Is Magic Johnson Overrated?

[Stephonit]

These days many people seem to automatically accept that Magic Johnson is a top 10 player of all-time. He won a championship 5 times and was awarded the MVP 3 times. Seems like an impeccable record right? But is it really? There's that thread asking if Isiah Thomas is overrated. If that needs to be asked then it needs to be asked if Magic was as well. They're pretty much in the same position: point guards that led very solid rosters. Difference is Thomas didn't have a top 10 all-time player as a teammate and he had to go through the Eastern conference where Bird and Jordan played.

Magic won championships with another top 10 player: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar who is not only top 10 but arguably greatest ever. No other commonly argued top 10 player played with another top 10 player aside from possibly Shaq and Kobe if Kobe were to be considered top 10. Magic never won a championship without Kareem. Even aside from Kareem, Magic played on what was considered a stacked team. Not only that, it was a stacked team in a notoriously weak conference. Despite being on a stacked team in a notoriously weak conference though his Showtime Lakers don't stand out in terms of wins records. The Showtime Lakers' best season had a 65-win record. In terms of dominating championship runs the Shaq/Kobe Lakers come to mind quicker when the topic of the greatest teams of all-time comes up. The Lakers' greatest rival was of course the Boston Celtics but Kareem was still a force early on in their encounters. When Kareem really faded Larry Bird was beset with injuries. At Magic's peak his competition was the Bad Boy Pistons. After Jordan broke through it was over.

Magic's MVP seasons don't look particularly impressive historically. He started loading up on them in 1989 and 1990 after Bird became injured. One suspects the league wanted to build up its remaining veteran star. It shouldn't be surprising that despite having 5 rings to his name Magic didn't win a ring in either of these MVP years.

[1987_Lakers]

No, not at all. I don't believe Magic at his peak was better than MJ or Bird, but he is still the best PG to ever play by a sizable manage. You have to keep in mind Magic won championships with a past prime Kareem, by '87 Kareem was a 17 ppg player and provided little rebounding and defense, he was even worse in '88 & '89. Magic won 2 titles as the clear cut best player on his team. Even when guys like Kareem retired, Cooper retired, Riley left, and the West became a much better conference...The Lakers were still a 58-63 win team and the main reason for that was Magic. And Magic's '87 MVP season is very historic season, how many PG's out there have averaged 24/6/12 on crazy good efficiency? From '87-'90 he was one of the greatest offensive players this league has ever seen.

[Round Mound]

He is overrated in that he had the better teamates than anyone in the 80's. Its true and thats why he won so many championships or finals appareances

BUT...he was a hell of a player himself:

- Greatest Passer Ever For Anyone At or Over 6'7 ft.
- The GOAT or 2nd GOAT (Depends On How You Feel About John Stockton) in OFFENSE CREATION.
- The GOAT Ballhandling Fastbreak Desicion Maker Ever.
- Very Good Rebounder at Any Position (btw Magic was stronger than you think, i´ve seen im box out centers)
- Became a Good Set Shooter as Career Progressed
- Great Post Player + Developed That Baby Hook
- Clutch Scorer (People Forget he had many buzzer beaters and last second shots to win games)
- Could Do Difficult Layups With Either Hand
- Great Fundamentals
- 2nd or 1st Smartest Player of the 80's (Depends On How You Feel About Larry Bird)
- Great Team Defender and Stealer
- GOAT PG Considerations since rookie year and had that amazing finals appearence as a rookie when Kareem got Injured in 1980 he wen't for: 42-15-7
- Offensive Versatility: Could Play The 1, 3 and 4.

[GimmeThat]

for the fact that he was a PG, I'd say he had probably the worst footwork, if any at all. He pretty much benefited from basketballs being played and taught where only big man would post up, and smaller player even if they could and/or had the mismatch, were better off playing off the ball for a shot.

as to the times he did indeed post up, again, as a PG, that just shows how ball dominant he was and lacked the off the ball movement in setting screens.

as for the argument that he played the 1, 3 and 4. His career FTA average is too low to make such claim for an all time top 10.

[D.J.]

No. Yes, he was blessed with HOF coaching and teammates. But he also probably has the highest ball IQ of anyone named Bird, could play positions 1-5, easily the best at starting the fast break, arguably the GOAT passer and was extremely fundamentally sound.

[Stephonit]

No. Yes, he was blessed with HOF coaching and teammates. But he also probably has the highest ball IQ of anyone named Bird, could play positions 1-5, easily the best at starting the fast break, arguably the GOAT passer and was extremely fundamentally sound.

What's this based on?

Here's one analyst's review:

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Nash-Big-4-PS.png

Magic scored less and turned the ball over more than the others and his creation wasn't the best.

[1987_Lakers]

What's this based on?

Here's one analyst's review:

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Nash-Big-4-PS.png

Magic scored less and turned the ball over more than the others and his creation wasn't the best.

That same analyst has Magic in the top 10, and as the GOAT PG.

[Stephonit]

That same analyst has Magic in the top 10, and as the GOAT PG.

Which is my problem with a lot of the stuff on Magic. The conclusions don't match the data. Look at that chart. Nash and Curry are superior in all offensive facets.

[Uncle Drew]

No, Curry is not better than him.

[1987_Lakers]

Which is my problem with a lot of the stuff on Magic. The conclusions don't match the data. Look at that chart. Nash and Curry are superior in all offensive facets.

That stuff in the chart only covers a 3 year span, look at Nash's playoff numbers excluding '05-'07, they take a noticeable dip, Magic on the other hand had consistent numbers in the postseason from '83-'91, longevity means something.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Yeah because he had a lot of talent around him.Magic was obviously the best passer on those Laker teams but he had teammates that were better scorers,better shooters and better defenders than him.

[GimmeThat]

What's this based on?

Here's one analyst's review:

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Nash-Big-4-PS.png

Magic scored less and turned the ball over more than the others and his creation wasn't the best.

correct me where I'm wrong, but I fail to see how Offensive win share is being represented at where the x-axis intercepts the y-axis

[Gimmedarock]

I haven’t watched a ton of highlights but was surprised at how basic his game looked against the Bulls. Backing guys down is what old guys do at the gym! Obviously not the best handle. I’ve never seen him shoot much so he wasn’t much of a perimeter threat. Guys today can get to the rim & hit from outside all day. They also don’t hog the bell like old points did. It’s more of a team game now and not one guy trying to create. I don’t think he’d be top 5 point guard today. He’d probably play a different but just pass a lot.

[Mr Feeny]

Which is my problem with a lot of the stuff on Magic. The conclusions don't match the data. Look at that chart. Nash and Curry are superior in all offensive facets.

I'm surprised you even had to explain that. Pretty basic.

[Mr Feeny]

Yeah because he had a lot of talent around him.Magic was obviously the best passer on those Laker teams but he had teammates that were better scorers,better shooters and better defenders than him.

Beat passer on his team but was helped by the style of play the Lakers went with. Fast paced basketball that hid his accentuated his strengths and his his weakness. Imagine Magic trying to guard anyone in a half court defensive set. He had many weaknesses, as you said, which makes him overrated.

[Phoenix]

I haven’t watched a ton of highlights but was surprised at how basic his game looked against the Bulls. Backing guys down is what old guys do at the gym! Obviously not the best handle. I’ve never seen him shoot much so he wasn’t much of a perimeter threat. Guys today can get to the rim & hit from outside all day. They also don’t hog the bell like old points did. It’s more of a team game now and not one guy trying to create. I don’t think he’d be top 5 point guard today. He’d probably play a different but just pass a lot.

I doubt Magic would line up at PG today TBH. His handles aren't flashy by modern standards but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the fundamental base to protect his dribble. The main adjustment for him would be in today's game, a lot of 6'7-6'9 guys can dribble like a guard so that aspect of what gave him an edge in the 80s isn't there. He still has all-time great passing and IQ instincts and like most *all-time* greats he'd adjust to the era in terms of shooting and dribbling style. He'd have to be hidden defensively but no moreso than a Steph Curry would.

[AussieSteve]

I'm going to go against the trend slightly and say yes he is little over rated.

Absolutely undoubtedly top 10 ever and greater than everyone not named LeBron in today's league, but the fact that no one ever bats an eyelid at him seemingly always being in the all time top 5 on every list is a little generous in my opinion.

Having said this I'm not sure which 5 players you could say are definitely above him.

His mark on the game is top 5 ever, that is for certain.

One thing I will say for sure is that is Bird >

[RogueBorg]

You had to have seen him play to understand his magnificence. Point guards that could run and pass like he could weren't supposed to be 6'-9". He was the smiling assassin, full of charisma, the alpha male on the court. The Lakers already had Kareem but hadn't won a championship, when magic showed up they were instant contenders and champions his first season. He was as good as advertised. Now, that's not to say he didn't have some brain farts along the way. But man, he was amazing to watch. His battles and rivalry with Bird and the Celtics, we'll never see anything like it again.

[sportjames23]

You had to have seen him play to understand his magnificence. Point guards that could run and pass like he could weren't supposed to be 6'-9". He was the smiling assassin, full of charisma, the alpha male on the court. The Lakers already had Kareem but hadn't won a championship, when magic showed up they were instant contenders and champions his first season. He was as good as advertised. Now, that's not to say he didn't have some brain farts along the way. But man, he was amazing to watch. His battles and rivalry with Bird and the Celtics, we'll never see anything like it again.

This. :cheers:

[tpols]

if anything he's underrated how he enhanced his teammates (GOAT with bird, russell, curry) and had incredible individual production on top of it.

kareem couldnt win shit without magic, he didnt make other players better.

[mr4speed]

if anything he's underrated how he enhanced his teammates (GOAT with bird, russell, curry) and had incredible individual production on top of it.

kareem couldnt win shit without magic, he didnt make other players better.

