How many rings does MJ win if you replace Pippen with Kyrie?

[Mamba4Life]

From 1988-1998

I say somewhere between 0 and 1

[Manny98]

0

Bulls fall off a cliff defensively without Pippen and MJ & Kyrie don't fit together offensively

[Overdrive]

As many as Lebron and Magic. Fit is a thing.

[Manny98]

As many as Lebron and Magic. Fit is a thing.

MJ doesn't have the playmaking ability and leadership to bring out the best in Kyrie

I can just imagine those two having fist fights on who's going to take the last shot :oldlol:

[FultzNationRISE]

As many as Lebron and Magic. Fit is a thing.


:biggums:

People who share the ball fit together well.

Chuckers dont.


MJ was much more well rounded than Kyrie, obviously.

But comparing those two with a duo of Lebron and Magic!?

Please.

[Docs Orders]

BJ Armstrong basically was a Kyrie tier player and all-star back then. Not as good as Kyrie in no way but a top 30 player 90's player nonetheless

[dbugz]

10 atleast

LeBron can only make one and needed a kyrie dagger to win.

[FultzNationRISE]

10 atleast

LeBron can only make one and needed a kyrie dagger to win.



Bro how bout I kick your ****ing ass??

[dbugz]

Bro how bout I kick your ****ing ass??

you have this dude basketball IQ, just like all LeQuit fans

https://dev.big3.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/KILLER3S_HOLLINS_RYAN.png

[tpols]

How many does he win with kyrie, wade, bosh, love, and anthony davis?


:roll:

[juju151111]

6 or 7. I don't see Kyrie playing like ass in game 6 in 89 and game 7 90
. Mj should of had 7 rings if Grant and Pippen didn't combine for 4/27 in 90 game 7.

[defyinside]

Kyrie doesn't need any playmaker to shine.
He just needs another alpha scorer to shine.
Last shot in close game will be a huge issue :D

[Soundwave]

BJ Armstrong basically was a Kyrie tier player and all-star back then. Not as good as Kyrie in no way but a top 30 player 90's player nonetheless

Errrr wtf, BJ Armstrong's five best seasons come out to under 12 ppg (and that's ignoring lower scoring years). On no planet is that a top 30 player in any decade.

[Axe]

How many does he win with kyrie, wade, bosh, love, and anthony davis?


:roll:
Interesting question. But don't forget about james jones, since the nikka was included in all of his three championship teams. 😂

[AirBonner]

How many does he win with kyrie, wade, bosh, love, and anthony davis?


:roll:
Talent wise that is about the same as MJ bulls

[Roundball_Rock]

Other than LeBron, what all-star or all-star caliber player has Kyrie been able to coexist with? MJ and Kyrie would have to share one ball, right?

[Mamba4Life]

As many as Lebron and Magic. Fit is a thing.

So give LeBron a player who's better than Wade in every aspect of basketball?

LeBron went 2/3 with a Wade (not including a busted up Wade in 2014), he'd go 9/10 with Magic

[Axe]

So give LeBron a player who's better than Wade in every aspect of basketball?

LeBron went 2/3 with a Wade (not including a busted up Wade in 2014), he'd go 9/10 with Magic
So what the hell are you trying to prove here? That he'd win more chips or titles if he played alongside some former fmvps?

[Axe]

MJ doesn't have the playmaking ability and leadership to bring out the best in Kyrie

I can just imagine those two having fist fights on who's going to take the last shot :oldlol:
That means kd can't win any chips with kyrie either, you buffoon. :confusedshrug:

[LostCause]

That means kd can't win any chips with kyrie either, you buffoon. :confusedshrug:

You don’t truly believe Manny’s a Nets fan do you?

That’s just a front so he’s not immediately dismissed as a Bron troll

[SouBeachTalents]

6 or 7. I don't see Kyrie playing like ass in game 6 in 89 and game 7 90
. Mj should of had 7 rings if Grant and Pippen didn't combine for 4/27 in 90 game 7.
I agree, Kyrie doesn't play like ass those games because he's probably not playing at all. 6 rings? Even if you think they'd mesh well together, Kyrie literally can't even stay on the floor. Just in the past 6 seasons, Kyrie's missed nearly an entire Finals, an entire playoff run, and had the Nets managed to make it this year, another entire playoff run.

[RRR3]

I agree, Kyrie doesn't play like ass those games because he's probably not playing at all. 6 rings? Even if you think they'd mesh well together, Kyrie literally can't even stay on the floor. Just in the past 6 seasons, Kyrie's missed nearly an entire Finals, an entire playoff run, and had the Nets managed to make it this year, another entire playoff run.
Jordan stans are delusional lol.

[Axe]

You don’t truly believe Manny’s a Nets fan do you?

That’s just a front so he’s not immediately dismissed as a Bron troll
Either way. That's why i said he's a buffoon in the first place, specifically one who's a ditzy idiot.

[Roundball_Rock]

6 or 7. I don't see Kyrie playing like ass in game 6 in 89

Pippen played 1 minute before getting concussed and leaving the game. What did he do in that 1 minute that tanked his team? :lol

[RRR3]

Pippen played 1 minute before getting concussed and leaving the game. What did he do in that 1 minute that tanked his team? :lol
If he was an alpha like MJ he woulda stayed in the game. Jordan stan logic.

[Axe]

Jordan stans are delusional lol.
Tbh, all stans typically are whenever they get too overzealous about their idols in life. It doesn't take a goddamn rocket scientist to figure this out.

[andgar923]

From 1988-1998

I say somewhere between 0 and 1

Of course not, this is silly.

[Roundball_Rock]

If he was an alpha like MJ he woulda stayed in the game. Jordan stan logic.

:roll: true.

It is interesting they blame Pippen for losing that game. I thought MJ didn't need any help to win? It was Game 6, a chance to take it to 7. Did MJ "will his team" to victory?

[Smoke117]

Kyrie is a great finisher around the rim, but this is an era where you can't touch anyone. It'd be interesting to see how he would fare being hammered over and over against the Pistons and Knicks and having to deal with more physical contact in general. The league right now is built to allow small guards to succeed. That wasn't the case in the 90s. Either way, I can't see them winning more than maybe 2 as you just lose too much overall replacing Pippen with him. If his shot is off he's basically useless as he doesn't do anything else out there at an impact level. Pippen was always having a big impact out there whether he was scoring or not. The fact that Kyrie is always hurt and a complete headcase doesn't help either.

[Lebron23]

Pippen is better than Kyrie. In this era Scottie would be like Kawhi without the load management.

[OldSchoolBBall]

People are crazy if they think he still doesn't win at least 3 titles. Period. Depending on the rest of the roster, possibly more. Actually, assuming the keep the rest of the roster as-is, I'd say they get at least 4-5.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kyrie's teams consistently do better without him yet a team is going to win 4-5 rings with him?

This guy is dazzling but when the offense operates better with Dinwiddie at the controls that speaks volumes.

[Axe]

Kyrie's teams consistently do better without him yet a team is going to win 4-5 rings with him?

This guy is dazzling but when the offense operates better with Dinwiddie at the controls that speaks volumes.
Manny thinks so lmao

[97 bulls]

People are crazy if they think he still doesn't win at least 3 titles. Period. Depending on the rest of the roster, possibly more. Actually, assuming the keep the rest of the roster as-is, I'd say they get at least 4-5.

Oh wow. All the OGs are coming back.

[andgar923]

Kyrie would've def helped MJ out offensively and he could've been a better defender under MJ.

But Pip gave MJ defensive help that Kyrie simply wouldn't have allowed. MJ could've only done so much defensively even if he had more energy to spend on defense. But give him most athletic SF from that era and he has a high chance in turning that player into another Pip.

[Smoke117]

Kyrie would've def helped MJ out offensively and he could've been a better defender under MJ.

But Pip gave MJ defensive help that Kyrie simply wouldn't have allowed. MJ could've only done so much defensively even if he had more energy to spend on defense. But give him most athletic SF from that era and he has a high chance in turning that player into another Pip.

Jordan could just make any athletic SF into a scottie Pippen, huh? You're so full of shit. This is why everybody finds you Jordan stans so insufferable...idiotic trash like this.

[Mamba4Life]

Kyrie would've def helped MJ out offensively and he could've been a better defender under MJ.

But Pip gave MJ defensive help that Kyrie simply wouldn't have allowed. MJ could've only done so much defensively even if he had more energy to spend on defense. But give him most athletic SF from that era and he has a high chance in turning that player into another Pip.

Pippen could've turned any 20ppg scorer in that era into Jordan. Heck, give him John Starks for an offseason and him and Pip go 6/6 as well

[aceman]

People are crazy if they think he still doesn't win at least 3 titles. Period. Depending on the rest of the roster, possibly more. Actually, assuming the keep the rest of the roster as-is, I'd say they get at least 4-5.

MJ would need to work harder on defense. Kyrie doesn't score more than Pippen cause mj will dominate offense anyway. Team much weaker

[86Celtics]

Kyrie would've def helped MJ out offensively and he could've been a better defender under MJ.

But Pip gave MJ defensive help that Kyrie simply wouldn't have allowed. MJ could've only done so much defensively even if he had more energy to spend on defense. But give him most athletic SF from that era and he has a high chance in turning that player into another Pip.

Such an idiotic thing to post. As if players like Pippen grow on trees and it takes someone with Jordan's mentality to grow them into a top player.

James's fanboys are unbearable with their constant trolling but some of Jordan's fans are just as insufferable.

[Mr Feeny]

So give LeBron a player who's better than Wade in every aspect of basketball?

LeBron went 2/3 with a Wade (not including a busted up Wade in 2014), he'd go 9/10 with Magic

Pat Riley believes that "Magic can't come close to what (Wade) does offensively".

And not surprised to see you confused by his point. If you give Lebron Magic, he wouldn't have the spacing he needs and would reduce Magic into a role player because there is only 1 ball and Magic needs it to play his game. Fit is an issue.

[Mr Feeny]

:roll: true.

It is interesting they blame Pippen for losing that game. I thought MJ didn't need any help to win? It was Game 6, a chance to take it to 7. Did MJ "will his team" to victory?

He certainly doesn't need anyone to carry him to a title while he averages 10 ppg and 4 points in a game 7, unlike Kareem.

Lebron, similarly, doesn't need someone to drag him to a title while he contributed absolutely nothing during the finals series.

That would be Kareem.

[Overdrive]

So give LeBron a player who's better than Wade in every aspect of basketball?

