He was 21 but a MVP level player by then so he deserves some blame for that. Wade, Paul who were older get a pass, though?

[nizroc]

.
"the athletes are better now" argument is the telltale sign that lebron fans have lost the argument

They're no longer arguing the stats because they lost that one - MJ is #1 in BPM, PER, WS/48 and PPG.. he also has all the top vorp seasons

They're no longer arguing things like 8 straight conference finals or making the 07' Finals because these were easily shattered as well.. it took a juggernaut to win the 80's East, not weak teams like the 07' Cavs, 09' Magic, 01' Sixers or 03' Nets... So lebron formed a strong team in a conference that weak teams were rountinely winning, hence the conference finals win streak.

And they're no longer arguing things like comp because it's only fair that Lebron's power move to seize advantage in 2011 was countered by someone (Durant) responding in kind.. More importantly, the only teams with 3 perennial all-star were the Heat/Spurs and Cavs/Warriors - the top-heavy league (big fish in small pond) resulted in higher net ratings for lebron's comp as they demolished all the teams that didn't have a Big 3...

Ultimately, lebron had his own super-teams and rarely faced an actual talent deficit - in a top-heavy league with only 2 stacked teams/golden tickets, one of the golden tickets can't complain about "comp"... Otoh, previous eras were a 2-star format (2020 style), so more teams were Finals-caliber and the comp/parity was much better and tougher...

Finally, Kawhi and both flirted with 70 wins, but lebron couldn't even win 60 with prime Kyrie - why couldn't lebron win 67+ like Curry and Kawhi did? If Lebron/Kyrie were a juggernaut like they were supposed to be, they wouldn't be underdogs even after KD joined the Warriors... But instead they were weak 50-win underdog and appeared to have no chance... And one more thing - lebron had FAR more offensive help than MJ, yet he had much worse offenses - this has nothing to do with "comp" - MJ's style was just superior and resulted in better teams.

So again, with weak stuff like the 8 straight Finals and "comp" arguments exposed, lebron fans must resort to the weaker athlete argument - it's a sign that they lost every other argument


Good points. The “plumbers and janitors” argument is one of the most pathetic things ever trotted out.

[Axe]

Good points. The “plumbers and janitors” argument is one of the most pathetic things ever trotted out.
You've quoted 3ball lol

[AlternativeAcc.]

You've quoted 3ball lol

He quoted himself and has voted for Jordan on 10+ different accounts. Literally.

[Axe]

He quoted himself and has voted for Jordan on 10+ different accounts. Literally.
Thank you, captain obvious. :rolleyes:

[999Guy]

Benefiting on playing in a weaker conference than Kobe's in the west,losing in the finals despite having a superteam.LeBron played at a high level but it wasn't on the level of Jordan from 86-98.

He already had a jumpshot before 96 and what you mean least talented stretch?

How exactly was Hakeem better than Mike?

What do I mean least talented? Drexler, Miller, Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Stockton, Ewing all left their athletic primes by the mid-90’s let alone lower level studs like Price, KJ, and Porter. On top of that there was an expansion which diluted league talent and allowed Chicago, Utah, and Seattle to rack up a lot more wins than they should’ve and would’ve if everything was more dense like in the past. This is obvious.

Hakeem was just flat out better as a basketball player than 93 Jordan. Jordan’s athleticism clearly took a drop off and so did his motor. His finishing was funky and he took a lot of defensive possessions off. Though Pippen was actually more spent than him but w/e.


Hakeem otoh, finally got a good coach still had 90% of his natural athleticism, bulked up, polished his post game in 92’s down time during summer, and absolutely destroyed everything in sight. If not for bad officiating against Seattle, Hakeem probably wins over EVERYONE as he did the two years after.

93 Jordan was pretty damn close to 96. Not the monster he was athletically in 90 and 91 at all.

And really as a general principle, big men who are elite defenders tilt basketball games much more than any guard. Hakeem was at the highest level of defense with Dike and Robinson, and led elite playoff offenses with no star talent. He was the best player in the world as soon as his situation stabilized.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

What do I mean least talented? Drexler, Miller, Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Stockton, Ewing all left their athletic primes by the mid-90Â’s let alone lower level studs like Price, KJ, and Porter. On top of that there was an expansion which diluted league talent and allowed Chicago, Utah, and Seattle to rack up a lot more wins than they shouldÂ’ve and wouldÂ’ve if everything was more dense like in the past. This is obvious.So because of this that means Jordan got an easy path to the finals than LeBron did in his era?


Hakeem was just flat out better as a basketball player than 93 Jordan. JordanÂ’s athleticism clearly took a drop off and so did his motor. His finishing was funky and he took a lot of defensive possessions off. Though Pippen was actually more spent than him but w/e.
Why wasn't Hakeem better than Jordan before 93 if he's "flat out better"?Hakeem had a short run when Jordan retired,after Jordan came back Hakeem was never the same,he had Drexler and Barkley in 96 yet still couldn't get to the finals.Jordan losing some of his athleticism doesn't equate to Hakeem being better,Hakeem can score in the post but so can Jordan,if that doesn't work then he can just rely on his jumpshot like he did against the 92 Knicks when they kept him from getting to the basket.Hakeem can't shoot like Jordan can,he also isn't as good of a freethrow shooter either,Jordan was just a flat out better scorer and shooter.(Averaged 41 pts against Barkley's Suns in 93 Finals)



Hakeem otoh, finally got a good coach still had 90% of his natural athleticism, bulked up, polished his post game in 92Â’s down time during summer, and absolutely destroyed everything in sight. If not for bad officiating against Seattle, Hakeem probably wins over EVERYONE as he did the two years after.
He still wouldn't be able to stop Jordan,also if he doesn't retire in 93 he'd still have Scottie Pippen who was in his prime at this point,Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong who both improved from the previous season.Along with acquiring Toni Kukoc and Steve Kerr for bench help.



And really as a general principle, big men who are elite defenders tilt basketball games much more than any guard.Hakeem was at the highest level of defense with Dike and Robinson.He was the best player in the world as soon as his situation stabilized.
Only thing is big men can't defend in the perimeter like a Jordan,Pippen and Payton can.


and led elite playoff offenses with no star talent.
I honestly think that would hurt him if he were to face 94 bulls in the finals w/Jordan

[SATAN]

Kevin Durant is the GOAT

Oh hey, Kevin :cheers:

[AlternativeAcc.]

Thank you, captain obvious. :rolleyes:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MealyLittleAdamsstaghornedbeetle-size_restricted.gif

[Roundball_Rock]

Oh hey, Kevin :cheers:

:lol

[Smoke117]

Kareem. GOAT college player by basically an infinite percent, all time leading NBA scorer, 6 time MVP, 5 time NBA championship. The GOAT.

