top 5 players....is Dirk still there?

[-primetime-]

I think he is...

1. Duncan
2. Kobe
3. Lebron
4. Garnett
5. Dirk

then...

6. Nash
7. Wade
8. - 10. Melo, T-Mac, Amare, Iverson, Pierce, Arenas, Yao, ect. (whatever)

[GOBB]

Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Kevin Garnett
Lebron James/Dwayne Wade
Steve Nash


Nope, not top 5 over here.

[Richie2k6]

Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Lebron James
Kevin Garnett

[mlh1981]

http://www.cavshistory.com/images/players/ScotPollard.jpg

"what does a playa have to do to get on this list?"

[-primetime-]

for those of you that over rate Wade and actually have him over Garnett and Lebron could you please list your top ten to let me know where you think Dirk stands currently....

[mlh1981]

1. Duncan
2. Kobe
3. Garnett
4. LeBron
5. Wade

[GOBB]

for those of you that over rate Wade and actually have him over Garnett and Lebron could you please list your top ten to let me know where you think Dirk stands currently....

Dirk comes after Steve Nash which makes him ranked 7th.

[-primetime-]

Dirk comes after Steve Nash which makes him ranked 7th.
now if only Dirk had an Amare to keep him from being triple teamed...

[Richie2k6]

for those of you that over rate Wade and actually have him over Garnett and Lebron could you please list your top ten to let me know where you think Dirk stands currently....
1) Tim Duncan
2) Kobe Bryant
3/4) Dwyane Wade
3/4) LeBron James
5) Kevin Garnett
6) Steve Nash
7) Dirk Nowitzki
8) Allen Iverson
9) Tracy McGrady
10) Gilbert Arenas/Paul Pierce/Carmelo Anthony


now if only Dirk had an Amare to keep him from being triple teamed...
Come on, man. Let's not make excuses. He's a Maverick. Nash is a Sun. That's just the way it is.

[DatZNasty]

considering it's probably this yr's performance that dropped Dirk of many's top 5, why is Wade still there?

[Lebron23]

1. Kobe Bryant
2. LeBROn James
3. Tim Duncan
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Dwayne Wade
6. Dirk Nowitski
7. Amare Stoudemire
8. Steve Nash
9. Gilbert Arenas
10. Carmelo Anthony/Allen Iverson/ Tracy Mcgrady

[Richie2k6]

considering it's probably this yr's performance that dropped Dirk of many's top 5, why is Wade still there?
Wade was injured for a lot of the season. Dirk wasn't.

[Free]

considering it's probably this yr's performance that dropped Dirk of many's top 5, why is Wade still there?


I've had Wade above Dirk since last year. Even when discounting age, I'd take Wade over Dirk everyday of the week.

[picc84]

1. Duncan
2-4. Kobe/Bron/Wade
5. Nash
6. Garnett
7. Dirk

[-primetime-]

considering it's probably this yr's performance that dropped Dirk of many's top 5, why is Wade still there?
EXACTLY

Wade shouldn't be in anyone's top 5 much less above Lebron...

lebron took his team to the Finals without the help of Shaq...

Wade is the most overrated player in the NBA

[mlh1981]

Someone should do a thread tallying up the votes for the top 10 players on ISH (L.Kizzle style). Anyone wanna start this?

[Richie2k6]

Someone should do a thread tallying up the votes for the top 10 players on ISH (L.Kizzle style). Anyone wanna start this?
That would be starting World War 3. :oldlol:

EXACTLY

Wade shouldn't be in anyone's top 5 much less above Lebron...

lebron took his team to the Finals without the help of Shaq...

Wade is the most overrated player in the NBA
Haven't we already gone through this?

[Young HkM]

He's in mine...fam did win MVP.

1. Kobe
2. TD
3. LeBron
4. Dirk
5.Garnett

[-primetime-]

Wade was injured for a lot of the season. Dirk wasn't.
And that makes him better than Dirk?


shouldn't it be the opposite?

Wade was a first round out this year just like Dirk...

Wade spent his season in a wheelchair yet people have him ranked higher than Dirk....that is ridiculous

[-primetime-]

Haven't we already gone through this?
me and you have yes...

[Free]

EXACTLY

Wade shouldn't be in anyone's top 5 much less above Lebron...

lebron took his team to the Finals without the help of Shaq...

Wade is the most overrated player in the NBA

Arguing Wade as a top 3-5 player in this league is a very legitamite argument. Shaq or no Shaq, he's still a tremendous player who's accomplished a great deal in his short career. If you're going to punish him for having Shaq then Kobe shouldn't be in your top 5 either.

[Devientz]

1: Duncan
2: Kobe
3: LBJ
4: Nash
5: Garnett >= Dirk
6: Wade

[Richie2k6]

And that makes him better than Dirk?
Pretty much.

shouldn't it be the opposite?
If you're injured, that doesn't make you any less of a player.

Wade was a first round out this year just like Dirk...
Don't even let me start telling you all the problems the Heat had this year...

Wade spent his season in a wheelchair yet people have him ranked higher than Dirk....that is ridiculous
If Duncan breaks his hand in the season, Dirk > Duncan? NO. If you're injured, it doesn't make you WORSE.

[mlh1981]

Wade just HAS to be top 5. Clutch player who plays with no fear. Cannot be stopped in the open court. If you add in other things (character, willingness to play through pain, etc), you have to include him on this list.

[-primetime-]

Arguing Wade as a top 3-5 player in this league is a very legitamite argument. Shaq or no Shaq, he's still a tremendous player who's accomplished a great deal in his short career. If you're going to punish him for having Shaq then Kobe shouldn't be in your top 5 either.
I am not talking career wise...I am talking about currently.

Kobe didn't spend last season in a wheel chair...he led a group of nobodys to the playoffs without shaq, just like lebron.

Wade was in the playoffs this year because of Shaq, and we he came back he lost.

[mlh1981]

I am not talking career wise...I am talking about currently.

Kobe didn't spend last season in a wheel chair...he led a group of nobodys to the playoffs without shaq, just like lebron.

Wade was in the playoffs this year because of Shaq, and we he came back he lost.


Wade has also made it deep into the playoff w/o Shaq on his team.

[FabCasablancas]

Wade plays with Shaq.. Wade isn't even the best player on his own team.. let alone better than Dirk..

[Agent_Zero]

Duncan
Kobe
Lebron
Nash
Wade

this should be it.

[-primetime-]

If you're injured, that doesn't make you any less of a player.

yes it does...being injury prone does make you less of a player....injuries have ruined many careers.

Wade dislocated his shoulder and has gone through knee surgury...Dirk stays healthy....in my book that is a big PLUS for Dirk.

[FabCasablancas]

Wade has also made it deep into the playoff w/o Shaq on his team.

In the East? Bg whoop..

[Young HkM]

If Duncan breaks his hand in the season, Dirk > Duncan? NO. If you're injured, it doesn't make you WORSE.

I don't see why not. I wouldn't give an injured player the benefit of the doubt to such an extent that he would be in my top 5 right now. He has to prove that he's a top 5 player. If he's not there, too bad for him, I guess he's not eligible. You have to prove yourself every season. You can't coast off what you did the year before.

[mlh1981]

Duncan
Kobe
Lebron
Nash
Wade

this should be it.


You gotta have Garnett on that list somewhere. He's just too good to not have him included.

[Agent_Zero]

Wade plays with Shaq.. Wade isn't even the best player on his own team.. let alone better than Dirk..


read the text under your name. maybe then you'll get a clue. :rolleyes:


wade > shaq and dirk right now.

whole careers shaq and dirk > wade but he's what 4 years into the league. give players time before you start comparing them to veterans.

[Richie2k6]

I am not talking career wise...I am talking about currently.
Well of course Dirk > Wade, right now. Wade isn't 100%. :oldlol:

Kobe didn't spend last season in a wheel chair...he led a group of nobodys to the playoffs without shaq, just like lebron.
Lol. Kobe led a group of scrubs to the playoffs? Cool. Now actually get into the second round. *Crickets* Lebron? Good for him. And you keep bringing up the wheelchair issue as if it's a crime to get injured.

Wade was in the playoffs this year because of Shaq, and we he came back he lost.
Not true. Wade did a lot before and after he was injured. Shaq just had a bigger role than he did the year before, because Wade was injured. What's so hard to understand?

[-primetime-]

Duncan
Kobe
Lebron
Nash
Wade

this should be it.
Garnett > Nash & Wade

[Agent_Zero]

You gotta have Garnett on that list somewhere. He's just too good to not have him included.



i guess.

duncan
kobe
lebron
nash/wade
garnett


im really not sure about whos better nash or wade. could someone help

[Richie2k6]

yes it does...being injury prone does make you less of a player....injuries have ruined many careers.
Is Wade 35? No. You can't predict his career right now.

Wade dislocated his shoulder and has gone through knee surgury...Dirk stays healthy....in my book that is a big PLUS for Dirk.
Not a big enough plus for Dirk to be better than Wade.

Wade plays with Shaq.. Wade isn't even the best player on his own team.. let alone better than Dirk..
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Free]

I am not talking career wise...I am talking about currently.

Kobe didn't spend last season in a wheel chair...he led a group of nobodys to the playoffs without shaq, just like lebron.

Wade was in the playoffs this year because of Shaq, and we he came back he lost.


Huh? Shaq played damn near half the season, how is he responisble for the Heat being in the playoffs? And Wade being injured doens't make him a bad player, he suffered a freak injury, one that he will more than likely recover from. Not to mention he was averaging crazy # prior to his injury (29/8/5, 2 stl and 1.3 bl).

[-primetime-]

Well of course Dirk > Wade, right now. Wade isn't 100%. :oldlol:

ok, then why the fu-ck do you have him ranked higher?

[mlh1981]

i guess.

duncan
kobe
lebron
nash/wade
garnett


im really not sure about whos better nash or wade. could someone help


Just look at the complete package. Wade--more athletic, has a ring, clutch player. Nash--also clutch, but not as clutch as Wade, team leader for Suns, great passer, better shooter. Just weight out those diff. things.

[Richie2k6]

He has to prove that he's a top 5 player.
I hope you're not implying he hasn't proven he's top 5 worthy.

You have to prove yourself every season. You can't coast off what you did the year before.
Well of course right now Dirk > Wade, because Wade's injured. That's easy. But when Wade is healthy, he's the better player.

[-primetime-]

Huh? Shaq played damn near half the season, how is he responisble for the Heat being in the playoffs? And Wade being injured doens't make him a bad player, he suffered a freak injury, one that he will more than likely recover from. Not to mention he was averaging crazy # prior to his injury (29/8/5, 2 stl and 1.3 bl).
I could be wrong but I seem to remember that the Heat had a losing record when Wade got injured....and then Shaq brought them back up.

[Richie2k6]

ok, then why the fu-ck do you have him ranked higher?
Because it was based on when he's healthy, of course.

[Rameek]

Kobe
Duncan
Wade
Lebron
Garnett
Nash
From here on out it gets confusing... Dirk isnt that great to me. He is nice offensive weapon thats about it. He has too many limitations to his game to consider him top 5.

[Richie2k6]

He has too many limitations to his game to consider him top 5.
Agreed.

[-primetime-]

Because it was based on when he's healthy, of course.
he was healthy in this years playoffs...that is why he played

[GOBB]

If Dirk had Amare he probably wouldnt be the best player on the Mavs. Lets get real for a second. Dirk has Josh Howard and Jason Terry. Now those two arent worthy? Amare doesnt make Nash better....Nash has performed WELL without Amare. We've yet to see the reverse over a significant period of time. And Amare if anything has benefitted from Nash prescence via the pick n roll. Thats not saying Amare is stuck on stupid without Nash and cant score. Just that we dont know how he could handle the situation without a PG like Nash ie one who looks to get him the ball. Can Amare do it? Probably, some feel he can others are leary.

