Why is bron great with a mediocre team but mediocre with great teams?

[Bronbron23]

Its kind of weird. He would over achieve with bums but under achieve with stars. You would think that someone who can drag bums to the finals would destroy the competition if given good players. Lebron himself obviously thought this with the not 2,3,4,5,6 comment.

Not trolling here. Im honestly wondering why people think this is?

[Monta Ellis MVP]

LeBron was a victim of bullying. If he had better teammates and not get bullied he would have more championships than Jordan.

[Axe]

Bron carried the cavs alone to a 66-16 record the year before he took his talents to south beach, which went 58-24 in the first year the triumvirate was formed.

Obviously, both seasons ended up with no chips at all.

[KD7]

Not really, LeBron hasn't really underachieved outside of 2011

2012 - he won
2013 - he won
2014 - Wade was a complete shell of his former self in the finals that year
2015 - he would have won if Kyrie and Love didn't get injured
2016 - he won
2017 - no shame in losing to literally the greatest team of all time, no one expected the Cavs to beat the Warriors that year

And this year he's on a team that's on pace to winning 65 games and in a good position to win it all

2011 is the only year where LeBron underachieved with a good supporting cast

[Bankaii]

This is one of the dumbest myths I’ve ever heard.
This gimmick is so lame.

[Axe]

Not really, LeBron hasn't really underachieved outside of 2011

2012 - he won
2013 - he won
2014 - Wade was a complete shell of his former self in the finals that year
2015 - he would have won if Kyrie and Love didn't get injured
2016 - he won
2017 - no shame in losing to literally the greatest team of all time, no one expected the Cavs to beat the Warriors that year

And this year he's on a team that's on pace to winning 65 games and in a good position to win it all

2011 is the only year where LeBron underachieved with a good supporting cast
One word: reasons

Oh, and it must be said that the warriors gave him the ultimate middle finger when they completed the finals sweep against him and the cavs 2 years ago.

[STATUTORY]

ball domination

[SouBeachTalents]

"Mediocre" with great teams :lol Which great team did he have mediocre results with? Even 2011 was more of a disappointment/letdown than a mediocre result

[Monta Ellis MVP]

"Mediocre" with great teams :lol Which great team did he have mediocre results with? Even 2011 was more of a disappointment/letdown than a mediocre result

LeBron has never had a poor season or post season in his career. He is the GOAT.

[HylianNightmare]

Lefalseprophet.

[SouBeachTalents]

LeBron has never had a poor season or post season in his career. He is the GOAT.
You have more alts than he's had bad seasons or playoffs, that's true

[Soundwave]

He likes to have a team that runs through him, that's better suited for a lesser team, with better players it means other players need to be catered more to and that's somewhat problematic.

[Soundwave]

"Mediocre" with great teams :lol Which great team did he have mediocre results with? Even 2011 was more of a disappointment/letdown than a mediocre result


I would say his general tenure in Miami was a bit of a disappointment. Two titles is alright, but that's not what was expected or even what he himself built it up to be.

They should've been one of the most dominant, memorable teams in NBA history but they're really not going to be remembered that way at all.

[Axe]

I would say his general tenure in Miami was a bit of a disappointment. Two titles is alright, but that's not what was expected or even what he himself built it up to be.

They should've been one of the most dominant, memorable teams in NBA history but they're really not going to be remembered that way at all.
Well i guess that was a bit too much to expect about them.

Btw, we have yet to see a lebron championship season where he doesn't need to undergo seven games in any series while on his way to a championship.

[Lebron23]

I would say his general tenure in Miami was a bit of a disappointment. Two titles is alright, but that's not what was expected or even what he himself built it up to be.

They should've been one of the most dominant, memorable teams in NBA history but they're really not going to be remembered that way at all.

Wade was a shell of his former self in 2014. Outside of his performance in The 2011 nba finals. LeBron's always been a good finals performer. Heat should have sign some younger players in the 2013-14 NBA Season. They were very tired and fatique going to their 4th straight nba finals.

[STATUTORY]

"Mediocre" with great teams :lol Which great team did he have mediocre results with? Even 2011 was more of a disappointment/letdown than a mediocre result

2 titles on a superteam with 2 other top 10 players in the league? that's underachieving mediocrity

[jstern]

I've talked a lot about this but haven't in a while.

It's basically Lebron ball. Lebron ball is an effective system, but it has its major flaw. In the Lebron ball system everybody has to be attentive and respond to Lebron, this is great when you have lesser player that can take on a role. But what happens when you insert a superstar player? They can't fully play their game.

This is why despite how great Lebron is, I can't put him in my all time team. This is why I always say that a team of 5 Jordan's would absolutely destroy a team of 5 Lebron's. Goat of the ball player that can adjust his game to the composition of his team versus a player where the whole team has to completely adjust to him.

This is why it's almost impossible to build a dynasty around Lebron. He might get you some championships, but he's going to lose a lot. With incredible stats in the process.

[TheImmortal]

It's patently obvious outside of the LeBron fanatics/ tards that LeBron monopolizes the basketball and can only thrive in the LeBron system where he gets all the touches and all the stats.. kinda like a rich mans Russell Westbrook minus the aggression/ relentlessness given the requirements being diminutive. LeBrons skillset can only be utilized at near 90% usage (99.9% in the 1st 3 quarters).. any less than that and he's not productive and loses his identity ala 2011 Finals. Just a mental midget thing.

[Axe]

I've talked a lot about this but haven't in a while.

It's basically Lebron ball. Lebron ball is an effective system, but it has its major flaw. In the Lebron ball system everybody has to be attentive and respond to Lebron, this is great when you have lesser player that can take on a role. But what happens when you insert a superstar player? They can't fully play their game.

This is why despite how great Lebron is, I can't put him in my all time team. This is why I always say that a team of 5 Jordan's would absolutely destroy a team of 5 Lebron's. Goat of the ball player that can adjust his game to the composition of his team versus a player where the whole team has to completely adjust to him.

This is why it's almost impossible to build a dynasty around Lebron. He might get you some championships, but he's going to lose a lot. With incredible stats in the process.
Interesting. Would Lebron's teams flourish if they played in a system that employs the triangle offense? Something that allowed jordan and bryant to win a combined 11 championship rings, with three different 3-peats in the process. All of their championship teams were under hof coach phil jackson's tutelage tho.

[TheImmortal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHtuQIJ1F1U

[Bankaii]

2 titles on a superteam with 2 other top 10 players in the league? that's underachieving mediocrity
Chris Bosh was never a top 10 player in the NBA.
Y’all keep saying this as if it’s consensus when literally nobody thinks that shit lmao.

[TheImmortal]

Chris Bosh was never a top 10 player in the NBA.
Y’all keep saying this as if it’s consensus when literally nobody thinks that shit lmao.

Chris Bosh was a top 10 player.. enough with this revisionist history. Bosh put up better numbers than peak Pau Gasol as the main main. Stop it, punk.

[Bankaii]

Chris Bosh was a top 10 player.. enough with this revisionist history. Bosh put up better numbers than peak Pau Gasol as the main main. Stop it, punk.
I thought the East was the D-league and the West was a gauntlet?
Pau was making the playoffs out west while Bosh couldn’t even make the playoffs in the “weakest conference of all time”.
Now we want to use stats to decide who’s better? Gtfoh:roll:

[Lebron23]

I thought the East was the D-league and the West was a gauntlet?
Pau was making the playoffs out west while Bosh couldn’t even make the playoffs in the “weakest conference of all time”.
Now we want to use stats to decide who’s better? Gtfoh:roll:

That guy is an idiot. I never take his posts very seriously.

[Axe]

Chris Bosh was never a top 10 player in the NBA.
Y’all keep saying this as if it’s consensus when literally nobody thinks that shit lmao.
Doesn't change the fact that he was already a 5-time all-star prior to signing with the heat 10 years ago.

[Bankaii]

Doesn't change the fact that he was already a 5-time all-star prior to signing with the heat 10 years ago.
Again, stick with one narrative.
People can’t say the East the weakest conference in history and any accomplishments made in the East are meaningless when Lebron does something. Then turn around and praise Bosh for all star appearances (already meaningless) in the East.
Can’t have it both ways.

