Busting the MYTH that MJ found Paxon for 5 straight jumpers (Game 5, 91 Finals)

[IllegalD]

For as long as I can remember (and it was repeated again during the Last Dance episode) the narrative was that after some convincing from Phil MJ assisted Paxon for 5 straight jumpers to clinch the 1991 Finals against the Lakers. Showing how MJ truly "evolved" from no-conscience gunslinger to "unselfish team player that made his teammates better"

But if you actually watch the game/footage, MJ is only responsible for assisting in 2 of Paxon's 5 jumpshots.

Can someone explain to me why this false narrative is always pushed?

(I'd especially like to hear from 3ball on the matter...)

[trada7029]

Because the entire narrative is bullshit to begin with - MJ didn't discover how to find open teammates in the waning moments of Game 5 - he was already averaging 11 apg

The media simply creates these overly simplistic narratives because they think they need to appeal to Joe the Plumber.. and it also makes their job easier than actually knowing what's going on... If a more complicated but more accurate narrative is introduced, they'll reject it in favor of erroneous simplicity.

Another fake narrative is that Pippen did MJ this huge solid by guarding Magic for a few quarters in the series... the problem is that forwards usually guard Magic, so Pippen should've been on him the entire series, not just a few quarters

MJ did Pippen a solid by guarding Magic from the outset, and most of the series because everyone knew the matchup would be too much for Pippen mentally heading into his first Finals.. Yet Pippen is given credit for doing his damn job (and only for a few quarters because MJ still mostly guarded Magic)

[Roundball_Rock]

Who were the other assists from? Pippen had a 32/13/7/5 game but is erased from the game's story so I suspect he had a couple too.

[97 bulls]

Because the entire narrative is bullshit to begin with - MJ didn't discover how to find open teammates in the waning moments of Game 5 - he was already averaging 11 apg

The media simply creates these overly simplistic narratives because they think they need to appeal to Joe the Plumber.. and it also makes their job easier than actually knowing what's going on... If a more complicated but more accurate narrative is introduced, they'll reject it in favor of erroneous simplicity.

Another fake narrative is that Pippen did MJ this huge solid by guarding Magic for a few quarters in the series... the problem is that forwards usually guard Magic, so Pippen should've been on him the entire series, not just a few quarters

MJ did Pippen a solid by guarding Magic from the outset, and most of the series because everyone knew the matchup would be too much for Pippen mentally heading into his first Finals.. Yet Pippen is given credit for doing his damn job (and only for a few quarters because MJ still mostly guarded Magic)

Bro. Why would Pippen have to defend Magic when he at SF was defending Worthy. The Lakers SF.

[Roundball_Rock]

Bro. Why would Pippen have to defend Magic when he at SF was defending Worthy. The Lakers SF.

Who was their leading scorer.

[trada7029]

Who were the other assists from? Pippen had a 32/13/7/5 game but is erased from the game's story so I suspect he had a couple too.

Isn't it funny how Pippen had his best offensive game in the one game he didn't guard magic or worthy AT ALL?

And notice how MJ hit 13 straight shots and went 15-18 in the game that Pippen guarded Magic the most (game 2)...

Hmmmm...

Could it be that..... having a lesser load defensively gives you more energy for offense??!?..

it sure looks like it - and this applies to TEAMS as well - we already know that Lebron's ball-dominance doesn't shift defenses/wear down teams like the ball movement he faces at the championship level, so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively (14' Finals).. Bron-ball loses the attrition battle at the championship level... Ball-dominance is easier to guard than ball movement

[97 bulls]

Isn't it funny how Pippen had his best offensive game in the one game he didn't guard magic or worthy AT ALL?

And notice how MJ hit 13 straight shots and went 15-18 in the game that Pippen guarded Magic the most (game 2)...

Hmmmm...

Could it be that..... having a lesser load defensively gives you more energy for offense??!?..

it sure looks like it - and this applies to TEAMS as well - we already know that Lebron's ball-dominance doesn't shift defenses/wear down teams like the ball movement he faces at the championship level, so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively (14' Finals).. Bron-ball loses the attrition battle at the championship level... Ball-dominance is easier to guard than ball movement
My God we may have a breakthrough here.