Magic is sometimes overrated depending on what list we are talking about. I recently saw a top 50 goat list where Magic was #3 and Kareem was #4. Kareem in the 1980 Finals was voted the FMVP after Magic's great game 6 but the voters were asked to change their votes so Magic would win the award. Kareem is why LA won the other 3 games. In the 81 playoff elimination game vs Houston, Magic was horrible. In the 83 Finals Magic shot 40.3% and had 6 turnovers per game. After the 84 Finals, was anyone talking about Kareem? In 85 Finals after a terrible game 1, Kareem in the next 5 games put up a per game of 28.4 points, 10.2 rebounds, 6.0 assists and shot 61% and was FMVP at age 38. Kareem benefited with Magic on his team and Magic benefited with having Kareem also. Magic was such a poor defender as a rookie , he needed special coaching on defense as the zone he played at MSU did not prepare him for the NBA. Magic's last MVP in 1990 was a gift as Barkley was the more deserving candidate. Barkley had more first place votes and led Magic in points per game, rebounds per game, steals per game, blocks per game, field goal %, EFG%, win share, PER, VORP, and had fewer turnovers per game. Magic led Barkley in assists per game and freethrow %. Statistics do not tell the whole story but Kareem's resume is certainly better than Magic's IMO.

[SouBeachTalents]

Magic is sometimes overrated depending on what list we are talking about. I recently saw a top 50 goat list where Magic was #3 and Kareem was #4. Kareem in the 1980 Finals was voted the FMVP after Magic's great game 6 but the voters were asked to change their votes so Magic would win the award. Kareem is why LA won the other 3 games. In the 81 playoff elimination game vs Houston, Magic was horrible. In the 83 Finals Magic shot 40.3% and had 6 turnovers per game. After the 84 Finals, was anyone talking about Kareem? In 85 Finals after a terrible game 1, Kareem in the next 5 games put up a per game of 28.4 points, 10.2 rebounds, 6.0 assists and shot 61% and was FMVP at age 38. Kareem benefited with Magic on his team and Magic benefited with having Kareem also. Magic was such a poor defender as a rookie , he needed special coaching on defense as the zone he played at MSU did not prepare him for the NBA. Magic's last MVP in 1990 was a gift as Barkley was the more deserving candidate. Barkley had more first place votes and led Magic in points per game, rebounds per game, steals per game, blocks per game, field goal %, EFG%, win share, PER, VORP, and had fewer turnovers per game. Magic led Barkley in assists per game and freethrow %. Statistics do not tell the whole story but Kareem's resume is certainly better than Magic's IMO.
Magic is consistently ranked higher than guys like Shaq, Duncan & Bird. Magic definitely wasn't better at his peak than Shaq or Bird, his longevity was clearly worse than Shaq & Duncan's, and he didn't even win more titles than Duncan.

I wouldn't even disagree if you ranked those 4 in any order, but it's weird to me that Magic is almost always ranked higher than those guys. I feel like in that regard he becomes overrated

[SATAN]

How is Magic over rated?

This Curry fan has to be a troll account

[Smoke117]

If nothing else I think Magic would have a much harder time in the current NBA than Larry Bird. Magic was a PG and he just wouldn't be that in the modern nba the last dozen years or so, period. He's just too slow. You just can't put him in that role with the way the NBA is played. Magic in the Current NBA would probably be a jokic like PF. Making plays and scoring around the post like he does. I just don't see him being a good enough athlete or ball handler to play the same role he did in the 80s. I could see him being a great player in that kind of Jokic role, though. Larry Bird, it's easy to see being a complete baller. He was always on the move anyway. You just put him at center and there is basically almost no team that could match up against him. He'd grab rebounds, score while stretching the floor, create for others. He wouldn't be playing sf anymore, but you wouldn't even want him to as he's such a tough sturdy guy that you can put him at Center and be just fine and completely deadly because of how he could go out of the paint on both ends.

[Roundball_Rock]

Magic was such a poor defender as a rookie , he needed special coaching on defense as the zone he played at MSU did not prepare him for the NBA.

We never hear of this because all we hear about are Jordan, LeBron, and Kobe.


Magic is sometimes overrated depending on what list we are talking about. I recently saw a top 50 goat list where Magic was #3 and Kareem was #4.


Magic is consistently ranked higher than guys like Shaq, Duncan & Bird. Magic definitely wasn't better at his peak than Shaq or Bird, his longevity was clearly worse than Shaq & Duncan's, and he didn't even win more titles than Duncan.

I wouldn't even disagree if you ranked those 4 in any order, but it's weird to me that Magic is almost always ranked higher than those guys. I feel like in that regard he becomes overrated

Great points. No way he should ever be ranked ahead of Kareem, and we see that now at times. It is funny because Bird was considered the better player when both were in their primes but now you see Magic in the top 5 on lists and Bird barely clinging to the top 10. When is the last time you saw Bird ahead of Magic on a serious list?

Magic gets too much credit for those early Lakers' chips. In 1980 Magic was 18/8/7 and people will say he was the best player on the team.

A lot of it is because he won 3 FMVPs and Kareem 1 (Worthy winning 1 is forgotten, which was when Kareem was 40 and Magic clearly "the man") in LA. FMVP is the most overrated award (Iggy being the prime example). Kareem was the legit winner in 1980 but voters changed their votes because CBS did not want to give the award to an empty chair. This came out years later. For 82' Magic was 16/11/8 in the finals, which is great but not Earth shattering (other "sidekicks" have put up comparable numbers). In 84' Kareem would have won the FMVP, like in 85', but Magic choked ("Tragic Magic") in the finals and they lost in 7. So the bottom line is Magic won 3 and Kareem 1 when it easily could have been Kareem 3, Magic 2, and Worthy 1. Had that happened maybe perceptions would be different but maybe not. Magic and Bird were the saviors of the league and marketed heavily, Magic is likable and Kareem lacked either advantage.

He was a great player to be sure. The best PG ever, arguably the GOAT in elevating teammates offensively. I still have him #8, ahead of Duncan, Kobe, Hakeem because he was more dominant than them but he has holes in his resume that get glossed over in a way that isn't done for Bird. I have to put Shaq and Bird over him. Magic doesn't have much of a case over Shaq. Magic has better longevity than Bird but both had (relatively) poor longevity so not much of a selling point.

[SouBeachTalents]

We never hear of this because all we hear about are Jordan, LeBron, and Kobe.





Great points. No way he should ever be ranked ahead of Kareem, and we see that now at times. It is funny because Bird was considered the better player when both were in their primes but now you see Magic in the top 5 on lists and Bird barely clinging to the top 10. When is the last time you saw Bird ahead of Magic on a serious list?

Magic gets too much credit for those early Lakers' chips. In 1980 Magic was 18/8/7 and people will say he was the best player on the team.

A lot of it is because he won 3 FMVPs and Kareem 1 (Worthy winning 1 is forgotten, which was when Kareem was 40 and Magic clearly "the man") in LA. FMVP is the most overrated award (Iggy being the prime example). Kareem was the legit winner in 1980 but voters changed their votes because CBS did not want to give the award to an empty chair. This came out years later. For 82' Magic was 16/11/8 in the finals, which is great but not Earth shattering (other "sidekicks" have put up comparable numbers). In 84' Kareem would have won the FMVP, like in 85', but Magic choked ("Tragic Magic") in the finals and they lost in 7. So the bottom line is Magic won 3 and Kareem 1 when it easily could have been Kareem 3, Magic 2, and Worthy 1. Had that happened maybe perceptions would be different but maybe not. Magic and Bird were the saviors of the league and marketed heavily, Magic is likable and Kareem lacked either advantage.

He was a great player to be sure. The best PG ever, arguably the GOAT in elevating teammates offensively. I still have him #8, ahead of Duncan, Kobe, Hakeem because he was more dominant than them but he has holes in his resume that get glossed over in a way that isn't done for Bird. I have to put Shaq and Bird over him. Magic doesn't have much of a case over Shaq. Magic has better longevity than Bird but both had (relatively) poor longevity so not much of a selling point.
I feel like in regards to FMVP's, Magic's even out. He took what should've been Kareem's in 1980, but on the flip side Worthy won in '88 in a series Magic was the clear FMVP. Ironically, the final game of each series ended up deciding who won, with Magic & Worthy having GOAT level performances in each clincher.

Magic was the most deserving player in '82, but damn, that is one of the weakest FMVP performances ever. Magic finished 5th on the Lakers and scoring, and most surprising of all, didn't even lead the team in assists.

I have a similar ranking as you. All those players you listed would be 6-11 on my all time list. I'd have them

Shaq
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Kobe

[Phoenix]

The only reason I can see people voting Magic over Bird is because of their finals head to head. I can't see what reason they would have otherwise, and to be clear I'm not saying that's a good reason. I'm just saying if you ask people who ranked Magic higher, I'm betting that's the most common reply you'll get. Bird was quite clearly better from 79 to 86, peaked higher, and Magic only ecplised him oncourt after Bird hurt his back and even then Larry was still lethal albeit diminished from his prime. For the majority of their careers Bird was better. I mean his rookie year alone shows how much of a floor raiser he was while also being a great ceiling raiser. I tend to rank in tiers moreso than strict rankings but if I had to, I would rank Bird over Magic.

[Roundball_Rock]

I feel like in regards to FMVP's, Magic's even out. He took what should've been Kareem's in 1980, but on the flip side Worthy won in '88 in a series Magic was the clear FMVP.

It does for Magic but not for Kareem and I suspect a lot of the "Magic was the man" thing is because he won 3 FMVPs and Kareem 1 (in addition to Magic, Bird being heavily marketed by the league, not Kareem or Moses).


Ironically, the final game of each series ended up deciding who won, with Magic & Worthy having GOAT level performances in each clincher.

With the caveat that Kareem actually won the FMVP vote and then people were pressured to change their vote to Magic because CBS wanted him to win (since Kareem was not there to accept the award).


Magic was the most deserving player in '82, but damn, that is one of the weakest FMVP performances ever. Magic finished 5th on the Lakers and scoring, and most surprising of all, didn't even lead the team in assists.

Agreed on all. People forget Norm Nixon was there early on and he and Magic shared play-making duties. Nixon was 17/3/8 and Magic was 18/9/9 from 1980-1983 so Nixon was basically equaling him in assists. From 1984-1987 with Nixon gone Magic would be 20/6/13.