[dbugz]

Just like what the pro said, MJ is the goat.

Here in insidehoops, this isn't even close again. :oldlol:

[Overdrive]

Board full of Lebron trolls. Still not GOAT. Hmm.

[Mr Feeny]

Jordan and I dont think 2nd place is that close but I have Lebron at 2nd followed by a huge drop off.
Bird, Shaq, Kareem can be in any order after that.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Jordan and I dont think 2nd place is that close but I have Lebron at 2nd followed by a huge drop off.
Bird, Shaq, Kareem can be in any order after that.

Why do you have LeBron over Bird?

[SATAN]

He's a better player most likely...

[Rysio]

Jordan for career and stats but no one has impressed me more when watching them play like Kobe.

[Mr Feeny]

Why do you have LeBron over Bird?

Dont you think he's a better player, overall?

He had a higher peak, both in terms of individual dominance and team impact. He has won as many titles while being the top performer for his team each time. He has more Mvps and FMVPs.

Why would you have Bird ahead of him?

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Dont you think he's a better player, overall?

He had a higher peak, both in terms of individual dominance and team impact. He has won as many titles while being the top performer for his team each time. He has more Mvps and FMVPs.

Why would you have Bird ahead of him?

Because he's an overall better player and more skilled than LeBron.He could get his without having to dominate the ball all the time,LeBron always need the ball in his hands.They're both tied for championships but LeBron took an easier path to get those 3 rings.He had the famous meltdown in 2011 finals and gave up in 2014 finals.Got Draymond suspended in 2016 finals and then faked a hand injury in 2018 finals.

Honestly if I were to pick between the two to build a team around to win championships I'm going with Bird,the guy could score with the best of them,great team player,will play defense and had the killer in him like Mike and Kobe.LeBron lacks these qualities and plus if things don't go his way he's going to either try and recruit other superstars or go to a different organization.

[Lebron23]

Because he's an overall better player and more skilled than LeBron.He could get his without having to dominate the ball all the time,LeBron always need the ball in his hands.They're both tied for championships but LeBron took an easier path to get those 3 rings.He had the famous meltdown in 2011 finals and gave up in 2014 finals.Got Draymond suspended in 2016 finals and then faked a hand injury in 2018 finals.

Honestly if I were to pick between the two to build a team around to win championships I'm going with Bird,the guy could score with the best of them,great team player,will play defense and had the killer in him like Mike and Kobe.LeBron lacks these qualities and plus if things don't go his way he's going to either try and recruit other superstars or go to a different organization.

This might be the worsts posts in the history of this forum. You won't even give credit to LeBron if he wins his fourth title. Bird was very lucky he was drafted by the Boston Celtics, and surrounded him with better talents than LeBron. Lebron is a better regular season, finals performer and playoffs performer than Bird. And at his peak a better defensive player than Bird.

[aj1987]

Because he's an overall better player and more skilled than LeBron.
Yeah, just no. LeBron is a better overall player than Bird. LeBron is a significantly better defender as well. Not even close when it comes to defense.


He could get his without having to dominate the ball all the time,LeBron always need the ball in his hands.
You do know that Irving had a higher time of possession than LeBron in the '16 PO's, right? Heck in '14, LeBron had only 2 minutes more TOP than a washed up and injured Wade in the PO's. This is with LeBron playing more minutes than both Wade and Irving.


They're both tied for championships but LeBron took an easier path to get those 3 rings.
LeBron has more MVP's, FMVP's, All-Def, All-NBA, scoring titles, etc.. Also, easier path? Do you know how loaded those Celtic teams were? Obviously not, since you're probably an autistic 12 year old.



He had the famous meltdown in 2011 finals
Bird had back to back 8 point games in '81 Finals. Followed that up with a 12 point game in G5. Dude put up 9 points on 29% shooting over 3 straight games.


and gave up in 2014 finals.
28/8/4 on 56% is giving up? I'm 100% sure that you haven't watched a minute of those Finals.


Got Draymond suspended in 2016 finals
Was LeBron also responsible for Draymond accumulating all those flagrant fouls during the prior rounds?


and then faked a hand injury in 2018 finals.
Single handedly carried a roster of trash to the Finals while averaging 34/9/9/1/1 on 54% through the EC run.


Honestly if I were to pick between the two to build a team around to win championships I'm going with Bird,the guy could score with the best of them,great team player,will play defense and had the killer in him like Mike and Kobe.LeBron lacks these qualities and plus if things don't go his way he's going to either try and recruit other superstars or go to a different organization.
:roll: :roll:

LeBron has more PO game winner than all three of those player you mentioned. Not to mention the FACT that Kobe shot 29% and 30% in the 4th Q's of the '09 and '10 Finals, including going 6/24 in the G7. Meanwhile, LeBron is the GOAT G7 performer and GOAT elimination game performer and it's not particularly close. The stats and records of LeBron in those games back it up as well.

Lets not forget that Kobe was on shit teams for like 2 season before he started crying and bitching. Demanded a trade. LeBron stuck with the Cavs for 7 seasons.


As I said before, how much of a chickenshit do you have to be, to make dozens of alts, to spew the same autistic drivel on all of them. Especially considering the fact that this is an anonymous message board.

[86Celtics]

Bird was far more skilled than James. Peak Bird has a case for being GOAT. Unfortunately he didn't have the longevity to go along with his all time great fundamentals.

[Roundball_Rock]

Bird was very lucky he was drafted by the Boston Celtics, and surrounded him with better talents than LeBron. Lebron is a better regular season, finals performer and playoffs performer than Bird. And at his peak a better defensive player than Bird.

Boston was a 29 win team when he got there. He turned them into a 61 win team as a rookie. That has to be noted. That said, in the immediately subsequent years they brought in McHale, Parish, and Dennis Johnson. That is 3 HOFers (not counting an older Walton later). The best players the Cavs brought in over 7 years was Jamison. The Cavs front office failed while Bostons' did a great job.

I think the two are comparable prime versus prime. The big difference between the two is longevity. One guy was a MVP level player for 14-15 years and the for 8-9.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Bird had back to back 8 point games in '81 Finals. Followed that up with a 12 point game in G5. Dude put up 9 points on 29% shooting over 3 straight games.They still won the series,when his shot wasn't falling he contributed in other ways.Besides you got no room to talk when your boy LeBron melted down in 2011 and LOST.


28/8/4 on 56% is giving up? I'm 100% sure that you haven't watched a minute of those Finals.
Empty stats and that shooting percentage takes a nosedive if he actually attempts more jumpshots instead of driving to the basket all the time.Not impressed.