[LeCroix]

im wondering how 9 finals is mediocre. think to this he is the only to make 8 finals for a straight appearance. I love Michael but his mind was only strong for three in a row. same for shaq. Kobe goat as welll. 3 is the max for most starts. but lebron can do 8 as mediocre. your brain is scrambled a lot

if 2011 to 2018 for the 8 years of finals is mediocre then i guess your idea of the word is not accurate or straight to the definition. Please think to this before you post again to the basketball community.

[Mamba4Life]

LeBron beat a 73 win team without an all star teammate

That fact itself invalidates OPs thread

[Soundwave]

Wade was a shell of his former self in 2014. Outside of his performance in The 2011 nba finals. LeBron's always been a good finals performer. Heat should have sign some younger players in the 2013-14 NBA Season. They were very tired and fatique going to their 4th straight nba finals.

The bottom line is no one really wants to hear these excuses.

They were supposed to be a great dynasty and honestly they're not even the best team of that decade.

The optics of them forming together to super team and coming out with only that is somewhat of a letdown.

The other thing is they never really seemed to be a "great team" per se more than just a collection of players that sometimes won basically on talent. When you think of great teams you think the 80s Lakers, Celtics, the 90s Bulls, even the Warriors ... but anyone really think of the Heat squads ... nope.

[Lebron23]

I've talked a lot about this but haven't in a while.

It's basically Lebron ball. Lebron ball is an effective system, but it has its major flaw. In the Lebron ball system everybody has to be attentive and respond to Lebron, this is great when you have lesser player that can take on a role. But what happens when you insert a superstar player? They can't fully play their game.

This is why despite how great Lebron is, I can't put him in my all time team. This is why I always say that a team of 5 Jordan's would absolutely destroy a team of 5 Lebron's. Goat of the ball player that can adjust his game to the composition of his team versus a player where the whole team has to completely adjust to him.

This is why it's almost impossible to build a dynasty around Lebron. He might get you some championships, but he's going to lose a lot. With incredible stats in the process.

Jordan never won a playoffs series without Phil Jackson. He's nothing without the Triangle Offense.

[Axe]

Again, stick with one narrative.
People can’t say the East the weakest conference in history and any accomplishments made in the East are meaningless when Lebron does something. Then turn around and praise Bosh for all star appearances (already meaningless) in the East.
Can’t have it both ways.
What the hell do you mean? I wasn't saying anything about lebron when i said that.

[Bronbron23]

Not really, LeBron hasn't really underachieved outside of 2011

2012 - he won
2013 - he won
2014 - Wade was a complete shell of his former self in the finals that year
2015 - he would have won if Kyrie and Love didn't get injured
2016 - he won
2017 - no shame in losing to literally the greatest team of all time, no one expected the Cavs to beat the Warriors that year

And this year he's on a team that's on pace to winning 65 games and in a good position to win it all

2011 is the only year where LeBron underachieved with a good supporting cast

2014 he absolutely underachieved. Yeah wade wasnt as his best but either was kawhi who was a pup and duncan and manu who were worse off then wade. Bron had the better team. Theres no excuse at all. And Even the chips he won they weren't easy. Given the squads he had it shouldn't have been as hard as it was for someone who is supposed to be the goat. Also on 2017 he got crushed by the warriors. That series should of at least gone to 6. The rockets the year after took the same team to 7 games and most likely win if cp3 dosnt go down.

[Axe]

im wondering how 9 finals is mediocre. think to this he is the only to make 8 finals for a straight appearance. I love Michael but his mind was only strong for three in a row. same for shaq. Kobe goat as welll. 3 is the max for most starts. but lebron can do 8 as mediocre. your brain is scrambled a lot

if 2011 to 2018 for the 8 years of finals is mediocre then i guess your idea of the word is not accurate or straight to the definition. Please think to this before you post again to the basketball community.
He'd probably be the true goat if he did that in the western conference. No doubt about it.

[Axe]

Jordan never won a playoffs series without Phil Jackson. He's nothing without the Triangle Offense.
Your ridiculous narrative wouldn't even exist if i didn't mention it in this thread.

[Bronbron23]

This is one of the dumbest myths I’ve ever heard.
This gimmick is so lame.

No its not. Dude takes absolute trash teams to the finals but loses or barely wins with super teams. You would think given with hiw well he does with bums he would easily win it all with a squad.

[SouBeachTalents]

2014 he absolutely underachieved. Yeah wade wasnt as his best but either was kawhi who was a pup and duncan and manu who were worse off then wade. Bron had the better team. Theres no excuse at all. And Even the chips he won they weren't easy. Given the squads he had it shouldn't have been as hard as it was for someone who is supposed to be the goat. Also on 2017 he got crushed by the warriors. That series should of at least gone to 6. The rockets the year after took the same team to 7 games and most likely win if cp3 dosnt go down.
What :oldlol: Duncan & Manu were significantly better than Wade that series. It's just weird to me in a series where LeBron plays well and Wade plays like utter dogshit, it's LeBron that gets blamed for the loss :lol It's no different than people who blame Wade for losing in 2011, it's completely devoid of logic.

And complaining that they lost in 5 games instead of 6 is nitpicking, and doesn't remotely meet the criteria of a mediocre result

[1987_Lakers]

2014 he absolutely underachieved. Yeah wade wasnt as his best but either was kawhi who was a pup and duncan and manu who were worse off then wade. Bron had the better team. Theres no excuse at all. And Even the chips he won they weren't easy. Given the squads he had it shouldn't have been as hard as it was for someone who is supposed to be the goat. Also on 2017 he got crushed by the warriors. That series should of at least gone to 6. The rockets the year after took the same team to 7 games and most likely win if cp3 dosnt go down.

Spoken like someone who didn't watch a single game that year. The Spurs were a well oiled machine in 2014, they were incredibly deep and played some of the most unselfish basketball in history, it was the best Spurs team from the Pop/Duncan era. Go re-watch the Finals, it was basically LeBron by himself out there vs the Spurs.

[LeCroix]

LeBron beat a 73 win team without an all star teammate

That fact itself invalidates OPs thread

This is a tough post to note. think to this lebron is the only to win with this deficit against his back

[Soundwave]

Spoken like someone who didn't watch a single game that year. The Spurs were a well oiled machine in 2014, they were incredibly deep and played some of the most unselfish basketball in history, it was the best Spurs team from the Pop/Duncan era. Go re-watch the Finals, it was basically LeBron by himself out there vs the Spurs.

One of the things I think LeBron lacks is when his teams spiral out of control he kinda just goes down with them. He'll still put up nice looking stats, but when a game is in the balance and could go one way or another he's not really going to grab a game by the throat and take it over right at that moment.

This is one area that you can't see in stats where Jordan is a tier above, so many times the Bulls would look like they were about to go on the ropes and then Jordan could go into a different level where he would just string them along by making several baskets in a key stretch of a game to weather a storm.

LeBron doesn't have the same 1-on-1 shot making ability to do that at will.

Great player, but I'm just saying that is a very clear difference you will notice if you were able to watch both players in their careers and not just look at stat sheets or even documentaries.

Points are not all equal, the two points you get when the other team's home crowd is going nuts and the team is on a 10-2 run, feeling great, and it feels like the walls are caving in ... when you can hit that shot that shuts the crowd up and stems the tide, it means more than just 2 points.

[Axe]

One of the things I think LeBron lacks is when his teams spiral out of control he kinda just goes down with them. He'll still put up nice looking stats, but when a game is in the balance and could go one way or another he's not really going to grab a game by the throat and take it over right at that moment.

This is one area that you can't see in stats where Jordan is a tier above, so many times the Bulls would look like they were about to go on the ropes and then Jordan could go into a different level where he would just string them along by making several baskets in a key stretch of a game to weather a storm.

LeBron doesn't have the same 1-on-1 shot making ability to do that at will.

Great player, but I'm just saying that is a very clear difference you will notice if you were able to watch both players in their careers and not just look at stat sheets or even documentaries.
So they basically have different instincts when the pressure is on?