LeBron went 2/3 with a Wade (not including a busted up Wade in 2014), he'd go 9/10 with Magic

No he would not. They're even more redundant than Bron/Wade were. You can atleast take the ball out of Wade's hands and he'd still produce. Magic or Lebron, not so much.7
One guy would get marginalized. Of course Magic is on a way higher level than Kyrie. But Kyrie's hard to gauge. He had the ideal situation next to Lebron. Solo he's at a Ben Simmons level maybe a tad above it for Lebron type players. How many rings would Lebron win if you exchange Wade or Kyrie with Simmons?

[ImKobe]

Still wins 6, if Kyrie's healthy. Bulls get worse defensively but Kyrie could carry a bigger scoring load and Jordan was capable of being more of a facilitator and Irving is just as good of a passer as Pippen, but a much better shooter.


People are crazy if they think he still doesn't win at least 3 titles. Period. Depending on the rest of the roster, possibly more. Actually, assuming the keep the rest of the roster as-is, I'd say they get at least 4-5.

Yup. 96-98 is still a lock because Rodman makes up for Irving's shortcomings on defense, plays a bigger role on that end. The Bulls were able to win 55 games without Jordan and were #1 in the East without Pippen in the first 35 games in '98 and closed the Finals out with him injured. Irving is multiple tiers above Pippen offensively.

[Smoke117]

Still wins 6, if Kyrie's healthy. Bulls get worse defensively but Kyrie could carry a bigger scoring load and Jordan was capable of being more of a facilitator and Irving is just as good of a passer as Pippen, but a much better shooter.



Yup. 96-98 is still a lock because Rodman makes up for Irving's shortcomings on defense, plays a bigger role on that end. The Bulls were able to win 55 games without Jordan and were #1 in the East without Pippen in the first 35 games in '98 and closed the Finals out with him injured. Irving is multiple tiers above Pippen offensively.

Not really. Whether he was scoring or not, Pippen actually made the game easier for his teammates and made them better. Kyrie doesn't have that ability whatsoever. Everything he does offensively is on an individual level. There is also, as I said before, the fact that he plays in a very soft era right now that caters to small guards. The 90s wasn't like that at all and and he'd have to deal with hand checking and getting hammered at the rim.

[aceman]

Still wins 6, if Kyrie's healthy. Bulls get worse defensively but Kyrie could carry a bigger scoring load and Jordan was capable of being more of a facilitator and Irving is just as good of a passer as Pippen, but a much better shooter.



Yup. 96-98 is still a lock because Rodman makes up for Irving's shortcomings on defense, plays a bigger role on that end. The Bulls were able to win 55 games without Jordan and were #1 in the East without Pippen in the first 35 games in '98 and closed the Finals out with him injured. Irving is multiple tiers above Pippen offensively.

Jordan will do bulk of scoring regardless if teammates are Kyrie or Pippen or Kukoc. Defense & playmaking more important

[Soundwave]

Not really. Whether he was scoring or not, Pippen actually made the game easier for his teammates and made them better. Kyrie doesn't have that ability whatsoever. Everything he does offensively is on an individual level. There is also, as I said before, the fact that he plays in a very soft era right now that caters to small guards. The 90s wasn't like that at all and and he'd have to deal with hand checking and getting hammered at the rim.

Allen Iverson is a good deal smaller and slighter than Kyrie and was able to score in the 90s without much of a problem. Kyrie would be just fine.

Stephon Marbury as well. Ditto for a Tim Hardaway. Isiah Thomas obviously. Kyrie's a baller he would do well in any era.

[Smoke117]

Allen Iverson is a good deal smaller and slighter than Kyrie and was able to score in the 90s without much of a problem. Kyrie would be just fine.

Stephon Marbury as well. Kyrie's a baller he would do well in any era.


Iverson's efficiency was awful so that's not exactly saying a whole lot. When the rules changed in the mid 2000s he saw a big up-shoot in efficiency which goes to my point about the game being catered to small guards now. He was also a lot sturdier than Kyrie is.

[Soundwave]

Iverson's efficiency was awful so that's not exactly saying a whole lot. When the rules changed in the mid 2000s he saw a big up-shoot in efficiency which goes to my point about the game being catered to small guards now. He's also a lot sturdier than Kyrie is.

Iverson was like 20 pounds lighter than Kyrie, no way is he sturdier.

John Starks was able to hit 19 ppg in the midst of the 90s, BJ Armstrong 14 ppg one year, Terry Porter 18 ppg for multiple seasons, Joe Dumars multiple 20 ppg seasons, Tim Hardaway multi 20 ppg+ seasons, Mark Price had multiple 18+ ppg seasons, Marbury was up 20 ppg in the late 90s, Damon Stoudamire was putting up 19-20 ppg in his first 3 seasons, Rod Strickland, Kenny Anderson, etc. etc. ... Kyrie Irving would score more than those guys.

The whole "player X couldn't possibly play in era XYZ" is really overblown especially if you're talking about players post ABA merger. If you can play, you can play, there's not some era where you're going to be totally lost.

[Smoke117]

Iverson was like 20 pounds lighter than Kyrie, no way is he sturdier.

John Starks was able to hit 19 ppg in the midst of the 90s, BJ Armstrong 14 ppg one year, Terry Porter 18 ppg for multiple seasons, Joe Dumars multiple 20 ppg seasons, Tim Hardaway multi 20 ppg+ seasons, Mark Price had multiple 18+ ppg seasons, Marbury was up 20 ppg in the late 90s, Damon Stoudamire was putting up 19-20 ppg in his first 3 seasons ... Kyrie Irving would score more than those guys.

The whole "player X couldn't possibly play in era XYZ" is really overblown especially if you're talking about players post ABA merger. If you can play, you can play, there's not some era where you're going to be totally lost.

We all know perimeter stars in the 90s, including Pippen, would be scoring more in this era and on better efficiency. I'm not saying Kyrie would be totally inept or anything, but I'm sure his efficiency would take a dip and he wouldn't be quite as good as he is under these rules. Either way, I think replacing Pippen with Kyrie is a huge downgrade. You are just losing too much for more scoring and basically nothing else. Kyrie has no impact on the game besides individual scoring. Pippen goes out there and does everything while being an all world defensive player and a guy who just makes players around him better. Everyone can go on and on about the scoring, but the Bulls just played better offensively with Pippen on the floor whether he was doing any actual scoring or not. Kyrie doesn't have the ability to raise the play of his teammates.

[Soundwave]

We all know perimeter stars in the 90s, including Pippen, would be scoring more in this era and on better efficiency. I'm not saying Kyrie would be totally inept or anything, but I'm sure his efficiency would take a dip and he wouldn't be quite as good as he is under these rules.

I doubt it. He'd score right around the same clip. Guys like Stephon Marbury and Damon Stoudamire are not as good as Kyrie offensively and they were able to step into the 90s and play fine.

He'd get his 22-24 ppg.

1 on 1 he's just too good of a player.

Kevin Johnson is another similar type of player, multiple 20+ ppg seasons but Kyrie is better than him.

[Smoke117]

I doubt it. He'd score right around the same clip. Guys like Stephon Marbury and Damon Stoudamire are not as good as Kyrie offensively and they were able to step into the 90s and play fine.

He'd get his 22-24 ppg.

1 on 1 he's just too good of a player.

Kevin Johnson is another similar type of player, multiple 20+ ppg seasons but Kyrie is better than him.

You keep bringing up guys whose efficiency was crap, so I don't know what you are proving. Marbury and Stoudamire had to chuck up a lot of shots to get their points. Also, Kyrie Irving is NOT better than Kevin Johnson. When he was healthy and in his prime he was a great player. I'd take him any day over Kyrie.

[Phoenix]

Iverson was like 20 pounds lighter than Kyrie, no way is he sturdier.

John Starks was able to hit 19 ppg in the midst of the 90s, BJ Armstrong 14 ppg one year, Terry Porter 18 ppg for multiple seasons, Joe Dumars multiple 20 ppg seasons, Tim Hardaway multi 20 ppg+ seasons, Mark Price had multiple 18+ ppg seasons, Marbury was up 20 ppg in the late 90s, Damon Stoudamire was putting up 19-20 ppg in his first 3 seasons, Rod Strickland, Kenny Anderson, etc. etc. ... Kyrie Irving would score more than those guys.

The whole "player X couldn't possibly play in era XYZ" is really overblown especially if you're talking about players post ABA merger. If you can play, you can play, there's not some era where you're going to be totally lost.

Iverson was easily a tougher player, better at taking contact. If he had come out in 2005 instead of 1996 he would still be doing his 30ppg but on better percentages. 31 year old AI in 2005 was like 33ppg on 45%, both the highest ppg and efficiency of his career at the end of his prime for a player who was primarily a speed based talent. Kyrie in 1995 will give you his 22-25 ppg but not at a 47% clip.

[Soundwave]

Iverson was easily a tougher player, better at taking contact. If he had come out in 2005 instead of 1996 he would still be doing his 30ppg but on better percentages. 31 year old AI in 2005 was like 33ppg on 45%, both the highest ppg and efficiency of his career at the end of his prime for a player who was primarily a speed based talent. Kyrie in 1995 will give you his 22-25 ppg but not at a 47% clip.

Kevin Johnson shot at a 47-49% clip in the 90s, I'm not really sure why it's ironclad that Kyrie Irving couldn't do that. He'd still have the benefit that you can't really double on Kyrie because of you-know-who.

[Phoenix]

Kevin Johnson shot at a 47-49% clip in the 90s, I'm not really sure why it's ironclad that Kyrie Irving couldn't do that. He'd still have the benefit that you can't really double on Kyrie because of you-know-who.

Yes he did but not at the same scoring clip especially once Barkley came onboard. There's more examples of smaller guards not hitting those kind of percentages, especially on any sort of volume( for the sake of this discussion let's say 22ppg up) than ones that did. Speculative either way where he lands. He's playing in an era designed for players like him to showcase his iso skills.

[Soundwave]

Yes he did but not at the same scoring clip especially once Barkley came onboard. There's more examples of smaller guards not hitting those kind of percentages, especially on any sort of volume( for the sake of this discussion let's say 22ppg up) than ones that did. Speculative either way where he lands. He's playing in an era designed for players like him to showcase his iso skills.

He plays in a post-Jordan world where every player in every position now basically wants to be a scorer/slasher.

The difference in the 90s was really that if you were say a PG, you would be expected to distribute the ball. If you were a big, you posted and kept your ass down low. And you didn't question that really.