With Nash there is no question of how he produces without Amare. He won MVP. You wanna take the award away? Fine have it, give it to whomever. But he still proved he can get the job done without Amare. So this triple teamed BS is hilarious because how often does Dirk get tripled teamed? Sit there and think because the TRUTH of the matter is Dirk SOLD OUT vs a team of midgets. Dirk is the one who couldnt capatilze on mismatches. Dirk is the one who found himself not being able to post up a smaller defender. Dirk is the one who shot under 40% FG making Allen Iverson look like MJ in efficiency. Mofos DOG AI and his FG% yet a 7 foot, known shooter named Dirk shoots 38% for the series (6gms)? He shot 21% from downtown (4-19)?

But chalk it up to him being tripled team right? Why didnt everyone in the league think of defending Dirk like GSW did during the 82gm season. :rolleyes:

F*ck outta here. D.Wade was always ranked over Dirk on my top 5.

[Richie2k6]

he was healthy in this years playoffs...that is why he played
Healthy? The man dislocated his shoulder. He wasn't 100% at all after it. He needed surgery. It was like playing on a bandaged broken leg. You get used to it, but it still denies you the chance to play at your best.

[Free]

I could be wrong but I seem to remember that the Heat had a losing record when Wade got injured....and then Shaq brought them back up.


They were at .500 when Wade got injured. The Heat picked up the pase and went 16-8 while Wade was injured. Shaq led the way for the most part while Wade was out but to suggest that he's soley responsible for the Heat makeing the playoffs is ignortant not to mention ridiculous because you're completly discounting the games that Shaq missed which was more than half the season.

[iggy_needs_help]

1.Duncan
2. Kobe
3. Lebron
4. Nash
5. Wade

[Young HkM]

I hope you're not implying he hasn't proven he's top 5 worthy.

He didn't prove it that to me this season.


Well of course right now Dirk > Wade, because Wade's injured. That's easy. But when Wade is healthy, he's the better player.

I respectfully disagree. In the 2006-2007 season Dwayne Wade didn't demonstrate to me that he was a top 5 player over Dirk. If he played the whole season maybe he would've proven that, but since he wasn't there to prove it, I'd give Dirk the nod over him.

Look at it this way. What did Dwayne Wade do this season to prove that he was a top 5 player, let alone better than Dirk? For all we know he may be on the decline for the rest of his career (probably not but who knows?), because of that reason, I would not put him in my top 5. It's not his fault, but that's how it is, he needs to prove himself every season.

[IGOTGAME]

he was healthy in this years playoffs...that is why he played

you could tell he wasnt healthy..he was a full step to low and finishing below the rim and not exploding....

[-primetime-]

If Dirk had Amare he probably wouldnt be the best player on the Mavs.
you're a fool....Dirk would have countless wide open shots and would be in the running for a scoring title.


But chalk it up to him being tripled team right? Why didnt everyone in the league think of defending Dirk like GSW did during the 82gm series. :rolleyes:

because GS is the only team that plays small ball....they don't play with a center, they play with 2 guards and 3 forwards...they left Damp/Diop alone and tripled up on Dirk...other teams don't have that ability...

now I am not saying that Dirk didn't have a bad series, but there are legit reasons that GS gave Dirk much more problems that other teams...

[IGOTGAME]

He didn't prove it that to me this season.



I respectfully disagree. In the 2006-2007 season Dwayne Wade didn't demonstrate to me that he was a top 5 player over Dirk. If he played the whole season maybe he would've proven that, but since he wasn't there to prove it, I'd give Dirk the nod over him.

Look at it this way. What did Dwayne Wade do this season to prove that he was a top 5 player, let alone better than Dirk? For all we know he may be on the decline for the rest of his career (probably not but who knows?), because of that reason, I would not put him in my top 5. It's not his fault, but that's how it is, he needs to prove himself every season.

it doesnt have to be over Dirk...Dirk isnt a top 5 player because he has disqualified himself by getting owned by D-Wade and GS...Your 7 foot and cant post up Monta Ellis...Come ON!!!!

I told yall before when he couldnt post up Steve Nash something was up...Dirk is soft like CHARMIN...Wade wipes his *** with him, and so does Stephen Jackson.

[-primetime-]

They were at .500 when Wade got injured. The Heat picked up the pase and went 16-8 while Wade was injured. Shaq led the way for the most part while Wade was out but to suggest that he's soley responsible for the Heat makeing the playoffs is ignortant not to mention ridiculous because you're completly discounting the games that Shaq missed which was more than half the season.
still, you just proved that it was Shaq that had to dig the team out of the hole without the help of Wade...they wouldn't have even made the playoofs without Shaq

[Richie2k6]

He didn't prove it that to me this season.
Well I was obviously referring to, you know, when he's capabple of playing his best.

In the 2006-2007 season Dwayne Wade didn't demonstrate to me that he was a top 5 player over Dirk.
For reasons I already stated.

What did Dwayne Wade do this season to prove that he was a top 5 player, let alone better than Dirk?
This season alone? He hasn't been top 5 material. Not to make excuses, but because of the sole purpose that he was nursing a severe shoulder injury.

It's not his fault, but that's how it is, he needs to prove himself every season.
Fair enough.

[IGOTGAME]

you're a fool....Dirk would have countless wide open shots and would be in the running for a scoring title.


because GS is the only team that plays small ball....they don't play with a center, they play with 2 guards and 3 forwards...they left Damp/Diop alone and tripled up on Dirk...other teams don't have that ability...

now I am not saying that Dirk didn't have a bad series, but there are legit reasons that GS gave Dirk much more problems that other teams...

Please explain to me then while 1 on 1...Stephen Jackson throw his shot off the backboard 3 times...Why he passed up shots...why he couldnt post up Monta Ellis..

Dirk wasnt triple teamed......Dirk was exposed..

[Free]

still, you just proved that it was Shaq that had to dig the team out of the hole without the help of Wade...they wouldn't have even made the playoofs without Shaq

And they wouldn't have made the playoffs without Wade.

[Young HkM]

it doesnt have to be over Dirk...Dirk isnt a top 5 player because he has disqualified himself by getting owned by D-Wade and GS...Your 7 foot and cant post up Monta Ellis...Come ON!!!!

I told yall before when he couldnt post up Steve Nash something was up...Dirk is soft like CHARMIN...Wade wipes his *** with him, and so does Stephen Jackson.

It's not really about Dirk though, it's the idea that a player that failed to prove himself in the 2006-07 season but still manages to make my top 5.

[-primetime-]

Look at it this way. What did Dwayne Wade do this season to prove that he was a top 5 player, let alone better than Dirk? For all we know he may be on the decline for the rest of his career (probably not but who knows?), because of that reason, I would not put him in my top 5. It's not his fault, but that's how it is, he needs to prove himself every season.
this is all that needs to be said...

no everone go back to your lists and take Wade out

[-primetime-]

I told yall before when he couldnt post up Steve Nash something was up...Dirk is soft like CHARMIN...Wade wipes his *** with him, and so does Stephen Jackson.
Wade doesn't wipe his own ass, the refs do that for him

[Richie2k6]

you're a fool....Dirk would have countless wide open shots and would be in the running for a scoring title.
Open shots? Are you insane? That's like leaving Pippen open all night long because you're busy guarding Jordan. You don't let a 7 foot MVP sniper have open shots all night long, ever. No defense is stupid enough to leave Dirk, a franchise player, open for any circumstance.

because GS is the only team that plays small ball....they don't play with a center, they play with 2 guards and 3 forwards...they left Damp/Diop alone and tripled up on Dirk...other teams don't have that ability...
And being the normal, one-sided Dirk he is, he chose to shoot jumpshots over "midgets", in reference to Charles Barkley's description. What did Barkley say Dirk had to do to win? "Get them on the block, post'em up and punish those midgets." What did Dirk do? Get them on the arc, jump up and shoot the ball. He didn't attack the rim much at all. He let small players get to him. He attacks the rim more, though still not enough, against big men, but is scared and settles for jumpshots against midgets? I'm confused.

now I am not saying that Dirk didn't have a bad series, but there are legit reasons that GS gave Dirk much more problems that other teams...
Because they swarmed him and Dirk DECIDED to shoot all day. He wasn't forced to. That's just his nature - settles for jumpers with his one-sided game play style. Turn around, fadeaway. Post up, fadeaway, pump fake, fade away, once in a while go in for a layup. Otherwise he's pretty much shooting all day unless he gets easy looks to the rim. That's another reason why he isn't a top 5 player. His game is far too one dimensional. He's a big man that plays like a guard, and everybody knows that big men that shoot all day and don't dominate in the post never win.

still, you just proved that it was Shaq that had to dig the team out of the hole without the help of Wade...they wouldn't have even made the playoofs without Shaq
Okay? And? Shaq is the second option on offense - it was his JOB to carry them.

Wade doesn't wipe his own ass, the refs do that for him
Oh be quiet about "the refs" and the Finals stuff. This is all coming from the mouth of a Mavericks fan. :rolleyes: Wade > Dirk. Simple. Wade attacks the rim like crazy is why he got so many calls. Sure, some of them were just flat out bad, but he still deserved many of the calls. This always happens. Who ever averages more FT attempts or gets to the line most always get criticized for "cheating". Stupid is all it is.

[Free]

It's not really about Dirk though, it's the idea that a player that failed to prove himself in the 2006-07 season but still manages to make my top 5.


If we were discussing the players with the top 5 seasons, I wouldn't put Wade in the top 5, he probably wouldn't be in the top 20 becuase he didn't play enough games. But in this case we're discussing the top 5 players which implies not only performance but ability. I won't write off an injured, player especially in this case becuaes there's a strong possiblity he'll recover and be back to his old self next year. There were no signs of Wade declining as a player, in fact he was having probably the best season as an individual prior to his injury.

[-primetime-]

Open shots? Are you insane? That's like leaving Pippen open all night long because you're busy guarding Jordan. You don't let a 7 foot MVP sniper have open shots all night long, ever. No defense is stupid enough to leave Dirk, a franchise player, open for any circumstance.

I wasn't saying that he would be left ungaurded...i was saying that with a center like Amare that teams wouldn't be able to double or triple team him the way that GS did

[The Italian]

1. Duncan
2. Kobe/Bron
3. Kobe/Bron
4. Garnett
5. Wade/Nash

I would take Wade and Nash over Dirk but I can see why people would take Dirk. I just don't think that Dirk is a top 5 player. He is the definition of soft. He fades away in critical times. He can't handle pressure. Thos are the reasons Dirk isn't in my top 5.

[Richie2k6]

I wasn't saying that he would be left ungaurded...i was saying that with a center like Amare that teams wouldn't be able to double or triple team him the way that GS did
You said he would get tons of open shots and be in the run for a scoring title. I don't see how you can have open shots and not be unguarded.

[-primetime-]

If we were discussing the players with the top 5 seasons, I wouldn't put Wade in the top 5, he probably wouldn't be in the top 20 becuase he didn't play enough games. But in this case we're discussing the top 5 players which implies not only performance but ability. I won't write off an injured, player especially in this case becuaes there's a strong possiblity he'll recover and be back to his old self next year. There were no signs of Wade declining as a player, in fact he was having probably the best season as an individual prior to his injury.
the team was below .500

[-primetime-]

You said he would get tons of open shots and be in the run for a scoring title. I don't see how you can have open shots and not be unguarded.
by beating the ONE guy that is guarding you

[Richie2k6]

the team was below .500
Dude, read. It said AS AN INDIVIDUAL.

[Richie2k6]

by beating the ONE guy that is guarding you
What does Amare have to do with that? What, will he draw double teams? That doesn't mean they'll leave Dirk. They'll just leave someone else.

