If you think about it, are rings the only argument Jordan has over LeBron?

[Mamba4Life]

And if so, why isn’t Russell considered better than Jordan? :confusedshrug:

[jstern]

No. Without singling out Lebron, Jordan is just on a different level mentally than anybody else. The only player I think comes close is Larry Bird. Jordan is like a true life legend, character wise.

The way I imagine is like this. Imagine a narrator reading from the history books, the Jordan story is filled with non stop iconic moments of always coming through. From the countless stories of people talking shit to Jordan and without fail Jordan going into that next level and destroying them, to one of the most incredible moments in sports history, the flu game. From the media saying that he didn't have it anymore when he was with the Wizards, and then Jordan scoring 51 points the next game, and I think 45 the following game as an old player, to him hitting 6 3-pointers in the first half of an NBA Finals game because they were saying that Clyde was the better 3 point shooter. The Jordan story from start to finish reads like a legend. Just constantly overcoming, taking over. And that's not by luck, coincidence, that's simply from his unique character that only a true GOAT would have.

On the other hand, Lebron. From phantom elbows, losing to Dwight Howard and the Orlando Magics despite having the team with the best record in the league with 66 wins. The historically weak East. And the biggest one of all, 2011. How would his career sound with the narrator reading from the history books? It's just not going to be filled with these non stops legendary moments. There might be some, but it's mostly filled with so much shit.

"And then the mighty Lebron threw up a 3-pointer, he missed the shot, but destiny will not be denied. Luckily for the GOAT, Tim Duncan was on the bench, Chris Bosch got the rebound, was able to pass it to Ray Allen who hit one of the clutches 3 point shots that had ever been taken. Saving his legacy." Or, the mighty Lebron faced the mighty Golden State Warriors, who set out to break the Bulls 72-10 record, in a league with a new culture of load management. Things looked desperate for Lebron, but again he would not be denied. With the help of suspensions, and injuries to the Golden State Warriors, Lebron was able to come back, sealing the game with a dagger 3 by Kyrie Irving.

That being my favorite Finals of all time. So I'm not a Lebron hater.

[FultzNationRISE]

Yes, and if we're being honest, it's a flawed argument at that.

Rings from the 90s simply do not carry the cache of rings from the modern, competitive era. When you additionally take into account the fact that MJ ducked the only other Top 15 player from his era, Hakeem, it really undermines the whole "six rangs" position.

It's not a knock on MJ, mind you. So what, he isn't as great as Lebron, big deal. He's still a top 15 player. Out of thousands of players to have played in the league, all of whom themselves comprise the top .5% of basketball players on the planet.

MJ is literally among the best .001% of basketball players to have lived on planet Earth. He's just not the very best one.

Lebron is.

[jstern]

Yes, and if we're being honest, it's a flawed argument at that.

Rings from the 90s simply do not carry the cache of rings from the modern, competitive era. When you additionally take into account the fact that MJ ducked the only other Top 15 player from his era, Hakeem, it really undermines the whole "six rangs" position.

It's not a knock on MJ, mind you. So what, he isn't as great as Lebron, big deal. He's still a top 15 player. Out of thousands of players to have played in the league, all of whom themselves comprise the top .5% of basketball players on the planet.

MJ is literally among the best .001% of basketball players to have lived on planet Earth. He's just not the very best one.

Lebron is.

You know, WoW, I've never heard this narrative that Jordan didn't face real competition until these current desperate times caused by the Last Dance documentary. And by people who were not even alive back then. Back in the 90s I never heard that. If the teams were weak, then that would had been an argument in the media back then. One can easily go back and get a sense of the time, and nobody was calling these 60+ win teams weak. Meanwhile, if we do the same thing for the Lebron era, going back to the early 2000s, we can easily get a sense of how weak the East has been for 20 years now. It's not a secret, and the proof is there by going back to the documented times.

And going back to my earlier point, about the narrator reading the story about the GOAT Lebron. "The mighty Lebron, teamed up with Dwayne Wade, and Chris Bosch, and then Kyrie Irving and Kevin love, destroying one of the weakest conference in sports history, going to 8 straight Finals in a row. Nobody could compete with the GOAT, and then he went to the West. He was in danger of missing the playoffs for the first time in over a decade, but the mighty Lebron went into playoff mode, and proceeded to lose the next 14 out of 15 games that the Lakers played." (I don't know the exact record, but you get the point. And this is your GOAT?) While the best player in the West went East and won the chip.