I have a similar ranking as you. All those players you listed would be 6-11 on my all time list. I'd have them

Shaq
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Kobe

I am similar. Shaq, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Kobe, Hakeem 6-11. So Duncan is the only real discrepancy since with the others we are the same or within 1 spot.


The only reason I can see people voting Magic over Bird is because of their finals head to head.

The thing about that is when those finals were going on the near consensus was Bird was better. So it changed somewhere after the fact. Look at their MVP finishes from 1980-1988 (88' being the last year Bird was Bird):

Bird: 4th, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 2nd
Magic: N/A, 11th, 8th, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 1st, 3rd

So Magic was ahead of him only once (87'). To be fair, Magic won MVP in 89', 90' but Bird played only 6 games in 89' and by 90' was no longer a MVP guy so by then the comp for Magic had become MJ, not Bird.

It is funny Magic got zero MVP votes, Kareem won MVP but people will say Magic is why they won in 1980.

[FKAri]

As the leader of the Magic-is-overrated council, I would say yes. That being said he's still easily top 10 and the things he did well he did very well and did it in a package never seen before or since. As for the GOAT PG arguments. It's hard to put anyone over him. For those arguing Curry I would say this: Magic had a scrapiness to his game that Curry severely lacks. That ability to get a tough bucket or make a tough play when called upon and when things aren't going your way and plays are breaking down. Curry is way too rhythm and flow dependent.

If this aspect of their games was equal, I'd put Curry over Magic but the gap(in this aspect) is vast and will never be closed. That being said Curry can still catch up to him overall by having some epic runs (I mean look what 2011 did for Dirk). Curry still has a shot, albeit a slim one of catching Magic.

[Stephonit]

As the leader of the Magic-is-overrated council, I would say yes. That being said he's still easily top 10 and the things he did well he did very well and did it in a package never seen before or since. As for the GOAT PG arguments. It's hard to put anyone over him. For those arguing Curry I would say this: Magic had a scrapiness to his game that Curry severely lacks. That ability to get a tough bucket or make a tough play when called upon and when things aren't going your way and plays are breaking down. Curry is way too rhythm and flow dependent.

If this aspect of their games was equal, I'd put Curry over Magic but the gap(in this aspect) is vast and will never be closed. That being said Curry can still catch up to him overall by having some epic runs (I mean look what 2011 did for Dirk). Curry still has a shot, albeit a slim one of catching Magic.

Scrappy? Can you define that? The Warriors have come back from double digits down numerous times—in elimination games no less. Curry carried a team of conference finals first-timers to a championship. Magic didn't do that and failed even with a bunch of veterans when Kareem was no longer around. A difference I think that contributes to your kind of perspective is that Curry was the focus of the opponent's defense right from the start while Magic wasn't the go-to scorer. Magic was probably given room to suddenly go an a spurt as a scorer and that's what may make him look more scrappy. Curry probably has a better record in Game 7s.

[Phoenix]

The thing about that is when those finals were going on the near consensus was Bird was better. So it changed somewhere after the fact. Look at their MVP finishes from 1980-1988 (88' being the last year Bird was Bird):

Bird: 4th, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 2nd
Magic: N/A, 11th, 8th, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 1st, 3rd

So Magic was ahead of him only once (87'). To be fair, Magic won MVP in 89', 90' but Bird played only 6 games in 89' and by 90' was no longer a MVP guy so by then the comp for Magic had become MJ, not Bird.

It is funny Magic got zero MVP votes, Kareem won MVP but people will say Magic is why they won in 1980.

It's just weird that people(IMO) get this wrong because unlike so many of these comparison arguments, Magic and Birds careers ran parallel. By all measure this should be one of the easier arguments as opposed to comparing players who never played each other. Hence why I say, those who rank Magic higher must either be counting rings or just doing a simplistic 'Magic beat Bird 2-1 in the finals'. Bird was clearly the better prime/peak performer.

[Roundball_Rock]

It's just weird that people(IMO) get this wrong because unlike so many of these comparison arguments, Magic and Birds careers ran parallel. By all measure this should be one of the easier arguments as opposed to comparing players who never played each other. Hence why I say, those who rank Magic higher must either be counting rings or just doing a simplistic 'Magic beat Bird 2-1 in the finals'. Bird was clearly the better prime/peak performer.

Agreed. The only thing Magic has over Bird is longevity, but longevity isn't a great selling point for either one. You can't invoke longevity with Magic to justify him over Bird and then put Magic 3rd or 5th all-time. Magic was retired by 31.

[Psileas]

It's just weird that people(IMO) get this wrong because unlike so many of these comparison arguments, Magic and Birds careers ran parallel. By all measure this should be one of the easier arguments as opposed to comparing players who never played each other. Hence why I say, those who rank Magic higher must either be counting rings or just doing a simplistic 'Magic beat Bird 2-1 in the finals'. Bird was clearly the better prime/peak performer.

For a "clearly better prime/peak performer", Bird had quite a few underperformances which don't justify any such label. To put it gently, in his seasons when he was blowing out Magic in MVP votings (which means nothing as far as playoff performances are concerned), he performed no better than Magic against, e.g, the same team that Magic frequently faced in the playoffs (Sixers) or against others and all this despite Bird being his team's focal point, which inflated his stats compared to Magic. His playoff scoring career high is 43 and he's scored 40+ points just 3 times. Magic's respective numbers are better than this. His Finals career high is 34 and Magic has this beaten as well. Plus, Magic was close to 3 years younger, so, a rookie Bird would really have to be compared to 1983 Magic, a 1984 Bird to 1987 Magic and so on. How is stuff like this indicative of someone who was supposedly on a higher level as a performer? Just because the media, still living in their 70's "fundamentals first" world and seeing the chance of the "big white hope" becoming a reality loved him more and thought of Magic as a spoilt kid who was "hot-dogging" next to Kareem?
Fun fact: Magic didn't get that 42/15/7 game against the Sixers just because Kareem was missing. He got it mainly because he was totally pissed off after learning a few hours ago how few had voted him for ROY. His response to the voting was "today you'll see who the real ROY is".
Stupid/racist media still didn't learn their lesson. Magic quickly became a triple-double machine, won passing titles, won steals titles, won 3 NBA titles and 2 F.MVP's and yet he was yearly, up to 1986, getting screwed in MVP votings and, supposedly was playing at a level "way below Bird". Yeah, right. And then, in 1987, Riley said that enough was enough and decided to pass a little more scoring load on him and less on 39-40 y.o Kareem, his team instantly improved because of this and everybody suddenly woke up and realized that Magic could also score and decided he should win the MVP in a landslide. Newsflash: Magic could always score, maybe not as super consistently as an elite scorer, but easily more than he did, but he was such a team player than he accepted that he had to wait for his turn up to the time he became 27. Maybe he and Riley waited too much. When they decided so, everyone was delighted, including Kareem himself.
Imagine someone with Magic's hype having to endure such a thing nowadays. This would never happen. Today's star system needs as instant high scoring from rising stars as possible. Today, Magic might have several seasons above 25 ppg. His assists would probably never get as high as 13+, but nobody would notice or care.

[Kblaze8855]

Not even a little. On the same floor at the same time he would have just about as great an impact on who won as anyone to ever play. Magic isn’t a second class citizen no matter who else is in the conversation but too much of his game is poorly understood to make people who weren’t there understand.

[Phoenix]

For a "clearly better prime/peak performer", Bird had quite a few underperformances which don't justify any such label. To put it gently, in his seasons when he was blowing out Magic in MVP votings (which means nothing as far as playoff performances are concerned), he performed no better than Magic against, e.g, the same team that Magic frequently faced in the playoffs (Sixers) or against others and all this despite Bird being his team's focal point, which inflated his stats compared to Magic. His playoff scoring career high is 43 and he's scored 40+ points just 3 times. Magic's respective numbers are better than this. His Finals career high is 34 and Magic has this beaten as well. Plus, Magic was close to 3 years younger, so, a rookie Bird would really have to be compared to 1983 Magic, a 1984 Bird to 1987 Magic and so on. How is stuff like this indicative of someone who was supposedly on a higher level as a performer? Just because the media, still living in their 70's "fundamentals first" world and seeing the chance of the "big white hope" becoming a reality loved him more and thought of Magic as a spoilt kid who was "hot-dogging" next to Kareem?
Fun fact: Magic didn't get that 42/15/7 game against the Sixers just because Kareem was missing. He got it mainly because he was totally pissed off after learning a few hours ago how few had voted him for ROY. His response to the voting was "today you'll see who the real ROY is".
Stupid/racist media still didn't learn their lesson. Magic quickly became a triple-double machine, won passing titles, won steals titles, won 3 NBA titles and 2 F.MVP's and yet he was yearly, up to 1986, getting screwed in MVP votings and, supposedly was playing at a level "way below Bird". Yeah, right. And then, in 1987, Riley said that enough was enough and decided to pass a little more scoring load on him and less on 39-40 y.o Kareem, his team instantly improved because of this and everybody suddenly woke up and realized that Magic could also score and decided he should win the MVP in a landslide. Newsflash: Magic could always score, maybe not as super consistently as an elite scorer, but easily more than he did, but he was such a team player than he accepted that he had to wait for his turn up to the time he became 27. Maybe he and Riley waited too much. When they decided so, everyone was delighted, including Kareem himself.
Imagine someone with Magic's hype having to endure such a thing nowadays. This would never happen. Today's star system needs as instant high scoring from rising stars as possible. Today, Magic might have several seasons above 25 ppg. His assists would probably never get as high as 13+, but nobody would notice or care.

So who you believe to be the better player? Because saying someone is clearly better doesnt mean I inferred or intended to mean 'much'. Its like saying 10 is higher than 9, the former being the definitively higher number but it's a single digit difference. For me, Bird was the better player, but going to the lengths above and taking your thoughts into racial lines suggests that idea offends you somehow. Me saying Bird was better in my eyes doesnt mean Magic wasn't one of the truly elite or in a different (lower) tier.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kareem and Magic from 1982-1986 had the same problem: they both took MVP votes from each other as they often were both top 5. LeBron/Davis, Durant/Curry are other examples of this dynamic.

