mj is better then kobe, but hold up for a second here and think to this

[LeCroix]

which years does a primed out kobe not win in mjs spot? i see kobe in mjs spot winning 6 or 7 rings. mj didnt have any special wins so lets get it straight. mj had no challenging rings. he did not have a challenge with clyde drexler and gary payton and jeff hornacek.

kobe wins 7 in mjs shoes because he doesnt quit the league. lebron wins 8 or 9. kareem 8. shaq wins 6. etc. you get the message. mj had no special rings did he?

[Axe]

Remember. No funds, no trolling. 😂

[Stanley Kobrick]

Tostitos chips, yes salsa

[LeCroix]

Remember. No funds, no trolling. ��

tell me the truth which is mjs challenging ring that kobe would struggle with? I need a straight answer from you for once.

[Axe]

tell me the truth which is mjs challenging ring that kobe would struggle with? I need a straight answer from you for once.
https://i.gifer.com/75zW.gif

[LeCroix]

https://i.gifer.com/75zW.gif

Be honest axe

which is mjs challenging ring that kobe would struggle with?

[Axe]

Be honest axe

which is mjs challenging ring that kobe would struggle with?
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/1b/43/301b43842dad105f79a9682c2d24f34f.gif

[MavAlbert]

1998, 1993, 1996

[Roundball_Rock]

Good question. I think the Bulls would lose with Kobe in place of MJ in 93' and 98', the weakest of those threepeat teams (probably still make the finals in 93' but lose in the ECF in 98'). However, the Bulls would win in 94' with Kobe. So you are looking at 5 rings total most likely.

[LeCroix]

Good question. I think the Bulls would lose with Kobe in place of MJ in 93' and 98', the weakest of those threepeat teams (probably still make the finals in 93' but lose in the ECF in 98'). However, the Bulls would win in 94' with Kobe. So you are looking at 5 rings total most likely.

Fair assessment it makes sense.

Mj just doesnt have the challenging moment like many others.

Kareem battling out with bird
Lebron battling out with kd, duncan, 73 win curry
Kobe battling out with boston big 3

Mj battling out with...clyde drexler? Just dont fly homie

[LeCroix]

But he can win in 94 or 95 as well.

Mj quit right? Kobe would not quit the league in that manner choice

[LeCroix]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/1b/43/301b43842dad105f79a9682c2d24f34f.gif

I have you now Axe

[Axe]

I have you now Axe
Lol what do you mean? It takes a rational person to take me seriously anyway and unfortunately, you ain't one of them. So... 😂

[Roundball_Rock]

Fair assessment it makes sense.

Mj just doesnt have the challenging moment like many others.

Kareem battling out with bird
Lebron battling out with kd, duncan, 73 win curry
Kobe battling out with boston big 3

Mj battling out with...clyde drexler? Just dont fly homie

A banged up Drexler too. They didn't mention it in the doc, nor do they mention it elsewhere, but his knee was hurt...so the one time he faced a superstar SG the other guy was hurt.


'Last Dance' didn't bother to mention Clyde Drexler's injury prior '92 Finals

It's always important to remember when you're watching a documentary that you sometimes don't hear the whole story. You hear what the maker of the project wants you to hear.

Watching "The Last Dance" Sunday night, taking note of how much joy it gave Michael Jordan -- and some of his pals -- to see him work over Clyde Drexler in the 1992 NBA Finals, they weren't very fair to Drexler.

Just in passing, it might have been nice to point out that the Trail Blazer guard was already having a great deal of pain in his right knee, which would cause him to undergo surgery that summer -- after the Finals and the Olympics.

https://sports.yahoo.com/last-dance-didnt-bother-mention-060413150.html

After that surgery Drexler was never again a superstar player, although he remained a star for several more years.

91' would be his signature finals match up then, but Magic's team was clearly outgunned and Worthy and Scott got hurt in the series. (Worthy, their leading scorer, came in banged up.) So whatever chance they had was further reduced by bad luck.

[Axe]

So it was basically Jordan's fault or so it seemed that they were injured during their finals runs, huh? Okay, all the more to spread the crab mentality you all have in terms of talking about his championship runs. Just another typical norm lmao. But we apply this to other championship runs aside from him anyway, so...

[AlternativeAcc.]

Kobe likely wins more rings than MJ on the 90's Bulls

So does Arenas, Harden, R. Allen, Iverson just to name a few

[Vino24]

Iverson crossed MJ so bad he retired. Imagine if Iverson had the luxury of playing against car mechanics for his entire career

[LeCroix]

A banged up Drexler too. They didn't mention it in the doc, nor do they mention it elsewhere, but his knee was hurt...so the one time he faced a superstar SG the other guy was hurt.



https://sports.yahoo.com/last-dance-didnt-bother-mention-060413150.html

After that surgery Drexler was never again a superstar player, although he remained a star for several more years.

91' would be his signature finals match up then, but Magic's team was clearly outgunned and Worthy and Scott got hurt in the series. (Worthy, their leading scorer, came in banged up.) So whatever chance they had was further reduced by bad luck.

Im not even being mean, mj is a top 3 goat too but his rings are not challenging. I dig deep and find maybe 96 was tough? But Gary and Shawn never got to the Finals or Conf. Finals ever again. (Im not gonna include Lakers run with Shaq).

So gary p and shawn k were not thaaaat great. And then the Bulls had just snagged Rodman and won 72 games. So itsa weird spot to think to.

[LeCroix]

Kobe likely wins more rings than MJ on the 90's Bulls

So does Arenas, Harden, R. Allen, Iverson just to name a few
I heard its all aboit scoring so yes, they would all do it easily. I think the tough year is 93.

Michael had 15 years and 1 was tough

[Roundball_Rock]

Im not even being mean, mj is a top 3 goat too but his rings are not challenging.

Yeah but in his defense all he could do is play the available comp. I just think the context of having the one super team of the era needs to be weighed when we assess his team results. People, as you have seen in several threads, act like MJ was destined to win 6 rings no matter what.

It is a shame he kept retiring. He missed Hakeem in 94' and he wasn't there when the Lakers and Spurs rose with Shaq/Kobe and Duncan in 99' and 00'. By the time he came back in 02' he was no longer an elite player.


But Gary and Shawn never got to the Finals or Conf. Finals ever again.

They technically did it in 93' too but Payton was a 14/3/5 player at that point. Ricky Pierce was the leading scorer and Schrempft was not on that team. The core of the 96' team was put in place in 94' and that team only got past the second round once. In fact they couldn't even get out the first round in 94' and 95'.

