Why did Ron Harper's production went down so much when he joined the bulls?

[dirkdiggler41]

He went from scoring 20ppg to 7ppg. He still shot the same field goal percentage. When a high scoring player goes down in PPG, he usually goes up in FG%.

[SouBeachTalents]

Cutting his minutes in half probably played a role in that. I'm sure Jordan coming back from retirement didn't help his cause either

[Kblaze8855]

His final full game before becoming a bull.


https://youtu.be/uDHJIXc9jzg

Had 30/9/8 then only played a few minutes next game(last game of the season).

I don’t believe he had another 30 point game in his career.

[Overdrive]

Aside from joining a stacked team didn't he have lingering issues from an older injury? Can't exactly remember what it was tbh.

[97 bulls]

He had a hard time grasping the offense initially. The triangle is not an easy offense to learn. Harper could still score. But his game is more of an open court slash to the basket type of game.

[Phoenix]

Aside from joining a stacked team didn't he have lingering issues from an older injury? Can't exactly remember what it was tbh.

I think he had some knee troubles by that point IIRC.

[andgar923]

I think he had some knee troubles by that point IIRC.

This.

I think he was having knee issues before he joined.

[Smoke117]

He was scoring 20 points on 18 shots on a team that won 27 games. Those 20 points were as about as empty as they come. He was through scoring 20ppg in any kind of meaningful way. His main problem on the Bulls in 95 was that he had a lot of trouble grasping the triangle offense. He didn't have the highest of BBIQ's.

[Smoke117]

Aside from joining a stacked team didn't he have lingering issues from an older injury? Can't exactly remember what it was tbh.

The ****? lol. The 95 bulls were stacked?

[Overdrive]

The ****? lol. The 95 bulls were stacked?

I thought they won 55 without Jordan and were close to winning.

[Smoke117]

I thought they won 55 without Jordan and were close to winning.

1. I was never one of those who said that.
2. They lost Horace Grant for nothing.

Ron Harper was never anything close to a 20ppg on a winning team anymore, period. That and the fact that it took him forever to grasp the triangle offense is why he fell off so much.

[Overdrive]

1. I was never one of those who said that.
2. They lost Horace Grant for nothing.

Without bullshit, as said he had health issues. I don't know if he was on minute restrictions or not as it was the first season I watched the NBA and was pretty young back then. What I obviously meant was the Bulls with Jordan. Of course technically he didn't join "that" team. But how many games did he have to bounce back/get used to the Bulls? 50? I'd guess without looking it up he had a way higher USG% on the Clippers than even on the Jordanless Bulls aswell.

[dbugz]

No MJ no Rings


MJ the GOATTTTTT

[scuzzy]

Harper was a career 20ppg scorer and one of league's best defenders up until he joined the Bulls, loved him on the Cavs


Like Kukoc, Grant and several other Bulls at the time. All-Star tier that were marketed as role players

[warriorfan]

LeBron’s 3rd option put out prime Kareem Abdul Jabbar/ Giannis numbers and was a rebounding champion. 26/12.5/4.5 on 59% TS. Greater numbers than Kobe’s second option during his back to back title run. Let that sink in for a moment.

[DoctorP]

beacuse his role was to play defense and hit the occasional open shot

[Soundwave]

I think there must've been an injury because he was a shell of himself after leaving the Clippers.

Like Luc Longley looked like a better player than Harp on nights.

And it wasn't like just the Jordan factor, Harper was playing like ass for the Bulls in 94-95 before Jordan even came back.

[Roundball_Rock]

I think there must've been an injury because he was a shell of himself after leaving the Clippers.

I think it was something dumb by the Bulls, like not examining him medically. I don't remember the specifics but the Bulls did not due their full due diligence and just assumed they would get the guy that was in LA.

Harper was their attempt to get a second scoring option with MJ gone, after the lack of a second scorer was a key factor in them losing to NY.

[Roundball_Rock]

LeBron’s 3rd option put out prime Kareem Abdul Jabbar/ Giannis numbers and was a rebounding champion. 26/12.5/4.5 on 59% TS.

:facepalm

[Manny98]

We all know why :lol

[Soundwave]

We all know why :lol

Yeah because Jordan somehow caused Harper to average 6 ppg while he was playing baseball somehow.

[Soundwave]

I think it was something dumb by the Bulls, like not examining him medically. I don't remember the specifics but the Bulls did not due their full due diligence and just assumed they would get the guy that was in LA.

Harper was their attempt to get a second scoring option with MJ gone, after the lack of a second scorer was a key factor in them losing to NY.