[LeCroix]

One of the things I think LeBron lacks is when his teams spiral out of control he kinda just goes down with them. He'll still put up nice looking stats, but when a game is in the balance and could go one way or another he's not really going to grab a game by the throat and take it over right at that moment.

This is one area that you can't see in stats where Jordan is a tier above, so many times the Bulls would look like they were about to go on the ropes and then Jordan could go into a different level where he would just string them along by making several baskets in a key stretch of a game to weather a storm.

LeBron doesn't have the same 1-on-1 shot making ability to do that at will.

Great player, but I'm just saying that is a very clear difference you will notice if you were able to watch both players in their careers and not just look at stat sheets or even documentaries.

how can you speak to this when his game winners are above all the players to sit on the courts and play the game we fight for. i cannot make sense to this. his elimination game numbers are strong. he went to a lot of game 7s so much more chances to show case a skill but his game numbers are tough to beat. rest your mind and emotions you seem upset to speak with lebrons name. he is ledagger for a reason. LeCroix. Le Dagger.

[Bronbron23]

im wondering how 9 finals is mediocre. think to this he is the only to make 8 finals for a straight appearance. I love Michael but his mind was only strong for three in a row. same for shaq. Kobe goat as welll. 3 is the max for most starts. but lebron can do 8 as mediocre. your brain is scrambled a lot

if 2011 to 2018 for the 8 years of finals is mediocre then i guess your idea of the word is not accurate or straight to the definition. Please think to this before you post again to the basketball community.

Saying its mediocre is relative dude. Compared to regular people or even most nba players of course its not mediocre. Lebron is apparently the goat or at very least a top 10 player all time. Hes held at a different standard. When he loses when he shouldn't have it can be considered mediocre when compared to orher greats performances or even his own performances from past or present playoffs. I

I just remember thinking before bron had a great team that if he ever had one he would win chips easily. It never happened that way though. He either lost when he shouldn't have or just barely won when he should of won much more easily.

[LeCroix]

Saying its mediocre is relative dude. Compared to regular people or even most nba players of course its not mediocre. Lebron is apparently the goat or at very least a top 10 player all time. Hes held at a different standard. When he loses when he shouldn't have it can be considered mediocre when compared to orher greats performances or even his own performances from past or present playoffs. I

I just remember thinking before bron had a great team that if he ever had one he would win chips easily. It never happened that way though. He either lost when he shouldn't have or just barely won when he should of won much more easily.

if we remove the 2011 years when else did he fail that he could win? I will not give you 2014 or 2015. can you say 2009? maybe but this is close but that is it really...? ?

[Soundwave]

So they basically have different instincts when the pressure is on?

I'm not even talking about clutch ability, this was just regular Jordan.

It's more like being able to survive in a snow storm with blistering cold because you've grown up in a harsh winter climate all your life.

Jordan early in his career played on some crappy teams, but the upside to that is he learned during that how to basically carry an entire offence for stretches, quarters, sometimes even entire games himself. It wasn't a big deal because he already operated in that mode for years.

So later in his career when he had a better team, but the team was in a stretch where it couldn't buy a basket, Jordan could just have a green light go off and revert back to that "1-man-team" show and it was really no problem to do so.

He didn't need to psych himself up or do some kind of fancy pants rah rah speech, mentally going back to that level was like a fish going to water. No need to "turn anything on" or declare "playoff mode".

That uniquely benefitted the Bulls though because even great teams go through periods where it gets ugly, you can't buy a bucket, everything is going wrong ... in those periods the Bulls could just ride Jordan until the storm settled, keep the game close, and then someone else on the Bulls eventually hits a shot or two and now you're in business.

That made the Bulls so hard to beat because everytime you thought you gained seperation on them, Jordan sneaks in a little 6-0 run by himself and those 6 points in the end of the game are what ends up killing you.

Everyone remembers the game winner vs. Utah in '98, but they don't really remember that Jordan scored two other quick baskets in succession to stake the Bulls and keep them alive in that game right before that. Everyone remembers Paxson hitting the game winniner '93, but again Jordan staked their offence basically the entire 4th quarter to set the stage for that to happen.

[LeCroix]

I'm not even talking about clutch ability, this was just regular Jordan.

It's more like being able to survive in a snow storm with blistering cold because you have literally thicker skin.

Jordan early in his career played on some crappy teams, but the upside to that is he learned during that how to basically carry an entire offence for stretches, quarters, sometimes even entire games himself.

So later in his career when he had a better team, but the team was in a stretch where it couldn't buy a basket, Jordan could just have a green light go off and revert back to that "1-man-team" show and it was really no problem to do so.

He didn't need to psych himself up or do some kind of fancy pants rah rah speech, mentally going back to that level was like a fish going to water. He could turn that shit on like turning a faucet on and off, no problem.

i really can say that i thought every fan of bball has watched 2016 finals but now i am humbled and proven wrong by you. you have not watched 2016 finals. please go to watch it

[1987_Lakers]

One of the things I think LeBron lacks is when his teams spiral out of control he kinda just goes down with them. He'll still put up nice looking stats, but when a game is in the balance and could go one way or another he's not really going to grab a game by the throat and take it over right at that moment.

This is one area that you can't see in stats where Jordan is a tier above, so many times the Bulls would look like they were about to go on the ropes and then Jordan could go into a different level where he would just string them along by making several baskets in a key stretch of a game to weather a storm.

LeBron doesn't have the same 1-on-1 shot making ability to do that at will.

Great player, but I'm just saying that is a very clear difference you will notice if you were able to watch both players in their careers and not just look at stat sheets or even documentaries.

Um, LeBron managed to take the 67 win Warriors to 6 games in the 2015 Finals despite not having Kyrie & Love. He made the series competitive by himself despite having a piss poor cast.

Down 3-2 vs Boston in 2012, how does LeBron respond? With 45 points and 15 rebounds. Down 3-1 vs the Warriors in 2016, comes back in game 5 with 41-16-7, and 41-8-11 in game 6. Down 3-2 vs San Antonio in 2013, responds with 32-10-11 in game 6, and 37-12-4 in game 7.

And I haven't even brought up what he did in the 2018 postseason, the Cavs had no business being in the Finals that year, they should have lost in the first round to be honest. What does LeBron do? Puts up historic numbers game after game and by himself carries the Cavs to the Finals averaging 34/9/9 on 54% shooting in the process.

[LeCroix]

Um, LeBron managed to take the 67 win Warriors to 6 games in the 2015 Finals despite not having Kyrie & Love. He made the series competitive by himself despite having a piss poor cast.

Down 3-2 vs Boston in 2012, how does LeBron respond? With 45 points and 15 rebounds. Down 3-1 vs the Warriors in 2016, comes back in game 5 with 41-16-7, and 41-8-11 in game 6. Down 3-2 vs San Antonio in 2013, responds with 32-10-11 in game 6, and 37-12-4 in game 7.

And I haven't even brought up what he did in the 2018 postseason, the Cavs had no business being in the Finals that year, they should have lost in the first round to be honest. What does LeBron do? Puts up historic numbers game after game and by himself carries the Cavs to the Finals averaging 34/9/9 on 54% shooting in the process.

i begin to think sound wave does not watch basketball past certain years, probably 1998.

[Soundwave]

i really can say that i thought every fan of bball has watched 2016 finals but now i am humbled and proven wrong by you. you have not watched 2016 finals. please go to watch it

I watched the 2016 finals, and LeBron was tremendous but if I'm honest that is a textbook case of a team pissing away a Finals if there ever was one. The Warriors played stupid, stupid basketball after getting up 3-1 and got burned for it.

Warriors have that as a fundamental flaw, they are a good team (great after they got Durant), but man oh man do they ever get lazy and sloppy in a hurry when they think they're guaranteed to win. They don't like getting down in the dirt and fighting if it comes to that. They want to play fun/glamourous basketball which is great, but they don't really like playing ugly/hard basketball, they shy away from that and the Cavs took advantage of that and of Draymond's stupidity.

Unfortunately for the rest of the league really the only lesson Golden State learned was by losing that meant winning the KD sweepstakes, so even when they lost that, they kinda won anyway, lol.

[1987_Lakers]

i begin to think sound wave does not watch basketball past certain years, probably 1998.