[jstern]

It's hard to tell. I think Kobe being as skilled as he was could win around 3 to 5. Assuming he doesn't retire.

The thing that makes Jordan the GOAT is that ability to step it up at a level that is truly unique to him. For example, 1998, Pippen not at a 100%, and the possibility of a game 7 with out him. There's a human tendency to just slow down due to exhaustion, or get a little nervous when things are truly on the line. Jordan scores, then steals the ball from Karl Malone, doesn't call time out, then does a penetrating jab step, step back jumper. I don't count rings, but little extra pushes like that are the reason why Jordan is 6-0. That would had been an extra opportunity for Utah in a game 7 at home, and Jordan was able to stop that.

A better example is the flu game. That would had been a loss to virtually all all time greats, leading to a game 7, and another chance of losing those Finals. That mind to just push through is just not normal.

Take Lebron, one of the greatest players of all time, but still human. Playing great against Indiana, I think in 2018, a chance to finish them off in Game 6, and then he had one of those games where he's listless and visibly quits, and people start calling him LeQuit. Luckily he stepped it up for game 7, but he clearly had some anxiety in that game 6. He has had many of those types of games, and those little things could be the difference between being 6 - 0 and not.

Take the JR Smith game, Lebron is only human and he lost it in overtime, making dramatic body language movements and pouting on the bench before overtime. Put Jordan in Lebron's place, it would had been a retribution, revenge type of game. A refuse to lose at all cost type of, hyper focused, I'm going to kill you type of game.

So Kobe, being a top ten player of all time, with a style similar to Jordan, and being experience in the triangle would have the best chances of winning championships if you just drop him in Jordan's place, but not 6-0 because he's not quite at that Jordan focus level that I mentioned, that was required for him being 6-0.

[LeCroix]

It's hard to tell. I think Kobe being as skilled as he was could win around 3 to 5. Assuming he doesn't retire.

The thing that makes Jordan the GOAT is that ability to step it up at a level that is truly unique to him. For example, 1998, Pippen not at a 100%, and the possibility of a game 7 with out him. There's a human tendency to just slow down due to exhaustion, or get a little nervous when things are truly on the line. Jordan scores, then steals the ball from Karl Malone, doesn't call time out, then does a penetrating jab step, step back jumper. I don't count rings, but little extra pushes like that are the reason why Jordan is 6-0. That would had been an extra opportunity for Utah in a game 7 at home, and Jordan was able to stop that.

A better example is the flu game. That would had been a loss to virtually all all time greats, leading to a game 7, and another chance of losing those Finals. That mind to just push through is just not normal.

Take Lebron, one of the greatest players of all time, but still human. Playing great against Indiana, I think in 2018, a chance to finish them off in Game 6, and then he had one of those games where he's listless and visibly quits, and people start calling him LeQuit. Luckily he stepped it up for game 7, but he clearly had some anxiety in that game 6. He has had many of those types of games, and those little things could be the difference between being 6 - 0 and not.

Take the JR Smith game, Lebron is only human and he lost it in overtime, making dramatic body language movements and pouting on the bench before overtime. Put Jordan in Lebron's place, it would had been a retribution, revenge type of game. A refuse to lose at all cost type of, hyper focused, I'm going to kill you type of game.

So Kobe, being a top ten player of all time, with a style similar to Jordan, and being experience in the triangle would have the best chances of winning championships if you just drop him in Jordan's place, but not 6-0 because he's not quite at that Jordan focus level that I mentioned, that was required for him being 6-0.

Worst long post I ever saw.

1st off, only 3?

And mentioning leborns 52-8-8 finals game as a way to take bron down? Yikes buddy boi

[LeCroix]

Yeah but in his defense all he could do is play the available comp. I just think the context of having the one super team of the era needs to be weighed when we assess his team results. People, as you have seen in several threads, act like MJ was destined to win 6 rings no matter what.

It is a shame he kept retiring. He missed Hakeem in 94' and he wasn't there when the Lakers and Spurs rose with Shaq/Kobe and Duncan in 99' and 00'. By the time he came back in 02' he was no longer an elite player.



They technically did it in 93' too but Payton was a 14/3/5 player at that point. Ricky Pierce was the leading scorer and Schrempft was not on that team. The core of the 96' team was put in place in 94' and that team only got past the second round once. In fact they couldn't even get out the first round in 94' and 95'.

In 93 yes, but since 96 nope

1 hit wonder
1 finals showing, no rings, terrible results

[jstern]

Worst long post I ever saw.

1st off, only 3?

And mentioning leborns 52-8-8 finals game as a way to take bron down? Yikes buddy boi

I realized that these are tough times for you with your dislike for Jordan and the current attention Jordan is getting with The Last Dance. I'm seeing it all over YouTube, people who really love Lebron are going crazy coming with all sort of way to try and discredit Jordan. So I won't hold it against you.

[Mr Feeny]

A banged up Drexler too. They didn't mention it in the doc, nor do they mention it elsewhere, but his knee was hurt...so the one time he faced a superstar SG the other guy was hurt.



https://sports.yahoo.com/last-dance-didnt-bother-mention-060413150.html

After that surgery Drexler was never again a superstar player, although he remained a star for several more years.

91' would be his signature finals match up then, but Magic's team was clearly outgunned and Worthy and Scott got hurt in the series. (Worthy, their leading scorer, came in banged up.) So whatever chance they had was further reduced by bad luck.

Jordan has pain in his 93, 96, and 98 finals. It doesn't mean he was injured. Very few people are pain free.

The desperation is a little sad.

[86Celtics]

Kobe likely wins more rings than MJ on the 90's Bulls

So does Arenas, Harden, R. Allen, Iverson just to name a few

Harden and Iverson playing in the triangle. This alt is truly the personification of stupidity.

The irony is that James wins less than 6 since he isn't skilled enough to play off ball and his bully ball style wouldn't be as effective in the nineties

[Rysio]

96-98 he would easily win all 3. 91 and 92 as well only 93 is questionable.

[Mr Feeny]

96-98 he would easily win all 3. 91 and 92 as well only 93 is questionable.

He wouldnt win a single one because he was a 40% finals performer. He wet the bed on the biggest stage. And never won a title without the best front court in the league.

So he would lose. Lebron, on the other hand....

[Rysio]

He wouldnt win a single one because he was a 40% finals performer. He wet the bed on the biggest stage. And never won a title without the best front court in the league.

So he would lose. Lebron, on the other hand....

Jordan is a 42% shooter in 96-98 finals lol he only feasted on weak d sun's and blazers.

