One of the greatest coaches ever confirms ball dominant systems dont work

[Bronbron23]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/3023329001 its a pretty good read and it confirms what smart people on here have been saying forever. That ball dominant systems arent ideal. Jackson talks about how mj stats will suffer but the offence will be better and less predictable.

This is all ive said about lebron for ever. If he was willing to play within a system that took the ball out of his hands a bit more and emphasized more on and off ball movement lebron would of won 5 or 6 chips easily by now. He did it in miami and its the best hes ever looked even though his stats were better in other years. Hed have less stats but more chips. This is why even though i like luka ive said he wont win chips. Even Bron who is debatably the best player ever and much better than luka is or will be only won one this way. Theres no way luka wins a chip dominating the ball the way he does. Only people who dont know the game dont understand this basic concept.

[ArbitraryWater]

Shouldnt you have just said Phil Jackson?

Lmao

Good for MJ that he finally trusted his teammates.

The asterisk is, he needed a specific coach to get it.

LeBron never had that issue.

[tpols]

Shouldnt you have just said Phil Jackson?

Lmao

Good for MJ that he finally trusted his teammates.

The asterisk is, he needed a specific coach to get it.

LeBron never had that issue.

Lebron never "got it" at all... when has he not played bran ball?

the funny thing is Bron actually had/has beef with phil jackson lmao. remember that posse stuff? he called phil a racist. :lol (shocker right?)

[LAL]

Why would he give up some stats? Thats his only claim to "greatness"? Could have joined Harden and CP3 2 years ago, just wasn't ready to adjust those numbers so went to younger lakers for some reason.

[Manny98]

It's hard not to dominate the ball when you're playing with a bunch of trash the bulk of your career

The years LeBron was surrounded with a decent cast he didn't dominate the ball because he didn't need to

[FKAri]

Look. I get it. You want to watch a bunch of guys share the basketball, have some fun, have a heart to heart after the game about what lessons they've learned and the friends they made along the way, while their feminist coach tells em it's OK to succ a dicc every now and then. I on the other hand, prefer my basketball be like a Rambo movie where he's got a machine gun for a dicc. We're all different and that's OK. If anything we need more people like you on this planet. We have a goddamn population crisis.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Look. I get it. You want to watch a bunch of guys share the basketball, have some fun, have a heart to heart after the game about what lessons they've learned and the friends they made along the way, while their feminist coach tells em it's OK to succ a dicc every now and then. I on the other hand, prefer my basketball be like a Rambo movie where he's got a machine gun for a dicc. We're all different and that's OK. If anything we need more people like you on this planet. We have a goddamn population crisis.

:oldlol:

[Elosha]

Look. I get it. You want to watch a bunch of guys share the basketball, have some fun, have a heart to heart after the game about what lessons they've learned and the friends they made along the way, while their feminist coach tells em it's OK to succ a dicc every now and then. I on the other hand, prefer my basketball be like a Rambo movie where he's got a machine gun for a dicc. We're all different and that's OK. If anything we need more people like you on this planet. We have a goddamn population crisis.

Seriously? Even though Jordan was smart enough to play a team oriented game with less ball control (unlike LeBron who's really never made that leap), he still has far more success, better overall play/stats, and far more iconic moments than LeBron. MJ's your Rambo, LeBron's usually a victim. You've got it ass backwards.

[1987_Lakers]

The same Phil Jackson who failed miserably as a GM.

[Bronbron23]

The same Phil Jackson who failed miserably as a GM.

Yup the same. Whats your point. Some of the best players and coaches are terrible in other roles. Most great players make shitty coaches.

[Bronbron23]

Shouldnt you have just said Phil Jackson?

Lmao

Good for MJ that he finally trusted his teammates.

The asterisk is, he needed a specific coach to get it.

LeBron never had that issue.

Yeah he has. Are you joking. If bron was all about winning hed have gone to san Antonio with pop a long time ago. He knew hed have to play team ball though and his stats would suffer.

To lebrons credit i dont think he chose stats over wins. I think he thought he could get both but he was wrong. Yeah he won 1 that way in Cleveland but lebron would easily have 5 or 6rings by now if he was willing to play within a system.

