Oscar Robertson Compared to Other Sidekicks

[Roundball_Rock]

When Kareem is discussed Oscar quickly comes up. What isn’t mentioned is the version of Oscar that was in Milwaukee. Oscar was 32 by the time he got to Milwaukee. Oscar at his peak was 31/13/11. However, his lines in Milwuakee were 19/6/8, 17/5/8, 16/5/8, and 13/4/6. (On average, Oscar was 16/5/8 in Milwaukee after being 29/9/10 in Cincinnati.)

Let's compare his time as a sidekick to other sidekicks, both statistically and in all-NBA selections. The years used for these "sidekick" comparisons begin and end with their first and last finals appearance as the clear cut sidekick.

Oscar Compared to other “Sidekicks” Statistically

Oscar (71’-74') 16/5/8
Pippen (91’-98’) 20/7/6
Wade (11’-14’) 22/5/5
Irving (15’-17’) 22/3/5
Gasol* (08’-10’) 19/10/3
McHale (84’-88’) 22/9/2
Klay (15’-16’) 22/4/3
Kobe (00’-02’) 25/6/5
Magic (80’-82’) 19/9/9
Pierce (08’-10’) 20/5/4
Dumars (88'-90') 16/3/5
Worthy (87'-91') 20/6/3

How about looking at all-NBA selections? Since there was no third team when Oscar played, to keep it apples to apples let’s look at 1st and 2nd team selections.

Oscar Compared to other “Sidekicks” by All-NBA 1st/2nd Team Selections

Oscar (71’-74) 1
Pippen (91’-98’) 5
Wade (11’-14’) 1
Irving (15’-17’) 0
Gasol (08’-10’) 0
McHale (84’-88’) 1
Klay (15’-16’) 0
Kobe (00’-02’) 3
Magic (80’-82’) 1
Pierce (08’-10’) 1
Dumars (88'-90') 0
Worthy (87'-91') 0

Here only Kobe and Pippen stick out. Oscar made it once in four seasons, but so did McHale and Wade. Still, that puts them ahead of sidekicks that never made it in that role on a finals team like Irving, Gasol, and Dumars to name a few.

*This includes his half season in Memphis in 08’, where his numbers were essentially identical in Memphis and LA (his reduced volume was offset by much higher efficiency in LA). If you look at just 09’ and 10’ his line is still 19/10/3.

[warriorfan]

26/12.5/4.4

LeBron’s Third option Kevin Love

LeBron’s sidekicks have better sidekicks than all of these guys

[Stanley Kobrick]

When Kareem is discussed Oscar quickly comes up. What isn’t mentioned is the version of Oscar that was in Milwaukee. Oscar was 32 by the time he got to Milwaukee. Oscar at his peak was 31/13/11. However, his lines in Milwuakee were 19/6/8, 17/5/8, 16/5/8, and 13/4/6. (On average, Oscar was 16/5/8 in Milwaukee after being 29/9/10 in Cincinnati.)

Let's compare his time as a sidekick to other sidekicks, both statistically and in all-NBA selections. The years used for these "sidekick" comparisons begin and end with their first and last finals appearance as the clear cut sidekick.

Oscar Compared to other “Sidekicks” Statistically

Oscar (71’-74') 16/5/8
Pippen (91’-98’) 20/7/6
Wade (11’-14’) 22/5/5
Irving (15’-17’) 22/3/5
Gasol* (08’-10’) 19/10/3
McHale (84’-88’) 22/9/2
Klay (15’-16’) 22/4/3
Kobe (00’-02’) 25/6/5
Magic (80’-82’) 19/9/9
Pierce (08’-10’) 20/5/4
Dumars (88'-90') 16/3/5
Worthy (87'-91') 20/6/3

How about looking at all-NBA selections? Since there was no third team when Oscar played, to keep it apples to apples let’s look at 1st and 2nd team selections.

Oscar Compared to other “Sidekicks” by All-NBA 1st/2nd Team Selections

Oscar (71’-74) 1
Pippen (91’-98’) 5
Wade (11’-14’) 1
Irving (15’-17’) 0
Gasol (08’-10’) 0
McHale (84’-88’) 1
Klay (15’-16’) 0
Kobe (00’-02’) 3
Magic (80’-82’) 1
Pierce (08’-10’) 1
Dumars (88'-90') 0
Worthy (87'-91') 0

Here only Kobe and Pippen stick out. Oscar made it once in four seasons, but so did McHale and Wade. Still, that puts them ahead of sidekicks that never made it in that role on a finals team like Irving, Gasol, and Dumars to name a few.

*This includes his half season in Memphis in 08’, where his numbers were essentially identical in Memphis and LA (his reduced volume was offset by much higher efficiency in LA). If you look at just 09’ and 10’ his line is still 19/10/3.
very interesting :cheers:

[LeCroix]

26/12.5/4.4

LeBron’s Third option Kevin Love

LeBron’s sidekicks have better sidekicks than all of these guys

Thread: Oscar Robertson
You: LEBRON

Rest your stressed mind you will thank me tomorrow.

[warriorfan]

Thread: Oscar Robertson
You: LEBRON

Rest your stressed mind you will thank me tomorrow.

You made your entire account about LeBron and even photoshopped an avatar of him. Check yourself.

[Roundball_Rock]

very interesting :cheers:

:cheers:


LeBron’s Third option Kevin Love

Are you related to Kevin Love or something?

If you want to do what I did in the OP for third options go ahead. It would be interesting to compare 18'-20' Klay, Worthy, Bosh, Parish, 87' Kareem, Grant, Rodman, Love, Odom, Manu, etc.

[3ball]

Kyrie... 16-17' Playoffs... 25.5 on 47.2%

Pippen 96-98' Playoffs... 17.6 on 40.8%

Pippen 91-93' Playoffs... 20.3 on 48.0%



Kyrie 16-17' Finals... 28.0 on 46.0%

Pippen 6 Finals........ 19.0 on 42.5%



Kyrie was much better help then Pippen

[Roundball_Rock]

Statistics

Pippen (91’-98’) 20/7/6
Irving (15’-17’) 22/3/5

All-NBA 1st/2nd Team Selections

Pippen (91’-98’) 5
Irving (15’-17’) 0

MVP finishes

Pippen: 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th
Irving: None (never received a MVP vote in career)

[RRR3]

Statistics

Pippen (91’-98’) 20/7/6
Irving (15’-17’) 22/3/5

All-NBA 1st/2nd Team Selections

Pippen (91’-98’) 5
Irving (15’-17’) 0

MVP finishes

Pippen: 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th
Irving: None (never received a MVP vote in career)
Bodybagged.

[3ball]

Statistics

Pippen (91’-98’) 20/7/6
Irving (15’-17’) 22/3/5

All-NBA 1st/2nd Team Selections

Pippen (91’-98’) 5
Irving (15’-17’) 0

MVP finishes

Pippen: 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th
Irving: None (never received a MVP vote in career)

Pippen is overrated and Kyrie underrated, hence the accolade disparity, and massive statistical edge for Kyrie:

Kyrie... 16-17' Playoffs... 25.5 on 47.2%
Pippen 96-98' Playoffs... 17.6 on 40.8%
Pippen 91-93' Playoffs... 20.3 on 48.0%

Kyrie 16-17' Finals........ 28.0 on 46.0%
Pippen.. 6... Finals........ 19.0 on 42.5%


Kyrie was much better help then Pippen

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen is overrated and Kyrie underrated, hence the accolade disparity,

The problem for Kyrie is his own teams have more success with Spencer Dinwiddie, Terry Rozier, and Kemba Walker replacing him. He is overrated. No other player could have that trend and get a pass for it. As soon as he gets hurt or skips team his entire team collectively and all his teammates together magically play at a much higher level. We know this because Kyrie is one of the most fragile stars in history. How many times has he played 82 games?

With Pippen it was the opposite. With Pippen gone his teammates' production dipped across the board as did the wins.

[Doranku]

So let me get this straight.

-Oscar was one of the worst 2nd options comparatively while winning only one sidekick ring
-In 10 seasons for Cincinnati, the man won TWO playoff series. Two.
-Managed one ring in 4 seasons playing alongside a GOAT candidate in his prime

And a lot of people rank this guy top 10 all time?????? What???????

[Roundball_Rock]

So let me get this straight.

-Oscar was one of the worst 2nd options comparatively while winning only one sidekick ring
-In 10 seasons for Cincinnati, the man won TWO playoff series. Two.
-Managed one ring in 4 seasons playing alongside a GOAT candidate in his prime

And a lot of people rank this guy top 10 all time?????? What???????

He was 31/13/11 at his peak. That type of prime production is hard to ignore but point taken, though. Players left and right get penalized for a lack of team success but Oscar gets a pass, despite probably having the worst team success of any top 20 player. I think part of it is team success was not much of a factor in evaluating players until more recent times.

[Doranku]

He was 31/13/11 at his peak. That type of prime production is hard to ignore but point taken, though. Players left and right get penalized for a lack of team success but Oscar gets a pass, despite probably having the worst team success of any top 20 player. I think part of it is team success was not much of a factor in evaluating players until more recent times.

Sure, he was 31/13/11 at his peak. Those are impressive numbers, yeah... but his team lost in the first round to a 37 win team. Is that really THAT much more impressive than what Westbrook did in 2017 when he averaged 32/11/10 and also lost in the first round?

[Roundball_Rock]

Sure, he was 31/13/11 at his peak. Those are impressive numbers, yeah... but his team lost in the first round to a 37 win team. Is that really THAT much more impressive than what Westbrook did in 2017 when he averaged 32/11/10 and also lost in the first round?

Legit point.

[HoopsNY]

What you're doing is similar to what you did in the other thread. In order to downplay MJ, you big up the supporting cast he had, which is fine. But then when challenged with the contributions that actually took place in comparison to other greats who left their team, like Wilt or KD, you proceeded to then downplay the same supporting cast that you were previously propping up. I have a feeling you will do the same with what I am about to say.

When people bring up Oscar Robertson with Kareem, they do not do so to operate as if Oscar was as good as he was in his Cincinnati days. The criticism with Kareem is that his rings were more of a product of Magic Johnson and the Showtime Lakers than it was of him. In the case of the Big O, then Kareem's only championship outside of LA comes with Robertson.

The season before Robertson comes to Milwaukee, he averages 25.3 ppg on 18.4 attempts. He then joins Milwaukee and needless to say, his fg attempts drop with a young Kareem at the helm to just 14.7 fg attempts. As a result, his ppg drop as well as his fth attempts since Big O was a slasher. This didn't make him any less effective of an offensive weapon in the championship season, he shot nearly 50%.

The Big O goes onto lead the league in playoff assists per game with nearly 9 a game. And in the NBA finals, he was a key support to Kareem, putting up 23.5 ppg, 9.5 assists, on 53% shooting.

Outside of that season, Robertson begins to decline as he was at the tail end of his prime, and needless to say, championship success finishes as well. Kareem doesn't achieve any kind of success until Magic arrives.

Kareem's first year with LA, they didn't even make the playoffs. And this was with a prime Kareem. The next few seasons he doesn't make the finals and struggles at times to get out of the first round. Then Magic comes along and things take a drastically different turn.

Now in my eyes, this doesn't diminish from Kareem's legacy in any way, but you can't hide the fact that his success is tied to other GOAT players as well. Big O was still one of the best players in the league in 1970-71, and Magic as well, Magical.

[Roundball_Rock]

What you're doing is similar to what you did in the other thread. In order to downplay MJ

This thread is about Oscar relative to other sidekicks. What does it have to do with MJ? :roll:


. The criticism with Kareem is that his rings were more of a product of Magic Johnson and the Showtime Lakers than it was of him.

It is a dumb criticism. What did those guys win without him again?


In the case of the Big O, then Kareem's only championship outside of LA comes with Robertson.

Yup, the go to move with every legend: then when the same question is asked about MJ you all whine. :rolleyes: What did MJ win without Pippen?


Outside of that season, Robertson begins to decline as he was at the tail end of his prime

He had been declining for a while before that. 71' just happened to be his last all-NBA season.


Kareem doesn't achieve any kind of success until Magic arrives.

He did make a conference finals between Oscar and Magic (a 5 year window) that isn't "no success." This was with a roster that was gutted to acquire him in a trade the previous year.

Unfortunately, the Lakers' second and third best players got hurt in the WCF? MJ was down his second option once (Pip concussed after 1 minute) and lost, then lost again in the "migraine" game which MJ stans spent all of last week complaining about. Kareem was down his #2 and #3. According to people like you, his poor injury luck makes him a lesser player. Bizarre "thinking."

You also omitted that Kareem made it to Game 7 of the NBA finals with Oscar putting up 13/4/6. Not exactly all-time great help to get that from your second best player.


Then Magic comes along and things take a drastically different turn.

The irony...

[HoopsNY]

This thread is about Oscar relative to other sidekicks. What does it have to do with MJ?

You're Roundball. You live to diminish Mj's success. C'mon. You think you made this post without that in mind?