[Mr Feeny]

Jordan is a 42% shooter in 96-98 finals lol he only feasted on weak d sun's and blazers.

Do you feel the need to make stuff up?

[Rysio]

Do you feel the need to make stuff up?

OK 43 lol

[Mr Feeny]

OK 43 lol

Just post his statlines instead of making figures up like a typical Kobe fanboy.

[Phoenix]

Kobe against the physical defenses of the Sixers(25ppg on 42%), the Pistons(23ppg on 38%), and the Celtics in 08( 26ppg on 41%) and again in 10(29ppg on 41%) should at least clue you in somewhat as to how he would perform against those Pistons and Knicks teams MJ ran into from 88-93.

[Docs Orders]

https://a.scpr.org/i/2b2a1f8df4de8e13817f8c4022c89c43/38710-full.jpg
:lol

[Phoenix]

The little bitch above wakes up every morning, tampon fully drenched, begging that I post. Got this mod-affiliated account literally skull-raped.

[Mr Feeny]

:lol

He's right though. How many alts do you have. Don't you sleep? How do you NOT get bored of doing this?

[Roundball_Rock]

In 93 yes, but since 96 nope

1 hit wonder
1 finals showing, no rings, terrible results

Easily the biggest underachievers of that era. They had huge win totals but lost in the first round twice (as a 63 and 57 win team) in fact.


The thing that makes Jordan the GOAT is that ability to step it up at a level that is truly unique to him. For example, 1998, Pippen not at a 100%, and the possibility of a game 7 with out him.

What happened in the migraine game or when Pippen got a concussion 1 minute into Game 6 of the 89' ECF?

You could cherry pick for LeBron too. Bosh was in and out of the lineup in the 2012 ECF. The Cavs won 2 in a row against the Warriors in the 2015 finals after Irving got hurt (joining Love in being out).


Jordan has pain in his 93, 96, and 98 finals

Drexler's career was never the same after his 92' injury. It is ridiculous to compare Drexler's situation to MJ's, especially since MJ retired after two of those seasons.

[warriorfan]

He's right though. How many alts do you have. Don't you sleep? How do you NOT get bored of doing this?

He’s in a wheelchair. He doesn’t really have much choice.

[WhiteKyrie]

Possible 1991
Probable 1992
LOSS in 1993
Definite 1994
LOSS in 1995
Definite 1996
Probable 1997
LOSS in 1998

2 Definite
1 Possible
2 Probable

So anywhere from 2 - 5

[AussieSteve]

He's not beating the suns in 93.

Barkley >

[knicksman]

that just means that players like jordan are proven players. Meanwhile I couldnt think of a lineup built around lebron that could win a chip. Maybe thats why he formed superteams

[3ball]

tell me the truth which is mjs challenging ring that kobe would struggle with? I need a straight answer from you for once.

MJ's rings required higher volume and efficiency than Kobe's rings, because Pippen produced a lot less than Shaq and Pau, especially in the clutch..

And MJ's rings required higher team ORtg's than Kobe's triangles produced

[Roundball_Rock]

they wouldn't lose with 2006 kobe,he averged 35 a game way more than jordan

Jordan averaged 37.

[LeCroix]

He's not beating the suns in 93.

Barkley >

Okay okay, but 94 or 95 then? Or 90?

[AussieSteve]

Okay okay, but 94 or 95 then? Or 90?

94 they would win. 95 without Ho Grant? I'm not sure.

90? No. Kobe was not as good as MJ. If MJ couldn't win, how would Kobe?

[3ball]

The only rings any player outside of MJ could win is 1991 and ,1996

Those are the only rings that didn't require a level of volume that no one else ever took or shot well at.. the volume/efficiency requirement in 92', 93, 96', and 97' is beyond what anyone else ever did

MJ is the only efficient, high volume player ever

[LeCroix]

The only rings any player outside of MJ could win is 1991 and ,1996

Those are the only rings that didn't require a level of volume that no one else ever took or shot well at.. the volume/efficiency requirement in 92', 93, 96', and 97' is beyond what anyone else ever did

MJ is the only efficient, high volume player ever

Are you off the rocker?

92, 97, 98 are his weakest rings. His only good ring is 93

Kobe wins 5 of 6
Prob wins in 90 or 98 if he doesnt quit so 6 in total

[Soundwave]

On the flipside, Jordan wins like 7-8 titles with Shaq and another 3 with Gasol + Odom.

I mean Jordan having Shaq right from his rookie season would be disgusting.

Kobe is a great player but he's also the only player in the top 10 who was gift wrapped another top 5 player in his prime right from day 1.

[HoopsNY]

This isn't really a fair post. Which Kobe are we talking about? I don't think those Bulls teams win with 1999-00, 2000-01, 2003-04, or 2007-08 Kobe in every year. He had some pretty bad finals performances and that's something that is consistently overlooked when we talk about Kobe's legacy.

[Soundwave]

There's also a fair chance Kobe Bryant age 25-28 wins 2, probably even 3 titles with Wade and Bosh.

[Bankaii]

On the flipside, Jordan wins like 7-8 titles with Shaq and another 3 with Gasol + Odom.

I mean Jordan having Shaq right from his rookie season would be disgusting.

Kobe is a great player but he's also the only player in the top 10 who was gift wrapped another top 5 player in his prime right from day 1.
Magic Johnson?
Kareem was older but still in his prime.

[Roundball_Rock]

Magic Johnson?
Kareem was older but still in his prime.

Yup and Kareem was THE best player in the NBA at the time. Shaq was top 3 but not #1 when Kobe arrived.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe does not win in '92 (doesn't get past either the Knicks or Blazers), '93 (Knicks/Suns), or '96 (Magic, Sonics). In the same 6 years MJ won titles, I see Kobe winning 2-4 maximum.

[PoutinPippin]

Kobe against the physical defenses of the Sixers(25ppg on 42%), the Pistons(23ppg on 38%), and the Celtics in 08( 26ppg on 41%) and again in 10(29ppg on 41%) should at least clue you in somewhat as to how he would perform against those Pistons and Knicks teams MJ ran into from 88-93.
This, totally this. He always struggled against physical Eastern Conference defenses. And those Pistons, Knicks teams were more physical than any of those squads, with better rim protection.

That's also why Wade did better against those same teams Kobe struggled with. Why? Because he was a penetrator, slashed a defense off the dribble to death to finish at the rim with a strong body and shoulders yet could handle physicality.

Peak Jordan 89 - 93, AKA the best player ever, was like the best of Wade, and best of Kobe combined.