[tpols]

My God we may have a breakthrough here.

its hilarious he doesnt see it lol...

pippen had a larger defensive impact and workload for majority of bulls playoff series.

[Axe]

its hilarious he doesnt see it lol...

pippen had a larger defensive impact and workload for majority of bulls playoff series.
Either he's blind or just plain dumb to recognize pippen's very role during their championship seasons.

[RRR3]

3ball the fact that even other LeBron haters are tired of you spamming your agenda driven bullshit should tell you something. Stop it. Try becoming a contributing member of the board, or if you must troll, at least be funny and creative about it.

[SouBeachTalents]

3ball the fact that even other LeBron haters are tired of you spamming your agenda driven bullshit should tell you something. Stop it. Try becoming a contributing member of the board, or if you must troll, at least be funny and creative about it.
Because the entire narrative is bullshit to begin with - MJ didn't discover how to find open teammates in the waning moments of Game 5 - he was already averaging 11 apg

The media simply creates these overly simplistic narratives because they think they need to appeal to Joe the Plumber.. and it also makes their job easier than actually knowing what's going on... If a more complicated but more accurate narrative is introduced, they'll reject it in favor of erroneous simplicity.

Another fake narrative is that Pippen did MJ this huge solid by guarding Magic for a few quarters in the series... the problem is that forwards usually guard Magic, so Pippen should've been on him the entire series, not just a few quarters

MJ did Pippen a solid by guarding Magic from the outset, and most of the series because everyone knew the matchup would be too much for Pippen mentally heading into his first Finals.. Yet Pippen is given credit for doing his damn job (and only for a few quarters because MJ still mostly guarded Magic)

Isn't it funny how Pippen had his best offensive game in the one game he didn't guard magic or worthy AT ALL?

And notice how MJ hit 13 straight shots and went 15-18 in the game that Pippen guarded Magic the most (game 2)...

Hmmmm...

Could it be that..... having a lesser load defensively gives you more energy for offense??!?..

it sure looks like it - and this applies to TEAMS as well - we already know that Lebron's ball-dominance doesn't shift defenses/wear down teams like the ball movement he faces at the championship level, so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively (14' Finals).. Bron-ball loses the attrition battle at the championship level... Ball-dominance is easier to guard than ball movement

[HoopsNY]

For as long as I can remember (and it was repeated again during the Last Dance episode) the narrative was that after some convincing from Phil MJ assisted Paxon for 5 straight jumpers to clinch the 1991 Finals against the Lakers. Showing how MJ truly "evolved" from no-conscience gunslinger to "unselfish team player that made his teammates better"

But if you actually watch the game/footage, MJ is only responsible for assisting in 2 of Paxon's 5 jumpshots.

Can someone explain to me why this false narrative is always pushed?

(I'd especially like to hear from 3ball on the matter...)

Does it really matter, though? Jordan averaged 11.4 assists in that series. No other player has averaged more assists in a finals series than two other guys, Bob Cousy and Magic.

[Roundball_Rock]

Isn't it funny how Pippen had his best offensive game in the one game he didn't guard magic or worthy AT ALL?


Pippen had a trend of big games in closeout games those years. Fatal9 did a lot of work documenting it when he was here.


pippen had a larger defensive impact and workload for majority of bulls playoff series.

Yup, he was the QB of the offense and defense, had the largest defensive role, was the primary playmaker, asked to score 20 points, and to be their second leading rebounder (usually the C or PF would do that, not the SF).

[97 bulls]

Pippen had a trend of big games in closeout games those years. Fatal9 did a lot of work documenting it when he was here.



Yup, he was the QB of the offense and defense, had the largest defensive role, was the primary playmaker, asked to score 20 points, and to be their second leading rebounder (usually the C or PF would do that, not the SF).

Oh wow. I remember Fatal9. Wow I wonder how hes doing

[Roundball_Rock]

Oh wow. I remember Fatal9. Wow I wonder how hes doing

Not sure. He left years ago and apparently has never returned. ShaqAttack is another loss.

[HoopsNY]

Pippen had a trend of big games in closeout games those years. Fatal9 did a lot of work documenting it when he was here.



Yup, he was the QB of the offense and defense, had the largest defensive role, was the primary playmaker, asked to score 20 points, and to be their second leading rebounder (usually the C or PF would do that, not the SF).

