Which Finals does LeBron win averaging 27/6/4 on 41% that MJ averaged in 1996?

[Mamba4Life]

Discuss

[Bankaii]

2011.

[LeCroix]

I dont guess any of them because I know LeBrone plays in a tough era of the big leagues. Think to this, LeBrone has faces players much stronger then Jerdan did.

[SouBeachTalents]

All of them

[Drey]

Well, here's some interesting stats for you:

Jordan vs Sonics in 1996 Finals: 27.3/5.3/4.2 on 53.8 TS% (age - 33).

Lebron vs Spurs in 2013 Finals: 25.3/10.9/7 on 52.9 TS% (age - 28).

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

He doesn't win in any of them

1) LeBron doesn't have a mid-range jumpshot

2) LeBron can't play off-the ball

3) He's an inferior defender

4) He has no post moves

You can only say 2011 if LeBron doesn't have a meltdown

[Shaquille O'Neal]

2007 Lebron could have at least stretched it to 6 games putting up those numbers. 22.0 PPG on 35% shooting, 23 turnovers in 4 games. Yikes. After 4 years in the league with a 2x time all-star center. Double Yikes. 4 for 20 from 3 pt. land. Triple wow.

LBJ 2007 regular season: 27.3 PPG on .476% shooting, 3.2 TO per, 32.5% 3PT%.
LBJ 2007 Finals: 22.0 PPG on 35% shooting, 5.8 TO per, 20% 3PT%.

Game 3 lost by 3. Game 4 lost by 1.

So, there's that.

[Roundball_Rock]

2011.

That is the only possibility. The variable is if LeBron is taking a lot more shots at poor efficiency that would mean reducing the quality of shots for the team as a while, especially since Wade was playing well in the series. So LeBron goes from 18 to 27 but does the team net +9? Of course not. Do they net enough to win? That is possible.

[trada7029]

Discuss
In the 2013 Finals, Lebron's 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games, thus needing Ray to force Game 7

So Jordan's 27 on 42% would've been sufficient to win in 6 and not need Ray

[Mamba4Life]

In the 2013 Finals, Lebron's 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games, thus needing Ray to force Game 7

So Jordan's 27 on 42% would've been sufficient to win in 6 and not need Ray

LeBron averaged 11 rebounds 7 assists and shot 45% from the field


That is much superior to Jordan’s 6 rebounds 4 assists and 41% shooting from the field

[Ronin45]

Probably don't get swept in 2007, maybe even win. 2011, definitely. So one less sweep, one more ring for sure, possibly two.

[trada7029]

LeBron averaged 11 rebounds 7 assists and shot 45% from the field


That is much superior to Jordan’s 6 rebounds 4 assists and 41% shooting from the field
Higher personal assists is a team choice that allows 1 guy to get most of the the assists rather than move the ball and let numerous guys get assists (and higher TEAM assists)...

Lower assist guys that get 5-7 apg have better team assists and ball movement, so they win far more than guys that get high apg (KD/Kawhi/MJ/Kobe/Bird/Dirk/Kobe are 19/24 in Finals... This destroys Lebron/Magic/Isiah/Westbrook/Harden/CP3, etc)

So assists mean nothing and are actually the most overrated/misunderstood stats in sports... Ultimately, lebron needed more POINTS to win at the end of Game 6

[Bronbron23]

Discuss



Its shit like this that makes me wonder if most of the people even know the game. For one your comparing shooting percentage between an era where you could be physical and hand check to an era where you cant. If you bring back that physicality and hand checking alot of people's shooting percentage in this era drop. Especially the players on the perimeter.

Second. Mj played in system that emphasized team play instead of one guy creating plays for the team. In these systems you can take out or reduce the best player and still be successful. Lebrons teams always suck when hes nit playing or not playing well because everything is dependent upon him. Put lebron on the spurs with pop and this wouldn't happen. This also allowed mj to win when his second best player wasnt playing well. Pip had a couple mediocre finals that the bulls still won.

Third your comparing and era that was slower and played more in a half court set where its much harder to score. What do you think would happen if you slowed the game down now to a half court set? Alot of guys would struggle to put up the same numbers they do as efficiently as they are. Bron and greek specifically rely on alot of full court up and down fast pace plays to score the way they do. Now add in the physicality to this and its even tougher.

And last is defence. Lebron when engaged is as good a defender as anyone ever. Hes not always engaged though. He has a lot of defensive lapses throughout the game. Part of this is because hes not a natural born killer like mj so that part isnt always turned on. The other part is that bron gets tired much more quickly than mj. Mj's stamina is insane.