It was a beyond stupid post.

[Axe]

Um, LeBron managed to take the 67 win Warriors to 6 games in the 2015 Finals despite not having Kyrie & Love. He made the series competitive by himself despite having a piss poor cast.

Down 3-2 vs Boston in 2012, how does LeBron respond? With 45 points and 15 rebounds. Down 3-1 vs the Warriors in 2016, comes back in game 5 with 41-16-7, and 41-8-11 in game 6. Down 3-2 vs San Antonio in 2013, responds with 32-10-11 in game 6, and 37-12-4 in game 7.

And I haven't even brought up what he did in the 2018 postseason, the Cavs had no business being in the Finals that year, they should have lost in the first round to be honest. What does LeBron do? Puts up historic numbers game after game and by himself carries the Cavs to the Finals averaging 34/9/9 on 54% shooting in the process.
Like most of us know, he is the ultimate carrying machine aight, especially when it mattered the most. So it shouldn't be surprising how he's able to put up those kinds of performances.

Despite the fact that he cannot win them all and that the east is still east, him being a conference champions for 8 years has truly benefitted his two teams in miami and cleveland for their separate finals appearances between 2011-18.

[Bronbron23]

What :oldlol: Duncan & Manu were significantly better than Wade that series. It's just weird to me in a series where LeBron plays well and Wade plays like utter dogshit, it's LeBron that gets blamed for the loss :lol It's no different than people who blame Wade for losing in 2011, it's completely devoid of logic.

And complaining that they lost in 5 games instead of 6 is nitpicking, and doesn't remotely meet the criteria of a mediocre result

Im talking as far as age and body. Just because they played better that dosnt mean they were better. Maybe the way they play put players in better position to succeed. Bron was outplayed many times by numerous players on the mavs in 2011 but he was still the best player on the floor.

And One of the big problems in 2014 was Kawhi Leonards defence on lebron. Bron was absolutely terrible when kawhi was on him. The heat did everything they could to get a switch for a worse defender to be on lebron. Alot of the time by the time the got the switch they wanted there wasnt much time left on the clock to set up efficient plays.

[Bronbron23]

Spoken like someone who didn't watch a single game that year. The Spurs were a well oiled machine in 2014, they were incredibly deep and played some of the most unselfish basketball in history, it was the best Spurs team from the Pop/Duncan era. Go re-watch the Finals, it was basically LeBron by himself out there vs the Spurs.

They werent deeper than miami and yes the spurs were a well oiled machine but that has alot to do with there system and how they play.

And it wasnt bron by himself. The big problem was that lebron couldn't score against kawhi so the heat were consistently trying to run screens to get bron switched against a lesser defensive assignment. Alot of the time this took the heat out of there offensive rhythm. I think its you that needs to go back and watch. Your problem alot like nick wright who looks at lebron overall stats and think he did a pretty good job against kawhi. You probably never knew that lebron shot below 40% when gaurded by kawhi that series.

[Roundball_Rock]

He makes scrubs and average players better with his elite playmaking skills but he doesn't mesh well with other stars. Wade, Bosh, Love all saw their production go down notably alongside him (aging, injuries were factors but it is a trend--so did even a lesser all-star like Jamison). Irving is the only star who didn't take a hit with him.

That's why it is funny people talk about his teams as super teams. Maybe on 2k but they weren't super on the court. Those Heat/Cavs "super" teams from 2011-2018 won 60+ just once. The Cavs got over 55 wins only in 2016. We have people talking about 50 and 51 win teams as "super teams" :lol .

[ClipperRevival]

He makes scrubs and average players better with his elite playmaking skills but he doesn't mesh well with other stars. Wade, Bosh, Love all saw their production go down notably alongside him (aging, injuries were factors but it is a trend--so did even a lesser all-star like Jamison). Irving is the only star who didn't take a hit with him.

That's why it is funny people talk about his teams as super teams. Maybe on 2k but they weren't super on the court. Those Heat/Cavs "super" teams from 2011-2018 won 60+ just once. The Cavs got over 55 wins only in 2016. We have people talking about 50 and 51 win teams as "super teams" :lol .

So LeBron gets a pass for underachieving? Got it. The notion that he didn't form super teams lets me know just how objective you are in this debate.

[LeCroix]

So LeBron gets a pass for underachieving? Got it. The notion that he didn't form super teams lets me know just how objective you are in this debate.

But um the Bulls win 55 without the #1 Michael is Not a super team??? Think to this, be fair in assesing teams you can find more sense that way

[LeCroix]

So LeBron gets a pass for underachieving? Got it. The notion that he didn't form super teams lets me know just how objective you are in this debate.

Think to this, which team was Lebron on that can win 55 without him? Or just drop by 2 wins ? You cant find it.

[ClipperRevival]

As OP stated, Bron's ball dominance limited the ceiling for his teams. That's why he never won more than 66 games. Never 3 peated. Never gave the public an aura of invincibility and barely squeezed out 2 of his 3 rings in game 7s.

But he just might be the GOAT floor raiser. But at the end of the day, you play to win, not raise the floor. He just never developed an off ball game, mid-range game, dedication to defense, etc to raise his team's ceilings.

[ClipperRevival]

Think to this, which team was Lebron on that can win 55 without him? Or just drop by 2 wins ? You cant find it.

So true bro.

2016 Warriors - 73 wins with Barnes at SF
2017 Warriors - 67 wins with KD at SF

Meaning Barnes was the difference for 6 more wins.

We can do this moronic comparison all day without proper context.

[Axe]

As OP stated, Bron's ball dominance limited the ceiling for his teams. That's why he never won more than 66 games. Never 3 peated. Never gave the public an aura of invincibility and barely squeezed out 2 of his 3 rings in game 7s.

But he just might be the GOAT floor raiser. But at the end of the day, you play to win, not raise the floor. He just never developed an off ball game, mid-range game, dedication to defense, etc to raise his team's ceilings.
But come to think of it, he has very good stats for a veteran player who's already playing in the league in his 17th year.

Highlights include 34,000+ points, 6,911 playoff points, 4,402 turnovers and what more.

[ClipperRevival]

But um the Bulls win 55 without the #1 Michael is Not a super team??? Think to this, be fair in assesing teams you can find more sense that way

Why don't you talk about the other 5 championship season win totals?

1991 - 61
1992 - 67
1996 - 72
1997 - 69
1998 - 62

Right, because it doesn't fit your narrative. The fact is, the 1993 Bulls took their gas off the pedal a bit, hence the "only" 57 wins. MJ/Pip had played the Olympics over the 1992 summer and was coming off a 2 peat, trying to 3 peat.

Bron fans these days make me lose brain cells because i feel like i keep getting dumber with my bball knowledge when i keep reading all this BS.

[Roundball_Rock]

The notion that he didn't form super teams lets me know just how objective you are in this debate.

He tried to form a super team in Miami (Cleveland was a 33 win team when he got there). That isn't the same as actually doing it. Ask the 2013 Lakers who had Kobe, Howard, Gasol, Nash and...won 45 games.


But um the Bulls win 55 without the #1 Michael is Not a super team???

Yup, that is their position: the team that won 37 when LeBron left is the *real* super team!


Think to this, which team was Lebron on that can win 55 without him? Or just drop by 2 wins ? You cant find it.

We had this discussion in another thread for several pages. The "best" example they came up with as a comp to the 90s Bulls was KD leaving OKC and going from a 59 win pace when KD played and Game 7 of the WCF in 16' to 47 wins and losing in the first round in 17'. :roll:

[LeCroix]

Why don't you talk about the other 5 championship season win totals?

1991 - 61
1992 - 67
1996 - 72
1997 - 69
1998 - 62

Right, because it doesn't fit your narrative. The fact is, the 1993 Bulls took their gas off the pedal a bit, hence the "only" 57 wins. MJ/Pip had played the Olympics over the 1992 summer and was coming off a 2 peat, trying to 3 peat.

Bron fans these days make me lose brain cells because i feel like i keep getting dumber with my bball knowledge when i keep reading all this BS.

Think to this, 96, 97, 98 is adding Rodman. Im sure you know this much info as a fan of the bulls??? Those Rodman years are out for duh obvy reasons.