Did he have the largest defensive role? I recall Mj being the one switching between Joe Dumars and Isiah Thomas between '87-91. He guarded Magic the majority of the Lakers series. Phil switched Mj onto KJ in the Phoenix series. He guarded Clyde, Starks, Miller, and Harper. Phil switched Mj onto Gary Payton in the Sonics series. In the Magic series in 1996, Phil put Pippen on Penny, but Penny played really well against Pippen. I recall Mj guarding Penny really well that series when they switched.

Other than Barkley, Dominique, and Glen Rice, did Pippen really have a bigger defensive role?

[Roundball_Rock]

Did he have the largest defensive role?

For the entire 1991-1998 period, yes, but in the first threepeat MJ took the lead on Magic, guarded Drexler, etc. Although re Magic, part of that was LA's leading scorer played the same position Pippen did.

He guarded Mullin mostly as Harper took Miller if I recall correctly. Then against Utah it was Harper on Stockton while MJ took Hornacek.

Pippen's strength was team/help defense so you can't assess that by match ups. Utah is a prime example (especially in 98'). On paper Pippen "guarded" Ostertag but in reality he played a de facto zone to disrupt the Utah offense.

[juju151111]

its hilarious he doesnt see it lol...

pippen had a larger defensive impact and workload for majority of bulls playoff series.

Did you even read what you replied too idiot. Mj guarded Magic more abd had better series. Mj guarded Clyde more and had the better series. When KJ was going off that one game they switched Mj on him for 4th and 3Ots and Mj shut his ass down. Still best offensive player.
Penny hardaway gave Pippen the ****ing work from 95 to 96. Mj guarded Isiah in 89 and 90 playoffs.

[juju151111]

Pippen had a trend of big games in closeout games those years. Fatal9 did a lot of work documenting it when he was here.



Yup, he was the QB of the offense and defense, had the largest defensive role, was the primary playmaker, asked to score 20 points, and to be their second leading rebounder (usually the C or PF would do that, not the SF).

Why are you lying to the people? Mj was the one who guarded Isaiah in the playoffs in 89 and 90. Isiah shot horribly but pistons were deep and everyone went off. Mj guarded Magic the most, Mj guarded Clyde the most. Penny hardaway use to destroy Pippen. Mj guarded Stockton, Steve smith. Tf you mean?

[juju151111]

For the entire 1991-1998 period, yes, but in the first threepeat MJ took the lead on Magic, guarded Drexler, etc. Although re Magic, part of that was LA's leading scorer played the same position Pippen did.

He guarded Mullin mostly as Harper took Miller if I recall correctly. Then against Utah it was Harper on Stockton while MJ took Hornacek.

Pippen's strength was team/help defense so you can't assess that by match ups. Utah is a prime example (especially in 98'). On paper Pippen "guarded" Ostertag but in reality he played a de facto zone to disrupt the Utah offense.

how cpuld you say yes when MJ guarded Magic,Clyde,KJ in that 3ot game after he went off on everyone but M? Than he got put on Gary payton. Also when Mj was matched up with Penny he didn't look good, but he manhandled Pippen

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Here's what I didn't get either. Lakers won game 1 in Chicago. Game 3 in LA, tied 1-1, LA was up late in the game after a big 3 in the corner.
Down 2, with 10 seconds left, Jordan took the ball the full length of the court and hit a buttery smooth jumpshot to tie the game with 3 seconds left / sending it to OT and crushing LA. I remember how big of a deal that shot was, as had he missed LA would've had home court.
No idea why that buzzer beater / finals game tying / from behind shot wasn't included in the '91 playback, but it was huge.

[ArbitraryWater]

Did you even read what you replied too idiot. Mj guarded Magic more abd had better series. Mj guarded Clyde more and had the better series. When KJ was going off that one game they switched Mj on him for 4th and 3Ots and Mj shut his ass down. Still best offensive player.
Penny hardaway gave Pippen the ****ing work from 95 to 96. Mj guarded Isiah in 89 and 90 playoffs.

listen emotional clown, MJ isn't as good as you think.

He needed Pip. Badly.

Your delusions are crumbling.

Everyone is starting to notice.