So to answer your question alot of them.

[ImKobe]

Lebron was never the defensive player nor able to adapt to playing off-ball on offense, so he would never be able to not dominate the ball and win.

[HoopsNY]

This is non-sensical because it completely removes the fact that Jordan was guarded heavily by the DPOY that year in the finals. I don't think LeBron has ever faced a player that good defensively as a matchup in any finals losses.

And it also removes the fact that Jordan's defense directly impacted the game when Phil switches him onto Gary Payton in games 3-5. Payton didn't perform well when Mike guarded him. I'm not sure the same can be said about Lebron who didn't impact his team's defensive performances all that much in finals losses.

[Mamba4Life]

This is non-sensical because it completely removes the fact that Jordan was guarded heavily by the DPOY that year in the finals. I don't think LeBron has ever faced a player that good defensively as a matchup in any finals losses.

And it also removes the fact that Jordan's defense directly impacted the game when Phil switches him onto Gary Payton in games 3-5. Payton didn't perform well when Mike guarded him. I'm not sure the same can be said about Lebron who didn't impact his team's defensive performances all that much in finals losses.
So Jordan gets a pass cause a 6’2 guy guarded him?

[trada7029]

Lebron's 2013 Finals was much worse and he was a net negative for the series (heat lost with him on floor)

thru 3 games

Lebron 13' Finals... 16 on 39%... will need Ray to force gm 7
Jordan 96' Finals... 31 on 46%... series over

[Mamba4Life]

Lebron's 2013 Finals was much worse and he was a net negative for the series (heat lost with him on floor)

thru 3 games

Lebron 13' Finals... 16 on 39%... will need Ray to force gm 7
Jordan 96' Finals... 31 on 46%... series over

Last 3 games of series:


LeBron: 31/10/8 on 50%

Jordan: 22/4/4 on 30%

[Overdrive]

2007 and 2011. First was a sweep, but close. It would actually increase his stats.

[Roundball_Rock]

This is non-sensical because it completely removes the fact that Jordan was guarded heavily by the DPOY that year in the finals. I don't think LeBron has ever faced a player that good defensively as a matchup in any finals losses.


Kawhi is comparable to Payton.

[trada7029]

Kawhi is comparable to Payton.

Yet lebron had worse true shooting than MJ, even though MJ was planning his vacation those last 3 games

And we aren't comparing apples to apples

96' was MJ's "worst" Finals, so it should be compared to lebron's worst... Actually, lebron was pretty horrible in 13', so this will do - lol - he was a net negative for the series!! while his jumper and poor fit with Wade was famously exploited!!.. horrific stats thru 3 and 6 games... Needed teammate to close.. etc.. etc... etc

Lebron is nowhere near MJ and not a top 10 player... But keep drinking the coolaid in the face of the facts

[HoopsNY]

So Jordan gets a pass cause a 6’2 guy guarded him?

GP was 6'4" first of all, and that changes nothing in the argument. That was his worst finals performance (which was still better than LeBron's worst) and still resulted in a finals MVP, 27.3 ppg, against one of the greatest defensive players of all time.

[HoopsNY]

Kawhi is comparable to Payton.

2014 Kawhi doesn't equal 1996 GP.

[eliteballer]

With or without Steroids?

[Axe]

With or without headband? 🤔

[Manny98]

LeBron never had the luxury to shoot so pathetically from the field and still come out with the win

He never had the greatest offensive rebounder the league has ever seen to gobble up all of his misses

So 0

[999Guy]

I have a hard time believing Jordan was better than David Robinson at all that season. And possibly even Shaq.

If Nate McMillan, the SuperSonic best overall defender, doesn’t get injured in the 96 Finals. That series, is way, way closer.

The Supersonic played at a 73 win pace with him in the lineup that season. 52 win pace without.

McMillan was essentially everything people thought Payton was. Payton was underrated on offense however.

I would’ve liked to see how many wins Seattle ends up with if Detlef and Nate don’t get injured.

[LeCroix]

Lebron was never the defensive player nor able to adapt to playing off-ball on offense, so he would never be able to not dominate the ball and win.

But think to this, when you say direct opppsite info howndoes it make you feel to lie. Jerdan never have any great defensive showings for his playoff years. Post his best I dare it

[LeCroix]

So Jordan gets a pass cause a 6’2 guy guarded him?

Some say 6'2 or 6'2.5

[DoctorP]

branball = stats
branball = losing

[Soundwave]

The 96 Finals was the Bulls Magic series.

The Sonics were just an after thought.