Was LeBron also responsible for Draymond accumulating all those flagrant fouls during the prior rounds?
LeBron responsible for getting Draymond thrown out end of story


Single handedly carried a roster of trash to the Finals while averaging 34/9/9/1/1 on 54% through the EC run.
More empty stats,also can't take those numbers seriously when you know how he gets those.Honestly is LeBron blackmailing you?Why do you defend this guy?Those stats are inflated.You're defending a stat padder.


LeBron has more PO game winner than all three of those player you mentioned.
I'd take Bird to take the final shot 10/10 times over LeBrick without hesitation.Too many times in the 4th qtr where we seen him give up the ball to his teammates because he don't trust his jumpshot.


Not to mention the FACT that Kobe shot 29% and 30% in the 4th Q's of the '09 and '10 Finals, including going 6/24 in the G7.
I got more respect for Kobe for at least trying in 4th qtrs,we can't say the same thing for LePassive.


Meanwhile, LeBron is the GOAT G7 performer and GOAT elimination game performer and it's not particularly close. The stats and records of LeBron in those games back it up as well.Celebrating a guy for failing to finish a finals series in 6 games is nothing to be proud of.And no LeBron is not the GOAT G7 performer nor is he the GOAT elimination game performer.He's called LeChoke for a reason.


Lets not forget that Kobe was on shit teams for like 2 season before he started crying and bitching. Demanded a trade. LeBron stuck with the Cavs for 7 seasons.
Kobe was playing with bums during the mid 2000s after Shaq left,he didn't get traded but after that he remained in L.A. and never went to another organization.LeBron sticking with the Cavs is irrelevant,he couldn't get the job done even when he was picked to go to the finals,Kobe was waiting for him in the finals 3 straight years.It doesn't look good on his resume that he only managed to win 1 championship for a team that he was drafted to.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Yeah, just no. LeBron is a better overall player than Bird.
LeBron is not a better shooter,he is not a better rebounder,he is not a better passer.LeBron doesn't even have a mid-range game so this isn't even up for debate.Lot of his rebounds he just collects them,you don't see him fighting for those boxing out lot of uncontested rebounds,his rebounding is overrated.He does lot of easy passes to players that many could do as well,lot of drive and kick,his assist numbers are dependant on spot-up jumpshooters.It would benefit Rondo a lot if LeBron stepped away from the point and let him do what he does best,instead you have him spotting up for 3 pointers.That isn't Rondo's game.But of course LeBron can't do that because he can't play without the ball in his hands.


LeBron is a significantly better defender as well. Not even close when it comes to defense.
A guy who picks and chooses when to play defense and known to not hustle back on defense and instead cry to the refs or blame his teammates isn't significantly a better defender.LeBron's never been a great man to man defender and he hasn't made the all-defensive team since Miami.Speaking of Miami when LeBron was still playing down there with Dwayne Wade,Chris Bosh and the rest of the boys it was Shane Battier who was guarding the best player.

In the finals against the Warriors LeBron was too scared to guard KD,he was cookin his ass.LeBron overrated defensive player,nobody impressed by his defense,he isn't shutting guys down he wanted nothing to do with KD.Bird in that situation would have at least tried not run away like a little bitch.I can't believe you guys defend this guy man,it's embarrassing.

Nobody is impressed by LeBron's overrated defense except LeBronsexuals.Bird wasn't on the level of Pippen or Jordan when it came to defense but he still gave effort.LeBron is arguably the worst defender in the NBA today next to James Harden,both are known for not hustling on defense during fast breaks and just mostly standing around.LeBron was playing such bad defense in L.A. his teammate Kyle Kuzma had to push him to guard a player literally.


You do know that Irving had a higher time of possession than LeBron in the '16 PO's, right?
The same guy that averaged 27 pts and hit the game winner in game 7


Heck in '14, LeBron had only 2 minutes more TOP than a washed up and injured Wade in the PO's. This is with LeBron playing more minutes than both Wade and Irving.
He was a joke that series,getting carried off the court because he had "cramps",soft mother ****er.Out there stat padding his numbers when he felt he couldn't lead them to victory.He also wanted no part of Kawhi.Using any examples or stats from 2014 finals to prop up LeBron is an automatic L.The man gave up,simple as that.

[Turbo Slayer]

The same guy that averaged 27 pts and hit the game winner in game 7

He was a joke that series,getting carried off the court because he had "cramps",soft mother ****er.Out there stat padding his numbers when he felt he couldn't lead them to victory.He also wanted no part of Kawhi.Using any examples or stats from 2014 finals to prop up LeBron is an automatic L.The man gave up,simple as that.


LeBron is not a better shooter,he is not a better rebounder,he is not a better passer.LeBron doesn't even have a mid-range game so this isn't even up for debate.

1. LeBron has a better eFG%, FG%, 2P%, and TS%. The only things that Larry has on LeBron is threes and FTs. Even then, LeBron attempted more threes than Bird (3.6 difference in 3's attempted.)

2. Larry Bird takes rebounding.

3. LeBron has a better assist-to-turnover ratio than Bird. LeBron- 2.11 Bird- 2.02 So LeBron is the better passer by all counts.

4. Sure LeBron doesn't compare to Bird in the mid range game but in terms of finishing at the rim? LeBron is better than that.


He does lot of easy passes to players that many could do as well,lot of drive and kick,his assist numbers are dependant on spot-up jumpshooters. Not all of his passes just goes to 3 point shooters you know... He can pass to incoming cutters, pass in transition for a layup, and pass to lob threats like Dwight Howard, McGee and AD. :confusedshrug:


It would benefit Rondo a lot if LeBron stepped away from the point and let him do what he does best,instead you have him spotting up for 3 pointers.That isn't Rondo's game.But of course LeBron can't do that because he can't play without the ball in his hands. Sure. Let's give the ball to Rondo who is a black hole offensively and is currently a negative in OBPM. That's what you want to hand the ball to? Okay be my guest.

In fact, when LeBron is off the court and Rondo is on the court the Lakers do worse. The team gets worse offensively and defensively and the NetRtg is negative.

Don't believe me? Here's the link. http://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612747&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=2544,200765&OnlyCommonGames=true


LeBron's never been a great man to man defender


LeBron is arguably the worst defender in the NBA today next to James Harden,both are known for not hustling on defense during fast breaks and just mostly standing around.LeBron was playing such bad defense in L.A. his teammate Kyle Kuzma had to push him to guard a player literally.

LeBron ranks 5th in defensive win shares when taking in account veterans playing today.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_WS&dir=-1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerExperience=Veteran

Also relying on one specific moment to conclude that someone is a bad defender is a horrible take.

[Turbo Slayer]

More empty stats,also can't take those numbers seriously when you know how he gets those.Honestly is LeBron blackmailing you?Why do you defend this guy?Those stats are inflated.You're defending a stat padder.