And also 94 is closest year to 93 duh. How can we compare teams 3 years before to make a point? 91 vs 94. Or 93 vs 94. You will need more research you are confusing and uneduacted for these basic topic matters?????

[ClipperRevival]

He tried to form a super team in Miami (Cleveland was a 33 win team when he got there). That isn't the same as actually doing it. Ask the 2013 Lakers who had Kobe, Howard, Gasol, Nash and...won 45 games.



Yup, that is their position: the team that won 37 when LeBron left is the *real* super team!



We had this discussion in another thread for several pages. The "best" example they came up with as a comp to the 90s Bulls was KD leaving OKC and going from a 59 win pace when KD played and Game 7 of the WCF in 16' to 47 wins and losing in the first round in 17'. :roll:

So again, what you're saying is, Bron gets a pass for underachieving.

Got it. I'm done bro. I know you MJ haters are LITERALLY seething.

Deal with it babyboi. :pimp:

[GimmeThat]

I think if you play the game without time-outs and substitutions are done in a timely manner, it might solve the issue.

[jstern]

Interesting. Would Lebron's teams flourish if they played in a system that employs the triangle offense? Something that allowed jordan and bryant to win a combined 11 championship rings, with three different 3-peats in the process. All of their championship teams were under hof coach phil jackson's tutelage tho.

Phil Jackson won 11 championships with Jordan and Kobe using the triangle offense. No, I don't think he could win one with Lebron with the triangle. Lebron is not that type of player. The team has to adjust to him for him to be effective.

[ClipperRevival]

Think to this, 96, 97, 98 is adding Rodman. Im sure you know this much info as a fan of the bulls??? Those Rodman years are out for duh obvy reasons.

And also 94 is closest year to 93 duh. How can we compare teams 3 years before to make a point? 91 vs 94. Or 93 vs 94. You will need more research you are confusing and uneduacted for these basic topic matters?????

2000 Lakers won 67 games, 2002 Lakers won 58. Teams are human you know, there is physical fatigue as your dynasty goes longer. You're not as fresh as you were at the start of your dynasty. To completely focus on the 57 wins in 1993 and 55 wins in 1994 means you aren't applying context.

Plus, there has never been a situation like the 1993-94 Bulls where the best player from a 2-time DEFENDING champ left the team. So that 1993-94 team was going into the season with the CONFIDENCE, COHESIVENESS and CHEMISTRY of a 2 time defending champ that had a great system (triangle) in place. No doubt Pip was great. But Pip gets SO overrated these days. Like this talk like he was the 2nd best player at the time. PLEASE. Shaq, Chuck, DRob and Hakeem were better. Than you had other guys in his tier like Ewing, Drexler, etc.

Plus, they added Kukoc, who was the best international player at the time and Kerr to that roster.

[Axe]

2000 Lakers won 67 games, 2002 Lakers won 58. Teams are human you know, there is physical fatigue as your dynasty goes longer. You're not as fresh as you were at the start of your dynasty. To completely focus on the 57 wins in 1993 and 55 wins in 1994 means you aren't applying context.

Plus, there has never been a situation like the 1993-94 Bulls where the best player from a 2-time DEFENDING champ left the team. So that 1993-94 team was going into the season with the CONFIDENCE, COHESIVENESS and CHEMISTRY of a 2 time defending champ that had a great system (triangle) in place. No doubt Pip was great. But Pip gets SO overrated these days. Like this talk like he was the 2nd best player at the time. PLEASE. Shaq, Chuck, DRob and Hakeem were better. Than you had other guys in his tier like Ewing, Drexler, etc.

Plus, they added Kukoc, who was the best international player at the time and Kerr to that roster.
What about rodman? He might ask.

[Axe]

Phil Jackson won 11 championships with Jordan and Kobe using the triangle offense. No, I don't think he could win one with Lebron with the triangle. Lebron is not that type of player. The team has to adjust to him for him to be effective.
You mean he's uncoachable? Yikes.

Kobe used to be like that, too, which is why phil chose shaq as the focal point of the play during the lakers' 3-peat simply because he's more veteran and a disciplined player as well.

[ClipperRevival]

I've said this before and i will say it again. There is a HUGE difference between a very good, 50-55 regular season win vs a dynastic, 3 peat team. HUGE DIFFERENCE. The latter requires the highest level of team bball, defense, cohesion, and most importantly, that closer. The former, just requiring a certain level of efficiency/team work.

I think Pip, like Bron, was a great floor raiser because he checked so many boxes. But he was never going to be "the man" on a championship winning team. He was always going to be a 2nd fiddle. Now, he showed he can be "the man" on a 50+ win team, but like i said, that is a huge difference between that and winning chips as "the man".

[Axe]

Then bran stans will suddenly bring up that mj and his team only 3-peated twice because they faced mediocre teams in the finals or benefitted playing in a weak nba era.

Too predictable, i must say. 🥴

[LeCroix]

He tried to form a super team in Miami (Cleveland was a 33 win team when he got there). That isn't the same as actually doing it. Ask the 2013 Lakers who had Kobe, Howard, Gasol, Nash and...won 45 games.



Yup, that is their position: the team that won 37 when LeBron left is the *real* super team!



We had this discussion in another thread for several pages. The "best" example they came up with as a comp to the 90s Bulls was KD leaving OKC and going from a 59 win pace when KD played and Game 7 of the WCF in 16' to 47 wins and losing in the first round in 17'. :roll:

Good thing you can spot their thought flaws. I am glad I can spot them easily with you. The scale is untipped to favor benefit one side only

[Duncan21formvp]

The Olympics are the measuring stick for anything around the world. That is the true world champion. If you losing to foreign nations in basketball you aren't that good in basketball and that is a fact. Prove me wrong!

[LeCroix]

The Olympics are the measuring stick for anything around the world. That is the true world champion. If you losing to foreign nations in basketball you aren't that good in basketball and that is a fact. Prove me wrong!

You are so easy to be defeated. International play was very small and limited in the 80s. If you are bold enough topost a gold medal game USA oponent I will applaud your boldness. You will not you will disappear.

Poof be gone. Post this 'olympic competition' mj played. Be bold (and dummy).

[jstern]

You mean he's uncoachable? Yikes.

Kobe used to be like that, too, which is why phil chose shaq as the focal point of the play during the lakers' 3-peat simply because he's more veteran and a disciplined player as well.

No it's not that Lebron is uncoachable per se, it's that he simply doesn't have the ability to play any other way. It's the Lebron burden. Lebron ball lets Lebron accumulate lots of stats, but it does not produce GOAT level results. I'm going through hoops here trying not to say what I'm going to say, but it's not that Lebron is uncoachable, but rather he simply doesn't have the type of skills needed to adjust to his teammates strengths, like a Michael Jordan.

[Duncan21formvp]

No it's not that Lebron is uncoachable per se, it's that he simply doesn't have the ability to play any other way. It's the Lebron burden. Lebron ball lets Lebron accumulate lots of stats, but it does not produce GOAT level results. I'm going through hoops here trying not to say what I'm going to say, but it's not that Lebron is uncoachable, but rather he simply doesn't have the type of skills needed to adjust to his teammates strengths, like a Michael Jordan.

The Olympics are the measuring stick for anything around the world. That is the true world champion. If you losing to foreign nations in basketball you aren't that good in basketball and that is a fact. Prove me wrong! I want to see gold medals in the olympics and fiba in 2004 and 2006 for players born in the 50 states

[LeCroix]

The Olympics are the measuring stick for anything around the world. That is the true world champion. If you losing to foreign nations in basketball you aren't that good in basketball and that is a fact. Prove me wrong! I want to see gold medals in the olympics and fiba in 2004 and 2006 for players born in the 50 states

You are so easy to be defeated. International play was very small and limited in the 80s. If you are bold enough topost a gold medal game USA oponent I will applaud your boldness. You will not you will disappear.

Poof be gone. Post this 'olympic competition' mj played. Be bold (and dummy).

[Duncan21formvp]

You are so easy to be defeated. International play was very small and limited in the 80s. If you are bold enough topost a gold medal game USA oponent I will applaud your boldness. You will not you will disappear.