Kobe does not win in '92 (doesn't get past either the Knicks or Blazers), '93 (Knicks/Suns), or '96 (Magic, Sonics). In the same 6 years MJ won titles, I see Kobe winning 2-4 maximum.
Where have you been, bro? Good to see you.

Rest of your post, I agree with. But also add your opinions if he was the 94 and 95 Bulls.

[Vino24]

Shaq and MJ wouldn’t even last as long as Kobe and Shaq. MJ HAD to be the man. No way is he letting Shaq be the man of the team.

[LAL]

Kobe against the physical defenses of the Sixers(25ppg on 42%), the Pistons(23ppg on 38%), and the Celtics in 08( 26ppg on 41%) and again in 10(29ppg on 41%) should at least clue you in somewhat as to how he would perform against those Pistons and Knicks teams MJ ran into from 88-93.
Kobe beat 24 50+ win teams in the playoffs out West as a SG going up against taller defenders and zone defenses, y'all can talk all day about his shooting in the finals, but he was from a different planet in all his playoffs series, a true beast if you watched him.. so who knows what MJ would've done in those same playofs without that illegal 3 second rule and posting up hersey hawkins, hornaceck and terry porter on an island in the weaker conference, who knows? But watching Kobe sure gave me a clue what he would've done against MJ's competition at the SG ppsition.

[PoutinPippin]

Kobe beat 24 50+ win teams in the playoffs out West as a SG going up against taller defenders and zone defenses, y'all can talk all day about his shooting in the finals, but he was from a different planet in all his playoffs series, a true beast if you watched him.. so who knows what MJ would've done in those same playofs without that illegal 3 second rule and posting up hersey hawkins, hornaceck and terry porter on an island in the weaker conference, who knows? But watching Kobe sure gave me a clue what he would've done against MJ's competition at the SG ppsition.

First of all those 50+ win teams Kobe "beat" ... immediately remove 1998 to at least 2000 for Kobe. Maybe even 2001 - 2004 because he wasn't even definitively the leader or best player on his team.

Mike didn't only face those guys, that's disingenuous. You only named short players. So please. Also, Porter didn't guard Mike at all.

You missed tall, athletic, or quality man defenders like:

Sidney Moncrief
Alvin Robertson
Dumars
Rodman
Gerald Wilkins
Clyde Drexler
Cliff Robinson
Stacey Augmon
Dan Majerle
Tony Dumas
Byron Russell
Shandon Anderson
Anthony Mason
Doc Rivers


Mind you a lot of teams had to do that with PGs or smaller guards to try and negate Michael's superior foot speed or quickness getting to the rim. The point you're attempting to make is stupid.

Also, Kobe struggled with small guards who negated dribble penetration. Eric Snow, Tony Allen, etc but also long guys who could contest his pension for taking contested shots IE Posey, Prince

The East in the 90s was the superior conference too. Especially defensively.

[tpols]

On the flipside, Jordan wins like 7-8 titles with Shaq and another 3 with Gasol + Odom.

MJ has shown nowhere near the longevity to win 10+ titles... nor is it even remotely feasable given the 4 year hiatus in the middle playing with smush parker.

it's just a ridiculous assertion to think hed be winning 10/12 titles during his prime years.

[Rysio]

The only rings any player outside of MJ could win is 1991 and ,1996

Those are the only rings that didn't require a level of volume that no one else ever took or shot well at.. the volume/efficiency requirement in 92', 93, 96', and 97' is beyond what anyone else ever did

MJ is the only efficient, high volume player ever

Jordan those years 33 ppg on 55%ts

Kobe in 06 35 ppg on 56%ts

[Roundball_Rock]

This alt account is out there listing power forwards like Cliff Robinson and Anthony Mason. :oldlol:

[PoutinPippin]

This alt account is out there listing power forwards like Cliff Robinson and Anthony Mason. :oldlol:
They both guarded Mike.

[Phoenix]

Kobe beat 24 50+ win teams in the playoffs out West as a SG going up against taller defenders and zone defenses, y'all can talk all day about his shooting in the finals, but he was from a different planet in all his playoffs series, a true beast if you watched him.. so who knows what MJ would've done in those same playofs without that illegal 3 second rule and posting up hersey hawkins, hornaceck and terry porter on an island in the weaker conference, who knows? But watching Kobe sure gave me a clue what he would've done against MJ's competition at the SG ppsition.

I did see him, his entire career. I know what he did in the west playoffs, and in my earlier post I laid out what he did in several finals. Those finals numbers aren't fictitious. No, those listed performances are not 'from a different planet'. You namedrop Hersey Hawkins, Hornachek and Porter but I wasn't talking about those teams, was I? I specified the Pistons and Knicks for the purpose of saying those physical defenses would have caused Kobe problems, as they caused MJ problems. Difference is Kobe wasn't the slasher/finisher MJ was and would have employed a mostly perimeter-shooting based attack. If he gets red hot with the jumper he can get a few games off that but over a seven game series that's a much steeper hill.

[tpols]

If Kobe had a consistent top 5-10 player over his whole career like MJ did it would have been much better than having a egomaniac top 1 player and soft top 20 player with shit in between. (at his peak)

Give Kobe a pippen type for his entire prime... like say, a peak grant hill from '00 to '10 and they probably win 6 titles too.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I don't know about 6 titles, but Kobe and Pippen would've made a great tandem.

Co-sign.

[LAL]

First of all those 50+ win teams Kobe "beat" ... immediately remove 1998 to at least 2000 for Kobe. Maybe even 2001 - 2004 because he wasn't even definitively the leader or best player on his team.
Yeah let's erase those first 4 years since 2000, lol, why did he even bother? Magic having Kareem, Worthy, Kareem and a superteam is cool i guess. It was Kobe and Shaq carrying bums out West.

Mike didn't only face those guys, that's disingenuous. You only named short players. So please. Also, Porter didn't guard Mike at all. Porter didn't guard MJ in the finals couple of times? Mat malloney? David Wesley? Rex Chapman? Voshon lenard? Starks? Etc

You missed tall, athletic, or quality man defenders like:

Sidney Moncrief
Alvin Robertson
Dumars
Rodman
Gerald Wilkins
Clyde Drexler
Cliff Robinson
Stacey Augmon
Dan Majerle
Tony Dumas
Byron Russell
Shandon Anderson
Anthony Mason
Doc Rivers
Not all great defenders, some even funny. How many times was he guarded by mason besides 98 playoffs, where he did pretty good job? How many times has he faced Dumas? Perimeter bench players today are also tall and athletic? You're just naming mostly taller players compared to what he usually faces, modern defenders are faster and taller than those days, plus add the fact he's usually on an island with those guys, no zone defense, bullshit illegal defense rule making life easier for Mike too.. i would always imagine kobe in those situations, and i can show and point that shit out on every mj highlight clip. 90s were easier for a SG. Still the goat.