He averaged those numbers against teams with the 13th, 5th, and 1st ranked defenses. Also two of those series didn't have homecourt.

[Shogon]

Bill Russell, you stupid ****ers.

[Turbo Slayer]

I'd take Bird to take the final shot 10/10 times over LeBrick without hesitation.Too many times in the 4th qtr where we seen him give up the ball to his teammates because he don't trust his jumpshot.

You got the data to back it up?

More so, you willingly pick hero ball over team play?

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Bird had back to back 8 point games in '81 Finals. Followed that up with a 12 point game in G5. Dude put up 9 points on 29% shooting over 3 straight games.
They still won the series,when his shot wasn't falling he contributed in other ways.Besides you got no room to talk when your boy LeBron melted down in 2011 and LOST.

28/8/4 on 56% is giving up? I'm 100% sure that you haven't watched a minute of those Finals.
Empty stats and that shooting percentage takes a nosedive if he actually attempts more jumpshots instead of driving to the basket all the time.Not impressed.

Was LeBron also responsible for Draymond accumulating all those flagrant fouls during the prior rounds?
LeBron responsible for getting Draymond thrown out end of story

Single handedly carried a roster of trash to the Finals while averaging 34/9/9/1/1 on 54% through the EC run.
More empty stats,also can't take those numbers seriously when you know how he gets those.Honestly is LeBron blackmailing you?Why do you defend this guy?Those stats are inflated.You're defending a stat padder.

LeBron has more PO game winner than all three of those player you mentioned.
I'd take Bird to take the final shot 10/10 times over LeBrick without hesitation.Too many times in the 4th qtr where we seen him give up the ball to his teammates because he don't trust his jumpshot.

Not to mention the FACT that Kobe shot 29% and 30% in the 4th Q's of the '09 and '10 Finals, including going 6/24 in the G7.
I got more respect for Kobe for at least trying in 4th qtrs,we can't say the same thing for LePassive.

Meanwhile, LeBron is the GOAT G7 performer and GOAT elimination game performer and it's not particularly close. The stats and records of LeBron in those games back it up as well.
Celebrating a guy for failing to finish a finals series in 6 games is nothing to be proud of.And no LeBron is not the GOAT G7 performer nor is he the GOAT elimination game performer.He's called LeChoke for a reason.

Lets not forget that Kobe was on shit teams for like 2 season before he started crying and bitching. Demanded a trade. LeBron stuck with the Cavs for 7 seasons.
Kobe was playing with bums during the mid 2000s after Shaq left,he didn't get traded but after that he remained in L.A. and never went to another organization.LeBron sticking with the Cavs is irrelevant,he couldn't get the job done even when he was picked to go to the finals,Kobe was waiting for him in the finals 3 straight years.It doesn't look good on his resume that he only managed to win 1 championship for a team that he was drafted to.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

1. LeBron has a better eFG%, FG%, 2P%, and TS%. The only things that Larry has on LeBron is threes and FTs. Even then, LeBron attempted more threes than Bird (3.6 difference in 3's attempted.)
Meaningless stats


3. LeBron has a better assist-to-turnover ratio than Bird. LeBron- 2.11 Bird- 2.02 So LeBron is the better passer by all counts.
Those stats are useless,Larry Bird is clearly the better passer,I just explained how he gets his assist numbers and it isn't as impressive,Bird is the better passer.


4. Sure LeBron doesn't compare to Bird in the mid range game but in terms of finishing at the rim? LeBron is better than that.
Bird can also finish at the rim along with having a post game which is what LeBron doesn't have.His entire career he's lived off driving to the basket,he has no moves.


Not all of his passes just goes to 3 point shooters you know... He can pass to incoming cutters, pass in transition for a layup, and pass to lob threats like Dwight Howard, McGee and AD. :confusedshrug:
Bird's the better passer period


Sure. Let's give the ball to Rondo who is a black hole offensively and is currently a negative in OBPM. That's what you want to hand the ball to? Okay be my guest.Rondo is a true point guard what was the point in getting him in L.A. if you aren't gonna let him do his thing?Turning him into a spot up shooter is one of the reasons why I don't think they'd beat the Clippers in the playoffs.


LeBron ranks 5th in defensive win shares when taking in account veterans playing today.
What an absolute joke,LeBron is no longer a legitimate defender in the NBA anymore,using these stupid stats are useless,time and time again he's found standing around and being lazy on the defensive end.Every once in a while he'll play some defense but overall he's shit.If he truly cared about defense his inflated rebounds would drop.


Also relying on one specific moment to conclude that someone is a bad defender is a horrible take.
I can't believe you're trying to come up with an argument for someone who no longer gives a shit about defense anymore,it's really pathetic.

[Turbo Slayer]

And no LeBron is not the GOAT G7 performer nor is he the GOAT elimination game performer.

After his collapse against Dallas in 2011, Lebron has averaged a scorching 35.6 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 7.6apg on 62.8 true shooting with an average game score of 30 in 16 elimination games.

https://www.sports-reference.com/blog/2017/06/lebron-james-when-facing-elimination/

[Lebron23]

After his collapse against Dallas in 2011, Lebron has averaged a scorching 35.6 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 7.6apg on 62.8 true shooting with an average game score of 30 in 16 elimination games.

MVP

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

After his collapse against Dallas in 2011, Lebron has averaged a scorching 35.6 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 7.6apg on 62.8 true shooting with an average game score of 30 in 16 elimination games.
Why do you defend a choker?

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

There really isn't anything else needed to be said,I just exposed LeBron for what he is and you guys try and defend it which is sad.

[Turbo Slayer]

a post game which is what LeBron doesn't have.

LeBron ranked in the 88th percentile and 1.04 in PPP in the NBA (2018) in post ups. That's top-tier.

https://stats.nba.com/players/playtype-post-up/?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&SeasonYear=2017-18

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

LeBron ranked in the 88th percentile in the NBA (2018) in post ups. That's top-tier.

https://stats.nba.com/players/playtype-post-up/?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&SeasonYear=2017-18

6/6 >>> 3/6

[Turbo Slayer]

There really isn't anything else needed to be said,I just exposed LeBron for what he is and you guys try and defend it which is sad. Why have you made no attempts to refute my arguments?

Back up your arguments with data at least.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Why have you made no attempts to refute my arguments?

Back up your arguments with data at least.

6/6 >>> 3/6

[Turbo Slayer]

6/6 >>> 3/6

Stop being a troll and at least try to refute my arguments with data. :facepalm

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Stop being a troll and at least try to refute my arguments with data. :facepalm

6/6 >>> 3/6

[Mr Feeny]

6/6 >>> 3/6

That isnt an argument. Reaching the final is better than not reaching it.