Poof be gone. Post this 'olympic competition' mj played. Be bold (and dummy).

MJ didn’t get bronze medals

The Olympics are the measuring stick for anything around the world. That is the true world champion. If you losing to foreign nations in basketball you aren't that good in basketball and that is a fact. Prove me wrong! I want to see gold medals in the olympics and fiba in 2004 and 2006 for players born in the 50 states

[Axe]

No it's not that Lebron is uncoachable per se, it's that he simply doesn't have the ability to play any other way. It's the Lebron burden. Lebron ball lets Lebron accumulate lots of stats, but it does not produce GOAT level results. I'm going through hoops here trying not to say what I'm going to say, but it's not that Lebron is uncoachable, but rather he simply doesn't have the type of skills needed to adjust to his teammates strengths, like a Michael Jordan.
Oh i see.

[LeCroix]

MJ didn’t get bronze medals

The Olympics are the measuring stick for anything around the world. That is the true world champion. If you losing to foreign nations in basketball you aren't that good in basketball and that is a fact. Prove me wrong! I want to see gold medals in the olympics and fiba in 2004 and 2006 for players born in the 50 states

This is the 84 gold medal opponent for michael

https://pasteboard.co/J5Hqy0K.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/GtBprXXX/Spain-Team84.jpg

Now what

[Roundball_Rock]

Think to this, 96, 97, 98 is adding Rodman. Im sure you know this much info as a fan of the bulls???

Yeah, with Rodman being a HOF player replacing Grant.


And also 94 is closest year to 93 duh

Don't let logic get in the way!

It is dumb to cherry pick team peaks anyway and say that is the "true" level of performance, like they sometimes do with the first three-peat: 61, 67, 57. What in that tells you 67 is their true level? At any rate, the average win total for those seasons is 62.


The fact is, the 1993 Bulls took their gas off the pedal a bit, hence the "only" 57 wins

They had the second best road record behind Phoenix. Not bad for a team supposedly slacking off.


So again, what you're saying is, Bron gets a pass for underachieving.

In other words, it is a "super team" because I feel like it was, irrespective of facts. Let me guess: your favorite player is a former SG?


2000 Lakers won 67 games, 2002 Lakers won 58.

67, 56, 58 and then 50 and 56 in 03' and 04'. That is you can't cherry pick peak seasons. The 67 is the outlier.


Plus, there has never been a situation like the 1993-94 Bulls where the best player from a 2-time DEFENDING champ left the team

Sure there was: the Boston Celtics when Russell retired. What happened? They missed the playoffs after he left.


Shaq, Chuck, DRob and Hakeem were better

Barkley was not better in 94' and 95', but MJ stans didn't watch back then. Shaq clearly was in 95' and has a case for 94'.


Good thing you can spot their thought flaws. I am glad I can spot them easily with you. The scale is untipped to favor benefit one side only

It is endless bad faith from them and they are so numerous they don't care: their play is that via sheer volume they will persuade some people.


The Olympics are the measuring stick for anything around the world.

Who did Chuck Daly say was the best player on the Dream Team?


MJ didn’t get bronze medals

Duncan was the best player on the team but "Duncan21" is blaming it, like other MJ and Kobe stans, on a 19 year old. Duncan gets a complete pass.

[RogueBorg]

Jordan never won a playoffs series without Phil Jackson.

The Bulls won 3 playoff series under Doug Collins.

They didn't start using the triangle til PJ became the coach for the 1989-'90 season

[ArbitraryWater]

This is a loaded question, which has no basis in reality.

Its something I have seen only particularly slimy/filthy people say.

Like what great teams?

This years #1 Lakers? Or is his cast truly mediocre?

OP, you piece of filth.

[Bronbron23]

This is a loaded question, which has no basis in reality.

Its something I have seen only particularly slimy/filthy people say.

Like what great teams?

This years #1 Lakers? Or is his cast truly mediocre?

OP, you piece of filth.

Lol damn this last dance doc has bron stans scrambling.

To answer your question though lebron has had a few great teams. All 4 years in miami where he was overall mediocre considering how good his team was. He should have never lost in 11 and 14 and he should of never been taking to 7 games.

He had a great team in Cleveland the second go around. He was great in 2016 but mediocre the year after that. Warriors should never have beaten cle as easily as they did.

And yes he has a great team now but we'll see what happens there. There was and is a good chance bron loses to kawhi though.

[Mr Feeny]

There was an article on insider breaking this down a while ago. It showed that Lebron really elevates role players, mainly shooters. Perhaps more than anyone else in nba history. But doesn't do the same with star players. Maybe it's the "lebron ball" that you guys harp on. Who knows whether there is any merit in that.but superstars tend to look like shadows of themsleves with him, generally speaking.

[trada7029]

That's the case with all ball-dominators

Having one guy dribble and make all the plays actually DETRACTS from the overall team brand... The best brand and capacity for ball movement results from guys that got 5-7 apg, so they win the most:

(KD/Kawhi/MJ/Kobe/Bird/Curry are 19/24 in the finals, versus 4/11 for Lebron, Westbrook, CP3, Harden, etc)

Getting high apg is actually one of the most overrated and misunderstood stats in sports

Ultimately, ball-dominators have great on-off but their lower ball movement brand falls short of championship-caliber, resulting in lower long-run championship odds, aka inferior player

[tpols]

That's the case with all ball-dominators

Having one guy dribble and make all the plays actually DETRACTS from the overall team brand... The best brand and capacity for ball movement results from guys that got 5-7 apg, so they win the most:

(KD/Kawhi/MJ/Kobe/Bird/Curry are 19/24 in the finals, versus 4/11 for Lebron, Westbrook, CP3, Harden, etc)

Getting high apg is actually one of the most overrated and misunderstood stats in sports

Ultimately, ball-dominators have great on-off but their lower ball movement brand falls short of championship-caliber, resulting in lower long-run championship odds, aka inferior player

what about magic johnson?

[trada7029]

what about magic johnson?




Only 5-4 in Finals despite the goat center, and numerous upset losses.. 5-4 isn't the record of two top 5 guys, so either Magic or Kareem gets bumped down.

Ultimately, Magic's weaker jumpshooting skill and ball-dominant skillset hurt his team's ceiling like lebron's, so i have them neck-and-neck in the all-time rankings:


MJ
Bird
Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Russell
Hakeem
Duncan
Kobe
Magic
Lebron
KD
Dr. J
Oscar
Wade
Kawhi
Isiah
Curry
West
KG
M Malone
Robinson
Barkley
K Malone
Ewing
Elgin
Harden
Dirk
Pettit


In addition to lebron's many losses with super-teams or when expected to win, his non-elite jumpshooting skill and ball-dominant style hurt his ranking as well - Magic suffers from these same drawbacks and they hurt his team ceiling similarly (only 5-4 in Finals despite goat center teammate)

And Wilt is #3 because of his statistical per game scoring dominance (the same thing MJ has).. yet people erroneously think lebron (career totals) compares to Wilt (per game)... But that's obviously not the case.. just another misperception, of many.

Edit: KD over Lebron at #11... Lebron lifts mediocre casts better, but KD's skillset yields better teams with good casts - KD led the goat team and would've won in 2012 if Harden hadn't played like young Pippen... KD still outplayed Lebron... Finally, Lebron/Kyrie/Love - that's a bigger prize then beating Curry/Klay.
.

[G0ATbe]

Toughest finals comp in history. That’s pretty much it. He didn’t have the privilege of going against teams lead by a guy dying from AIDS.

[trada7029]

Toughest finals comp in history. That’s pretty much it. He didn’t have the privilege of going against teams lead by a guy dying from AIDS.
Lebron had more help (a third star) to face his comp, so it evens out

You can't compare teams in a Big 3 vs Big 3 format to teams in a Big 2 vs Big 2 format of prior eras

So lebron faced the same talent deficits as Jordan


Btw, Kawhi beat the kd-warriors too, except a healthier, more experienced, better-performing version

And lebron's heat had more talent then the Spurs

[tpols]

Only 5-4 in Finals despite the goat center, and numerous upset losses.. 5-4 isn't the record of two top 5 guys, so either Magic or Kareem gets bumped down.