Doc Rivers?



Mind you a lot of teams had to do that with PGs or smaller guards to try and negate Michael's superior foot speed or quickness getting to the rim. The point you're attempting to make is stupid.
So it's true





Also, Kobe struggled with small guards who negated dribble penetration. Eric Snow, Tony Allen, etc but also long guys who could contest his pension for taking contested shots IE Posey, Prince
Eric Snow? Tony Allen was one of the best defenders of all time, not that short. Prince didn't do shit without 04 pistons.. kobe killed him after that, even has 2 game winners on his head. But yeah longer defenders are always harder, duh.


The East in the 90s was the superior conference too. Especially defensively.
So you decided kobe's first 4 years during the 3 peat are worthless and you also decided that 90s east was the better and harder conference than 00's Western Conference?

[Phoenix]

If Kobe had a consistent top 5-10 player over his whole career like MJ did it would have been much better than having a egomaniac top 1 player and soft top 20 player with shit in between. (at his peak)

Give Kobe a pippen type for his entire prime... like say, a peak grant hill from '00 to '10 and they probably win 6 titles too.

MJ didn't have a top 5-10 player his entire career. He had one from 91-98. You're gonna need the world's smallest violin for Kobe being 'cursed' with the absolute prime and peak of Shaq for 8 years.

Second, pairing him with another perimeter star between 2000 and 2010 doesn't mean he's going to get past all of those Spurs teams, the Shaq-Wade Heat, the 04 Pistons, or the 2008 Celtics. I mean, if Shaq and Kobe aren't playing together then the entire first part of the 00's unfolds differently. You're also weirdly omitting that Grant Hill had 6 years before breaking his ankle and never being the same. Unless you're concocting some fairy-tale that Grant stays healthy but we're going down a deep hole with those kinds of hypotheticals. Odd to think he would make for a more successful pairing with Grant than with Shaq, considering they are a strong candidate for being the goat duo at their best. I see no way Kobe and Grant Hill( or another perimeter guy on that level) achieve greater success in the time frame you're referencing.

[LAL]

I did see him, his entire career. I know what he did in the west playoffs, and in my earlier post I laid out what he did in several finals. Those finals numbers aren't fictitious. No, those listed performances are not 'from a different planet'. You namedrop Hersey Hawkins, Hornachek and Porter but I wasn't talking about those teams, was I? I specified the Pistons and Knicks for the purpose of saying those physical defenses would have caused Kobe problems, as they caused MJ problems. Difference is Kobe wasn't the slasher/finisher MJ was and would have employed a mostly perimeter-shooting based attack. If he gets red hot with the jumper he can get a few games off that but over a seven game series that's a much steeper hill.
Those playoffs runs in his prime and title years, were "out of this planet." To me, i was in awe of the level of play. So i don't put too much weight on bad fg % in a winning finals series. The others were bad like, detroit 04 and 08 celtics but thats the knock in his career when comparing him to Jordan's 6/6.. but it doesn't tell me how he would've played against 80s pistons or early 90s knicks because MJ also took advantage of smaller players and the 3 second rule, which kobe didn't have, maybe Kobe would've done better against dumars or starks because he played pretty tough competition himself and was GREAT?

[LAL]

MJ didn't have a top 5-10 player his entire career. He had one from 91-98. You're gonna need the world's smallest violin for Kobe being 'cursed' with the absolute prime and peak of Shaq for 8 years.
Kobe's prime started in 2000 and ended 2013, shaq's prime was 94 to 2002 (and 05).


Second, pairing him with another perimeter star between 2000 and 2010 doesn't mean he's going to get past all of those Spurs teams, the Shaq-Wade Heat, the 04 Pistons, or the 2008 Celtics. I mean, if Shaq and Kobe aren't playing together then the entire first part of the 00's unfolds differently.
Probably same for MJ and Scottie if they played those years.

[tpols]

MJ didn't have a top 5-10 player his entire career. He had one from 91-98. You're gonna need the world's smallest violin for Kobe being 'cursed' with the absolute prime and peak of Shaq for 8 years.

Second, pairing him with another perimeter star between 2000 and 2010 doesn't mean he's going to get past all of those Spurs teams, the Shaq-Wade Heat, the 04 Pistons, or the 2008 Celtics. I mean, if Shaq and Kobe aren't playing together then the entire first part of the 00's unfolds differently. You're also weirdly omitting that Grant Hill had 6 years before breaking his ankle and never being the same. Unless you're concocting some fairy-tale that Grant stays healthy but we're going down a deep hole with those kinds of hypotheticals. Odd to think he would make for a more successful pairing with Grant than with Shaq, considering they are a strong candidate for being the goat duo at their best. I see no way Kobe and Grant Hill( or another perimeter guy on that level) achieve greater success in the time frame you're referencing.

im using a healthy prime grant hill in the analogy... like Pippen was for 90% of the time.

Furthermore beating the spurs would never be a problem. Kobe did that with or without shaq and was known as the spurs killer.

Shaq wasnt shaq when he won with Wade btw. Dirk and josh howard had them on the ropes before the FTs. Kobe and a prime grant hill have easy work by comparison.

Pau got totally punked by garnett in '08 (and in general). a prime Grant Hill couldnt do worse if he tried, and it was generally a close series.

[Phoenix]

Those playoffs runs in his prime and title years, were "out of this planet." To me, i was in awe of the level of play. So i don't put too much weight on bad fg % in a winning finals series. The others were bad like, detroit 04 and 08 celtics but thats the knock in his career when comparing him to Jordan's 6/6.. but it doesn't tell me how he would've played against 80s pistons or early 90s knicks because MJ also took advantage of smaller players and the 3 second rule, which kobe didn't have, maybe Kobe would've done better against dumars or starks because he played pretty tough competition himself and was GREAT?

Let's just agree that we have different standards for the term. You arguing that Kobe doing 25ppg on 41% against the Sixers is otherworldly would be like me arguing that MJ doing 27ppg on 42% against the Sonics is. Neither are true. I'm not making the argument that Kobe would struggle against the shooting guards MJ faced in the finals. I'm saying he is going to have his struggles against the physical frontlines on those Knicks and Piston squads between 88-93. I've spoken about the physicality of those teams, and I believe Kobe would have his struggles for THAT reason, and you're talking about the shooting guard matchups. So my point has been lost on you from the get-go.