After Jordan everyone wanted to play as a shooting guard mixed with whatever position they were. So Kyrie is a product of that evolution, but that doesn't really mean he wouldn't be able to score in the 90s.

Jordan would get his 32 ppg, but someone needs to score at least 20 ppg on that Bulls team for them to get to 100-105 ppg and Rodman sure as f*ck wasn't going to do it, lol.

[Phoenix]

He plays in a post-Jordan world where every player in every position now basically wants to be a scorer/slasher.

The difference in the 90s was really that if you were say a PG, you would be expected to distribute the ball. If you were a big, you posted and kept your ass down low. And you didn't question that really.

After Jordan everyone wanted to play as a shooting guard mixed with whatever position they were. So Kyrie is a product of that evolution, but that doesn't really mean he wouldn't be able to score in the 90s.

Jordan would get his 32 ppg, but someone needs to score at least 20 ppg on that Bulls team for them to get to 100-105 ppg and Rodman sure as f*ck wasn't going to do it, lol.

I was looking up some old KJ clips. I remember him having a crazy first step but he was great at finishing in traffic amongst the trees. Was also a more explosive player athletically than Kyrie. Could stick the 18 footer well enough to respect him and set up his drives to the basket.

I'm not saying Kyrie won't get buckets, but I can't say with any certainty that his games scales 1:1 in the 90s in terms of numbers. He's heralded as a great below the rim finisher( and he has some amazing and creative finishes) but the lanes and basket in the 90s aren't nearly as inviting to attack as today. To me he'd be something like 94 Kenny Andersen with a better shot. Maybe he's 91 KJ but I dont think he's quite the athlete and may not score in the paint as well. Would shoot better obviously. I actually think KJ was better relatively speaking when healthy. Kyrie is specially gifted but I don't think he has the intangibles to impact the W/L column that much. He's your iso bucket getter when the team can't get any offense going.

[Manny98]

lol Kyrie is one of the best ever at finishing under the rim, he'd dominate any era because of his pure skill

Stockton is the only 90s point guard that's better than current Kyrie

[Axe]

How many times has irving led the cavaliers alone to playoff contention again? 😂

[Phoenix]

lol Kyrie is one of the best ever at finishing under the rim, he'd dominate any era because of his pure skill



He doesn't dominate the era he's in, though. He's a borderline top 15 player. Dominating your era would basically mean hes among the top 2-3 players and the driving force on championship contenders year in/out. Which, he isn't.

[SATAN]

Why is anyone even replying to this? It's the dumbest non argument ever.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan could just make any athletic SF into a scottie Pippen, huh? You're so full of shit. This is why everybody finds you Jordan stans so insufferable...idiotic trash like this.

They do the same thing in every Pippen thread. :lol


Whether he was scoring or not, Pippen actually made the game easier for his teammates and made them better. Kyrie doesn't have that ability whatsoever.

He has the opposite ability. Whereas Pippen made his teammates better, Irving consistently makes them worse. It is damning that Kyrie is most valuable to his teams when wearing a suit. All these people talking about Kyrie leading to all these chips must not watch basketball. Just look at the splits for his teammates when he is in or out and the teams' W-L record in either scenario. The best move Boston made was simply to ship him out. Magically Tatum and the others improved.


The Bulls were able to win 55 games without Jordan and were #1 in the East without Pippen in the first 35 games in '98 and closed the Finals out with him injured

Yes, after Pippen led them to a 3-1 series lead thanks to his defensive domination...

The Bulls were #1 when Pippen returned but their win pace would have (if continued) caused them to ultimately be surpassed by Indiana and finish as the #2 seed and lose home court for the ECF. Plus, as the MJ doc showed, they were playing harder (especially Rodman, the second best player with Pippen out) knowing they had a short window before Pippen returned and they could weather the storm by everyone stepping up more. They would not have sustained that level of effort over 82 games.

[Mr Feeny]

Both Jordan and Lebron are better than Kareem. Get over it.

[Mamba4Life]

Why is anyone even replying to this? It's the dumbest non argument ever.

Why are you so upset?

[And1AllDay]

Wake up call, mike doesnt play defense. he needs pip and rodman.

mike wins 0 rings without pippen.

[97 bulls]

I dont even believe the two could play together for more than a season or two. Maybe 1. Kyrie needs the ball to really impact a game. That ain't happening with MJ.

[86Celtics]

Yes, after Pippen led them to a 3-1 series lead thanks to his defensive domination...


Pippen led them to a 3-1 lead? Really? For someone who is constantly complaining about MJ "stans" you are not much better yourself.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen led them to a 3-1 lead? Really?

He was the front-runner for the FMVP at that point.

[Roundball_Rock]

Sam Smith
Chicago Tribune

But with the Bulls now ahead three games to one in the NBA Finals after Wednesday's 86-82 victory over the Utah Jazz, mostly because of their defense, Scottie Pippen should be the finals' Most Valuable Player.


The Bulls are shooting only 42.4 percent in the series.

But they're shutting down the Jazz, frustrating its dependable offense largely because of Pippen, who had 28 points, nine rebounds and five assists Wednesday night.

"He was sensational," Jazz coach Jerry Sloan said. "He did a terrific job getting in the open court, pulling up and taking the three-point shot. We had a difficult time trying to guard him.

"Defensively, he puts tremendous pressure on you. You realize you have to be almost perfect in the halfcourt sets. We don't have guys to overpower you. We have to make the right play. He causes a lot of problems. We knew that from the beginning. We had trouble with him every time we played them. I don't know what to say."

One of a million examples but this is from the Bulls' hometown paper. https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1998-06-11-9806110397-story.html

A lot of context is lost over time so you hear MJ stans capitalizing by pointing out they won Game 6 with Pippen a decoy and supplying all the scoring, which is true--but forget how the Bulls staked out a 3-1 lead (or that MJ got offensive help in Game 5 with an ailing Pippen in the form of 30 points from Kukoc, which also is never mentioned).

No need to get insecure and activate an alt account if another player happened to be more impactful over a 4 game stretch (as if that was a regular occurrence).

[86Celtics]

One of a million examples but this is from the Bulls' hometown paper. https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1998-06-11-9806110397-story.html

A lot of context is lost over time so you hear MJ stans capitalizing by pointing out they won Game 6 with Pippen a decoy and supplying all the scoring, which is true--but forget how the Bulls staked out a 3-1 lead (or that MJ got offensive help in Game 5 with an ailing Pippen in the form of 30 points from Kukoc, which also is never mentioned).

No need to get insecure and activate an alt account if another player happened to be more impactful over a 4 game stretch (as if that was a regular occurrence).


Pippen never led the Bulls except from when Jordan took his sabbatical. He was always #2 to Jordan's #1. You can argue that he was great for as long as he played in the Finals but that doesn't make him the Bulls' leader. Not with Jordan around.

Now I shouldn't have to point out something that it's common knowledge but since you obviously have issues with Jordan it had to be said.

And that doesn't make me an alt, a stan or whatever.

[And1AllDay]

Pippen never led the Bulls except from when Jordan took his sabbatical. He was always #2 to Jordan's #1. You can argue that he was great for as long as he played in the Finals but that doesn't make him the Bulls' leader. Not with Jordan around.

Now I shouldn't have to point out something that it's common knowledge but since you obviously have issues with Jordan it had to be said.

And that doesn't make me an alt, a stan or whatever.

so its all about points 3 ball? :oldlol:

ez alt to spot

[3ball]

]

Whether he was scoring or not, Pippen actually made the game easier for his teammates and made them better. Kyrie doesn't have that ability whatsoever.



So now we're revising history and saying Pippen "raised" guys and made them better?

Pure lies

Pippen was the youngster getting raised himself

and he didn't command any defensive attention so he didn't make teammates better - the system made teammates better and MJ's ability to play in that system allowed the system to exist as the Bulls'offense

Those are the facts

[And1AllDay]

So now we're revising history and saying Pippen "raised" guys and made them better?

Pure lies

Pippen was the youngster getting raised himself

and he didn't command any defensive attention so he didn't make teammates better - the system made teammates better and MJ's ability to play in that system allowed the system to exist as the Bulls'offense

Those are the facts

type this on your 86 celtics account thanks

[Mamba4Life]

So now we're revising history and saying Pippen "raised" guys and made them better?

Pure lies

Pippen was the youngster getting raised himself

and he didn't command any defensive attention so he didn't make teammates better - the system made teammates better and MJ's ability to play in that system allowed the system to exist as the Bulls'offense

Those are the facts

Pippen peak ppg average: 22ppg in the 1994 season

Kyries peak ppg average: 24ppg in the 2018 season


So Pippen and Kyrie were equal scorers, expect Pippen was vastly better at rebounding, playmaking, and defense as well. So Kyrie is worth half of a Pippen, and LeBron beat a 73 win team with half a Pippen, while Jordan lost to the baby Magic with a Full Pippen in 1995 :O

yikes

[And1AllDay]

Pippen peak ppg average: 22ppg in the 1994 season

Kyries peak ppg average: 24ppg in the 2018 seaon


So Pippen and Kyrie were equal scorers, expect Pippen was vastly better at rebounding, playmaking, and defense as well. So Kyrie is worth half of a Pippen, and LeBron beat a 73 win team with half a Pippen, while Jordan lost to the baby Magic with a Full Pippen in 1995 :O

yikes

yikes

what the hell will 3balt say now

caught his ass again :oldlol:

[86Celtics]

type this on your 86 celtics account thanks

I'm not anyone's alt moron

[tpols]

Kyrie is a great finisher around the rim, but this is an era where you can't touch anyone. It'd be interesting to see how he would fare being hammered over and over against the Pistons and Knicks and having to deal with more physical contact in general. The league right now is built to allow small guards to succeed. That wasn't the case in the 90s. Either way, I can't see them winning more than maybe 2 as you just lose too much overall replacing Pippen with him. If his shot is off he's basically useless as he doesn't do anything else out there at an impact level. Pippen was always having a big impact out there whether he was scoring or not. The fact that Kyrie is always hurt and a complete headcase doesn't help either.

kyrie would be a kevin johnson type in the 90s.

which is still all NBA and capable of blowing up whenever.

you act like he isnt a great shooter lol... nobody in the 90s could shoot the 3 like kyrie, much less off the dribble and contested.

defenders sagged in that era at ranges kyrie would wet, we have the footage.

[Smoke117]

kyrie would be a kevin johnson type in the 90s.

which is still all NBA and capable of blowing up whenever.

you act like he isnt a great shooter lol... nobody in the 90s could shoot the 3 like kyrie, much less off the dribble and contested.

defenders sagged in that era at ranges kyrie would wet, we have the footage.

Kyrie isn't close to as good of a penetrator as Kevin Johnson was even with the soft no handchecking rules. It doesn't even matter. Offense was never an issue for the Bulls. They were 1st in the league for four of their championships, 2nd another, and 9th the final year in 98. They need what Pippen brings a lot more than they need a few more ppg Kyrie would have on Pippen.

[tpols]

and kevin johnson was never even remotely close to the shooting threat kyrie is.

thats why hes got a GOAT offensive package. can J you from anywhere, and has impeccable touch, footwork, and intuition finishing in the paint.

kyrie obviously wouldnt be better than pippen for the bulls, but they would still win with him. pippen has had some sorry ass series.

You only need to win 4/7 games. Kyrie may have his down ones, but in the playoffs has gone off more than not. They'd avalanche a lot of teams.

[Smoke117]

and kevin johnson was never the shooting threat kyrie is.

thats why hes got a GOAT offensive package. can J you from anywhere, and has impeccable touch, footwork, and intuition finishing in the paint.

kyrie obviously wouldnt be better than pippen for the bulls, but they would still win with him. pippen has had some sorry ass series.

You only need to win 4/7 games. Kyrie may have his down ones, but in the playoffs has gone off more than not. They'd avalanche a lot of teams.

There's two sides to the game. For all this talk of Pippen offensively in that 96 finals series for instance, he also led the series in drating for both teams. Let's say Kyrie went into a slump...that's it for him. He doesn't do anything else at any kind of impactful level to offshoot that. As I said before, if he isn't scoring he's useless. Pippen can slump, but still have a huge impact from his defense and how he just makes the game easier for his teammates. The offense just runs better when he's out there whether he is scoring points or not. A good example of that would be his last year on the Blazers. He had a team high +10.0 on/off and that makes perfect sense. Everytime he went off the court those knuckleheads would start to implode and lose the lead and then he'd come back in and settle the team down and get them back to playing the right way. He was always a great floor general.

[Roundball_Rock]

A good example of that would be his last year on the Blazers. He had a team high +10.0 on/off and that makes perfect sense. Everytime he went off the court those knuckleheads would start to implode and lose the lead and then he'd come back in and settle the team down and get them back to playing the right way. He was always a great floor general.

Yeah people don't understand Pippen's value (it is a shame we lack on/off data for his prime!). Portland, where he was past his prime, is a great example. He missed significant time in 02' and 03'. Portland was a top 5 team with him; they were barely top 20 without him. So people say he played on a stacked team but they sucked without him. Their performance minus him was consistent with what they did for a full season after he left (.500 and missed the playoffs).

For all the hype about 16', Kyrie was -0.3 on/off that year. His record in Boston and Brooklyn consistently shows teams that perform better without him. Why? The answer is pretty clear: all his teammates perform significantly better with Kyrie wearing a suit. How valuable is he? Forget Pippen. Is Kyrie even more valuable then Spencer Dinwiddie or Terry Rozier?


type this on your 86 celtics account thanks

He is trying to be slick. 86 Celtics has another alt in Ronin. Who is the "real" account for these alts?

[tpols]

they were called the jailblazers for good reason.

shit... i gotta go watch some of their highlights.

young Zbo, sheed, ruben patterson... buncha gangbangers on that squad their discipline wasnt the best. like a prison team.

qyntell woods. :roll: these mfers and their names. this guy got hit with mike vick charges for pitbull fighting.

[Axe]

and kevin johnson was never even remotely close to the shooting threat kyrie is.

thats why hes got a GOAT offensive package. can J you from anywhere, and has impeccable touch, footwork, and intuition finishing in the paint.

kyrie obviously wouldnt be better than pippen for the bulls, but they would still win with him. pippen has had some sorry ass series.

You only need to win 4/7 games. Kyrie may have his down ones, but in the playoffs has gone off more than not. They'd avalanche a lot of teams.
Why didn't you come back in the other thread after saying tristan thompson was a dennis rodman for the cavs?

[Mamba4Life]

Pippen peak ppg average: 22ppg in the 1994 season

Kyries peak ppg average: 24ppg in the 2018 season


So Pippen and Kyrie were equal scorers, expect Pippen was vastly better at rebounding, playmaking, and defense as well. So Kyrie is worth half of a Pippen, and LeBron beat a 73 win team with half a Pippen, while Jordan lost to the baby Magic with a Full Pippen in 1995 :O

yikes


Umm.. 3ball?

https://media.tenor.com/images/285b0ff5dab6b310360cf2d49b646605/tenor.gif

[3ball]

Should we look at the stats?

[3ball]

Umm.. 3ball?

https://media.tenor.com/images/285b0ff5dab6b310360cf2d49b646605/tenor.gif

Those are regular season numbers, and Kyrie still destroys him

The playoffs and Finals is where Kyrie shows big edges on Pippen

[Roundball_Rock]

they were called the jailblazers for good reason.

shit... i gotta go watch some of their highlights.

young Zbo, sheed, ruben patterson... buncha gangbangers on that squad their discipline wasnt the best. like a prison team.

qyntell woods. :roll: these mfers and their names. this guy got hit with mike vick charges for pitbull fighting.

The had a fat, washed up Kemp and washed up Schrempf too (not in the 00' run but thereafter). :lol

[Axe]

Those are regular season numbers, and Kyrie still destroys him

The playoffs and Finals is where Kyrie shows big edges on Pippen
Wtf you talking about? Kyrie has never even led the cavaliers to a playoff appearance on his own alone.

[Jasper]

from 1988-1998

i say somewhere between 0 and 1


zero

[3ball]

Wtf you talking about? Kyrie has never even led the cavaliers to a playoff appearance on his own alone.

Neither did Pippen without a 3-peat team

How else did you think the 94' Bulls won with only 22 from Pippen, while the 88' Bulls needed 35 from MJ?.. Obviously, the 94' Bulls had better teamwork

Or perhaps you think Pippen's 22 would do better in 88' than mj's 35 did?... Obviously not - 94' Pip wins about 15 games with the 88' bulls

[3ball]

Umm.. 3ball?

https://media.tenor.com/images/285b0ff5dab6b310360cf2d49b646605/tenor.gif

Playoffs

Kyrie 16-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2016-2017-sum:playoffs_per_game)...... 23.9 ppg.. 57.3 ts... 23.0 PER.. 0.181 ws/48.. 3.6 obpm
Pippen 91-96' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1996-sum:playoffs_per_game)... 19.8 ppg.. 52.4 ts... 19.7 PER.. 0.157 ws/48.. 3.1 obpm

Kyrie 16-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2016-2017-sum:playoffs_advanced)...... outplayed league mvp.. hit Finals-winning shot
Pippen 91-96' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1996-sum:playoffs_advanced)... outplayed by schrempf.. no winning shots


Finals

Kyrie 16' and 17'... 28.0 on 46.5%
Pippen 6 Finals..... 19.0 on 42.5%


It's not close - Kyrie > Pippen

[Mamba4Life]

Playoffs

Kyrie 16-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2016-2017-sum:playoffs_per_game)...... 23.9 ppg.. 57.3 ts... 23.0 PER.. 0.181 ws/48.. 3.6 obpm
Pippen 91-96' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1996-sum:playoffs_per_game)... 19.8 ppg.. 52.4 ts... 19.7 PER.. 0.157 ws/48.. 3.1 obpm

Kyrie 16-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2016-2017-sum:playoffs_advanced)...... outplayed league mvp.. hit Finals-winning shot
Pippen 91-96' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1996-sum:playoffs_advanced)... outplayed by schrempf.. no winning shots


Finals

Kyrie 16' and 17'... 28.0 on 46.5%
Pippen 6 Finals..... 19.0 on 42.5%


It's not close - Kyrie > Pippen

Peak Kyrie averages 2 more ppg than peak Pippen

But Pippen is the far superior playmaker, rebounder, defender


You really want me to start posting Pippen’s Top 10 MVP finishes compared to Kyrie? :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen was in the playoffs 16 years in a row, 0 losing seasons, until his final year when he played only 23 games.


You really want me to start posting Pippen’s Top 10 MVP finishes compared to Kyrie?

:oldlol: Kyrie the "superstar" who rarely makes all-NBA and is never a MVP candidate.

[Axe]

Neither did Pippen without a 3-peat team

How else did you think the 94' Bulls won with only 22 from Pippen, while the 88' Bulls needed 35 from MJ?.. Obviously, the 94' Bulls had better teamwork

Or perhaps you think Pippen's 22 would do better in 88' than mj's 35 did?... Obviously not - 94' Pip wins about 15 games with the 88' bulls
Just so you know, pippen played for portland in '00 and even pushed the eventual champion lakers to seven games in that year's wcf. I mentioned that because i think it was the closest he got to the finals outside of the 90s bulls dynasty.

[tpols]

Pippen was in the playoffs 16 years in a row, 0 losing seasons, until his final year when he played only 23 games.



:oldlol: Kyrie the "superstar" who rarely makes all-NBA and is never a MVP candidate.

Pippen has much better long term value, but there's no doubt in any one single game kyrie could eclipse him a thousand fold.

and the playoffs are short.

[3ball]

Pippen was in the playoffs 16 years in a row, 0 losing seasons, until his final year when he played only 23 games.



:oldlol: Kyrie the "superstar" who rarely makes all-NBA and is never a MVP candidate.
He was the leading MVP candidate in 2018 before getting hurt, when his SURPRISE celtics were the 1 seed and a juggernaut.

But people forget that Hayward was the "one-too-many" piece that screwed everything up when Kyrie came back.. people forget this and change the narrative to whatever they want.. then they act like they were never way off (i.e. they act like they knew Boston would be good or pretend they were good all along)

But most importantly, Kyrie was never going to get the recognition that Pippen got because lebron didn't leverage Kyrie's superior production into the constant favorite/winning status that MJ did with Pippen's weaker stats.. Pippen's inferior stats and are simply inflated by the winning spotlight.. NO OTHER PLAYER sees their weaker stats boosted like this . :facepalm:

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen has much better long term value, but there's no doubt in any one single game kyrie could eclipse him a thousand fold.

and the playoffs are short.

I doubt it. You are looking only at scoring. Irving's scoring ceiling (in an easier to score era) is much higher. Pippen outproduces him in every other facet of the game.

The main thing, though, is Pippen makes his teammates better and Irving worse. So we can't just look at their individual stats. We have to factor in how Kyrie turns players like Tatum or LeVert into being useless. Meanwhile, Pippen lifts all boats.

Forget Pippen. Brooklyn is better with Dinwiddie and Boston with Rozier. Does it then follow that Chicago would win rings with Dinwiddie in place of Pippen?

[Axe]

Pippen has much better long term value, but there's no doubt in any one single game kyrie could eclipse him a thousand fold.

and the playoffs are short.
Yes, mostly in dribbling the ball. Lmao.

[3ball]

I doubt it. You are looking only at scoring. Irving's scoring ceiling (in an easier to score era) is much higher. Pippen outproduces him in every other facet of the game.

The main thing, though, is Pippen makes his teammates better and Irving worse. So we can't just look at their individual stats. We have to factor in how Kyrie turns players like Tatum or LeVert into being useless. Meanwhile, Pippen lifts all boats.

Forget Pippen. Brooklyn is better with Dinwiddie and Boston with Rozier. Does it then follow that Chicago would win rings with Dinwiddie in place of Pippen?

Players that can't iso or shoot aren't good without systems

That's Pippen

If you think Pippen can do anything without a system then you haven't seen him play or aren't applying basketball 101 to his game... he's the most obvious system player ever, aside from maybe Draymond

[AirBonner]

Depends, does MJ have GOAT level carrying ability like LeBron?

[3ball]

Depends, does MJ have GOAT level carrying ability like LeBron?

It's funny because lebron reduces his team's attack by pursuing so many defensive rebounds (he likes to start the break himself), rather than let his big get the board and outlet to him (gets the ball up court quicker)

Ultimately, defensive rebounds are a team effort and it makes no sense to point them out because it's dictated by position (forwards get more than guards, etc)

And high personal assists from 1 guy means low TEAM assists, and lebron's teams are massively out-assisted in the championship..

So scoring is all that matters and MJ rules - goat scoring and clutch load.. lowest-scoring casts ever in the Finals

[Smoke117]

Playoffs

Kyrie 16-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2016-2017-sum:playoffs_per_game)...... 23.9 ppg.. 57.3 ts... 23.0 PER.. 0.181 ws/48.. 3.6 obpm
Pippen 91-96' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1996-sum:playoffs_per_game)... 19.8 ppg.. 52.4 ts... 19.7 PER.. 0.157 ws/48.. 3.1 obpm

Kyrie 16-17' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2016-2017-sum:playoffs_advanced)...... outplayed league mvp.. hit Finals-winning shot
Pippen 91-96' (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1996-sum:playoffs_advanced)... outplayed by schrempf.. no winning shots


Finals

Kyrie 16' and 17'... 28.0 on 46.5%
Pippen 6 Finals..... 19.0 on 42.5%


It's not close - Kyrie > Pippen

So Kyrie has a slightly better obpm when he's supposed to be much better...okay, now post their dbpm. Exactly.

[Axe]

It's funny because lebron reduces his team's attack by pursuing so many defensive rebounds (he likes to start the break himself), rather than let his big get the board and outlet to him (gets the ball up court quicker)

Ultimately, defensive rebounds are a team effort and it makes no sense to point them out because it's dictated by position (forwards get more than guards, etc)

And high personal assists from 1 guy means low TEAM assists, and lebron's teams are massively out-assisted in the championship..

So scoring is all that matters and MJ rules - goat scoring and clutch load.. lowest-scoring casts ever in the Finals
Scoring is definitely nothing if you don't have the ball nor if you don't make those shots.

[tpols]

Yes, mostly in dribbling the ball. Lmao.

and putting it in the basket.

[3ball]

So Kyrie has a slightly better obpm when he's supposed to be much better...okay, now post their dbpm. Exactly.

For Lebron's entire career, he had more rim protection, more athletic guards and more defensive rebounders, which is why his team defenses were often equal or better than MJ's (despite being a weak defensive leader)

MJ three-peated with only the #7 defense - every ECF and Finals opponent from 91-93' had a better defense, except the Suns' #9 defense

Otoh, Lebron lost to the #4 SRS with the #3 defense and 18 on 38% from Mo - MJ always won with that help on both sides of the ball, including defeating the #1 SRS with the #11 defense and 15 on 40% from Pip

[Smoke117]

For Lebron's entire career, he had more rim protection, more athletic guards and more defensive rebounders, which is why his team defenses were often equal or better than MJ's (despite being a weak defensive leader)

MJ three-peated with only the #7 defense - every ECF and Finals opponent from 91-93' had a better defense, except the Suns' #9 defense

Otoh, Lebron lost to the #4 SRS with the #3 defense and 18 on 38% from Mo - MJ always won with that help on both sides of the ball, including defeating the #1 SRS with the #11 defense and 15 on 40% from Pip


So Kyrie has a slightly better obpm when he's supposed to be much better...okay, now post their dbpm. Exactly.

^^^

[3ball]

^^^


1) Mosgov averaged 1.5 blocks... Corzine once got 0.8 for MJ in 88'... Cartwright got 0.5 in 89'

2) Tristan and Love are double-figure rebound guys - MJ always had only 1 double-figure capable rebounder at any given time

3) Shumpert, JR Smith, and R Jefferson are far more athletic guards than Paxson, BJ, Kerr...



^^^ superior rim protection, more athletic guards and more defensive rebounders resulted in weaker defenses than MJ because of lebron's inferiority as a defensive player and leader

[Smoke117]

Yeah, that's what I thought. I'm not even reading these post either so you can just stop.

[3ball]

Yeah, that's what I thought. I'm not even reading these post either so you can just stop.

Pippen has better dbpm so that means what exactly....

Kyrie has better PPG, efficiency, PER, win shares, aka EVERYTHING

your argument of b-b-but defense is both weak and inaccurate (defense is a team effort and lebron had more help overall)

[Mamba4Life]

Pippen has better dbpm so that means what exactly....

Kyrie has better PPG, efficiency, PER, win shares, aka EVERYTHING

your argument of b-b-but defense is both weak and inaccurate (defense is a team effort and lebron had more help overall)


To win with Kyrie, you need a player capable of averaging 10+ rebounds and 9+ assists to make up for Kyrie’s deficiencies


Jordan wouldn’t be able to do that, so he wouldn’t win

[3ball]

To win with Kyrie, you need a player capable of averaging 10+ rebounds and 9+ assists to make up for Kyrie’s deficiencies


Jordan wouldn’t be able to do that, so he wouldn’t win

MJ won all the time while averaging 9 apg

Who cares about the rebounds because MJ is a guard

^^^ So that beats you using your flawed logic...

Otoh, the reality is that high apg players like lebron result in low TEAM assists.. so we don't want MJ dominating the ball and getting a lot of assists like lebron, because then he'd have a low ball movement brand that loses in the championship to better ball movement

Btw, MJ averaged 7.9 apg in the Finals thru 3 rings, compared to only 7.2 for lebron thru 3 rings

[sdot_thadon]

How does a thread about Kyrie joining Mj make it 8 pages with no mention of Kyrie running for the hills soon as Mj gives him a dose of "tough love"?

Also, how do the same characters that claim an NFL Tight end sized Lebron couldn't handle handchecking also think fragile Kyrie could somehow survive it?

[Roundball_Rock]

How does a thread about Kyrie joining Mj make it 8 pages with no mention of Kyrie running for the hills soon as Mj gives him a dose of "tough love"?

Also, how do the same characters that claim an NFL Tight end sized Lebron couldn't handle handchecking also think fragile Kyrie could somehow survive it?

Great point. It seems those are agenda driven narratives that only apply selectively. Another example is all these people comparing Irving scoring 25 today with Pippen scoring 22 in the 90's. Wasn't defense super tough and much harder then than it is today? Yet Irving gets no downgrade if he played back then?

Pippen versus Irving

All-NBA: Pippen 7, Irving 2
All-NBA 1st team: Pippen 3, Irving 0
All-star: Pippen 7, Irving 6
Pippen top MVP finishes: 3rd, 5th, 7th
Irving top MVP finishes: zero career MVP votes, not even one 5th place vote
VORP top 10 finishes: Pippen 7, Irving 2 (10th both times)
VORP top 5 finishes: Pippen 3, Irving 0
BPM top 10 finishes: Pippen 7, Irving 2
BPM top 5 finishes: Pippen 2, Irving 1 (Pippen 3rd twice, Irving 5th once)
All-D teams: Pippen 10, Irving 0

Pippen clearly has a vastly superior resume. The only way to square this with Pippen being a scrub and Irving the superstar is that Pippen must have played in a weak era. That is the amusing implication being made by 3ball and co...

[Axe]

Lbj stans used to have narratives that often claim the 90s was the weakest or most diluted era in basketball.

[Roundball_Rock]

Is Irving a "superstar"? If so, does that make these guys superstars too?

All-NBA: Irving/DeRozan/Klay 2, Walker 1 (2 after this year)
All-star: Irving 6, Klay 5, Walker/DeRozan 4
MVP finishes: DeRozan 8th, Klay 10th, DeRozan 11th (0 MVP votes for Irving and Walker--Walker likely to get some lower ballot votes this year)

Boston record with Irving (2019): 37-30 (45 win pace)
Boston record minus Irving (2019): 12-3
Boston record with Walker (2020): 33-17 (54 win pace)

Tatum in 2019: 16/6/2
Tatum in 2020: 24/7/3
Brown in 2019: 13/4/1
Brown in 2020: 20/6/2

What if you put Kemba on the Bulls? :bowdown:

[Roundball_Rock]

I don't see Kyrie on this list but Pippen is on there (right behind peak Kobe)? https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Jordan-v-GOAT-on-off-results-91-93-50g.png

[warriorfan]

I don't see Kyrie on this list but Pippen is on there? https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Jordan-v-GOAT-on-off-results-91-93-50g.png

Curry the GOAT

[CTbasketball92]

Not really. Whether he was scoring or not, Pippen actually made the game easier for his teammates and made them better. Kyrie doesn't have that ability whatsoever. Everything he does offensively is on an individual level. There is also, as I said before, the fact that he plays in a very soft era right now that caters to small guards. The 90s wasn't like that at all and and he'd have to deal with hand checking and getting hammered at the rim.


Kyrie is a much better scorer than Scottie Pippen in every way, and his skillset suggests that he could do it in any era. In a few ways, Kyrie is like a less esxplosive, step slower, 6'2" MJ without the GOAT feel for the game but a elite three-point shooter. He shoots 50% from midrange and 40% from three and about 88% from freethrow line for his career. We can talk about soft rules for guards, but we're kidding ourselves if we say anyone from the '90s is gonna consistently stay in front of Irving. He's simply too good with the ball. When it comes to getting by defenders, dribbling in the open court and shooting off the dribble, he's in the highest tier. He's also notably very strong with MJ-like body control and balance.

Also, the bolded was very overstated. The celtics team, especially his second year after he had time to get used to things, had a top 10 offense and were better with him on the court, and he consistently made smart reads and got people their touches. He knew when to score, when to pass, etc. He'd have figured things out with the Nets this year too. The fact that he can play on or off ball is also huge.

Scottie is a much better defender and a decent scorer, but he's not the same level of offensive player. He can't shoot, and I'm not even sure he ever scored above average efficiency during a playoff run.

I think Mj wins two or three rings with Kyrie as long as they have a small forward that's at *least* adequate defensively. But Mj and Kyrie isn't a great match because it's redundant. MJ is such an elite halfcourt scorer that he can do the work of Kyrie and LeBron at times scoring the ball. He's by far the GOAT scorer. But Scottie did all the other things so MJ could focus on scoring. MJ could do everything as well, but Scottie could take the best player, be a second option scorer, etc.

LeBron can do everything like Scottie and MJ, but he's got the size advantage that makes it so he can be a team's entire system. Kyrie is an adequate No. 1 option, but he's all-time good at shot creation and shooting and he's a very solid passer. Kyrie was able to give LeBron rest by going on 15-20 point flurries at pivotal points in the middle of the game while LeBron was a floor general, could play defense and pick his spots. Although he wasn't nearly as good as LeBron at passing, Kyrie would generally make the right pass and he'd also never really turn the ball over. His turnover rate is very low. At the end of close games I'd take the 2015 (with Kyrie healthy) to 2017 Cavs over most teams in NBA history because w. Kyrie's shotmaking and LeBron's all-around play it's just hard to beat.

But in a nutshell, Kyrie was to LeBron what Scottie is to MJ. Both complimented the strengths of the two GOATs perfectly.

[CTbasketball92]

Great point. It seems those are agenda driven narratives that only apply selectively. Another example is all these people comparing Irving scoring 25 today with Pippen scoring 22 in the 90's. Wasn't defense super tough and much harder then than it is today? Yet Irving gets no downgrade if he played back then?

Pippen versus Irving

All-NBA: Pippen 7, Irving 2
All-NBA 1st team: Pippen 3, Irving 0
All-star: Pippen 7, Irving 6
Pippen top MVP finishes: 3rd, 5th, 7th
Irving top MVP finishes: zero career MVP votes, not even one 5th place vote
VORP top 10 finishes: Pippen 7, Irving 2 (10th both times)
VORP top 5 finishes: Pippen 3, Irving 0
BPM top 10 finishes: Pippen 7, Irving 2
BPM top 5 finishes: Pippen 2, Irving 1 (Pippen 3rd twice, Irving 5th once)
All-D teams: Pippen 10, Irving 0

Pippen clearly has a vastly superior resume. The only way to square this with Pippen being a scrub and Irving the superstar is that Pippen must have played in a weak era. That is the amusing implication being made by 3ball and co...

I won't front I think Scottie was overrated. I think his scoring didn't quite reach the threshhold for where it would need to be. He was never as responsible for a chip as Kyrie was for the 2016 Cavs chip. He might have been a better player (Kyrie the last four years would stack up pretty favorably besides durability), but I don't think LeBron would rather have Pippen, because of fit.

[CTbasketball92]

Yes he did but not at the same scoring clip especially once Barkley came onboard. There's more examples of smaller guards not hitting those kind of percentages, especially on any sort of volume( for the sake of this discussion let's say 22ppg up) than ones that did. Speculative either way where he lands. He's playing in an era designed for players like him to showcase his iso skills.

I think people are really understating Kyrie's abilities as a scorer. He's not an all-time great in terms of volume, but he's historically great in terms of all around shooting ability and offensive scoring talent. It's like if you gave a player Kobe's body control, footwork Steve Nash's jumper and CP3's ballhandling ability and GOAT agility. Why is it a foregon conclusion that he wouldn't hit 24-25 on 45%>? Those guys that were as quick as him or had similar handle simply were not the shooter that Kyrie is. He's probably a top 7 or 8 shooter in the whole league. Off the dribble only Steph is consistently better. He might get hurt, but while in games he's very strong and notably able to finish any which way with both hands. he's a savant.

I'd still want Pippen for MJ tho.

[Mamba4Life]

I think people are really understating Kyrie's abilities as a scorer. He's not an all-time great in terms of volume, but he's historically great in terms of all around shooting ability and offensive scoring talent. It's like if you gave a player Kobe's body control, footwork Steve Nash's jumper and CP3's ballhandling ability and GOAT agility. Why is it a foregon conclusion that he wouldn't hit 24-25 on 45%>? Those guys that were as quick as him or had similar handle simply were not the shooter that Kyrie is. He's probably a top 7 or 8 shooter in the whole league. Off the dribble only Steph is consistently better. He might get hurt, but while in games he's very strong and notably able to finish any which way with both hands. he's a savant.

I'd still want Pippen for MJ tho.

Kyrie’s peak scoring is 24ppg

Pippen was a 22ppg scorer at his peak

[aceman]

Pippen has better dbpm so that means what exactly....

Kyrie has better PPG, efficiency, PER, win shares, aka EVERYTHING

your argument of b-b-but defense is both weak and inaccurate (defense is a team effort and lebron had more help overall)
What argument are you making?
Bulls didn't need help on offense. Jordan would dominant regardless who was playing alongside him. If Kyrie replaced Pippen only difference would be defence would be much worse

[nayte]

Jordan kyrie and Rodman still win rings

[Phoenix]

I think people are really understating Kyrie's abilities as a scorer. He's not an all-time great in terms of volume, but he's historically great in terms of all around shooting ability and offensive scoring talent. It's like if you gave a player Kobe's body control, footwork Steve Nash's jumper and CP3's ballhandling ability and GOAT agility. Why is it a foregon conclusion that he wouldn't hit 24-25 on 45%>? Those guys that were as quick as him or had similar handle simply were not the shooter that Kyrie is. He's probably a top 7 or 8 shooter in the whole league. Off the dribble only Steph is consistently better. He might get hurt, but while in games he's very strong and notably able to finish any which way with both hands. he's a savant.

I'd still want Pippen for MJ tho.

Speculation, which is what we are doing, isn't a foregone conclusion one way or another. How he adapts to the era physically is a factor when he's not exactly durable in the current era which is generally considered softer. I'm not questioning his talent or skillset, but it is true that he has more room to operate in this era based on modern defensive rules. Most of these 'how do this player perform 25 years ago/25 years from now' conversations amounts to pissing in the wind. The alltime greats deserve a certain amount of leeway that they'd adapt and still be great. But Kyrie is a few tiers below that distinction so I'm not giving him the benefit of doubt that in 1995 he's any better than a Kevin Johnson/Tim Hardaway type talent or that his numbers scale 1:1. Who really knows?

[aceman]

People here don't understand how basketball works - MJ & Kyrie play same position. Much of what Kyrie can do would be redundant alongside MJ who will dominant scoring in any team. Kyrie brings nothing to enhance team liking defence or being ball distributor. Saying MJ as part of Bulls win with Kyrie instead of Pippen is basically same as saying Bulls win without Pippen full stop - we all know that's not happening

[Spurs m8]

Leroid has 2 without Kylie hitting one of the biggest shots in nba history.

He has 1 without Ray hitting the other biggest shot in nba history - which came from an offensive rebound after he clanked the shot himself.

He has none without beating a bunch of 20year olds after choking to dallas the year before and being swept by the spurs.

This thread is the reason I don't come here anymore...op is a dumb fvck and I choose not to deal with dumb fvcks


Eat my d1ck you fvcks

Lebron is an empty stat loser....deal with it hahahahj

[LAL]

People here don't understand how basketball works - MJ & Kyrie play same position. Much of what Kyrie can do would be redundant alongside MJ who will dominant scoring in any team. Kyrie brings nothing to enhance team liking defence or being ball distributor. Saying MJ as part of Bulls win with Kyrie instead of Pippen is basically same as saying Bulls win without Pippen full stop - we all know that's not happening

Meanwhile pippen becomes useless trying to play with lebron on the cavs

[Bronbron23]

Definitely 1. Pip was injured and pretty ineffective in 1998. Any all star level player would of been better than pip that year.

[3ball]

Definitely 1. Pip was injured and pretty ineffective in 1998. Any all star level player would of been better than pip that year.

Pippen 96-98 Playoffs... 17.6 on 40.8%.. worst clutch stats ever
Kyrie... 16-17 Playoffs... 25.5 on 47.2%... elite clutch stats


Kyrie wins all 3 years

[3ball]

Pippen 96-98 Playoffs... 17.6 on 40.8%.. worst clutch stats ever
Kyrie... 16-17 Playoffs... 25.5 on 47.2%... elite clutch stats


^^^ Kyrie wins all 3 years



https://media0.giphy.com/media/10MGhMGr4WCiVW/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a4fb48233daf818f082fed5996b36 b6a39fdd0f55&rid=giphy.gif

[CTbasketball92]

Speculation, which is what we are doing, isn't a foregone conclusion one way or another. How he adapts to the era physically is a factor when he's not exactly durable in the current era which is generally considered softer. I'm not questioning his talent or skillset, but it is true that he has more room to operate in this era based on modern defensive rules. Most of these 'how do this player perform 25 years ago/25 years from now' conversations amounts to pissing in the wind. The alltime greats deserve a certain amount of leeway that they'd adapt and still be great. But Kyrie is a few tiers below that distinction so I'm not giving him the benefit of doubt that in 1995 he's any better than a Kevin Johnson/Tim Hardaway type talent or that his numbers scale 1:1. Who really knows?

I guess I just don't buy the idea that it was necessarily that much harder to score in every way back in the '90s. The big difference between Kyrie and KJ and TH is that he's got an all-time great jumper. He doesn't have the height, but his midrange game and efficiency was effective for the same reasons MJ was (minus the elevation, of course). If the midrange shot is always there and he shoots 50% it seems like he'd have no issues. Also, Kyrie is bigger and physically stronger than both KJ and Hardaway. He's not quite as quick as Kevin Johnson, but not as far off as people seem to think either. In terms of *talent* I would say he's better than these guys because he can get any where he wants like they can but he's an elite shooter. Not as good a passer, but a far more dynamic scoring talent.

[Phoenix]

I guess I just don't buy the idea that it was necessarily that much harder to score in every way back in the '90s. The big difference between Kyrie and KJ and TH is that he's got an all-time great jumper. He doesn't have the height, but his midrange game and efficiency was effective for the same reasons MJ was (minus the elevation, of course). If the midrange shot is always there and he shoots 50% it seems like he'd have no issues. Also, Kyrie is bigger and physically stronger than both KJ and Hardaway. He's not quite as quick as Kevin Johnson, but not as far off as people seem to think either. In terms of *talent* I would say he's better than these guys because he can get any where he wants like they can but he's an elite shooter. Not as good a passer, but a far more dynamic scoring talent.

MJ being 6'6 with that athleticism allowed him to get off midrange shots that's gonna be harder for Kyrie to get off in more packed in defenses. Kyrie has to dribble-dribble-dribble his way into an opportunity to get off a shot. How many coaches in the 90s are letting him stall the offense like that? When the bigs are fighting tooth and nail down low so you can dump them the ball? Plus back in the 90s he's not going to be taking as many 3s nor is he likely to be as much the focal point of the offense. Very few teams featured the PG being the top scorer so regardless of what actual ability he has to score, his stats are going to be impacted by the conventional strategies of the era. Alot of PGs from that era could have probably scored more today or even more back then if the focus wasn't typically on inside-out play.

Hell, look at Mark Price. You think 18-19ppg was his cap? He could have scored more too if he wasn't also tasked with feeding the ball inside to Daugherty on the block. We're in a era where its advantageous for the PG to be your primary offensive player. Rod Strickland was feeding Webber and Howard in situations where he probably could have scored 20 or more if he wanted. Isiah? Well his name is trending so can't forget him. Isiah in todays game would be dropping 25 without dropping a sweat. We're not talking apples to apples comparing today with the 90s as far as PG responsibilities and how the game was generally played. So having the ability to score 25 on 48% shooting from the PG spot, and actually being in the position to back then, shouldn't be conflated.

[Roundball_Rock]

I won't front I think Scottie was overrated. I think his scoring didn't quite reach the threshhold for where it would need to be. He was never as responsible for a chip as Kyrie was for the 2016 Cavs chip. He might have been a better player (Kyrie the last four years would stack up pretty favorably besides durability), but I don't think LeBron would rather have Pippen, because of fit.

1) Whether he is or is not overrated is not the issue. The issue is him compared to Irving. 2) Yes, Irving works better alongside LeBron but Pippen works alongside MJ better than MJ does for similar reasons of fit.


Pip was injured and pretty ineffective in 1998. Any all star level player would of been better than pip that year.

:kobe:

He was dominant in the 98' playoffs. It is a shame there are no real stats for defense.


Hell, look at Mark Price. You think 18-19ppg was his cap? He could have scored more too if he wasn't also tasked with feeding the ball inside to Daugherty on the block. We're in a era where its advantageous for the PG to be your primary offensive player.

True, but why is that analysis not applied to Pippen, because he was the de facto PG on the Bulls?

Back to Irving, why no answer to Boston doing better with Rozier and Brooklyn with Dinwiddie? Isn't Irving supposedly this other wordly superstar? Anyone saying Irving must think MJ wins rings with Terry Rozier.

[Roundball_Rock]

Where is Kyrie again?


I don't see Kyrie on this list but Pippen is on there (right behind peak Kobe)? https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Jordan-v-GOAT-on-off-results-91-93-50g.png

[Phoenix]

True, but why is that analysis not applied to Pippen, because he was the de facto PG on the Bulls?

Back to Irving, why no answer to Boston doing better with Rozier and Brooklyn with Dinwiddie? Isn't Irving supposedly this other wordly superstar?

I haven't made any reference to Pips scoring here. Are you asking this generally?

Ditto for Kyrie. Are you addressing this to me directly or just generally? Because I've long said that Kyrie is a spectacular individual talent but I don't think he has much tangible impact on winning. He's best paired with another superstar with better leadership qualifies, and you let him loose when the offense stalls or to carry the offense in sports.

[Roundball_Rock]

I haven't made any reference to Pips scoring here. Are you asking this generally?

Ditto for Kyrie. Are you addressing this to me directly or just generally?

Generally. Sorry for the confusion--my MO is to reply to a bunch of different people in the same reply so it can be confusing at times.

You made great points about PGs and the limits on their scoring in the 90's. I never see any of the Pippen detractors mention that vis-a-vis him. Nor will they explain how they say literally every other perimeter player of the 90's would experience a huge boost in scoring today--except Pippen (yet Pippen's 22 versus Irving's 24 are supposed to be taken at face value per many of the same people).


Because I've long said that Kyrie is a spectacular individual talent but I don't think he has much tangible impact on winning. He's best paired with another superstar with better leadership qualifies, and you let him loose when the offense stalls or to carry the offense in sports.

Agreed. It is almost surreal to hear people talking about Kyrie winning 4-5 rings in hypotethicals when his actual teams perform better with Rozier and Dinwiddie. It isn't because they are better individual talents. It is they don't drastically hinder every other teammate's production like Kyrie does. Boston and Brookyln add by subtracting when Kyrie was/is out. If you put Kyrie on the Bulls, Kukoc, Armstrong, Grant, Kerr all presumably would see their productivity nosedive. With Pippen he raised his teammate's production.

[red1]

considering all of the things pippen brought to the table that kyrie does NOT bring - I have to say they would be less successful.


possibly MUCH less successful.

[Mamba4Life]

10 pages in.. still not one answer from the Jordan stans

How many rings?

[3ball]

considering all of the things pippen brought to the table that kyrie does NOT bring - I have to say they would be less successful.


possibly MUCH less successful.
Pippen 96-98 Playoffs... 17.6 on 40.8%.. worst clutch stats ever
Kyrie... 16-17 Playoffs... 25.5 on 47.2%... elite clutch stats


Obviously, Kyrie wins all 3 years

And with Kyrie, the Bulls wouldn't need the expensive offensive help like Pippen required, so they could get a cheap defender/rim protector like Mosgov (better rim protection than mj ever had)

[aceman]

Pippen 96-98 Playoffs... 17.6 on 40.8%.. worst clutch stats ever
Kyrie... 16-17 Playoffs... 25.5 on 47.2%... elite clutch stats


Obviously, Kyrie wins all 3 years

And with Kyrie, the Bulls wouldn't need the expensive offensive help like Pippen required, so they could get a cheap defender/rim protector like Mosgov (better rim protection than mj ever had)

If Bulls needed Pippen to score more he would've. Kyrie can't offer anywhere near same on defense.
Rodman was cheapest power forward option available on list of six or more drafted by Phil Jackson. Coleman, Mason & even Jayson Williams would've broken salary cap - you're just make crap up now

[3ball]

If Bulls needed Pippen to score more he would've. Kyrie can't offer anywhere near same on defense.
Rodman was cheapest power forward option available on list of six or more drafted by Phil Jackson. Coleman, Mason & even Jayson Williams would've broken salary cap - you're just make crap up now

No Pippen couldn't score more

His career high (capacity) was 22.0 and 5.6 apg in 1994 - he exceeded this alongside MJ in 1992 (21.0 and 7.0 apg) and was close in other years - so he played to capacity next to MJ

And Pippen averaged 17.6 on 40.8% for the entire 2nd three-peat - he was barely keeping his head above water, and was infact drowning

So MJ's volume was required, and only MJ shot well at high volume, so only he could win with those Bulls' casts (the lowest scoring casts of the shot-clock era, aka since 1954)

[Mamba4Life]

No Pippen couldn't score more

His career high (capacity) was 22.0 and 5.6 apg in 1994 - he exceeded this alongside MJ in 1992 (21.0 and 7.0 apg) and was close in other years - so he played to capacity next to MJ

And Pippen averaged 17.6 on 40.8% for the entire 2nd three-peat - he was barely keeping his head above water, and was infact drowning

So MJ's volume was required, and only MJ shot well at high volume, so only he could win with those Bulls' casts (the lowest scoring casts of the shot-clock era, aka since 1954)

Kyrie got 2ppg more than Pippen (24 vs 22)

Pippen was a far superior playmaker, rebounder, defender

[3ball]

Kyrie got 2ppg more than Pippen (24 vs 22)




No, Kyrie averaged nearly 8 more:

Pippen 96-98 Playoffs... 17.6 on 40.8%.. worst clutch stats ever
Kyrie... 16-17 Playoffs... 25.5 on 47.2%... elite clutch stats


So MJ sweeps every year with Kyrie... 16-0 three straight years in playoffs (or 15-0)


And Pippen is nothing compared to Kyrie as a playmaker. Pippen infact can't create

[Roundball_Rock]

How many rings does MJ win with Orlando Woolridge?

Kyrie's scoring peak is 24 PPG.
Pippen's scoring peak is 22 PPG.
Wooldridge's scoring peak is 25 PPG.

Can you imagine Michael Jeffrey Jordan playing with a 25 PPG caliber scorer? The league would be on lock!


Pippen infact can't create


While he was a phenomenal finisher and transition player, Pippen’s best offensive attribute was his passing. By my estimates, he dolled out “good” or “great” passes on about 3 plays per 100, which, for comparison, was slightly behind John Stockton’s rate. Scottie’s estimated creation rates seem inline with his hand-tracked ones, around 6-7 per 100 during his prime years. His shot selection was sound, launching only his pull-up 3-pointer too hastily.

The following video showcases Pippen’s passing ability — tight transition passes, advanced interior dishes and high-level shot-passes. While he possessed excellent vision, notice that there’s still a pass or two in there that arrive a half-second late (at 8:40 and 8:56):

https://backpicks.com/2018/01/29/backpicks-goat-23-scottie-pippen/

[3ball]

How many rings does MJ win with Orlando Woolridge?

Kyrie's scoring peak is 24 PPG.
Pippen's scoring peak is 22 PPG.
Wooldridge's scoring peak is 25 PPG.

Can you imagine Michael Jeffrey Jordan playing with a 25 PPG caliber scorer? The league would be on lock!





https://backpicks.com/2018/01/29/backpicks-goat-23-scottie-pippen/

There's no data for "good" and "great" passes in today's game, let alone the 80's and 90's.. those particular stats are made up.. but other than a few stat categories that back picks pulls out of their ass, it's a good analysis

[Gougou]

Hmm probably 2-3 rings, Kyrie doesn't have the impact Pippen does, but he is still a high quality role player.