I agree race was a big factor in the media coverage of Kareem in the 70s (including the myth about Walton outplaying him) but how much of a factor was it in MVP voting in the 80s? These same voters later gave Magic 3 MVPs. Moses won back-to-back MVPs in the 80s and Kareem, Jordan, Dr. J all won 1 MVP in the 80s as well. As far as media in the 80s, Magic and Bird were marketed as an item. It was Kareem, Moses, and other superstars from that era who got the short end of that stick. Was there a bias towards Bird in the "Bird/Magic" coverage?

[Whoah10115]

If nothing else I think Magic would have a much harder time in the current NBA than Larry Bird. Magic was a PG and he just wouldn't be that in the modern nba the last dozen years or so, period. He's just too slow. You just can't put him in that role with the way the NBA is played. Magic in the Current NBA would probably be a jokic like PF. Making plays and scoring around the post like he does. I just don't see him being a good enough athlete or ball handler to play the same role he did in the 80s. I could see him being a great player in that kind of Jokic role, though. Larry Bird, it's easy to see being a complete baller. He was always on the move anyway. You just put him at center and there is basically almost no team that could match up against him. He'd grab rebounds, score while stretching the floor, create for others. He wouldn't be playing sf anymore, but you wouldn't even want him to as he's such a tough sturdy guy that you can put him at Center and be just fine and completely deadly because of how he could go out of the paint on both ends.


I see no reason for Magic to play PG. He'd be a SF. LeBron is more athletic, sure, but why couldn't Magic just play same position? Disregarding that Magic could easily play PG because Magic is Magic, he wouldn't struggle. He wasn't that slow or that particularly lacking in athleticism, just maybe in comparison to the average PG.

Magic would be Magic and I believe he'd be the best player in the league. His ability in the post wouldn't sag no matter what position he played. He came out of retirement, was overweight, and he did his thing off the bench. Playing most PF. But he was so much heavier than he once was, and obviously he was slower and his stamina was never gonna be as it was in the 80's.

And I still think he'd play PG. No matter where he'd play his team would run.

As far as Bird I don't disagree with any of that either, except with him playing C. He could play as a stretch C, but Dirk is 7', and even at 40 or 41 last year he wasn't playing there. Why would Larry play center?

[Phoenix]

Larry would be a stretch 4. Magic would blend into positional basketball quite seamlessly. He's not going to lineup at PG but he's in essence going to be a point forward. Really with these two locking them down into traditional positions is just playing semantics. Lebron lines up at SF but hes been his teams defector PG the bulk of his career in terms of functionality( and he officially was listed at PG his rookie year).

[Kblaze8855]

Kareem and Magic from 1982-1986 had the same problem: they both took MVP votes from each other as they often were both top 5. LeBron/Davis, Durant/Curry are other examples of this dynamic.

I agree race was a big factor in the media coverage of Kareem in the 70s (including the myth about Walton outplaying him) but how much of a factor was it in MVP voting in the 80s? These same voters later gave Magic 3 MVPs. Moses won back-to-back MVPs in the 80s and Kareem, Jordan, Dr. J all won 1 MVP in the 80s as well. As far as media in the 80s, Magic and Bird were marketed as an item. It was Kareem, Moses, and other superstars from that era who got the short end of that stick. Was there a bias towards Bird in the "Bird/Magic" coverage?


The 70s and 80s voters were not the same. Players voted until 1980. Kareem got 6mvps from the players but within a year of media voting he was 10th behind Jack Sikma. He was mvp the final season of player voting.

He was aging but the media never ****ed with Kareem like basketball people and players did. CBS literally took his 1980 finals mvp away and gave it to magic for tv purposes. One of the voters admitted it a few years ago that they made him change it and he wanted to get it off his journalistic conscience.

The media actively reduced Kareems standing in history.

[Roundball_Rock]

The 70s and 80s voters were not the same. Players voted until 1980.

I meant 80s voters but was unclear in that post. When I was talking media I meant the hype/coverage about "Walton outplaying Kareem" etc. and in the 80s was talking MVP voting. The bad coverage has stuck which is ridiculous.

It was posited that racism held down Magic's voting but Dr. J, Moses, MJ, and Magic himself won MVPs in the 80s (didn't realize the change in voters was 1980, I thought it was in the mid or late 70s). So the same people who voted for these players and Magic himself were keeping Magic's vote totals down prior to 1987? It doesn't make sense. It is possible (in theory) these players were held to a higher standard but more likely Kareem and Magic sharing votes hurt both (as did Bird being better).

It is rare for two players to be top 5 in MVP with one of them winning. Jordan did it with Pippen in 96' but that may be the only time it happened. Shaq and Kobe were both top 5 once but neither won that year.


He was aging but the media never ****ed with Kareem like basketball people and players did. CBS literally took his 1980 finals mvp away and gave it to magic for tv purposes. One of the voters admitted it a few years ago that they made him change it and he wanted to get it off his journalistic conscience.

The media actively reduced Kareems standing in history.

Agreed. It is a shame and they continue to do so. When GOAT is discussed (as it is seemingly ever day on every sports show) Kareem is not even mentioned.

The FMVP thing is really damaging. I suspect it is why people think Magic was "the man" on the team because it is 3 for Magic and 1 for Kareem and 1 for Worthy. It should have been 2 for KAJ, 2 for Magic, 1 for Worthy and we know Kareem would have won it in 84' if "Tragic Magic" doesn't happen. If it is 3 KAJ, 2 Magic, 1 Worthy Kareem is looked at differently by the subset of people who lazily look only at FMVPs.

[Whoah10115]

Kareem and Magic from 1982-1986 had the same problem: they both took MVP votes from each other as they often were both top 5. LeBron/Davis, Durant/Curry are other examples of this dynamic.

I agree race was a big factor in the media coverage of Kareem in the 70s (including the myth about Walton outplaying him) but how much of a factor was it in MVP voting in the 80s? These same voters later gave Magic 3 MVPs. Moses won back-to-back MVPs in the 80s and Kareem, Jordan, Dr. J all won 1 MVP in the 80s as well. As far as media in the 80s, Magic and Bird were marketed as an item. It was Kareem, Moses, and other superstars from that era who got the short end of that stick. Was there a bias towards Bird in the "Bird/Magic" coverage?


Did you watch the Finals? That was no myth. Walton clearly outplayed him.

[Roundball_Rock]

Did you watch the Finals? That was no myth. Walton clearly outplayed him.

Do you mean Moses in 83' (when KAJ was 36)? Walton was a role player when they met in the finals in the 80's. They met in the WCF in 77':

Kareem: 30/16/4 on 61%
Walton: 19/15/6 on 50%

It is lopsided. The series is on YouTube so anyone can check out the footage themselves but the numbers speak for themselves.

[JohnnySic]

He is somewhat overrated due to team accomplishments/accolades. A lot of that was situational. Having great teammates, having light competition in his conference for most of his run, injuries to key opponents at key times (Rockets, Celtics, Pistons) which helped him along the way.

I mean, would anyone take Magic over Hakeem, Shaq, or Duncan? I wouldn't. I dont even have to think twice about it.

[Whoah10115]

Do you mean Moses in 83' (when KAJ was 36)? Walton was a role player when they met in the finals in the 80's. They met in the WCF in 77':

Kareem: 30/16/4 on 61%
Walton: 19/15/6 on 50%

It is lopsided. The series is on YouTube so anyone can check out the footage themselves but the numbers speak for themselves.

WCF's, yes.

Yeah I even posted about this like 8 years ago. Walton dominated the game. You can post all the stats you want, but Kareem was a sieve on the defensive side, and Bill Walton literally ran the show on both sides. He's easily the best passing big man ever, and they were night and day with him or off the court.

He completely dominated the games. 30 to 19 means less than 0.

[Kblaze8855]

Walton never dominated Kareem. Even Walton’s teammates have admitted Kareem always outplayed Walton. And Walton will tell you the same( though as the most humble man alive that doesn’t mean much). Kareem did work and his backcourt got murdered. That’s just how it is. They set what would have been the single game turnover record that series but the record wasn’t official. His point had 11 one game. Kareem pretty much got doubled and tripled while his guys got killed. Kareem and Walton have both written about it. Kareem was unguardable. But that doesn’t win games when your guards can barely get the ball up the court.

[Roundball_Rock]

WCF's, yes.

Yeah I even posted about this like 8 years ago.

Yeah there was a big discussion about that series back then. Fatal9 was one of the people advocating for Kareem in that. All I can say is the games are on YouTube for anyone to see and reach their own conclusions.

Here is one of those threads. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?357931-Head-to-Head-Kareem-Abdul-Jabbar-vs-Bill-Walton


Snapper Jones on Kareem vs. Walton: "What battles? Bill lost them all. Bill Walton got his fanny kicked by Abdul-Jabbar. Kareem had no team around him. Portland killed the Lakers in the backcourt. But Abdul-Jabbar was still Abdul-Jabbar. He was great."

BTW, Walton was KAJ as GOAT.

[Kblaze8855]

This is not getting your ass kicked:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CircularHauntingInsect-size_restricted.gif



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ImperfectDeafeningIndiancow-size_restricted.gif


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GentleClearIberianbarbel-size_restricted.gif




That’s just 18 minutes of one half.

They couldn’t do shit with Kareem.

[Kblaze8855]

Unfortunately if they can triple team you without a teammate making them pay it doesn’t matter....

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PastFarKillerwhale-size_restricted.gif




Also doesn’t matter when you are destroying your matchup then your guards turn it over back to back to back....with a 4th near steal not included:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AngelicDismalAllosaurus-size_restricted.gif



To blow the lead.


Which is why Snapper Jones(blazer employee and blazers player who had retired before that very season) said:


"What battles? Bill lost them all. Bill Walton got his fanny kicked by Abdul-Jabbar. Kareem had no team around him. Portland killed the Lakers in the backcourt. But Abdul-Jabbar was still Abdul-Jabbar. He was great."