Kobe's prime started in 2000 and ended 2013, shaq's prime was 94 to 2002 (and 05).

Which makes simply plugging Kobe into MJ's spot not a simple apples to apples comparison. Let's first start with the reality that 2001 Kobe was the first version of him that you could even entertain for this discussion. Kobe at his best never got to the level of 90-93 MJ so the logic of a worse version of that MJ equalling his results is lost on me. We don't even know how Kobe, from a chemistry standpoint, fits with Scottie or the rest of the team. We do this really dumb thing of swapping players like they're lego pieces. It's not that simple.




Probably same for MJ and Scottie if they played those years.


Nah.

[Phoenix]

im using a healthy prime grant hill in the analogy... like Pippen was for 90% of the time.

Furthermore beating the spurs would never be a problem. Kobe did that with or without shaq and was known as the spurs killer.

Shaq wasnt shaq when he won with Wade btw. Dirk and josh howard had them on the ropes before the FTs. Kobe and a prime grant hill have easy work by comparison.

Pau got totally punked by garnett in '08 (and in general). a prime Grant Hill couldnt do worse if he tried, and it was generally a close series.

I had a feeling you was going to refer to Kobe beating the Spurs without Shaq, something he did once( 2008) and that wasn't the best version of that team. You're acting like teams that win 6 rings or hell, even 3, grow on trees. Winning championships is hard. Winning 3 in a decade has happened 4 times in 70 years( 60's Celtics, 90's Bulls, 00s Lakers, 10s Warriors). But you think Kobe and Grant are winning 6? I'm not even arguing that Kobe couldn't win any titles with Chicago. I think peak Kobe in that 2nd 3peat wins rings. But Kobe and Grant winning 6 in the 2000's? Or sliding Kobe onto 88 to 93 Bulls and thinking all the results end up the same? Nah, I can't go there with you.

[LAL]

Let's just agree that we have different standards for the term. You arguing that Kobe doing 25ppg on 41% against the Sixers is otherworldly would be like me arguing that MJ doing 27ppg on 42% against the Sonics is. Neither are true. I'm not making the argument that Kobe would struggle against the shooting guards MJ faced in the finals. I'm saying he is going to have his struggles against the physical frontlines on those Knicks and Piston squads between 88-93. I've spoken about the physicality of those teams, and I believe Kobe would have his struggles for THAT reason, and you're talking about the shooting guard matchups. So my point has been lost on you from the get-go.
I'm not talking about the finals, the road to the finals, he was otherworldly against tougher competition in all his playoffs series, on both ends, and end of games.





Which makes simply plugging Kobe into MJ's spot not a simple apples to appled comparison. Let's first start with the reality that 2001 Kobe was the first version of him that you could even entertain for this discussion. Kobe at his best never got to the level of 91-93 MJ so the logic of a worse version of that MJ equalling his results is lost on him. We don't even know how Kobe, from a chemistry standpoint, fits with Scottie or the rest of the team. We do this really dumb thing of swapping players like they're lego pieces. It's not that simple.
We don't know what 01 or a 03 kobe would've done in place of MJ in 91 or 93? He didn't face what MJ faced in those years, what makes you think 03 kobe wouldn't have same numbers as a number 1 option against that competition? Against those smaller defenders and 3 second rule. I never debate about modern players playing in 80's and 90s, but you make it sound like you do based on a couple of bad finals performances?

nah
Ookay..

[Phoenix]

I'm not talking about the finals, the road to the finals, he was otherworldly against tougher competition in all his playoffs series, on both ends, and end of games.



Kobe didn't play any teams with the physicality of those Knicks and Pistons squads. And when he played any defensive squads on that level, like the 04 Pistons and 08 Celtics, he lost and struggled in terms of scoring efficiency in the process. The league simply wasn't allowing it in the 00s. The point of using some of Kobe's finals where he struggled was to draw a connection between his dip in performance against physical eastern finalists like the 01 Sixers, 04 Pistons and 08/10 Celtics, and to extrapolate how he would then fare going against the physicality that the 80's Pistons and early 90's Knicks presented. It feels like you're tap-dancing around what is a fairly simple point to follow.



We don't know what 01 or a 03 kobe would've done in place of MJ in 91 or 93? He didn't face what MJ faced in those years, what makes you think 03 kobe wouldn't have same numbers as a number 1 option against that competition? Against those smaller defenders and 3 second rule. I never debate about modern players playing in 80's and 90s, but you make it sound like you do based on a couple of bad finals performances?



I feel like you're being obtuse. As good as Kobe was in 2001 or 2003, he was not the overall force than MJ was. He just wasn't. You keep going on the 'smaller' defenders when I've already said multiple times that it is the PHYSICAL FRONTLINES that I feel Kobe would struggle with. Because peak MJ had his struggles with those frontlines, and peak MJ was a better player and was more altruistically equipped to handle those front-lines. I'm talking about the physicality of the frontlines of those Knicks and Pistons teams, and you're rambling on about shooting guards. At this point you either have a comprehension issue or you're just deliberately sidestepping my point to argue about something else. I've never said Kobe wouldn't play well against the shooting guards MJ faced. Now that I say that point again, and for your convenience I bolded and underlined it, let's see if you again attempt to bring up about MJs shooting guard competition when I'm not talking about that.

[LAL]

Kobe didn't play any teams with the physicality of those Knicks and Pistons squads. And when he played any defensive squads on that level, like the 04 Pistons and 08 Celtics, he lost and struggled in terms of scoring efficiency in the process. The league simply wasn't allowing it in the 00s. The point of using some of Kobe's finals where he struggled was to draw a connection between his dip in performance against physical eastern finalists like the 01 Sixers, 04 Pistons and 08/10 Celtics, and to extrapolate how he would then fair going against the physicality that the 80's Pistons and early 90's Knicks presented. It feels like you're tap-dancing around what is a fairly simple point to follow.


I feel like you're being obtuse. As good as Kobe was in 2001 or 2003, he was not the overall force than MJ was. He just wasn't. You keep going on the 'smaller' defenders when I've already said multiple times that it is the PHYSICAL FRONTLINES that I feel Kobe would struggle with. Because peak MJ had his struggles with those frontlines, and peak MJ was a better player and was more altruistically equipped to handle those front-lines. I'm talking about the physicality of the frontlines of those Knicks and Pistons teams, and you're rambling on about shooting guards. At this point you either have a comprehension issue or you're just deliberately sidestepping my point to argue about something else. I've never said Kobe wouldn't play well against the shooting guards MJ faced. Now that I say that point again, and for your convenience I bolded and underlined it, let's see if you again attempt to bring up about MJs shooting guard competition when I'm not talking about that.