Apparently Harper's knees were screwed big time. Other tip off is he was shot jacking a lot on the crappy Clippers ... 42 FG%.

[Roundball_Rock]

Apparently Harper's knees were screwed big time. Other tip off is he was shot jacking a lot on the crappy Clippers ... 42 FG%.

It sucks but at least he reinvented himself as a defensive player and provided value that way to the threepeat team but he was shaky in 95'. He even got benched for Myers at one point.

[RRR3]

Yeah because Jordan somehow caused Harper to average 6 ppg while he was playing baseball somehow.
:lol

[Manny98]

Yeah because Jordan somehow caused Harper to average 6 ppg while he was playing baseball somehow.
I didn't say Jordan, pipe down babyboi :oldlol:

[LostCause]

I didn't say Jordan, pipe down babyboi :oldlol:

Tell us why

[warriorfan]

:facepalm

In the year before Kevin Love joined LeBron he put up 26.1/12.5/4.4/59% TS. The only other players to ever achieve this is prime Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Giannis.

https://i.postimg.cc/J7gW6ZCd/4162-AD91-CEA8-492-D-B988-BB7-A041-BC878.png

Sources:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=26.1&c2stat=trb_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=12.5&c3stat=ast_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=4.4&c4stat=ts_pct&c4comp=gt&c4val=.591&order_by=age
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html

[oldtimer28]

beacuse his role was to play defense and hit the occasional open shot

This.

Plus he definitely looked much more athletic at the Clippers. However, he was still great with the bulls in his role.

[Roundball_Rock]

This.

That wasn't supposed to be his role. He was signed to be the second scorer the Bulls lacked with MJ retiring. That became his role because he failed at his original.


In the year before Kevin Love joined LeBron he put up 26.1/12.5/4.4/59% TS

Yeah, and Kareem put up 35/17/5 on 60% TS. Giannis 30/14/6 on 61% TS. Love was a nice player but Kareem is a GOAT and Giannis has top 10 potential.

[SouBeachTalents]

That wasn't supposed to be his role. He was signed to be the second scorer the Bulls lacked with MJ retiring. That became his role because he failed at his original.



Yeah, and Kareem put up 35/17/5 on 60% TS. Giannis 30/14/6 on 61% TS. Love was a nice player but Kareem is a GOAT and Giannis has top 10 potential.
Not to mention, had this season continued, Kareem & Giannis would've both won MVP and led their teams to 60+ wins. Love led the Wolves to 40 wins and didn't even finish top 10 in MVP voting

[Roundball_Rock]

Not to mention, had this season continued, Kareem & Giannis would've both won MVP and led their teams to 60+ wins. Love led the Wolves to 40 wins and didn't even finish top 10 in MVP voting

Good points. People keep ignoring how being on a bad team inflates stats when they went to hype Love and Bosh. Zach Lavine is scoring 26 PPG on a bad team. On a contender he would be the #3 scorer (and then may still only be the fourth best player).

I think it is revealing Love became the #3, not Irving. Love was the more credentialed and experienced player.

[SouBeachTalents]

Good points. People keep ignoring how being on a bad team inflates stats when they went to hype Love and Bosh. Zach Lavine is scoring 26 PPG on a bad team. On a contender he would be the #3 scorer (and then may still only be the fourth best player).

I think it is revealing Love became the #3, not Irving. Love was the more credentialed and experienced player.
To be fair to Bosh & Love, I don't think they were put in a good position to thrive individually playing with LeBron as the 3rd option, he really needed them to primarily space the floor on offense and hit outside shots. But in general, it amazes me how much stock people put into stats that players put up on losing teams. If you're not even playing at .500 for the majority of your seasons, clearly those numbers aren't making much of an impact

[Roundball_Rock]

To be fair to Bosh & Love, I don't think they were put in a good position to thrive individually playing with LeBron as the 3rd option, he really needed them to primarily space the floor on offense and hit outside shots. But in general, it amazes me how much stock people put into stats that players put up on losing teams. If you're not even playing at .500 for the majority of your seasons, clearly those numbers aren't making much of an impact

Agreed on all. LeBron does have a problem integrating with other stars and it is a reason why his teams are worse on the court than on paper. Bosh, Love regressed a lot with LeBron, Wade slightly (excluding 11'), Kyrie stayed the same and only Davis has thrived with LeBron on the court. To be fair to LeBron, we could also credit him for keeping Kyrie from being a cancer like he has been in Boston and Brooklyn since he left but his actual production was similar. The overall trend with LeBron holds regardless (you could also add Jamison, who was a 2x all-star when he joined LeBron).