Either way, Dirk will not get a sifficient amount of "open shots" and will never win a scoring title. With Melo, Lebron, Wade, Durant, Kobe, McGrady, Iverson, etc, he has no chance.

[mlh1981]

the team was below .500


Yes, but team wins is only one factor you look at when determining a list of top 5. If you used that criteria, Garnett wouldn't even be in the top 20-30

[DatZNasty]

I'm done defending Dirk and the Mavs. In fact, the more i think about it, I'm tired of their act and don't know if I could even consider myself a Mavs fan anymore. So many things about that team I don't like.

And there's no defending Dirk's playoffs either. You Mavs fans would like the world to believe that the double team is some illegal tactic that was just invented this yr to stop Dirk, or even that Dirk was doubled every time he touched the ball.

They swarmed him like that the first game, then the effect it had on Dirk mentally just lingered. 4 times he was in the post, the real post, iso'd against Stephen Jackson. 1 time he spinned off him and made a layup. The other 3 SJax mollywhopped his shot off the backboard.

Furthermore, he has a defeatist attitude which you never want to see in a leader i.e "If we lose this game [potentially the 3rd L in a 4 L series], the season's over" or the "I'm making what they're giving me, I just can't do much" type quote or the "Avery wants me to get a post game, I'll work on it but it's never going to be a strong point of my game" type quotes.

[-primetime-]

Dude, read. It said AS AN INDIVIDUAL.
yes, and that INDIVIDUAL could lead his team to wins like Lebron or Kobe

[Richie2k6]

yes, and that INDIVIDUAL could lead his team to wins like Lebron or Kobe
Oh God.

Individual as in person accolades. MVP, scoring title, career number averages, all-NBA selections, etc.

Not championships, winning percentages, etc. Those are team accolades.

[-primetime-]

What does Amare have to do with that? What, will he draw double teams? That doesn't mean they'll leave Dirk. They'll just leave someone else.

since Damp/Diop don't know how to score nobody has to worry about gaurding them...that frees up a player to focus on Dirk...GS left Damp/Diop all alone, Avery knew this would be a problem and decided to not even play them half the time...

If Dirk had an Amare type player then other teams would have to worry about the paint and that would give Dirk more outside shots...teams just don't have to worry about Damp/Diop becuase they can't score worth a sh-it.

[MK2V1GP]

now if only Dirk had an Amare to keep him from being triple teamed...


same with KG buddy...if only he had someone to take away the triple teams...at least dirk has j-ho and jet

[-primetime-]

Not championships, winning percentages, etc. Those are team accolades.
well you certainly don't use that as an excuse for Wade winning with Shaq...

all I am saying is that Wade may have been having a good year number wise but his team was losing without shaq's help....numbers aren't everything.

[Richie2k6]

that frees up a player to focus on Dirk
When people double team Iverson, they don't leave Melo open, or vice-versa. They're a double team offensive threat, like Dirk and Amare would be. When you double team one of the team, your second task is to make sure the other offensive threat can't get easy points. You don't double team Iverson and guard Camby while Melo is easily waltzing his way into the paint for an easy layup. You guard who is the biggest offensive threat, in order.

If Dirk had an Amare type player then other teams would have to worry about the paint and that would give Dirk more outside shots...
Which he loves, right? Shooting. He looooooooves shooting. He loves it enough to shoot over 6"8 players rather than post them up to the rim.

No point in even talking about this anyway. Enough "If Dirk had Amare" stuff. He doesn't have Amare. That's a fact. "What ifs" don't mean anything.

[-primetime-]

same with KG buddy...if only he had someone to take away the triple teams...at least dirk has j-ho and jet
i would trade Dirk for KG....just so you know

[Richie2k6]

well you certainly don't use that as an excuse for Wade winning with Shaq...
:rolleyes:

all I am saying is that Wade may have been having a good year number wise but his team was losing without shaq's help....numbers aren't everything.
He had good personal accomplishments, and sub-par team accomplishments. And I wasn't just referring to his numbers. He was playing the best ball of his life, aside from the Finals.

[-primetime-]

No point in even talking about this anyway. Enough "If Dirk had Amare" stuff. He doesn't have Amare. That's a fact. "What ifs" don't mean anything.
hey man, you asked, i answered

[DatZNasty]

quit all this if Dirk had a 2nd option talk. Dirk's 2nd option had a better series than he did, averaging 21 and 10. Maybe Josh needs to be the one demanding Dirk get traded

[-primetime-]

He had good personal accomplishments, and sub-par team accomplishments. And I wasn't just referring to his numbers. He was playing the best ball of his life, aside from the Finals.
he was playing the best of his life yet his team was below .500?

then you have to put him below Lebron and Kobe then....they had just as little help as Wade

[Richie2k6]

Maybe Josh needs to be the one demanding Dirk get traded
:oldlol:

[Free]

the team was below .500


I meant by a purely statisticle stand point. The Heat struggled as a whole thoughout the whole season due to major injuries to Wade, Willianms and Shaq not to meniton, payton and Kapano. Walker and Posey were deactivated for a few games and Riley took a leave of absencse. And if you want to be technicle, the Heat were 18-14 with Wade and without Shaq so Wade did indeed lead the Heat to an above .500 record.

[-primetime-]

Maybe Josh needs to be the one demanding Dirk get traded
Josh and Terry can be very inconsistant, they have great games, and they have games that they are invisable.

[Richie2k6]

he was playing the best of his life yet his team was below .500?
HIS best basketball as in personally. NOT for what his team accomplished. According to my calculations, the Heat were 26-26 when Wade dislocated his shoulder.

[geeWiz15]

yes Dirk is still top 5. he's the same place he has been all along:

1. Duncan
2. Bron
3. KG
4/5/6: Kobe, Dirk, Wade any order doesn't matter I put them all on the same basic level for all practical purposes

[Richie2k6]

Josh and Terry can be very inconsistant, they have great games, and they have games that they are invisable.
Pfft. Howard is arguably the most consistent player on that team. He almost always has at least 15/6. Dirk can go from having 30/10 to 23/2.

[GOBB]

quit all this if Dirk had a 2nd option talk. Dirk's 2nd option had a better series than he did, averaging 21 and 10. Maybe Josh needs to be the one demanding Dirk get traded

Thats only because Dirk was tripled teamed by midgets in GS

http://www.paulspond.com/journalimages/littlepeople.jpg

[-primetime-]

Pfft. Howard is arguably the most consistent player on that team. He almost always has at least 15/6. Dirk can go from having 30/10 to 23/2.
so Howard is consistantly lower than Dirk...ok

[Richie2k6]

A stretch of Josh Howard games this season in points:

23, 12, 30, 9, 29, 15, 23, 28, 15, 25, 27, 16, 15, 28, 21, 15, 20, 21, 17, 15.

In that game he had 9, he played 27 minutes and attempted 10 shots.

[IGOTGAME]

yes Dirk is still top 5. he's the same place he has been all along:

1. Duncan
2. Bron
3. KG
4/5/6: Kobe, Dirk, Wade any order doesn't matter I put them all on the same basic level for all practical purposes

:roll: :roll:

explain to me how Bron is better than Kobe and Wade???? Explain to me how Dirk is anywhere near wither Kobe or Wade...

[-primetime-]

yes Dirk is still top 5. he's the same place he has been all along:

1. Duncan
2. Bron
3. KG
4/5/6: Kobe, Dirk, Wade any order doesn't matter I put them all on the same basic level for all practical purposes
you know if Kobe was in Lebron's shoes he would have done the same if not better...

[Richie2k6]

so Howard is consistantly lower than Dirk...ok
I'd probably rather have a consistent 20/7 guy than a 25/10, 15/2, 12/8, 24/5 guy.

[-primetime-]

:roll: :roll:

explain to me how Bron is better than Kobe and Wade???? Explain to me how Dirk is anywhere near wither Kobe or Wade...
Kobe...no

Wade...easy

[-primetime-]

I'd probably rather have a consistent 20/7 guy than a 30/10, 15/2. 12/8, 24/5 guy.
OH WTF RICH...

now you're gonna tell me that Howard is better than Dirk.....come on dude

[Devientz]

Heres my feelings on Wade...

As far as I'm concerned he had one outstanding series against Dallas and thats it. Im not trying to downplay it, but thats the only reason hes even considered in this topic. Granted he hasnt been in the league long, and hes on his way, but hes not there yet and hes way overated imo. I dont hate Wade, but i dont think hes done enough to be considered top 5. Hes definately an all-star callibur player, but he just hasnt done enough to prove himself in my eyes. If he followed up his finals MVP with an outstanding season then Id probably have him top 3, but he didnt and then he got injured...Anyone can have 1 outstanding playoff series. Takes more than that to be considered great especially when your in the east. If he takes his team back to the top next year he will change my mind.

[-primetime-]

Heres my feelings on Wade...

As far as I'm concerned he had one outstanding series against Dallas and thats it. Im not trying to downplay it, but thats the only reason hes even considered in this topic. Granted he hasnt been in the league long, and hes on his way, but hes not there yet and hes way overated imo. I dont hate Wade, but i dont think hes done enough to be considered top 5. Hes definately an all-star callibur player, but he just hasnt done enough to prove himself in my eyes. If he followed up his finals MVP with an outstanding season then Id probably have him top 3, but he didnt and then he got injured...Anyone can have 1 outstanding playoff series. Takes more than that to be considered great especially when your in the east. If he takes his team back to the top next year he will change my mind.
agreed...

and nice post

[GOBB]

How did Lebron do enough to prove himself but not Wade :confusedshrug:

Dirk proved he cant defeat the midgets in G.S :roll: Pathetic.

[-primetime-]

How did Lebron do enough to prove himself but not Wade :confusedshrug:

lebron did it without shaq and stays healthy...

[mlh1981]

People seem to forget that Wade had a fine rookie season w/o Shaq and took them on a decent playoff run.

[Richie2k6]

OH WTF RICH...

now you're gonna tell me that Howard is better than Dirk.....come on dude
When in the name of f*ck did I say Howard > Dirk?

[Richie2k6]

lebron did it without shaq and stays healthy...
Stfu about Shaq and health for the love of God.

[GOBB]

lebron did it without shaq and stays healthy...

Ohhhhh there we go. The Shaq factor. :oldlol: So basically Wade will never prove himself until Shaq is gone. Thats basically all you and others are stating. Look up the Heats record and Wade's production when Shaq was sitting his fat ass on the bench. Proves enough.

While you look up that I'll leave you with this.


Dirk in the NBA finals vs the Heat avg 23ppg shooting 39% FG and 25% from downtown in 6 games.

Dirk the following year in the first round vs GS avg 20ppg shooting 38% FG and 21% from downtown in 6 games.

:roll: But eh, Wade has to prove himself because Shaq fat ass is on the team. Pat Riley said it best in reference to Shaq "Maybe we should start paying him only half of his contract since he plays half a season?".

[Poseidon]

you know if Kobe was in Lebron's shoes he would have done the same if not better...

Probably not because he's an idiot.

[GOBB]

http://www.nba.com/media/suns/as06_barkley_160.jpg-"If Dirk wants to be in my top 5, he has to stop making excuses and step up. Struggling vs GS is not an excuse. Greats find ways, except if your Dirk. This aint boxing, you cant blame styles making fights. This is basketball and you're supposed to be a great, a top 5 player. Since when were you contained by midgets? You're 7'0."

[mlh1981]

The Heat were a garbage franchise for a few years prior to Wade's arrival. He got injured in the early part of his rookie season and they got off to a horrible start. He then came back and led them to the playoffs, which at the beginning of the season, seemed like a total pipedream. Once in the playoffs, they knocked off a veteran Hornets team and took the Pacers to 6 games (I think).

Impressive resume before Shaq if you ask me.

[L.Kizzle]

I'm kind of late to the thread, but when was Dirk ever a top 5 player? A top ten player, yes but top 5?