[Mr Feeny]

Yes, and if we're being honest, it's a flawed argument at that.

Rings from the 90s simply do not carry the cache of rings from the modern, competitive era. When you additionally take into account the fact that MJ ducked the only other Top 15 player from his era, Hakeem, it really undermines the whole "six rangs" position.

It's not a knock on MJ, mind you. So what, he isn't as great as Lebron, big deal. He's still a top 15 player. Out of thousands of players to have played in the league, all of whom themselves comprise the top .5% of basketball players on the planet.

MJ is literally among the best .001% of basketball players to have lived on planet Earth. He's just not the very best one.

Lebron is.

MJ faced 12 teams in the conference and NBA finals in his 6 title runs, each of whom is better than the 2011 Dallas Mavericks.

I dont think you have thought this out.

[Overdrive]

No, after a certain amount of rings they're futile as an argument. It doesn't really matter if you have 6, 3, 8 or anything else if you showed you can win and be the main responsible player for it. A lot of winning is circumstancial. Some players face better or worse circumstances. The GOAT debate usually circles around rings, accolades and stats. Skills are often overlooked. The only thing Lebron has on Jordan are cumulative stats and some arbitrary bullshit like this:



Rings from the 90s simply do not carry the cache of rings from the modern, competitive era. When you additionally take into account the fact that MJ ducked the only other Top 15 player from his era, Hakeem, it really undermines the whole "six rangs" position.

When did the modern competitive era start? 2011? 2015? 2016? Can't be before, because guys who were stars in the 90s still played then and some won. So if it was 2011, how come guys from before that still won in '11 and '14(actually another guy playing in the 90s and succumbing to Jordan's comp). So the start of the modern competive era is 2015, when the pace and space no defense 3 pt spamming started and that doesn't really help Lebron, because he only won once there.
Which leads me to another point. It's mostly Lebron stans that argue about rings. The greatness of rings, weak era etc. They need to make it about rings, because if you take make it an even playing field, no rings, no MVPs, no FMVPs and other awards there's only one thing left. How good are you as a basketball player? How good is Lebron compared to Jordan, Bird, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, Wilt, etc. Who would you pick as your teammate to lead you to a win in a basketball game. etc. Lebron stans use the rings to seperate their guy from Bird et al, because before Lebron got his 2nd there wasn't even a debate about it.

Hakeem the only top 15 player?

Lebron only won against 1 top 10 player - when he was 37 years old - and in this case it isn't even a lie. It was also before the modern, competitive era.

[Roundball_Rock]

Well, it certainly is the only argument we hear for MJ over anyone. We had a 23 page thread on KJ and MJ. The entire "case" for MJ was team success with amusingly rigged parameters (we have to count the part of KAJ's careers where his teams were the worst but for MJ we have to look at the part of his career where his teams were the best).

To me MJ>LeBron because MJ was more dominant, had no weakness in his game (his one weakness was that he needed to be taught to play team ball over many years, while most legends understand that from day 1), MJ was the better two-way player, and MJ was a better bet to win rings because of his ability to raise an already good's teams ceiling to that of being an all-time great team.

LeBron is the better all-around offensive player, has more longevity, and shows a much better ability to raise his teams' floors if they are bad or average but he can't get to a high ceiling relative to his rosters' talent and what comparable legends did. LeBron was with Wade/Bosh or Irving/Love from 2011-2017 and the team won 60+ only once. They were below 55 wins in 14', 15', 17'. It is notable LeBron has never played on what would be considered an all-time great team and some of that has to do with him and his issues integrating with other stars, not just bad luck.


Lebron only won against 1 top 10 player

So did Jordan, with the other guy's team suffering key injuries.

[StrongLurk]

MJ actually has better counting and advanced stats in their primes...

[LeCroix]

Playoffs are owned by lebron and bill tussell the russell

And QUIT saying 'longevity' when LeBrom and Michael are.compared on equal playoff showings at 13 each

Leborn collects first rank honors for a list of playoff stats

•game winner shots
•most steals ever (anchor) untouchable
•by far highest vorp, win shares, pts scored
•highest PER for season thru Finals (2018 32.2)
•he just has them all and its not close
•goat ring

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ actually has better counting and advanced stats in their primes...