[97 bulls]

To be fair to Bosh & Love, I don't think they were put in a good position to thrive individually playing with LeBron as the 3rd option, he really needed them to primarily space the floor on offense and hit outside shots. But in general, it amazes me how much stock people put into stats that players put up on losing teams. If you're not even playing at .500 for the majority of your seasons, clearly those numbers aren't making much of an impact
Exactly

[warriorfan]

Only Love, Kareem, and Giannis our up those numbers. Kevin Love in the year before he joined LeBron had a higher VORP, BPM, and WS/48 than any year of Scottie Pippen’s.

Let us remember this was LeBron’s 3rd option, not 2nd.

[Roundball_Rock]

Only Love, Kareem, and Giannis our up those numbers.

Fun with numbers (ESPN is the king of this BS): create an arbitrary cutoff to lift or praise a clearly inferior player. The numbers speak for themselves:

Kevin Love 26.1/12.5/4.4/59% TS
Kareem put up 35/17/5 on 60% TS
Giannis 30/14/6 on 61% TS

Love did it on a trash team while the other guys did it on contenders. If you put prime Kareem and prime Giannis on a trash team their numbers go even higher.


had a higher VORP, BPM, and WS/48 than any year of Scottie Pippen’s.

How about versus Hakeem? Love had a 7.7 VORP, Hakeem's peak was 7.8. Love's BPM was 8.9, Hakeem's peak 7.5. WS/48 Love beats Hakeem again. Does this mean Love was better than Hakeem?

These are stats on a terrible team.

[SouBeachTalents]

Fun with numbers (ESPN is the king of this BS): create an arbitrary cutoff to lift or praise a clearly inferior player. The numbers speak for themselves:

Kevin Love 26.1/12.5/4.4/59% TS
Kareem put up 35/17/5 on 60% TS
Giannis 30/14/6 on 61% TS

Love did it on a trash team while the other guys did it on contenders. If you put prime Kareem and prime Giannis on a trash team their numbers go even higher.



How about versus Hakeem? Love had a 7.7 VORP, Hakeem's peak was 7.8. Love's BPM was 8.9, Hakeem's peak 7.5. WS/48 Love beats Hakeem again. Does this mean Love was better than Hakeem?

These are stats on a terrible team.
The biggest irony is he's a LeBron hater too. If we use that same method to evaluate players LeBron's gonna be top 5 by pretty much every conceivable statistical measure :oldlol:

[LAmbruh]

Wow and to think this was the Bulls 5th option


Reminds me of Odom's productivity that fell off when he came to the Lakers

[warriorfan]

Fun with numbers (ESPN is the king of this BS): create an arbitrary cutoff to lift or praise a clearly inferior player. The numbers speak for themselves:

Kevin Love 26.1/12.5/4.4/59% TS
Kareem put up 35/17/5 on 60% TS
Giannis 30/14/6 on 61% TS

Love did it on a trash team while the other guys did it on contenders. If you put prime Kareem and prime Giannis on a trash team their numbers go even higher.



How about versus Hakeem? Love had a 7.7 VORP, Hakeem's peak was 7.8. Love's BPM was 8.9, Hakeem's peak 7.5. WS/48 Love beats Hakeem again. Does this mean Love was better than Hakeem?

These are stats on a terrible team.

Thank you for answering the Op’s question. We can lock this one up now.

https://i.postimg.cc/y8QjrfqM/DEA08068-E4-BF-486-C-ADD8-C7-B7-BC342-A7-E.jpg

[Roundball_Rock]

Thank you for answering the Op’s question. We can lock this one up now.

The problem is Harper's stats on the Clippers mirrored his on a good Cavs team. He was 19/5/5 in Cleveland, 19/6/5 in LA. In Chicago he was 8/3/3.


The biggest irony is he's a LeBron hater too. If we use that same method to evaluate players LeBron's gonna be top 5 by pretty much every conceivable statistical measure :oldlol:

:oldlol:

[warriorfan]

The biggest irony is he's a LeBron hater too. If we use that same method to evaluate players LeBron's gonna be top 5 by pretty much every conceivable statistical measure :oldlol:

The true irony is LeBron stans will write off his teammates PER’s and other advanced stats because of not winning...when LeBron is 3/9. You guys don’t wanna go down the route of discrediting $tats because of losses. Will not end well for your agenda.