[Roundball_Rock]

:applause:

KBlaze, this came up in another thread where this time it was claimed Cowens outplayed Kareem (based on Game 7 because Cowens had 2 more points and 1 more rebound). People keep ignoring these guys needed double and triple teams against KAJ and even then Kareem was crushing them. :lol

What is your take on 83'? That keeps being used against KAJ but he was 36 against peak Moses...

[Kblaze8855]

It really is crazy. You watch games from the mid 70s and Kareem is facing the kinda doubles and triple people pretend happen today. They might straight up collapse 4 guys on him. He still ends up with 29.....loses...and it’s his fault not the fault of the guys who can’t score 4 on 3 or 2.

Kareem needed modern spacing. Nobody but Nate Thurmond and Wilt could guard him even halfway decently one on one. Not for long.

[juju151111]

For a "clearly better prime/peak performer", Bird had quite a few underperformances which don't justify any such label. To put it gently, in his seasons when he was blowing out Magic in MVP votings (which means nothing as far as playoff performances are concerned), he performed no better than Magic against, e.g, the same team that Magic frequently faced in the playoffs (Sixers) or against others and all this despite Bird being his team's focal point, which inflated his stats compared to Magic. His playoff scoring career high is 43 and he's scored 40+ points just 3 times. Magic's respective numbers are better than this. His Finals career high is 34 and Magic has this beaten as well. Plus, Magic was close to 3 years younger, so, a rookie Bird would really have to be compared to 1983 Magic, a 1984 Bird to 1987 Magic and so on. How is stuff like this indicative of someone who was supposedly on a higher level as a performer? Just because the media, still living in their 70's "fundamentals first" world and seeing the chance of the "big white hope" becoming a reality loved him more and thought of Magic as a spoilt kid who was "hot-dogging" next to Kareem?
Fun fact: Magic didn't get that 42/15/7 game against the Sixers just because Kareem was missing. He got it mainly because he was totally pissed off after learning a few hours ago how few had voted him for ROY. His response to the voting was "today you'll see who the real ROY is".
Stupid/racist media still didn't learn their lesson. Magic quickly became a triple-double machine, won passing titles, won steals titles, won 3 NBA titles and 2 F.MVP's and yet he was yearly, up to 1986, getting screwed in MVP votings and, supposedly was playing at a level "way below Bird". Yeah, right. And then, in 1987, Riley said that enough was enough and decided to pass a little more scoring load on him and less on 39-40 y.o Kareem, his team instantly improved because of this and everybody suddenly woke up and realized that Magic could also score and decided he should win the MVP in a landslide. Newsflash: Magic could always score, maybe not as super consistently as an elite scorer, but easily more than he did, but he was such a team player than he accepted that he had to wait for his turn up to the time he became 27. Maybe he and Riley waited too much. When they decided so, everyone was delighted, including Kareem himself.
Imagine someone with Magic's hype having to endure such a thing nowadays. This would never happen. Today's star system needs as instant high scoring from rising stars as possible. Today, Magic might have several seasons above 25 ppg. His assists would probably never get as high as 13+, but nobody would notice or care.

agreed, people thinks Bird js better than Magic. Lmao

[tontoz]

I would agree that Kareem gets underrated. He was more effective and more athletic than he gets credit for now.

He would really be scary in this era, basically unguardable while being a defensive beast. Teams would have a hard time trying to take advantage of him on switches because he is so long and mobile.

[Roundball_Rock]

It really is crazy. You watch games from the mid 70s and Kareem is facing the kinda doubles and triple people pretend happen today. They might straight up collapse 4 guys on him. He still ends up with 29.....loses...and it’s his fault not the fault of the guys who can’t score 4 on 3 or 2.

Kareem needed modern spacing. Nobody but Nate Thurmond and Wilt could guard him even halfway decently one on one. Not for long.

Yeah and then you have people 40+ years later saying Kareem can't be GOAT because guys couldn't score on 4 on 3 or 4 on 2 situations. What else is he supposed to do?

[juju151111]

If nothing else I think Magic would have a much harder time in the current NBA than Larry Bird. Magic was a PG and he just wouldn't be that in the modern nba the last dozen years or so, period. He's just too slow. You just can't put him in that role with the way the NBA is played. Magic in the Current NBA would probably be a jokic like PF. Making plays and scoring around the post like he does. I just don't see him being a good enough athlete or ball handler to play the same role he did in the 80s. I could see him being a great player in that kind of Jokic role, though. Larry Bird, it's easy to see being a complete baller. He was always on the move anyway. You just put him at center and there is basically almost no team that could match up against him. He'd grab rebounds, score while stretching the floor, create for others. He wouldn't be playing sf anymore, but you wouldn't even want him to as he's such a tough sturdy guy that you can put him at Center and be just fine and completely deadly because of how he could go out of the paint on both ends.
This is one of the most absurd post i have read today. Plenty of players get hidden on bad offensive players like Nash or Curry was. They would just put Magic on the spot up SG or SF. Magic would easily dominate has a PG today. Magic came back in 96 at 36 has a fat 36 year old and still put up 14, 7 and 6. Why wouldn't he be able to score around the post? And with the 3 point shooting today he finding everyone. Didn't midget ass Tony parker use to be top 5 in league at FG% in the paint.

[RogueBorg]

Unfortunately if they can triple team you without a teammate making them pay it doesn’t matter....

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PastFarKillerwhale-size_restricted.gif




Also doesn’t matter when you are destroying your matchup then your guards turn it over back to back to back....with a 4th near steal not included:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AngelicDismalAllosaurus-size_restricted.gif



To blow the lead.


Which is why Snapper Jones(blazer employee and blazers player who had retired before that very season) said:


But Abdul-Jabbar was still Abdul-Jabbar. He was great."[/I]

He couldn't steal one game against Portland? One? Was 49-win Portland that great? Was Lucius Allen that important to the 53-win Lakers?

I can understand LeBron not able to steal one game from Durant and the Warriors...but Kareem and crew versus the 1977 Trailblazer? I'm not buying.

[Psileas]

So who you believe to be the better player? Because saying someone is clearly better doesnt mean I inferred or intended to mean 'much'. Its like saying 10 is higher than 9, the former being the definitively higher number but it's a single digit difference. For me, Bird was the better player, but going to the lengths above and taking your thoughts into racial lines suggests that idea offends you somehow. Me saying Bird was better in my eyes doesnt mean Magic wasn't one of the truly elite or in a different (lower) tier.

OK, we may at least partially agree. My point is that Magic was definitely closer to Bird than their absurd ROY or MVP race margins indicated. To me, Magic receiving practically zero MVP consideration up to 1986 is something that needs to be explained. Maybe voters thought he was too young and too depandent on Kareem and that he was excessively flashy. Maybe they were repelled by Magic driving his former coach away in '81-'82 (although this doesn't explain their rookie margin) or maybe (big maybe here) a few knew about the 1980 Finals voting screw-up and, yes, maybe some really loved to see a white guy coming to Boston, dominating and resurrecting their legend (the Lakers had still only won 1 title in L.A, all the rest went back to Minny and Mikan).
Also, I know that in the 70's, players were the ones that voted, but early 80's voters still mostly grew up by the older NBA tradition, which was starting to change after the merger, but was still generally promoting substance over flash, was still big man-centric etc. David Stern would be the one to give the biggest push, but, up to him, early 80's looked like a continuation of the 70's. Dr.J was established and well loved everywhere, so, giving him an MVP certainly wouldn't hurt, Moses was another big man continuing the dominant big men's tradition, so nothing new here either, but Magic was something new. In any case, I don't see any huge margin between these 2 players early on. They weren't even a LeBron vs Durant case, they were 2 different types of elite all-around talents, the ones of Magic, however, took some time to really appreciate.

[RogueBorg]

"What battles? Bill lost them all. Bill Walton got his fanny kicked by Abdul-Jabbar. Kareem had no team around him. Portland killed the Lakers in the backcourt. But Abdul-Jabbar was still Abdul-Jabbar. He was great."

Portland's backcourt was Lionel Hollins and Dave Twardzik, not exactly great. And please don't try to sell me on the greatness of Hollins, I seen him play, he was decent.

Looking at the boxscores, the Lakers Earl Tatum scored 32 points in game 1 and Allen played in game 4 scoring 20 points both losses. I know better, Portland was not one of the all-time greats. Los Angeles should have taken at least one game.

[Kblaze8855]

Talk to snapper. He was in the building for every game. It doesn’t matter what anyone’s name was. It mattered how they played. If you have 31/9 and 8 steals does it matter if anyone knows your name in 40 years?

Virtually all accounts including those of the two people in question agree. Walton could do nothing with Kareem but the lakers guards got worked. I don’t see any reason to dispute the account I’ve heard from people in the building when it’s backed up by games online to see. Kareem, Walton, Lucas, and Snapper all have a similar account. The best player was Kareem but the blazers team was perfect.

They didn’t luck into the ring nor the 50-8 record they had in games Walton played the next season. They had incredible chemistry which I’ll happily lay at Walton’s feet but if you are taking individual matchup?

Walton couldn’t handle Kareem. And it’s no indictment. It’s Kareem.

[Phoenix]

OK, we may at least partially agree. My point is that Magic was definitely closer to Bird than their absurd ROY or MVP race margins indicated. To me, Magic receiving practically zero MVP consideration up to 1986 is something that needs to be explained. Maybe voters thought he was too young and too depandent on Kareem and that he was excessively flashy. Maybe they were repelled by Magic driving his former coach away in '81-'82 (although this doesn't explain their rookie margin) or maybe (big maybe here) a few knew about the 1980 Finals voting screw-up and, yes, maybe some really loved to see a white guy coming to Boston, dominating and resurrecting their legend (the Lakers had still only won 1 title in L.A, all the rest went back to Minny and Mikan).
Also, I know that in the 70's, players were the ones that voted, but early 80's voters still mostly grew up by the older NBA tradition, which was starting to change after the merger, but was still generally promoting substance over flash, was still big man-centric etc. David Stern would be the one to give the biggest push, but, up to him, early 80's looked like a continuation of the 70's. Dr.J was established and well loved everywhere, so, giving him an MVP certainly wouldn't hurt, Moses was another big man continuing the dominant big men's tradition, so nothing new here either, but Magic was something new. In any case, I don't see any huge margin between these 2 players early on. They weren't even a LeBron vs Durant case, they were 2 different types of elite all-around talents, the ones of Magic, however, took some time to really appreciate.