[1987_Lakers]

Yup the same. Whats your point. Some of the best players and coaches are terrible in other roles. Most great players make shitty coaches.

It shows he couldn't construct a winning team. Phil's biggest failure at GM was he didn't realize the league was evolving to a 3 point shooting league, he signed little to no shooters, the game has changed and Phil didn't pick up on it.

[FKAri]

Seriously? Even though Jordan was smart enough to play a team oriented game with less ball control (unlike LeBron who's really never made that leap), he still has far more success, better overall play/stats, and far more iconic moments than LeBron. MJ's your Rambo, LeBron's usually a victim. You've got it ass backwards.
MJ as Rambo? Talk about Box Office bomb. Who wants to watch a Rambo sitting around whining to Jerry Krauss for backup and David Stern about proper Rules of Engagement during a manhunt? Also Rambo just doesn't work when you know he has a minuscule pecker.

Lebron won his way and did it multiple times on his terms. He continues his business to this day only on his terms. Grabbing not 1 not 2 but 3 franchises by the balls in the process. MJ's greatest achievement on his terms? Dropping 63 in a loss to a white guy. He had to share the ball and squeeze his ass into a triangle shape before getting anything else done.

[Turbo Slayer]

The best I've seen of Lebron is when he's utilized like a swiss army knife. Look back to 2012/2013/2014. A mix of off-ball and on-ball.

[Turbo Slayer]

Spo weaponized Lebron as an off-ball cutter for quick-hitting deep post ups.

He spent a decent portion of his offense as an unstoppable rim-runner who'd seal his man, make the catch, quick unstoppable finish from an athletic prime Lebron. Back then, Lebron still didn't have a post game, and this off-ball action was the beginning of it in 2012.

[Turbo Slayer]

LeBron was able to effectively work off-ball with a secondary ball-handler twice in his career (Wade and Kyrie).

[Uncle Drew]

So, how does this work then? Either LeBron managed to do it with a ball dominant system, stacking the odds against him even further but still succeeding, or he isn't what you make him out to be.

We win AGAIN.

[LAL]

So, how does this work then? Either LeBron managed to do it with a ball dominant system, stacking the odds against him even further but still succeeding, or he isn't what you make him out to be.

We win AGAIN.

It's just the tread title, shouldve been "ball dominant system MOSTLY don't work"

Hence barely 3/9 with superteams in a eastern conference.

[Turbo Slayer]

We are looking at the touch time of < than 2 seconds. (2013-14)

LeBron frequency in that area was 35% so off-ball was a huge part of LeBron's game in Miami. He has 4.1 FGM and he has a insane 74 EFG%!!

https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shots-dash/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Spo coaching is genius. Spo has managed to create a offense with Wade and LeBron who are widely considered to be ball dominators and so so shooters and made the offense into one of the top 12 offenses of alltime!

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tsl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=team_totals&lg_id=NBA&c1stat=off_rtg&c1comp=gt&c1val=110&order_by=wins

[Elosha]

MJ as Rambo? Talk about Box Office bomb. Who wants to watch a Rambo sitting around whining to Jerry Krauss for backup and David Stern about proper Rules of Engagement during a manhunt? Also Rambo just doesn't work when you know he has a minuscule pecker.

Lebron won his way and did it multiple times on his terms. He continues his business to this day only on his terms. Grabbing not 1 not 2 but 3 franchises by the balls in the process. MJ's greatest achievement on his terms? Dropping 63 in a loss to a white guy. He had to share the ball and squeeze his ass into a triangle shape before getting anything else done.

Please. I know this is a silly troll post, but your analogy is piss poor. Running around to join super-friends teams after getting beaten over and over again, often by blow out margins is like Rambo? LeBron is the king of whiners in every franchise he goes to, his superteams never hav enough "help." And I really don't want to talk about men's d*ck sizes or asses, but if that floats your boat, have at it.

Rambo's a stupid analogy to begin with, but no one in their right mind would seriously claim LeBron is a more alpha leader than Jordan. He's far more likely to be MIA in big moments. He's a great player, top 5, but it's pathetic to have him as your Rambo figure.