[SouBeachTalents]

The true irony is LeBron stans will write off his teammates PER’s and other advanced stats because of not winning...when LeBron is 3/9. You guys don’t wanna go down the route of discrediting $tats because of losses. Will not end well for your agenda.
You're comparing failing to reach .500 in the regular season on numerous occasions to winning 3 championships & reaching 9 Finals. I don't have to spell out the difference between the two

[warriorfan]

The problem is Harper's stats on the Clippers mirrored his on a good Cavs team. He was 19/5/5 in Cleveland, 19/6/5 in LA. In Chicago he was 8/3/3.



:oldlol:

Ok so bringing up Cleveland in a last ditch goal post move? Seriously expecting Harper to produce stats like he did 6 years prior and before two major knee injuries? Get out of here. You are a weak troll.

[warriorfan]

You're comparing failing to reach .500 in the regular season on numerous occasions to winning 3 championships & reaching 9 Finals. I don't have to spell out the difference between the two

Teams that fail to make 500 in the regular season made the East playoffs. LeBron doesn’t get credit to free rides to the Finals in literally the weakest conference in the history of the league.

[LAmbruh]

You're comparing failing to reach .500 in the regular season on numerous occasions to winning 3 championships & reaching 9 Finals. I don't have to spell out the difference between the two
Yep Lebron is the most successful player of the decade with the most wins by far

1) LeBron James - 510
2) James Harden - 502
3) Serge Ibaka - 497
4) Russell Westbrook - 480
5) Kevin Durant - 473


GOAT stats translating to most successful teams :applause:


East/West no difference: 35yo, #1 seed, league leader, mvp, etc, etc

[SouBeachTalents]

Teams that fail to make 500 in the regular season made the East playoffs. LeBron doesn’t get credit to free rides to the Finals in literally the weakest conference in the history of the league.
So then Bosh deserves no credit for the stats he put up while he failed to even make the playoffs most of the time he was playing in that same "weakest conference in history". And Love's teams weren't even CLOSE to making the playoffs, even in the East, for 5 of his 6 seasons in Minny. The one season he would've made the playoffs he would've still been the 8 seed

[Axe]

Teams that fail to make 500 in the regular season made the East playoffs. LeBron doesn’t get credit to free rides to the Finals in literally the weakest conference in the history of the league.
This statement kinda reminds me of the 2007-08 season back then.

All the teams from the west finished with at least 50 wins, with denver holding the last seed in the conference since they're the lowest among the 50-win teams, winning exactly 50 games. Gs would have it made also but their 48-34 record simply wasn't enough during that time as they were the 9th seed.

Otoh, the lowest win-loss record to qualify in the 2008 postseason was the atlanta hawks, who had a measly 37-45 record then but they qualify as the 8th seed in the east due to obvious reasons. Now, it makes me laugh to think that they still did contend and play while the warriors never had that opportunity, despite besting their record from the very previous season by 6 wins.

[warriorfan]

This statement kinda reminds me of the 2007-08 season back then.

All the teams from the west finished with at least 50 wins, with denver holding the last seed in the conference since they're the lowest among the 50-win teams, winning exactly 50 games. Gs would have it made also but their 48-34 record simply wasn't enough during that time as they were the 9th seed.

Otoh, the lowest win-loss record to qualify in the 2008 postseason was the atlanta hawks, who had a measly 37-45 record then but they qualify as the 8th seed in the east due to obvious reasons. Now, it makes me laugh to think that they still did contend and play while the warriors never had that opportunity, despite besting their record from the very previous season by 6 wins.

You laugh because it is quite funny and highlights the historical levels of discrepancies between the two conferences during that period.

[scuzzy]

This statement kinda reminds me of the 2007-08 season back then.

All the teams from the west finished with at least 50 wins, with denver holding the last seed in the conference since they're the lowest among the 50-win teams, winning exactly 50 games. Gs would have it made also but their 48-34 record simply wasn't enough during that time as they were the 9th seed.

Otoh, the lowest win-loss record to qualify in the 2008 postseason was the atlanta hawks, who had a measly 37-45 record then but they qualify as the 8th seed in the east due to obvious reasons. Now, it makes me laugh to think that they still did contend and play while the warriors never had that opportunity, despite besting their record from the very previous season by 6 wins.
half the teams from that season were tanking spoon feeding wins to contenders


2009 even more so


https://i.postimg.cc/tgYQgXK7/fgujtykuyk.png (https://postimages.org/)



Carmelo 2nd seed out West, goes East and lives in the lottery

[Axe]

You laugh because it is quite funny and highlights the historical levels of discrepancies between the two conferences during that period.
Well, yeah probably if you think so but the biggest reason why i laugh about it is because some eastern teams with a losing record would give the middle finger to some western teams with a winning record simply by clinching a playoff berth as the 8th or last spot in the eastern conference while their some of their western rivals fall a seed short of it in their respective conference. 😂

[warriorfan]

Well, yeah probably if you think so but the biggest reason why i laugh about it is because some eastern teams with a losing record would give the middle finger to some western teams with a winning record simply by clinching a playoff berth as the 8th or last spot in the eastern conference while their some of their western rivals fall a seed short of it in their respective conference. ��

They want to discredit Kevin Love for not making the playoffs when his team had a better record than the sub .500 Atlanta Hawks that were fodder for LeBron’s weak eastern conference playoffs.