It is a dumb criticism. What did those guys win without him again?

I think it should be the other way around. Who were the most pivotal players in their run between 1979-1991? I think Magic gets that nod first before anyone else. This doesn't mean Kareem wasn't important, but I feel he complimented Magic more than Magic complimented him.


Yup, the go to move with every legend: then when the same question is asked about MJ you all whine. What did MJ win without Pippen?

We've had this discourse before. You know I don't whine. I clearly have acknowledged Pippen's contribution to the Bulls' success. But just like Pippen, I don't think he was the main contributor.

[Roundball_Rock]

You live to diminish Mj's success

No one even mentioned MJ in this thread until you. Even 3ball didn't. :lol


You think you made this post without that in mind?

This is what happens when MJ stans only go into MJ and Pippen threads. The thread about Oscar Robertson comes from...a discussion about Oscar Robertson's role as a sidekick to Kareem (in that case ironically raised by LeBron stans, your archrivals du jour). Crazy, isn't it?


Who were the most pivotal players in their run between 1979-1991?

Kareem clearly was from 1980-1982. Then from 1983-1986 it was 1a/1b. It wasn't Magic until 1987. Magic did not even get a MVP vote in 1980 yet people 40 years later say he, not the league MVP, was the best player on the team.


You know I don't whine.

So why no answer? If we are asking what Kareem did without various teammates why not apply the same standard to others? Kareem did a lot without Magic. 5 MVPs, 1 championship, 2 NBA finals, 4 conference finals, best player in the NBA for a decade, taking a 29 win expansion team to 56 wins and the conference finals as a rookie, etc.

This is where the 1-9 meme comes from. The guys whose player went 1-9 without his best teammate are the ones going around diminishing other legends (who actually won without their best teammate). Usually it is LeBron but it is always raised with any other legend. It seems to be the sole basis for MJ stans thinking he is GOAT over Kareem: that Kareem won "only" 1 ring without Magic (irony is lost on MJ stans--1 ring versus 1 playoff win). We never hear how MJ was actually a better player.

[LeCroix]

You made your entire account about LeBron and even photoshopped an avatar of him. Check yourself.
But i am his fan numb for brains. Are you?

[3ball]

.
Kyrie... 16-17' Playoffs... 25.5 on 47.2%
Pippen 96-98' Playoffs... 17.6 on 40.8%
Pippen 91-93' Playoffs... 20.3 on 48.0%

Kyrie 16-17' Finals........ 28.0 on 46.0%
Pippen.. 6... Finals........ 19.0 on 42.5%




The problem for Kyrie is his own teams have more success with Spencer Dinwiddie, Terry Rozier, and Kemba Walker replacing him. He is overrated. No other player could have that trend and get a pass for it. As soon as he gets hurt or skips team his entire team collectively and all his teammates together magically play at a much higher level. We know this because Kyrie is one of the most fragile stars in history. How many times has he played 82 games?

With Pippen it was the opposite. With Pippen gone his teammates' production dipped across the board as did the wins.

In 2018, Kyrie was leading the league juggernaut before he got hurt, and he was the EASY pick for mvp at that point - those Celtics pounced on the league like the 15' Warriors and Kyrie was the clear MVP - otoh, Pippen never led a juggernaut or was the easy pick for MVP

We all know how it turned out - Kyrie's injury and Hayward's chemistry-killing upon Kyrie's return doomed Kyrie's time in Boston

Bruh, just look at the stats (above) - Kyrie was a much better basketball player than Pippen

[LeCroix]

Kyrie... 16-17' Playoffs... 25.5 on 47.2%

Pippen 96-98' Playoffs... 17.6 on 40.8%

Pippen 91-93' Playoffs... 20.3 on 48.0%



Kyrie 16-17' Finals... 28.0 on 46.0%

Pippen 6 Finals........ 19.0 on 42.5%



Kyrie was much better help then Pippen

#2 option opponent stats?

Kyrie vs Curry (2017 Finals)
Bafoon vs 2x MVP
Flat eather vs round
Idiot vs elite

[LeCroix]

No one even mentioned MJ in this thread until you. Even 3ball didn't. :lol



This is what happens when MJ stans only go into MJ and Pippen threads. The thread about Oscar Robertson comes from...a discussion about Oscar Robertson's role as a sidekick to Kareem (in that case ironically raised by LeBron stans, your archrivals du jour). Crazy, isn't it?



Kareem clearly was from 1980-1982. Then from 1983-1986 it was 1a/1b. It wasn't Magic until 1987. Magic did not even get a MVP vote in 1980 yet people 40 years later say he, not the league MVP, was the best player on the team.



So why no answer? If we are asking what Kareem did without various teammates why not apply the same standard to others? Kareem did a lot without Magic. 5 MVPs, 1 championship, 2 NBA finals, 4 conference finals, best player in the NBA for a decade, taking a 29 win expansion team to 56 wins and the conference finals as a rookie, etc.

This is where the 1-9 meme comes from. The guys whose player went 1-9 without his best teammate are the ones going around diminishing other legends (who actually won without their best teammate). Usually it is LeBron but it is always raised with any other legend. It seems to be the sole basis for MJ stans thinking he is GOAT over Kareem: that Kareem won "only" 1 ring without Magic (irony is lost on MJ stans--1 ring versus 1 playoff win). We never hear how MJ was actually a better player.

Hoop NY is a 3ball alternate acct i think

[Roundball_Rock]

In 2018, Kyrie was leading the league juggernaut before he got hurt,

:biggums: The Celtics did better that year, like the next year, without Kyrie. LVP, not MVP (getting to Game 7 of the ECF). The reason is obvious: the offense operates better without him and his teammates all perform markedly better without him. Irving is a flashy player who reduces the production of the team as a whole while putting up empty individual numbers. We saw the same trend in Brooklyn this year.


#2 option opponent stats?


Notice he keeps crediting Irving with fictional MVP votes? Voters get 5 votes and in his entire career not one voter has deemed him worthy of even a 5th place vote.

Meanwhile Pippen was a legitimate MVP candidate in 94' without MJ and had another top 5 finish alongside MJ in 96'.

[3ball]

#2 option opponent stats?




96' Finals

Pippen'....... 15 on 34% (2nd option)
Schrempf... 16 on 50% (3rd option)


16' Finals

Kyrie... 27 on 47% (2nd option)
Curry... 22 on 44% (MVP)



Again, Kyrie is better than Pippen.. all the stats and facts say so

[Roundball_Rock]

Kyrie 24/5/7
Kemba 21/4/5

You would think Kyrie was better...but:

Celtics with Kyrie: 37-30 (45 win pace)
Celtics with Kemba: 33-17 (54 win pace)

So what happened? The answer lies in the surrounding players. With Kyrie the cancer gone Tatum, Brown blossomed and the whole team played better. Just like the Nets do better with Dinwiddie than with Kyrie. It is the same thing: Kyrie pads his own stats but kills his teammates' productivity.

[Roundball_Rock]

As to Pippen, he had all-time great impact on his team. You will see 96' Pippen right behind 06' Kobe on here. You won't see Kyrie anywhere near this because Kyrie over the past five seasons has averaged ranking 7th--on his own team--in net on/off impact.

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Jordan-v-GOAT-on-off-results-91-93-50g.png

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen's leadership, impact on the W-L column and his teammates

Look at the W-L record of his teams with him and without him.

1988-1989 Bulls: 4-5 without him (44%), 43-30 with him (59%)
Over 82 games: on pace for 36 wins without him, 48 wins with him
Impact: +12

1993-94 Bulls: 4-6 without him (40%), 51-21 with him (71%)
Over 82 games: on pace for 33 wins without him, 58 wins (#1 seed) with him
Impact: +25

1997-98 Bulls: 26-12 without him (68%), 36-8 with him (82%)
Over 82 games: on pace for 56 wins without him (#3 seed), 67 wins (best record in the league) with him
Impact: +11

56 wins would have meant that game 7 of the ECF, which the Bulls squeaked by in, would have been played in Indiana and not Chicago...

2000-01 Portland: 15-7 without him (68%), 35-25 with him (58%)
Over 82 games: 56 wins without him (tied with LA for #2 in the West), 48 wins with him (#8 seed)
Impact: -8

2001-02 Portland: 10-12 without him (45%), 39-21 with him (65%)
Over 82 games: 37 wins without him (#10 in the West), 53 wins with him (#5 in the West)
Impact: +16

2002-03 Portland: 12-13 without him (48%), 38-19 with him (67%)
Over 82 games: 39 wins without him (#11 in the West), 55 wins with him (#4 in the West)
Impact: +13

Portland was a top 5 team in the league with him in 2002 and 2003 (all those teams were in the WC then) but barely top 20 without him. When he left they went to the lottery (just like Chicago and Houston).

How about a better comparison, one that is more direct? In 1997-98 Scottie played only 14 games (missing 35) before the all-star break. Let's look at the stats of the Bulls' top five scorers other than Pippen before and after the all-star break.

Toni Kukoc: 12.6 ppg on 45% shooting before the ASG, 14.4 on 46.4% after the ASG

Luc Longley: 11.1 ppg on 44.4% before the ASG, 12.8 ppg on 50% after the ASG

Ron Harper: 9.6 on 42.9% before the ASG, 8.8 on 46% after the ASG

Steve Kerr: 7.1 on 41.1% before the ASG, 8.0 on 50.7% after the ASG

And...dare I do it????

Michael Jordan: 28.9 on 45.0% before the ASG, 28.5 on 48.9% after the ASG

Gee, maybe this was all just a string of coincidences? Let's try one more, Bill Wennington. 3.3 ppg on 41.4% before the ASG, 3.7 on 45.9% after the ASG.

So we have two clear trends: 1) Pippen's teams won more when he played and 2) his teammates performed significantly better when he was there alongside them.

[3ball]

Pippen's leadership, impact on the W-L column and his teammates

Look at the W-L record of his teams with him and without him.

1988-1989 Bulls: 4-5 without him (44%), 43-30 with him (59%)
Over 82 games: on pace for 36 wins without him, 48 wins with him
Impact: +12

1993-94 Bulls: 4-6 without him (40%), 51-21 with him (71%)
Over 82 games: on pace for 33 wins without him, 58 wins (#1 seed) with him
Impact: +25

1997-98 Bulls: 26-12 without him (68%), 36-8 with him (82%)
Over 82 games: on pace for 56 wins without him (#3 seed), 67 wins (best record in the league) with him
Impact: +11

56 wins would have meant that game 7 of the ECF, which the Bulls squeaked by in, would have been played in Indiana and not Chicago...

2000-01 Portland: 15-7 without him (68%), 35-25 with him (58%)
Over 82 games: 56 wins without him (tied with LA for #2 in the West), 48 wins with him (#8 seed)
Impact: -8

2001-02 Portland: 10-12 without him (45%), 39-21 with him (65%)
Over 82 games: 37 wins without him (#10 in the West), 53 wins with him (#5 in the West)
Impact: +16

2002-03 Portland: 12-13 without him (48%), 38-19 with him (67%)
Over 82 games: 39 wins without him (#11 in the West), 55 wins with him (#4 in the West)
Impact: +13

Portland was a top 5 team in the league with him in 2002 and 2003 (all those teams were in the WC then) but barely top 20 without him. When he left they went to the lottery (just like Chicago and Houston).

How about a better comparison, one that is more direct? In 1997-98 Scottie played only 14 games (missing 35) before the all-star break. Let's look at the stats of the Bulls' top five scorers other than Pippen before and after the all-star break.

Toni Kukoc: 12.6 ppg on 45% shooting before the ASG, 14.4 on 46.4% after the ASG

Luc Longley: 11.1 ppg on 44.4% before the ASG, 12.8 ppg on 50% after the ASG

Ron Harper: 9.6 on 42.9% before the ASG, 8.8 on 46% after the ASG

Steve Kerr: 7.1 on 41.1% before the ASG, 8.0 on 50.7% after the ASG

And...dare I do it????

Michael Jordan: 28.9 on 45.0% before the ASG, 28.5 on 48.9% after the ASG

Gee, maybe this was all just a string of coincidences? Let's try one more, Bill Wennington. 3.3 ppg on 41.4% before the ASG, 3.7 on 45.9% after the ASG.

So we have two clear trends: 1) Pippen's teams won more when he played and 2) his teammates performed significantly better when he was there alongside them.