[-primetime-]

Ohhhhh there we go. The Shaq factor. :oldlol: So basically Wade will never prove himself until Shaq is gone. Thats basically all you and others are stating. Look up the Heats record and Wade's production when Shaq was sitting his fat ass on the bench. Proves enough.

While you look up that I'll leave you with this.


Dirk in the NBA finals vs the Heat avg 23ppg shooting 39% FG and 25% from downtown in 6 games.

Dirk the following year in the first round vs GS avg 20ppg shooting 38% FG and 21% from downtown in 6 games.

:roll: But eh, Wade has to prove himself because Shaq fat ass is on the team. Pat Riley said it best in reference to Shaq "Maybe we should start paying him only half of his contract since he plays half a season?".

you're a dipsh-it

and when you reach 1,000,000 posts in the next 3 months you will still be a dipsh-it.


so we should just disregard the fact that Wade played with the most dominating center in the NBA I guess?....we should disregard the fact that Shaq brought the Heat back from under .500 without Wade?....we should disregard the fact that Wade spent last season in a wheelchair...

lets just all pretend that Wade can do no wrong and Shaq is a fat nobody that does nothing then...

[mlh1981]

you're a dipsh-it

and when you reach 1,000,000 posts in the next 3 months you will still be a dipsh-it.


so we should just disregard the fact that Wade played with the most dominating center in the NBA I guess?....we should disregard the fact that Shaq brought the Heat back from under .500 without Wade?....we should disregard the fact that Wade spent last season in a wheelchair...

lets just all pretend that Wade can do no wrong and Shaq is a fat nobody that does nothing then...

Wade never played with a prime Shaq, though. That's the difference.

[-primetime-]

Wade never played with a prime Shaq, though. That's the difference.
he was still shaq....and he was still the best center in the NBA...and when he is healthy (even to this day) he is better than any center in the NBA.

[GOBB]

you're a dipsh-it

and when you reach 1,000,000 posts in the next 3 months you will still be a dipsh-it.

Says the idiot who in another thread would draft Yi over Tim Duncan if a draft were done today. :oldlol:

You're not on my level. Find a subject where you outshine me and hope for your sake I want to pretend/challenge you in it. Then and only then would you be able to truly feel like GOBB is a dipshyt.



so we should just disregard the fact that Wade played with the most dominating center in the NBA I guess?....

Most dominating Center? In a league where PF play Center? In a league where the Center position has changed ie your prototypical Center no longer exists due to the versatile players in the game? Most dominating Center who watched his team get swept? Most dominating Center where a year prior didnt even win finals MVP vs a team that didnt have a Center worthy to carry his gym bags?

You're stuck in the past. Shaq is not a dominating force anymore. At times he can dominate but so can Yao Ming. And last I checked Yao Ming is the best Center in the NBA, but we will continue to hold Shaq to the "most dominating center" fantasy for another 3-4yrs. :hammerhead:

And you call me a dipshyt?



we should disregard the fact that Shaq brought the Heat back from under .500 without Wade?....

Just like you disregard the Heats record without Shaq & with Wade.


we should disregard the fact that Wade spent last season in a wheelchair...

Just like we disregard Shaq playing 59gms last year and 40gms this year. Wade played more games thasn Shaq did last season...disregard that it was only 10 more games.


lets just all pretend that Wade can do no wrong and Shaq is a fat nobody that does nothing then...

We dont have to pretend Shaq isnt fat. Even his head coach Pat Riley acknowledged that much. :oldlol:

[Free]

Heres my feelings on Wade...

As far as I'm concerned he had one outstanding series against Dallas and thats it. Im not trying to downplay it, but thats the only reason hes even considered in this topic. Granted he hasnt been in the league long, and hes on his way, but hes not there yet and hes way overated imo. I dont hate Wade, but i dont think hes done enough to be considered top 5. Hes definately an all-star callibur player, but he just hasnt done enough to prove himself in my eyes. If he followed up his finals MVP with an outstanding season then Id probably have him top 3, but he didnt and then he got injured...Anyone can have 1 outstanding playoff series. Takes more than that to be considered great especially when your in the east. If he takes his team back to the top next year he will change my mind.

Wow, Wade has been one of the most accomplished playoff performers in the first 3 years of his career in the history of the game. He helped lead a young and overachieving Heat team to the second round of the playoffs in his rookie year and came close to knocking off the number one team in the East. In his sophmore year, he put up historic numbers by becoming only the fifth player in history to average 25/8ast/50% for a whole series and followed it up by averaging 30/8/50% in the second round. Almost led the Heat past the Pistons in that same year, and probably would have done so if not for his hip injury. He won a championship in his 3rd year, with a historic performance and prior to that he dominated the Pistons averaging 30ppg on 70% shooting through 4 games (63% shooting, 27 ppg for the whole sereies). Not to mention he's been great in the regular season year in and year out. Yeah, not seeing AT ALL how he's overrated or how he's only had ONE great series.

[Richie2k6]

you're a dipsh-it
Gonna start swearing now? Come on, you're more mature than that.

so we should just disregard the fact that Wade played with the most dominating center in the NBA I guess?
Shaq's numbers didn't show that.

we should disregard the fact that Shaq brought the Heat back from under .500 without Wade?....
For the love of God...

we should disregard the fact that Wade spent last season in a wheelchair...

Enough with the wheelchair bullshi*t.

lets just all pretend that Wade can do no wrong and Shaq is a fat nobody that does nothing then...
That'd be a lie. Shaq is just not an excellent player anymore. Wade is.

Face, it, primetime, Wade > Dirk. Stop saying all this crap because you're a Mavericks fan. Wade is better. Dirk isn't top 5.

That is a fact.

[jaydacris]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Young HkM
Look at it this way. What did Dwayne Wade do this season to prove that he was a top 5 player, let alone better than Dirk? For all we know he may be on the decline for the rest of his career (probably not but who knows?), because of that reason, I would not put him in my top 5. It's not his fault, but that's how it is, he needs to prove himself every season.


this is all that needs to be said...

no everone go back to your lists and take Wade out

well with that logic from wut we saw from dirk in his latest playoffs outing, wuts to say that hes not gonna be a pansy ass ***** for the rest of his career, and shoot terribly and choke terribly in the playoffs?

[-primetime-]

Says the idiot who in another thread would draft Yi over Tim Duncan if a draft were done today. :oldlol:
You're not on my level. Find a subject where you outshine me and hope for your sake I want to pretend/challenge you in it. Then and only then would you be able to truly feel like GOBB is a dipshyt.
Yi is 19, Duncan is 32.....that is a 13 year differance...Sure Dunca would be better for the next 4 to 5 years....but then I have another 13 years to top that....I would take my chances with the youngster

Most dominating Center? In a league where PF play Center? In a league where the Center position has changed ie your prototypical Center no longer exists due to the versatile players in the game? Most dominating Center who watched his team get swept? Most dominating Center where a year prior didnt even win finals MVP vs a team that didnt have a Center worthy to carry his gym bags?

You're stuck in the past. Shaq is not a dominating force anymore. At times he can dominate but so can Yao Ming. And last I checked Yao Ming is the best Center in the NBA, but we will continue to hold Shaq to the "most dominating center" fantasy for another 3-4yrs. :hammerhead:
Shaq is the most dominating center no matter what league or era...keep pretending that shaq is done and means nothing...

And you call me a dipshyt?:
yeah, I guess I did...

Just like you disregard the Heats record without Shaq & with Wade.
no, they were below .500 without Shaq....then Shaq brought them back above and into the playoffs....I have said this before.

We dont have to pretend Shaq isnt fat. Even his head coach Pat Riley acknowledged that much. :oldlol:
no, but I guess you can pretend that Shaq sucks

[Richie2k6]

Shaq is the most dominating center no matter what league or era...keep pretending that shaq is done and means nothing...

no, but I guess you can pretend that Shaq sucks
You really enjoy putting words in people's mouths. Who here said Shaq is useless? *Crickets*.

Primetime, either you really don't like Wade, or you really like Dirk. I think both.

I'll be back later.

[Rockets(T-mac)]

A bit late on this one but no Dirk isn't top 5. He can't get it done consistantly in the playoffs. I saw stuff about Dirk is better Wade arguments in the other page, I say that Wade is better. He can get it done in the playoffs and is a better leader and can carry his team when they are stuggling.

[-primetime-]

Gonna start swearing now? Come on, you're more mature than that.

Enough with the wheelchair bullshi*t.

hmmm....something seems.....hmmm

[jaydacris]

lol OH NO, NOT THE WORD "BULLSH!T"
ahaha, grow up..

[cantrelle00]

ok Here is my top 9. i believe this is the best:
1-Kobe Bryant (he knows how to win. By himself he still makes the playoffs)
2-TIm Duncan (no doubt the best and most creative post player in the nba)
3-Lebron James(an unbelievable athlete who gets to the finals at age 21)
4-Kevin Garnett(An outstading big man, who can also shoot)
5-Steve Nash(3 or 4 mvps, also one of the best passers to play the game)
6-Dirk(an extrodinary big man who is 7 feet tall and can knock down a shot from where ever he wants, also has one of the best fade shots, and 2007 mvp)
7-Dwayne Wade(only about 23-24 years old and already has a ring, and possible another to come)
8-Allen Iverson(steals the ball better than anyone, can pass very well, and an awsome scorer, when on the sixers he scored as if he was kobe)
9-Tracy Mcgrady(amazing athlete, shoots extremely well, hits any shot on the court. When he played for Orlando he would average 30 a game. Also dont forget those 13 points he had in oly 30 seconds)

[-primetime-]

lol OH NO, NOT THE WORD "BULLSH!T"
ahaha, grow up..
get a clue

he called me imature for say the word dipsh-it and "cursing" and then he goes on to scream out "BULLSH-IT"...

i was just pointing out how hypocritical he was being....moron

[jaydacris]

are you retarded? he used the word in a statement, to express how dumb something is. you used a word to offend him and attack him..

"you're a dipsh!t" versus "this is bullsh!t"

do you understand? comprendez?

[Richie2k6]

hmmm....something seems.....hmmm
Nice try, however, I wasn't swearing at you as if I was saying something bad. Swearing out of aggrovation is different from swearing AT somebody.

Try again.

[Devientz]

He helped lead a young and overachieving Heat team to the second round of the playoffs in his rookie year

Against the .500 hornets. With Caron Butler and Lamar Odom...Hardly remarkable


came close to knocking off the number one team in the East Pacers won 4-2...Not exactly close...while the Pacers were pretty good that year its nothing to brag about.

While im not gonna try to downplay Wades numbers, almost doesnt count. Same reason you see Kobe getting bashed on for the past couple years. Like I said, Wade is a newcomer in the league and he has all the time in the world to prove himself, but IMO he hasnt done it yet. Never did I say Wade wasnt good, I never really criticized him...all I said was that he isnt deserving of top 5 in my eyes...If you cant understand that then I'm sorry. But there are a lot of players who have done a lot in their careers..Wade hasnt yet. Will he? Probably..but not yet (In my eyes)....Dont get me wrong here..Like I said I dont hate wade...but top 5 is pushing it imo

[GOBB]

Yi is 19, Duncan is 32.....that is a 13 year differance...Sure Dunca would be better for the next 4 to 5 years....but then I have another 13 years to top that....I would take my chances with the youngster

Good luck because in the 4-5yrs Duncan would accomplish more than Yi would. And you're banking on hope Yi pans out because you saw some youtube highlights and China league stats. I dont mind Yi protential but I'll go with the SURE thing before I put my entire franchise in an unknowns hands. With Oden, Durant I've seen what they are able to do live and direct. Yi? Nope.


Shaq is the most dominating center no matter what league or era...keep pretending that shaq is done and means nothing...