That's a fair position and I can respect that. You clearly go further back than I do so I appreciate your perspective. Good post.

[Roundball_Rock]

KBlaze, where did you get those GIFs?


Virtually all accounts including those of the two people in question agree. Walton could do nothing with Kareem but the lakers guards got worked. I don’t see any reason to dispute the account I’ve heard from people in the building when it’s backed up by games online to see. Kareem, Walton, Lucas, and Snapper all have a similar account. The best player was Kareem but the blazers team was perfect.

They didn’t luck into the ring nor the 50-8 record they had in games Walton played the next season. They had incredible chemistry which I’ll happily lay at Walton’s feet but if you are taking individual matchup?

Walton couldn’t handle Kareem. And it’s no indictment. It’s Kareem.

:applause:

This is a perfect example of why using team results to compare individual players in a team sport doesn't work. Kareem thoroughly won his match up but this isn't boxing or tennis.

[Kblaze8855]

I watched the game one day and made them because it was hilarious how Kareem was getting defended and his team was ****ing it up.

I watch everything online like that given time. And those games were online way back in the Emule days when you had to trade and take 12 hours to download. Got a lot easier when YouTube got popular.

I used to pay for a hosting service to post them on here.

[Roundball_Rock]

Cool. It is great to see in GIF form so people who won't watch the games on YT can see some footage in the thread.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Blaze - did you record/still have 80s Jordan-Bulls games?

[Kblaze8855]

I have boxes of tapes in my grandmas house but I’ve given up on digitizing most of that.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I have boxes of tapes in my grandmas house but I’ve given up on digitizing most of that.

Yeah I've digitized all my old VHS onto DVD with high-end decks. Picture clarity is cleaner too.

If you're ever interested, let me know. I can do all of that for you.

[Whoah10115]

Never said he dominated Kareem


He dominated the series, which is how he was great. He outplayed Kareem, severely.

I remember arguing with Smoke and others who conclude defending the point is always bigger than dominating 1v1. I don't see things so strictly. I understand Kareem took a lot on his back, but there are different ways to do different things. Walton outplayed him.

[bizil]

How is Magic OVERRATED??? 6'9 PG who was FRANKLY the godfather of positionless basketball! WAY WAY ahead of his time! Was LEGIT playing all five positions his rookie year in the NBA. That Finals MVP he got his rookie year PROVED he could tailor game OFFENSIVELY however he needed to. Was a pass first player at heart. BUT when he wanted or needed to, could dominate games scoring. On top of it, was the ultimate triple double threat.

And when it comes to handles, Magic had great ball control type of handles. He didn't have the ultimate flashy showtime handles. BUT he had great dexterity with the rock nonetheless. When u factor 5 rings, 3 MVPs, Finals MVPs, a ton of All Star and All NBA teams, being the face of the league with Bird, etc. how in THE HELL is Magic overrated??? His resume and impact REEKS of Mt. Rushmore status. Scary part is, he had to retire at 32 years of age. While he was still the 2nd best player in the world. Yet he accumulated the resume he did! He would have been EASILY the 1st player to have 20,000 points and 10,000 assists in a career! To this day, NOBODY still hasn't accomplished that!

[Kblaze8855]

Never said he dominated Kareem


He dominated the series, which is how he was great. He outplayed Kareem, severely.

I remember arguing with Smoke and others who conclude defending the point is always bigger than dominating 1v1. I don't see things so strictly. I understand Kareem took a lot on his back, but there are different ways to do different things. Walton outplayed him.


Neither of them see it that way. And for very good reason.

If anyone ever outplayed Kareem severely it wasn’t Bill Walton. And I love Bill Walton.

A point guard having 12 turnovers doesn’t mean his center got outplayed.

The guards got their asses kicked. Period. Not one person who was there says anything else.

[Stephonit]

How is Magic OVERRATED??? 6'9 PG who was FRANKLY the godfather of positionless basketball! WAY WAY ahead of his time! Was LEGIT playing all five positions his rookie year in the NBA. That Finals MVP he got his rookie year PROVED he could tailor game OFFENSIVELY however he needed to. Was a pass first player at heart. BUT when he wanted or needed to, could dominate games scoring. On top of it, was the ultimate triple double threat.

The first thing you go to is his physical attributes. That tends to tell me he is overrated. Next you talk about playing positionless basketball and being ahead of his time. Fair points. Then you talk about him getting an FMVP. Which proves nothing other than he had a handful of journalists favoring him. Worse in that particular instance we have an inside account basically saying Kareem was robbed because of marketing reasons. Next you say he could score—nearly all the greats can—and that he's a triple double threat. Oscar has him beat there and dare we bring up Westbrook to show what value that has?



And when it comes to handles, Magic had great ball control type of handles. He didn't have the ultimate flashy showtime handles. BUT he had great dexterity with the rock nonetheless. When u factor 5 rings, 3 MVPs, Finals MVPs, a ton of All Star and All NBA teams, being the face of the league with Bird, etc. how in THE HELL is Magic overrated??? His resume and impact REEKS of Mt. Rushmore status. Scary part is, he had to retire at 32 years of age. While he was still the 2nd best player in the world. Yet he accumulated the resume he did! He would have been EASILY the 1st player to have 20,000 points and 10,000 assists in a career! To this day, NOBODY still hasn't accomplished that!

His handles seem to be fine, but I don't see much evidence it is superior to any of his comparisons. His accolades as previously argued seem inflated coming as they did with Kareem and one or maybe two gift MVPs later in Magic's career. From my perspective Magic's 2 last championships are the ones one can be most rightfully attributed mainly to him and he was playing with James Worthy who was considered a top 50 player all-time himself at the time. His best scalp was the Bad Boy Pistons in 7 games. Compare with Kobe for example and I think Kobe comes off better. Magic's position in the top 10 is precarious to me. What he was able to do on his own looks more like a Dwayne Wade resume.

[Mr Feeny]

How did a threat about Magic Johnson get sidetracked into a discussion of the may times Kareem got his behind kicked?

Make a separate thread for all the times Moses creamed him.
Or all the times he got eliminated with homecourt advnatage.

This thread is about Magic.

[colts19]

Neither of them see it that way. And for very good reason.

If anyone ever outplayed Kareem severely it wasn’t Bill Walton. And I love Bill Walton.

A point guard having 12 turnovers doesn’t mean his center got outplayed.

The guards got their asses kicked. Period. Not one person who was there says anything else.

I remember watching that series with a friend of mine who was a really good BB player. I just recall him saying. Walton was dominating the games because his defense allowed the Portland guards to go out and pressure the laker guards, and that was the difference in the game.

[Whoah10115]

Neither of them see it that way. And for very good reason.

If anyone ever outplayed Kareem severely it wasn’t Bill Walton. And I love Bill Walton.

A point guard having 12 turnovers doesn’t mean his center got outplayed.

The guards got their asses kicked. Period. Not one person who was there says anything else.


Kareem is a beast, this I know. But I watched those games, and I stand by the first post. Defensively, in the second half of games, Kareem barely moved laterally. Maybe you could argue that he had to do too much on the offensive side and was naturally dead, but I saw it in the second quarter as well.

Walton is not gonna go at Kareem 1v1 and beat him. It's a lot like Russell vs Wilt. I'm not saying Russell generally outplayed Wilt, nor am I saying the opposite. But there are games where Wilt (in the spirit of JLauber) TOTALLY DOMINATED a PRIME Russell, and yet he didn't always outplay him in said games.

Walton ran the offense and I think his impact on the defensive end was literally in the Russell zone.

Am I saying that if they switch teams, the Lakers win? No, not really. But I am saying that Walton wouldn't have been swept, both because the Lakers would have been better and the Trail Blazers not as great. Some of that is just fit and hypothetical in a way that disregards how things are put together, but I am saying Walton clearly outplayed him in the game of 5v5. I think his impact on those games was greater.

[Roundball_Rock]

Neither of them see it that way. And for very good reason.

If anyone ever outplayed Kareem severely it wasn’t Bill Walton. And I love Bill Walton.

A point guard having 12 turnovers doesn’t mean his center got outplayed.

The guards got their asses kicked. Period. Not one person who was there says anything else.

Basically we only hear the media saying Walton outplayed him.


Walton was dominating the games because his defense allowed the Portland guards to go out and pressure the laker guards

His defense getting torched by Kareem? Walton was a shot blocker but so was Kareem. People underrated Kareem's defensive ability. His wingspan radius allowed him to recover even when he reacted slow.

[Whoah10115]

Basically we only hear the media saying Walton outplayed him.



His defense getting torched by Kareem? Walton was a shot blocker but so was Kareem. People underrated Kareem's defensive ability. His wingspan radius allowed him to recover even when he reacted slow.

That's disingenuous, and it's also a dismissal of smart people who have argued that. I didn't read any report on how Walton was better. It's not a novel idea, either.

[Kblaze8855]

They were getting 7-8 steals doing full court presses.....

The games are online. Go watch the absurd number of times the ball doesn’t even get to the front court.

There is an interview by Rick Barry of one of the blazer guards saying the lakers handled their press better that game and asking if they would adjust. That was the game the laker guards had 15 turnovers. It was seen as an improvement.

This is such a weird thing to argue about when so much of the footage is available. I’m going to Atlanta this weekend or else I’d find time to rewatch and post more examples but....they are there. I’ll get back to it another time.

Nobody ever saw me downplay Bill Walton....but he just did not play better than Kareem did. Kareem was as overwhelming as ever. But Oscar and Magic were not there to handle the full court and setup game. It matters. And the center while the key to those defenses is not why Hollins was stripping dudes straight up 80 feet from the basket.