True but if it is about stats Wilt has the best prime stats and I would argue KAJ going 30/16/5 is better than MJ going 33/7/6 (not exact figures but approximate to what they did) in their primes. Yet we hear MJ>the primes of players who had better stats than he did or even won more MVP's than he did prime versus prime.

[ELITEpower23]

Jordan did face inferior opponents in the Finals compared to LeBron, but he never lost either. He never let a 2011 scenario take place. MJ could be 5 for 6 if he had a 2011 blunder but he didn't. He got the job done when he made the Finals. Each and every time-point blank. It's just how he rolls. His competitive nature allowed him to catapult mediocre players into perennial all stars.

[ELITEpower23]

Stats for playoff players go like this:

Lebron, MJ, KAJ. (Wilt is off the list for his many failed outings in the Finals and choke jobs). Those three probably have 90% of the playoff records over the last 50 years, from 1970 to 2020.

[Overdrive]

Well, it certainly is the only argument we hear for MJ over anyone. We had a 23 page thread on KJ and MJ. The entire "case" for MJ was team success with amusingly rigged parameters (we have to count the part of KAJ's careers where his teams were the worst but for MJ we have to look at the part of his career where his teams were the best).

No not by anyone. By some, most argue that he's just more skilled, as athletic and more impactful than Lebron. No matter the rings.


To me MJ>LeBron because MJ was more dominant, had no weakness in his game (his one weakness was that he needed to be taught to play team ball over many years, while most legends understand that from day 1), MJ was the better two-way player, and MJ was a better bet to win rings because of his ability to raise an already good's teams ceiling to that of being an all-time great team.

I also think he's just the best player that existed so far. Of course he needed a good team to win just like any great, but I think his skillset is the best possible for any team to integrate.


LeBron is the better all-around offensive player, has more longevity, and shows a much better ability to raise his teams' floors if they are bad or average but he can't get to a high ceiling relative to his rosters' talent and what comparable legends did. LeBron was with Wade/Bosh or Irving/Love from 2011-2017 and the team won 60+ only once. They were below 55 wins in 14', 15', 17'. It is notable LeBron has never played on what would be considered an all-time great team and some of that has to do with him and his issues integrating with other stars, not just bad luck.

Very rarely this gets brought up. It's always his teammates fault, but he played with very good casts.
Also Lebron's allroundness gets overstated compared to Jordan. He gets more rebounds and assists but just by 1 each I think. Same blocks, less steals.


So did Jordan, with the other guy's team suffering key injuries.

Shaq exists.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Lebron just doesn't have the GOAT level of dominance from a team perspective that compares to Jordan.

- Lebron has never led a team in regular season to the #1 offense ranked via basketball reference
- Lebron has never had a playoff run without either being eliminated or taken to 7 games

Lebron has had plenty of talent to work with, so there's just no excuse for not dominating his league more than he should have.

However, Lebron has never played with a player as good as Pippen with the exception of 2011 and he has never played with a goat level coach like Phil Jackson. So it really depends on your perspective I guess. I would rather have Jordan on my team because his game fits in a team style of game more, while Lebron is usually playing 'lebronball'

[red1]

lebron still needs to win one more ring to close the gap.



if he does he is the GOAT :)

[LostCause]

No

Jordan and LeBron are totally different players but are also about on the same level. LeBrons big argument over MJ is his longevity, which even today he doesn't seem to be slowing down significantly. That may be due to a mix of technology, the way the game is played (ie, more emphasis on resting stars and more lax defensive rules) or whatever but it doesn't really take away from what he's doing. I don't see him really "falling off" for another 2-3 years at least, which will be huge to enhance his legacy even further

[3ball]

And if so, why isn’t Russell considered better than Jordan? :confusedshrug:

Better stats (BPM, PER, WS/48, VORP, PPG)

Better winning

Better accolades

Better clutch stats

Better skills (off-ball, jumpshooting)


And Russell doesn't qualify because good team offense didn't occur before the 3-point line, which allowed a 1-way defender like Russell to win the most.. but once the 3-point line was instituted, all 40 league MVP's have been dominant offensive players - so we know Russell isn't MVP-caliber in modern NBA basketball (3-pointer basketball), which means Jordan's 6 rings as the best player is the goat accomplishment

[Mamba4Life]