:oldlol: Yeah man Shaq is dominating. You exagerrate the opposite then argue on it. Why? Who said Shaq means nothing? I simply said he is NOT the most dominating Center in the NBA. He is PAST his prime. He is often injured as his career winds down. I'm hitting you with realistic views and you're holding onto the Shaq of old as if he will 4ever be a dominant force. Not even MJ fans made this argument when he came back to play for the Wizards.

yeah, I guess I did...


no, they were below .500 without Shaq....then Shaq brought them back above and into the playoffs....I have said this before.

So Miami Heat with Wade and without Shaq were below .500?


no, but I guess you can pretend that Shaq sucks

No one pretends Shaq sucks. You called Shaq the most dominant Center in the NBA. A topic and topics here have been made on this. Majority overrules. Shaq is not the dominant force he used to be. He can dominate a game, he is not a dominant player anymore. There is a difference. He is not the best Center in the NBA either, something you claim he is. Yao Ming is. And again topics here were made and majority overruled.

See the difference with me and you? Your arguments are nothing more than talkin out your ass, fabricating points/putting words in others mouths then ARGUING them.

Example?

"Shaq is not the best Center in the NBA. Last 2yrs he has been playing less, getting injured more and has to play himself into shape as the season progresses"

Your reply "Ok so Shaq sucks and you would take Dalembert over him. GoBB you're an idiot"

Thats how your mentality here operates when you're challenged and backed into a corner like a putty cat. Everyone sees it but you. :oldlol:

[-primetime-]

are you retarded? he used the word in a statement, to express how dumb something is. you used a word to offend him and attack him..

"you're a dipsh!t" versus "this is bullsh!t"

do you understand? comprendez?
he said this....

Gonna start swearing now? Come on, you're more mature than that.
maybe he should have said this....

Gonna start insulting now? Come on, you're more mature than that.

[jaydacris]

you know what he means, are you gonna go around correcting everyones little typing/grammar errors as well? i would tell you to stick to arguing about basketball, but you suck at that just as bad as you suck at everything else, and yes im insulting you, and having lots of fun doing it.

[-primetime-]

ok, we have different opinions about shaq....i think he was still dominate when he won with the heat and you don't....let's leave it at that



So Miami Heat with Wade and without Shaq were below .500?

I don't know the exact percentage, if it wasn't below .500 then it was right at .500 or a little bit above....

what I do know is that when Wade got injured it was Shaq that brought the team out of the hole that they were in...

Shaq w/o Wade > Wade w/o Shaq

[Free]

Against the .500 hornets. With Caron Butler and Lamar Odom...Hardly remarkable

Pacers won 4-2...Not exactly close...while the Pacers were pretty good that year its nothing to brag about.

While im not gonna try to downplay Wades numbers, almost doesnt count. Same reason you see Kobe getting bashed on for the past couple years. Like I said, Wade is a newcomer in the league and he has all the time in the world to prove himself, but IMO he hasnt done it yet. Never did I say Wade wasnt good, I never really criticized him...all I said was that he isnt deserving of top 5 in my eyes...If you cant understand that then I'm sorry. But there are a lot of players who have done a lot in their careers..Wade hasnt yet. Will he? Probably..but not yet (In my eyes)....Dont get me wrong here..Like I said I dont hate wade...but top 5 is pushing it imo

Seriously, how has he NOT proven himself. You're not giving any valid points here. Are you using his age against him, if so LeBron shouldn't be in the discussion. And he has already accomplished more than guys like Garnett and Dirk in his short career. So a guy that's advanced to at least the second round of the playoffs in his first three years, led his team to the conference finals his second year and led his team to the championship in his third year as an underdog hasn't proven himself??? If he was being compared to all time greats, I'd understand but we're talking about Top 5 players today. And why don't Wade's numbers count when they've resulted in success?

Oh and Caron Butler was injured most of his rookie year and he was a 9ppg player, NO WHERE near the player he is today.

[-primetime-]

you know what he means, are you gonna go around correcting everyones little typing/grammar errors as well? i would tell you to stick to arguing about basketball, but you suck at that just as bad as you suck at everything else, and yes im insulting you, and having lots of fun doing it.
just shut the fu-ck up and go listen to your Ludacris cd...

[artest 93]

i read some of the posts and its funny. mav fans crying for dirk and hating on wade/nash. but whatever. i don treally care about dirk being top 5, personally i dont think he is, but im not in the mood to make a list and argue since its already been established that he isnt. only thing going on is complaining. dirk is top 10 though =). congratulations.

[jaydacris]

oh man, you're mean. :(

[Free]

ok, we have different opinions about shaq....i think he was still dominate when he won with the heat and you don't....let's leave it at that


I don't know the exact percentage, if it wasn't below .500 then it was right at .500 or a little bit above....

what I do know is that when Wade got injured it was Shaq that brought the team out of the hole that they were in...

Shaq w/o Wade > Wade w/o Shaq


The HEat were 18-14 with Wade and without Shaq, they were 16-8 with Shaq and without Wade. Shaq had a much healthier team to work with not to mention the additon of Eddie Jones who was huge and the return of RIley.

[-primetime-]

The HEat were 18-14 with Wade and without Shaq, they were 16-8 with Shaq and without Wade. Shaq had a much healthier team to work with not to mention the additon of Eddie Jones who was huge and the return of RIley.
well, it still can't be denied that the Heat would not be in the playoffs without shaq's performance during Wade's absence

[Richie2k6]

well, it still can't be denied that the Heat would not be in the playoffs without shaq's performance during Wade's absence
Okay, your point?

[Free]

well, it still can't be denied that the Heat would not be in the playoffs without shaq's performance during Wade's absence


And vice versa!

[The Hurricane]

This is a worthless debate, stop wasting your ****ing time people.

[jaydacris]

its only a worthless debate, because some people, like to make up false claims about a player as a way of degrading the quality/performance of another player. i wont say any names ;]

[-primetime-]

Okay, your point?
that Wade needs shaq to make the playoffs unlike Kobe or Lebron

that Wade is overrated...

that is the point here


and when shaq is all but gone we will see if Wade can do what Lebron did this year in the East....my guess is that everyone will realize just how overrated wade is.

[artest 93]

that Wade needs shaq to make the playoffs unlike Kobe or Lebron

that Wade is overrated...

that is the point here


and when shaq is all but gone we will see if Wade can do what Lebron did this year in the East....my guess is that everyone will realize just how overrated wade is.

there should be a documentary made on maverick fans and dwade. maybe they should get together for lunch or something.

[-primetime-]

This is a worthless debate, stop wasting your ****ing time people.
there is no debate here that isn't...we are just posting our thoughts like any other thread here.

I think that right now based off of this season that Dirk > Wade....and I use Shaq and injuries to back it up...that is all

[The Hurricane]

there should be a documentary made on maverick fans and dwade. maybe they should get together for lunch or something.


I would bring a gun and murder Wade, probably.

im joking

[Devientz]

Seriously, how has he NOT proven himself. You're not giving any valid points here. Are you using his age against him, if so LeBron shouldn't be in the discussion. And he has already accomplished more than guys like Garnett and Dirk in his short career. So a guy that's advanced to at least the second round of the playoffs in his first three years, led his team to the conference finals his second year and led his team to the championship in his third year as an underdog hasn't proven himself??? If he was being compared to all time greats, I'd understand but we're talking about Top 5 players today. And why don't Wade's numbers count when they've resulted in success?

Oh and Caron Butler was injured most of his rookie year and he was a 9ppg player, NO WHERE near the player he is today.

The thing I hold against Wade is the team he had when he won his championship. While I know none of them were in their prime and Wade, being young, led the team....You had Shaq, Payton, Mourning, walker, williams.ect...a ton of great vetarans. and thats half the battle...Again I DO think Wade is a great player..easily top 10 right now...but leading a team of veterans to the finals vs leading a team of inexperienced players are very different. Leading a team with those players to a ring is great and all but it doesnt overthrow the likes of Garnett Kobe and Nash IMO. I dont know why you cant understand my reasoning, its not that unreasonable..In my list, Wade was #6/7....I also said if he could easily change my mind next season

[Rockets(T-mac)]

that Wade needs shaq to make the playoffs unlike Kobe or Lebron

that Wade is overrated...

that is the point here


and when shaq is all but gone we will see if Wade can do what Lebron did this year in the East....my guess is that everyone will realize just how overrated wade is.
LeBron has a better supporting cast than Wade does when Wade doesn't have Shaq. He has better role players and the defense is about even. Without Shaq the Heat wouldn't make the playoffs but thats because they have a bad team not because Wade is any less of a player. Wade had a winning record without Shaq so in the weak east he might make the playoffs without Shaq and with the weak current line up.

[Free]

that Wade needs shaq to make the playoffs unlike Kobe or Lebron

that Wade is overrated...

that is the point here


and when shaq is all but gone we will see if Wade can do what Lebron did this year in the East....my guess is that everyone will realize just how overrated wade is.


You do know that when Shaq is gone, that's 20 million dollars of cap space being released right??? What do you think that the heat are not going to acquire other palyers to build around Wade??? Seriously!

[Hawker]

Here's my top 5:
1. Duncan
2. Kobe
3. Lebron
4. Dirk
5. Garnett

Dirk is the MVP of the season and I still dont understand why other people being injured is used against him.

Nonetheless, I can understand the dislike for him and his game but please listen to this.

The reason why he doesnt drive/post-up is b/c that isnt the way he plays. If he starts playing like that, then the way the mavs play on offense changes. So i think thats a reason why he doesnt post-up so much.

[-primetime-]

I would bring a gun and murder Wade, probably.

im joking
I would murder the refs, not wade...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fydhtOSlfW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y8nI1PPYOk

the Mavs were not allowed to play any defense that series

[Hawker]

I would murder the refs, not wade...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fydhtOSlfW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y8nI1PPYOk

the Mavs were not allowed to play any defense that series

that still amazes me every time i see that. I cant believe you can ACTUALLY call that a foul.

[Free]

The thing I hold against Wade is the team he had when he won his championship. While I know none of them were in their prime and Wade, being young, led the team....You had Shaq, Payton, Mourning, walker, williams.ect...a ton of great vetarans. and thats half the battle...Again I DO think Wade is a great player..easily top 10 right now...but leading a team of veterans to the finals vs leading a team of inexperienced players are very different. Leading a team with those players to a ring is great and all but it doesnt overthrow the likes of Garnett Kobe and Nash IMO. I dont know why you cant understand my reasoning, its not that unreasonable..In my list, Wade was #6....I also said if he could easily change my mind next season


Oh come on, Magic, Jordan, Shaq, and countless of other greats have led more talented teams to championships, are you going to discredit them also? NOt to mention the Heat were heavy underdogs in the finals, people said they were old and slow beforhand. Wade led a veteran team to a championship but he did some heavy lifting himself. Oh and I'm not arguing your top five, that's your peragative, I'm just arguing your statement that Wade is overrated or that he's unworthy of a top five player.

[Rockets(T-mac)]

Here's my top 5:
1. Duncan
2. Kobe
3. Lebron
4. Dirk
5. Garnett

Dirk is the MVP of the season and I still dont understand why other people being injured is used against him.

Nonetheless, I can understand the dislike for him and his game but please listen to this.

The reason why he doesnt drive/post-up is b/c that isnt the way he plays. If he starts playing like that, then the way the mavs play on offense changes. So i think thats a reason why he doesnt post-up so much.
You think that Dirk doesn't post up or drive is because that would change the offense of the Mavs, why exactly is that a bad thing? The team can't get it done in the post season and they have a very weak post why would they welcome a post up player or a player that drives? He doesn't do those things because he can't do them well.