What you don't seem to understand is that kobe didn't just struggle because they were physical, but they were all taller and great defenders too playing in a zone defensive setup and kobe's injuries. I don't see the 80s pistons as better or more physical team than 04 pistons? Or 08 celtics? 93 knicks? Lol. Add to that no zone defense? Kobe is going to struggle because they foul harder after beating his man with ease again?? You're too focused on kobe's struggles against greater teams that you couldn't see with MJ thanks to competition difference. How would MJ have done in those situations like 08 celtics? Since you know what kobe would've done. Those Western Conference playoffs runs don't tell you anything?

[Phoenix]

MJ was a better player and was more altruistically equipped to handle those front-lines.

That should say 'athletically' equipped. Damn autocorrect....

[Phoenix]

What you don't seem to understand is that kobe didn't just struggle because they were physical, but they were all taller and great defenders too playing in a zone defensive setup and kobe's injuries. I don't see the 80s pistons as better or more physical team than 04 pistons? Or 08 celtics? 93 knicks? Lol. Add to that no zone defense? Kobe is going to struggle because they foul harder after beating his man with ease again?? You're too focused on kobe's struggles against greater teams that you couldn't see with MJ thanks to competition difference. How would MJ have done in those situations like 08 celtics? Since you know what kobe would've done. Those Western Conference playoffs runs don't tell you anything?

Ummm yes. The 93 Knicks have a historically good defense. They had solid defensive guards in Starks, Blackman, Rivers, Derek Harper, all of whom can't contain Kobe individually but would utilise handchecking and try to force him towards the interior. You bring up Kobe's injuries yet there were occasions where he had great efficiency numbers in the western playoffs but not in the finals that same year. How convenient. Furthermore if these injuries impacted him in the 00s then they're sure as hell going to impact him going against a team like the Knicks. The 80's Pistons weren't more physical than the 04 team? You're kidding right?

As for your 'how would MJ fare against the 2008 Celtics', Wade had the ability to knife into the defense in a way that Kobe couldn't which is why Wade typically performed better against that team as well as the Pistons. The team that Kobe shot 38% against in 2004? Yeah, Wade was carving up the same squad in 05 and 06. MJ, like Wade, was a better slasher than Kobe and would have needed less reliance on hitting tough outside jumpers in response to the defense.

[LAL]

Ummm yes. The 93 Knicks have a historically good defense. They had solid defensive guards in Starks, Blackman, Rivers, Derek Harper, all of whom can't contain Kobe individually but would utilise handchecking and try to force him towards the interior. You bring up Kobe's injuries yet there were occasions where he had great efficiency numbers in the western playoffs but not in the finals that same year. How convenient. Furthermore if these injuries impacted him in the 00s then they're sure as hell going to impact him going against a team like the Knicks. The 80's Pistons weren't more physical than the 04 team? You're kidding right?

As for your 'how would MJ fare against the 2008 Celtics', Wade had the ability to knife into the defense in a way that Kobe couldn't which is why Wade typically performed better against that team as well as the Pistons. The team that Kobe shot 38% against in 2004? Yeah, Wade was carving up the same squad in 05 and 06. MJ, like Wade, was a better slasher than Kobe and would have needed less reliance on hitting tough outside jumpers in response to the defense.

You're saying kobe would've struggled against a 93 NYK teams and i say no. You're trying to compare that to kobe's 04, 08 finals to MJ vs 80s pistons or 93 Knicks and your reason is simply because MJ was better, i say no, because on the other hand, MJ didn't have to play the individualy better defenders and the elimination of 3 second rule and going up against zone defenses like Kobe had to, daily.. Could've saved a lot of energy troughout the reg season, going up against smaller defenders 1 on 1 on an island, imagine that. Derek Harper wasn't even on that 93 team btw. Wade didn't meet boston in 08 did he? Kobe beat them in 10, Wade had better numbers sure, but still, kobe lost to them in 08, then waited for them in the 09 finals and beat them in 10 with 8 fingers.. 04 pistons aren't the 05 or 06 pistons teams.. Not trying to downplay wade because they were still good, just not 04 good. I do hate arguing about hypothetical situations, that's why i just leave MJ at the 1 spot without thinking too much about his competition and rules around that time compared to kobe's.

[Phoenix]

You're saying kobe would've struggled against a 93 NYK teams and i say no. You're trying to compare that to kobe's 04, 08 finals to MJ vs 80s pistons or 93 Knicks and your reason is simply because MJ was better, i say no, because on the other hand, MJ didn't have to play the individualy better defenders and the elimination of 3 second rule and going up against zone defenses like Kobe had to, daily.. Could've saved a lot of energy troughout the reg season, going up against smaller defenders 1 on 1 on an island, imagine that. Derek Harper wasn't even on that 93 team btw. Wade didn't meet boston in 08 did he? Kobe beat them in 10, Wade had better numbers sure, but still, kobe lost to them in 08, then waited for them in the 09 finals and beat them in 10.. 04 pistons aren't the 05 or 06 pistons teams.. Not trying to downplay wade because they were still good, just not 04 good. I do hate arguing about hypothetical situations, that's why i just leave MJ at the 1 spot without thinking too much about his competition and rules around that time compared to kobe's. I don't like hypothetical arguments anyway.

And I say yes re: the 92 and 93 Knicks. So to that end, I've argued that point as much as I feel the need to. I can go about 3-4 posts nowadays arguing 'what player A does in player B's place' before I start drifting off when neither side is giving an inch and too entrenched in whatever position they're dedicated to upholding.

As for Detroit in 04 and 05, very little difference between the two teams and any minutia details is balanced out by Wade being in his 2nd season compared to Kobe being in his 8th. Wade as the younger, less experienced player shouldn't be playing better than Kobe against the Pistons in this case. Wade was also better against the Celtics in 2010 than Kobe was, considerably better, so there's no 'well this version of this team was better in this year' excuse like you're doing with the 04 and 05 Pistons.

[LAL]

And I say yes re: the 92 and 93 Knicks. So to that end, I've argued that point as much as I feel the need to. I can go about 3-4 posts nowadays arguing 'what player A does in player B's place' before I start drifting off when neither side is giving an inch and too entrenched in whatever position they're dedicated to upholding.