Better stats (BPM, PER, WS/48, VORP, PPG)

Better winning

Better accolades

Better clutch stats

Better skills (off-ball, jumpshooting)


And Russell doesn't qualify because good team offense didn't occur before the 3-point line, which allowed a 1-way defender like Russell to win the most.. but once the 3-point line was instituted, all 40 league MVP's have been dominant offensive players - so we know Russell isn't MVP-caliber in modern NBA basketball (3-pointer basketball), which means Jordan's 6 rings as the best player is the goat accomplishment


4 and 2 vs 12 and 10

[3ball]

4 and 2 vs 12 and 10

29 vs 15 (2nd option ppg)

[86Celtics]

Better stats (BPM, PER, WS/48, VORP, PPG)

Better winning

Better accolades

Better clutch stats

Better skills (off-ball, jumpshooting)


And Russell doesn't qualify because good team offense didn't occur before the 3-point line, which allowed a 1-way defender like Russell to win the most.. but once the 3-point line was instituted, all 40 league MVP's have been dominant offensive players - so we know Russell isn't MVP-caliber in modern NBA basketball (3-pointer basketball), which means Jordan's 6 rings as the best player is the goat accomplishment

You can't transplant a player from the 60s into the modern league and assume that he'd be the same. Bill Russell would be elite in any era.

[LeCroix]

lebron still needs to win one more ring to close the gap.



if he does he is the GOAT :)

agree to agree

1 is michael but a close second is

2 leborn

this could get mj fan supports sweating buckets if the season resumes :lol

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You can't transplant a player from the 60s into the modern league and assume that he'd be the same. Bill Russell would be elite in any era.

Russell wouldn't be a #1 scoring option on a title team, so his goat argument fails. Its the same reason why Scottie Pippen is ranked top 20-30 and not top 10. For Russell, he's top 10 but not goat level due to his scoring deficiencies.

[LeCroix]

Better stats (BPM, PER, WS/48, VORP, PPG)

Better winning

Better accolades

Better clutch stats

Better skills (off-ball, jumpshooting)


And Russell doesn't qualify because good team offense didn't occur before the 3-point line, which allowed a 1-way defender like Russell to win the most.. but once the 3-point line was instituted, all 40 league MVP's have been dominant offensive players - so we know Russell isn't MVP-caliber in modern NBA basketball (3-pointer basketball), which means Jordan's 6 rings as the best player is the goat accomplishment

whoa

leborn has records to pass up mj in all these categories. stick to rings not stats my brethren :lol MJ is goat for the best combo of stats + rings but leborn has stats

leborn has #1 ranked winshares, vorp, points, stls, game winners, triple doubles in finals, 30 pt playoff games, conference wins, and then

double the assists of michael, almost double the rebounds and blocks. its not close for you. stick to rings

[LeCroix]

No

Jordan and LeBron are totally different players but are also about on the same level. LeBrons big argument over MJ is his longevity, which even today he doesn't seem to be slowing down significantly. That may be due to a mix of technology, the way the game is played (ie, more emphasis on resting stars and more lax defensive rules) or whatever but it doesn't really take away from what he's doing. I don't see him really "falling off" for another 2-3 years at least, which will be huge to enhance his legacy even further

i thought they both made 13 playoffs or am i wrong.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

whoa

leborn has records to pass up mj in all these categories. stick to rings not stats my brethren :lol MJ is goat for the best combo of stats + rings but leborn has stats

leborn has #1 ranked winshares, vorp, points, stls, game winners, triple doubles in finals, 30 pt playoff games, conference wins, and then

double the assists of michael, almost double the rebounds and blocks. its not close for you. stick to rings

Jordan beats Lebron in the main advanced stats for playoffs on basketball reference

career playoffs BPM, career playoffs Win Shares Per 48 Minutes, career playoff PER all goes to Jordan.

[LeCroix]

Jordan beats Lebron in the main advanced stats for playoffs on basketball reference

career playoffs BPM, career playoffs Win Shares Per 48 Minutes, career playoff PER all goes to Jordan.
Mike benefits on per game because he quit before he declined and made less finals = played less tougher match ups

Career vs career = 13 years to 13 years = totals
1 season = 1 year to 1 year = per game

Leborn wins them all as career player = totals

Even look it up leborn has over 6000 pts mike has less

[Overdrive]

Mike benefits on per game because he quit before he declined and made less finals = played less tougher match ups

Career vs career = 13 years to 13 years = totals
1 season = 1 year to 1 year = per game

Leborn wins them all as career player = totals

Even look it up leborn has over 6000 pts mike has less

Best of 5 vs best of 7.