[Stanley Kobrick]

half the teams from that season were tanking spoon feeding wins to contenders


2009 even more so


https://i.postimg.cc/tgYQgXK7/fgujtykuyk.png (https://postimages.org/)



Carmelo 2nd seed out West, goes East and lives in the lottery
This is quite interesting, it kind of puts in perspective being a 50 win team can be misleading. I also think those 2008 Hawks and Cavaliers put up a better fight against Championship Celtics in 7 games than those Lakers did days later. It's questionable but my memory is rather bleak

[Axe]

They want to discredit Kevin Love for not making the playoffs when his team had a better record than the sub .500 Atlanta Hawks that were fodder for LeBron’s weak eastern conference playoffs.
I guess this probably stems from the fact that minnesota is known for being a laughingstock team compared to other competent teams out there in the west. If love only played for one of them, he wouldn't get the discredit he had when he was with the wolves.

[aceman]

This should be a short thread - Ron's offensive game is not suited to triangle where shooting is important.

[Docs Orders]

This should be a short thread - Ron's offensive game is not suited to triangle where shooting is important.

yeah Shaq flourished in the triangle with his jumper

[aceman]

yeah Shaq flourished in the triangle with his jumper
Shaq scored in low post. Mj scored in post but with fadaway. If Ron was jumpshooter he could too!!!
Not mention open looks triangle provided - see Wellington, Armstrong, Longley

[DoctorP]

That wasn't supposed to be his role. He was signed to be the second scorer the Bulls lacked with MJ retiring. That became his role because he failed at his original.



Yeah, and Kareem put up 35/17/5 on 60% TS. Giannis 30/14/6 on 61% TS. Love was a nice player but Kareem is a GOAT and Giannis has top 10 potential.

Krause knew Harpers knees were shot. You can look all of this up on wikipedia. Harper was not expected to return to all-star form. If anything he was a project at the time.

[ImKobe]

He was putting up those numbers on mediocre Clippers teams by the tail end of his prime. That 93 - 94 Clippers team won 27 games and was a bottom 5 offense when he averaged 20 ppg. The triangle is not friendly to point guards who like dominating the ball. I think it's more about the system than Jordan or Pippen taking away touches from him. He was averaging 7 ppg in Chicago before Jordan came back from retirement.


yeah Shaq flourished in the triangle with his jumper

Shaq was a Center, genius.

[Axe]

Krause knew Harpers knees were shot. You can look all of this up on wikipedia. Harper was not expected to return to all-star form. If anything he was a project at the time.
Everyone who reads in wikipedia should get slapped by a fish in the face.

[DoctorP]

Everyone who reads in wikipedia should get slapped by a fish in the face.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBcT2rcYlWA

[Axe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBcT2rcYlWA
Very witty.

[Overdrive]

Good points. People keep ignoring how being on a bad team inflates stats when they went to hype Love and Bosh. Zach Lavine is scoring 26 PPG on a bad team. On a contender he would be the #3 scorer (and then may still only be the fourth best player).

I think it is revealing Love became the #3, not Irving. Love was the more credentialed and experienced player.

Bosh and Love aren't comparable. When Lebron missed games Bosh became good again, even when the team sans Lebron was pretty good. He had the skills just missed the usage.

[Soundwave]

I think Zach Lavine is legit too. He just plays on a bad team. You can't pump up your scoring to 25+ ppg in the NBA even on a bad team not unless you have reasonably high end offensive ability. Maaaaybe you could do that for one year, but Lavine's had like 3 pretty high scoring seasons now in the NBA.

[Axe]

I think Zach Lavine is legit too. He just plays on a bad team. You can't pump up your scoring to 25+ ppg in the NBA even on a bad team not unless you have reasonably high end offensive ability. Maaaaybe you could do that for one year, but Lavine's had like 3 pretty high scoring seasons now in the NBA.
He along with his teammates have yet to propel the bulls to a postseason appearance someday, granting that he still stays with the team come some future seasons. With the major overhaul they're undergoing rn, I hope they'll do well.