Lebron has 3 titles as lead dog and nobody since the merger has more escept for Jordan.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

That isnt an argument. Reaching the final is better than not reaching it.

Lebron has 3 titles as lead dog and nobody since the merger has more escept for Jordan.

I already exposed their king,I don't have to do shit anymore you can go ahead and reread what I posted up above.

[aj1987]

..
Remember when Miami lost G1 of the 2013 Finals and LeBron dropped 18/18/10? People bitched and whine about how LeBron couldn't score, when he was still contributing in "other ways" (as you said). Then there's the FACT that I never said LeBron's 2011 series wasn't trash. Bird won because he was carried to that title. If Wade doesn't get hip checked by Brian Cardinal and is fully healthy, Miami most likely win


..
Yeah, Shaq's stats are empty because he doesn't take jumpers, right? ****ing idiot. Why should LeBron take contested midrange jumpers, when he can drive and finish at will? That's just retarded basketball. Besides, most of his PO PO game winners are jumpshots. Heck, his shot which sealed the '13 Finals was a midrange jump shot.


..
Draymond wasn't thrown out that game, you retard. This just proves that you didn't watch those Finals either.


..
You haven't done anything till now other than throw out random buzz words. Not a single fact or stat. Statpadder.. loser..etc.. You can keep throwing those out there, but there isn't a single FACT which would support your statements.

Fun Fact: Did you know that MJ was actively chasing triple doubles. He was at a point where he went to the scorers table to see what stat he needed.


..
That's because it's literally the best play available. Bird would call you an idiot and agree with LeBron's decisions as well. Heck, 99% of all players and coaches would as well. Making the smart play doesn't mean he's scared. As I said, LeBron literally has the most number of PO game winners in the history of the sport. You don't get there by being afraid of the moment.


..

https://i.postimg.cc/tT250FRf/BWt-Xf-Cz-CMAE-DEc.png
https://i.postimg.cc/DZyrcmQc/maxresdefault.jpg


..
Again, not a single fact or stat. Just random buzzwords. Go jump off a cliff, you mouth breathing waste of space.

From a previous post:

Yep. LeBron has been in 7 game 7's in his career. You know what his stats are in those games?

35/8/5 on 48%. Before you start being your autistic self and scream "statpadding!!11", LeBron's record in 5-2 in those games. Name a better game 7 performer. Take all the time you need.

While we're at it, lets look at LeBron elimination game performances, shall we?

Dude averages 34/11/8/2/1 on 58% TS% with a record of 14-9. Jordan is at 31/8/7 on 54% TS% with a record of 6-7.

Duncan is at 22/12/3 on 54% TS% with an 8-13 record. :roll:

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/25/17391262/lebron-james-king-elimination-games

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2018/5/25/17395268/lebron-james-elimination-game-stats-playoffs

[aj1987]

..
Kobe literally cried a bitched and demanded a trade after playing on bad teams for 2 season. LeBron had to deal with that for 7 seasons. LeBron has never in his career requested, let alone demanded a trade. Ever. Kobe did that that was after he played with a top 5 GOAT for 8 season. Two season on bad teams were enough to break Kobe. Keep spamming on your alts, BTW, dbord/LAL/etc.. You come off as mroe retarded on each new account you create.

I'm not going to touch your other post, as you got ethered by a literal 14 year old, but I'm just gonna talk about one point. You bring up All-Def selections and how LeBron hasn't made one since his Miami days? LeBron made 6 All-Def teams, including 5 first. Bird made the second team thrice.

[Lebron23]

Kobe literally cried a bitched and demanded a trade after playing on bad teams for 2 season. LeBron had to deal with that for 7 seasons. LeBron has never in his career requested, let alone demanded a trade. Ever. Kobe did that that was after he played with a top 5 GOAT for 8 season. Two season on bad teams were enough to break Kobe. Keep spamming on your alts, BTW, dbord/LAL/etc.. You come off as mroe retarded on each new account you create.

I'm not going to touch your other post, as you got ethered by a literal 14 year old, but I'm just gonna talk about one point. You bring up All-Def selections and how LeBron hasn't made one since his Miami days? LeBron made 6 All-Def teams, including 5 first. Bird made the second team thrice.

He is BigshotRob

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Remember when Miami lost G1 of the 2013 Finals and LeBron dropped 18/18/10? People bitched and whine about how LeBron couldn't score, when he was still contributing in "other ways" (as you said). Then there's the FACT that I never said LeBron's 2011 series wasn't trash. Bird won because he was carried to that title. If Wade doesn't get hip checked by Brian Cardinal and is fully healthy, Miami most likely win


Yeah, Shaq's stats are empty because he doesn't take jumpers, right? ****ing idiot. Why should LeBron take contested midrange jumpers, when he can drive and finish at will? That's just retarded basketball. Besides, most of his PO PO game winners are jumpshots. Heck, his shot which sealed the '13 Finals was a midrange jump shot.


Draymond wasn't thrown out that game, you retard. This just proves that you didn't watch those Finals either.


You haven't done anything till now other than throw out random buzz words. Not a single fact or stat. Statpadder.. loser..etc.. You can keep throwing those out there, but there isn't a single FACT which would support your statements.

Fun Fact: Did you know that MJ was actively chasing triple doubles. He was at a point where he went to the scorers table to see what stat he needed.


That's because it's literally the best play available. Bird would call you an idiot and agree with LeBron's decisions as well. Heck, 99% of all players and coaches would as well. Making the smart play doesn't mean he's scared. As I said, LeBron literally has the most number of PO game winners in the history of the sport. You don't get there by being afraid of the moment.



https://i.postimg.cc/tT250FRf/BWt-Xf-Cz-CMAE-DEc.png
https://i.postimg.cc/DZyrcmQc/maxresdefault.jpg


Again, not a single fact or stat. Just random buzzwords. Go jump off a cliff, you mouth breathing waste of space.

From a previous post:

Yep. LeBron has been in 7 game 7's in his career. You know what his stats are in those games?

35/8/5 on 48%. Before you start being your autistic self and scream "statpadding!!11", LeBron's record in 5-2 in those games. Name a better game 7 performer. Take all the time you need.

While we're at it, lets look at LeBron elimination game performances, shall we?

Dude averages 34/11/8/2/1 on 58% TS% with a record of 14-9. Jordan is at 31/8/7 on 54% TS% with a record of 6-7.

Duncan is at 22/12/3 on 54% TS% with an 8-13 record. :roll:

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/25/17391262/lebron-james-king-elimination-games

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2018/5/25/17395268/lebron-james-elimination-game-stats-playoffs

6/6 >>> 3/6

[No Sir]

6/6 >>> 3/6
It’s 3/9 dumbass.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

It’s 3/9 dumbass.
3 wins 6 losses dumbass

[No Sir]

3 wins 6 losses dumbassIt’s typed 3-6, not 3/6. You autistic mutt:facepalm.