Wow, look at Pippen's impact as a 9 ppg player in 00-01' Portland and 88-89' Chicago... Sorry, but 9 ppg isn't a good #2 and this horrible play cost championships to the 88-90' bulls and 2000-2002 Portland.. only Pippen gets away with 9 ppg.... why couldn't he average 20 instead of 9?.. bulls and Portland would've won if he did.. again, only Pippen gets away with 9 ppg (or 12 or whatever it was)

But the reality is that he sucked without the triangle.. completely sucked... His stats without the triangle show this clearly - look at his stats in Houston lol... Pippen was a joke and 3rd fiddle to the corpses of Barkley and hakeem

[coastalmarker99]

Wow, look at Pippen's impact as a 9 ppg player in 00-01' Portland and 88-89' Chicago... Sorry, but 9 ppg isn't a good #2 and this horrible play cost championships to the 88-90' bulls and 2000-2002 Portland.. only Pippen gets away with 9 ppg.... why couldn't he average 20 instead of 9?.. bulls and Portland would've won if he did.. again, only Pippen gets away with 9 ppg (or 12 or whatever it was)

But the reality is that he sucked without the triangle.. completely sucked... His stats without the triangle show this clearly - look at his stats in Houston lol... Pippen was a joke and 3rd fiddle to the corpses of Barkley and hakeem

Charles was by far the rockets best player. Not his fault no one could guard Shaq and glen rice. Those weren't his matchups. Rockets prob win game 1 and the series if fish and glen rice don't play like curry and Klay that opening game. Was a heartbreaking loss.

Also, don't forget Pippens 0 FG game in game 2. He still got 40 min when he shoulda sat his ass on the bench as Charles looked like he came to play. Scottie was also ass in g4. Chucked it like Stackhouse Charles in the playoffs went 24/14/4

Scottie went 18/12/6, not bad, then you see oh he shot 33% from the field

Hakeem averaged 13/7

And also Scottie Pippen benched himself during a playoff game when the last play of the game was drawn up for Toni Kukoc. Then Kuckoc went on to hit a buzzer-beater. this is one of the biggest bitch moves in NBA history but I don't see it talked about much. I can't think of any other star player (even the weird ones like Kyrie Irving) pulling something like Pippen did imagine if MJ, Kobe or Lebron did that. Heck even lesser stars like Kyrie would get shit for that. How did Pippen get a pass for this? and Also Pippen was a diva in 1998 and in 1999.

[GimmeThat]

Wow, look at Pippen's impact as a 9 ppg player in 00-01' Portland and 88-89' Chicago... Sorry, but 9 ppg isn't a good #2 and this horrible play cost championships to the 88-90' bulls and 2000-2002 Portland.. only Pippen gets away with 9 ppg.... why couldn't he average 20 instead of 9?.. bulls and Portland would've won if he did.. again, only Pippen gets away with 9 ppg (or 12 or whatever it was)

But the reality is that he sucked without the triangle.. completely sucked... His stats without the triangle show this clearly - look at his stats in Houston lol... Pippen was a joke and 3rd fiddle to the corpses of Barkley and hakeem

I may have got it now, it's not so much that you don't understand basketball but your deep desire of watching men looking for ways of touching other men.

[GimmeThat]

Big O joining the Bucks was like a man met a girl, now ready to meet the family. He went in there thinking all family members ought to resemble some sort of sanity, only to realize the girl being there quietly nodding her head acknowledging half of the familes are indeed corpses and she didn't want to say anything but to keep playing on.

can't have hope and change if you believe in fate so it seems

[3ball]

I may have got it now, it's not so much that you don't understand basketball but your deep desire of watching men looking for ways of touching other men.
Apparently, 6 rings makes Pippen's 9 ppg seeming like 25 ppg to Jordan-haters lol

Only Pippen can average 9 ppg and have people calling him a great player in Portland and Houston, or Chicago

Pippen sucked... The stats are on my side on this... Not your side (the delusional side that ignores numbers and facts)

[warriorfan]

Love stats Pre-LeBron - 26/13/2/59% TS

Bosh stats Pre-LeBron - 24/11/2/59% TS

Pau stats Pre-Kobe - 19/8/3/59% TS

It's safe to say that Kevin Love and Chris Bosh were better than Pau Gasol before they joined with their new teams

LeBron needed Bosh and Love as third options when he won

Kobe had Paul Gasol as a second option when he won

[WhiteKyrie]

Love stats Pre-LeBron - 26/13/2/59% TS

Bosh stats Pre-LeBron - 24/11/2/59% TS

Pau stats Pre-Kobe - 19/8/3/59% TS

It's safe to say that Kevin Love and Chris Bosh were better than Pau Gasol before they joined with their new teams

LeBron needed Bosh and Love as third options when he won

Kobe had Paul Gasol as a second option when he won


I had Bosh, Love, and Gasol as roughly the same quality of player. Having those prototype number 2 sidekicks as you’re third option truly is a special treat.

[3ball]

Krause was begging Seattle to take Pippen for Kemp in 1997


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujax-DrRkaY&t=14m45s


So that's how we should all think about pip - the B side in a trade for Kemp, aka less than kemp... Kemp is ranked about 95 all-time and that's how we should think about pip... a little below kemp

[GimmeThat]

Apparently, 6 rings makes Pippen's 9 ppg seeming like 25 ppg to Jordan-haters lol

Only Pippen can average 9 ppg and have people calling him a great player in Portland and Houston, or Chicago

Pippen sucked... The stats are on my side on this... Not your side (the delusional side that ignores numbers and facts)

97-98 Rockets
41-41 Off Rtg 8th Def Rtg 25th

98-99 Rockets
31-19 Off Rtg 5th Def Rtg 15th

98-99 TrailBlazers
31-15 Off Rtg 8th Def Rtg 6th

99-00 TrailBlazers
59-23 Off Rtg 3rd Def Rtg 5th

now at least we know what it means when you say you watched the Jordan Bulls winning those championships. Your mind was thinking what it would be like to have a grown mans sperm all filled up in your body and your mind. And you probably swallowed all the other mens piss like a urinal on your quest to diminish Scottie Pippen.

And here you are, regurgitating those none sense back to a world who told you "you better not let me tell you I told you so"

[warriorfan]

I had Bosh, Love, and Gasol as roughly the same quality of player. Having those prototype number 2 sidekicks as you’re third option truly is a special treat.

Definitely.

[HoopsNY]

He had been declining for a while before that. 71' just happened to be his last all-NBA season.

Which also happens to be his only ring with Milwaukee, which you like to conveniently leave out of the conversation.


This is what happens when MJ stans only go into MJ and Pippen threads. The thread about Oscar Robertson comes from...a discussion about Oscar Robertson's role as a sidekick to Kareem (in that case ironically raised by LeBron stans, your archrivals du jour). Crazy, isn't it?

If you want to keep calling me an "MJ Stan," then go right ahead. I'm on other threads too if you haven't noticed.


Kareem clearly was from 1980-1982. Then from 1983-1986 it was 1a/1b. It wasn't Magic until 1987. Magic did not even get a MVP vote in 1980 yet people 40 years later say he, not the league MVP, was the best player on the team.

Kareem while playing with Magic: 20.6-7.6-2.8 with 0.7 stls and 2.0 blks
Magic while playing with Kareem: 19.5-7.4-11.2 with 2.0 stls, 0.4 blks

Playoff numbers in the same stretch:

Magic: 19.0-7.7-12.4 with 2.1 stls, 0.4 blks
Kareem: 21.4-7.5-2.8 with 0.9 stls, 2.2 blks

Awards during the same stretch:

Finals MVPs

Magic: 3
Kareem: 1

League MVPs

Magic: 2
Kareem: 1

Stop it brah. Magic > Kareem on the Showtime Lakers

[GimmeThat]

Which also happens to be his only ring with Milwaukee, which you like to conveniently leave out of the conversation.



If you want to keep calling me an "MJ Stan," then go right ahead. I'm on other threads too if you haven't noticed.



Kareem while playing with Magic: 20.6-7.6-2.8 with 0.7 stls and 2.0 blks
Magic while playing with Kareem: 19.5-7.4-11.2 with 2.0 stls, 0.4 blks

Playoff numbers in the same stretch:

Magic: 19.0-7.7-12.4 with 2.1 stls, 0.4 blks
Kareem: 21.4-7.5-2.8 with 0.9 stls, 2.2 blks

Awards during the same stretch:

Finals MVPs

Magic: 3
Kareem: 1

League MVPs

Magic: 2
Kareem: 1

Stop it brah. Magic > Kareem on the Showtime Lakers

how exactly is it possible for someone to be on the same team, while posting that many assists and outshines other players? could it be possible he makes others around him suicidal.

[Stephonit]

Kareem while playing with Magic: 20.6-7.6-2.8 with 0.7 stls and 2.0 blks
Magic while playing with Kareem: 19.5-7.4-11.2 with 2.0 stls, 0.4 blks

Playoff numbers in the same stretch:

Magic: 19.0-7.7-12.4 with 2.1 stls, 0.4 blks
Kareem: 21.4-7.5-2.8 with 0.9 stls, 2.2 blks

Awards during the same stretch:

Finals MVPs

Magic: 3
Kareem: 1

League MVPs

Magic: 2
Kareem: 1

Stop it brah. Magic > Kareem on the Showtime Lakers

What years are we talking about here 1980 to 1989? So Kareem age 32 to 41 vs. Magic age 20 to 29. We're including FMVPs especially the one that was taken from Kareem and given to Magic because the network wanted someone to receive the award on air?

[HoopsNY]

What years are we talking about here 1980 to 1989? So Kareem age 32 to 41 vs. Magic age 20 to 29. We're including FMVPs especially the one that was taken from Kareem and given to Magic because the network wanted someone to receive the award on air?

Even if we consider that, Magic > Kareem from 1979-1983. Magic averaged a triple double during the playoffs during that stretch, including averaging more rebounds than Kareem. And keep in mind, Magic had to share the ball with Norm Nixon, otherwise his numbers would be MUCH higher.

[GimmeThat]

Even if we consider that, Magic > Kareem from 1979-1983. Magic averaged a triple double during the playoffs during that stretch, including averaging more rebounds than Kareem. And keep in mind, Magic had to share the ball with Norm Nixon, otherwise his numbers would be MUCH higher.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/los-angeles-lakers/magic-johnson-16235/cash-earnings/

interesting you noted those 4 years in which Magic was on a contract that made around 460,000 per, while he averaged around a little more than 1 mil later in his career, with the highest being at 3 per.

same time when his rebounding dropped it seem

[Soundwave]

I mean, is 31/32 really that old?

Oscar was 5th in the NBA in scoring the season prior, that's a top end player. It's not like he was a washed up has been when he went to the Bucks.

The reality is basically every player in the so-called "top 10" played with other really, really great players, Kareem is no exception to that.

[GimmeThat]

I mean, is 31/32 really that old?

Oscar was 5th in the NBA in scoring the season prior, that's a top end player. It's not like he was a washed up has been when he went to the Bucks.

The reality is basically every player in the so-called "top 10" played with other really, really great players, Kareem is no exception to that.

I would say they got the Kelley blue book value, which was ironically based on the price differences of farm lands and homes

[Psileas]

So let me get this straight.

-Oscar was one of the worst 2nd options comparatively while winning only one sidekick ring
-In 10 seasons for Cincinnati, the man won TWO playoff series. Two.
-Managed one ring in 4 seasons playing alongside a GOAT candidate in his prime

And a lot of people rank this guy top 10 all time?????? What???????

People back then acknowledged more that basketball is a team game and most of them didn't judge GOATs that much according to their titles (except Bill Russell, because of what an outlier 11 titles as The Man is), let alone their "x out of y" finals records. Oscar was viewed as the Golden Standard of measuring all-around excellence and was clearly more separated by his guard peers than Westbrook was.
Btw, yes, Oscar is a proof of why playing in an 8-10 team league isn't as much of a walk in the park as many make it sound. It means that, if your team isn't very talented, you're doomed to fail to enter playoffs for multiple seasons and win very few series in your career. You're bound to win few series anyway, since rounds are less and sports science and medicine are also not good enough to keep you in prime form for as many seasons as it does for today's players. All this stuff severely deflate what Oscar could accomplish if he was born a couple of decades later. Don't ignore, however, that he was still a great playoff performer.

[HoopsNY]

This is where the 1-9 meme comes from. The guys whose player went 1-9 without his best teammate are the ones going around diminishing other legends (who actually won without their best teammate). Usually it is LeBron but it is always raised with any other legend. It seems to be the sole basis for MJ stans thinking he is GOAT over Kareem: that Kareem won "only" 1 ring without Magic (irony is lost on MJ stans--1 ring versus 1 playoff win). We never hear how MJ was actually a better player

And the guy who does the exact opposite doesn't like when people say Magic was better than Kareem on LA, never won a ring without a GOAT sidekick, and even missed the playoffs twice during his prime.

[Soundwave]

Charles was by far the rockets best player. Not his fault no one could guard Shaq and glen rice. Those weren't his matchups. Rockets prob win game 1 and the series if fish and glen rice don't play like curry and Klay that opening game. Was a heartbreaking loss.

Also, don't forget Pippens 0 FG game in game 2. He still got 40 min when he shoulda sat his ass on the bench as Charles looked like he came to play. Scottie was also ass in g4. Chucked it like Stackhouse Charles in the playoffs went 24/14/4

Scottie went 18/12/6, not bad, then you see oh he shot 33% from the field

Hakeem averaged 13/7

And also Scottie Pippen benched himself during a playoff game when the last play of the game was drawn up for Toni Kukoc. Then Kuckoc went on to hit a buzzer-beater. this is one of the biggest bitch moves in NBA history but I don't see it talked about much. I can't think of any other star player (even the weird ones like Kyrie Irving) pulling something like Pippen did imagine if MJ, Kobe or Lebron did that. Heck even lesser stars like Kyrie would get shit for that. How did Pippen get a pass for this? and Also Pippen was a diva in 1998 and in 1999.