[LostCause]

i thought they both made 13 playoffs or am i wrong.

Doesn't affect anything I said :confusedshrug:

[Cyrus334]

No of course not. One google search and you would have found out that Jordan has more accolades than Lebron and had a higher peak than Lebron.

[RRR3]

I really don’t get why LeBron stans on here act like he has better stats than Jordan.

[LostCause]

I really don’t get why LeBron stans on here act like he has better stats than Jordan.

Depends on the stats. In some areas he does (ie efficiency and basic stats like reb/asts, as well as career totals)

[KD7]

Jordan has nothing over LeBron outside of rings and PPG (due to being a ballhog)

[3ball]

whoa

leborn has records to pass up mj in all these categories. stick to rings not stats my brethren :lol MJ is goat for the best combo of stats + rings but leborn has stats

leborn has #1 ranked winshares, vorp, points, stls, game winners, triple doubles in finals, 30 pt playoff games, conference wins, and then

double the assists of michael, almost double the rebounds and blocks. its not close for you. stick to rings

Per game stats and rate of production stats > longevity stats

So MJ has the better stats

[Roundball_Rock]

No not by anyone. By some, most argue that he's just more skilled, as athletic and more impactful than Lebron.

Go to social media and do a search for "6-0" and "3-6" and you will see what I mean. ISH is not reflective of the general basketball fan base. We all took the extra step of going to a site like this and then another step to sign up to chat here. What you see on Facebook, Twitter, etc. is more reflective of most fans.


Very rarely this gets brought up. It's always his teammates fault, but he played with very good casts.

It isn't easy to nail down because LeBron did more with less than anyone but there is a ceiling issue with him that his peer do not have.


Shaq exists.

I assumed they meant in the finals but yeah if playoffs obviously Shaq--but the same caveat applies there. Horace Grant played half a game and then Nick Anderson gets hurt and missed Game 4. The Bulls likely would have won either series anyway but whatever chance the underdog had was sniffed out by bad luck.


Lebron has never led a team in regular season to the #1 offense ranked via basketball reference

Are you sure about that? If he hasn't I am sure he has gotten very close. The issue with his teams is inconsistent defense but they always have elite offenses.


Russell wouldn't be a #1 scoring option on a title team, so his goat argument fails

How often was Magic Johnson his team's leading scorer? 87' and maybe one other year? Yet he isn't penalized for that like Russell is.


Mike benefits on per game because he quit before he declined and made less finals = played less tougher match ups

Agreed. MJ was better but his stats are misleading because he skipped out on declining seasons by retiring (or missing the playoffs twice in DC) and because he played in a weak era for his position (in contrast, the next era had Kobe, Wade, Iverson, Carter, and T Mac). LeBron as a comparison faced Carmelo, George, Pierce, Durant--all in one playoff run.

[Bronbron23]

And if so, why isn’t Russell considered better than Jordan? :confusedshrug:

No he has more scoring titles, fmvps, dpoys and defensive teams. Off the court hes a more successful buisness man, makes more money has a hotter wife. Its really not a fair comparison tbh.

[Mamba4Life]

No he has more scoring titles, fmvps, dpoys and defensive teams. Off the court hes a more successful buisness man, makes more money has a hotter wife. Its really not a fair comparison tbh.

Is he also a better son to his father?

[Bronbron23]

Is he also a better son to his father?

Not sure what u mean. Im pretty sure lebron dosnt even have a father and mj potentially got his killed so both have daddy issues im sure. Lebron not having a dad actually explains alot. Hes the most insecure alpha ive ever seen.

[Axe]

Is he also a better son to his father?
Logical statement gets a stupid question.

[knicksman]

Nah, hes the better scorer. And alpha dogs aim to be the best scorer. You only settle for less aka the best all around when you cant be the best scorer. So if youre the best scorer you automatically become the best player. Thats why players have kobe over lebron. Thats why kawhi made it look so easy while lebron is struggling despite the superteams.

[Axe]

Bran has never led any teams to three-straight 60 win seasons (wouldn't count 2011-12 since it was shortened due to the lockout), especially with the heat and the triumvirate.