[Devientz]

Oh come on, Magic, Jordan, Shaq, and countless of other greats have led more talented teams to championships, are you going to discredit them also? NOt to mention the Heat were heavy underdogs in the finals, people said they were old and slow beforhand. Wade led a veteran team to a championship but he did some heavy lifting himself. Oh and I'm not arguing your top five, that's your peragative, I'm just arguing your statement that Wade is overrated or that he's unworthy of a top five player.

I DO think Wade is overated...maybe not by you...maybe not by anyone who reads this...but I cant even tell you how many times Ive see people say that wade is "the best" player in the league.

Im not gonna post in this thread anymore...Ill just leave it at this:

"In my opinion, Wade isnt worthy of top 5....close....but not there yet"

That is all:pimp:

[InfiniteBaskets]

I don't know how this "top 5 players... is Dirk still there?" turned into

"top 5 players ... is D Wade still there?" :roll:

So to all those people who keep criticizing Wade < Dirk, I have a question.. Why do you attack only Wade? By doing this, are you acknowledging that besides Wade, you think that (My top 5 w/o wade)
1. Duncan
2. Kobe
3. Nash
4 and 5. LeBron / Garnett tied

are all better than Dirk? If that's the case, then wouldn't the thread be over b/c Dirk would still not be in top 5 regardless of whether he is better than Wade or not?

Or perhaps you think Dirk is better than maybe LeBron or Garnett as well except you attack Wade maybe because you feel he is the easiest one to outcast from the top five or maybe you might dislike how he sometimes does get unfair calls his way. I'm not sure. But either way, in my opinion I believe that if Dwayne Wade never existed in the league, Dirk would STILL not be in the top 5[B]. Feel free to debate my first point if you'd like to downplay a player besides Wade for a change.

Secondly, I will concede that although both players had disappointing seasons, Wade did not perform as well as Dirk [B]this past season. So top five for last season only, Wade is not there. However, if I were to pick a healthy Dwayne Wade or a healthy Dirk Nowitzki, I'd go with DWade. D Wade at his best has already proven that he can outplay a healthy Dirk.

I'd put Wade on my list tied with LeBron and Garnett. Dirk would be a lower tier top 10 player.

[Free]

I DO think Wade is overated...maybe not by you...maybe not by anyone who reads this...but I cant even tell you how many times Ive see people say that wade is "the best" player in the league.

Im not gonna post in this thread anymore...Ill just leave it at this:

"In my opinion, Wade isnt worthy of top 5....close....but not there yet"

That is all:pimp:

For every person that overrates Wade there are those who underrate him. This is usually the case for most players. Anyways I respect your opinion although I strongly disagree.

[-primetime-]

You think that Dirk doesn't post up or drive is because that would change the offense of the Mavs, why exactly is that a bad thing? The team can't get it done in the post season and they have a very weak post why would they welcome a post up player or a player that drives? He doesn't do those things because he can't do them well.
you are right...

kinda like Duncan doesn't shoot threes

Dirk is an outside shooter, plain and simple

[-primetime-]

For every person that overrates Wade there are those who underrate him. This is usually the case for most players. Anyways I respect your opinion although I strongly disagree.
I don't think so...

there are enough Wade/Barkley commericials on for every casual fan in the world to think Wade is jordan...

[Rockets(T-mac)]

I don't think so...

there are enough Wade/Barkley commericials on for every casual fan in the world to think Wade is jordan...
There are enough Lebron commercials as there are casual fans that think Lebron is better than Jordan. What your point? Wade has been getting underrated ever since he got injured, because pre injury he was top 5 for sure and now he isn't top 5 at all.:rolleyes: :ohwell:

[TiMavericks21]

I find it funny that everyone speaks so highly about Lebron and so poorly of Dirk. Did Dirk struggle in a playoff series. Absolutely, he got double and triple teamed and had a very poor series against a very hot team. Lebron James led the Cavs to the Finals in the terrible Eastern Conference. He played good up until the Finals and then what? He faded in the Finals just like Dirk did against the Warriors. Once SA sent double and triple teams at him, he struggled. Obviously Cleveland's loss to SA isn't comparable to Dallas against GS because it was the biggest upset in NBA history, but I just find it funny how all of you ignorant people who criticize Dirk define a player based upon 6 games. He went cold for 6 games. Apparently that drops him out of the so called "Top 5" when he's only led Dallas to to winning no less than 50 games since 2000, but no, it's these 6 games that should make his status completely plummet.

[Free]

I don't think so...

there are enough Wade/Barkley commericials on for every casual fan in the world to think Wade is jordan...


If that were the case, the ratings would be much higher and he'd be considered far and away the best player in the league.

[White Chocolate]

http://www.cavshistory.com/images/players/ScotPollard.jpg

"what does a playa have to do to get on this list?"


Do drugs.

[DatZNasty]

I find it funny that everyone speaks so highly about Lebron and so poorly of Dirk. Did Dirk struggle in a playoff series. Absolutely, he got double and triple teamed and had a very poor series against a very hot team. Lebron James led the Cavs to the Finals in the terrible Eastern Conference. He played good up until the Finals and then what? He faded in the Finals just like Dirk did against the Warriors. Once SA sent double and triple teams at him, he struggled. Obviously Cleveland's loss to SA isn't comparable to Dallas against GS because it was the biggest upset in NBA history, but I just find it funny how all of you ignorant people who criticize Dirk define a player based upon 6 games. He went cold for 6 games. Apparently that drops him out of the so called "Top 5" when he's only led Dallas to to winning no less than 50 games since 2000, but no, it's these 6 games that should make his status completely plummet.
you neglect to mention Dirk has, 2 yrs running, been involved in 2 HISTORIC level upsets at this point

[Richie2k6]

He faded in the Finals just like Dirk did against the Warriors.
No. The Spurs were just better. Lebron played fine. Dirk played terribly.

[Rockets(T-mac)]

I find it funny that everyone speaks so highly about Lebron and so poorly of Dirk. Did Dirk struggle in a playoff series. Absolutely, he got double and triple teamed and had a very poor series against a very hot team. Lebron James led the Cavs to the Finals in the terrible Eastern Conference. He played good up until the Finals and then what? He faded in the Finals just like Dirk did against the Warriors. Once SA sent double and triple teams at him, he struggled. Obviously Cleveland's loss to SA isn't comparable to Dallas against GS because it was the biggest upset in NBA history, but I just find it funny how all of you ignorant people who criticize Dirk define a player based upon 6 games. He went cold for 6 games. Apparently that drops him out of the so called "Top 5" when he's only led Dallas to to winning no less than 50 games since 2000, but no, it's these 6 games that should make his status completely plummet.
First Lebron didn't have a good first two games in the finals but was pretty good for the rest. Dirk was horrible for the entire GS series. And Dirk was only the leader of the team when Nash left not since 2000. :rolleyes: Michael Finley anyone.

[Free]

No. The Spurs were just better. Lebron played fine. Dirk played terribly.


No. LeBron was pretty bad, he shot 36/38% from the field and never really got in the flow.

[Richie2k6]

No. LeBron was pretty bad, he shot 36/38% from the field and never really got in the flow.
He wasn't in the flow and he shot low from the field. He played better than Dirk, firstly. Secondly, his points, rebounds, and assists were all still there to add to it.

[Free]

He wasn't in the flow and he shot low from the field. He played better than Dirk, firstly. Secondly, his points, rebounds, and assists were all still there to add to it.


I agree he played better than Dirk, but he was still pretty bad.

[kentatm]

I say yes but really, once you get to the top 15 or so it really comes down to who is playing best at that moment.

[Rameek]

I think he is...

1. Duncan
2. Kobe
3. Lebron
4. Garnett
5. Dirk

then...

6. Nash
7. Wade
8. - 10. Melo, T-Mac, Amare, Iverson, Pierce, Arenas, Yao, ect. (whatever)


1. LEEbron
2. Oden
3. Amare
4. Howard
5. Yao
6. Wade
7. Melo
8. Durant
9. Kobe
10. give me Yi here....yeah I said it...YI baby
dont see Dirk:wtf: :cheers: :roll: :banana:

[eliteballer]

is Dirk still there?

He was never there in the first place.

[Fluffy Bird]

I fail to see how Garnett is better than Dirk.

I think we are all a little harsh on the big guy. He did get to the finals a year ago and lead his team to 67 wins this year. You can say he choked till the cows come home, but at least he put himself in position to choke. It is pretty tough to get a rep for choking when you are home every year for the playoffs ala KG.

Dirk > KG

there is really no unbiased case to be made otherwise.

[wang4three]

Duncan
Kobe
Lebron
Nash
Garnett
Dirk
Wade
Shaq
Kidd

[XxNeXuSxX]

Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Lebron James
Kevin Garnett
That's right.

[XxNeXuSxX]

I fail to see how Garnett is better than Dirk.

I think we are all a little harsh on the big guy. He did get to the finals a year ago and lead his team to 67 wins this year. You can say he choked till the cows come home, but at least he put himself in position to choke. It is pretty tough to get a rep for choking when you are home every year for the playoffs ala KG.

Dirk > KG

there is really no unbiased case to be made otherwise.
:rolleyes: So his team had more success so there isn't a single "case" to be made otherwise.

Well, KG made the conference finals in 2004, while Dirk went home in the first round. Was KG "inarguably" better then as well? Or does that only apply when your player is winning?

[Richie2k6]

I fail to see how Garnett is better than Dirk.
Scoring - Dirk
Defense - Garnett
Blocking - Garnett
Stealing - Garnett
Passing- Garnett
Assisting - Garnett
Shooting - Dirk
Career Accolades - Garnett
Rebounding - Garnett

Garnett wins.

It is pretty tough to get a rep for choking when you are home every year for the playoffs ala KG.
Last time I checked, The Mavericks have Josh Howard, Jason Terry, and Jerry Stackhouse to back up Dirk Nowitzki. The Timberwolves have...? Ricky Davis and a bad coach? That's what I thought.

there is really no unbiased case to be made otherwise.
Sure there is. I'm not a Garnett or a Dirk fan, so I'm unbiased to the max.

[XxNeXuSxX]

Scoring - Dirk
Defense - Garnett
Blocking - Garnett
Stealing - Garnett
Passing- Garnett
Assisting - Garnett
Shooting - Dirk
Career Accolades - Garnett
Rebounding - Garnett

Garnett wins.

To be fair, "passing" and "assisting?" I think are the same thing, and career accolades are really an even split not. Regardless, Garnett still has far more talent than Dirk.

For example, you could add an Athleticism category:

Speed-Garnett
Jumping-Garnett
Quickness-Garnett
Stamina-Even

It really isn't close.




Last time I checked, The Mavericks have Josh Howard, Jason Terry, and Jerry Stackhouse to back up Dirk Nowitzki. The Timberwolves have...? Ricky Davis and a bad coach? That's what I thought.

Give Foye some time, he'll be ok.

They do need a GM though to put together a real team together with a coach.


Sure there is. I'm not a Garnett or a Dirk fan, so I'm unbiased to the max.
I'm pretty sure he was just trolling now that I think about it...

[Richie2k6]

To be fair, "passing" and "assisting?" I think are the same thing, and career accolades are really an even split not. Regardless, Garnett still has far more talent than Dirk.

Just for specificity:

Passing - Giving the ball to another teammate.
Assisting - Giving the ball to another teammate in a chance for them to score.
Playmaking - Creating a scoring opportunity for another teammate.

That's how I've always personally looked at it. But let's not get into that.

I'm pretty sure he was just trolling now that I think about it...
Pretty likely. :oldlol:

[Orlando Magic]

So you win MVP and you're not top 5? Makes perfect sense to me.

[-primetime-]

dont see Dirk:wtf: :cheers: :roll: :banana:
Dirk is 30 years old....too old to draft

[Richie2k6]

So you win MVP and you're not top 5? Makes perfect sense to me.
:rolleyes:

Read over the thread.