If a top NBA player did stuff like that today, social media would erupt and demand blood.

Not to mention the 2000 playoffs where the Blazers basically had the most infamous NBA 4th quarter meltdown in history and Pippen did dick all to stop it from happening. 0/3 and 0 points in the 4th quarter as the Lakers somehow snatched victory from the jaws of defeat.

Pippen was a fantastic player, but he also by equal measure of being thought of as a no.2, gets a pass for a lot of things too that a defacto franchise superstar would get murdered for.

[Roundball_Rock]

Which also happens to be his only ring with Milwaukee

And? He won 1 ring, made 2 NBA finals, 3 conference finals in a couple years in Milwaukee while winning 4 MVPs. You all act like he was racked up losing season after losing season...


Kareem while playing with Magic: 20.6-7.6-2.8 with 0.7 stls and 2.0 blks

The agenda is transparent: using numbers from 42 year old Kareem in the sample to try to deceive people who don't understand the stages of career both players were in during the 80's.

You didn't answer the question. Here it is:

Magic without Kareem: 0 championship, 1 NBA finals, 1 MVP.
Kareem without Magic: 1 championship, 2 NBA finals, 4 WCF, 5 MVPs.


So Kareem age 32 to 41 vs. Magic age 20 to 29. We're including FMVPs especially the one that was taken from Kareem and given to Magic because the network wanted someone to receive the award on air?

Yup, all to diminish KAJ.


And keep in mind, Magic had to share the ball with Norm Nixon, otherwise his numbers would be MUCH higher.

So Magic was "the man" but sharing his primary function with...Norm Nixon? :facepalm


I mean, is 31/32 really that old?

No but 13/4/6 is really old (Bucks get to G7 of the finals). Oscar remained an elite all-NBA player in 71', was still an all-star in 72' but fell off badly after that. The narrative that is spun is that Oscar was Oscar the entire time.



The reality is basically every player in the so-called "top 10" played with other really, really great players, Kareem is no exception to that.

Yup--but we have some who act like Kareem was an exception. This "who had who" game is dumb for the reason you noted.


Not to mention the 2000 playoffs where the Blazers basically had the most infamous NBA 4th quarter meltdown in history and Pippen did dick all to stop it from happening

Yet he gets no credit for leading them there at age 34 as a diminished player (anyone who watched back then could see he was no longer the same athlete)? Or for the fourth quarter comeback down 15 he led
in the NBA finals in 92' in...Portland (not shown in the doc)?

He led Portland in assists, rebounds, steals, and minutes and was only 3 PPG off from the scoring lead in the playoffs. On top of that, he was the team leader and their best defender. Prime Pippen easily wins a ring with Portland.

[Soundwave]

And? He won 1 ring, made 2 NBA finals, 3 conference finals in a couple years in Milwaukee while winning 4 MVPs. You all act like he was racked up losing season after losing season...



The agenda is transparent: using numbers from 42 year old Kareem in the sample to try to deceive people who don't understand the stages of career both players were in during the 80's.

You didn't answer the question. Here it is:

Magic without Kareem: 0 championship, 1 NBA finals, 1 MVP.
Kareem without Magic: 1 championship, 2 NBA finals, 4 WCF, 5 MVPs.



Yup, all to diminish KAJ.



So Magic was "the man" but sharing his primary function with...Norm Nixon? :facepalm



No but 13/4/6 is really old (Bucks get to G7 of the finals). Oscar remained an elite all-NBA player in 71', was still an all-star in 72' but fell off badly after that. The narrative that is spun is that Oscar was Oscar the entire time.



Yup--but we have some who act like Kareem was an exception. This "who had who" game is dumb for the reason you noted.



Yet he gets no credit for leading them there at age 34 as a diminished player (anyone who watched back then could see he was no longer the same athlete)? Or for the fourth quarter comeback down 15 he led
in the NBA finals in 92' in...Portland (not shown in the doc)?

He led Portland in assists, rebounds, steals, and minutes and was only 3 PPG off from the scoring lead in the playoffs. On top of that, he was the team leader and their best defender. Prime Pippen easily wins a ring with Portland.

It would've probably been nice then if Scottie could've hit even a single basket in that 4th quarter. He's the most experienced player there, he should have taken the reigns and spelled the team for at least a couple of possessions, settled them down.

That Blazers team was good, lots of players in their prime if you insert them into the lineup win a title probably. Vince Carter in his prime or past it probably wins a title if you put him on that team in that same situation (up 20+ points and just needing to hold off a team for one quarter), so what.

When it mattered and they desperately needed some one to step up and take control of a situation, he couldn't do it. He was able to score at other times in the series by your own admission, but nada when they really badly needed it.

[Roundball_Rock]

It would've probably been nice then if Scottie could've hit even a single basket in that 4th quarter. He's the most experienced player there, he should have taken the reigns and spelled the team for at least a couple of possessions.

He did exactly what you describe when they were facing elimination in Game 5. Unfortunately, he hurt his wrist late in that game and his shot was off for the remainder of the series. So it is a bad look but the correct basketball decision when you are shooting poorly to give it to other players. Besides, the offense as operated got them up 15 in the first place. They likely didn't realize it was too late until it was too late.

The Lakers were the better team. 67 wins against 59 and 2 superstars against 0 for Portland. The funny thing is if Portland was in the East they would have made the finals and Pippen would have gotten credit for "making the finals."


That Blazers team was good

They were the second best team and lost to the best team. It happens all the time.


Vince Carter in his prime or past it probably wins a title if you put him on that team in that same situation

Yes, because he has led his teams to so much playoff success, right?

[Soundwave]

He did exactly what you describe when they were facing elimination in Game 5. Unfortunately, he hurt his wrist late in that game and his shot was off for the remainder of the series. So it is a bad look but the correct basketball decision when you are shooting poorly to give it to other players. Besides, the offense as operated got them up 15 in the first place. They likely didn't realize it was too late until it was too late.

The Lakers were the better team. 67 wins against 59 and 2 superstars against 0 for Portland. The funny thing is if Portland was in the East they would have made the finals and Pippen would have gotten credit for "making the finals."



They were the second best team and lost to the best team. It happens all the time.



Yes, because he has led his teams to so much playoff success, right?

I notice you don't want to touch the whole "not going into the game" episode ... what f**king player could do that today and it just be given a pass?

I've never seen anything like that since in any major team sport in a comparable situation (playoffs).

If any star player did something like that today, they would never, ever live it down.

[HoopsNY]

And? He won 1 ring, made 2 NBA finals, 3 conference finals in a couple years in Milwaukee while winning 4 MVPs. You all act like he was racked up losing season after losing season...

No I'm not "acting" like that. I'm simply showing you how your arguments against Jordan being 1-9 without Scottie are fine, but somehow similar arguments don't work for Kareem, like missing the playoffs 2 years in a row and ALSO never winning a chip without all-time great players Dandridge/Robertson & Magic/Worthy/Wilkes/Nixon.


The agenda is transparent: using numbers from 42 year old Kareem in the sample to try to deceive people who don't understand the stages of career both players were in during the 80's.

I didn't, I used numbers from the entire stretch. As in 1979-1988. And then I isolated 1979-1983. Either way, Magic > Kareem.


Magic without Kareem: 0 championship, 1 NBA finals, 1 MVP.

Are you serious? So use an entire 2 full seasons AGAINST Magic where as Kareem had 10 to play with? How is that fair? You're beginning to sound like Nick Wright.


So Magic was "the man" but sharing his primary function with...Norm Nixon?

You're grossly underrating Nixon here. Not to mention, you put quotations around "the man" like Magic wasn't "the man."


The narrative that is spun is that Oscar was Oscar the entire time.

No, the narrative is that Kareem needed all-time GOAT players and the best supporting casts to win championships. How is that wrong?


He led Portland in assists, rebounds, steals, and minutes and was only 3 PPG off from the scoring lead in the playoffs. On top of that, he was the team leader and their best defender. Prime Pippen easily wins a ring with Portland.

It's just amazing to see you go to such lengths to defend Pippen but downplay Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, and Norm Nixon in the same breath.

[Roundball_Rock]

I notice you don't want to touch the whole "not going into the game" episode ... what f**king player could do that today and it just be given a pass?

That's because I agreed with you. There was a football star receiver who did it late in a game several years ago. I forgot who it was but they got roasted afterwards. That said, it has been forgotten. I don't remember who it was and neither do you (assuming you also watch the NFL). With Pippen we hear about it 26 years later. He did it to himself, though. It was incredibly dumb and his "protest" accomplished nothing. All he was asked to do was inbound the ball which was an easily replaceable task but the principle he violated was severe. Frankly he is somewhat lucky it happened after he had built up goodwill with his teammates and team. If it happened earlier in his career he would have been gone--and even with the goodwill they considered moving him as a consequence.

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm simply showing you how your arguments against Jordan being 1-9 without Scottie are fine

When did I say that? You keep deliberately mischaracterizing things. You were in a thread where I said MJ wins 1-2 rings even without Pippen. Where 1-9 comes up with me is applying the same logic you all do to Kareem, LeBron, Kobe, or fill in the blank.


never winning a chip without all-time great players Dandridge/Robertson & Magic/Worthy/Wilkes/Nixon

It is hard to win when you exclude an entire career. :lol


like missing the playoffs 2 years in a row

The context shows his value. Milwaukee was 3-14 (14 win pace) without him but Kareem elevated them to a 44 win pace. That is a 30 win difference. In LA, the team was gutted to trade for Kareem and went 40-42 (fourth in the West but missed the playoffs since they were third in their division). What happened in Kareem's second year in LA? The best record in the West and the WCF. Unfortunately, the Lakers' second and third best players got hurt in the playoffs.


So use an entire 2 full seasons AGAINST Magic where as Kareem had 10 to play with?

Magic had 3 years without Kareem. And? That is the only data we have to work with. You said it yourself: it was all Magic. So why did the winning stop when KAJ left?


You're grossly underrating Nixon here. Not to mention, you put quotations around "the man" like Magic wasn't "the man."

"The Man" doesn't share his best role with anyone, let alone Norm Nixon (not a HOF player).


the narrative is that Kareem needed all-time GOAT players and the best supporting casts to win championships. How is that wrong?

So did every legend. Even Soundwave admits it.


It's just amazing to see you go to such lengths to defend Pippen but downplay Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, and Norm Nixon in the same breath.

Another mischaracterization. I said Pippen was a diminished player by 2000, etc. Exactly what I am saying about Oscar.

Re Magic, I am simply saying what you all say about Pippen and sidekicks. You can't have it both ways.

[Soundwave]

The truth is any one of

Kareem
Jordan
LeBron
Magic
Shaq
Kobe
Bird
Wilt
Russell
Duncan

Who try to say with a straight face they didn't play with really amazing players in their career is full of sh*t.

All of the supposed top 10 players played with other really good players and had plenty of help. There's not one that can claim otherwise, certainly not Kareem, who outside of Shaq/Kobe is the only one with another top 10 teammate in Magic. The two Laker duos in particular, if either of them are gonna cry about not having help, spare me the kleenex please.

[Roundball_Rock]

The truth is any one of

Kareem
Jordan
LeBron
Magic
Shaq
Kobe
Bird
Wilt
Russell

Who try to say with a straight face they didn't play with really amazing players in their career is full of sh*t.

All of the supposed top 10 players played with other really good players and had plenty of help. There's not one that can claim otherwise, certainly not Kareem, who outside of Shaq/Kobe is the only one with another top 10 teammate in Magic.

Agreed, with one caveat: West arguably is top 10 all-time which would encompass Wilt along with Kareem, Shaq, and Kobe.

It should be noted Kareem was 32 (33 by the playoffs) when he got Magic. He spent a full decade without him.

It also is dumb to keep saying who these guys had without asking the corresponding question about their opponents. For Kareem, for example, he faced 4 HOF on Boston with an old Oscar and Dandridge (so the other side had more HOF players). These weren't borderline HOF guys either. Havlicek, arguably top 20 all-time, and Cowens who won a MVP. I think it speaks volumes when you see people talk about who a player had while omitting the opposition's roster and "supporting cast." Why the need to conceal relevant information?

[Soundwave]

Agreed, with one caveat: West arguably is top 10 all-time which would encompass Wilt along with Kareem, Shaq, and Kobe.

It should be noted Kareem was 32 (33 by the playoffs) when he got Magic. He spent a full decade without him.

It also is dumb to keep saying who these guys had without asking the corresponding question about their opponents. For Kareem, for example, he faced 4 HOF on Boston with an old Oscar and Dandridge (so the other side had more HOF players). These weren't borderline HOF guys either. Havlicek, arguably top 20 all-time, and Cowens who won a MVP. I think it speaks volumes when you see people talk about who a player had while omitting the opposition's roster and "supporting cast." Why the need to conceal relevant information?