[trada7029]

MJ as Rambo? Talk about Box Office bomb. Who wants to watch a Rambo sitting around whining to Jerry Krauss for backup and David Stern about proper Rules of Engagement during a manhunt? Also Rambo just doesn't work when you know he has a minuscule pecker.

Lebron won his way and did it multiple times on his terms. He continues his business to this day only on his terms. Grabbing not 1 not 2 but 3 franchises by the balls in the process. MJ's greatest achievement on his terms? Dropping 63 in a loss to a white guy. He had to share the ball and squeeze his ass into a triangle shape before getting anything else done.
Only MJ won as a hot-doggin' scoring champ..

everyone else (Bron, Kobe, KD) had to tone it down from their scoring champ years to win... Except MJ - he still won as a hot-doggin' scoring champ

And only MJ won while averaging 20 more than his 2nd option

Everyone had series where they were outscored by someone on their team or the opponent - except MJ

So even though Phil reigned him in, MJ was still destroying opponents more than anyone else

MJ won with higher PPG, PER, BPM and WS/48 - and that's looking directly at the matrix code (stats)

[ClipperRevival]

Only MJ won as a hot-doggin' scoring champ..

everyone else (Bron, Kobe, KD) had to tone it down from their scoring champ years to win... Except MJ - he still won as a hot-doggin' scoring champ

And only MJ won while averaging 20 more than his 2nd option

Everyone had series where they were outscored by someone on their team or the opponent - except MJ

So even though Phil reigned him in, MJ was still destroying opponents more than anyone else

MJ won with higher PPG, PER, BPM and WS/48 - and that's looking directly at the matrix code (stats)

"Hot-doggin" is not a fair term because MJ wasn't the type of dude to just hold the ball for 20 seconds ala Harden/Westbrook. He was a decisive scorer and would make an explosive move or pass out. So the offense wasn't as stagnant.

But yeah, to prove what you're talking about. Post Mikan era, the only players to lead the league in scoring AND win a chip:

MJ - 6 times
KAJ - 1971
Shaq - 2000

[Bronbron23]

So, how does this work then? Either LeBron managed to do it with a ball dominant system, stacking the odds against him even further but still succeeding, or he isn't what you make him out to be.

We win AGAIN.
Kind of. Lebron did manage to do it which is pretty impressive because its not the optimal way to win. Its not that it cant work its just its much harder to make it work that way. Why stack the odds against yourself and only win a few when you can do it a more optimal way and win more?

[Bronbron23]

We are looking at the touch time of < than 2 seconds. (2013-14)

LeBron frequency in that area was 35% so off-ball was a huge part of LeBron's game in Miami. He has 4.1 FGM and he has a insane 74 EFG%!!

https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shots-dash/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Spo coaching is genius. Spo has managed to create a offense with Wade and LeBron who are widely considered to be ball dominators and so so shooters and made the offense into one of the top 12 offenses of alltime!

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tsl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=team_totals&lg_id=NBA&c1stat=off_rtg&c1comp=gt&c1val=110&order_by=wins

Yes bron played in more in ball movement system in miami and its when he was at his best in my opinion. Imagine lebron with pop in san Antonio. He'd probably average 26 or 27 a game with 6 assists a game but hed probably never lose.

[Turbo Slayer]

Yes bron played in more in ball movement system in miami and its when he was at his best in my opinion. Imagine lebron with pop in san Antonio. He'd probably average 26 or 27 a game with 6 assists a game but hed probably never lose. They probably dont win against GSW tho.

[LAL]

Yes bron played in more in ball movement system in miami and its when he was at his best in my opinion. Imagine lebron with pop in san Antonio. He'd probably average 26 or 27 a game with 6 assists a game but hed probably never lose.

His best games are when he has lower assists high scoring games.