[3ball]

NBA.com... 94% of Lebron's shots outside of 10 feet are either "open" (4-6 feet from closest defender) or "wide open" (6+ feet), compared to 77.1% (https://stats.nba.com/player/201935/shots-dash/) for Harden, 82.0% (https://stats.nba.com/player/203078/shots-dash/) for Bradley Beal, 77.8% (https://stats.nba.com/player/202695/shots-dash/) for Kawhi, and 66.6% (https://stats.nba.com/player/201142/shots-dash/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) for KDGoat (in 2019).


Lebron doesn't take contested jumpers

[3ball]

.


Nah, hes the better scorer. And alpha dogs aim to be the best scorer. You only settle for less aka the best all around when you cant be the best scorer. So if youre the best scorer you automatically become the best player. Thats why players have kobe over lebron. Thats why kawhi made it look so easy while lebron is struggling despite the superteams.




So true

And the stats show lebron doesn't take contested jumpshots (previous post), and therefore needs a sidekick that can, aka Wade and Goatrie... Otoh, guys like KD/Kawhi/Kobe, etc - they're already like kyrie and Wade as contested shot-makers/closers, and therefore superior to lebron (who avoids contested jumpers, aka clutch-time shots)

[3ball]

.

NBA.com... 94% of Lebron's shots outside of 10 feet are either "open" (4-6 feet from closest defender) or "wide open" (6+ feet), compared to 77.1% (https://stats.nba.com/player/201935/shots-dash/) for Harden, 82.0% (https://stats.nba.com/player/203078/shots-dash/) for Bradley Beal, 77.8% (https://stats.nba.com/player/202695/shots-dash/) for Kawhi, and 66.6% (https://stats.nba.com/player/201142/shots-dash/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) for KDGoat (in 2019).


^^^ the stats show lebron doesn't take contested jumpers/close and therefore needs a sidekick that can, aka Wade and Kyrie... Otoh, guys like KD/Kawhi/Kobe are already like kyrie and Wade as contested shot-makers/closers, and therefore superior to lebron (who avoids contested jumpers, aka clutch-time shots)

[red1]

bron's achievements are aging like a fine scotch meanwhile mj's legacy is taking a hit with every scottie achievement we unearth.



at this point mj is clinging to his 1.b spot the way mufasa clinged to the ledge before he got thrown off by leScar

[Da_Realist]

No. Having more stats doesn't mean better at basketball. That's a shallow understanding. Despite the stats, LeBron could be rendered (relatively) ineffective on the court. Meaning, he may get his stats but he's not affecting the game that much. It was much much harder to render MJ ineffective. He may have had bad shooting nights or made some bad decisions here and there but it never seemed like the game overwhelmed him. He was always the focal point. He seemed to always be in control. He knew how to pace himself, knew how to change the momentum of the game, knew how to slow the momentum of the other team and knew when to strike. Sometimes the most crucial points are the ones that stop the momentum of the other team. MJ was great at keeping the deficit within reach to keep his team in the game. He'd hit a shot and earn a couple trips to the free throw line that would stop a 10 point deficit from ballooning to 20. I've seen LeBron fall victim to this way more often. Largely, MJ's effect on the game was timely while LBJ is more cumulative.

Many times you'd forget LeBron was out there and then you'd see he pocketed 28, 7 and 7. MJ always had control of the game and was never just out there even on bad shooting nights. He was always a threat to break out of a slump. He was always a threat to hit a crucial shot even after struggling all night. The other team felt his presence, his leadership and his competitive drive. Even on nights he lost, you knew he was out there. His team was always prepared and always ready.

I've seen LeBron switch off tough assignments (famously KD in the waning seconds of a crucial Finals game), I've seen LeBron standing around midcourt when his team needed someone to step up and stop the bleeding, I've seen LeBron playing at the same pace during critical minutes as he does during the first quarter. LeBron has stepped up many times but there are also times the oppostion can make him uncomfortable enough to overcome his team.

There was no gameplan for MJ. There was no area he wasn't comfortable. He'd kill you if you forced him to drive, shoot or post up. He'd kill you if you defended him with lanky shooting guards, muscular power forwards or quick point guards. The opposing team made a gameplan and basically hoped he'd miss enough to give them a chance. And even then, they needed to contend with that Bulls defense. Making MJ work for points was more effective later in his career but teams like the 96 Sonics and 98 Pacers still couldn't get over the hump because the Bulls shut them down too (and MJ was a large part of that).