Then what's all the b*tching about? They all played with enough talent in their careers to win multiple championships with.

Kareem is certainly not near the bottom of the list for talent he had over his career to play with either. The 80s Lakers were basically an All-Star team and I guess he had to settle for "just Oscar Robertson" in the 70s. Boo hoo. I don't feel for any of the top 10 players, none of them has any case for saying they didn't have enough help, maybe for portions of their career fine, but overall all these guys were eating good for large portions of their career.

[HoopsNY]

The context shows his value. Milwaukee was 3-14 (14 win pace) without him but Kareem elevated them to a 44 win pace. That is a 30 win difference. In LA, the team was gutted to trade for Kareem and went 40-42 (fourth in the West but missed the playoffs since they were third in their division). What happened in Kareem's second year in LA? The best record in the West and the WCF. Unfortunately, the Lakers' second and third best players got hurt in the playoffs.


But you're still failing to realize that he still missed the playoffs, twice, in the heart of his prime. I'm not saying those years characterize his entire career. They clearly don't. But if you're going to use the 1-9 tactic, then you can't just easily absolve Kareem from criticism, especially something as large as this.


Magic had 3 years without Kareem. And? That is the only data we have to work with. You said it yourself: it was all Magic. So why did the winning stop when KAJ left?

He had 2 full seasons. He then retired and returned after 4 seasons. The circumstances are NOT equal. You're comparing 2 full seasons and one 30 game season after a 4 year layoff due to HIV to 10 prime seasons. It doesn't work both ways, sorry.


"The Man" doesn't share his best role with anyone, let alone Norm Nixon (not a HOF player).

If you think that Magic wasn't "the man" in those years, then I don't know what to tell you. And nice attempt at diminishing Nixon's contributions in those years by pointing out that he's not a HOF player. Keep in mind that my original point was to highlight that he took away possessions from Magic. I see that you don't respect Magic. You can't even admit that he was the Lakers' best player during their title runs between 1979-1989.


So did every legend. Even Soundwave admits it.

Not really. Kobe won with Gasol. Duncan won with nobody great, including David Robinson. Jordan won with Pippen. Hakeem won with Clyde. Lebron won with Kyrie. Dirk won with Marion. Isiah won with Dumars.

Kareem won titles with legitimate GOAT players and arguably the greatest supporting cast in NBA history. That has to count for something.

[HoopsNY]

Another mischaracterization. I said Pippen was a diminished player by 2000, etc. Exactly what I am saying about Oscar.

Pippen in 2000 was nowhere near the player Oscar was in 1970-71.


Re Magic, I am simply saying what you all say about Pippen and sidekicks. You can't have it both ways.

The pot calling the kettle black.

[Roundball_Rock]

Then what's all the b*tching about? They all played with enough talent in their careers to win multiple championships with.

The origin of the thread was people (in this case LeBron stans) saying Kareem had Oscar and Magic. The OP puts Oscar in context. He had Oscar but not that Oscar people think about, especially after 71'.

The issue of help comes up non-stop in basketball discussions these days. ISH, social media, you name it. We agree that all the top 10 players had great help but many people don't.


he still missed the playoffs

He missed the playoffs with a 14 win team. What a shock? Who wouldn't? He then missed it with a top 4 record in his conference with a team that was gutted to acquire him. These are indictments?


you're going to use the 1-9 tactic

Yet another misrepresentation.


He had 2 full seasons.

He had what he had 3 seasons. We can't wave a wand and give him more seasons with Kareem.


If you think that Magic wasn't "the man" in those years, then I don't know what to tell you. And nice attempt at diminishing Nixon's contributions in those years by pointing out that he's not a HOF player.

So which is it? Was he "the man" or was he sharing duties with a much inferior player? Magic is the GOAT PG and sharing those duties with Norm Nixon. Why would "the man" be splitting that work?

Magic did not even get a MVP vote in 1980. Meanwhile Kareem was league MVP (a record 6th MVP) but people 40 years later are claiming Magic was "the man."


I see that you don't respect Magic. You can't even admit that he was the Lakers' best player during their title runs between 1979-1989.

Because I know history. He was their best player from 1987-1991. From 1983-1986 they were 1a/1b. From 1980-1982 Kareem was clearly the better player.

I have Magic 8th all-time. That is hardly "not respecting him." I just know he was 18/8/7 when he came into the league, not the Magic that won 3 MVPs starting in 87' (in other words, 7 years later).


Kobe won with Gasol. Duncan won with nobody great, including David Robinson. Jordan won with Pippen. Hakeem won with Clyde. Lebron won with Kyrie. Dirk won with Marion. Isiah won with Dumars.

Duncan won with Robinson, Parker, Manu, Kawhi. He had multiple HOF players on his team literally his entire career.

You also ignore the corresponding question. You never say a single word about what the opposition roster was. Why do you conceal this information? Is it because you know context doesn't help the narrative you are spinning?


Kareem won titles with legitimate GOAT players

Oscar was not playing at a "GOAT" level in Milwaukee. The OP speaks for itself.

The "help" argument by MJ stans is incredibly dumb because MJ is the only top 10 player who had zero team success without his best teammate. Yet we are supposed to examine every other legend by that measure. Let's do it:

Kareem without Magic: 1 championship, 2 NBA finals, 4 WCF, 5 MVPs,
Jordan without Pippen: 0 championships, 0 NBA finals, 0 ECF, 0 MVPs, 1 playoff game win

See how dumb it is to fight on this terrain for Mike?


Pippen in 2000 was nowhere near the player Oscar was in 1970-71.

I meant 73' and 74'.

[HoopsNY]

He missed the playoffs with a 14 win team. What a shock? Who wouldn't? He then missed it with a top 4 record in his conference with a team that was gutted to acquire him. These are indictments?

No, they're not an indictment. They're points of criticism. Everyone has them.


Magic did not even get a MVP vote in 1980. Meanwhile Kareem was league MVP (a record 6th MVP) but people 40 years later are claiming Magic was "the man."

Because he was the man, meaning a GOAT level player. Furthermore, they played together for more than one year. 1979-80 was his rookie year.


Because I know history. He was their best player from 1987-1991. From 1983-1986 they were 1a/1b. From 1980-1982 Kareem was clearly the better player.

This type of analysis is biased. Kareem being "better" (debatable) matters for only 2-3 years, despite the fact that they played 10 years together.


Duncan won with Robinson, Parker, Manu, Kawhi. He had multiple HOF players on his team literally his entire career.

The point wasn't about "HOF" players. The point was about winning with GOAT players. Duncan won in 1999 and 2003 without any HOF-like contributions.


You also ignore the corresponding question. You never say a single word about what the opposition roster was. Why do you conceal this information? Is it because you know context doesn't help the narrative you are spinning?

Because that doesn't always matter.

Duncan beat Kobe and Shaq.
Hakeem beat Stockton and Malone.
Dirk beat Wade-Bosh-Lebron.
The Pistons beat Shaq-Kobe-Malone-Payton.
Kawhi beat Steph-Draymond-Klay.
Rick Barry beat Unseld and Hayes.

Your previous point was to refute what I was saying about Kareem playing with GOAT players. Your counter was everyone won with those types of players. I proved otherwise. Your retort now is competition from the opposing team, yet there are examples that prove that this doesn't mean a person can't win a chip when the opposing team is stacked.


Oscar was not playing at a "GOAT" level in Milwaukee. The OP speaks for itself.

Again, the contention isn't about Oscar's 4 years in total. It's the fact that Kareem won a chip with a GOAT level player, which includes 1971 (Oscar). A main criticism is that he needed a great assist man and couldn't win without one. I don't really see this is as a criticism, but now you're operating like Jordan fans who don't want to acknowledge Pippen.

[Roundball_Rock]

They're points of criticism.

Yes, and the only criticism we ever see about KAJ is team related. They can't find anything about KAJ the player. Another reason why he is the GOAT.


Because he was the man

He was not "the man", which refers to the best player, until 1987 when KAJ was 39.


Kareem being "better" (debatable) matters for only 2-3 years

It matters because they won 2 rings in those three years where Kareem was clearly better, despite being 32-35 years old.


Duncan won in 1999 and 2003 without any HOF-like contributions.

He got more than 13/4/6, didn't he?


Because that doesn't always matter.

Sure it does. You can't assess team strength without assessing the opposition's strength. This isn't tennis.


Your retort now is competition from the opposing team

You are concealing this information because you know KAJ consistently faced equal or greater amount of HOF players on the other side, unlike some legends.


Again, the contention isn't about Oscar's 4 years in total.

Sure it is. The (dumb) argument is Kareem had Magic and Oscar. Negate what he did in those 14 seasons and what is left? See, Kareem is a fraud!

What these idiots, usually MJ stans, don't grasp is Kareem even under that arbitrary set up won 2 MVPs and made it to 2 conference finals. That is still far better than what Jordan did without Pippen.


A main criticism is that he needed a great assist man and couldn't win without one

6-8 assists isn't "great." They exist on almost every championship team.

It is desperate cherry picking. You could do the same with anyone. Kobe couldn't win without high efficiency big men. Shaq needed shooting guards. Jordan needed a point forward and an elite defender at power forward. LeBron needed a strong guard and a perennial all-star power forward as his third guy. Go on down the list. What did West win without Wilt? Durant without having the GOAT shooters next to him?

[3ball]

.
Jordan


https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-05-2020/L1pcT7.gif



Lebron


https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-05-2020/ZbR8ps.gif




In the 2018 Playoffs, Lebron shot 53.9% on 23 shot attempts - but 4 more shot attempts cratered his efficiency to 41% in 2015 - that was the only year he had an MJ volume/load.

So he can't shoot well enough at the high volume required from the Bulls' #1 option - only MJ could shoot well at high volume, or be effective at high volume (command doubles)...

MJ's volume and efficiency combination is unmatched - no one is remotely close - he has 4 championship runs at 25+ fga and 45%

[Roundball_Rock]

How many threads are you going to spam the same thing? We aren't even talking LeBron here.

[3ball]

How many threads are you going to spam the same thing? We aren't even talking LeBron here.

It's all related because MJ's weak sidekick (much weaker than Oscar) caused the Bulls to need ridiculous volume/efficiency combo from the #1 option, that only MJ can provide... <--- that's why he's goat.. we just solved it right there - only MJ could shoot efficiently at high volume required (goat scorer)

For example, we know that teammates played mostly to capacity alongside MJ, so lebron would need the same volume that MJ showed in that previous chart - but that requires a different style and skillset that he lacks - his chart shows that he isn't capable of 25 fga and 45% shooting, which MJ needed for 4 rings

[Roundball_Rock]

Wilt is the GOAT scorer.

[3ball]

Wilt is the GOAT scorer.

Not in playoffs:

1) Jordan... 33.5


122) Wilt.... 22.0




Or regular season:

1) Jordan 30.1
2) Wilt 30.0



So no

Btw, MJ is the only 30-point guy for his career, and the only 30/5/5 guy (goat all-round)

[Roundball_Rock]

That is because Wilt was able to dominant in different roles. MJ was only a scorer and could function in only one role his entire career. If MJ was asked to score 13 ppg and focus on defense and rebounding MJ loses most of his value.

Plus we can't take MJ's averages at face value with him retiring 3 times. No one else had the benefit of taking 2 or 3 years off at a time to get fresh legs.

[3ball]

That is because Wilt was able to dominant in different roles. MJ was only a scorer and could function in only one role his entire career. If MJ was asked to score 13 ppg and focus on defense and rebounding MJ loses most of his value.

Plus we can't take MJ's averages at face value with him retiring 3 times. No one else had the benefit of taking 2 or 3 years off at a time to get fresh legs.

Except MJ led the bulls in assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Scottie and assisted on the most bulls field goals for both 3-peats (led in assist % for 91-93' and 96-98' playoffs)

So MJ led his team in passing more than wilt, and was considered his team's best defender (led Pippen in dpoy votes every year)

Again, Pippen relieved MJ in zero categories (goat scoring, equal assists, more dpoy votes, and team enforcer)

[HoopsNY]

He was not "the man", which refers to the best player, until 1987 when KAJ was 39.

Magic until the end of 1987: 19.1-11.0-7.5 with 0.5blks-2.1stls
Kareem until the end of '87: 22.6-8.2-3.2 with 2.2 blks-0.8 stls

Advanced Stats

Magic: 23.5 PER-21.4 WS/48-7.0 BPM-47.6 VORP
Kareem: 23.0 PER-19.7 WS/48-4.9 BPM-37.5 BPM

Playoffs

Magic: 19.0-12.5-8.4 with 0.5 blks & 2.2 stls
Kareem: 24.2-8.4-3.3 with 1.0 stls & 2.6 blks

Playoffs Advanced

Magic: 22.9 PER-21.3 WS/48-7.8 BPM-11.8 VORP
Kareem: 22.7 PER-18.7 WS/48-5.5 BPM-8.1 VORP

Magic: 3 Finals MVPs
Kareem: 1 Finals MVP

Not even close. Magic was the architect, the engineer, the best player on the Lakers during the 80s. You're stifling your conscience and nothing you say proves anything.