That was just a beat down.

[Roundball_Rock]

Talk to snapper. He was in the building for every game. It doesn’t matter what anyone’s name was. It mattered how they played. If you have 31/9 and 8 steals does it matter if anyone knows your name in 40 years?

Virtually all accounts including those of the two people in question agree. Walton could do nothing with Kareem but the lakers guards got worked. I don’t see any reason to dispute the account I’ve heard from people in the building when it’s backed up by games online to see. Kareem, Walton, Lucas, and Snapper all have a similar account. The best player was Kareem but the blazers team was perfect.


That's disingenuous, and it's also a dismissal of smart people who have argued that.

The above in KBlaze's quote is what I am referring to. I did not say every single basketball fan in the country agreed.

Frankly, a lot of what I always hear for Walton sounds like spin. "Yeah Kareem crushed him, but Walton allowed X, Y, Z to happen." Even if true, it is impossible to separate what was Walton-aided and what was simply talented players doing their jobs. If a team wins when its superstar is outproduced badly by his counterpart it is not surprising the other players on the team significantly outproduced the rest of the players on the losing team. This was a sweep, not a 4-3 series too so of course the Portland players will look sterling.

[Whoah10115]

The above in KBlaze's quote is what I am referring to. I did not say every single basketball fan in the country agreed.

Frankly, a lot of what I always hear for Walton sounds like spin. "Yeah Kareem crushed him, but Walton allowed X, Y, Z to happen." Even if true, it is impossible to separate what was Walton-aided and what was simply talented players doing their jobs. If a team wins when its superstar is outproduced badly by his counterpart it is not surprising the other players on the team significantly outproduced the rest of the players on the losing team. This was a sweep, not a 4-3 series too so of course the Portland players will look sterling.


Noted, and fair enough that since I clearly can't do anything else, I'll watch the games this weekend. And read a book, cuz I need to read.

[Roundball_Rock]

Have you or anyone read the Halberstam book on the 78' Blazers? It is supposed to be awesome and presumably refers back to events in 77'. I have not but his book on MJ was great.

[Whoah10115]

Have you or anyone read the Halberstam book on the 78' Blazers? It is supposed to be awesome and presumably refers back to events in 77'. I have not but his book on MJ was great.

I haven't, but library won't work for me so will look online. Appreciate the suggestion.

[Roundball_Rock]

:cheers:

[Kblaze8855]

It is really hard to put Waltons impact into words. I have no doubt he changed games in ways we cant prove because even on the Celtics Iwatched him do it. His 2 man game with Larry is among my favorite things in basketball. I love...LOVE Bill Walton.

Im just saying.....we are talking about Kareem. That guy could only be contained. And barely at that. Kareem had off games hanging around 20/20/8 blocks that series. He was just not getting the total team support and it matters. Walton played the kinda game to generate chemistry and make a team play above its talent. I totally can get behind that. But while as humble as he is....I believe his account of his matchups with Kareem. And he has made it clear he had nothing for him. Just won by his guys outplaying Kareems. And that isnt always as simple as "making guys better". Sometimes guys do just...get outplayed.

[bizil]

The first thing you go to is his physical attributes. That tends to tell me he is overrated. Next you talk about playing positionless basketball and being ahead of his time. Fair points. Then you talk about him getting an FMVP. Which proves nothing other than he had a handful of journalists favoring him. Worse in that particular instance we have an inside account basically saying Kareem was robbed because of marketing reasons. Next you say he could score—nearly all the greats can—and that he's a triple double threat. Oscar has him beat there and dare we bring up Westbrook to show what value that has?




His handles seem to be fine, but I don't see much evidence it is superior to any of his comparisons. His accolades as previously argued seem inflated coming as they did with Kareem and one or maybe two gift MVPs later in Magic's career. From my perspective Magic's 2 last championships are the ones one can be most rightfully attributed mainly to him and he was playing with James Worthy who was considered a top 50 player all-time himself at the time. His best scalp was the Bad Boy Pistons in 7 games. Compare with Kobe for example and I think Kobe comes off better. Magic's position in the top 10 is precarious to me. What he was able to do on his own looks more like a Dwayne Wade resume.

Now you are making Magic UNDERRATED!!! His career resume DICTATES he's a LOCK top 10 GOAT. Hell MOST WHO KNOW THE GAME have Magic in their top 5 GOAT! Some of you posters just don't get it. OVERALL RESUME is what defines greatness. If u think Magic's position as a top 10 GOAT is precarious, u DON'T know the game of hoops. Your hoops acumen and understanding of the game is CASUAL FAN status AT BEST!!! U can tell by the shit u say!!

[Roundball_Rock]

Im just saying.....we are talking about Kareem. That guy could only be contained. And barely at that. Kareem had off games hanging around 20/20/8 blocks that series. He was just not getting the total team support and it matters.

That is the funny thing about the discussion of Kareem: he gets ripped for still being great in cherry picked games or series because you could not shut down Kareem and this is the best his detractors can find.

He is double and triple teamed all game (because HOF center Cowens was getting roasted in the first 6 games), puts up 26/13/4 in a Game 7 of the Finals or goes 30/16/4 on Walton in a series and these are characterized as failures by his detractors 40+ years later. If his prime (a 10 year prime!) floor was so high, what does that say about how great he was?

[EllEffEll]

Walton never dominated Kareem. Even Walton’s teammates have admitted Kareem always outplayed Walton. And Walton will tell you the same( though as the most humble man alive that doesn’t mean much). Kareem did work and his backcourt got murdered. That’s just how it is. They set what would have been the single game turnover record that series but the record wasn’t official. His point had 11 one game. Kareem pretty much got doubled and tripled while his guys got killed. Kareem and Walton have both written about it. Kareem was unguardable. But that doesn’t win games when your guards can barely get the ball up the court.

Never?

I attended one of those games in LA in 77. Walton kicked Kareem's butt as far as I was concerned. I went in ready for Kareem to dominate, and left the building blown away by how good Bill Walton played in that game. I think Kareem should have been thoroughly embarrassed by his performance on that occasion.
================================
In 1980, Kareem's performance up to the last game of the series, was deserving of him receiving the FMVP. As for a one game last game of the Finals performance, Magic in Game 6 is one for the ages, especially considering that he was a 20 year old rookie.

As for 1981 when the Lakers were underwhelming against the Rockets, it was certainly disappointing. Magic played less than half the regular season due to injury. It was ugly to watch as a Laker fan, but I can understand Magic not firing on all cylinders, and if I recall correctly, that was a quick three game series which leaves no room for error. Still, the Lakers were crap in the games played in that series.

In 1984, the whole Laker team was taken out of their rhythm by the physical play that the Celtics brought to that series (and allowed by the refs), especially after the clotheslining of Rambis by McHale. The Lakers did not have it in them to respond in kind. A big part of Magic's greatness was his ability to make anyone else on the floor a threat, even guys like Rambis and Landsberger (who would have been scrubs on most other teams). Credit to the Celtics for doing what they had to do to take the Lakers out of their game. You could say Magic was tragic in 84, but the rest of the team should share that blame.
====================
Bird vs. Magic?

Bird was "give me the ball, grab some popcorn, and watch THIS!"

Magic was more like "give me the ball, and be ready to get it right back in a better position to score."

Bird was a great passer, but it wasn't his first instinct. Magic made everyone on his team better, and an instant threat to score, as well as being able to score himself.

Both were phenomenal contributors to their team. In terms of greatness, I have them pretty even, and we were blessed to have them do what they did in the same era.
====================
Players don't play in a vacuum, and that is why statistics are only part of the equation. As for Magic being overrated, statistics should be part of the equation, but IMHO, should not be the sole arbiter when bestowing the mantle of greatness. It would be nice, easy, and convenient if stats were THE criteria for such decisions, and I suppose for some, they are. Others are free to disagree. There is no agreed upon criteria, so there will always be disagreement.
====================
Most overrated Laker IMHO: James Worthy

His jersey hanging in the rafters, kind of devalues the others it hangs with.

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is what KAJ had to say about it:


In '77 we had the best team in the league, but we lost Kermit Washington and Lucius Allen just before the playoffs, and Portland beat us four straight.

"We were playing, more or less, with four guards and me. Don Ford was out-rebounded by Maurice Lucas something like 45-12. Yet everything written said that Walton had outplayed me. Walton played a great series. I played a great series. The Trail Blazers played a great series. The Lakers played a poor one. The press tried to make it seem like I was embarrassed. Walton made one dunk shot on me, and that was supposed to have signaled the end of Abdul-Jabbar being the best."

The press has apparently changed its mind—Abdul-Jabbar is the best again—because so many things have happened to make the Lakers fun once more. "I view that with total cynicism," Abdul-Jabbar says of the press turnaround.


The games were close, the last three decided by under 6 points each, but all I read about in the papers and magazines was 'Portland Shocks LA, Walton Outduels Jabbar.' I averaged 35 points a game; I was doing everything I could do, but I was playing against tough competition and not getting great help. Maurice Lucas outrebounded Don Ford something like 50 to 12 in the four games, but the press stories read...'Walton made Kareem look terrible,' 'Walton's the greatest center to ever play the game.' There was something personal in the glee with which those opinions were reported; I felt as if another piece of me was being chipped away. I've had to deal with that blend of racism and envy my entire career...You can bet if Bill and I had both been black, you wouldn't have heard such crowing."

[Roundball_Rock]

Walton on Kareem:


Without question, no hesitation, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was the best player I ever played against. Not just the best center, he was the best player, period. He was better than Magic (Johnson), better than Larry, better than Michael (Jordan). He was my source of motivation. Everything I did was to try to beat this guy. I lived to play against him, and I played my best ball against him. No matter what I threw at him, though, it seemed like he'd score 50 against me. His left leg belongs in the Smithsonian. And it wasn't just offense. He was a great defender and rebounder, a great passer, a wonderful leader. He was phenomenal.