[Roundball_Rock]

Where does Kyrie rank relative to his teammates' net on/off court rating? (To help Kyrie out I excluded anyone who played less than 100 minutes.)

2020: 8th
2019: 6th
2018: 7th
2017: 3rd
2016: 10th
Average: 7th

It is laughable he is being compared to a HOF player. There is a reason why he has never gotten even a single 5th place MVP vote despite being in the NBA for many years.

How about Pippen?

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Jordan-v-GOAT-on-off-results-91-93-50g.png


There's no data for "good" and "great" passes in today's game, let alone the 80's and 90's

Sure there is. He did what Pro Football Focus did: watch tons of tape and assign grades to players.

[3ball]

Where does Kyrie rank on his teams' net on/off court rating? I am excluding players who played an unrepresentative sample (like 15 or 16 minutes all season).

2020: 8th
2019: 6th
2018: 7th
2017: 3rd
2016: 10th

How about Pippen?

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Jordan-v-GOAT-on-off-results-91-93-50g.png



Sure there is. He did what Pro Football Focus did: watch tons of tape and assign grades to players.

MJ, Pippen and Kukoc set the on-off record in 96' before Curry and Draymond broke it in 16'

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ, Pippen and Kukoc set the on-off record in 96' before Curry and Draymond broke it in 16'

Pippen did. Duncan slightly eclipsed him then Curry.

The graphic isn't raw on-off data, though. It is net on-off data. Again, where is Kyrie Irving? He can't even crack the top half of his own team in on-off and we are comparing him to the guy who is right behind 06' Kobe.

[3ball]

Pippen did. Duncan slightly eclipsed him then Curry.

The graphic isn't raw on-off data, though. It is net on-off data. Again, where is Kyrie Irving? He can't even crack the top half of his own team in on-off and we are comparing him to the guy who is right behind 06' Kobe.

Was Kyrie the full-time PG or did he have to share his position with one of his bigs?

I'm sure he loved that

Ultimately, you can't compare because Kyrie was forced to play a vastly inferior brand of ball - comparing it to goat brands like the Warriors or Bulls is silly

[Roundball_Rock]

Ultimately, you can't compare because Kyrie was forced to play a vastly inferior brand of ball - comparing it to goat brands like the Warriors or Bulls is silly

:coleman:

It works for Dinwiddie, Rozier, and Kemba Walker, doesn't it?

[3ball]

:coleman:

It works for Dinwiddie, Rozier, and Kemba Walker, doesn't it?

Kyrie is far superior to Pippen and the numbers show that clearly - you're looking at one stat and ignoring the total stats that say Kyrie is far superior

Why should I respond to your one stat when you're ignoring my 80 stats where Kyrie is better?

[aceman]

No, Kyrie averaged nearly 8 more:

Pippen 96-98 Playoffs... 17.6 on 40.8%.. worst clutch stats ever
Kyrie... 16-17 Playoffs... 25.5 on 47.2%... elite clutch stats


So MJ sweeps every year with Kyrie... 16-0 three straight years in playoffs (or 15-0)


And Pippen is nothing compared to Kyrie as a playmaker. Pippen infact can't create

Comparing different eras, but anyway Pippen chasing Mark Jackson & Stockton in 1998 playoffs because scoring for Bulls wasn't priority.

[3ball]

Comparing different eras, but anyway Pippen chasing Mark Jackson & Stockton in 1998 playoffs because scoring for Bulls wasn't priority.

Pippen's 16 on 40% nearly cost the bulls the series in the 98' ECF

Nearly anyone else would've done much better so the bulls would've won easier like they were supposed to

And Mark Jackson is the slowest pg in history - Reggie Miller was their best scorer so MJ guarded him, just like he always did (Drexler, Magic, Payton, T Hardaway)

And Pippen never guarded Stockton... Only MJ did

[aceman]

Pippen's 16 on 40% nearly cost the bulls the series in the 98' ECF

Nearly anyone else would've done much better so the bulls would've won easier like they were supposed to

And Mark Jackson is the slowest pg in history - Reggie Miller was their best scorer so MJ guarded him, just like he always did (Drexler, Magic, Payton, T Hardaway)

And Pippen never guarded Stockton... Only MJ did

Pippen guarded Jackson to disrupt pacers offense to stop Miller getting ball of screen etc. If MJ was going to chase Miller all game & shut him down why did they make move with Pippen?
Go watch 98 finals & see Pippen cover both Stockton & Ostertag at same time - very few players in history have speed & length to do this.

[3ball]

Pippen guarded Jackson to disrupt pacers offense to stop Miller getting ball of screen etc. If MJ was going to chase Miller all game & shut him down why did they make move with Pippen?
Go watch 98 finals & see Pippen cover both Stockton & Ostertag at same time - very few players in history have speed & length to do this.

MJ was actually Stockton's defender for parts of the game

Pippen simply shaded on screen-rolls which everyone did including Jordan.. you're inflating simple shading

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen guarded Jackson to disrupt pacers offense to stop Miller getting ball of screen etc. If MJ was going to chase Miller all game & shut him down why did they make move with Pippen?
Go watch 98 finals & see Pippen cover both Stockton & Ostertag at same time - very few players in history have speed & length to do this.

He didn't watch back then so all his is left with is box scores (namely scoring). Without Pippen the Pacers easily beat the Bulls.

[3ball]

He didn't watch back then so all his is left with is box scores (namely scoring). Without Pippen the Pacers easily beat the Bulls.


Mark Jackson was never considered a threat on the court

Pippen is the only player in history that gets credit for guarding mark.. standard Pippen inflation by Bron stans... Butbthe facts tell a different story

And the bulls win with anyone replacing Pippen, whose 16 on 40% nearly cost the bulls the series

[Roundball_Rock]

Mark Jackson was never considered a threat on the court


Case in point. The purpose of Pippen on Jackson was to disable Indiana's ability to execute their offense.

For those who didn't watch, here is a sample of what Pippen did in the ECF:

https://youtu.be/ImRvytke08c

[3ball]

Case in point. The purpose of Pippen on Jackson was to disable Indiana's ability to execute their offense. Pippen got Jacksnon, Harper Miller, while MJ was again the #4 option on defense.

Anyone could've done what Pippen did - mark is literally the slowest PG ever

And MJ guarded Miller - MJ always guarded the opponent's top player

And again, Pippen's 16 on 40% nearly cost the bulls the series.. anyone else and the Bulls win much easier

[Roundball_Rock]

Harper guarded Miller (just look at who MJ guards in that YouTube video for example). I just watched one of the Miami ECF games. Harper was guarding Hardaway. Harper guarded Stockton. MJ consistently got the light work among the Chicago guards, yet kept being voted all-D first team. :lol

[3ball]

Harper guarded Miller (just look at who MJ guards in that YouTube video for example). I just watched one of the Miami ECF games. Harper was guarding Hardaway. Harper guarded Stockton. MJ consistently got the light work among the Chicago guards, yet kept being voted all-D first team. :lol
MJ was the primary defender on Miller, Magic, Drexler, Isiah, Payton, T Hardaway, and even Rod Strickland

He did spot duty on Stockton, Penny, Hill, Vlade, Worthy, Barkley and others

Otoh, Pippen was never the primary defender on the opponent's best player, except the 96' Finals when Penny torched him, and the regular season vs Grant Hill's lessons

[aceman]

Harper guarded Miller (just look at who MJ guards in that YouTube video for example). I just watched one of the Miami ECF games. Harper was guarding Hardaway. Harper guarded Stockton. MJ consistently got the light work among the Chicago guards, yet kept being voted all-D first team. :lol

Yep - Harper was chasing Miller throughout that series. Makes sense cause his role was to play defense & save MJ for scoring.
Phil Jackson also stated Pippen & Harper were more effective against smaller quicker guards

[aceman]

MJ was the primary defender on Miller, Magic, Drexler, Isiah, Payton, T Hardaway, and even Rod Strickland

He did spot duty on Stockton, Penny, Hill, Vlade, Worthy, Barkley and others

Otoh, Pippen was never the primary defender on the opponent's best player, except the 96' Finals when Penny torched him, and the regular season vs Grant Hill's lessons

I don't think you watched any of second three peat

[Roundball_Rock]

Yep - Harper was chasing Miller throughout that series. Makes sense cause his role was to play defense & save MJ for scoring.
Phil Jackson also stated Pippen & Harper were more effective against smaller quicker guards

Yup but the way MJ stans tell the story MJ was Pippen or Kawhi on defense his entire career. We know MJ conserved his energy on D after his first retirement, especially by 97' and 98'.


I don't think you watched any of second three peat

Isn't it stunning how many MJ stans are 20-25 year olds?

[999Guy]

Kyrie was such a horrible defender and not a team player on offense at times


However 91 Chicago(Grant/Jordan and the two-way role players) was too good anyway.


I don’t think the 92 Knicks beat them.

But they don’t get past the 92 Cavs in my opinion. That series was dicey as it was. Mark Price would eat their back court alive.

If they, by some miracle make it out that alive, the Blazers backcourt smoke them out in the Finals. Because despite the game 1 blowout, that was a very competitive series too.

They get lit up and bounced out by Phoenix in the finals too.

Second three peat?
Loss the the Sonics in a seven game shootout.

Beat Utah in the 97 finals.

Lose to Indiana in the 98 ECF.

That’s 2 titles in 6 years.

Bonus: Hakeems Rockets win comfortable in 94.

Orlando sweeps in 95.

[Axe]

Yup but the way MJ stans tell the story MJ was Pippen or Kawhi on defense his entire career. We know MJ conserved his energy on D after his first retirement, especially by 97' and 98'.



Isn't it stunning how many MJ stans are 20-25 year olds?
You don't have to try so hard.

I guess these are the very same immature mj stans who obviously make your life so miserable, judging by the fact that you still can't move on from them.

Even if you have good points there, you're just going to be disappointed since they wouldn't comprehend anything you would say.

Can't help but notice that you and 3ball are alike in having the same persistence when it comes to reciting your very own agendas.

[SATAN]

Isn't it stunning how many MJ stans are 20-25 year olds?

Yes, it's the fashionable thing to be for these kids

http://www.baconsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/miley-cyrus-jordan-jersey.jpg
https://stealherstyle.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/miley23_5.jpg
http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/miley-mj-ballislife.jpg