[tontoz]

I don't remember 5 straight assists from Jordan to Paxon at the end of the game. I also don't remember people claiming that. I remember it was 2 or 3, including the dagger to end the game.

Jordan did it grudgingly too after Jackson got on his case.

In regards to Pippen guarding Magic it worked well that first game, in part because Magic wasn't expecting it. They were ready for it the next time and Jackson didn't want to try it again but Pippen/Jodan decided to do it again anyway and it didn't work as well because they had prepared for it.

[juju151111]

listen emotional clown, MJ isn't as good as you think.

He needed Pip. Badly.

Your delusions are crumbling.

Everyone is starting to notice.

So uou didn't address anything. Good job

[Axe]

Lmao 3ball's alt got banned. Again.

[Pushxx]

3ball the fact that even other LeBron haters are tired of you spamming your agenda driven bullshit should tell you something. Stop it. Try becoming a contributing member of the board, or if you must troll, at least be funny and creative about it.

:oldlol::oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

For the entire 1991-1998 period, yes, but in the first threepeat MJ took the lead on Magic, guarded Drexler, etc. Although re Magic, part of that was LA's leading scorer played the same position Pippen did.

He guarded Mullin mostly as Harper took Miller if I recall correctly. Then against Utah it was Harper on Stockton while MJ took Hornacek.

Pippen's strength was team/help defense so you can't assess that by match ups. Utah is a prime example (especially in 98'). On paper Pippen "guarded" Ostertag but in reality he played a de facto zone to disrupt the Utah offense.

I disagree with this. Jordan was the most impactful player in that time and I think Pippen largely gets that credit for the two seasons that Mike was away. For one, Pippen's tenure starts in '87 and from that time onward it was Mj guarding better players, not the other way around.

And in that 10 year stretch, I believe it was MJ who was consistently in the top 5 for the DPOY voting, more so than Pippen. So that reflects the regular season as well.

[Roundball_Rock]

Technically 1988 since we speak of seasons in the year they end. If you are talking 1988-1998 then it is easily MJ. If it is 1991-1998 then there is a debate. If it is 1995-1998 then easily Pippen.

[andgar923]

LOL @ the old myth that Pip was always guarding the main offensive threat.

It is a MYTH that has been debunked repeatedly.

And to be honest, MJ was the shut down player. Whenever Pip was getting lit up MJ was the one to shut him down most of the time (not gonna say 100%, but meh... f(ck it.. yeah).

MJ was not only guarding the opposing team's top scorer as equally as Pip, he was also roaming the court helping (like Pip) while taking on the scoring load facing double and triple teams creating wide open shots for everyone else.

People really try hard to overrate Pip.

He was a great addition, a great 'role' player that helped MJ and made his job easier. But let's not try to get shit twisted.

Btw... Pip is a punk @ss b*tch.

He's jealous, resentful, has an inferiority complex, ungrateful, jealous. MJ goes out of his way to give him and his teammates props (perhaps much more than he should) while the ungrateful tw@t cries for attention. He would've been forgotten, an unknown player if he stayed with Seattle. He would've bounced around the league before finally retiring from a migraine headache.

[Axe]

So after all these times, pippen is just a mere role player? 🥴

[andgar923]

So after all these times, pippen is just a mere role player? ��

One of the greatest role players, yes.

An ungrateful one.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Bulls had such dominant defenses before Pippen got there, right? :lol

[andgar923]

The Bulls had such dominant defenses before Pippen got there, right? :lol

Of course not.

He played a huge role in helping MJ on defence, MJ did a great job in turning him into a great defender. Teaching him proper angles but more importantly making him tougher mentally by going at him every day in practice.

Nobody is denying Pip had a big impact on the Bulls' success, but overrating him is only damaging him instead of helping him.

[Roundball_Rock]

Doug Collins spending extra time in practice with rookies Pippen and Grant to focus on defense had nothing to do with it I'm sure. All MJ! That is why the Wizards and Bobcats/Hornets have dominated defensively under MJ's tutelage.

[andgar923]

Doug Collins spending extra time in practice with rookies Pippen and Grant to focus on defense had nothing to do with it I'm sure. All MJ! That is why the Wizards and Bobcats/Hornets have dominated defensively under MJ's tutelage.