[HoopsNY]

Jordan without Pippen: 0 championships, 0 NBA finals, 0 ECF, 0 MVPs, 1 playoff game win

Give me a break. Jordan won the MVP in 1988 with a rookie Pippen who started 0 games. Pippen being present on that team is a non-factor, especially considering Jordan's success that particular season.

[Roundball_Rock]

Too much trolling from MJ stans in this thread. The thread was a fine discussion until the MJ stan trolling.

1986 MVP voting: Magic 3rd (205), Kareem 5th (135). Wilkins was 2nd with 407 and Bird with 765. Magic was 26 in his peak and Kareem 38 and they were still neck and neck in MVP voting. Yet Magic was "the man", even though his own coach said Kareem was the #1 option until 1987. :roll:

[HoopsNY]

Too much trolling from MJ stans in this thread. The thread was a fine discussion until the MJ stan trolling.

1986 MVP voting: Magic 3rd (205), Kareem 5th (135). Wilkins was 2nd with 407 and Bird with 765. Magic was 26 in his peak and Kareem 38 and they were still neck and neck in MVP voting. Yet Magic was "the man", even though his own coach said Kareem was the #1 option until 1987. :roll:

Bro, this isn't trolling, this is you refusing to accept facts because you're a Kareem fan. I'm not particularly interested in either Kareem or Magic. But the fact remains is that Magic > Kareem during their tenure together.

Between 1979-1987, the years YOU prefer. Magic Johnson finished ahead of Kareem in MVP voting 6 times. Kareem finished ahead 2 times. Stop making excuses. This isn't some far left field opinion. It's a quite popular opinion that Magic was the best player of the 80s, and that includes being ahead of Kareem.

Excluding the last two years and Magic has the best regular season numbers, postseason numbers, Advanced regular season metrics, Advanced postseason metrics, and finished ahead of Kareem in MVP voting 6 times to Kareem's 2. It's not close.

[nizroc]

Too much trolling from MJ stans in this thread. The thread was a fine discussion until the MJ stan trolling.

1986 MVP voting: Magic 3rd (205), Kareem 5th (135). Wilkins was 2nd with 407 and Bird with 765. Magic was 26 in his peak and Kareem 38 and they were still neck and neck in MVP voting. Yet Magic was "the man", even though his own coach said Kareem was the #1 option until 1987. :roll:

Just for the record, while it is impressive that Kareem played at a high level into his late thirties, it’s not really relevant here. Magic>Kareem during the 80s.

[Roundball_Rock]

:coleman:

1980: Kareem 1st (147 votes, Dr. J second with 31.5). Magic gets 0 votes (Dan Roundfield got 2 votes). Idiots on the internet 40 years later say Magic led the Lakers to the championship.
1981: Kareem 3rd, Magic 11th (3rd among Lakers-Wilkes ahead of Magic). So Magic is "the man" but 3rd on his own team in MVP voting.
1982: Magic 8th (67 votes), Kareem 10th (31 votes). Both were non-factors so disingenuous to count this as a vote of confidence for Magic.
1983: Magic 3rd, Kareem 10th. Magic finally is a factor in MVP voting in year four.
1984: Magic 3rd, Kareem 4th. Kareem magically goes from 10th to 4th with the same numbers.
1985: Magic 2nd, Kareem 4th. 2nd-4th in the same range behind Bird who got almost as many votes as Magic, Kareem, and Moses combined.
1986: Magic 3rd, Kareem 5th.

So Magic is the golden child of the NBA along with Bird, Magic is in his prime yet a 34-38 year old Kareem is finishing right with him in MVP? Magic is supposed to be top 5 all-time but can't shake off an ancient player? The only available conclusion: Kareem must be the GOAT. Who else could do this at that age with that type of mileage? :bowdown:

The question should be why Magic wasn't crushing an ancient Kareem in this voting with the media wind at his back. The NBA needed Magic and Bird to "save" it. Kareem wasn't good for business.

[Roundball_Rock]

Just for the record, while it is impressive that Kareem played at a high level into his late thirties, it’s not really relevant here. Magic>Kareem during the 80s.

That isn't the question. The question is specific parts of the 80's, in particular 1980-1982 when the Lakers won their first 2 championships of the 80's. Sure Magic by 1987 graduated to be the #1 option when Kareem was 39. It isn't surprising that he eventually did so.

Here is what Kareem did in the 1980's: 1 MVP, 6 all-NBA, 5 top 5 MVP finishes, 10 all-star selections. 21/8/3/2 in the regular season and 21/8/3/2 in the playoffs.

If Kareem never played in the 70's he would still be a top 15-20 all-time player. Now, let's compare KAJ from ages 32-42 to other legends...

[nizroc]

That isn't the question. The question is specific parts of the 80's, in particular 1980-1982 when the Lakers won their first 2 championships of the 80's. Sure Magic by 1987 graduated to be the #1 option when Kareem was 39. It isn't surprising that he eventually did so.

Here is what Kareem did in the 1980's: 1 MVP, 6 all-NBA, 5 top 5 MVP finishes, 10 all-star selections. 21/8/3/2 in the regular season and 21/8/3/2 in the playoffs.

If Kareem never played in the 70's he would still be a top 15-20 all-time player. Now, let's compare KAJ from ages 32-42 to other legends...

Was it not your assertion that Magic became better than Kareem in 87? That’s what I’m responding to. Comparing the totalities of their respective careers is different. I’m saying that data supports Magic> Kareem during the 1980s.

[Roundball_Rock]

Was it not your assertion that Magic became better than Kareem in 87? That’s what I’m responding to. Comparing the totalities of their respective careers is different. I’m saying that data supports Magic> Kareem during the 1980s.

No. What I said was Kareem was the best player from 1980-1982. From 1983-1986 they were 1a/1b. From 1987 on Magic was better. It is possible that Magic was better by 1983 but irrelevant since the margin was indistinguishable during those years. For all the Magic talk, Magic did not win his first MVP in 1987. There is a reason for that.

What we do know is the offense ran through KAJ until 1987. Riley said it himself.

[HoopsNY]

So Magic is the golden child of the NBA along with Bird, Magic is in his prime yet a 34-38 year old Kareem is finishing right with him in MVP? Magic is supposed to be top 5 all-time but can't shake off an ancient player? The only available conclusion: Kareem must be the GOAT. Who else could do this at that age with that type of mileage?

But now you're changing the parameters of this discourse. The debate isn't whether Kareem is the GOAT. The debate is concerning who was the best player on the Lakers from 1979-1989. The answer is, unequivocally, Erving Magic Johnson.


The question should be why Magic wasn't crushing an ancient Kareem in this voting with the media wind at his back. The NBA needed Magic and Bird to "save" it. Kareem wasn't good for business.

Simple, Kareem was still a great player. But who denied that? You're changing the argument now. If you concede to the point that Magic was doing better than Kareem in MVP voting, then fine. But my point is when we consider everything in totality, it is clear. Again, this isn't foreign to the NBA or its fan base. It's widely known.

[HoopsNY]

No. What I said was Kareem was the best player from 1980-1982. From 1983-1986 they were 1a/1b. From 1987 on Magic was better. It is possible that Magic was better by 1983 but irrelevant since the margin was indistinguishable during those years. For all the Magic talk, Magic did not win his first MVP in 1987. There is a reason for that.

What we do know is the offense ran through KAJ until 1987. Riley said it himself.

Nice back pedal. Magic still finished ahead of Kareem in MVP voting 6 times during that stretch. And he posted better regular season and playoff numbers, as well as posting better advanced metrics in both the regular season and playoffs. Stop ignoring facts because it challenges your Kareem GOAT narrative.

Not that I agree, but you do realize that you can still hold the Kareem being GOAT narrative while admitting Magic > Kareem during their tenure, right?

[Roundball_Rock]

Enough trolling. MJ stans wreck every thread. All this over a pathetic effort to conflate 42 year old Kareem with 32 year old Kareem was one composite, because Magic doesn't hold up to a legit yearly comparison.

[HoopsNY]

Enough trolling. MJ stans wreck every thread. All this over a pathetic effort to conflate 42 year old Kareem with 32 year old Kareem was one composite, because Magic doesn't hold up to a legit yearly comparison.

You can't respond so you resort to saying I'm "trolling." Yet I've spent the time to actually present real arguments, statistics, accolades, and analysis. You're behaving as if I'm just yelling and throwing out misinformation. Carry on!

[nizroc]

No. What I said was Kareem was the best player from 1980-1982. From 1983-1986 they were 1a/1b. From 1987 on Magic was better. It is possible that Magic was better by 1983 but irrelevant since the margin was indistinguishable during those years. For all the Magic talk, Magic did not win his first MVP in 1987. There is a reason for that.

What we do know is the offense ran through KAJ until 1987. Riley said it himself.

Problem is, the data doesn’t really support them being equals from 83-86.

[dankok8]

Problem is, the data doesn’t really support them being equals from 83-86.

What data? They were practically neck and neck through that period in most advanced stats, split the FMVP's. They had different roles on the team. Kareem was the go-to scorer in the clutch and post defender and Magic was the floor general who ran the offense. Both were immensely important and irreplaceable. Pat Riley said before the start of the 1986-1987 season that Magic has to take the mantle and become the sole leader of the team, that Cap was getting too old. It was only in that season that the Lakers became Magic's team and Kareem became his sidekick.

[nizroc]

What data? They were practically neck and neck through that period in most advanced stats, split the FMVP's. They had different roles on the team. Kareem was the go-to scorer in the clutch and post defender and Magic was the floor general who ran the offense. Both were immensely important and irreplaceable. Pat Riley said before the start of the 1986-1987 season that Magic has to take the mantle and become the sole leader of the team, that Cap was getting too old. It was only in that season that the Lakers became Magic's team and Kareem became his sidekick.

I am NOT saying Abdul Jabbar wasn’t important, or that he was some third wheel scrub or that Magic was 10 miles ahead of him statistically during that time. He doeshave the edge statistically, though. And yes, I know Abdul Jabbar was older, but I’m talking about the totality of the 80s.

[Roundball_Rock]

What data? They were practically neck and neck through that period in most advanced stats, split the FMVP's. They had different roles on the team. Kareem was the go-to scorer in the clutch and post defender and Magic was the floor general who ran the offense. Both were immensely important and irreplaceable. Pat Riley said before the start of the 1986-1987 season that Magic has to take the mantle and become the sole leader of the team, that Cap was getting too old. It was only in that season that the Lakers became Magic's team and Kareem became his sidekick.

That is what I don't get about all this. We have it straight from the coach. Kareem was called "Captain" for a reason.

People ignore Norm Nixon. While Nixon was there he averaged only 1 less assist than Magic and we never hear about Nixon.


Problem is, the data doesn’t really support them being equals from 83-86.

What data? As Dan noted, they were consistently neck and neck in MVP voting. Can you name another duo where that was the case? Where there is a "sidekick" there is a clear delta in MVP voting, whether that was Jordan/Pippen, Shaq/Kobe, Kareem/Magic early on, Bird/McHale (during the same time frame), and so on. How do you explain that as being caused by anything other than being 1a/1b?

[Uncle Drew]

Statistics

Pippen (91’-98’) 20/7/6
Irving (15’-17’) 22/3/5

All-NBA 1st/2nd Team Selections

Pippen (91’-98’) 5
Irving (15’-17’) 0

MVP finishes

Pippen: 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th
Irving: None (never received a MVP vote in career)

:roll:

Poor 3ball

[HoopsNY]

That is what I don't get about all this. We have it straight from the coach. Kareem was called "Captain" for a reason.

People ignore Norm Nixon. While Nixon was there he averaged only 1 less assist than Magic and we never hear about Nixon.



What data? As Dan noted, they were consistently neck and neck in MVP voting. Can you name another duo where that was the case? Where there is a "sidekick" there is a clear delta in MVP voting, whether that was Jordan/Pippen, Shaq/Kobe, Kareem/Magic early on, Bird/McHale (during the same time frame), and so on. How do you explain that as being caused by anything other than being 1a/1b?

That data that clearly shows that for their 10 year stretch together, Magic was the superior player. Even when we eliminate the last two years, it's still Magic > Kareem. Better regular season performances, better postseason performances, better advanced metrics in both regular season and postseason, and finished ahead in MVP voting considerably more. You can keep trying to focus on a 3 year stretch. Their tenure together was much longer than that.

[dankok8]

I am NOT saying Abdul Jabbar wasn’t important, or that he was some third wheel scrub or that Magic was 10 miles ahead of him statistically during that time. He doeshave the edge statistically, though. And yes, I know Abdul Jabbar was older, but I’m talking about the totality of the 80s.

Kareem was better in 1980 and 1981, they were neck and neck from 1982-1986, and then Magic was better from 1987-1989. In that last period, the gap was huge because Kareem really dramatically declined his last two seasons so for the totality of the 80's Magic was better. However, you have to look at the picture year by year or else you're not analyzing their stature on the Lakers correctly.