[aj1987]

6/6 >>> 3/6


It’s 3/9 dumbass.



3 wins 6 losses dumbass

Good lord.... Honestly, at this point, you should just inject yourself with bleach and rid the world off your autism.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Good lord.... Honestly, at this point, you should just inject yourself with bleach and rid the world off your autism.

6/6 >>> 3/6

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

It’s typed 3-6, not 3/6. You autistic mutt:facepalm.

Says who?

[dbugz]

MJ keep on winning over leQuit

not even clossseeeeeee :roll:

[aj1987]

6/6 >>> 3/6

1-9...


Says who?

Second grade math.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

LeBronsexuals getting upset over how I say their king's record :oldlol::oldlol::oldlol:

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

1-9...



Second grade math.

6/6 >>> 3/6

[aj1987]

LeBronsexuals getting upset over how I say their king's record :oldlol::oldlol::oldlol:

In a thread in which MJ is winning in a landslide and literally no one is arguing LeBron as the GOAT....

https://i.postimg.cc/bwhzjcF7/sndmf.png

1-9, BTW.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

In a thread in which MJ is winning in a landslide and literally no one is arguing LeBron as the GOAT....

https://i.postimg.cc/bwhzjcF7/sndmf.png

1-9, BTW.

6/6 >>> 3/6

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

6 wins on 6 tries >>> 3 wins and 6 losses

6/6 >>> 3/6

[dbugz]

Kobe & TD > Lequit

Not even close

[bullettooth]

Wheels loses again.

https://media.giphy.com/media/EapEVUAoMHU64/giphy.gif

[dbugz]

https://media2.giphy.com/media/Idl7mHA96HygGbEgwP/giphy.gif

[Axe]

🍿🍿🍿

[SATAN]

Robert Horry must be better than Michael Jordan according to this retarded logic. MJ stans really are terrible. At least the LeBron stans are funny sometimes. MJ stans are just boring and illogical though. The false idol worship is disgusting.

[Roundball_Rock]

Robert Horry must be better than Michael Jordan according to this retarded logic. MJ stans really are terrible. At least the LeBron stans are funny sometimes. MJ stans are just boring and illogical though. The false idol worship is disgusting.

It is ridiculous how whenever any player comes up the answer is always "6 rings" (except against Russell :lol ). Jordan having a better team doesn't make him a better player.

[Manny98]

In a thread in which MJ is winning in a landslide and literally no one is arguing LeBron as the GOAT....

https://i.postimg.cc/bwhzjcF7/sndmf.png

1-9, BTW.
They're literally arguing with themselves in this thread :oldlol:

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Robert Horry must be better than Michael Jordan according to this retarded logic. MJ stans really are terrible. At least the LeBron stans are funny sometimes. MJ stans are just boring and illogical though. The false idol worship is disgusting.

It is ridiculous how whenever any player comes up the answer is always "6 rings" (except against Russell :lol ). Jordan having a better team doesn't make him a better player.
https://i.imgflip.com/2uma9v.png

[Axe]

This is simply going to be a nonstop war forever...

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Who is the GOAT?

A) Winning 7 NBA Championships as a role player (Horry)

B) Winning 3 NBA Championships out of 9 tries as the best player surrounded by many all-star teammates (LeBron)

C) Winning 6 NBA Championships as the best player for most of the rings and being surrounded by a lot of offensive talent (Kareem)

D) Winning 11 NBA Championships as the best defensive player while being surrounded by better offensive players (Russell)

E) Winning 6 NBA Championships as the best player with role players & 1 all-star teammate (Jordan)

[dbugz]

Those who voted for Lequit have basketball IQ as this dude

https://blacksportsonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/FullSizeRender9.jpg

[Roundball_Rock]

Yawn, it is always about team results for MJ stans. Was he the GM and coach?

[Mr Feeny]

Who is the GOAT?

A) Winning 7 NBA Championships as a role player (Horry)

B) Winning 3 NBA Championships out of 9 tries as the best player surrounded by many all-star teammates (LeBron)

C) Winning 6 NBA Championships as the best player for most of the rings and being surrounded by a lot of offensive talent (Kareem)

D) Winning 11 NBA Championships as the best defensive player while being surrounded by better offensive players (Russell)

E) Winning 6 NBA Championships as the best player with role players & 1 all-star teammate (Jordan)


Magic was better than Kareem for 4 of the 5 rings and carried him to titles even when Kareem was wetting the bed.
On the other hand, lebron never had a top 5 GOAT to carry him to titles.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Magic was better than Kareem for 4 of the 5 rings and carried him to titles even when Kareem was wetting the bed.
On the other hand, lebron never had a top 5 GOAT to carry him to titles.

Kareem was the better scorer/defensive player

[Mr Feeny]

Kareem was the better scorer/defensive player

He wasn't the better player. This isnt even debatable.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

He wasn't the better player. This isnt even debatable.

Agree to disagree

[Mr Feeny]

Agree to disagree

That's fine. But the facts and the numbers all support me. You're still free to believe otherwise. As are byron Scott fans who believe that he was the leader of the lakers.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kareem was the better scorer/defensive player

Plus he was the #1 option until 1987 and the better player in 1980 and 1982. From 1983-1986, when Kareem was 35 to start the 83' season, they were 1a/1b and from 1987 onward Magic became the guy (and Worthy the chief "sidekick").

[Euroleague]

He was 21 but a MVP level player by then so he deserves some blame for that. Wade, Paul who were older get a pass, though?

No, they don't get a pass. Most media was calling them the best players in the NBA at their positions at that time.

[Euroleague]

6/6 >>> 3/6

Ins't LeBron actually 3/9?

[Euroleague]

Who is the GOAT?

A) Winning 7 NBA Championships as a role player (Horry)

B) Winning 3 NBA Championships out of 9 tries as the best player surrounded by many all-star teammates (LeBron)

C) Winning 6 NBA Championships as the best player for most of the rings and being surrounded by a lot of offensive talent (Kareem)

D) Winning 11 NBA Championships as the best defensive player while being surrounded by better offensive players (Russell)

E) Winning 6 NBA Championships as the best player with role players & 1 all-star teammate (Jordan)

Jordan's second 3 peat had 3 Hall of Fame teammates (Pippen, Rodman) and Kukoc (who is already in FIBA HOF and will be in BOF soon), a HOF head coach (Jackson), an all time clutch 3 point shooter (Kerr), and another lock down defender (Harper). That's possibly the most stacked team of all time. So let's not pretend he didn't have massive help - because he did.