[Roundball_Rock]

You're comparing failing to reach .500 in the regular season on numerous occasions to winning 3 championships & reaching 9 Finals.

It is crazy.


Seriously expecting Harper to produce stats like he did 6 years prior and before two major knee injuries?

That is what he was signed by Chicago to do...crazy theory for some guy on the internet 25 years later but a championship winning NBA team signed him with exactly that production in mind, which he had achieved his entire career up until then.


This is quite interesting, it kind of puts in perspective being a 50 win team can be misleading. I also think those 2008 Hawks and Cavaliers put up a better fight against Championship Celtics in 7 games than those Lakers did days later.

People ignore the years where tanking inflates win totals for all the good teams.


Krause knew Harpers knees were shot. You can look all of this up on wikipedia

There is nothing of that sort on Wikipedia. Look at articles at the time. There was some speculation he was brought in to be the #1 option if Pippen was traded. That isn't a player people are expecting to be 8/3/3.


Meanwhile, the Bulls are happy. "We are delighted to get a solid defensive player and proven scorer," Bulls General Manager Jerry Krause told The Associated Press.

https://www.nytimes.com/1994/09/18/sports/pro-basketball-harper-slips-past-knicks-to-join-bulls.html


Bosh and Love aren't comparable. When Lebron missed games Bosh became good again, even when the team sans Lebron was pretty good. He had the skills just missed the usage.

What were his efficiency numbers? He went from 52% to 46% when LeBron left in 15'. Scoring will go up as usage does but efficiency is the question.

The question with Bosh, like with Love, is what type of numbers would he put on a contender? The only examples we have of Bosh, like Love, being on a good team are the years he played with LeBron so we are left to speculate since those teams went down the tubes after LeBron left.

[warriorfan]

It is crazy.



That is what he was signed by Chicago to do...crazy theory for some guy on the internet 25 years later but a championship winning NBA team signed him with exactly that production in mind, which he had achieved his entire career up until then.



People ignore the years where tanking inflates win totals for all the good teams.



There is nothing of that sort on Wikipedia. Look at articles at the time. There was some speculation he was brought in to be the #1 option if Pippen was traded. That isn't a player people are expecting to be 8/3/3.



https://www.nytimes.com/1994/09/18/sports/pro-basketball-harper-slips-past-knicks-to-join-bulls.html



What were his efficiency numbers? He went from 52% to 46% when LeBron left in 15'. Scoring will go up as usage does but efficiency is the question.

The question with Bosh, like with Love, is what type of numbers would he put on a contender? The only examples we have of Bosh, like Love, being on a good team are the years he played with LeBron so we are left to speculate since those teams went down the tubes after LeBron left.

Arnt you a guy who bitches about wade being supposedly washed up? You think it’s ok to expect similar production from Harper 6 years later and after two catastrophic knee injuries, yet will turn around and say Wade wasn’t good enough anymore only after 4 seasons after putting up the 2nd highest PER in the league? Your trolling is both weak and inconsistent.

[Turbo Slayer]

Arnt you a guy who bitches about wade being supposedly washed up? You think it’s ok to expect similar production from Harper 6 years later and after two catastrophic knee injuries, yet will turn around and say Wade wasn’t good enough anymore only after 4 seasons after putting up the 2nd highest PER in the league? Your trolling is both weak and inconsistent.

Youre back!?!!? :facepalm

[Roundball_Rock]

Arnt you a guy who bitches about wade being supposedly washed up?

Nope. :lol


yet will turn around and say Wade wasn’t good enough anymore only after 4 seasons after putting up the 2nd highest PER in the league?

Which I have never said. Your dishonesty is even worse than your trolling.

[HoopsNY]

Bosh's numbers decreased due to a decreased role, not because he was finished like Harper was with Chicago. 2010-11 Bosh was a 19/8 player and shot the ball well, all in a reduced role. The next season he had similar numbers. Not to mention, he took that Raptors team to the playoffs twice before going to Miami. I think Bosh was a great player, but two things happened.

1. He went to a super-team and had a reduced role.
2. His health deteriorated which declined just about everything.

[Whoah10115]

So then Bosh deserves no credit for the stats he put up while he failed to even make the playoffs most of the time he was playing in that same "weakest conference in history". And Love's teams weren't even CLOSE to making the playoffs, even in the East, for 5 of his 6 seasons in Minny. The one season he would've made the playoffs he would've still been the 8 seed


To be fair to Kevin Love, playing in the Western Conference made it much more difficult. That Timberwolves team wins 50 games in the East. Yes.