Jordan played well when it mattered ... first 3 games, 31 ppg, including 36 points in game 3 on Seattle's home floor to basically seal the series. Bulls up 3-0.

Yeah the team as a whole kinda took the foot off the pedal after that, but Seattle was never in a billion years coming back from down 0-3. They let the Sonics have salvage some pride and then toasted them off in Chicago to celebrate on their home floor.

Series was over after game 3, the final three games weren't up to Jordan's usual NBA Finals standard, but it didn't matter. No team in the history of the league has come back from 0-3 and the Sonics sure as f*ck weren't gonna be the first.

[Smoke117]

The 96 Finals was the Bulls Magic series.

The Sonics were just an after thought.

Jordan played well when it mattered ... first 3 games, 31 ppg, including 36 points in game 3 on Seattle's home floor to basically seal the series. Bulls up 3-0.

Yeah the team as a whole kinda took the foot off the pedal after that, but Seattle was never in a billion years coming back from down 0-3. They let the Sonics have salvage some pride and then toasted them off in Chicago to celebrate on their home floor.

Series was over after game 3.

The Sonics were better than the Magic all season so not really.

[Soundwave]

The Sonics were better than the Magic all season so not really.

Better record, but the better match up, no.

People may not remember now, but Orlando was supposed to be the next dynasty in the NBA, even when the Bulls hit 72 wins there was still a lot of people saying "well it's a nice record to have, but they can still be beaten by Shaq and Penny".

If ISH existed back circa May 1995, that's basically what it would be flooded with a bunch of Penny-stans saying Jordan can't beat the Magic when it mattered.

Seattle series was just a joke. No one, not even Payton's mama picked them to win that series and after it was 3-0 ... lol, that sh*t was just a "lets get out of rainy ass Seattle so we can go win with the fans in Chicago".

To their credit, Seattle didn't just roll over and die, but there's no way they were ever coming back down 0-3, least of all to the freaking '96 Bulls.

[Smoke117]

Better record, but the better match up, no.

People may not remember now, but Orlando was supposed to be the next dynasty in the NBA, even when the Bulls hit 72 wins there was still a lot of people saying "well it's a nice record to have, but they can still be beaten Shaq and Penny".

If ISH existed back circa May 1995, that's basically what it would be flooded with a bunch of Penny-stans saying Jordan can't beat the Magic when it mattered.

Seattle series was just a joke. No one, not even Payton's mama picked them to win that series and after it was 3-0 ... lol, that sh*t was just a "lets get out of rainy ass Seattle so we can go win with the fans in Chicago".


They didn’t beat a healthy Magic team either, though. Grant played only one hurt and ineffective game in the series after killing the Bulls in the 95 playoffs.

[Soundwave]

They didn’t beat a healthy Magic team either, though. Grant played only one hurt and ineffective game in the series after killing the Bulls in the 95 playoffs.

Orlando could've had two Horace Grant's, they weren't gonna win that series either.

To be honest, even '95 really Orlando probably should've lost that series. The Bulls gifted them both game 1 and game 6. They were in control of both those games late and pissed them away uncharacteristically. That wasn't gonna happen in '96 with Jordan in full basketball shape.

But at the time the narrative was Shaq and Penny were the next Kareem and Magic and Jordan and the Bulls were finished/done/over.

[SouBeachTalents]

Orlando could've had two Horace Grant's, they weren't gonna win that series either.

To be honest, even '95 really Orlando probably should've lost that series. The Bulls gifted them both game 1 and game 6. They were in control of both those games late and pissed them away uncharacteristically. That wasn't gonna happen in '96 with Jordan in full basketball shape.

But at the time the narrative was Shaq and Penny were the next Kareem and Magic and Jordan and the Bulls were finished/done/over.
I wouldn't pick them to beat the Bulls even with Grant, but you can't downplay that injury like it didn't make a difference. The Magic were 50-13 with Grant in the lineup, only 10-9 without him. They had gone 7-1 the first two rounds of the playoffs, with Grant playing some of the best ball of his career, averaging 17/12 on 66% heading into the conference finals. Add on the fact he had played such a critical role in beating Chicago the year before, his injury definitely had an impact on the series.

The series was so one sided I'm not gonna say him playing is enough to change the outcome, but it could've definitely made things much more competitive. Ditto if Karl has Payton guard Jordan from the outset of the Finals

[Soundwave]

I wouldn't pick them to beat the Bulls even with Grant, but you can't downplay that injury like it didn't make a difference. The Magic were 50-13 with Grant in the lineup, only 10-9 without him. They had gone 7-1 the first two rounds of the playoffs, with Grant playing some of the best ball of his career, averaging 17/12 on 66% heading into the conference finals. Add on the fact he had played such a critical role in beating Chicago the year before, his injury definitely had an impact on the series.