[Axe]

Jordan's second 3 peat had 3 Hall of Fame teammates (Pippen, Rodman) and Kukoc (who is already in FIBA HOF and will be in BOF soon), a HOF head coach (Jackson), an all time clutch 3 point shooter (Kerr), and another lock down defender (Harper). That's possibly the most stacked team of all time. So let's not pretend he didn't have massive help - because he did.
Rofl you do realize it takes all those pieces to establish a renowned dynasty of a team.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Ins't LeBron actually 3/9?

Yh he is but I said Jordan won 6 chips in 6 tries while LeBron won 3 with 6 losses but since you guys get so triggered about how I word it I'll go with 6-0 >>> 3-6.


Jordan's second 3 peat had 3 Hall of Fame teammates (Pippen, Rodman) and Kukoc (who is already in FIBA HOF and will be in BOF soon), a HOF head coach (Jackson), an all time clutch 3 point shooter (Kerr), and another lock down defender (Harper). That's possibly the most stacked team of all time. So let's not pretend he didn't have massive help - because he did.
Those guys were not elite scorers or all-stars when playing next to Jordan so what you mean by massive help.All he had for an all-star teammate was Scottie,LeBron and Magic know plenty about massive help.Kerr was a bench player that averaged below 10 pts he wasn't better than BJ Armstrong or Ron Harper.

Ron Harper was not the same guy he was on cleveland but he did offer defense.Rodman was a role player he was never more than that he also averaged less than 10 pts playing next to Michael Jordan,LeBronsexuals love throwing Rodman and Kerr out there but never give credit to Horace or BJ Armstrong.Horace was a better scorer than Dennis,he also could rebound and play defense.Making it seem like Jordan had an 80s Laker squad is absolute bullshit.

[3ball]

a team's elite defenders can be forced into a less desirable defensive position because LeBron can see the entire floor and pass out the double team immediately to kick it out to a capable 3 point shooter. Players that are good at scoring and passing the ball are the best offensive players for this reason.

You act like not getting doubled is a knock on Lebron. Newsflash: it isn't



"Double teams create a 4-on-3 off the ball" - Lebron James

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZOzilY8o14&t=01m15s


So defenses are at a disadvantage regardless of who gets doubled.. junior-highers routinely pass out of doubles and traps - it's one of the easiest things to do on the court, and it doesn't require "talent" like dunking or doing a reverse layup.. so lebron's passing has nothing to do with it - teams don't double lebron because he doesn't make them PAY (get hot) - he isn't deadly enough to command a double, aka make the defense prefer facing ball movement.

Ultimately, when Stan Van Gundy says they didn't double Lebron, it's a legit knock - lebron's 38/8/8 certainly kept the Cavs competitive, but another player's 38/8/8 would've come with double-teams, thus freeing up teammates and opening up ball movement/more effective attack/pressure - this would've allowed victory (as they were heavily-favored to do).

So not commanding a double is a massive knock.. Just like him avoiding contested shots - the 2 things are related.

[3ball]

Not taking contested shots shows that LeBron knows how to take a timely and efficient shot when needed



The best player is supposed to take the team's contested shots (especially at the end of shot clocks when finding an open shot failed)

but lebron avoids contested shots (shirks his duties as the team's bailout guy) and defers them to lesser teammates.

It's a massive flaw in his game that the top 10 all-time players don't have





LeBron is in fact one of the elite iso players in the league. LeBron is deadly enough.



No, he isn't because he can't shoot or even ATTEMPT contested shots... This is ridiculously exploitable (opponents don't have to double him and can stay at home/lock down teammates)..

So opponents can play a low adjustment defense against Bron's long-dribbles and tepid jumper - ultimately, his weak-shooting, long-dribble style doesn't shift defenses/wear down teams like the ball movement he faces at the championship level, so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively - bron-ball simply loses the attrition battle on the championship level.

It funny because it often looks like lebron's teams have chosen the Finals to play horrific defense for the first time all year, but really it's just Bron-ball losing the attrition battle on the championship level, per the usual for his weak-shooting, long-dribble style against superior ball movement and shooting brands.





In the 2016-17 Playoffs, LeBron has a PPP of 1.17 in isolation. To put this into perspective, he was more efficient than Kyrie Irving(1.10), James Harden(1.05), Kevin Durant(1.16), and John Wall(1.05) in the 2017 Playoffs. He was the 4th player in the 2017 Playoffs to attempt more isolation plays other than Westbrook, Irving, and Paul George.



Lebron is a long-dribbler, not a hot shooter, so his iso style is preferred - coaches prefer to defend long-dribbling (no double, let him dribble), versus hot-shooting that gets the whole team going (must double and face ball movement instead)

So his iso style results in a weaker team that doesn't command adjustments... Bron-iso and Bron-ball = perennial underdog, even with super-teams





LeBron who ranks 5th alltime in playoffs PPG and #1 in total playoffs points have been double teamed at some point.



Quit with the low bar crap for a guy you claim is #2 all-time

Of course he's been doubled at some point... But he had many series where he couldn't command a double and this contributed to losing.. I can post the graphics showing that Kerr doubled him on 5% of possessions or Stan saying that they preferred to "let him dribble and get stats" rather than double him.

But you guys are always trying this low bar crap - i.e. a poster countered my critique of lebron's post game by saying Lebron "has a post game"... But simply having a post game is a low bar - Bron's post stats are tied with DeRozan... just like his double-teaming frequency.

[And1AllDay]

"Double teams create a 4-on-3 off the ball" - Lebron James

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZOzilY8o14&t=01m15s


So defenses are at a disadvantage regardless of who gets doubled.. junior-highers routinely pass out of doubles and traps - it's one of the easiest things to do on the court, and it doesn't require "talent" like dunking or doing a reverse layup.. so lebron's passing has nothing to do with it - teams don't double lebron because he doesn't make them PAY (get hot) - he isn't deadly enough to command a double, aka make the defense prefer facing ball movement.

Ultimately, when Stan Van Gundy says they didn't double Lebron, it's a legit knock - lebron's 38/8/8 certainly kept the Cavs competitive, but another player's 38/8/8 would've come with double-teams, thus freeing up teammates and opening up ball movement/more effective attack/pressure - this would've allowed victory (as they were heavily-favored to do).

So not commanding a double is a massive knock.. Just like him avoiding contested shots - the 2 things are related.