Bottom line, MJ was going to make an impact on the court. He was going to be THE focal point of the opposing team, whether it was an off night or not. His team was going to be prepared. His team was going to be competitive. His team was going to play world class defense. Every night. Can't say that about LeBron. There are times a team can make LeBron slouch his shoulders and give in a little bit.

[DoctorP]

And if so, why isn’t Russell considered better than Jordan? :confusedshrug:

russell was considered goat b4 Jordan so its always arguable


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Exbsw5ssn4I

[Indian guy]

LeBron doesn't really have better stats than MJ though. PER sums up per-minute boxscore production fairly well and MJ's slightly ahead there in both regular season and playoffs. If it's a matter of individual accolades, then MJ's ahead there too. More regular season MVPs, more Finals MVPs and more All Defensive Team selections. LeBron's edge is mainly longevity/career totals. Of course, he dominates modern impact stats (+/-, on/off), but we don't have that from MJ's era, so....oh well.

So no, rings are not MJ's only argument. That's usually the lazy argument of the ignorant fan who mostly gets his knowledge from ESPN/First Take. I do believe rings ARE the byproduct of MJ being the superior player, but you'd have to watch/study both players' careers' to understand why MJ was winning more. And no, it has absolutely nothing to do with Pippen. LeBron played with some loaded squads of his own for a 7-year stretch of his career (11-17) and he simply wasn't winning like MJ was.

MJ was simply the better player. He had LeBron's godly physical abilities, but was notably more diverse/skilled at the game's most important attribute (volume scoring). Because of that, he had 2 significant advantages over LeBron - 1) he was tougher to guard and it shows in their respective careers' dud games/series. MJ simply had less of those 2) MJ could blend his game better with other talented players and make a system thrive. Which is why his teams were consistently at the top of the league in ORTG and could win games even when he was off or not dominating the ball.

Then there are intangibles like competitiveness, handling adversity, leadership and so on. Obviously, no objective way to measure this, but when you watch somebody, you get a pretty good reading on how they deal with different game situations. Ideally, what you are looking for here is someone who always plays hard and someone whose confidence never falters irregardless of game situation. While LeBron certainly plays very hard, you can't say his confidence is always 100%. He's prone to human failings on occasion like self-doubt/fear of failure, which can lead to him being passive in situations that are detrimental to his team. MJ had no such issues. He was a fearless competitor who didn't care if he missed 15 shots in a row. He was always on the attack/looking to make plays and even more so when stakes in a game/moment were at their highest. And that's a very notable edge to have over someone.

[Goldrush25]

It's only rings. You break down the statistics, Lebron's the better overall basketball player.

Lebron better player, Jordan better career.

[Roundball_Rock]

And no, it has absolutely nothing to do with Pippen

So what did Chicago do without him? They fell off (win pace wise) -12, -25, -11 the times he missed significant time. The MJ crowd overplays its hand.

Jordan and LeBron are close in advanced stats. Who has the edge depends on which stat. Generally MJ, though, but LeBron's numbers are going down as he ages versus retiring like MJ did. Still, MJ often has the higher peak stats but not always.

The statistical argument for LeBron is cumulative. There he will crush MJ when it is all done.

[3ball]

It's only rings. You break down the statistics, Lebron's the better overall basketball player.

Lebron better player, Jordan better career.

You're looking at career totals, but MJ did more per game (#1 all-time in PPG and efficiency rating) and had a higher rate of production (#1 all-time in PER, BPM, WS/48, and all the top VORP seasons)

So MJ wins stats easily, while also winning the accolades and rings categories

[Roundball_Rock]

You're looking at career totals, but MJ did more per game (#1 all-time in PPG and efficiency rating) and had a higher rate of production (#1 all-time in PER, BPM, WS/48, and all the top VORP seasons)

VORP:

Rank Player VORP Season

1. Michael Jordan* 12.47 1987-88
2. LeBron James 11.79 2008-09
3. Michael Jordan* 11.42 1988-89
4. David Robinson* 11.36 1993-94
5. Michael Jordan* 10.77 1990-91
6. Michael Jordan* 10.61 1989-90
7. Michael Jordan* 10.58 1986-87
8. LeBron James 10.34 2009-10
9. Michael Jordan* 10.24 1992-93
10. Kevin Garnett* 9.97 2003-04

LeBron has the 11th, 14th, and 18th best seasons too (MJ has the 13th best as well). Slight edge to MJ, though.