Ultimately, Magic's weaker jumpshooting skill and ball-dominant skillset hurt his team's ceiling like lebron's, so i have them neck-and-neck in the all-time rankings:


MJ
Bird
Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Russell
Hakeem
Duncan
Kobe
Magic
Lebron
KD
Dr. J
Oscar
Wade
Kawhi
Isiah
Curry
West
KG
M Malone
Robinson
Barkley
K Malone
Ewing
Elgin
Harden
Dirk
Pettit


In addition to lebron's many losses with super-teams or when expected to win, his non-elite jumpshooting skill and ball-dominant style hurt his ranking as well - Magic suffers from these same drawbacks and they hurt his team ceiling similarly (only 5-4 in Finals despite goat center teammate)

And Wilt is #3 because of his statistical per game scoring dominance (the same thing MJ has).. yet people erroneously think lebron (career totals) compares to Wilt (per game)... But that's obviously not the case.. just another misperception, of many.

Edit: KD over Lebron at #11... Lebron lifts mediocre casts better, but KD's skillset yields better teams with good casts - KD led the goat team and would've won in 2012 if Harden hadn't played like young Pippen... KD still outplayed Lebron... Finally, Lebron/Kyrie/Love - that's a bigger prize then beating Curry/Klay.
.

wilt and magic/lebron leave your list in contradiction.

magic's 5-4 record "isnt GOAT" so you knock him down... yet wilt's even worse record gets him a bump?

cause stats? :roll: magic and lebron have GOAT stats too.

one of the biggest knocks against wilt is he didnt elevate teammates like say... bill russell, and was more in it for himself to get the stats.

same thing you throw in lebron's face.

[LAL]

Lebron had more help (a third star) to face his comp, so it evens out

You can't compare teams in a Big 3 vs Big 3 format to teams in a Big 2 vs Big 2 format of prior eras

So lebron faced the same talent deficits as Jordan


Btw, Kawhi beat the kd-warriors too, except a healthier, more experienced, better-performing version

And lebron's heat had more talent then the Spurs

Amazing how KD just fit in with a team that is known for moving the ball, doing it without dribbling the air out of a ball or exausting himself chasing every single fast break for stats.. and still dominated the **** out of lebron.

Still made the biggest coward decision since "the Heatles". Shame

[trada7029]

wilt and magic/lebron leave your list in contradiction.

magic's 5-4 record "isnt GOAT" so you knock him down... yet wilt's even worse record gets him a bump?

cause stats? :roll: magic and lebron have GOAT stats too.

one of the biggest knocks against wilt is he didnt elevate teammates like say... bill russell, and was more in it for himself to get the stats.

same thing you throw in lebron's face.

Wilt faced actual talent deficits in the Finals... 7-8 HOF deficits..

whereas we both know Magic and Lebron mostly had the best talent in the league

That's the difference

MJ had the lowest-scoring casts ever, beat the 5 all-star Pistons with 1 all-star teammate, and beat the #1 SRS team with a near-lottery team..... while Wilt faced massive deficits vs the Celtics

Both developed favorite status over several years... Meanwhile, lebron won by landing on teams favored to win the Finals in Year 1 of existence (11', 15'), aka easiest path possible

[knicksman]

its because hes an all around player. the better your teammates, the more useless you become coz of redundancy. Put pippen with lebron and his skills overlap with pippen. And thats when players like kobe/jordan shines coz they provide unique to the table. And thats the biggest reason why jordan/kobe are better winners. Coz if you put pippen with lebron, its either sacrifices his or pippen sacrifices. If its lebron then hes rebounding and passing becomes useless so it comes down really to whos the better scorer between lebron or kobe/jordan. And since the 2 are better scorers then it makes them the better players.

[LAL]

its because hes an all around player. the better your teammates, the more useless you become coz of redundancy. Put pippen with lebron and his skills overlap with pippen. And thats when players like kobe/jordan shines coz they provide unique to the table. And thats the biggest reason why jordan/kobe are better winners. Coz if you put pippen with lebron, its either sacrifices his or pippen sacrifices. If its lebron then hes rebounding and passing becomes useless so it comes down really to whos the better scorer between lebron or kobe/jordan. And since the 2 are better scorers then it makes them the better players.

Not only that, you ask MJ or Kobe to playmake and lock someone up.. they do it with their eyes closed, easy. You ask pippen or lebron to play off ball and dominate.. ?

[Roundball_Rock]

its because hes an all around player. the better your teammates, the more useless you become coz of redundancy. Put pippen with lebron and his skills overlap with pippen.


And thats when players like kobe/jordan shines coz they provide unique to the table.

If you put Jordan and Kobe on the same team or Jordan and Wilkins or Kobe and Iverson you run into the same problem.


wilt and magic/lebron leave your list in contradiction.

magic's 5-4 record "isnt GOAT" so you knock him down... yet wilt's even worse record gets him a bump?

cause stats? magic and lebron have GOAT stats too.

No criteria if a list has LeBron outside the top 10.

[knicksman]

If you put Jordan and Kobe on the same team or Jordan and Wilkins or Kobe and Iverson you run into the same problem.



No criteria if a list has LeBron outside the top 10.

yeah a jordan/kobe would achieve less than 2 lebrons or lebron/pippen. But a jordan/magic will beat any combination that has lebron in it. Thats why magic and jordan are better winners.

[trada7029]

If you put Jordan and Kobe on the same team you run into the same problem.



No, the Spurs would NOT benefit by forcing Kobe/MJ into spot-ups like they did Wade/Lebron because Kobe/MJ are great in the "shooter" role!!!

So of course they would have standard growing pains of winning, but they had the capacity (the ability to seemlessly switch from ball-dominator role to "shooter" role) to fit optimally alongside each other, while Lebron doesn't (because he can't play the "shooter" role, aka high-assisted role)





No criteria if a list has LeBron outside the top 10.
I gave the criteria - lebron and Magic's weak-jumpshooting skill and ball-dominance hurts team ceiling (Finals record) compared to other guys

High-assist guys like Magic, Lebron, Isiah, Harden, Westbrook, CP3, etc have less ball movement, team assists, and win less than guys that average 5-7 apg, aka MJ/Bird/KD/Kawhi/Kobe/Dirk/Curry... Compare each group's Finals wins and record - it's isn't remotely close

edit: Magic's teams had high assists but it was actually Kareem's team as the higher rated player all-time

[tpols]

I gave the criteria - lebron and Magic's weak-jumpshooting skill and ball-dominance hurts team ceiling (Finals record) compared to other guys


:biggums:

its impossible for you to be that high on shaq and wilt then, who had just as bad records, with way worse shooting and intangibles.

your list just doesnt make sense... if you listed MJ, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Russell, Hakeem, KAJ over shaq wilt lebron it might. the logic is just a tangled mess.

[trada7029]

:biggums:

its impossible for you to be that high on shaq and wilt then, who had just as bad records, with way worse shooting and intangibles.

your list just doesnt make sense... if you listed MJ, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Russell, Hakeem, KAJ over shaq wilt lebron it might. the logic is just a tangled mess.
Wilt/Shaq dominated more than lebron/Magic by way of higher scoring

That counts too, and elevates them above the other weak Finals records

[tpols]

Wilt/Shaq dominated more than lebron/Magic by way of higher scoring

That counts too, and elevates them above the other weak Finals records

lebron is likely to beat shaq by every measure of scoring.

averages, totals, overall efficiency... a sweep.

and you cant use the clutch narrative because shaq was an even worse closer than Lebron.

[trada7029]

lebron is likely to beat shaq by every measure of scoring.

averages, totals, overall efficiency... a sweep.

and you cant use the clutch narrative because shaq was an even worse closer than Lebron.
Shaq's peak playoff and Finals scoring compares to MJ

But in reality, Shaq's whole career is those 3 years... You might be able to convince me Shaq should be lower, maybe much lower

[tpols]

the front courts shaq faced in the Finals were a total joke in the 3peat.

i was a nets fan, beating up on jason collins doesnt mean shit. and the real Finals were always in the West, where Kobe shined.