As for Detroit in 04 and 05, very little difference between the two teams and any minutia details is balanced out by Wade being in his 2nd season compared to Kobe being in his 8th. Wade as the younger, less experienced player shouldn't be playing better than Kobe against the Pistons in this case.
Nah 93 knicks weren't even better than some western conference teams kobe raped. I don't see MJ slashing like a young wade either in his first three peat years. Would've gone for contested shots too since 08 celtics and 04 pistons were clogging the paint too and you couldn't just backdown your smaller defender on an island to shoot a comfortable fadeway every trip down because those modern perimeter weren't as easy to shoot over. I don't know.


Wade was also better against the Celtics in 2010 than Kobe was, considerably better so there's no 'well this version of this team was better in this year' excuse like you're doing with the 04 and 05 Pistons.
Kobe was playing with 8 fingers and a bad knee after crushing the WC playoffs again, how much better were Wade's numbers if you count out kobe's game 7? I know, just asking.


This is you btw

I had a feeling you was going to refer to Kobe beating the Spurs without Shaq, something he did once( 2008) and that wasn't the best version of that teamSounds like me talking about Wade.

[Phoenix]

This is you btw
Sounds like me talking about Wade.

False equivalence. The 04 and 05 Pistons weren't different enough to reference that Wade played better against an inferior version of the team. It was pretty much the same team. Nobody looks at the 2008 Spurs as being as good as the mid 2000s squads when Duncan was in his absolute peak. It's ultimate irrelevant to nitpick over shit like that because the overall point is that I see no situation where Kobe and Grant Hill win 6 titles in the 00's like Tpols said. Some of these 'this team will win 5, 6, 7 titles' are said like rings are handed out like free candy. Winning a single championship takes a lot of circumstances beyond someone being generally good enough to win one. Hence why hypotheticals are ultimately redundant and boring discussions once you start circling the drain with them, which is pretty much what we're doing. On that point we agree.

The rest of your comments about the Knicks and Kobe, or finding any angle you can to excuse why injuries affected him in some series but not others in the same playoff year, don't care really and barely skimmed through it. That conversation devolved mostly to 'nah I don't agree' and repeating the same basic talking points. You can carry on with that on your own.

[LAL]

False equivalence. The 04 and 05 Pistons weren't different enough to reference that Wade played better against an inferior version of the team. It was pretty much the same team. Nobody looks at the 2008 Spurs as being as good as the mid 2000s squads when Duncan was in his absolute peak. It's ultimate irrelevant to nitpick over shit like that because the overall point is that I see no situation where Kobe and Grant Hill win 6 titles in the 00's like Tpols said. Some of these 'this team will win 5, 6, 7 titles' are said like rings are handed out like free candy. Winning a single championship takes a lot of circumstances beyond someone being generally good enough to win one. Hence why hypotheticals are ultimately redundant and boring discussions once you start circling the drain with them, which is pretty much what we're doing. On that point we agree.
Nah 08 Spurs were the defending champs.


The rest of your comments about the Knicks and Kobe, or finding any angle you can to excuse why injuries affected him in some series but not others in the same playoff year, don't care really and barely skimmed through it. That conversation devolved mostly to 'nah I don't agree' and repeating the same basic talking points. You can carry on with that on your own.
Only excuses for his title WINNING series, i'm using that excuse when comparing numbers with a younger, fresher superstar at the time. Doesn't matter, all that slashing was probably the reason for his rather quick decline.

[Axe]

🍿🍿🍿

[Phoenix]

Nah 08 Spurs were the defending champs.




Which has nothing to do with whether they were as good as they were 3-4 years before that.

[LAL]

Which has nothing to do with whether they were as good as they were 3-4 years before that.

They were busy getting raped by Frobe too then :cheers:

[Phoenix]

They were busy getting raped by Frobe too then :cheers:

Yeah. And Shaq played no part in that. Oh wait....

[LAL]

Yeah. And Shaq played no part in that. Oh wait....

Got raped with or without Shaq.

Kobe & Shaq duo was legendary, that's a different discussion, but yeah not many teams three peated in the history of the game, did what they were supposed to do.

[Axe]

The kobe & shaq duo couldn't even get near the finals until phil came over to the team in 1999 and led them to their first 3-peat.

[LAL]

The kobe & shaq duo couldn't even get near the finals until phil came over to the team in 1999 and led them to their first 3-peat.

You can also say that kobe entering his prime and second season as a starter becoming a great 2 way player was important too?

[Axe]

You can also say that kobe entering his prime and second season as a starter becoming a great 2 way player was important too?
Idk. Is it the '98-99 season you're talking about?

[SATAN]

The kobe & shaq duo couldn't even get near the finals until phil came over to the team in 1999 and led them to their first 3-peat.

This seems all too familiar

[LAL]

Idk. Is it the '98-99 season you're talking about?

98-99 was his first year as a starter, in a lockout season (50 games) as a small forward. Next year was their first title.

[Phoenix]

Got raped with or without Shaq.



3 of the 4 Laker wins over the Spurs had Shaq in the lineup. Also got raped by Duncan in 03 who didn't have a 2nd all-star on his team and Admiral on his way out.

[LAL]

This seems all too familiar

Your boi wouldn't have lasted a month in a triangle offense. Phil would've been fired before he could sit down.

[LAL]

3 of the 4 Laker wins over the Spurs had Shaq in the lineup. Also got raped by Duncan in 03 who didn't have a 2nd all-star on his team and Admiral on his way out.

Getting a little desperate now. Relax i was just starting to like you.

[Phoenix]

Getting a little desperate now. Relax i was just starting to like you.

Nah. And I'm not posting for your affection.

[Axe]

98-99 was his first year as a starter, in a lockout season (50 games) as a small forward. Next year was their first title.
Probably, but keep in mind that he did not start in the first 15 games of the season due to wrist injury.

[LAL]

Nah. And I'm not posting for your affection.

:oldlol:

[Phoenix]

:oldlol:

:pimp:

[LAL]

Probably, but keep in mind that he did not start in the first 15 games of the season due to wrist injury.

Yes, but he was pretty good after that.

[Axe]

Yes, but he was pretty good after that.
And then there's their feud.

[LAL]

And then there's their feud.

Shaq's still feuding with active players and his co workers to this day.

[Axe]

Shaq's still feuding with active players and his co workers to this day.
Talk about being an alpha male lmao

[LAL]

Talk about being an alpha male lmao

Mostly sensitive. Oh well. They made history together.

[Axe]

Mostly sensitive. Oh well. They made history together.
Both were immature in their own ways back then.