And maybe more, and I'll tell you why. You can actually use this as a criticism of Love -I do- but he pretty much checked out over the last quarter of the season. In fact, they went 7 and 15 in his last 22 games (plus losing to sub-500 Orlando with him out). That included losses to the Knicks, Utah, Sacramento and twice to the Suns, all of them sub-500. During that stretch they beat the Spurs by 19 and the Grizzlies by 14, and while both were at home they also lost to the Bulls by 15 at home, and they lost to Charlotte by 12. If they win 5 more of the games he played that means they win 45 games and are in the playoffs, easily. You can say that's proof of him not being that good, but in the context of their first half, the good teams they beat down that stretch, and within the season as a whole? I remember his attitude around then. He didn't wanna be there anymore.

That was the season for him to be what he said he was. Had he not checked out they should have been pushing to win 50 with a stretch that was the opposite of the one they had. All I'm saying is that if we're talking pure quality, he had it.

[97 bulls]

Harpers PPG dropped because he couldn't pick up the triangle.

Here is a link to Phil Jacksons book Mindgames in which it states that Harper had a hard time with the offense. The fact is the Bulls had 4 guys that were capable of giving you 20 at in Jordan, Kukoc, Pippen, and Harper.

https://books.google.com/books?id=rH7VS6O2A_4C&pg=PT351&lpg=PT351&dq=ron+Harper+struggle+in+new+offense&source=bl&ots=sjqSZYc08y&sig=ACfU3U1FI6ZPk0psqsi9uYaOVxE4nRFfbg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi7iuLUwZDpAhVpGTQIHTBpAjgQ6AEwBXoECAcQA Q#v=onepage&q=ron%20Harper%20struggle%20in%20new%20offense&f=false

[RRR3]

Bosh and Love aren't comparable. When Lebron missed games Bosh became good again, even when the team sans Lebron was pretty good. He had the skills just missed the usage.
The same happened when Wade was out. He averaged like 25 PPG in 2012 when Wade was out IIRC, and LeBron played the majority of those games.

[guy]

Harpers PPG dropped because he couldn't pick up the triangle.

Here is a link to Phil Jacksons book Mindgames in which it states that Harper had a hard time with the offense. The fact is the Bulls had 4 guys that were capable of giving you 20 at in Jordan, Kukoc, Pippen, and Harper.

https://books.google.com/books?id=rH7VS6O2A_4C&pg=PT351&lpg=PT351&dq=ron+Harper+struggle+in+new+offense&source=bl&ots=sjqSZYc08y&sig=ACfU3U1FI6ZPk0psqsi9uYaOVxE4nRFfbg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi7iuLUwZDpAhVpGTQIHTBpAjgQ6AEwBXoECAcQA Q#v=onepage&q=ron%20Harper%20struggle%20in%20new%20offense&f=false

The same link Phil mentions he declined due to knee injuries.

[And1AllDay]

In the year before Kevin Love joined LeBron he put up 26.1/12.5/4.4/59% TS. The only other players to ever achieve this is prime Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Giannis.

https://i.postimg.cc/J7gW6ZCd/4162-AD91-CEA8-492-D-B988-BB7-A041-BC878.png

Sources:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=26.1&c2stat=trb_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=12.5&c3stat=ast_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=4.4&c4stat=ts_pct&c4comp=gt&c4val=.591&order_by=age
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html


:oldlol:

2020 Giannis = 67 wins (pace)
1972 Kareem = 63 wins
2014 Love = 40 wins

what were you trying to prove baby boi? That Love has empty stats his whole career?

[97 bulls]

The same link Phil mentions he declined due to knee injuries.

Right when compared to his Cavs days. He was still a 20 ppg scorer with the Clippers. The question was why did his production drop? The answer is he didnt plat much because he did pick the offense up right away. He could still score 20 a game. But not under that offense.

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol:

2020 Giannis = 67 wins (pace)
1972 Kareem = 63 wins
2014 Love = 40 wins

One of these things is not like the other. It is revealing that Love became the #3 option as soon as he went to a contender. If he was the superstar people thought he was, and his stats suggested he was, he easily would have been ahead of Irving. He was more accomplished, in his prime (Irving was still in his early 20's), and in theory could form an inside-out combo with LeBron. Instead Love become a max salary floor spacer.