[Orlando Magic]

:rolleyes:

Read over the thread.

Is there really a need with such stupidity?

[XxNeXuSxX]

Shogon?

[Richie2k6]

Is there really a need with such stupidity?
Kobe, Lebron, Garnett, Nash and Wade are all better than Dirk. So he isn't top 5, MVP or no MVP. Simple.

[Orlando Magic]

Kobe, Lebron, Garnett, Nash and Wade are all better than Dirk. So he isn't top 5, MVP or no MVP. Simple.

Kobe, Nash & Wade are not better than Dirk.

Kobe & Wade getting in the zone are better than Dirk in the zone. On a nightly basis... I'll take Dirk over either of them, thank you.

If we're talking about what a player is capable of and has shown us before when they're hot and go on an assbeating streak of games or even just one game... and what they can STILL do, then I wouldn't put Dirk top 5 either.

But as far as game in, game out goes... Dirk is top 5.

[ChuckOakley]

1. Kobe
2. TD
3. LBJ
4. KG
5. Dirk
6. Nash
7. Wade
8. Pierce
9. AI
10. T-Mac

HM
Amare, Anthony, Yao, Arenas, Boozer, Bosh

[Richie2k6]

Kobe, Nash & Wade are not better than Dirk.
:oldlol:

Kobe & Wade getting in the zone are better than Dirk in the zone. On a nightly basis... I'll take Dirk over either of them, thank you.
I wouldn't.

[Carbine]

This thread is infested with stupid people. Listen fellahs, the only real thing Dirk shines at in the NBA is offense. His offensive game is certainly top 5, most likely top 3.

But there is so many more little things, along with major things (defense, passing) that he's not great at. Or even above average. If he's not scoring he's not efecting the game like a top 5 player should and that limits his ability to put his mark on a game on a consistent basis.

I think Dirk is a top 3 player on offense. The other facets of the game is what brings him back out of the top 5. Things like leadership, his attitude, his clutch ability, his defense, etc.

[-primetime-]

I think Dirk is a top 3 player on offense. The other facets of the game is what brings him back out of the top 5. Things like leadership, his attitude, his clutch ability, his defense, etc.
his leadership and attitude are fine..., and other than the GS series and maybe Miami he is clutch

[-primetime-]

Kobe, Lebron, Garnett, Nash and Wade are all better than Dirk. So he isn't top 5, MVP or no MVP. Simple.
Dirk > Nash & Wade

but not Kobe, Lebron, or KG

[Rockets(T-mac)]

This thread is infested with stupid people. Listen fellahs, the only real thing Dirk shines at in the NBA is offense. His offensive game is certainly top 5, most likely top 3.

But there is so many more little things, along with major things (defense, passing) that he's not great at. Or even above average. If he's not scoring he's not efecting the game like a top 5 player should and that limits his ability to put his mark on a game on a consistent basis.

I think Dirk is a top 3 player on offense. The other facets of the game is what brings him back out of the top 5. Things like leadership, his attitude, his clutch ability, his defense, etc.
Great post. Some people need see that Dirk does have flaws and puts him not in the top 5. He has horrible defense, just average rebounds for being 7 foot and gets abused in the post even though he is 7 foot. His offense is great but he doesn't really do anything else on an amazing level.

[Richie2k6]

his leadership and attitude are fine..., and other than the GS series and maybe Miami he is clutch
"If we lose this game, our season is pretty much over."

Nice positive attitude to carry over to your teammates, Dirk. :rolleyes:

[-primetime-]

Great post. Some people need see that Dirk does have flaws and puts him not in the top 5. He has horrible defense, just average rebounds for being 7 foot and gets abused in the post even though he is 7 foot. His offense is great but he doesn't really do anything else on an amazing level.
his defense is not "horrible", but it is not all star level either

he doesn't get 10+ rebounds because he is not an inside player

he is an outside shooter, he doesn't play in the post...why can't people understand that about dirk?

[sic]

Duncan
Kobe
Wade
Lebron
Nash
KG
..
...
....
.....
Jason Terry
Dirk

[-primetime-]

"If we lose this game, our season is pretty much over."

Nice positive attitude to carry over to your teammates, Dirk. :rolleyes:
what he is saying is "we need to win this one guys".

he is just as good of a leader as either Lebron or Kobe...probably better.

[-primetime-]

there are only 2 legit knocks against Dirk here...

A. he choked against GS, and maybe Miami

B. he isn't an all star defensive player

and that is it.

[Richie2k6]

he is an outside shooter, he doesn't play in the post...why can't people understand that about dirk?
I can understand that. I don't, however, understand why he's so highly thought of. Big men shooters aren't as successful as big men post players.

what he is saying is "we need to win this one guys".

No, he's saying "If we lose this, our season is over." "But Dirk, isn't there still a chance after this game?" "Yeah, but we have no chance of coming back."

That's pretty much what he was saying and you know it. He was saying if they lose, they have no chance of coming back. I thought leaders never give up? :confusedshrug:

he is just as good of a leader as either Lebron or Kobe...probably better.
No way in hell is he a better leader than Lebron James.

there are only 2 legit knocks against Dirk here...

A. he choked against GS, and maybe Miami

B. he isn't an all star defensive player

and that is it.

- He choked against Golden State
- He will not be successful shooting from the arc all day
- His defense isn't good
- He isn't as great of a leader as an all-star MVP should be
- He disappears at big games
- He settles for jumpshots over midgets
- Dwyane Wade is better than him

There's tons of legitimate reasons. Those are just some of'em.

[-primetime-]

I can understand that. I don't, however, understand why he's so highly thought of. Big men shooters aren't as successful as big men post players.

Dirk is the first of his kind...

[Fudge]

:roll:

[Richie2k6]

Dirk is the first of his kind...
What the hell? Did you just say Dirk is the first big man to be a shooter?

[Rasheed1]

Dirk is not a top 5 player


he is an outside shooter, he doesn't play in the post...why can't people understand that about dirk?

Oh people do understand it nd its one of the reasons Dirk isnt a top 5 player.

BBall fans have alot of trouble watching a 7 foot dude act like he is allergic to the painted area...

7 footers shooting 3's and perimeter just doesnt go over well with people who know bball..

even the best perimeter shooters shoot no better than 50% and for 3 pt shooters, 45% is very high... where as post players Fg% are in the 50s and
60s...

Dirk needs to toughen up and get a real post game.... getting locked down by guards and avoid the post is not good for guy like Dirk

[-primetime-]

:roll:
nice post...

care to name another 7 foot outside shooter for me that is on the same level as Dirk?

[-primetime-]

What the hell? Did you just say Dirk is the first big man to be a shooter?
outside shooter yes...

you know another 7 footer that hits threes like Dirk does?

[-primetime-]

BBall fans have alot of trouble watching a 7 foot dude act like he is allergic to the painted area...

give me a break...he is not "allergic to the painted area".

here is what Dirk is capable of in the paint:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH823SZGSXk

he just shines on the outside

[Rasheed1]

care to name another 7 foot outside shooter for me that is on the same level as Dirk?

7 footers dont need to shoot 3's.... they need to play close to the basket where their height gives them an edge... 7 footers dont need worry too much about outside shooting..they can add it to their game after they master their post game.... but not at the expense of their post game

[Fudge]

nice post...

care to name another 7 foot outside shooter for me that is on the same level as Dirk?

Raef LaFrentz was as good stroking it back in the day.

Care to name a 7 foot player that JUST shoots?

[Richie2k6]

outside shooter yes...

you know another 7 footer that hits threes like Dirk does?
I know other big men that do. I find it insane that you just said Dirk was the first big man shooter ever. :oldlol: Austin Croshere, Pat Garrity, Antwan Jamison, Keith Van Horn, just to name a few. Hell, Arvydas Sabonis had some three-point range. Saying Dirk was the first big man shooter is like saying Nate Robinson is the first little man dunker. Spud Webb anybody?

Dirk is the best big man shooter ever, not the first.

[-primetime-]

Raef LaFrentz was as good stroking it back in the day.

Care to name a 7 foot player that JUST shoots?
all you got is Raef?

come on...like I said, Dirk is the first of his kind

[Richie2k6]

all you got is Raef?

come on...like I said, Dirk is the first of his kind
Wrong again. Read my post.

[Rasheed1]

I know other big men that do. I find it insane that you just said Dirk was the first big man shooter ever. Austin Croshere, Pat Garrity, Antwan Jamison, Keith Van Horn, just to name a few. Hell, Arvydas Sabonis had some three-point range. Saying Dirk was the first big man shooter is like saying Nate Robinson is the first little man dunker. Spud Webb anybody?

Dirk is the best big man shooter ever, not the first.

I dont know that Dirk is the best shooting big man ever...

*Sammy Perkins was a great shooter
*Rik Smits was a great shooter(not a 3 pt shooter but he had nice range)
*Detlef Shrempf was a great shooter
*Bill Laimbeer was a great shooter

Maybe Dirk is the best 7 foot shooter, but I dont know if he was the best "big man" (I didnt compare)

[-primetime-]

I know other big men that do. I find it insane that you just said Dirk was the first big man shooter ever. :oldlol: Austin Croshere, Pat Garrity, Antwan Jamison, Keith Van Horn, just to name a few. Hell, Arvydas Sabonis had some three-point range. Saying Dirk was the first big man shooter is like saying Nate Robinson is the first little man dunker. Spud Webb anybody?

Dirk is the best big man shooter ever, not the first.
he is the first 7 footer to play at his level...all you named is a bunch of chumps

[Richie2k6]

he is the first 7 footer to play at his level...all you named is a bunch of chumps
:rolleyes:

Now you're adding things you never said at the beginning, just because you've been proven wrong. First, you said he's the first ever big man shooter, now you're saying he's the best big man shooter at his level, because you know you're wrong.

[Fudge]

he is the first 7 footer to play at his level...all you named is a bunch of chumps

:oldlol:

Wrong again, brother.

[Richie2k6]

I dont know that Dirk is the best shooting big man ever...

*Sammy Perkins was a great shooter
*Rik Smits was a great shooter(not a 3 pt shooter but he had nice range)
*Detlef Shrempf was a great shooter
*Bill Laimbeer was a great shooter

Maybe Dirk is the best 7 foot shooter, but I dont know if he was the best "big man" (I didnt compare)
You're right, it's debatable. But either way, primetime is wrong, so it's all good.

:)

[-primetime-]

You're right, it's debatable. But either way, primetime is wrong, so it's all good.

:)
are any of the guys you just listed even 7 feet?

living in Dallas do you know how many times I have heard "Dirk is the first of his kind" on the radio...hundreds

[Rasheed1]

are any of the guys you just listed even 7 feet?

living in Dallas do you know how many times I have heard "Dirk is the first of his kind" on the radio...hundreds



Rik Smits 7'4
Bill Laimbeer 6'11
Detlef Shrempf 6'10
Sammy Perkins 6'10

Dirk is not the first of his kind...there are more big men shooters, those are just the ones off the top of my head

[Richie2k6]

are any of the guys you just listed even 7 feet?
They range from 6"9 to about 7 feet.

living in Dallas do you know how many times I have heard "Dirk is the first of his kind" on the radio...hundreds
Then I guess hundreds of people are wrong. Dirk isn't the first big man shooter - that's a fact.

[-primetime-]

Then I guess hundreds of people are wrong. Dirk isn't the first big man shooter - that's a fact.
he is the first 7 foot shooter on his level - that's a fact

[Richie2k6]

he is the first 7 foot shooter on his level - that's a fact
I don't really care about that. What I care about is the fact that you said he's the first big man shooter, period. That's wrong. What's hard to understand?

[Lakers Legend#32]

After the Golden State series, Dirk is ****. Must redeem himself next season.