[RogueBorg]

How is Magic OVERRATED??? 6'9 PG who was FRANKLY the godfather of positionless basketball! WAY WAY ahead of his time! Was LEGIT playing all five positions his rookie year in the NBA. That Finals MVP he got his rookie year PROVED he could tailor game OFFENSIVELY however he needed to. Was a pass first player at heart. BUT when he wanted or needed to, could dominate games scoring. On top of it, was the ultimate triple double threat.

And when it comes to handles, Magic had great ball control type of handles. He didn't have the ultimate flashy showtime handles. BUT he had great dexterity with the rock nonetheless. When u factor 5 rings, 3 MVPs, Finals MVPs, a ton of All Star and All NBA teams, being the face of the league with Bird, etc. how in THE HELL is Magic overrated??? His resume and impact REEKS of Mt. Rushmore status. Scary part is, he had to retire at 32 years of age. While he was still the 2nd best player in the world. Yet he accumulated the resume he did! He would have been EASILY the 1st player to have 20,000 points and 10,000 assists in a career! To this day, NOBODY still hasn't accomplished that!

To this day, I have never seen a player lead the break like Magic Johnson. Players today are bigger, faster, stronger....but they can't run the floor like he could.

[Whoah10115]

Never?

I attended one of those games in LA in 77. Walton kicked Kareem's butt as far as I was concerned. I went in ready for Kareem to dominate, and left the building blown away by how good Bill Walton played in that game. I think Kareem should have been thoroughly embarrassed by his performance on that occasion.
================================
In 1980, Kareem's performance up to the last game of the series, was deserving of him receiving the FMVP. As for a one game last game of the Finals performance, Magic in Game 6 is one for the ages, especially considering that he was a 20 year old rookie.

As for 1981 when the Lakers were underwhelming against the Rockets, it was certainly disappointing. Magic played less than half the regular season due to injury. It was ugly to watch as a Laker fan, but I can understand Magic not firing on all cylinders, and if I recall correctly, that was a quick three game series which leaves no room for error. Still, the Lakers were crap in the games played in that series.

In 1984, the whole Laker team was taken out of their rhythm by the physical play that the Celtics brought to that series (and allowed by the refs), especially after the clotheslining of Rambis by McHale. The Lakers did not have it in them to respond in kind. A big part of Magic's greatness was his ability to make anyone else on the floor a threat, even guys like Rambis and Landsberger (who would have been scrubs on most other teams). Credit to the Celtics for doing what they had to do to take the Lakers out of their game. You could say Magic was tragic in 84, but the rest of the team should share that blame.
====================
Bird vs. Magic?

Bird was "give me the ball, grab some popcorn, and watch THIS!"

Magic was more like "give me the ball, and be ready to get it right back in a better position to score."

Bird was a great passer, but it wasn't his first instinct. Magic made everyone on his team better, and an instant threat to score, as well as being able to score himself.

Both were phenomenal contributors to their team. In terms of greatness, I have them pretty even, and we were blessed to have them do what they did in the same era.
====================
Players don't play in a vacuum, and that is why statistics are only part of the equation. As for Magic being overrated, statistics should be part of the equation, but IMHO, should not be the sole arbiter when bestowing the mantle of greatness. It would be nice, easy, and convenient if stats were THE criteria for such decisions, and I suppose for some, they are. Others are free to disagree. There is no agreed upon criteria, so there will always be disagreement.
====================
Most overrated Laker IMHO: James Worthy

His jersey hanging in the rafters, kind of devalues the others it hangs with.

Great post.

But a little harsh on Worthy, no? He shouldn't have been a top 50 player, but not even his number hanging?

[Smoke117]

If nothing else Magic Johnson lucked out in arriving in the perfect time. There's pretty much zero chance he would ever play pg now or over the last dozen years or so in the nba. He's just not athletic enough to do that anymore. In modern day NBA he'd probably be a PF and honestly even by PF standards he's not a particularly strong athlete. Not to say I don't think he wouldn't be great. Obviously you can't just take a player and dump him into another era and not expect him to work on what you need to in that era. If he was coming out now he'd obviously work on 3pt shooting a lot more. I can see him as like a Jokic type PF in the NBA.

[Ronin45]

In a way, yes.

But he’s also a top five player ever. Mount NBA Rushmore player.

Kobe gets shit for playing with Shaq but Magic never got shit for playing with Kareem AND Worthy.

He was an atrocious defender. Sleepy Floyd dropped 51 on him in a playoff game. And he manipulated his way to the Lakers as a rookie coming out of college.

With that said Magic, Bird, Mike and LeBron are for me the NBA Mount Rushmore.

[houston]

yes he is

[3ball]

We all agree that Magic is the goat passer

Unfortunately, that's an overrated skill

Teams pass better than any one individual.. So it's not that being able to dribble and find guys isn't valuable, but it can't be a staple and expect to beat ball movement

Ultimately, Kareem and Magic can't both be top 5 because they're only 5-4 in the Finals.. so one of them should get bumped down, and it must be Magic - Magic/Lebron's ball-dominance and weaker jumpshooting skill hurts team ceiling/Finals record, so they're ranked together down the rankings, aka borderline top 10 - MJ, Bird, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Russell, Kobe, Magic, Lebron

[tpols]

i dont think theres anything wrong with high assists given that the team has a top assist rank. like nash's suns, magic's lakers, stockton's jazz... nothing wrong with it because they were all great passing teams on top of their superstar. now if somebody is westbrooking or john wall'ing it then yea... thats bad. and we see it in the team assist ranks.

[SouBeachTalents]

We all agree that Magic is the goat passer

Unfortunately, that's an overrated skill

Teams pass better than any one individual.. So it's not that being able to dribble and find guys isn't valuable, but it can't be a staple and expect to beat ball movement

Ultimately, Kareem and Magic can't both be top 5 because they're only 5-4 in the Finals.. so one of them should get bumped down, and it must be Magic - Magic/Lebron's ball-dominance and weaker jumpshooting skill hurts team ceiling/Finals record, so they're ranked together down the rankings, aka borderline top 10 - MJ, Bird, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Russell, Kobe, Magic, Lebron
Y'all still use the Finals record thing even when they have a winning record? And when they've won FIVE fcking championships :oldlol:

Jordan losing to the Pistons 3 years in a row was not better than winning the conference, nor was it worse for Magic to make the Finals than to lose in the first round

[tpols]

Y'all still use the Finals record thing even when they have a winning record? And when they've won FIVE fcking championships :oldlol:



:roll:

3ball is the biggest playa hater of all time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHcc6mv2KLc

[3ball]

i dont think theres anything wrong with high assists given that the team has a top assist rank. like nash's suns, magic's lakers, stockton's jazz... nothing wrong with it because they were all great passing teams on top of their superstar. now if somebody is westbrooking or john wall'ing it then yea... thats bad. and we see it in the team assist ranks.

So why don't they win like their less ball-dominant peers, aka MJ, KD, Kawhi, Kobe, Bird, Dirk, Curry - 22/31 Finals record, compared to 8/20 for Lebron, Magic, Stockton...

Seems like the ball-dominators have a team ceiling/Finals record problem...:confusedshrug:

How do you explain the clear gap in Finals record over large sample

[red1]

the players I dont like are all overrated. I'd take some of the all-time small forwards like bird and lbj and just maybe even kd. I really value that shooting from kd and bird. I rank magic top-5 or borderline.


plus you have to lose a few points for unleashing that abomination on the world. Im not talking about the HIV thats fine Im talking about his son.

[MiseryCityTexas]

We all agree that Magic is the goat passer

Unfortunately, that's an overrated skill

Teams pass better than any one individual.. So it's not that being able to dribble and find guys isn't valuable, but it can't be a staple and expect to beat ball movement

Ultimately, Kareem and Magic can't both be top 5 because they're only 5-4 in the Finals.. so one of them should get bumped down, and it must be Magic - Magic/Lebron's ball-dominance and weaker jumpshooting skill hurts team ceiling/Finals record, so they're ranked together down the rankings, aka borderline top 10 - MJ, Bird, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Russell, Kobe, Magic, Lebron

Jason Kidd's passing single handedly took a bunch of scrubs to the NBA finals.

[Whoah10115]

Jason Kidd's passing single handedly took a bunch of scrubs to the NBA finals.

Kinda won that argument for life, right here.

That said 3ball will respond and explain to you why you're wrong. He's constantly getting out of his cage.

[Roundball_Rock]

Y'all still use the Finals record thing even when they have a winning record? And when they've won FIVE fcking championships :oldlol:

Jordan losing to the Pistons 3 years in a row was not better than winning the conference, nor was it worse for Magic to make the Finals than to lose in the first round

:oldlol:

Think about it, Kareem was in the finals for half his career and the conference finals 70% of his career. Magic was in the finals 9 times in 13 years and the conference finals 10 teams. Yet this is supposed to be bad!

[3ball]

Jason Kidd's passing single handedly took a bunch of scrubs to the NBA finals.

Everyone was taking scrubs to the Finals at that time - AI did it, lebron and Dwight too

So it's nothing

Ultimately, guys that average 5-7 apg have higher TEAM assists and win more in Finals - MJ, KD, Kawhi, bird, Dirk, Kobe, and Curry are 22/31 in the Finals versus only 8/20 for lebron, Magic and Stockton

Btw, MJ beat a better team in the 89' 1st round than lebron ever beat in the East, with less help than lebron ever had in his career.. 89' Cavs were #1 SRS, #2 defense, and had 3 3x all-stars plus Ron Harper... Again, that's more talent and better team than Bron ever beat in the East

[Whoah10115]

Everyone was taking scrubs to the Finals at that time - AI did it, lebron and Dwight too

So it's nothing

Ultimately, guys that average 5-7 apg have higher TEAM assists and win more in Finals - MJ, KD, Kawhi, bird, Dirk, Kobe, and Curry are 22/31 in the Finals versus only 8/20 for lebron, Magic and Stockton

Btw, MJ beat a better team in the 89' 1st round than lebron ever beat in the East, with less help than lebron ever had in his career.. 89' Cavs were #1 SRS, #2 defense, and had 3 3x all-stars plus Ron Harper... Again, that's more talent and better team than Bron ever beat in the East


Your posts suck.