It must've been really hard guarding Doug in practice. :lol

The Wizards skyrocketed defensively under MJ fyi.

[Smoke117]

LOL @ the old myth that Pip was always guarding the main offensive threat.

It is a MYTH that has been debunked repeatedly.

And to be honest, MJ was the shut down player. Whenever Pip was getting lit up MJ was the one to shut him down most of the time (not gonna say 100%, but meh... f(ck it.. yeah).

MJ was not only guarding the opposing team's top scorer as equally as Pip, he was also roaming the court helping (like Pip) while taking on the scoring load facing double and triple teams creating wide open shots for everyone else.

People really try hard to overrate Pip.

He was a great addition, a great 'role' player that helped MJ and made his job easier. But let's not try to get shit twisted.

Btw... Pip is a punk @ss b*tch.

He's jealous, resentful, has an inferiority complex, ungrateful, jealous. MJ goes out of his way to give him and his teammates props (perhaps much more than he should) while the ungrateful tw@t cries for attention. He would've been forgotten, an unknown player if he stayed with Seattle. He would've bounced around the league before finally retiring from a migraine headache.

lol The level of Cringe worthy nonsense you Jordan stans spew is mind blowing. Pippen at his best was a superstar. He wasn't a "role player". He's regularly in the top 30 in greatest player of all time list. Clearly you are incapable of an objective opinion if this little tangent you went off on at the end is any indication. We get it. You don't like Pippen. Saying all the stupid shit your saying just makes you look like a clown, though. Not that it was anything new to me. I've known you were a clown for years.

[Manny98]

One of the greatest role players, yes.

An ungrateful one.
Role player? :facepalm

What is it with these Jordan stans constantly undermining Pippen like he's some average scrub

[SATAN]

lol The level of Cringe worthy nonsense you Jordan stans spew is mind blowing. Pippen at his best was a superstar. He wasn't a "role player". He's regularly in the top 30 in greatest player of all time list. Clearly you are incapable of an objective opinion if this little tangent you went off on at the end is any indication. We get it. You don't like Pippen. Saying all the stupid shit your saying just makes you look like a clown, though. Not that it was anything new to me. I've known you were a clown for years.

This.

[Axe]

lol The level of Cringe worthy nonsense you Jordan stans spew is mind blowing. Pippen at his best was a superstar. He wasn't a "role player". He's regularly in the top 30 in greatest player of all time list. Clearly you are incapable of an objective opinion if this little tangent you went off on at the end is any indication. We get it. You don't like Pippen. Saying all the stupid shit your saying just makes you look like a clown, though. Not that it was anything new to me. I've known you were a clown for years.
Too bad showcasing your freaking lame bravado won't help them to comprehend your accurate but boring statement.

[SATAN]

Axe is a terrible poster, just saying.

[Axe]

Axe is a terrible poster, just saying.
The most fine example of a delusional butthurt devil. Go back to hell at once, little kiddo.

[Akeem34TheDream]

The most fine example of a delusional butthurt devil. Go back to hell at once, little kiddo.

There is nothing wrong with it but you are at MAXIMUM 15 years old.

[Roundball_Rock]

Role player? :facepalm

What is it with these Jordan stans constantly undermining Pippen like he's some average scrub

Insecurity. They think Pippen's greatness somehow diminishes Jordan's. It is sad since you don't any other fan base doing the same towards their guy's best teammate.


lol The level of Cringe worthy nonsense you Jordan stans spew is mind blowing. Pippen at his best was a superstar. He wasn't a "role player". He's regularly in the top 30 in greatest player of all time list. Clearly you are incapable of an objective opinion if this little tangent you went off on at the end is any indication. We get it. You don't like Pippen. Saying all the stupid shit your saying just makes you look like a clown, though. Not that it was anything new to me. I've known you were a clown for years.

:applause:

[Axe]

There is nothing wrong with it but you are at MAXIMUM 15 years old.
And you're a dumbass retard who sounds like an 8-year old at the most. Keep crying all day, fool. ./.

[Mr Feeny]

Doug Collins spending extra time in practice with rookies Pippen and Grant to focus on defense had nothing to do with it I'm sure. All MJ! That is why the Wizards and Bobcats/Hornets have dominated defensively under MJ's tutelage.