[-primetime-]

I don't really care about that. What I care about is the fact that you said he's the first big man shooter, period. That's wrong. What's hard to understand?
I said Dirk is the first of his kind...

as in, there has never been a 7 footer in the history of the NBA with an outside shot like his.

please stop putting words in my mouth

[ChuckOakley]

Rik Smits 7'4
Bill Laimbeer 6'11
Detlef Shrempf 6'10
Sammy Perkins 6'10

Dirk is not the first of his kind...there are more big men shooters, those are just the ones off the top of my head

All of those players were simply spot up outside shooters that could not create their own shot. I think Dirk is unique in that he is the first 7'0" SG that can create his own outside shot either with the dribble or coming off of screens. He has much better handles than any of those players, and is a better passer as well. Detlef Schrempf is the most accurate comparison of the players on the list, but even he was 2" shorter than Dirk and not the shooter Dirk was.

[TMacsOneGoodEye]

It depends if it's the regular season or post-season.

In the regular season, you could say he was top 10 and I wouldn't argue with you.

But post-season? He's probably the worst playoff player in the whole league. I would take ANYONE ELSE over him in the post-season.

Him and Mark Madsen playing 1 on 1 during the months of April-June? Madsen gonna slaughter Dirk. I don't even imagine Dirk hitting rim.

[Vragrant]

well you certainly don't use that as an excuse for Wade winning with Shaq...

all I am saying is that Wade may have been having a good year number wise but his team was losing without shaq's help....numbers aren't everything.

You fail to look at the whole picture.

When Shaq came back the roster was healthy as it had been all season and the Heat had just added Eddie Jones who was a three point threat and a superb man to man defender. He provided scoring the Heat sorely lacked earlier in the season.

When Wade went down he was dealing with jnjuries/suspensions to J Williams, Posey, Shaq, A-Walker, and injuries to Wade himself. By the time the Heat climbed back to .500 despite the injuries, Wade went down in Chicago to a wrist injury and the Heat dubsequently dropped 6 straight games and were 0=6 until until Wade came back in the lineup. To say Wade was not impacting the wins is not doing his game any justice.

Also when Shaq came back the Heat had already completed the hardest part of the schedule for the season. THe Heat had basically finished playing the Western conference teams and over 80 % of their remaining games were against Eastern Conference teams.

[Richie2k6]

I said Dirk is the first of his kind...

as in, there has never been a 7 footer in the history of the NBA with an outside shot like his.
What you were implying is that he was the first big man shooter ever, not the best big man shooter ever. You know you're wrong man, stop changing your argument.

please stop putting words in my mouth
Pull the same line I did, nice one. :rolleyes:

[-primetime-]

What you were implying is that he was the first big man shooter ever, not the best big man shooter ever. You know you're wrong man, stop changing your argument.

Pull the same line I did, nice one. :rolleyes:
my exact words..."Dirk is the first of his kind..."

and I stand by that...

so do you want to keep going back and forth with this?, if so that is fine with me, I am sittin at my computer at work and I got nothin better to do at the moment....wanna tell me again how there have been hundreds of 7 foot outside shooters like Dirk again?

[Richie2k6]

Yeah, I'm done here. You obviously don't care to respect and take into consideration other people's facts and opinions. No point in debating with someone whose too stubborn to believe otherwise, and is a Maverick's fan supporting Dirk Nowitzki. That's normal, and fans will be fans. Can't change your mind - you obviously don't want to, and you obviously like ignoring people's information and overlapping it with your poorly thought out information. Debate with me again when you accept facts and grow up a little. Thanks.

[IGOTGAME]

Top 5 players dont have their shots repeatedly thrown back in their faces by Stephen JAckson..

[-primetime-]

Yeah, I'm done here. You obviously don't care to respect and take into consideration other people's facts and opinions. No point in debating with someone whose too stubborn to believe otherwise, and is a Maverick's fan supporting Dirk Nowitzki. That's normal, and fans will be fans. Can't change your mind - you obviously don't want to, and you obviously like ignoring people's information and overlapping it with your poorly thought out information. Debate with me again when you accept facts and grow up a little. Thanks.

me?....or you?

this posted right after you listed your so called 7 foot outside shooters...



All of those players were simply spot up outside shooters that could not create their own shot. I think Dirk is unique in that he is the first 7'0" SG that can create his own outside shot either with the dribble or coming off of screens. He has much better handles than any of those players, and is a better passer as well. Detlef Schrempf is the most accurate comparison of the players on the list, but even he was 2" shorter than Dirk and not the shooter Dirk was.

the only other people's opinions that I have ignored are Fudge's little emoticons

[Richie2k6]

this posted right after you listed your so called 7 foot outside shooters...
Lord have mercy...did I say they were 7 footers? NO. I said they were BIG MEN. Read.

[Fudge]

the only other people's opinions that I have ignored are Fudge's little emoticons
:roll:

How are emoticons opinions? Well, in my case, it wasn't. I was just making a laughing stock outta you in this one. Trashbag. :oldlol:

:roll: :roll: :oldlol: :oldlol: :lol: :roll: :oldlol: :banana:

[-primetime-]

Lord have mercy...did I say they were 7 footers? NO. I said they were BIG MEN. Read.
great...so there is a 6 foot 9 guy that can shoot...good point rich

and you still ignored his post...care to respond to it?

[-primetime-]

:roll:

How are emoticons opinions? Well, in my case, it wasn't. I was just making a laughing stock outta you in this one. Trashbag. :oldlol:

:roll: :roll: :oldlol: :oldlol: :lol: :roll: :oldlol: :banana:
please die...

[Richie2k6]

great...so there is a 6 foot 9 guy that can shoot...good point rich
You're officially blind and unaware of everything. Go read. Bye.

[-primetime-]

You're officially blind and unaware of everything. Go read. Bye.
well explain to me your point then?

that other "big men" that are 6 foot 9 can shoot...fine then, if that is your point then you win...dirk is not the first player over 6 foot 9 that can shoot threes...

[Richie2k6]

that other "big men" that are 6 foot 9 can shoot...fine then, if that is your point then you win...dirk is not the first player over 6 foot 9 that can shoot threes...
Congratulations! You win! Cookie?

[Hawker]

asdf

[Fudge]

well explain to me your point then?

that other "big men" that are 6 foot 9 can shoot...fine then, if that is your point then you win...dirk is not the first player over 6 foot 9 that can shoot threes...

:party:

[BFRESH44]

:oldlol: @ 'primetime'.

[-primetime-]

Congratulations! You win! Cookie?
ok, well my point is that he is the first 7 footer that is...

when did I set the bar at 6 foot 9?

[-primetime-]

:party:
this is your life fudge....one big emoticon party when Richie says something

could you suck on his co-ck any harder?


be yourself and get your own opinions for once, grow up....

[Fudge]

this is your life fudge....one big emoticon party when Richie says something

could you suck on his co-ck any harder?


be yourself and get your own opinions for once, grow up....
Naw, brother. We just like knocking on your stupid ass all day long. It isn't really that surprising that I post right after Richie. Not a surprise at all, it's your stupidity that attracts us, bruh. Don't get it twisted.

"Be Yourself"? I don't need no damn lecture from you. :oldlol:

[ChuckOakley]

PT is right... name another player of 7'0" or higher that can shoot from anywhere on the court, off the dribble, off screens or on set shots like Dirk. That coupled with his passing does make Dirk the first of his kind and imo a top 5 (at worst top 7 player). And why does it matter if the height is 6'9" or 7'0"?.... is because 6'9" is not a unique height and you are in SF territory. 7'0" and able to do waht Dirk does is unique.

Additionally offense trumps defense by far. This is what allows players like Nash, LBJ, Dirk, AI, Anthony, Amare and others to be the best in the game despite their defensive ineptitude. If defense were so highly touted in determining individual and team succes, why is Marcus Camby (the DPOY) not a top 5, let alone top 30 player? Where do B.Wallace, Bruce Bowen, etc. rank? And if you want to add two way players (offense and defense) where do players like Battier and Artest rank? All standout defensive players, but not top tier players.
Also a lack of individual defensive talent can be masked by team defense.

[SCdac]

What is it with Mavs fans (on this board) being annoying and relentlessly stubborn?

First it's Maverickfan4life (or somesh!t), then it's Fabcasablacas, now it's Primetime...

Are you guys attached to Nowitzki at the hip or something?

Does Marc Cuban and his antics rub off on y'all?

[IGOTGAME]

Top 5 players dont get dunked on by MAtt Barnes....

[-primetime-]

PT is right... name another player of 7'0" or higher that can shoot from anywhere on the court, off the dribble, off screens or on set shots like Dirk. That coupled with his passing does make Dirk the first of his kind and imo a top 5 (at worst top 7 player). And why does it matter if the height is 6'9" or 7'0"?.... is because 6'9" is not a unique height and you are in SF territory. 7'0" and able to do waht Dirk does is unique.

Additionally offense trumps defense by far. This is what allows players like Nash, LBJ, Dirk, AI, Anthony, Amare and others to be the best in the game despite their defensive ineptitude. If defense were so highly touted in determining individual and team succes, why is Marcus Camby (the DPOY) not a top 5, let alone top 30 player? Where do B.Wallace, Bruce Bowen, etc. rank? And if you want to add two way players (offense and defense) where do players like Battier and Artest rank? All standout defensive players, but not top tier players.
Also a lack of individual defensive talent can be masked by team defense.

thank you for the back up

although I doubt rich will reply to you, Fudge might post a smiley face though.

[ChuckOakley]

What is it with Mavs fans (on this board) being annoying and relentlessly stubborn?

First it's Maverickfan4life (or somesh!t), then it's Fabcasablacas, now it's Primetime...

Are you guys attached to Nowitzki at the hip or something?

Does Marc Cuban and his antics rub off on y'all?

I'm not a Mav fan, but I find it funny that the MVP had a bad playoff series, and all of a sudden he is no longer an elite player. Alot of fair-weather fans on the board here.

I also take it Bosh, VC, and LBJ (after his finals showing) are MLE players too?

[IGOTGAME]

I'm not a Mav fan, but I find it funny that the MVP had a bad playoff series, and all of a sudden he is no longer an elite player. Alot of fair-weather fans on the board here.

I also take it Bosh, VC, and LBJ (after his finals showing) are MLE players too?

I have been saying this about Dirk for a long time...He is good when everything is going right...but when the chips are down he folds...He is a bad leader and not a winner...

Sorry I just cant see how someone can say he is better then Duncan, Kobe,Wade,Bron....And he is only debatable with Nash, and KG so I dont get how someone could def say he is top 5...

His lack of leadership is what hurts him the most to me...You dont just crumble like that twice...It wasnt a bad series he literally crumbled in the last 2 series.

[White Chocolate]

Everyone is entitled to a bad series. The Mavs were up 13 half way through they 4th quarter in game 3 of last year's Finals. They lost and never won another game that series.


This year, Dirk had another chance to redeem himself. The Mavs win 67 games and lose to the Warriors in the first round. Michael Jordan never choked like that. Larry Bird did that once, but he was already old and had chronic back problems when the Celtics were upset by the Knicks in 1990.


The only way Dirk can overcome this is with at least two championships.

[-primetime-]

Sorry I just cant see how someone can say he is better then Duncan, Kobe,Wade,Bron....And he is only debatable with Nash, and KG so I dont get how someone could def say he is top 5...

my top 5 follows your criteria...except for the injured Wade

1. Duncan
2. Kobe
3. Lebron
4. Garnett
5. Dirk
6. Nash
7. Wade

[TMacsOneGoodEye]

Primetime isn't a Mavs fan. He's a Dirk fan.

There is no such thing as a Mavs fan that still believes in Dirk.

A TRUE Mavs fan, like myself, understands that Dirk is only a regular season player, and unless we want nothing but great regular seasons, and then playoff chokes, we need to get rid of Dirk.