[Roundball_Rock]

However, you have to look at the picture year by year or else you're not analyzing their stature on the Lakers correctly.

Exactly. What they are doing is relying heavily on KAJ's decline during his age 39-41 seasons (42 by the end of his final).

[LostCause]

That data that clearly shows that for their 10 year stretch together, Magic was the superior player. Even when we eliminate the last two years, it's still Magic > Kareem. Better regular season performances, better postseason performances, better advanced metrics in both regular season and postseason, and finished ahead in MVP voting considerably more. You can keep trying to focus on a 3 year stretch. Their tenure together was much longer than that.

What's hilarious is this thread was made and used to show Pippen was better than many of the players listed because his advanced metrics eclipsed them
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?479442-Scottie-Pippen-s-Peak-Compared-to-other-1990s-Stars-(Advanced-Stats)

Yet even though Magic has better advanced metrics pretty much across the board in both regular season and playoffs than Kareem in 82, 84, 85 and then not being really close from 86 onwards. Suddenly those metrics don't matter and it's about who Riley said was "cap" lol

[Whoah10115]

The agenda is transparent: using numbers from 42 year old Kareem in the sample to try to deceive people who don't understand the stages of career both players were in during the 80's.





I'm sorry I don't think this is fair. I don't know about other threads, but in this thread he's being reasonable. And more important is that he didn't use 42 year old Kareem stats against Kareem. He said, specifically, that in their time together Magic was the better player.

Truth be told, that's impossible to argue against. Sure, I could listen to someone say that Kareem's best years during that time were better than Magic's. I can accept someone telling me that Kareem should never have lost that first Finals MVP. And I'll even skate past the 1A/1B scenario, as I think Magic was clearly better by like 82. But certainly, during their time together, Kareem cannot be argued above Magic.

That's not a criticism. It adds to his legacy. If LeBron is still playing in 5 years and is an all-star, but let's say not top 10 anymore, and he's still playing with Davis and Davis is the best player in the world...well, give LeBron credit. More than likely that will suggest that, overall in their time together, Davis was better.

That's all he did there. You're a good poster but you're too focused on Kareem as the GOAT and this thread was made to point out that he didn't have as much help in Milwaukee as others had in their winning years.

Also, Norm Nixon played for the Lakers in Magic's first four seasons. Magic is 6'9, so first issue isn't about him being the man in sharing, but about him not playing PG as Nixon was a borderline all-star who then made an all-star team and another with the Clippers two years later, and is 6'2. So Magic was sharing the ball and playing the 3, which is bigger because Magic is undoubtedly the greatest playmaker ever.

The second issue is that those were Magic's first four seasons. And, on top of that, not his prime. If anything it shows that Magic was able to adapt. As he did in Game 6. As he did throughout his career.

[Roundball_Rock]

And more important is that he didn't use 42 year old Kareem stats against Kareem. He said, specifically, that in their time together Magic was the better player.

Which is the same thing: aggregate their decade long stats to convey the (false) impression that Magic was always better.


It adds to his legacy. If LeBron is still playing in 5 years and is an all-star, but let's say not top 10 anymore, and he's still playing with Davis and Davis is the best player in the world...well, give LeBron credit. More than likely that will suggest that, overall in their time together, Davis was better.

That is a great analogy. So if the Lakers win the championship this year LeBron will be the primary reason for it. Yet, because in the next 5-6 year window Davis will overall outproduce LeBron, does that negate the fact that LeBron was better in 2020? What does their production in 2025 tell us about who was better in 2020?


The second issue is that those were Magic's first four seasons.

Agreed--that is why we can't blend the decade into one!


Nixon was a borderline all-star who then made an all-star team and another with the Clippers two years later, and is 6'2. So Magic was sharing the ball, which is bigger because Magic is undoubtedly the greatest playmaker ever.

The GOAT playmaker sharing the ball. That tells me he wasn't at his best yet, which you kind of alluded to.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What's hilarious is this thread was made and used to show Pippen was better than many of the players listed because his advanced metrics eclipsed them
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?479442-Scottie-Pippen-s-Peak-Compared-to-other-1990s-Stars-(Advanced-Stats)

Yet even though Magic has better advanced metrics pretty much across the board in both regular season and playoffs than Kareem in 82, 84, 85 and then not being really close from 86 onwards. Suddenly those metrics don't matter and it's about who Riley said was "cap" lol

Don't ignore this, Rockball :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Don't ignore this, Rockball :oldlol:

That wasn't why the Pippen thread was posted. For all the slobbing of the doc, think of what the discussion around here was circa the time of that post because of one comment made in the doc by PJ.

Stans like him don't realize you often don't know the results when you go into research and that interpretations differ. For example, I didn't realize LeBron would be as close to KAJ in top 5 MVP voting or that Kobe would be tied for 3rd before I looked it up (with an assist from LeCroix). As another example, I have a draft post on 90's sidekicks. Some will read it as Stockton>Pippen others Pippen>Stockton.

[warriorfan]

What's hilarious is this thread was made and used to show Pippen was better than many of the players listed because his advanced metrics eclipsed them
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?479442-Scottie-Pippen-s-Peak-Compared-to-other-1990s-Stars-(Advanced-Stats)

Yet even though Magic has better advanced metrics pretty much across the board in both regular season and playoffs than Kareem in 82, 84, 85 and then not being really close from 86 onwards. Suddenly those metrics don't matter and it's about who Riley said was "cap" lol

When agenda’s collide. :oldlol:








https://media.tenor.com/images/d6eb7c160a0b5a313fa495d38da1fdf3/tenor.gif

[WhiteKyrie]

When agenda’s collide. :oldlol:








https://media.tenor.com/images/d6eb7c160a0b5a313fa495d38da1fdf3/tenor.gif

:oldlol:

[LostCause]

That wasn't why the Pippen thread was posted

Interesting thing is that you make the argument for the thread yourself. From that thread:


So the 90s were an era where an Iggy player was a superstar and better than guys like Ewing, Drexler, Miller, Payton, etc.? It is funny how Pippen detractors never square that circle.

You flat out use it to claim Pippen is better than the bolded players. You defended that position here, citing the OP once again to back up that claim:


Exactly. You notice how he doesn't respond to the data in the OP? Yet he is always there to take a shot at Pippen :oldlol: .

Soundwave, what is your response to this:

Pippen: VORP 3rd, PER 4th, Box plus/minus 3rd, Win Shares 5th
Ewing: VORP 8th, PER 6th, Box plus/minus 10th, Win Shares 6th
Drexler: VORP 4th, PER 4th, Box plus/minus 4th, Win Shares 5th
Payton: VORP 9th, PER 8th, Box plus/minus 4th, Win Shares 3rd
Miller: VORP 8th, PER 16th, Box plus/minus 8th, Win Shares 6th



The value is it allows us to 1) compare across positions 2) quantify a player's ranking. You can't do either with traditional stats. How do you rank players who averaged 20/11/3, a player who was 22/7/5, or 12/4/9 with traditional stats?


This time the bolded is especially useful, because you make the argument why this comparison works to compare players (even across positions). I like your take on it so we'll go with that, so these advanced stats allow us to compare Magic/Kareem these years because as you listed, you can't do it with traditional stats. Based on them, Magic comes out better for the years listed

But I'm sure this is all just a sleight of hand, right?

[Roundball_Rock]

Interesting thing is that you make the argument for the thread yourself.

:oldlol: at this guy digging into multi-page threads because I am rattling him over his childhood hero worship.

The thread was posted because you had MJ stans marching across the internet saying Pippen was a scrub, never a top 5 player, never a top 10 player, etc. depending on how extreme the view. This was all because Phil Jackson said "he may have been the #2 player in the league" and insecure MJ stans, including in the media melted down.

The thread was to show the following:

1) Yearly rankings change. More than 5 players peaked in the top 5 and more than 10 in the top 10. One if the things MJ stans argued was yearly rankings were immutable: that Barkley was always better than Pippen, for example (to use a favorite example of theirs).
2) That Pippen compared favorably to the various players MJ stans always invoke. Not that he was "better" than all of them. The data set would not suppor that in and of itself and it was career peaks that did not allow for a year-by-year comparison.


Soundwave, what is your response to this:

Pippen: VORP 3rd, PER 4th, Box plus/minus 3rd, Win Shares 5th
Ewing: VORP 8th, PER 6th, Box plus/minus 10th, Win Shares 6th
Drexler: VORP 4th, PER 4th, Box plus/minus 4th, Win Shares 5th
Payton: VORP 9th, PER 8th, Box plus/minus 4th, Win Shares 3rd
Miller: VORP 8th, PER 16th, Box plus/minus 8th, Win Shares 6th

Soundwave and I go at it a lot. You excluded the context behind it (which you must know given your presence in every MJ/Pippen thread). Soundwave is one of the MJ stans who takes the position that basically every 90's star was better than Pippen. That was just one data set mentioned. In other contexts I raise things like MVP votes, all-NBA 1st selections, etc. The bottom line is no matter how you slice it Pippen was clearly more decorated than Payton, Miller, Kemp and probably more so than Ewing and Drexler (I haven't seen Pippen behind them in any all-time list). Pippen clearly was more decorated than them in the 1994-1996 time frame.

Of course he did not respond. That said, Soundwave is a respectable poster with integrity, even though we disagree.


This time the bolded is especially useful, because you make the argument why this comparison works to compare players (even across positions).

For the purposes of the OP. I can't stick my finger in the wind and make a ranking of those players, can I? I needed something objective that people could look at and compare.

In other contexts, such as 3balls comparison of Pippen and Irving (which again you have seen many times since you are in every such thread), I don't use those as the gold standards (which you are implying).

Your constant deceit and bad faith is tiresome. You aren't adding any value to these threads. Take notes from Soundwave. He can advocate for the same positions properly. I can't spend hours responding to your trolling and have threads derailed.

This was a fine discussion on Oscar until you and other insecure MJ stans showed up with trolling.

[LostCause]

:oldlol: at this guy digging into multi-page threads because I am rattling him over his childhood hero worship.

The fact you're trying desperately to divert to nonsense like that shows you're the one feeling rattled about this, but keep projecting lol


The thread was posted because you had MJ stans marching across the internet saying Pippen was a scrub, never a top 5 player, never a top 10 player, etc. depending on how extreme the view. This was all because Phil Jackson said "he may have been the #2 player in the league" and insecure MJ stans, including in the media melted down.

And? Why it was posted doesn't matter. What's relevant is WHAT was posted. You can get your feelings hurt and make a thread because you feel Kareem is being disrespected, but if your rational in that thread is contradictory you'll be called out on it. If this bothers you, that's really not my problem dude. Also:


2) That Pippen compared favorably to the various players MJ stans always invoke. Not that he was "better" than all of them.

Didn't say you said he was "better" than all of them. I said you used it to claim he was better than some of them, which you did. Don't twist arguments.


Soundwave and I....
Soundwave is...

Of course he did not respond. That said, Soundwave is a...

Soundwave this, Soundwave that :blah



For the purposes of the OP. I can't stick my finger in the wind and make a ranking of those players, can I? I needed something objective that people could look at and compare.

In other contexts, such as 3balls comparison of Pippen and Irving (which again you have seen many times since you are in every such thread), I don't use those as the gold standards (which you are implying).

Serious question, how old are you? You keep trying to paint this picture with the bolded. Why are you so desperate for that? You realize it does nothing for your points, right?

Also you're wrong. Never said you used advanced stats as the gold standard. I said you used them there to say he was better. Which you did, as proven. Based on that, you contradict yourself. It's that simple. Don't twist arguments


Your constant deceit and bad faith is tiresome. You aren't adding any value to these threads. Take notes from Soundwave. He can advocate for the same positions properly. I can't spend hours responding to your trolling and have threads derailed.

This was a fine discussion on Oscar until....showed up with trolling.

I simply pointed out your own bad faith arguments by showing how quickly you contradict yourself. Using your own logic (as I displayed) shows Magic was better in the years listed. If that's trolling to you, stop making weak arguments. My responses to this post was more sarcasm due to the nature of your response (Very emotionally charged & subversive). You're writing off my pointing out your own hypocrisy as trolling because you can't really respond to it. If you wanna save face, I'm fine with that. Won't press on the matter, but save this nonsense

Fact is you implied Pippen was better than certain players because his advanced metrics were better. You defended that, as shown. At that point doesn't matter what Soundwave said, your position was put forth on its own merits & contradicts your position here

Regardless, it all speaks for itself & the evidence is presented on its own. Keep melting down though lol

[LostCause]

I'd like to add I noticed some posters accused you of being 3ball. That honestly wouldn't surprise me lol

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ stans are funny: they spent years saying I was Fatal9 and accusing both of us of being closet Kobe stans. Now they seamlessly shifted to closet LeBron stans.


Why it was posted doesn't matter.