[RRR3]

wilt and magic/lebron leave your list in contradiction.

magic's 5-4 record "isnt GOAT" so you knock him down... yet wilt's even worse record gets him a bump?

cause stats? :roll: magic and lebron have GOAT stats too.

one of the biggest knocks against wilt is he didnt elevate teammates like say... bill russell, and was more in it for himself to get the stats.

same thing you throw in lebron's face.
You do realize you're talking to 3ball right?

[Roundball_Rock]

I gave the criteria - lebron and Magic's weak-jumpshooting skill and ball-dominance hurts team ceiling (Finals record) compared to other guys

Finals record is an insane criterion but we see it used as the be all end all by so many. It is heavily team and competition dependent.

Magic won 5 chips and made 9 finals in 13 years. That's bad team performance?

[trada7029]

Finals record is an insane criterion but we see it used as the be all end all by so many. It is heavily team and competition dependent.

Magic won 5 chips and made 9 finals in 13 years. That's bad team performance?


Weaker jumpshooting and ball-dominance hurts team ceiling and results in the kinds of upsets and weak Finals record that lebron/magic both have despite stacking the deck in weak Conference to ensure Finals runs

[trada7029]

the front courts shaq faced in the Finals were a total joke in the 3peat.

i was a nets fan, beating up on jason collins doesnt mean shit. and the real Finals were always in the West, where Kobe shined.

Agreed.. future rankings will see Shaq punished

It's funny because my original rankings did have Shaq borderline top 10 but I shifted things to achieve certain objectives that could be justified

But I don't think it upsets the applecart to move him down as needed in those rankings

It's true that his career was really just those 3 years (otherwise he lost his ass with good teams), and those 3 years were marked by the "real" Finals, aka WCF where it was Kobe that shined

[Roundball_Rock]

It's true that his career was really just those 3 years (otherwise he lost his ass), and those 3 years were marked by the "real" Finals, aka WCF where it was Kobe that shined

:biggums:

He was a top 5 player from 1994-2005 and top 10 from 1993-2006. He even made an all-star team as late as 2009. The guy had an incredible career, consistently turned teams around (and his teams all did much worse after he left or when he was hurt). It is hard to find a player who had the type of impact on his teams that Shaq did.

[LAL]

If you put Jordan and Kobe on the same team or Jordan and Wilkins or Kobe and Iverson you run into the same problem.



No criteria if a list has LeBron outside the top 10.

Look at you defending lebron harder than you did pippen, that's more your comfort zone i believe. Jordan wouldn't have problems Wilkins or Kobe with AI.. because they can adjust, they can playmake or be the pure scorers. Not in lebron or pippen's case.

[tpols]

i dont think anybody could say the 80s Lakers ceiling was weak. They won 5 rings lmao and kareem was old as hell by the end of it. Magic was the driving force.

You simply cant lump magic in with lebron. He was the GOAT teammate elevator despite his ball dominance so it didnt matter.

[RRR3]

Kobe never worked well with other ball dominant guards, so that's a pretty bad argument.

[LAL]

Kobe never worked well with other ball dominant guards, so that's a pretty bad argument.

You can't even be a ball dominant guard in a triangle offense.

[tpols]

Kobe never worked well with other ball dominant guards, so that's a pretty bad argument.

he literally never played with one. except wade in the olympics, where they fared incredible.

and the league owners voted demonstrably to ban the (agreed upon) chris paul trade... tells you all you need to know about how they thought that would go.

[Roundball_Rock]

i dont think anybody could say the 80s Lakers ceiling was weak. They won 5 rings lmao and kareem was old as hell by the end of it. Magic was the driving force.

5 1st place finishes, 4 second place finishes, and they lost in the WCF in 86' (so a 3rd or 4th). They won 54+ every year. That's a high ceiling and floor.

Kareem was more important early on, then they were 1a/1b and later Magic. I would note Kareem was a top 5 MVP and all-NBA first team player as late as 1986 (his 17th season). He remained a dominant player a lot longer than people remember.

Magic is the GOAT teammate guy, though. Look at what happened after he retired to his teammates' performance.

[RRR3]

This is why it's impossible to have honest discussions with Kobe stans. They just deny reality if they don't like it. Kobe was not only a great player, he had no flaws and was the best at every single facet of basketball.

[LAL]

This is why it's impossible to have honest discussions with Kobe stans. They just deny reality if they don't like it. Kobe was not only a great player, he had no flaws and was the best at every single facet of basketball.

We gave a simple response to your "argument" and this is what we get?

[tpols]

This is why it's impossible to have honest discussions with Kobe stans. They just deny reality if they don't like it. Kobe was not only a great player, he had no flaws and was the best at every single facet of basketball.

you never had an argument.

theres no reason kobe couldnt play with a ball dominant guard because he didnt favor bringing the ball up the court, nor spam dribbling at the top all game.

when you're a post master, and can drill guys in 1-2 dribbles like Kobe could, it would never be an issue.

[RRR3]

you never had an argument.

theres no reason kobe couldnt play with a ball dominant guard because he didnt favor bringing the ball up the court, nor spam dribbling at the top all game.

when you're a post master, and can drill guys in 1-2 dribbles like Kobe could, it would never be an issue.
If that was the case he wouldn't have made Steve Nash into a spot up shooter. You guys love ignoring reality. I try not to get into arguments about Kobe anymore out of respect for the dead and his legacy, but when you guys are just blatantly spouting off bullshit I feel the need to speak up. I don't think this is some major flaw in Kobe's game, he was one of the very best to ever play, but he wasn't perfect.

[LAL]

If that was the case he wouldn't have made Steve Nash into a spot up shooter. You guys love ignoring reality. I try not to get into arguments about Kobe anymore out of respect for the dead and his legacy, but when you guys are just blatantly spouting off bullshit I feel the need to speak up. I don't think this is some major flaw in Kobe's game, he was one of the very best to ever play, but he wasn't perfect.

BuT StEvE NaSh

[tpols]

40 year old steve nash who was injured all year. :roll:

[RRR3]

Steve Nash who was coming of an all-star season and was not "injured all season". If what I said was completely untrue, you wouldn't feel the need to lie and mislead.

[LAL]

Steve Nash who was coming of an all-star season and was not "injured all season". If what I said was completely untrue, you wouldn't feel the need to lie and mislead.

Well.. Kobe played great. Nash didn't and team did bad. Then, Nash got injured and kobe was the playmaker, still played great and team did great.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Well.. Kobe played great. Nash didn't and team did bad. Then, Nash got injured and kobe was the playmaker, still played great and team did great.

Played their way to an incredible 8 seed birth with 4 hall of famers in the starting lineup, all of whom were still productive (dwight and Pau are still productive to this day almost a decade later)

what a team. What an achievement

[LAL]

Steve nash:


a lot of factors: one, I broke my knee in the first or second game, whenever it was. I was never the same, I’m still not the same. Pau [Gasol] I think was going through a stretch where he’s exhausted from playing for Spain all throughout the summers. Dwight came off the back surgery. I don’t think Metta [World Peace] was quite the same. Although he could still hurt people and still had his moments, he wasn’t quite as dynamic as he was. And I don’t think we fit great …

“Kobe was playing great, at a super high level. But just the pieces, you know. It was a lot of old dogs, new tricks.

Still activated playoff mode on that bitch.

[tpols]

he absolutely was injured all season... from the start til the end.

its just a pathetically myopic and absurd justification to make on what your original premise was.

[tpols]

Steve nash:




Still activated playoff mode on that bitch.


thats actually nuts. Nash's perspective and commentary on the season.

if they had a prime chris paul, and no dwight.... it wouldve been a straight 180.

[AlternativeAcc.]

8 seed with 4 hall of famers (2 of which still productive today)

unreal achievement

[LAL]

thats actually nuts. Nash's perspective and commentary on the season.

if they had a prime chris paul, and no dwight.... it wouldve been a straight 180.

it's just a broken knee tho

[Roundball_Rock]

Played their way to an incredible 8 seed birth with 4 hall of famers in the starting lineup, all of whom were still productive (dwight and Pau are still productive to this day almost a decade later)

what a team. What an achievement

It is interesting how much better, compared to their most recent time in LA, Gasol and Howard got when they left.