The series was so one sided I'm not gonna say him playing is enough to change the outcome, but it could've definitely made things much more competitive. Ditto if Karl has Payton guard Jordan from the outset of the Finals

It maybe makes it a 5 game series I think, but that Bulls team was far better than the 95 squad and they weren't going to bail Orlando out with late game mistakes again. Horace Grant wasn't gonna do a damn thing about that.

[Overdrive]

It maybe makes it a 5 game series I think, but that Bulls team was far better than the 95 squad and they weren't going to bail Orlando out with late game mistakes again. Horace Grant wasn't gonna do a damn thing about that.

You Jordan homera are something else. Grant missing freed up Rodman. Grant playing would've meant that you either sacrifice defense on Shaq or him. Grant wasn't a big creator, but leaving him checked by some nobody or Kukoc would have meant a surefire double double with 15 to 20 points. But not only that. It would've meant to draw defensive attention away from Shaq.

[Lebron23]

Only the 2011 NBA Finals. LeBron was not aggressive in that series. Since 2012 he's been a good finals performer.

[Soundwave]

You Jordan homera are something else. Grant missing freed up Rodman. Grant playing would've meant that you either sacrifice defense on Shaq or him. Grant wasn't a big creator, but leaving him checked by some nobody or Kukoc would have meant a surefire double double with 15 to 20 points. But not only that. It would've meant to draw defensive attention away from Shaq.

Anyone with two eyes can see Orlando wasn't going to win that series. Horace Grant isn't worth 4 wins on his own in any series, maybe 2 at best.

To be honest even 1995 ... Bulls pissed that series away more than anything. They were up late in both game 1 and game 6 and those are games they almost always close out.

96 Bulls weren't gonna give Orlando any of those breaks.

But really in the end that just made the 95-96 season that much sweeter, can't really write that season any better.

[Roundball_Rock]

To be honest, even '95 really Orlando probably should've lost that series.

They got beat soundly. They had no answer on the inside for Shaq and Grant. The Bulls' leading rebounders were their SF and SG. :lol This is why they had to gamble on Rodman, who was seen as such a cancer then that his trade value was Will Perdue.


The Sonics were just an after thought.

That is an exaggeration. Seattle won 64 games (Orlando 60) and looked like they finally were converting their regular season success (55+ wins every year since 93') to playoff success behind two (seemingly) rising young stars in Payton and Kemp. Not exactly Shaq and Penny of course but Seattle had more depth. Schrempf was always better than a Nick Anderson (and 96' Anderson was a shook guy who never recovered from his 95' finals choke job, like Starks didn't after 94') and Hawkins better than Dennis Scott. There was no equivalent of Sam Perkins coming off the bench for Orlando. Seattle had better coaching.

What Orlando had is the wild card of having 2 superstars in the event one or both went off in the series which makes them uniquely dangerous (similar to why Houston is more dangerous than Denver or Utah this year).

You also make too much out of Orlando being better than Seattle. Orlando went 1-7 against the Bulls that year, Seattle 3-5.

[Carbine]

He averaged 31 ppg on high efficiency to make it 3-0

The series was over at that point.

[Roundball_Rock]

He averaged 31 ppg on high efficiency to make it 3-0

The series was over at that point.

Yes, if a 70+ win team builds a lead that has never been erased before in the finals they surely will win. ;)

[Carbine]

You aren't beating that Bulls team 4 straight times, especially the final two games being at Chicago. It was over - and it was.

[Roundball_Rock]

You aren't beating that Bulls team 4 straight times, especially the final two games being at Chicago. It was over - and it was.

Probably but they didn't lose on purpose to win at home because you don't take chances in the finals (even as the superior team because injuries can happen). It is a lame excuse for MJ struggling with Payton on him the final three games. In Game 6 he went 5 for 19 when they were "trying" again.

First three games: 31 points, 46 fg%, 50 3fg%, 12.3 FTA.
Last three games: 23.7 points, 36.7 fg%, 11.1 3fg% 10 FTA.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2014/08/21/how-putting-gary-payton-on-michael-jordan-sooner-could-have-changed-the-1996-nba-finals/

It happened. He had a handful of "bad" series in his career (by his standards). So what? Everyone did.

[Carbine]

If that's his bad series, no wonder he's the unanimous GOAT.