6911

[3ball]

6911

No one cares that Reggie Miller scored 3k more than Bird

PPG is what matters and MJ blows lebron away

[And1AllDay]

No one cares that Reggie Miller scored 3k more than Bird

PPG is what matters and MJ blows lebron away

how do you get to post lies and think you wont get caught? you should be banned agina for being a lying fakkit.

miller does not have 3k more than bird idiot:

https://i.postimg.cc/nzxztwCD/lying-again.png

Bird is 12, Miller is not above him or 3,000 more.

idiot liar, always easy to spot your alts. you just post lies and its easy to know its you

[Overdrive]

how do you get to post lies and think you wont get caught? you should be banned agina for being a lying fakkit.

miller does not have 3k more than bird idiot:

https://i.postimg.cc/nzxztwCD/lying-again.png

Bird is 12, Miller is not above him or 3,000 more.

idiot liar, always easy to spot your alts. you just post lies and its easy to know its you

So Kobe is top 4 AT?

[And1AllDay]

So Kobe is top 4 AT?

absolutely

lbj
kobe
kareem
shaq
magic

is my top 5

[aj1987]

Ins't LeBron actually 3/9?

The dude is retarded and doesn't understand 2nd grade math concepts.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

The dude is retarded and doesn't understand 2nd grade math concepts.

You still stuck on dumb shit I see,btw 3Ball is back.

[aj1987]

You still stuck on dumb shit I see,btw 3Ball is back.

https://www.kidzone.ws/math/

If you need help, I'll help you out, kid. Must be tough being autistic. :cheers:

[Axe]

how do you get to post lies and think you wont get caught? you should be banned agina for being a lying fakkit.

miller does not have 3k more than bird idiot:

https://i.postimg.cc/nzxztwCD/lying-again.png

Bird is 12, Miller is not above him or 3,000 more.

idiot liar, always easy to spot your alts. you just post lies and its easy to know its you
Lmao so you're not worried about blaze? Just keep on banging the rocks together. 😂

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

https://www.kidzone.ws/math/

If you need help, I'll help you out, kid. Must be tough being autistic. :cheers:

You really are pathetic

[aj1987]

You really are pathetic

Says the dude with dozens of accounts dedicated to hating on a grown man. :oldlol:

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Says the dude with dozens of accounts dedicated to hating on a grown man. :oldlol:
Name all the accounts that I'm using

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

To this guy's logic anyone that's a new member of this forum and constantly criticize LeBron that means they're an alternate account (3ball) (LAL) (bullettooth)

[aj1987]

To this guy's logic anyone that's a new member of this forum and constantly criticize LeBron that means they're an alternate account (3ball) (LAL) (bullettooth)
I honestly doubt 3ball has alts.

Funny that you mentioned LAL. Way to out yourself, retard.:roll:

The other dude you mentioned is just an autistic troll spambot.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

I honestly doubt 3ball has alts.

Funny that you mentioned LAL. Way to out yourself, retard.:roll:

The other dude you mentioned is just an autistic troll spambot.

If I'm any of these guys you'd think by now that I'd be banned.But you just think I'm LAL because of the way we type?Is LAL a fan of anime?Is LAL a fan of the Orlando Magic?

[aj1987]

If I'm any of these guys you'd think by now that I'd be banned.But you just think I'm LAL because of the way we type?Is LAL a fan of anime?Is LAL a fan of the Orlando Magic?
Why don't you ask yourself that?

[Euroleague]

Yh he is but I said Jordan won 6 chips in 6 tries while LeBron won 3 with 6 losses but since you guys get so triggered about how I word it I'll go with 6-0 >>> 3-6.


Those guys were not elite scorers or all-stars when playing next to Jordan so what you mean by massive help.All he had for an all-star teammate was Scottie,LeBron and Magic know plenty about massive help.Kerr was a bench player that averaged below 10 pts he wasn't better than BJ Armstrong or Ron Harper.

Ron Harper was not the same guy he was on cleveland but he did offer defense.Rodman was a role player he was never more than that he also averaged less than 10 pts playing next to Michael Jordan,LeBronsexuals love throwing Rodman and Kerr out there but never give credit to Horace or BJ Armstrong.Horace was a better scorer than Dennis,he also could rebound and play defense.Making it seem like Jordan had an 80s Laker squad is absolute bullshit.

I think Jordan was better than LeBron. But you are full of it, if you think that second 3 peat Bulls team wasn't totally stacked.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Why don't you ask yourself that?
Why would I do that?I want you to go ask LAL if he's any of the above.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

I think Jordan was better than LeBron. But you are full of it, if you think that second 3 peat Bulls team wasn't totally stacked.

Defensively yes,offensively no.Rodman,Harper,Kerr,Wennington averaged less than 10 points in that second three-peat.Pippen was the only teammate of Jordan to make the all-star and that was 2 out of 3 times when they three-peated.

[aj1987]

Why would I do that?I want you to go ask LAL if he's any of the above.

As I said, ask yourself.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

As I said, ask yourself.
Asks myself if LAL is an anime fan*

Asks myself if LAL is an Orlando Magic fan*

Yeah this is getting stupid at this point and I already know that you know that I'm not LAL,you're just trolling at this point.

[nayte]

The poll is done . The results are in. It’s still Jordan even tho it upsets op

[aj1987]

Asks myself if LAL is an anime fan*

Asks myself if LAL is an Orlando Magic fan*

Yeah this is getting stupid at this point and I already know that you know that I'm not LAL,you're just trolling at this point.

:roll: :roll:

Says the retard who thinks LeBron is not even top 10.

Just ditch this account kid, you've been embarrassed enough on this one.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

:roll: :roll:

Says the retard who thinks LeBron is not even top 10.

Just ditch this account kid, you've been embarrassed enough on this one.

This is the only account I have access to you troll,just admit already that you were wrong.

[fourkicks44]

It's Jordan ATM.

But LeBron is so close and he is not even close to done.

As I said two years ago if he signed with the Sixers he would be on the way to consecutive chips and undisputed GOAT...

But he signed with the Lakers so he is still slightly chasing....

AND THAT IS THE TRUTH and you all know it...

[Mr Feeny]

It's Jordan ATM.

But LeBron is so close and he is not even close to done.

As I said two years ago if he signed with the Sixers he would be on the way to consecutive chips and undisputed GOAT...

But he signed with the Lakers so he is still slightly chasing....

AND THAT IS THE TRUTH and you all know it...

I think that's about fair. It depends on how things fair with the Lakers. The next season and a half are going to determine whether he ends up as the 2nd greatest or greatest player ever.

I think he's entrenched in the 2 spot, for what it's worth.

[aj1987]

This is the only account I have access to you troll,just admit already that you were wrong.

Keep melting, little girl.

[ArbitraryWater]

I think that's about fair. It depends on how things fair with the Lakers. The next season and a half are going to determine whether he ends up as the 2nd greatest or greatest player ever.

I think he's entrenched in the 2 spot, for what it's worth.

Why do you change your tune so much

you have some deep rooted emotional inconsistencies/mood changes

I wish you the best, honestly bro