Sure it does. :oldlol: Maybe this is hard for you to grasp but there is presenting data aimed at a general audience and there is advocacy. The point of that OP was to provide some context and level set because we had MJ fans all over the internet going around saying Pippen was never an elite player (which you are aware of).

Many of my posts are aimed at people who were too young to have watched back then so are vulnerable to the blue smoke and mirrors we see from one large bloc of fans, hence the bitching from that bloc.


Didn't say you said he was "better" than all of them. I said you used it to claim he was better than some of them, which you did.

Mischaracterization of Soundwave because you ignore the context of the exchange.


Soundwave and I....
Soundwave is...

Of course he did not respond. That said, Soundwave is a...
Soundwave this, Soundwave that

Case in point. So the context is ignored, you go on a rant to, yet again, provide a deliberately misleading picture. I have to give you credit: you are somewhat skilled in weaving together a deceptive narrativebut it falls apart pretty easily.


I said you used them there to say he was better.

No, I did not. The comment was Pippen was considered a better player than those guys for several years. I made a similar comment in several threads (which you were in) so you know the context of the comment: Pippen was by any available measure (e.g., in several of the replies I posted all-NBA vote totals) considered at the time a better player than those players. If he sucks as much as MJ stans spent the entire week of Episode 2 saying, that speaks to the era. Of course since it is a bad faith argument the circle is never squared. If it were a good faith argument they would be forced to conclude Pippen was elite in a weak era.

[Roundball_Rock]

This is the entire exchange which he deceptively didn't post to make it seem like it was said in the context of the OP. This is what they do non-stop. :lol



His 3 straight years in the Finals (91, 92, 93) is unprecedneted for a #2 option


21/9/7/2/1 on 46% and goat tier Defense
Yeah the only thing that is comparable is early Magic, and he wasn't providing the defense Pippen was.


Pippen is an iguodala type of player.


So the 90s were an era where an Iggy player was a superstar and better than guys like Ewing, Drexler, Miller, Payton, etc.? It is funny how Pippen detractors never square that circle.

[Roundball_Rock]

As to the OP--which you notice he neglected to post as well--there is no bottom line value judgment made. I do not close by saying "this proves Pippen was awesome" or "Pippen was better than _____". I say: Whether you agree or disagree with the merit of any individual stat, there is value in comparing the relative peaks of each player across multiple stats. At most I say "Pippen compares well" to certain players.

The overarching context was people debating whether Pippen was #2, top 5, or top 10 at his peak. All this began because PJ said Pippen "may have been" #2 in 98'. MJ stans melted down and depending on the level of extremism said he was never top 5 or never top 10. This was to provide some overarching context for the out of control discussion. You cannot do a post regarding rankings with traditional stats.

We saw MJ stans react similarly to this thread's OP. As Woah understood, it was about Oscar. MJ stans being insecure as they are took it as an attempt to prop up Pippen because the data happens to make him look good (it does with Kobe too geniuses). So they project their insecurities everywhere where MJ or a teammate is mentioned.


There has been a lot of discussion of how high Pippen ranked among his peers at his peak. Ultimately that is a subjective judgement but here I am going to list advanced stats peaks for Pippen and his peers who people have posited as better (I did not include Jordan or Hakeem since they weren’t being debated). Whether you agree or disagree with the merit of any individual stat, there is value in comparing the relative peaks of each player across multiple stats.

Keep in mind players peak at different times. That has been lost in the discussion. There aren’t only five top 5 players in a given era. Moreover, not every player stays at that level an equal length of time. With these caveats, here is the data:

Pippen: VORP 3rd, PER 4th, Box plus/minus 3rd, Win Shares 5th
Ewing: VORP 8th, PER 6th, Box plus/minus 10th, Win Shares 6th
Drexler: VORP 4th, PER 4th, Box plus/minus 4th, Win Shares 5th
Payton: VORP 9th, PER 8th, Box plus/minus 4th, Win Shares 3rd
Barkley: VORP 4th, PER 2nd, Box plus/minus 2nd, Win Shares 2nd
Malone: VORP 1st, PER 1st, Box plus/minus 2nd, Win Shares 1st
Miller: VORP 8th, PER 16th, Box plus/minus 8th, Win Shares 6th
Wilkins: VORP 5th, PER 5th, Box plus/minus 7th, Win Shares 5th
Johnson: VORP 9th, PER 6th, Box plus/minus 8th, Win Shares 8th
Richmond: VORP 11th, PER 13th, Box plus/minus 19th, Win Shares 17th
Price: VORP 9th, PER 8th, Box plus/minus 6th, Win Shares 9th


Some observations:

*It is interesting how well Pippen compares to Ewing, Drexler, Payton, and Miller. These are players who Pippen detractors (aka Jordan stans) always praise.
*Malone consistently is the best of this group.
*Wilkins’ advanced stats suggest he is being underrated.

[Roundball_Rock]

Later in the thread (which like this thread took a dark turn as soon as MJ stans showed up). Note I turn to all-NBA voting to argue Pippen was top 5 those years--not VORP, BPM, or WS. Needless to say, LostCause didn't mention this.


No one in their right mind thinks on an individual non resume based level that Scottie was better than Barkley or Malone.


A typical sleight of hand: no one is saying he was. What we are saying is he was at his peak. "No one in their right mind..." Where is Barkley on these lists and why is Malone behind him 2 of his 3 peak years?

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1994

1) Pippen (forward) 94
2) Hakeem (center) 68
3) Malone (forward) 65
4) Stockton (guard) 56
5) Sprewell (guard) 29

Pippen crushed everyone in the voting. You can let Hakeem slide because he was at the same position as Robinson and that cost him a lot of votes. Robinson was considered on par with Hakeem at the time. However, look at Pippen's vote and compare that to the other forwards and guards. Karl Malone was a top 5 player for practically all of the 90's, right? Pippen crushed him 94-68 in the voting. No, Pippen playing SF and Malone PF was not a factor. All-NBA voting is done on a forward/center/guard basis. Several times in the 90's two PF's, especially Malone and Barkley, took the two forward spots on the first team.

A quick internet search revealed the following for his other peak seasons:


Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1995

1) Malone (F) 519
2) Robinson (C) 479
3) Pippen (F) 451
4) Stockton (G) 447
5) P. Hardaway (G) 394

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/12/sp...s-all-nba.html

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1996

1) Jordan (G) 113 (unanimous)
2) Pippen (F) 91
3) Hardaway (G) 90
4) Malone (F) 89
5) Robinson (C) 65

Since we know there were 113 voters Pippen received 81% of the vote. He got hurt during the final fifth of the season and his production declined so that surely cost him some votes. The margin between him and #3 and #4 would be greater if he didn't get hurt. Still, the guy gets hurt and averages 15 ppg for one-fifth of the season (21-22 ppg before that) and he still gets more votes than anyone not named Jordan.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/05/24/sp...tar-again.html

This is voting for the all-NBA team. Regarding the all-Defensive team, Pippen received the most votes in 1994. And in 1995. And in 1996. Yes, also in 1997. So to recap, these were his finishes during his peak:

All-NBA voting: 1st, 3rd, 2nd
All-Defensive voting: 1st, 1st, 1st

Scottie may never have been a top 5 player but if he wasn't he sure had a lot of people fooled at the time.

[warriorfan]

Roundball rock going round and round with nonsense blocks of text like

https://media.tenor.com/images/d6eb7c160a0b5a313fa495d38da1fdf3/tenor.gif

[Roundball_Rock]

Don't ignore this, Rockball :oldlol:

He lied. Are you surprised? :lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You posted a lot there. None of it refuted what that poster said though :oldlol:

Got caught bullshitting and now you're PISSED that you cant weasel your way out. Have some dignity and just admit it.

[Roundball_Rock]

You posted a lot there. None of it refuted what that poster said though :oldlol:


His entire (laughable) basis is this misleadingly presented quote absent the context of the reply (he slickly tried to imply it was in the OP):


So the 90s were an era where an Iggy player was a superstar and better than guys like Ewing, Drexler, Miller, Payton, etc.? It is funny how Pippen detractors never square that circle.

Where was it mentioned that he was better because of advanced stats? I made similar comments in other threads. Note the word "superstar" which refers to the commonly understood perception of the player at the time (not stats).

You are smarter than this:

*A: The thread mentions advanced stats.
*B: A poster says Pippen was equal to Iggy.
*C: Response: Pippen was better than various 90's stars, which using that logic implies the 90's were weak.

It does not follow that because A is the thread title that C was based on A. :lol The evidence of that is similar comments made in other threads. Further, when I later presented him as a top 5 player at his peak later in the thread in another reply I referred to all-NBA voting, not advanced stats. I know what I wrote and meant because I wrote them, not some slick troll.

He is a troll. He doesn't add anything to the actual discussion (has he said a word about Oscar, for example?). Why are you encouraging him?

[LostCause]

I'm not responding to that ridiculous 4-post meltdown

It's all good folks. Roundball didn't contradict himself, it was just a "sleight of hand"

[Roundball_Rock]

I literally had an entire thread dissing PER as flawed and biased (against ballhandlers). :lol Now supposedly I am using that same stat to say Pippen>particular players even though the quote in question mentions no stat. (According to this dumb logic, if I used it in a post it means I think it is gospel.)

The irony this OP does not use a single advanced stat. So if I consider it the be all end all, why didn't I use any in an OP days later?

I could go all day exposing this idiocy but we can't keep rewarding bad faith trolls whose whole purpose is to derail the substantive discussion occurring. Originally about Oscar and then when MJ stans showed up Kareem/Magic in the 90's.

No further comment other than I have about 7,000 posts dating back to 2009 and you won't find one saying any given stat automatically means a player is better or worse.

[Roundball_Rock]

When Kareem is discussed Oscar quickly comes up. What isn’t mentioned is the version of Oscar that was in Milwaukee. Oscar was 32 by the time he got to Milwaukee. Oscar at his peak was 31/13/11. However, his lines in Milwuakee were 19/6/8, 17/5/8, 16/5/8, and 13/4/6. (On average, Oscar was 16/5/8 in Milwaukee after being 29/9/10 in Cincinnati.)

Let's compare his time as a sidekick to other sidekicks, both statistically and in all-NBA selections. The years used for these "sidekick" comparisons begin and end with their first and last finals appearance as the clear cut sidekick.

Oscar Compared to other “Sidekicks” Statistically

Oscar (71’-74') 16/5/8
Pippen (91’-98’) 20/7/6
Wade (11’-14’) 22/5/5
Irving (15’-17’) 22/3/5
Gasol* (08’-10’) 19/10/3
McHale (84’-88’) 22/9/2
Klay (15’-16’) 22/4/3
Kobe (00’-02’) 25/6/5
Magic (80’-82’) 19/9/9
Pierce (08’-10’) 20/5/4
Dumars (88'-90') 16/3/5
Worthy (87'-91') 20/6/3

How about looking at all-NBA selections? Since there was no third team when Oscar played, to keep it apples to apples let’s look at 1st and 2nd team selections.

Oscar Compared to other “Sidekicks” by All-NBA 1st/2nd Team Selections

Oscar (71’-74) 1
Pippen (91’-98’) 5
Wade (11’-14’) 1
Irving (15’-17’) 0
Gasol (08’-10’) 0
McHale (84’-88’) 1
Klay (15’-16’) 0
Kobe (00’-02’) 3
Magic (80’-82’) 1
Pierce (08’-10’) 1
Dumars (88'-90') 0
Worthy (87'-91') 0

Here only Kobe and Pippen stick out. Oscar made it once in four seasons, but so did McHale and Wade. Still, that puts them ahead of sidekicks that never made it in that role on a finals team like Irving, Gasol, and Dumars to name a few.

*This includes his half season in Memphis in 08’, where his numbers were essentially identical in Memphis and LA (his reduced volume was offset by much higher efficiency in LA). If you look at just 09’ and 10’ his line is still 19/10/3.

So we all agree Oscar was not unusually awesome as a "sidekick" in Milwaukee relative to his comparators on other title teams? I do not see much really contesting it. We got a big sideshow saying Magic>Kareem in the 80's but maybe 1-2 posters pushing back on Oscar in Milwaukee.

[MoneyMitch23]

You posted a lot there. None of it refuted what that poster said though :oldlol:

Got caught bullshitting and now you're PISSED that you cant weasel your way out. Have some dignity and just admit it.
Seriously. The transparent weasel LeBron Stan. If he doesn't have the testicular fortitude to admit he's Three 6 Mafia member, and guises it under being a Pippen / Kareem fan. Why do you expect him to refute points that have his dumb passive aggressive ass dead to right? :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Samurai Swish, if you do the crime you must do the time. Why won't you accept your second banning?


guises it under being a Pippen / Kareem fan

I have never professed to be a Kareem fan. MJ stans, as a group, tend to be too dumb to realize you can have a person as GOAT without being a fan of theirs. I guess I am a Joe Montana and Gretzky fan too according to this "logic"?

Don't forget I am supposedly a LeBron fan. Wait a Kobe fan. Wait--I am Fatal9!

Mental midgets spinning from theory to theory. :oldlol: