Kareem vs Lebron (The definitive case for Lebron) [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Mr Feeny

04-28-2020, 06:30 AM

People often debate how those 2 are ranked in the 2nd and 3rd spots on the all time list. As far as I'm concerned, a lot of the hesitation to rank Lebron ahead of Kareem (a guy most haven't watched) is the cumulative totals and championships that the latter accumulated during his career.

I feel as though most have given Kareem the leeway that Lebron hasn't been granted, when discussing their all time rankings. Very little is pointed about Kareem's struggles during his peak, while Lebron is constantly excoriated for his failures.

In the interest of fairness, we should examine Kareem' career with the same stringent approach that we do so with Lebron. Let's preface this by pointing out that neither player should be blamed for losing when he played well and happened to lose to a better team. Neither should Kareem he criticized for some of his poor play when he was an older man, who played longer than most players did.

Lebron:

Lebron's "failures" wre mainly his 3 year stretch from 2009 to 2011. The first two are asinine criticisms, because he was outstanding and happened to lose to better teams, while playing well himself. Lebron average 38.5 ppg, 8apg, and 8 rpg against the Magic and was constantly criticized for losing despite that fact that he had one of the greatest individual performances in a series ever. He was similarly criticised the following year. While every criticism based on the Dallas series in 2011 is fair, the backlash he got for his play for the 2 prior years wasn't consistent with the relatively non existent criticism that Kareem got for having the exact same "failures" during his prime.

Kareem
Let's look at Kareem's play starting from 1972 onwards:

1972:
The Bucks are defending champions and face the Golden State Warriors. Kareem allowed a defensive specialist (Nate Thurmond) to increase his scoring average from 21 in the regular season to 25 against him while having his own scoring drop from 35 ppg in the regular season to 23 ppg that series. A whopping 12 point drop. While allowing his opposing center to increase his scoring and outscore him.

1973:

Thurmond is a year older and as an aging man holds Kareem to 23 ppg again. Kareem outplayed the old man this time but has a horrific game 5. With the series tied and 2-2, Kareem goes 8-24 from the field and only 3-10 from the line. In a 3 point loss, Kareem's number of free throw misses was almost double the point spread. The Warriors go on to close it out in 6. Kareem loses with home court advantage.

Keep in mind that a 4th year Lebron faced the same situation against the 2007 Pistons and came up big in that pivotal game 5, with 48 points, including 25 straight points at the end of the game to win thr game and then allow the Cavs to close it out the next game. 4th year Kareem didn't fair as well over here.

1974:

The Bucks improve their record to 59 wins and reach the NBA finals against the Celtics. With homecourt advantage, Kareem has a game 7, at home, with everything to play for. In the biggest game of the season, Kareem is outplayed by Dave Cowens, outscored and out rebounded by Cowens who ends up with a higher efficiency.

With everything to play for, he struggled in the most important game of the season. And again, for the 2nd consecutive season, is eliminated with homecourt advantage.

Mr Feeny

04-28-2020, 06:31 AM

1975:
Oscar retires in the 74 off season and the Bucks - who retain their 2nd and 3rd top scorers - see their win total plummet to 38. A year after having a game 7 in the finals , they miss the playoffs completely. Kareem was dead smack in the middle of his prime here, at 27 years of age.

-----

1976:

Kareem goes to the Lakers after missing the playoffs. The bucks suffer no dip as their record remains at 38 wins after Kareem leaves. The Lakers miss the playoffs in Kareem's first season there and Kareem wins the MVP with a 40-42 record. He was 28.

1977:

Kareem and the Lakers face the Blazers as the top seed and are promptly swept, despite having homecourt advantage, by a Blazers team that consisted of Walton and no other hall of fame players.

Let's recap. In a 5 year stretch in his absolute prime, Kareem missed the playoffs twice and lost with homecourt advantage the other 3 times.

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1978 and 1979: The Lakers lose against Seattle both times but Kareem plays well and doesn't really deserve criticism for losing against a better team.

-----

1980:

Magic comes to the Lakers and immediately improves their record from 47 wins to 60 and leads the Lakers to the title in game 6 of the finals while Kareem was injured.

----

1981:
The Lakers, as defending champions, lose to a 40 win Rockets team in the first round. Kareem is outscored and out rebounded by Moses Malone. Kareem was 33 here, and Moses had just turned 26. Still in the backend of his prime, this was as close to inexcusable as you can get.

----

1982:
Kareem has a relatively pedestrian playoff run and Magic leads the team to the title. A plus for Kareem, in the grand scheme of things. Another title, and good supporting role play.

----

1983:
Another black mark. His nemesis, Moses Malone, is traded to the Sixers, the Sixers - who had lost to the Lakers in 6 the previous year - sweep the Lakers this time as Malone outscores Akreem again. More saliently, he rebounds Kareem by 18 rpg to 7.5 rpg. Had had more than quintuple Kareem' 5 offensive rebounds per game and outplayed the older legend.

Lebron, as an older player,somewhat held his own against Durant when they went head to head in those Cavs vs Warriors finals. This wasn't the case when Kareem came up against Moses. One guy clearly outplayed the other.

----

1988:
Kareem really shouldn't be criticised for his poor play here (4 points on 2/7 shooting, 3 rebounds, 3 turnovers, and 5 fouls) but by the same token, he shouldn't be getting as much credit as he does for his relatively weak contribution to that title
When Lebron gets criticized for having Allen and irving "save his legacy", we must not forget that he was the driving force behind those titles and that other all time greats who didn't play nearly as well during their runs, don't get nearly as much criticism.

Lebron23

04-28-2020, 06:36 AM

Solid Posts. If LeBron wins his 4th finals MVP. He definitely surpass Kareem. Right now they are 2a and 2b.

Mr Feeny

04-28-2020, 06:41 AM

Final thoughts:

If we apply the same standards to Kareem that we whe critiquing Lebron, we'd see that there are more black marks on his resume when he was in his prime than Lebron has.

Lebron gets criticised for his play against the Mavricks in 2011 and rightly so, but those who criticize him for his play in 2009 and 2010 and insist that he shouldn't he catapulted above Kareem in the all time rankings either don't know about Kareem' similar tribulations, or are just biased. In a 5 year stretch in the middle of his prime, Kareem missed the playoffs twice and lost with homecourt advnatage 3 times, including a sweep. He got outplayed badly by Moses Malone and knocked out of the playoffs by him twice, whereas Lebron atleast held his own when be faced Kawhi and Durant.

Kareem gets praised for his longevity and should. He was playing at a high level at an age when most players turn into shells of themsleves, but it doesnt mean that we extrapolate backwards and attribute to him a higher level of peak play than he actually had. Prime Kareem won the title once in 10 years and had several failures during the years he didn't, inasmuch as he let himself and his team down in high leverage moments. Game 5's with the series tied. Game 7's and so forth.

Lebron James is a better player than Kareem was. If we apply the same standards of criticism, it becomes obvious to see.

Manny98

04-28-2020, 06:41 AM

Good post :applause:

Kareem,Magic,Wilt and Bird actually have way more blemishes on their legacy than LeBron does which everyone seems to kind of ignore for some reason whilst LeBron gets viewed under a microscope

Kareems only real argument is his longevity, in terms of peak play he's not even in the same tier as LeBron or Jordan

I mean dude literally missed the playoffs twice in his absolute peak :facepalm

And he wasn't even the best player on his team for 4/6 championships

Kblaze8855

04-28-2020, 06:56 AM

.......nah.

OrlandoMagicGuy

04-28-2020, 07:06 AM

AussieSteve

04-28-2020, 07:16 AM

Mr Feeny

04-28-2020, 07:25 AM

There is no point to anyone taking any of OP seriously. Case in point is the above, which shows there's no integrity behind your research.

In 75, the Bucks were 35-30 with Kareem playing but went 3-14 while he sat out with injury. Are you really going to blame him for them missing the playoffs?

Lebron gets blamed for missing the playoffs last year despite the fact that he was injured. Jordan gets blamed by his haters for missing the playoffs in 2002 despite missing time. Kobe gets blamed for missing the playoffs in 2005 despite missing games. The most important thing is consistency. Otherwise, if you plan to get pedantic and look at partial records that don't encopass the entire season, you have to do the same with everyone else.

Mr Feeny

04-28-2020, 07:28 AM

Kareem is the 2nd GOAT he has the rings/stats/accolades/records/longevity,but what puts Jordan above him is the fact that he won all 6 championships as the #1 option,three-peated twice in the 90s while also leading the NBA in scoring and making the all-defensive first team,and this was with less help than what Kareem or LeBron had.LeBron has no case over either of them.

Lebron has 3 as lead dog vs Kareem's 2. He also has the stats. Cumulative total /= better stats. Lebron has the higher PER, if I'm not mistaken. As well as a higher win share per 48. I'll have to look that up. This isn't the discussion here. It isn't really obscure simple counting stats. It's about using the same approach when critizing both. Lebron doesn't have the failures that Kareem had.

Shaquille O'Neal

04-28-2020, 08:20 AM

Kareem
Let's look at Kareem's play starting from 1972 onwards:

1972:
The Bucks are defending champions and face the Golden State Warriors. Kareem allowed a defensive specialist (Nate Thurmond) to increase his scoring average from 21 in the regular season to 25 against him while having his own scoring drop from 35 ppg in the regular season to 23 ppg that series. A whopping 12 point drop. While allowing his opposing center to increase his scoring and outscore him.

1973:

Thurmond is a year older and as an aging man holds Kareem to 23 ppg again. Kareem outplayed the old man this time but has a horrific game 5. With the series tied and 2-2, Kareem goes 8-24 from the field and only 3-10 from the line. In a 3 point loss, Kareem's number of free throw misses was almost double the point spread. The Warriors go on to close it out in 6. Kareem loses with home court advantage.

Keep in mind that a 4th year Lebron faced the same situation against the 2007 Pistons and came up big in that pivotal game 5, with 48 points, including 25 straight points at the end of the game to win thr game and then allow the Cavs to close it out the next game. 4th year Kareem didn't fair as well over here.

1974:

The Bucks improve their record to 59 wins and reach the NBA finals against the Celtics. With homecourt advantage, Kareem has a game 7, at home, with everything to play for. In the biggest game of the season, Kareem is outplayed by Dave Cowens, outscored and out rebounded by Cowens who ends up with a higher efficiency.

With everything to play for, he struggled in the most important game of the season. And again, for the 2nd consecutive season, is eliminated with homecourt advantage.

Kareem joined the league in 1969. So he won it all his 2ndNBA season. Yet Lebron, after playing four full seasons, crapped the bed in the 2007 Finals. Got swept, many of the games were very close. Lebron played significantly worse in that series than he did in the regular season. As many as 8 turnovers per game, 22.0 PPG on 35% shooting.
Meanwhile 2-3rd year Kawhi, Kareem, Kobe all won the chip. 2007 has to be counted against Lebron if you're going to count 1972/73 against Kareem.

Turbo Slayer

04-28-2020, 08:27 AM

Kareem joined the league in 1969. So he won it all his 2ndNBA season. Yet Lebron, after playing four full seasons, crapped the bed in the 2007 Finals. Got swept, many of the games were very close. Lebron played significantly worse in that series than he did in the regular season. As many as 8 turnovers per game, 22.0 PPG on 35% shooting.
Meanwhile 2-3rd year Kawhi, Kareem, Kobe all won the chip. 2007 has to be counted against Lebron if you're going to count 1972/73 against Kareem. So you criticize LeBron for losing in the 2007 Finals?

Manny98

04-28-2020, 08:37 AM

Kareem joined the league in 1969. So he won it all his 2ndNBA season. Yet Lebron, after playing four full seasons, crapped the bed in the 2007 Finals. Got swept, many of the games were very close. Lebron played significantly worse in that series than he did in the regular season. As many as 8 turnovers per game, 22.0 PPG on 35% shooting.
Meanwhile 2-3rd year Kawhi, Kareem, Kobe all won the chip. 2007 has to be counted against Lebron if you're going to count 1972/73 against Kareem.
You're just going to ignore the fact that Kareem had Oscar by his side, Kobe had Shaq and Kawhi had Duncan coming into the league :facepalm

OrlandoMagicGuy

04-28-2020, 08:40 AM

Lebron has 3 as lead dog vs Kareem's 2.But Kareem performed better than Magic in those early championship runs so he was robbed of a few mvps in the finals.

SouBeachTalents

04-28-2020, 08:42 AM

But Kareem performed better than Magic in those early championship runs so he was robbed of a few mvps in the finals.
1980 definitely, the next 2 were debatable, I would've probably said Magic was better. The last 2 weren't even close, Kareem was a role player by then

Shaquille O'Neal

04-28-2020, 08:53 AM

You're just going to ignore the fact that Kareem had Oscar by his side, Kobe had Shaq and Kawhi had Duncan coming into the league :facepalm

I'll give you Shaq for Kobe. Duncan was 38 though in the 2014 series during Kawhi's 2nd year FMVP. All I'm saying is age 22 Kobe/Kawhi/Duncan/Kareem went to the finals and won. Played better or at least as well as they did in the regular season. LBJ's numbers were way down and they lost. I didn't expect Lebron to win in 07, but 22PPG on 35% shooting? 23 turnovers in 4 games? 4 for 20 from 3? 20/29 FT? Lebron was a disaster, and had 4 full years under his belt.

Phoenix

04-28-2020, 09:10 AM

So you criticize LeBron for losing in the 2007 Finals?

I don't think either Lebron or the Cavs in 2007 were actually ready to be in the finals, and in a stronger east ( like in 2008, 2009, 2010) they wouldn't have been in such a position. I don't buy into the youth/experience angle commonly used as an excuse, because that didn't seem to be a hindrance through the east playoffs. It sure as hell wasn't a hindrance when he went off against Detroit.

Turbo Slayer

04-28-2020, 09:21 AM

I don't think either Lebron or the Cavs in 2007 were actually ready to be in the finals, and in a stronger east ( like in 2008, 2009, 2010) they wouldn't have been in such a position. I don't buy into the youth/experience angle commonly used as an excuse, because that didn't seem to be a hindrance through the east playoffs. It sure as hell wasn't a hindrance when he went off against Detroit.

I agree. The 2007 Finals loss against LeBron shouldn't be used as a major boost to LeBron''s legacy but it shouldn't be used as criticism or a stain on his legacy either.

The fact that he was able to eliminate a good Pistons team and carried the whole team to the Finals with Larry Hughes as his 2nd option is amazing and he deserves credit for that.

OrlandoMagicGuy

04-28-2020, 09:28 AM

SouBeachTalents

04-28-2020, 09:54 AM

LeBron had no business being in the 2007 finals,the eastern conference was obviously weaker than the western conference.The West had Kobe's Lakers/Duncan's Spurs/Nash's Suns/Carmelo's Nuggets/Deron's Jazz/Yao's Rockets.
'07 was just a weak year for the league. You had 3 legitimate contenders (Spurs, Suns, Mavs), one of whom was beaten badly by an 8 seed

I don't think either Lebron or the Cavs in 2007 were actually ready to be in the finals, and in a stronger east ( like in 2008, 2009, 2010) they wouldn't have been in such a position. I don't buy into the youth/experience angle commonly used as an excuse, because that didn't seem to be a hindrance through the east playoffs. It sure as hell wasn't a hindrance when he went off against Detroit.
LeBron honestly didn't even go off against Detroit. That Game 5 performance has created such a misconception about his playoff run, where people are now under the impression he put forth some herculean effort to take the Cavs to the Finals. Outside of Game 5, he only averaged 21 ppg the rest of the series. You could legitimately argue '07 was LeBron's worst playoff run. The fact he could take that weak of a team to the Finals, not even playing that well, only emphasizes how awful the conference was that season.

And btw Phoenix, what I said doesn't apply to you, it's just how I feel people look back at it now in general

Roundball_Rock

04-28-2020, 09:59 AM

This is really weak. You cherry picked some games and stats. Let's look at the 1974 finals against Cowens (a HOF player, not the cream puffs some other legends faced in the finals) as an example:

Kareem: 33/12/5 on 52%
Cowens: 23/10/5 on 44%

Basketball is a team sport. How did their best teammates do?

Havlicek: 26/8/5 on 43%
Oscar: 12/4/8 on 43%

It is true Cowens outscored and outrebounded Kareem in Game 7--by 2 points and 1 rebound. :lol Anyone who watches that series will see the immense defensive attention the Celtics put on Kareem. Cowens did not have to deal with anything close to that. So it took Kareem getting doubled and tripled all the time to "hold" him to 33/12/5.

Kareem is the GOAT. LeBron is top 5 so he has a case over him but it is a weak one. Where does LeBron exceed KAJ? Kareem has the better resume across the board. Kareem has 6 MVPs (1st), LeBron 4 (tied for 4th). They both had similarly long runs as the best player. Kareem was a MVP level player for 17 years and legit all-star for 18. LeBron may catch or surpass him in these but has yet to do so. Kareem probably was more dominant in his prime but I can see the argument for LeBron.

in terms of peak play he's not even in the same tier as LeBron or Jordan

Kareem (1970-1980): 28/14/5 with 4 blocks and a steal.
Jordan (1987-1998): 32/6/5 with 3 steals and a block.
LeBron (2006-2016): 28/7/7 with 2 steals and a block.

It is funny how the center matches the guard in assists. Jordan scores more--but on a ton more shots. He takes 24 a game, Kareem 21 and LeBron 20. Kareem has the most unstoppable move in history, they don't.

MVPs: Kareem 6, Jordan 5, LeBron 4. So the less dominant guy won more MVPs?

I mean dude literally missed the playoffs twice in his absolute peak

His team went 3-14 without him (14 win pace) but 35-30 with him (44 win pace) in 75'. They missed it in 76' in LA under a weird rule. They had a top 4 record but 2 teams from each division got in so they missed out. This was after LA gave up an all-star, a 16/11 center, and the #2 and #8 picks for him. It is unfortunate Kareem gets hit for team results in the 70's because he did right by Milwaukee. He could have left as a free agent and joined an intact team like LeBron and others.

And he wasn't even the best player on his team for 4/6 championships

1982: Kareem 25/11/5 at age 34, Magic 19/10/10 at age 22. Magic 8th in MVP, Kareem 10th as they get only token votes. Nixon is 18/2/8 and Wilkes 21/5/2.

1985: Kareem 22/8/3 at age 37, Magic 18/6/13 at age 25. Magic 2nd in MVP, Kareem 4th but they are in a close pack with Moses (206-264 votes) far behind Bird's 763.

Kareem was who the offense was run through until the 1987 season but you could argue an ancient Kareem was equal to prime Magic from 1982-1986. The same argument can be thrown back at LeBron this year with Davis, though...

The last 2 weren't even close, Kareem was a role player by then

He wasn't a role player in 1987. He averaged 18 ppg in the season, 19 ppg in the playoffs, and 22 in the finals. In 1988 he was a role player but that was year 19 and he was 39 years old. He was no longer MVP caliber in 87' but still a legit all-star.

Roundball_Rock

04-28-2020, 09:59 AM

but what puts Jordan above him is the fact that he won all 6 championships as the #1 option,three-peated twice in the 90s

In other words, he is better because he had a better team and weak competition on opposing teams. Was MJ the GM and coach?

Kareem never faced less than 3 HOF players. Jordan faced 1 HOF in half his finals.

You're just going to ignore the fact that Kareem had Oscar by his side

True, but Oscar was 19/6/8 in his first year in Milwaukee and 13/4/6 when they made the finals again in 74'. He was 31/13/12 at his peak for context.

Phoenix

04-28-2020, 10:21 AM

'07 was just a weak year for the league. You had 3 legitimate contenders (Spurs, Suns, Mavs), one of whom was beaten badly by an 8 seed

LeBron honestly didn't even go off against Detroit. That Game 5 performance has created such a misconception about his playoff run, where people are now under the impression he put forth some herculean effort to take the Cavs to the Finals. Outside of Game 5, he only averaged 21 ppg the rest of the series. You could legitimately argue '07 was LeBron's worst playoff run. The fact he could take that weak of a team to the Finals, not even playing that well, only emphasizes how awful the conference was that season.

And btw Phoenix, what I said doesn't apply to you, it's just how I feel people look back at it now in general

Yes, I know that 2007 Lebron's playoff run wasn't particularly epic outside of that game that everyone remembers. If memory serves his east playoff run was something like 25ppg on 44% or something to that effect. We're not talking otherworldly performance there. I mean, Lebron in 2008/9/10 was a better player and didn't get to the finals. I've always looked at that run as somewhat of an aberration and an indictment of the east that season. It was an inbetween year between the Pistons and Heat coming off their peak window as contenders and before the rise of the Celtics and Dwights Orlando squad. So we agree on that premise.

When I look back at that time period Wade was actually having better runs both in 2005( before he got injured) and 2006. People remember Wade's 2006 finals, but Wade 'arrived' as a big playoff gamer the season before ( and showed flashes as a rookie even with other veterans around him). You're a Heat guy so you no doubt don't need to be sold on that idea.

SouBeachTalents

04-28-2020, 10:30 AM

Yes, I know that 2007 Lebron's playoff run wasn't particularly epic outside of that game that everyone remembers. If memory serves his east playoff run was something like 25ppg on 44% or something to that effect. We're not talking otherworldly performance there. I mean, Lebron in 2008/9/10 was a better player and didn't get to the finals. I've always looked at that run as somewhat of an aberration and an indictment of the east that season. It was an inbetween year between the Pistons and Heat coming off their peak window as contenders and before the rise of the Celtics and Dwights Orlando squad. So we agree on that premise.

When I look back at that time period Wade was actually having better runs both in 2005( before he got injured) and 2006. People remember Wade's 2006 finals, but Wade 'arrived' as a big playoff gamer the season before ( and showed flashes as a rookie even with other veterans around him). You're a Heat guy so you no doubt don't need to be sold on that idea.
Wade was also better against Boston in 2010 than either LeBron or Kobe. '07 was obviously an extremely embarrassing result, but considering he was coming off an injury and just wasn't right physically until the '08 Olympics, I don't hold it too much against him.

The only playoff run I felt he was a disappointment in was '09, where he had clear dip in performance after his legendary season, losing to a pretty mediocre Hawk team that got obliterated in the next round

Shaquille O'Neal

04-28-2020, 10:41 AM

Kareem never faced less than 3 HOF players. Jordan faced 1 HOF in half his finals.

Fact check:

1991: 3 HOF: Magic, Worthy, Divac
1992: Clyde
1993: Barkley
1996: Gary Payton
1997: 2 HOF: Malone/Stockton
1998: 2 HOF: Malone/Stockton

HOF players he beat in the playoffs: Too many to list. Include Reggie Miller, Ewing, Mourning, Chris Mullen, Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Dominique, etc.

Phoenix

04-28-2020, 10:43 AM

Wade was also better against Boston in 2010 than either LeBron or Kobe. '07 was obviously an extremely embarrassing result, but considering he was coming off an injury and just wasn't right physically until the '08 Olympics, I don't hold it too much against him.

The only playoff run I felt he was a disappointment in was '09, where he had clear dip in performance after his legendary season, losing to a pretty mediocre Hawk team that got obliterated in the next round

And in 2011 when the Heat got past the Celtics. I don't feel like Lebron created much separation between himself and Wade until 2012 onwards. From 2003 to 2011, when healthy, Wade to me was always right there with him.

OrlandoMagicGuy

04-28-2020, 10:51 AM

In other words, he is better because he had a better team Was MJ the GM and coach?
Magic/Worthy/Wilkes/Nixon/Byron/Cooper/McAdoo >>>>>>>> Scottie/Horace/Rodman/Harper/BJ/Cartwright/Kukoc/Paxson

Jordan MADE Pippen.He was Jordan's only all-star teammate,he made the all-star in 4/6 of the bulls championships.The Bulls were a superteam because of MICHAEL JORDAN,not the other way around.Barkley's Suns were an overall better team than the Bulls in 93,but lost in the finals due to Jordan going apeshit and averaging a whopping 41 pts on 51% shooting.

and weak competition on opposing teams.Kareem never faced less than 3 HOF players.Jordan faced 1 HOF in half his finals.
93 Suns - Barkley/Johnson/Majerle/Dumas/Chambers/Ceballos/Ainge (62-20)

98 Jazz - Malone/Stockton/Hornacek/Russell (62-20)

92 Trail Blazers - Drexler/Porter/Kersey/Duckworth/Robinson/Ainge (57-25)

97 Jazz - Malone/Stockton/Hornacek/Russell (64-18)

92 Knicks - Ewing/X-Man/Starks/Wilkins/Jackson/Mason/Oakley (51-31)

96 SuperSonics - Payton/Kemp/Schrempf/Hawkins/Perkins/McMillan (64-18)

98 Pacers -Reggie/Jackson/Davis/Mullin/Smits/Davis/Rose (59-23)

96 Magic - Shaq/Penny/3-D/Anderson/Horace (60-22)

91 Lakers - Magic/Worthy/Byron/Perkins/Divac (58-24)

91 Pistons - Zeke/Dumars/Laimbeer/Vinnie/Worm/Aguire (50-32)

97 Heat - Zo/Hardaway/Mashburn/Majerle (61-21)

You replace Jordan with Kareem on those Bulls teams they aren't winning 6 whereas Michael is winning multiple championships with Magic.

Roundball_Rock

04-28-2020, 10:56 AM

Fact check:

1991: 3 HOF: Magic, Worthy, Divac
1992: Clyde
1993: Barkley
1996: Gary Payton
1997: 2 HOF: Malone/Stockton
1998: 2 HOF: Malone/Stockton

Yeah, so I was correct. Half (3) of those (6) finals featured 1 HOFer. Chicago had 2, 2, and 3-4 in those same series (if we count Divac and Mullin for the opposing teams we might as well count Parish if we are counting HOFers who weren't playing HOF ball at the time).

HOF players he beat in the playoffs: Too many to list. Include Reggie Miller, Ewing, Mourning, Chris Mullen, Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Dominique, etc.

This is one of the most overblown talking points. You can do the same for any legend who played 10+ seasons.

It looks worse in context. Mullin was a washed up role player by 98' on a team whose best player was basically that era's Klay (i.e., Miller would be the #3 option today or in the 80s). Wilkins was on a terrible team and got swept in the first round in 93'. Ewing played with...John Starks as his second option, not a superstar like MJ did. Drexler's second option was Terry Porter. As Drexler said, give him Scottie and see how many chips he wins. Barkley had Kevin Johnson, unfortunately KJ didn't show up for the finals (he got benched at one point as Russilo and Simmons have discussed in their recent episodes).

Utah had 2 HOF. That's nice...except the other guys had 3 (if you don't count Parish for 97').

MJ even faced one team (Cleveland) in the ECF which had 0 HOF players.

Kareem was facing teams with equal or greater numbers of HOF players on the other side. So was LeBron for that matter. We can't keep looking at team results in a vacuum if we are going to make team results everything.

He was Jordan's only all-star teammate

He played with about 10 all-stars. Only 1 made the all-star team alongside MJ. What does that say about MJ?

deathawaitu

04-28-2020, 10:57 AM

Stopped reading after the first sentence

No one seriously ranks Lebron at #2 or #3 beside the media and Lebron stans

It's an insult to Kareem to even have Lebron mentioned in the same league as him.

Most people have Lebron exactly where he should be 8-12

Lebrons fans claiming he is the Goat has the loudest voice, but they are the minorities of the fans

Hey Yo

04-28-2020, 11:04 AM

One player threatened to sit out an entire season if he wasn't traded.

The other has never demanded to be traded.

OrlandoMagicGuy

04-28-2020, 11:22 AM

That HOF argument doesn't hold up,Kareem had all that help on those Laker teams but couldn't manage to win in every finals he was in.If Mike went 6/6 in the finals with 1 all-star teammate what do you think would happen if you replace Kareem with Jordan?

Roundball_Rock

04-28-2020, 11:27 AM

The other has never demanded to be traded.

True, but he also left with his teams getting 0 in return. Cleveland or Miami would have been better off if they were able to trade him and get value back, especially Cleveland given LeBron's age at the time (similar to Kareem's when he was traded).

SouBeachTalents

04-28-2020, 11:31 AM

True, but he also left with his teams getting 0 in return. Cleveland or Miami would have been better off if they were able to trade him and get value back, especially Cleveland given LeBron's age at the time (similar to Kareem's when he was traded).
It's crazy what awful returns Kareem & Wilt got in their trades. I wonder what the Cavs could've gotten for LeBron had they dealt him at the trade deadline in 2010

Roundball_Rock

04-28-2020, 11:34 AM

That HOF argument doesn't hold up

Sure it does. Kareem played equal or greater HOF comp. He was up against HOF players, not cream puffs at his own position. He played great teams. The 80s Celtics, 80s Sixers, the 80s Pistons. The 74' Celtics weren't "great" but they had 4 HOF. The Bullets had 3 and they were the weakest team Kareem ever faced in the finals. He also had to face the Wilt/West Lakers in his own conference in Milwaukee (not exactly Ewing/Starks or Miller/Smits).

The MJ crowd wants to talk about "help" but never the "help" the other team had. The Bulls had more HOF in 5 of 6 finals. In the lone exception Worthy got hurt in the series and the third HOF was a second year Divac who was a 1x all-star. It is disingenuous to say Divac got in the HOF because he was a NBA legend. The Bulls' themselves had 3 former or future 1x all-stars on their roster.

As to LeBron, he falls in the Kareem category. LeBron had equal or greater HOF on the other side every time. The one exception is 2011.

OrlandoMagicGuy

04-28-2020, 11:40 AM

Sure it does. Kareem played equal or greater HOF comp. He was up against HOF players, not cream puffs at his own position. He played great teams. The 80s Celtics, 80s Sixers, the 80s Pistons. The 74' Celtics weren't "great" but they had 4 HOF. The Bullets had 3 and they were the weakest team Kareem ever faced in the finals. He also had to face the Wilt/West Lakers in his own conference in Milwaukee (not exactly Ewing/Starks or Miller/Smits).

The MJ crowd wants to talk about "help" but never the "help" the other team had. The Bulls had more HOF in 5 of 6 finals. In the lone exception Worthy got hurt in the series and the third HOF was a second year Divac who was a 1x all-star. It is disingenuous to say Divac got in the HOF because he was a NBA legend. The Bulls' themselves had 3 former or future 1x all-stars on their roster.

Dennis Rodman was only in the second three-peat and he wasn't a scorer,so we're only really talking about Scottie here.Explain to me why Kareem couldn't win in every finals despite having more help than Jordan ever did in chicago.

RogueBorg

04-28-2020, 11:52 AM

In the lone exception Worthy got hurt in the series

Worthy only missed game 5. They were already down 3-1 with him, LA wasn't winning 4 straight with James Worthy.

ImKobe

04-28-2020, 12:24 PM

Dennis Rodman was only in the second three-peat and he wasn't a scorer,so we're only really talking about Scottie here.Explain to me why Kareem couldn't win in every finals despite having more help than Jordan ever did in chicago.

Lost to the Celtics in 7 in '74, but didn't have a 2nd star on the team, Oscar was in his last season at age 35 and was just 12/8 in the finals vs Kareem's 33/12/5. The Bucks were up 3 - 2 but lost a 2OT game 6 in Boston by 1 pt.
Worthy was out for the Playoffs in 1983.
Lakers lost to an ATG Celtics squad when he was 37, if Magic doesn't choke in that series, Kareem maybe wins FMVP.
Won FMVP and outplayed prime Bird & Magic at age 38.
He was 42 when they got swept by Detroit, are we holding that against him?

Jordan obviously could have lost some Finals as well, if he made it there on some mediocre squads or played til his 40s on a good team. Wouldn't have made him anything less than the GOAT.

Kareem's slightly below Jordan but is obviously ahead of Bird, Magic, Lebron & Duncan. To be able to win FMVP and outplay the two best players in the league at age 38 is just a testament to how good he was. Came into the league and instantly made the Bucks a winning team, led them to a championship his 2nd season, was still one of the 10 best players in the league at age 40 when he closed out the '87 Celtics with a 32-pt performance for his 6th ring.

Roundball_Rock

04-28-2020, 12:34 PM

Explain to me why Kareem couldn't win in every finals despite having more help than Jordan ever did in chicago.

When did Jordan ever win when he didn't have more HOF? 91' finals and 91' ECF are it.

Playing 3-5 HOF isn't the same as playing 1-2. Kareem faced Unseld, Cowens, Moses, Parish, Laimbeer as centers in the finals. Jordan faced Scott, Drexler, Majerle, Hawkins, and Hornacek.

Dennis Rodman was only in the second three-peat and he wasn't a scorer,so we're only really talking about Scottie here.

You can be in the HOF if you are not a scorer. Plus, if we go that route we have to exclude Stockton. What was Stockton scoring in 97' and 98'? Kukoc was outscoring him by 98' and was on par as a 6th man in 97'.

Worthy only missed game 5. They were already down 3-1 with him, LA wasn't winning 4 straight with James Worthy.

He got hurt in Game 4. It should be noted Worthy came into the series hurt. He aggravated it in the series.

He has been hobbling noticeably, and his inability to soar to the hoop for stuff shots and finger rolls has put a crimp in the Lakers' already-limited offense.

In Game 4 on Sunday, he scored 12 points, but left the court for good with 2 minutes, 49 seconds remaining in the third quarter.

"It was a little bit more painful than in other games," he said. "I wasn't able to turn quickly from the post. There were a couple of instances where I needed to stop on a dime, but it felt like I re-injured it again.

"I'm a spontaneous player, but now I don't have the mobility to do what I want to do."

This was the one time Chicago faced equal HOF on the other side and this was the state Worthy was in... https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1991-06-11-1991162018-story.html

Roundball_Rock

04-28-2020, 12:36 PM

Lost to the Celtics in 7 in '74, but didn't have a 2nd star on the team, Oscar was in his last season at age 35 and was just 12/8 in the finals vs Kareem's 33/12/5. The Bucks were up 3 - 2 but lost a 2OT game 6 in Boston by 1 pt.
Worthy was out for the Playoffs in 1983.
Lakers lost to an ATG Celtics squad when he was 37, if Magic doesn't choke in that series, Kareem maybe wins FMVP.
Won FMVP and outplayed prime Bird & Magic at age 38.
He was 42 when they got swept by Detroit, are we holding that against him?

Jordan obviously could have lost some Finals as well, if he made it there on some mediocre squads or played til his 40s on a good team. Wouldn't have made him anything less than the GOAT.

:applause:

Lucious Allen was out in 77' when the Lakers were the #1 said facing Portland. Oscar was hobbled a number of times. Others had injuries.

It is interesting, Kareem had numerous major injuries to his #2 or #3 options while MJ never did during those 6 years. The closest is Pippen in the 98' finals but by the time he got hurt the Bulls were already up 3-1.

ImKobe

04-28-2020, 12:41 PM

:applause:

Lucious Allen was out in 77' when the Lakers were the #1 said facing Portland. Oscar was hobbled a number of times. Others had injuries.

It is interesting, Kareem had numerous major injuries to his #2 or #3 options while MJ never did during those 6 years. The closest is Pippen in the 98' finals but by the time he got hurt the Bulls were already up 3-1.

You don't go undefeated in the Finals without some luck I guess, though Jordan's Finals opponents were never really injured either, with the exception of Worthy with the Lakers down 1 - 3.

OrlandoMagicGuy

04-28-2020, 01:00 PM

When did Jordan ever win when he didn't have more HOF? 91' finals and 91' ECF are it.
Why do you keep using the HOF argument when you know that Jordan had less scoring help than LeBron and Kareem ever did?That alone destroys your argument.Jordan did more with less.

Playing 3-5 HOF isn't the same as playing 1-2. Kareem faced Unseld, Cowens, Moses, Parish, Laimbeer as centers in the finals.
Looks like you couldn't explain why Kareem couldn't win in every finals with Magic despite having a shit load of good offensive talent.So like I said before if you replace Jordan with Kareem on those Bulls teams they aren't winning 6 championships.Jordan is winning every time in the finals with Magic's Lakers.Jordan beat the bad boy pistons with less help than Kareem had with the Lakers so nothing is stopping him from beating those Celtic & 76er teams of the 80s.

Jordan faced Scott, Drexler, Majerle, Hawkins, and Hornacek.
Jordan beat Isiah/Magic/Drexler/Barkley/Payton/Kemp/Malone/Stockton/Reggie/Ewing/Shaq/Penny/Mourning/Hardaway

You can be in the HOF if you are not a scorer.Plus, if we go that route we have to exclude Stockton. What was Stockton scoring in 97' and 98'? Kukoc was outscoring him by 98' and was on par as a 6th man in 97'.
Fact of the matter is Jordan had less help than Kareem and LeBron did in terms of scoring

OrlandoMagicGuy

04-28-2020, 01:09 PM

Lost to the Celtics in 7 in '74, but didn't have a 2nd star on the team, Oscar was in his last season at age 35 and was just 12/8 in the finals vs Kareem's 33/12/5. The Bucks were up 3 - 2 but lost a 2OT game 6 in Boston by 1 pt.
Worthy was out for the Playoffs in 1983.
Lakers lost to an ATG Celtics squad when he was 37, if Magic doesn't choke in that series, Kareem maybe wins FMVP.
Won FMVP and outplayed prime Bird & Magic at age 38.
He was 42 when they got swept by Detroit, are we holding that against him?

Jordan obviously could have lost some Finals as well, if he made it there on some mediocre squads or played til his 40s on a good team. Wouldn't have made him anything less than the GOAT.

Kareem's slightly below Jordan but is obviously ahead of Bird, Magic, Lebron & Duncan. To be able to win FMVP and outplay the two best players in the league at age 38 is just a testament to how good he was. Came into the league and instantly made the Bucks a winning team, led them to a championship his 2nd season, was still one of the 10 best players in the league at age 40 when he closed out the '87 Celtics with a 32-pt performance for his 6th ring.

I'm talking about with the Lakers,not the Bucks.BTW who did Kareem and Oscar beat in the east to get to the 74 finals?

Roundball_Rock

04-28-2020, 01:20 PM

Why do you keep using the HOF argument when you know that Jordan had less scoring help

3ball. :lol

Looks like you couldn't explain why Kareem couldn't win in every finals

1) Basketball is a team sport 2) in basketball games there are two teams that play. MJ stans like to pretend there isn't an opposing team...

Jordan beat Isiah/Magic/Drexler/Barkley/Payton/Kemp/Malone/Stockton/Reggie/Ewing/Shaq/Penny/Mourning/Hardaway

Only Drexler, Miller were actually SGs. :lol That is like saying "Kareem beat Bird, West, Dr. J, Isiah, etc.".

Fact of the matter is Jordan had less help

Player A: Team wins 55 games without him
Player B: Team goes 3-14 and 7-13 without him
Player C: Team goes 37-45 without him

A is the one with no help! :biggums:

OrlandoMagicGuy

04-28-2020, 01:23 PM

Mr Feeny

04-28-2020, 01:49 PM

:applause:

Lucious Allen was out in 77' when the Lakers were the #1 said facing Portland. Oscar was hobbled a number of times. Others had injuries.

It is interesting, Kareem had numerous major injuries to his #2 or #3 options while MJ never did during those 6 years. The closest is Pippen in the 98' finals but by the time he got hurt the Bulls were already up 3-1.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Kareem had much more help during his career than Jordan did. That's indisputable. He also had much more help than Lebron did. Can you imagine Lebron having one of the best 5 players in history for 8 years?

How many titles do you think Lebron wins in that situation?

Roundball_Rock

04-28-2020, 02:12 PM

Again, basketball is a sport where two teams play, not a solo sport. The issue is the relative differences between the two teams.

OrlandoMagicGuy

04-28-2020, 02:28 PM

1) Basketball is a team sport 2) in basketball games there are two teams that play. MJ stans like to pretend there isn't an opposing team.
So you're saying Michael Jordan doesn't win with those Laker teams because basketball is a "team sport"...........

Player A: Team wins 55 games without him
Got eliminated by the Knicks in the second round of the playoffs

A is the one with no help
You're picking Scottie Pippen,Horace Grant,Dennis Rodman,BJ Armstrong,Ron Harper,Toni Kukoc,John Paxson,Steve Kerr over Magic Johnson,James Worthy,Dwayne Wade,Anthony Davis,Kyrie Irving,Kevin Love,Chris Bosh,Norm Nixon,Jamal Wilkes,Byron Scott
:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

Roundball_Rock

04-28-2020, 02:38 PM

OrlandoMagicGuy

04-28-2020, 02:46 PM

Roundball_Rock

04-28-2020, 03:14 PM

94 Bulls won 55 games due to built in team chemistry and being more developed.Do the 88 Bulls win 55 games without Mike,yes or no?

Seriously? They won 50 with MJ so how do they win 55 without him?

Who's shutting down Michael if he plays on those 80s Laker teams?

I assume you mean against those Lakers teams. You don't "shut down" a player like MJ. Who is going to guard Kareem on the Bulls? How many times do the Bulls lose to the Celtics, Sixers, or Pistons in the 80's? You also can't take the 1996 Bulls roster and put it in 1986. The Bulls would get another quality player in the smaller league. The difference is the Bulls' would go from superiority to parity most likely.

Anyway, these are team questions. With MJ it always comes down to team results. Kareem was a comparable player but the difference is Kareem did it for nearly two decades without needing multiple years off multiple times.

Mr Feeny

04-28-2020, 03:33 PM

Mr Feeny

04-28-2020, 03:35 PM

So you're saying Michael Jordan doesn't win with those Laker teams because basketball is a "team sport"...........

Got eliminated by the Knicks in the second round of the playoffs

You're picking Scottie Pippen,Horace Grant,Dennis Rodman,BJ Armstrong,Ron Harper,Toni Kukoc,John Paxson,Steve Kerr over Magic Johnson,James Worthy,Dwayne Wade,Anthony Davis,Kyrie Irving,Kevin Love,Chris Bosh,Norm Nixon,Jamal Wilkes,Byron Scott
:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

I know. I'm reading this guy's posts and laughing. Magic, Worthy,, Cooper, Oscar. All better help than Lebron ever had.

The Iron Fist

04-28-2020, 03:43 PM

I know. I'm reading this guy's posts and laughing. Magic, Worthy,, Cooper, Oscar. All better help than Lebron ever had.

So what did they ever win without Kareem?

Roundball_Rock

04-28-2020, 03:44 PM

He isnt though. That's the whole point. He has no argument ahead or Lebron, nevermind Jordan.

Sure he does and he doesn't need to rely on team results to do that. He was as dominant as any other player individually, he had no weakness, he had the most unstoppable shot, he could play on both ends of the floor, and he fit well in a team structure. He and Jordan would be tied to me if we are comparing 10 years. The difference is Kareem was a MVP level guy for 17 seasons and MJ for 10 or 11. If I am drafting players all-time blindly without having a roster, I am taking the 17 MVP caliber seasons over 10 or 11. It gives me more shots at winning.

The argument we always hear about Jordan is team results against far inferior competition. When did Kareem have more HOF players on his team than the comp in the finals? Jordan did 5 of 6 times. The fewest HOF Kareem was faced was 3; the most MJ faced was 3 (and you need to count 1x all-star Divac to get there).

Re LeBron, what does LeBron have over Kareem? Assists totals? LeBron could do more with less than anyone but he also doesn't get the most out of talented rosters as he often has trouble meshing with other stars.

The Lakers were great but so was the comp. Kareem was 32 by the time the Lakers got the "cast" you all are referring to. He didn't get it when he was 25.

StrongLurk

04-28-2020, 07:46 PM

Roundball_Rock

04-28-2020, 07:57 PM

My only hesitation with Kareem is that he played in such a weak era. I mean I know his talent is ridiculous and he accomplished a ton, but the 70's sucked as an era. Kareem was still very good in the 80's though even at old age, so he is at least number 3 for me.

He was still a MVP level player up to age 38 in the 80s. Prime Kareem (a 10 year prime!) would have dominated in any era.

Mr Feeny

04-29-2020, 06:24 AM

So what did they ever win without Kareem?

Why does it matter? That's the done dumb argument tha you Kobe stans used to use when Shaq was single handidly winning titles for the Lakers and the same argument tha Jordsn haters use whe saying what did Jordan win without Pippen.

Magic carried Kareem. By the end of his run there, he could have been replaced with just about any serviceable center and they would have won the 87 and 88 titles.

Mr Feeny

04-29-2020, 06:24 AM

He was still a MVP level player up to age 38 in the 80s. Prime Kareem (a 10 year prime!) would have dominated in any era.

Yet he didn't dominate his own era. 1 title in a 10 year stretch and constantly choked in many big games.

Mr Feeny

04-29-2020, 06:29 AM

Sure he does and he doesn't need to rely on team results to do that. He was as dominant as any other player individually, he had no weakness, he had the most unstoppable shot, he could play on both ends of the floor, and he fit well in a team structure. He and Jordan would be tied to me if we are comparing 10 years. The difference is Kareem was a MVP level guy for 17 seasons and MJ for 10 or 11. If I am drafting players all-time blindly without having a roster, I am taking the 17 MVP caliber seasons over 10 or 11. It gives me more shots at winning.

The argument we always hear about Jordan is team results against far inferior competition. When did Kareem have more HOF players on his team than the comp in the finals? Jordan did 5 of 6 times. The fewest HOF Kareem was faced was 3; the most MJ faced was 3 (and you need to count 1x all-star Divac to get there).

Re LeBron, what does LeBron have over Kareem? Assists totals? LeBron could do more with less than anyone but he also doesn't get the most out of talented rosters as he often has trouble meshing with other stars.

The Lakers were great but so was the comp. Kareem was 32 by the time the Lakers got the "cast" you all are referring to. He didn't get it when he was 25.

There is so much wrong here that I'm not even sure where to start.
Jordan peaked much higher than Kareem. The chasm is so big that it's an insult to put Kareem in the same sentence as Jordan.

Lebron and Shaq peaked close to Jordan's level and would have had the longevity argument if they played at the same level for long. Lebron had a good argument, if we drop titles.

Kareem doesn't. Jordan during his prime was so much more dominant as an individual player that it doesn't matter that Kareem played more seasons at the tail end of his career, at a low level.
Scoring 4 points in the biggest game of the season and averaging 14 and then 10 ppg in an offense being run by Magic Johnson doesnt enhance your legacy.

You're wasting my time talking about competition when Kareem lost against Walton? The HOF isnt the standard to wwhich elite players are held. There are plenty of players in the hall of fame but theres a distinction between a hall of fame also-ran and a top 5 player.

Neither jordan nor Lebron played on teams as stacked as the ones Kareem played with. Neither was carried to a title by a better teammate. And they were much more dominant, individually speaking.

SouBeachTalents

04-29-2020, 06:42 AM

There is so much wrong here that I'm not even sure where to start.
Jordan peaked much higher than Kareem. The chasm is so big that it's an insult to put Kareem in the same sentence as Jordan.

Lebron and Shaq peaked close to Jordan's level and would have had the longevity argument if they played at the same level for long. Lebron had a good argument, if we drop titles.
Kareem had a good fcking peak bruh :lol He had playoff runs of

35/17/4 on 57%
32/16/5 on 56%
35/18/4/4 on 61%
32/12/3/4 on 57%

That's production as good as basically anybody has put up in the playoffs. You would obviously disagree, but imo I'd put Kareem's peak on the same level as Jordan; and along with LeBron & Shaq I'd include Wilt & Hakeem in that category

SATAN

04-29-2020, 06:51 AM

With MJ it always comes down to team results.

That's not what I kept hearing over the past two decades from people who worship his highlight reels and stopped watching basketball regularly after he retired. Interesting.

Soundwave

04-29-2020, 06:54 AM

3ball. :lol

1) Basketball is a team sport 2) in basketball games there are two teams that play. MJ stans like to pretend there isn't an opposing team...

Only Drexler, Miller were actually SGs. :lol That is like saying "Kareem beat Bird, West, Dr. J, Isiah, etc.".

Player A: Team wins 55 games without him
Player B: Team goes 3-14 and 7-13 without him
Player C: Team goes 37-45 without him

A is the one with no help! :biggums:

The Lakers won 63 games with a rookie Vlade Divac in 89-90 after Kareem retired, an improvement over almost every season they had Kareem in the 80s actually. Does that make Vlade as good as Kareem?

SATAN

04-29-2020, 06:54 AM

Also, everyone just writing LeBron James off because of the last two years and bad luck that has transpired are nothing short of being mentally retarded. Before actually signing up I recall a poster mentioning how unlucky he has been in terms of road blocks and it's pretty true.

Mr Feeny

04-29-2020, 07:14 AM

Mr Feeny

04-29-2020, 07:15 AM

The Lakers won 63 games with a rookie Vlade Divac in 89-90 after Kareem retired, an improvement over almost every season they had Kareem in the 80s actually. Does that make Vlade as good as Kareem?

The Bucks won the same number of games when he left, as well. That's always been a silly argument.

Otherwise,Steve Nash and Larry bird are the 2 greatest players ever.

RogueBorg

04-29-2020, 09:43 AM

Kareem is the GOAT. The only "argument" MJ stans can make is team results because MJ played cake competition.

Again, basketball is a team sport. You have to assess the team and compare it to the other team on the basketball court. I know this is hard for MJ stans to understand, but there was another team on the court in the finals.

My problem with Kareem is the 1970's and it's basically what you're saying about going up against the competition in his prime. The mid to late 70's was in my eyes the weakest era in NBA history. No one thinks highly of the Supersonics or the Bullets. The Lakers had the best record in 1977 and got swept by Portland, get bounced in the first round in '78, and lose 4-1 in '79. Magic shows up for the 1979-'80 season, they get to the Finals, Kareem doesn't play game 7, and Magic leads them to the title trouncing Philly by 16 without Kareem. Those are huge marks against Kareem. If it had been like Moses going to the Sixers in '82-'83 leading them to the title, with Kareem showing up to the Lakers to help Magic win, it's a different story.

The Iron Fist

04-29-2020, 09:44 AM

Why does it matter? That's the done dumb argument tha you Kobe stans used to use when Shaq was single handidly winning titles for the Lakers and the same argument tha Jordsn haters use whe saying what did Jordan win without Pippen.

Magic carried Kareem. By the end of his run there, he could have been replaced with just about any serviceable center and they would have won the 87 and 88 titles.
Why does Kobe have to win without Shaq having Smush, Kwame, etc? Shaq didn’t singlehandedly win shit. You brought up that all these players were Kareems teammates insinuating that is why he won so much. Well ok, since they were so great without Kareem, what did they win without him? Magic, Worthy, etc won zero titles sans Kareem. Oscar won nothing without Kareem. We can deal with your made up bullshit, or we can deal with facts.

Roundball_Rock

04-29-2020, 10:35 AM

Kareem had a good fcking peak bruh :lol He had playoff runs of

35/17/4 on 57%
32/16/5 on 56%
35/18/4/4 on 61%
32/12/3/4 on 57%

That's production as good as basically anybody has put up in the playoffs. You would obviously disagree, but imo I'd put Kareem's peak on the same level as Jordan; and along with LeBron & Shaq I'd include Wilt & Hakeem in that category

Exactly.

Why does it matter?

So it matters that Kareem had Magic but it doesn't matter that Magic had Kareem? :coleman:

Yet he didn't dominate his own era. 1 title in a 10 year stretch

Team results. Russell is the GOAT then.

Lebron and Shaq peaked close to Jordan's level and would have had the longevity argument if they played at the same level for long.

LeBron has a longevity argument over Jordan. Jordan was a MVP candidate from 1987-1993, 1996-1998. LeBron from 2006-present.

Jordan during his prime was so much more dominant as an individual player that it doesn't matter that Kareem

The facts:

Kareem (1970-1980): 28/14/5 with 4 blocks and a steal.
Jordan (1987-1998): 32/6/5 with 3 steals and a block.
LeBron (2006-2016): 28/7/7 with 2 steals and a block.

It is funny how the center matches the guard in assists. Jordan scores more--but on a ton more shots. He takes 24 a game, Kareem 21 and LeBron 20. Kareem has the most unstoppable move in history, they don't.

MVPs: Kareem 6, Jordan 5, LeBron 4. So the less dominant guy won more MVPs?

You're wasting my time talking about competition when Kareem lost against Walton?

:oldlol:

Kareem 30/16/4/4 on 61%
Walton 19/15/6/2 on 50%

No further comment necessary. Basketball is a team sport.

The HOF isnt the standard to wwhich elite players are held. There are plenty of players in the hall of fame but theres a distinction between a hall of fame also-ran and a top 5 player.

There is no official list of top 5 players published by the NBA. What we see is a lot of subjectivity when people start rating players. The closest thing we have to work with is all-NBA player lists. Do you really think that would yield any different results about relative differences? If so, collect the data. I don't.

That's not what I kept hearing over the past two decades from people who worship his highlight reels and stopped watching basketball regularly after he retired. Interesting.

It has gotten worse but this has always been their go to move with any other legend and they then always say the other guy did less with more than MJ.

The Lakers won 63 games with a rookie Vlade Divac in 89-90 after Kareem retired

Kareem was 10/5 by 89'.

Their career PERs, winshares and so forth are also much higher than his.

These formulas calculate 0 steals and 0 blocks for Kareem for several of his prime years (those stats weren't kept until the 74' or 75'). They can't be used to compare players who started their careers prior to the 80s.

The Bucks won the same number of games when he left, as well

This misleading claim was already addressed by two posters. That you have to resort to it again is revealing.

Roundball_Rock

04-29-2020, 10:36 AM

My problem with Kareem is the 1970's

What a surprise, all about team results, which Kareem partly sacrificed by not screwing Milwaukee (he could have left as a free agent and joined a new team fully intact). Why are injuries never mentioned? Some legends can go entire careers without major playoff injuries to their key teammates. Others are not so lucky.

Kareem won 5 MVPs in the 70s alone (6 total), Jordan won 5 in 15 years and LeBron 4 in 16 completed seasons (maybe he wins this year but probably Giannis).

The era argument has a huge problem: Kareem played past his prime in the 80s (he turned 33 in 1980) and was still a dominant player. What is your explanation for it? He is past his prime, in the same era as prime Bird, Magic, Moses, Dr. J and still dominant? The Magic stuff is overblown. Kareem was the #1 option until 1987. That is a fact. As players, you could argue they were 1a/1b from 1982-1986. So a prime Magic was equal to a 34-38 year old Kareem. What does that say about how great Kareem was?

What did Bird do in the 90s? Jordan in the 00s? Wilt in the 70s? Duncan and Kobe in the 2010s? You have to apply the same standards to every player.

Why does Kobe have to win without Shaq having Smush, Kwame, etc? Shaq didn’t singlehandedly win shit. You brought up that all these players were Kareems teammates insinuating that is why he won so much. Well ok, since they were so great without Kareem, what did they win without him? Magic, Worthy, etc won zero titles sans Kareem. Oscar won nothing without Kareem. We can deal with your made up bullshit, or we can deal with facts.

They do this with every legend, as if MJ did anything without Pippen. It is comical.

LeCroix

04-29-2020, 10:42 AM

If lebron aint #1 he is #2. End of the talks

Kareem can be 3-5 ranges

Roundball_Rock

04-29-2020, 10:57 AM

If lebron aint #1 he is #2. End of the talks

Kareem can be 3-5 ranges

What is the argument for LeBron over Kareem (the OP can't be taken seriously, it includes claims about Walton and Cowens that were false or misleading, for example)? He posts up better against Jordan because he has longevity and career statistics but he lacks those over Kareem.

RogueBorg

04-29-2020, 01:04 PM

Kareem won 5 MVPs in the 70s alone (6 total), Jordan won 5 in 15 years and LeBron 4 in 16 completed seasons (maybe he wins this year but probably Giannis).

How do you explain the Lakers having the best record in 1977 and getting swept by Portland?

How do explain Kareem failing to lead the Lakers to any Finals in the 70's? Was Portland, Washington, or Seattle that good? If they were I'd give this to you.....they weren't.

How do explain game 7 of the 1980 NBA Finals that Kareem missed due to injury only to watch Magic due what Kareem failed to do his entire tenure with LA in the 1970's?

Kareem's not the GOAT...he needed a little man to help, just like all centers do.

Magic doesn't even call Kareem the best ever.

Roundball_Rock

04-29-2020, 01:20 PM

You can do the OP to LeBron if you want to do lazy and deceptively cherry picked and spin analysis.

2004: missed the playoffs
2005: missed the playoffs again in a historically weak conference
2006: LeBron makes the playoffs but shoots 44% including 11 for 24 in Game 7.
2007: LeBron shoots 36% in the finals, arguably the worst shooting performance by a legend of his caliber in the finals. Spurs challenge LeBron to make jump shots; LeBron lacks the skills to do that or counter in any other way.
2008: LeBron shoots 36% against Boston.
2009: LeBron has a 66 win team (best record in the NBA) but gets upset in the ECF. LeBron has a big series but in Game 6 LeBron watches Howard go 40/14 while LeBron has 25/7.
2010: LeBron again loses with the best record in the NBA, this time in the second round to the 4 seed. LeBron shoots 45% in the series and notoriously disappears in Game 5 with the series tied. In Game 6 LeBron shoots 38% and has 9 turnovers.
2011: We all know this one. LeBron makes it back to the finals and has another historically bad series. Jason Terry and JJ Barea forever become memes from this series.
2012: LeBron finally gets it together, has a great Game 6 and Game 7 against Boston and outplays Durant.
2013: LeBron wins two tough 7 game series and is huge in both Game 7s.
2014: LeBron gets shut down by Kawhi, then a role player.
2015: LeBron gets shut down by Iggy, a role player.
2016: LeBron shows up after a three year hiatus.
2017: LeBron outplayed by Durant.
2018: LeBron outplayed by Durant.
2019: Lakers miss the playoffs as they implode as LeBron takes the final third of the season off to "shut down."
2020: Anthony Davis joins the Lakers and turns a lottery team into the #1 seed. LeBron leads his team only in assists.

When the chips are down LeBron lacks a go to move or a refined game (e.g., post game) to turn to as he relies too much on his talent and did not evolve his game the way his contemporary Kobe did. Would anyone trust LeBron over Kareem for the final shot of a game?

To recap: 1) LeBron misses the playoffs to kick off his career 2) LeBron performs badly in the playoffs, especially in the biggest games and series (including two epic finals melt downs), from 2006-2011 when he finally makes the playoffs 3) LeBron lives up to the hype for two years in 2012-2013 4) LeBron gets shut down in consecutive finals by role players 5) LeBron shows up briefly in 2016 6) LeBron outplayed by his nemesis KD two years in a row 7) Anthony Davis saves LeBron in LA.

This is your GOAT?

*Breaks character*

What I posted above is utter BS but if we play the game with Kareem with LeBron, it looks even worse. The "examples" of prime Kareem getting "outplayed" are him in fact crushing Walton, Cowens, and Thurmond. Kareem loses with inferior teams with injuries a factor in many series (Oscar, Allen, etc.)

How do you explain the Lakers having the best record in 1977 and getting swept by Portland?

How do explain Kareem failing to lead the Lakers to any Finals in the 70's? Was Portland, Washington, or Seattle that good? If they were I'd give this to you.....they weren't.

Oh look, more talk about team success. Portland, Seattle, won chips, so...

RogueBorg

04-29-2020, 01:27 PM

What I posted above is utter BS but if we play the game with Kareem with LeBron, it looks even worse. The "examples" of prime Kareem getting "outplayed" are him in fact crushing Walton, Cowens, and Thurmond. Kareem loses with inferior teams with injuries a factor in many series (Oscar, Allen, etc.)

Moses Malone crushed, according to you, prime Kareem in '83. In fact, you can lay alot of blame on Kareem for getting utterly destroyed by Moses in yet another sweep of a Kareem team.

Roundball_Rock

04-29-2020, 02:16 PM

Moses Malone crushed, according to you, prime Kareem in '83. In fact, you can lay alot of blame on Kareem for getting utterly destroyed by Moses in yet another sweep of a Kareem team.

:kobe:

Kareem was 36, Moses 27 at his peak (won MVP that year and the year before in a league that had Bird, Magic, Kareem, Dr. J). Kareem's prime, as I noted earlier (read more carefully), was 1970-1980.

A comparable example is 36 year old Hakeem versus 26 year old Shaq (not even peak Shaq):

Shaq 30/10/4 on 52%
Hakeem 13/7/1 on 43%

Kareem got outplayed but he fared far better than Hakeem, who got embarrassed, did. The scoring was close (Moses 26, Kareem 24 but Kareem shot 5% better) but Kareem could not keep Moses off the glass.

This doesn't help LeBron or anyone else (MJ was 0/0/0 at age 36, when he came back at 38 he got roasted by Kobe, Iverson, T Mac but missed the playoffs twice and avoided a playoff match up against a young star).

Let's see how LeBron does at 36 when facing a peak Kawhi. The greater player loses the edge eventually due to aging over the lesser great.

LeBron had trouble with prime Durant when LeBron got into his early 30s (when he was still considered the best player), not to mention with Kawhi in 14' when the two were matched up. The latter isn't fair since Kawhi was a role player whose one job was to defend LeBron but hey, Kareem gets blamed for scoring 30 and losing to people scoring 19. Why couldn't LeBron do anything against Kawhi? His points came against other defenders. He has a real weakness: his lack of a refined game leaves him vulnerable in a way MJ and Kareem weren't.

aj1987

04-29-2020, 03:51 PM

It's more 2a and 2b right now. If LeBron has another elite season with an All-NBA selection, he'd comfortably be above Kareem.

1. MJ
2. LeBron/Kareem
3. LeBron/Kareem
4. Shaq
5. Russell

Smoke117

04-29-2020, 04:05 PM

LeBron has no case over Kareem.

Roundball_Rock

04-29-2020, 07:57 PM

LeBron has no case over Kareem.

Apparently because we haven't seen any presented. When asked what LeBron has over Kareem, it is silence.

Mr Feeny

04-30-2020, 02:26 AM

LeBron has no case over Kareem.

Kareem has no case ahead of Lebron.

Lebron has the higher individual peak by a big margin.
He is the more dominant player statistically speaking.
He has the higher team impact.
He already has more rings as lead dog.
He doesn't have nearly as many black marks on his resume as Kreeem does.
He is 10 times the finals performer that Kareem was.

Roundball_Rock

04-30-2020, 09:57 AM

LeBron authored two of the worst finals ever and is a great finals performer?

Mr Feeny

04-30-2020, 10:06 AM

LeBron authored two of the worst finals ever and is a great finals performer?

No finals worse than Kareem's 89. Or Kareem's 88. Or Kareem's humiliating 83 finals.

SouBeachTalents

04-30-2020, 10:14 AM

No finals worse than Kareem's 89. Or Kareem's 88. Or Kareem's humiliating 83 finals.
You really bringing up series from when Kareem was in his forties? What is that supposed to prove exactly? I would hope LeBron never played worse than a 42 year old Kareem

Roundball_Rock

04-30-2020, 10:23 AM

No finals worse than Kareem's 89. Or Kareem's 88. Or Kareem's humiliating 83 finals.

:roll:

Kareem in the 89' finals was 42 years old, in 88' he was 41. In 88' he was still trusted to take a game winner in the finals BTW.

The 83' charge is weird. Kareem at 36 was outplayed by a peak 27 year old Moses (a top 15 all-time player).

LeBron, while still the best player, was outplayed twice in a row by Durant. He twice was shut down by role players in two other finals in his prime. Then there is the epic 2011 meltdown where Jason Terry outscored him. In 2007 he was even worse than 2011 but didn't have the same expectations. It is bizarre to make a case for LeBron on finals performances or getting "outplayed." There is too much underachieving.

LeBron shot 34% against Kawhi and 33% against Iggy. The GOAT shut down by role players?

On shots contested by Iguodala, James is shooting 24 percent from the field. On shots contested by anyone else, James is shooting 41 percent.

https://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106613/iggy-makes-lebrons-shooting-iffy

In contrast, Cowens was getting crushed so much Boston had to double and triple team Kareem every time he touched the ball in Game 7 (which you failed to mention). If it were LeBron, apparently, stick 1 defensive role player on him and that is enough. The problem is LeBron doesn't have the refined game--a post game, footwork, a go to move, etc.--to help him when he gets in trouble.

aj1987

04-30-2020, 11:37 AM

:roll:

Kareem in the 89' finals was 42 years old, in 88' he was 41. In 88' he was still trusted to take a game winner in the finals BTW.

The 83' charge is weird. Kareem at 36 was outplayed by a peak 27 year old Moses (a top 15 all-time player).

LeBron, while still the best player, was outplayed twice in a row by Durant. He twice was shut down by role players in two other finals in his prime. Then there is the epic 2011 meltdown where Jason Terry outscored him. In 2007 he was even worse than 2011 but didn't have the same expectations. It is bizarre to make a case for LeBron on finals performances or getting "outplayed." There is too much underachieving.

LeBron shot 34% against Kawhi and 33% against Iggy. The GOAT shut down by role players?

Kawhi is one of the greatest perimeter defenders and Iggy is one of the best in recent times. Not to mention the FACT that LeBron's #2 that Finals was Matthew Dellevedova. Meanwhile KAJ had players to take off the defensive attention off of him. LeBron did not have that luxury. Even then, LeBron dropped 28 PPG on 56% in '14 and 33/12/9 on 40% in '15. Took 2 games from a 67 win Warriors team, while playing with legit G-League level players.

As fro KD outplaying LeBron, LeBron dropped 34/10/10/1/1 over those two Finals on 54% shooting while being guarded by KD/Klay/Dray/Iggy. 3 All-Def players and one DPOY.

You want to bring up context and excuses for KAJ, but ignore all that for LeBron? :roll:

Roundball_Rock

04-30-2020, 12:05 PM

Kawhi is one of the greatest perimeter defenders and Iggy is one of the best in recent times

Sure but this is nonetheless a damaging admission for LeBron's case. We are comparing LeBron with GOAT level players so the standards are higher. So Kawhi, Iggy shut him down in 2 finals. Durant outplayed him in 2 more. LeBron didn't show up at all in 2 more. That is 6 finals right there of 9.

Not to mention the FACT that LeBron's #2 that Finals was Matthew Dellevedova. Meanwhile KAJ had players to take off the defensive attention off of him

Kareem had injuries to his #2 and #3 players too in his playoff career. He wasn't shooting 33% because he had the sky hook to fall back on no matter what.

Even with Kareem getting doubled and tripled every time he had the ball he still had 26/13/4. (When Cowens played him straight up, Kareem roasted him for 34/12/6 on 53%).

As fro KD outplaying LeBron, LeBron dropped 34/10/10/1/1 over those two Finals

As you noted, LeBron had a less stacked team so he was asked to do less. Stats don't tell the story. We saw those games. Durant was better. It isn't an indictment of LeBron. Durant, a top 15-20 all-time player, was at his peak and LeBron 32-33 in those series. It is just rich, though, to then bring up Moses at his peak (top 15 all-time) against a 36 year old Kareem when you are arguing for LeBron.

A problem here is the OP made a terrible case for LeBron because he decided to hang his hat on areas where LeBron is most vulnerable. :oldlol:

The Iron Fist

04-30-2020, 03:45 PM

Lestanleys getting brutalized in here. There is no case for lebron being above a guy who won 3 straight city titles, 3 straight NCAA titles, and six nba titles.

RogueBorg

04-30-2020, 03:51 PM

Lestanleys getting brutalized in here. There is no case for lebron being above a guy who won 3 straight city titles, 3 straight NCAA titles, and six nba titles.

6 MVP's

All-time leading scorer (LeBron probably catches him though)

Roundball_Rock

04-30-2020, 05:35 PM

Lestanleys getting brutalized in here. There is no case for lebron being above a guy who won 3 straight city titles, 3 straight NCAA titles, and six nba titles.

Yeah Kareem is the toughest match up for LeBron because you can't argue longevity or career cumulative stats or accolades for LeBron over Kareem.

All-time leading scorer (LeBron probably catches him though)

He likely will but we don't know about injuries and now we have the Covid-19 wild card thrown in. Is there basketball next year? If so, how many games?

aj1987

04-30-2020, 08:25 PM

Sure but this is nonetheless a damaging admission for LeBron's case.
Do you not understand simple English, or are you just purposefully being dense? You want want to read my post again.

We are comparing LeBron with GOAT level players so the standards are higher.
Yeah, no shit. LeBron has proven time and time again that right there with anyone and everyone. That's just a fact.

So Kawhi, Iggy shut him down in 2 finals.
Yeah, Kawhi and Iggy shut him down by holding him to 28 PPG on 56% and 33/13/9 on 40%. That's beyond GOAT standards.

Durant outplayed him in 2 more.
As fro KD outplaying LeBron, LeBron dropped 34/10/10/1/1 over those two Finals on 54% shooting while being guarded by KD/Klay/Dray/Iggy. 3 All-Def players and one DPOY.

LeBron didn't show up at all in 2 more.
You must be really bad at counting because 2011 counts as 1.

That is 6 finals right there of 9.
LeBron has been absolutely brilliant in 7 of the 9 Finals that he has played in. Even with his '07 and '11 Finals, LeBron has averaged 28/10/8/2/1 on 47% over the Finals in his career.

Kareem had injuries to his #2 and #3 players too in his playoff career. He wasn't shooting 33% because he had the sky hook to fall back on no matter what.
Except for the FACT that LeBron never shot 33% in a Finals series. I'm starting to suspect you're 3ball, with all these made up stats and cherrypicking arguments with pretty much zero context.

As you noted, LeBron had a less stacked team so he was asked to do less. Stats don't tell the story. We saw those games. Durant was better. It isn't an indictment of LeBron. Durant, a top 15-20 all-time player, was at his peak and LeBron 32-33 in those series. It is just rich, though, to then bring up Moses at his peak (top 15 all-time) against a 36 year old Kareem when you are arguing for LeBron.
Just stop it. By the end of the 18 season, LeBron had played ~200 more games than KAJ. That's over 3 seasons worth of basketball more than KAJ. So, lets just say that they had the same mileage. Again, since you've OBVIOUSLY haven't seen a single minute of the '17 or '18 Finals, let me help you out here and educate you. Before KD went to the Warriors, LeBron routinely owned him. On the Warriors, KD had two of the greatest shooters (#1a and #1b) to ever play take the pressure off of him. That coupled with the fact that the Cavs were a shit defensive team helped him immensely. LeBron, on the other had, had only Kyrie. Love was useless and the rest of the team was garbage. Also, he was going up against 4 elite defenders in KD, Klay, Dray, and Iggy. One of whom was a DPOY.

A problem here is the OP made a terrible case for LeBron because he decided to hang his hat on areas where LeBron is most vulnerable. :oldlol:
Problem is that your arguments are cherrypicked and lack any context whatsoever. Try again.

Roundball_Rock

04-30-2020, 08:50 PM

You want want to read my post again.

Where you said Iggy and Kawhi shut LeBron down? Yeah, that is a problem if you are a GOAT candidate. Sure it wasn't for the full game but if you are the GOAT and the opposing team in the finals can erase you at key junctures through one defender that is a problem. Why couldn't he overcome them? He lacks the skills to have anything to fall back on. The GOAT had the skyhook. MJ had the fadeaway. What does LeBron have when the chips are down? He has a major weakness KAJ and MJ do not have. When we are talking this level of greatness, something like that separates players.

Yeah, Kawhi and Iggy shut him down by holding him to 28 PPG on 56% and 33/13/9 on 40%

Those aren't his numbers with them guarding him...Cleveland was actually winning the series until they put Iggy in the starting lineup.

You must be really bad at counting because 2011 counts as 1.

Maybe you weren't old enough to watch in 2007 but long story short, LeBron shot 36% (overall) in the finals.

Except for the FACT that LeBron never shot 33% in a Finals series

True but somewhat irrelevant: if you are the GOAT should you let any defender hold you to that terrible a percentage when they are guarding you? We aren't talking him going 2 for 7 on random possessions here.

So, lets just say that they had the same mileage.

We are talking humans, not cars. 32 is not the same as being 36 years old. Games played has an impact but aging is far more consequential. Look at LeBron and Kobe in year 17. Is it a coincidence only the high schoolers (and the GOAT Kareem) were that great in year 17? They had the benefit if relative youth. Bird, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Jordan never even got to year 17. Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq were shells of themselves by then.

Before KD went to the Warriors, LeBron routinely owned him

Irrelevant. According to the OP, if you are outplayed by another player that is a major indictment on you. In one case a 36 year old was outplayed by a 27 year old. In the other the "best player in the world" at 32 and 33 outplayed consecutively by a peak Durant. The age, rosters, etc. are legitimate mitigating factors--but per the OP's own standard (where there are no mitigating factors), LeBron failed and did so in consecutive years.

aj1987

05-01-2020, 05:05 AM

Where you said Iggy and Kawhi shut LeBron down? Yeah, that is a problem if you are a GOAT candidate.
Again, do you have trouble reading and comprehending simple English? I can use Google to translate my posts into the language of your preference.

Sure it wasn't for the full game but if you are the GOAT and the opposing team in the finals can erase you at key junctures through one defender that is a problem.
The reason why the Heat lost the '14 Finals wasn't because of LeBron. Wade was misused the entire season and his "load management" strategy backfired massively. Dude was straight up trash in the Finals and shot like 20 something percent after the first three games. Dude was terrible in G1 as well. Bosh was just flat out awful. He couldn't even limit ancient Duncan and was getting embarrassed. Also, there were no "key junctures" in '14. It was a massive blowout after the first two games.

As for the '15 Finals, educate yourself:

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.

LeBron James finished the 2015 NBA Finals with averages of 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists per game.

LeBron James is the first player in NBA Finals history to lead both teams in points, assists and rebounds for the entire series.

Without James on the floor, Cleveland’s field goal percentage dropped for 40% to 17%, and it’s offensive efficiency fell from 97.3 to 50.9.

According to Tom Haberstroh of ESPN, James accounted for 38.3% of Cleveland's points in the Finals, the second-highest percentage of team points in Finals history. He is edged only by Michael Jordan scoring 38.4% of the Bulls' points in the 1993 Finals, which Chicago won.

aj1987

05-01-2020, 05:07 AM

He was responsible for an average of 57.7 points per game on points he either scored or assisted on; which in turn, accounted for 62% of the Cavaliers’s points in the NBA Finals.

According to ESPN Stats & Information, by pulling the Elo Ratings for each team to make the NBA Finals before the series began, and taking into account a team’s home-court advantage, it was able to project each team’s chances of winning prior to the Finals. What was discovered was that James’ teams had the lowest expected winning percentage — 37% — out of any of the other players on this list. If you consider that James still managed to win two titles with those odds stacked against him, the four losses don’t seem so terrible. And if we look at the 2015 Finals by itself, we’ll realize that James did was pretty much unprecedented.

“If we look at a multi-year Statistical Plus/Minus talent projection for every NBA Finals team, this Cavs team ranks as the ninth-least talented NBA finalist since 1985. (By contrast, Cleveland’s opponents, the mighty Golden State Warriors, rank as the 14th-most talented.) Remove James, and things get even more dire; his supporting cast ranks as the third-worst team carried by its best player to the NBA Finals since 1985.”

If you were to take James’s talent rating (6.6) and replace it with that of the league-average player (0.0), the Cavaliers’s talent rating would dwindle to -0.1. So what the King ended up doing was carrying one of the three-worst supporting casts in NBA history to within two games of a championship. Of course, what we forgot to mention was that FiveThirtyEight also determined that these Golden State Warriors finished the year with the second-highest peak Elo Rating (1822) in NBA history and third-highest Composite Elo Rating of all time (1796), making them one of the best basketball teams ever. And what James did against them remarkable.

When LeBron was NOT on the floor, JR Smith, Matthew Dellavedova, James Jones and Iman Shumpert DID NOT MAKE A SHOT in the NBA Finals

Without LeBron James on the floor this series.
JR Smith 0/9 FG
Delly 0/7 FG
J. Jones 0/3 FG
Shumpert 0/2 FG
Total 0/21 FG

..
Because his teammates were trash in '14. Give LeBron '12 Wade in '14 and they probably win the Finals.

..
Yeah, no skill at all, yet he scored 16 points on 7/10 shooting in the G6 of the 2013 Finals. No skills, yet he hit the game winning shot in G7 of the same Finals. Right in Kawhi's face as well. No skills, yet he manages to stop the Warriors from going on a run and scored 8 straight points in the 4th Q of G7 of the 2016 Finals. Not to mention the fact that he led both teams in scoring in the 4th Q and for the series (all major statistical categories, TBH).

I could keep going on and on. There's a reason why LeBron has the most game winning buzzer beaters in the PO's in NBA history. There's a reason why he's the GOAT elimination game and G7 player.

..
LeBron averaged 46 minutes a game in that series. Iggy averaged 35 minutes off the bench and 39 minutes as the starter. Lets not act like he was playing 10 minutes off the bench and then played 30 minutes a game as the startes. Maybe you weren't old enough to understand basketball back then.

aj1987

05-01-2020, 05:08 AM

Also, outside G4, in which LeBron was truly bad, he was putting up similar numbers. 36/16/10/2/1 on 42% in the last two games of those Finals.

Maybe you weren't old enough to watch in 2007 but long story short, LeBron shot 36% (overall) in the finals.
Maybe English isn't your first language, but I fail to see what that has to do with my post. I never said it was good or great Finals series.

True but somewhat irrelevant: if you are the GOAT should you let any defender hold you to that terrible a percentage when they are guarding you? We aren't talking him going 2 for 7 on random possessions here.
Irrelevant? How? I just caught you making shit up, 3ball, and now it's irrelevant? :oldlol:

Anyways, LeBron never shot 33% over a Finals in his career. Those couple of possessions are negligible over the course of the series as well, as I proved above. Try reading it.

We are talking humans, not cars. 32 is not the same as being 36 years old. Games played has an impact but aging is far more consequential. Look at LeBron and Kobe in year 17. Is it a coincidence only the high schoolers (and the GOAT Kareem) were that great in year 17? They had the benefit if relative youth. Bird, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Jordan never even got to year 17. Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq were shells of themselves by then.
LeBron at 35 is right now just as good as he was at 32. Karl Malone was still putting up 22/9/4/2/1 at 38 in year 17. Magic had to retire because of his AIDS. Even then, after coming back after a 4 year break (in what would have been his 17th season), dude was putting up 15/6/7/1 in limited minutes. Bird wrecked his back. MJ was still winning MVP's and FMVP's at 35 (since you want to do age instead of seasons).

Again, 3 whole seasons worth of basketball is nothing to scoff at. That's a sit ton of mileage.

Irrelevant. According to the OP, if you are outplayed by another player that is a major indictment on you. In one case a 36 year old was outplayed by a 27 year old. In the other the "best player in the world" at 32 and 33 outplayed consecutively by a peak Durant. The age, rosters, etc. are legitimate mitigating factors--but per the OP's own standard (where there are no mitigating factors), LeBron failed and did so in consecutive years.
Irrelevant, because it doesn't fit your dumbass agenda? Stop it, kid. :oldlol:

Again, since you've OBVIOUSLY haven't seen a single minute of the '17 or '18 Finals, let me help you out here and educate you. Before KD went to the Warriors, LeBron routinely owned him. On the Warriors, KD had two of the greatest shooters (#1a and #1b) to ever play take the pressure off of him. That coupled with the fact that the Cavs were a shit defensive team helped him immensely. LeBron, on the other had, had only Kyrie. Love was useless and the rest of the team was garbage. Also, he was going up against 4 elite defenders in KD, Klay, Dray, and Iggy. One of whom was a DPOY.

Mr Feeny

05-01-2020, 05:14 AM

Yeah Kareem is the toughest match up for LeBron because you can't argue longevity or career cumulative stats or accolades for LeBron over Kareem.

He likely will but we don't know about injuries and now we have the Covid-19 wild card thrown in. Is there basketball next year? If so, how many games?

Why on earth are we talking about cumulative totals? Their per game averages are what's important. And Lebron obliterated Kareem in every way.
Peak level of play is for Lebron and it isnt even close.
Titles as lead dog is in Lebron's favor.
Lebron is the much better individual player.
He has the higher team impact.
He is th better offensive and definitely defensive player.

Lebron is 10 times the finals performer that Kareem is.
And last but not least, he doesn't have as may black marks in his resume as Kareem does.

LAL

05-01-2020, 05:20 AM

Lebron is a loser but what are those past prime showtime superteam KAJ rings worth as far as his ranking goes? The 1 ring in 7 years with big 0? Failed years with lakers pre Magic?

Mr Feeny

05-01-2020, 05:22 AM

Lebron is a loser but what are those past prime showtime superteam KAJ rings worth as far as his ranking goes? The 1 ring in 7 years with big 0? Failed years with lakers pre Magic?

1 title in 10 years and missed the playoffs twice and lost 3 times with homecourt advantage in his best 5 year stretch.

Then Magic came and saved him.

Roundball_Rock

05-01-2020, 11:02 AM

lost 3 times with homecourt advantage in his best 5 year stretch.

No way this guy is really this dumb. This has to be a MJ stan alt trying to make LeBron look bad since the above is what LeBron did during the 5 year window he was winning MVPs.

Why on earth are we talking about cumulative totals? Their per game averages are what's important.

Per game averages through age 35:

LeBron: 27/7/7 on 50% with 2 steals and a block
Kareem: 27/13/4 on 56% with 3 blocks and a steal

Peak level of play is for Lebron

Kareem easily outproduced LeBron in his prime. It is the same story for their peaks. Kareem won 4 MVPs in 6 years; LeBron 4 in 16 (likely soon to be 17) years. LeBron's MVPs came during a 5 year window; Kareem's over a decade. Same with MJ; first in 88' and last in 98'.

Titles as lead dog is in Lebron's favor.

Team result but Kareem has 4 as the #1 option, according to Pat Riley.

Lebron is the much better individual player.

What does he do better than Kareem besides passing and shooting threes?

He has the higher team impact.

Possibly but KAJ has a case there. I'd give LeBron the edge.

He is the better offensive and definitely defensive player.

Kareem's defensive impact dwarfs what LeBron did. Kareem allowed his perimeter players to play more aggressively knowing they had a skyscraper as a fallback to erase or change shots.

Lebron is 10 times the finals performer that Kareem is. And last but not least, he doesn't have as may black marks in his resume as Kareem does.

These have been addressed. It is odd to hear "black marks" and "finals performances" being used as an argument for LeBron.

The reason why the Heat lost the '14 Finals wasn't because of LeBron.

Irrelevant. That doesn't negate the fact Kawhi erased LeBron for significant chunks of the series. There is no equivalent with Kareem or MJ because they had things to fallback on in tough situations.

As for the '15 Finals

You listed everything except the part about Iggy taking on LeBron and causing his production to nose dive. You know, the reason why Iggy won FMVP?

So what the King ended up doing was carrying one of the three-worst supporting casts in NBA history to within two games of a championship.

That is probably his biggest strength: carrying bad or average casts to contention. That would be a legitimate argument for LeBron, not the nonsense we saw in the OP.

Maybe English isn't your first language, but I fail to see what that has to do with my post. I never said it was good or great Finals series.

You must be really bad at counting because 2011 counts as 1.

These were your own words--you forget them a day later (this explains a lot)? My comment was he failed to show up twice. Your response was 2011 counts as one. Under common construction, that implies you do not consider any of those other 8 finals as "not showing up." Since 2007 was one of those 8 finals, that means you did not classify that as a case of him "not showing up."

Irrelevant, because

Does getting outplayed by an opponent matter of not matter? In the "definitive case for LeBron" it was stated a 36 year old getting outplayed by peak 27 year old reigning MVP matters. Does it not then follow that LeBron getting outplayed by KD (twice) matters?

Whoah10115

05-01-2020, 11:15 AM

A lot of good points, but we shouldn't be so definitive on it all. But to be fair, these threads often get ugly regardless(I'm sure I have before), but now these threads are immediately troll threads.

If we're being definitive on something tho, Kareem is not the GOAT. If the answer isn't Michael Jordan, then it isn't the answer :)

aj1987

05-01-2020, 06:08 PM

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Then what are you even arguing about when you youself admit that LeBron has the higher team impact? You're literally admitting that LeBron is more conducive to winning tha

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Hahaha! That's the difference. LeBron was the perimeter player shutting down perimeter players. He was also guarding the paint for a bit during his prime/peak. There's a reason as to why his teams were among the best defensive teams in the league with mediocre to above average defensive players.

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The reason why the Heat lost the '14 Finals wasn't because of LeBron. Wade was misused the entire season and his "load management" strategy backfired massively. Dude was straight up trash in the Finals and shot like 20 something percent after the first three games. Dude was terrible in G1 as well. Bosh was just flat out awful. He couldn't even limit ancient Duncan and was getting embarrassed. Also, there were no "key junctures" in '14. It was a massive blowout after the first two games.

You listed everything except the part about Iggy taking on LeBron and causing his production to nose dive. You know, the reason why Iggy won FMVP?
JR Smith 0/9 FG
Delly 0/7 FG
J. Jones 0/3 FG
Shumpert 0/2 FG

Total 0/21 FG

So, was Iggy responsible for that as well?

The Cavs outside LeBron shot 37% from the field and 29% from the 3.

You keep saying irrelevant and all that shit, but take away Pippen from the '91-'93 and '96-'98 Bulls, do you think MJ is winning a single chip? Remove Magic from KAJ's team and he doesn't even make the Finals. LeBron took 2 games from a 67 win team while being a 54 win team, with his #2 and #3 missing.

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So, what are you even arguing about? KAJ missed the PO's during his PRIME with an All-Star teammate by his side. Dude has a top 5 GOAT player from '80 onwards. Replace LeBron with KAJ and the Cavs/Heat make 3 Finals at BEST and win probably ONE title in that span and that's the '11 title.

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Again, is English not your first language? It's a simple question.

He didn't fail to show up. Dude was on a trash ass team, going up against multiple HOF'ers in their PRIMES. His team shouldn't have been in the Finals in the first place.

He failed to show up in '11. '07 wasn't the same. Not even close. Look at his stats in the 4th Q's of those Finals, BTW.

Oh, and can we get KAJ's stats from the Finals when he was 22?

While you're at it, just look at that Bullets team that he beat to win his first title and compare it to the Spurs team that LeBron went up against. LeBron would've annihilated that team during his rookie season.

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Irrelevant, because it doesn't fit your dumbass agenda? Stop it, kid.

Again, since you've OBVIOUSLY haven't seen a single minute of the '17 or '18 Finals, let me help you out here and educate you. Before KD went to the Warriors, LeBron routinely owned him. On the Warriors, KD had two of the greatest shooters (#1a and #1b) to ever play take the pressure off of him. That coupled with the fact that the Cavs were a shit defensive team helped him immensely. LeBron, on the other had, had only Kyrie. Love was useless and the rest of the team was garbage. Also, he was going up against 4 elite defenders in KD, Klay, Dray, and Iggy. One of whom was a DPOY.

red1

05-01-2020, 06:09 PM

lebron's better. you could still argue in favor of kareem's career. one more ring for lbj would cement it in his favor IMO.

all-time draft you'd take lbj first.

Roundball_Rock

05-01-2020, 06:51 PM

Then what are you even arguing about when you youself admit that LeBron has the higher team impact? You're literally admitting that LeBron is more conducive to winning tha

There is a catch with LeBron: he is probably the GOAT at raising the floor of scrubs or average players. He can't mesh as well with stars as his peers. If your goal is to win 50 games with scrubs LeBron is your guy. If your goal is to win chips with an already good team Kareem, MJ are better bets.

Kareem himself has shown a significant floor raising capacity. Not what LeBron did but notable nonetheless. Kareem is more conducive to a high ceiling since Kareem meshed with lots of stars. LeBron consistently reduces the production of other stars. Guys who were scoring 24-26 a game become spot up shooters fed open looks in the LeBron system. That works great if you are a scrub but not so much if you are a perennial all-star. Wade has to take a backseat. Kareem, Jordan can seamlessly fit in with other stars.

There's a reason as to why his teams were among the best defensive teams in the league with mediocre to above average defensive players.

Why were his best defenses the ones during his first stint with Cavs? Those were defensive specialists. LeBron's teams have had great offenses but inconsistent defenses over the years. LeBron was an elite defender only briefly.

The reason why the Heat lost the '14 Finals wasn't because of LeBron.

The Cavs outside LeBron shot 37% from the field and 29% from the 3.

Red herrings.

take away Pippen from the '91-'93 and '96-'98 Bulls, do you think MJ is winning a single chip? Remove Magic from KAJ's team and he doesn't even make the Finals.

No, but MJ and KAJ can't be limited the way LeBron was in 07', 11', and the times in 14' and 15' when he had Iggy and Kawhi on him because they have things they can rely on when times get tough. LeBron doesn't. We are talking GOAT. That weakness is a key difference between him and them. What is LeBron's go to move? Bull rushing to the rim? That won't always work, especially against elite defenders.

KAJ missed the PO's during his PRIME with an All-Star teammate by his side

There was no other all-star on the Lakers while KAJ was there until 1980. https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/all_star.html

Kareem was traded to LA and they gutted the team to get there. He could have taken the easier route and wait a year and sign as a free agent with a good roster but he wanted Milwaukee to get something back for him. You saw how Cleveland, Miami, Cleveland again were in shambles when LeBron left them as a free agent, right?

Replace LeBron with KAJ and the Cavs/Heat make 3 Finals at BEST and win probably ONE title in that span and that's the '11 title.

They win more. With KAJ there Wade can be Wade, Bosh and Love don't have to become floor spacers, etc. KAJ would get more out of those teams than LeBron did. KAJ also wouldn't melt down in the finals like we saw in 11'. That was a mental breakdown.

He didn't fail to show up.

The GOAT shooting 36% can't be described as anything but not showing up. All he was asked to do was make a freaking jumper and he couldn't do it. That is all you need to do to shut the GOAT down? Ask him to score from more than 3 feet away?

Roundball_Rock

05-01-2020, 06:51 PM

Oh, and can we get KAJ's stats from the Finals when he was 22?

When KAJ joined a 29 win expansion team and turned them into a 56 win ECF team? 35/17/4 in the playoffs. We can't do an apples to apples comparison here since LeBron came out of high school but he did not get past the second round until his fourth year. They almost did in 06' but scoring 61 points in a Game 7 won't cut it in the NBA.

just look at that Bullets team that he beat to win his first title and compare it to the Spurs team that LeBron went up against.

They had three HOF, same as the Spurs in 07'.

Before KD went to the Warriors, LeBron routinely owned him. On the Warriors, KD had two of the greatest shooters (#1a and #1b) to ever play take the pressure off of him.

KD hit his peak those years. He became a strong defender in GS. Coincident with that, LeBron was in his 30s and continued to decline (from his Miami era peak). It wasn't just Curry and Klay being there. If that was it, KD had two future MVPs alongside him in 12' and got outplayed by (prime) LeBron then.

aj1987

05-07-2020, 04:50 AM

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That's not even remotely true. LeBron and Wade was beastly whenever Wade was healthy. Kyrie and LeBron was a really good duo as well, even though Kyrie couldn't guard a traffic cone. It's just a flat out like to say that LeBron doesn't do good on good teams or play well with other good players. Heck, he's doing it right now, in his 17th season.

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Again, that's not remotely true. You keep throwing out these buzz words with ZERO proof and ignore all the FACTS that I keep posting. I feel like you're just trolling at this point.

Wade wasn't healthy after the 2011 season. Yeah, he did take a back seat, but who wouldn't. You think if Hakeem and MJ played together during their primes, MJ would take a backseat to Hakeem? MJ is a better player than Hakeem and he would be the best player on that team. With that being said, when Wade was healthy, he was still putting up massive numbers. Kyrie as well. AD was doing it did season. You do know that Wade was averaging 26 PPG while playing WITH LeBron, right?

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Do you even know basketball? Did you ever even watch LeBron play? Do you know who his teammates were? There's a reason why LeBron was top 2 in DPOY voting a couple of times and top 5 other times. Dude is a great defender. Inconsistent defenses tend to happen when you have teammates like Love and Irving, who are among the worst defenders in the league. Bosh, who hated physicality and made ****ing Hibbert look like prime Shaq.

Red herrings.
Hold the L and move on. You have absolutely no argument for these FACTS.

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Yeah, no skill at all, yet he scored 16 points on 7/10 shooting in the G6 of the 2013 Finals. No skills, yet he hit the game winning shot in G7 of the same Finals. Right in Kawhi's face as well. No skills, yet he manages to stop the Warriors from going on a run and scored 8 straight points in the 4th Q of G7 of the 2016 Finals. Not to mention the fact that he led both teams in scoring in the 4th Q and for the series (all major statistical categories, TBH).

I could keep going on and on. There's a reason why LeBron has the most game winning buzzer beaters in the PO's in NBA history. There's a reason why he's the GOAT elimination game and G7 player.

You can keep bringing it up all you want, but LeBron dropping 36/13/9 on 40% is him getting limited. That's with a team full of G-League players, BTW.

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LeBron took a 57 win team to the Finals and beat a 73 win team. Did I mention the FACT that he did it with no other All-Star on his team? Meanwhile, here you are, complaining about how KAJ needed All-Stars just to get to the PO's. :roll:

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Are you for real, dude? Jesus Christ! KAJ demanded a trade. Dude wanted out of Milwaukee. No shit, you're going to get returns for a player when you're trading him. You're comparing that to a dude who NEVER demanded a trade or even hinted at one in his entire career? The Cavs were trash when LeBron left? What does that tell you about who he was surrounded with?

aj1987

05-07-2020, 05:10 AM

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Wade was Wade when he was healthy and playing with LeBron. You seem to keep ignoring that one simple FACT. Love and Bosh playing next to KAJ are not going to make them tougher. Both were/are soft AF. Love is a horrific defender and playing with KAJ is not going to help with that. As I said, KAJ on LeBron's teams makes 3 Finals at BEST and probably wins one.

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I never said LeBron was the GOAT, so I don't know why you're bringing up stuff up.

He didn't fail to show up. Dude was on a trash ass team, going up against multiple HOF'ers in their PRIMES. His team shouldn't have been in the Finals in the first place.

He failed to show up in '11. '07 wasn't the same. Not even close. Look at his stats in the 4th Q's of those Finals, BTW.

Oh, and can we get KAJ's stats from the Finals when he was 22?

While you're at it, just look at that Bullets team that he beat to win his first title and compare it to the Spurs team that LeBron went up against. LeBron would've annihilated that team during his rookie season.

When KAJ joined a 29 win expansion team and turned them into a 56 win ECF team? 35/17/4 in the playoffs. We can't do an apples to apples comparison here since LeBron came out of high school but he did not get past the second round until his fourth year. They almost did in 06' but scoring 61 points in a Game 7 won't cut it in the NBA.
Kareem had 2 All-Stars on his team. What are you smoking, kid? If they were LeBron's teammates, you'd be crying about how LeBron can't even win a title with that kind of help.

Yes, I agree that scoring 61 points as a team won't cut it. How about his teammates shooting 22% from the field? How about your starting 7'3" center grabbing 3 rebounds in 33 minutes of playing time. Almost 3 times fewer rebounds than the opposing 6'3" PG? Go and try to watch that game. If it's too much, try reading the box score of that game.

They had three HOF, same as the Spurs in 07'.
That team BARELY won over 40 games. They won 42 games. The Spurs won 58 and were the #5 offense and #2 defense.

KD hit his peak those years. He became a strong defender in GS. Coincident with that, LeBron was in his 30s and continued to decline (from his Miami era peak). It wasn't just Curry and Klay being there. If that was it, KD had two future MVPs alongside him in 12' and got outplayed by (prime) LeBron then.
I like how you make excuses for KD, but still hold LeBron accountable for losing to the Spurs as a 22 year old kid, who was playing with trash.

MVP KD was getting outplayed by LeBron. In 2014.

Again, since you've OBVIOUSLY haven't seen a single minute of the '17 or '18 Finals, let me help you out here and educate you. Before KD went to the Warriors, LeBron routinely owned him. On the Warriors, KD had two of the greatest shooters (#1a and #1b) to ever play take the pressure off of him. That coupled with the fact that the Cavs were a shit defensive team helped him immensely. LeBron, on the other had, had only Kyrie. Love was useless and the rest of the team was garbage. Also, he was going up against 4 elite defenders in KD, Klay, Dray, and Iggy. One of whom was a DPOY.