[guy]

Right when compared to his Cavs days. He was still a 20 ppg scorer with the Clippers. The question was why did his production drop? The answer is he didnt plat much because he did pick the offense up right away. He could still score 20 a game. But not under that offense.

It says “since his Cleveland days” which implies he had multiple injuries since that point, which I believe he did. I’m sure the triangle had an impact but you don’t just go from 20 ppg to 8 ppg because of the triangle especially when they really could’ve used his scoring.

And he was a scorer that depended a lot on his athleticism. He wasn’t super skilled relatively speaking. And just watching him it was clear he lost a lot of that, probably cause his knees got progressively worse. So I highly doubt he could’ve still scored 20 a game.

[97 bulls]

It says “since his Cleveland days” which implies he had multiple injuries since that point, which I believe he did. I’m sure the triangle had an impact but you don’t just go from 20 ppg to 8 ppg because of the triangle especially when they really could’ve used his scoring.

And he was a scorer that depended a lot on his athleticism. He wasn’t super skilled relatively speaking. And just watching him it was clear he lost a lot of that, probably cause his knees got progressively worse. So I highly doubt he could’ve still scored 20 a game.

Bro. He didnt play much. You guys need to stop depending so much on stats. It doesnt matter how good you are if you dont know the offense. I live in LA. I remember Harper as a Clipper. He still had a good amount of athleticism. Go watch some of Harpers highlights as a Bulls. He was at least as good as he was as a Clipper. Theres no way hed be able to play defense at a high level with shot knees.

[And1AllDay]

It says “since his Cleveland days” which implies he had multiple injuries since that point, which I believe he did. I’m sure the triangle had an impact but you don’t just go from 20 ppg to 8 ppg because of the triangle especially when they really could’ve used his scoring.

And he was a scorer that depended a lot on his athleticism. He wasn’t super skilled relatively speaking. And just watching him it was clear he lost a lot of that, probably cause his knees got progressively worse. So I highly doubt he could’ve still scored 20 a game.

the correct answer is mike reduced them on offense.

1st year pippen escapes mike he is #2 in mvp voting and all nba 1st team with 55 wins and a near ecf apperance are you high? :oldlol:

[Smoke117]

the correct answer is mike reduced them on offense.

1st year pippen escapes mike he is #2 in mvp voting and all nba 1st team with 55 wins and a near ecf apperance are you high? :oldlol:

Harper wasn’t doing anything before Jordan came back, dipshit.

[Axe]

Bro. He didnt play much. You guys need to stop depending so much on stats. It doesnt matter how good you are if you dont know the offense. I live in LA. I remember Harper as a Clipper. He still had a good amount of athleticism. Go watch some of Harpers highlights as a Bulls. He was at least as good as he was as a Clipper. Theres no way hed be able to play defense at a high level with shot knees.
The same harper who also played for the lakers later in his career.

[Smoke117]

Right when compared to his Cavs days. He was still a 20 ppg scorer with the Clippers. The question was why did his production drop? The answer is he didnt plat much because he did pick the offense up right away. He could still score 20 a game. But not under that offense.

He was a 20ppg on 18 shots guy on a 27 win team. He was finished being anything close to a 20ppg guy on an actual good team.

[guy]

Bro. He didnt play much. You guys need to stop depending so much on stats. It doesnt matter how good you are if you dont know the offense. I live in LA. I remember Harper as a Clipper. He still had a good amount of athleticism. Go watch some of Harpers highlights as a Bulls. He was at least as good as he was as a Clipper. Theres no way hed be able to play defense at a high level with shot knees.

Im not depending on stats. I watched him for 4 straight years. He wasn’t an explosive player with a ton of athleticism like he was earlier in his career. I don’t know how anyone could’ve watched him those years and say he was capable of averaging 20 ppg. For those 4 years he had 8 20 point games game TOTAL. Not just in 1 season. So he averaged 2 per season. It doesn’t matter if the triangle limited him. A 20 ppg player is not limited to that degree.

[97 bulls]

Im not depending on stats. I watched him for 4 straight years. He wasn’t an explosive player with a ton of athleticism like he was earlier in his career. I don’t know how anyone could’ve watched him those years and say he was capable of averaging 20 ppg. For those 4 years he had 8 20 point games game TOTAL. Not just in 1 season. So he averaged 2 per season. It doesn’t matter if the triangle limited him. A 20 ppg player is not limited to that degree.

He didnt play as much in 95 Guy. He went from 38 min to 19 Min. Because he couldn't pick up the offense. It plainly stated that in the book.

"The problem was, Harper struggled most of the 1994-95 season to get the hang of the complicated triple post offense."

It says it right there.