[FKAri]

Only MJ won as a hot-doggin' scoring champ..

everyone else (Bron, Kobe, KD) had to tone it down from their scoring champ years to win... Except MJ - he still won as a hot-doggin' scoring champ

And only MJ won while averaging 20 more than his 2nd option

Everyone had series where they were outscored by someone on their team or the opponent - except MJ

So even though Phil reigned him in, MJ was still destroying opponents more than anyone else

MJ won with higher PPG, PER, BPM and WS/48 - and that's looking directly at the matrix code (stats)

Though I don't share nor understand your obsession with cylindrical meat, I can respect this argument. Which is surprising because your IP address is the same as 3ball's-someone who's usually terrible at making respectable arguments. That being as it may, my point stands: Lebron did it HIS way. No one molded him or told him what to do. No coach, no GM, no commish. If anything, he molded others. And he STILL reached the top, multiple times.

[Uncle Drew]

It's just the tread title, shouldve been "ball dominant system MOSTLY don't work"

Hence barely 3/9 with superteams in a eastern conference.

Nice mental gymnastics to save face. :oldlol: You've written your own death sentence, thank you. Chalk up another W for LeFam.

[LAL]

Nice mental gymnastics to save face. :oldlol: You've written your own death sentence, thank you. Chalk up another W for LeFam.

My man stick to the one liners, you have so much more to offer that way.

[trada7029]

:rolleyes:

[trada7029]

We are looking at the touch time of < than 2 seconds. (2013-14)

LeBron frequency in that area was 35% so off-ball was a huge part of LeBron's game in Miami. He has 4.1 FGM and he has a insane 74 EFG%!!

https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shots-dash/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Spo coaching is genius. Spo has managed to create a offense with Wade and LeBron who are widely considered to be ball dominators and so so shooters and made the offense into one of the top 12 offenses of alltime!

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tsl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=team_totals&lg_id=NBA&c1stat=off_rtg&c1comp=gt&c1val=110&order_by=wins

Here's the statistical facts::

Lebron held the ball a point-guard amount in Miami - more than many point guards... but so did Chalmers - they shared the point guard duties.

Unfortunately, teammates have less ball-time and assists in Lebron's 2-PG lineups than they do in traditional 1-PG lineups, so TEAM ranks low in assists and employs a low ball movement brand that struggles on the championship level.





We are looking at the touch time of < than 2 seconds. (2013-14)

LeBron frequency in that area was 35% so off-ball was a huge part of LeBron's game in Miami. He has 4.1 FGM and he has a insane 74 EFG%!!

https://stats.nba.com/player/2544/shots-dash/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Spo coaching is genius. Spo has managed to create a offense with Wade and LeBron who are widely considered to be ball dominators and so so shooters and made the offense into one of the top 12 offenses of alltime!

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tsl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=team_totals&lg_id=NBA&c1stat=off_rtg&c1comp=gt&c1val=110&order_by=wins




It's a well-documented fact that the Spurs exploited the lack of fit between Wade/Lebron...

The Spurs were coming off one to help on the other's drives, thus forcing them to pass to each other for spot-ups (their weakness).

They destroyed lebron doing this - nullified his entire brand and exploited his inability to play the shooter role.

So no, you're overblowing things to inflate lebron and protect your feelings..

[knicksman]

It's hard not to dominate the ball when you're playing with a bunch of trash the bulk of your career

The years LeBron was surrounded with a decent cast he didn't dominate the ball because he didn't need to

More like Im not confident with my skills to win rings so ill just take the stats route.

[AirBonner]

LeBron: 3 chips

More than the Knicks

2nd most FMVPS

Doesn’t work.

:biggums::roll:

[trada7029]

.
Jerry west (goat talent evaluator) CLEARLY SAYS that he prefers MJ over Bron because MJ was much "better for ball movement":

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TfpDYxq9K3U&t=24m06s

[Axe]

It shows he couldn't construct a winning team. Phil's biggest failure at GM was he didn't realize the league was evolving to a 3 point shooting league, he signed little to no shooters, the game has changed and Phil didn't pick up on it.
You do realize that the nyk used to be a laughingstock franchise for many seasons, right? Also, what does his executive role have to do with his own success as a head coach? Sounds like a pretty lame butthurt argument to belittle his accolades if you ask me.

[YouKnowWhatItIs]

LeBron pretty much had no chance at winning 2007, 2014, 2015, 2017 or 2018.

Ball movement or not, I don’t see how his teams could have won