Atleast know what you're talking out before embarassing yourself. Doug Collins openly gives Jordan credit for working with Pippen on his defense. It was Jordan who stayed hours after practice working with Pippen and not Doug Collins. And he openly credits Jordsn for doing that.

Grab a book. Try to educate yourself instead of talking about a time period and a team that you obviously have no clue about.

[juju151111]

Atleast know what you're talking out before embarassing yourself. Doug Collins openly gives Jordan credit for working with Pippen on his defense. It was Jordan who stayed hours after practice working with Pippen and not Doug Collins. And he openly credits Jordsn for doing that.

Grab a book. Try to educate yourself instead of talking about a time period and a team that you obviously have no clue about.

Even in the Doc Horace and Pippen said Mj pushed them.

[Mr Feeny]

Even in the Doc Horace and Pippen said Mj pushed them.

Forget about the doc. It's in every Bulls and Jordan book you can find.
How old are these kids and how do people NOT know something this apodictically established.

[andgar923]

A little trolling really gets them p*ssed off and defensive.

They believe what they type too.

[97 bulls]

Forget about the doc. It's in every Bulls and Jordan book you can find.
How old are these kids and how do people NOT know something this apodictically established.

No one is denying that Jordan didnt mentor Pippen and Grant. But there has to be some kind of talent there to begin with. To say that Pippen would just be a journeyman type player had he not played alongside Jordan just isnt a fair analysis of Pippens strengths. Even coming out of College to the NBA.
https://youtu.be/8S8tOKJPZ-Q


He was compared to Magic Johnson and Dennis Rodman. That's basically what he became.

Grant was a banger.

What Jordan showed Pip and Grant was an example. He worked hard in spite of his great talent and they felt compelled to do the same.

[Roundball_Rock]

Atleast know what you're talking out before embarassing yourself. Doug Collins openly gives Jordan credit for working with Pippen on his defense. It was Jordan who stayed hours after practice working with Pippen and not Doug Collins.


Grab a book.

It is in the Halberstam or Jordan Rules book (I believe the former). :roll: Jordan did it too but Collins made it a point right out the gate, which is erased in the narrative.


But there has to be some kind of talent there to begin with. To say that Pippen would just be a journeyman type player had he not played alongside Jordan just isnt a fair analysis of Pippens strengths.

What they say is without MJ Pippen, who was the #5 pick from a small school, would not have been a star. The basis for this is that Pippen was not a star as a rookie. That is dumb as hell but they don't have the knowledge to know Pippen is not the only legend who wasn't a star as a rookie (several from his own era fit the same bill but you have that in every era. Kawhi, Harden, Butler in this era for example).

Here is an article in the Chicago Tribune before the draft so the thoughts aren't influenced by knowing how his NBA career turned out:


The Bulls have been trying desperately to move up from their No. 8 spot to draft Pippen. They are concerned that Sacramento at No. 6 or Cleveland at No. 7 would beat them to Pippen.

Teams tried positioning themselves to get a crack at Pippen.

''We tried desperately to move up to get him,'' said Detroit General Manager Jack McCloskey, whose Pistons don`t have a first-round pick. ''He is the most interesting and exciting player in the draft. If he doesn`t go in the top 10, something`s wrong. I think he is going to be a superstar.''

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-06-22-8702150881-story.html

Last I checked, MJ was not on Detroit (or any other team). If he "needed" MJ why would Detroit project him this way?

It isn't just McCloskey. Chuck Daly had the same read ("superstar") when he saw the raw talent young Pippen had. So you have the GM and coach of a team that won 2 chips (who later coached the Dream Team). On the other hand, you have some MJ stans on the internet 30+ years later.

BTW, the GM then for Sacramento? Some guy named Bill Russell.

[Axe]

Sorry if you'd find this offensive buddy but as time goes on, why does it sound like you're not so much different from 3ball at all?

I mean the apparent persistence here does remind shades of him, except that you completely have and focus on a perspective opposite to his. Therefore, you're well respected. Plus, you somewhat sound more emotional, too.

Both of you also bump into several related threads and make similar posts just to enforce your own different views or points about, well, you already know which topic. I think more than 70% of your recent posts focuses on that alone.