Career VORP:

Rank Player VORP

1. LeBron James 133.24
2. Michael Jordan* 116.08
3. John Stockton* 106.50
4. Karl Malone* 99.03
5. Kevin Garnett* 96.85
6. Tim Duncan* 91.12
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 85.72
8. Chris Paul 85.63
9. Dirk Nowitzki 84.82
10. David Robinson* 81.96

LeBron in a landslide.

Top BPM seasons:

1. LeBron James 13.24 2008-09
2. Michael Jordan* 12.96 1987-88
3. Michael Jordan* 12.01 1990-91
4. Stephen Curry 11.94 2015-16
5. Michael Jordan* 11.88 1988-89
6. David Robinson* 11.87 1993-94
7. LeBron James 11.81 2009-10
8. LeBron James 11.71 2012-13
9. Giannis Antetokounmpo 11.50 2019-20
10. Michael Jordan* 11.24 1992-93

MJ 11th, 17th, 19th as well. LeBron 15th, 16th.

Career it is close:

Rank Player BPM

1. Michael Jordan* 9.22
2. LeBron James 8.94
3. Chris Paul 7.59
4. Magic Johnson* 7.54
5. David Robinson* 7.48
6. Larry Bird* 6.89
7. James Harden 6.88
8. John Stockton* 6.83
9. Kawhi Leonard 6.81
10. Kevin Durant 6.74

Top PER seasons are close, with Wilt leading (despite getting 0s record for blocks and steals!):

Rank Player PER Season

1. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.82 1962-63
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.74 1961-62
3. Michael Jordan* 31.71 1987-88
4. LeBron James 31.67 2008-09
5. Michael Jordan* 31.63 1990-91
6. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.63 1963-64
7. Giannis Antetokounmpo 31.63 2019-20
8. LeBron James 31.59 2012-13
9. Stephen Curry 31.46 2015-16
10. Michael Jordan* 31.18 1989-90

0.04 is a negligible difference.

Career PER is close too:

Rank Player PER

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.52
3. Anthony Davis 27.50
4. Shaquille O'Neal* 26.43
5. David Robinson* 26.18
6. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
7. Bob Pettit* 25.34
8. Kevin Durant 25.20
9. Chris Paul 25.10
10. James Harden 24.75

This is with LeBron's PER declining since he didn't retire prematurely like MJ did, avoiding several decline seasons.

LeBron coming from high school cuts both ways. It boosts his cumlative stats but hurts his per game stats. His PER from 2006-2018 was 28.8 (MJ 29.4 from 87' to 98'). 89'-93' MJ: 30.3. 09'-13' LeBron: 30.4.

No matter how you parse it the two are bumper to bumper.

[Goldrush25]

You're looking at career totals, but MJ did more per game (#1 all-time in PPG and efficiency rating) and had a higher rate of production (#1 all-time in PER, BPM, WS/48, and all the top VORP seasons)

So MJ wins stats easily, while also winning the accolades and rings categories


Longevity is part of the argument. You can't just exclude it.

PER is a good attempt at a catch-all statistic, but we all know how flawed it is. Boban Marjonavic has a career PER of 26.1. That's HOF level play if we take it at face value.

You break down the stats, Lebron had a higher FG%, higher eFG%, higher tFG%, higher 3pt%, higher average rebounds, average blocks, and a slew of advanced statistics.

You line item all of the stats, and Lebron comes out ahead. PER in my opinion overweighs raw scoring, meaning that a inherently less efficient scorer that accumulates more points in fewer games will score a higher PER, which doesn't make sense.

I'll give you higher peak, but Lebron's peak was right there under MJ's, and as far as longevity goes Lebron has already won that argument and will crush MJ in the career numbers.

[Roundball_Rock]

Longevity is part of the argument. You can't just exclude it.

PER is a good attempt at a catch-all statistic, but we all know how flawed it is. Boban Marjonavic has a career PER of 26.1. That's HOF level play if we take it at face value.

I forgot to mention PER penalizes ballhandlers because of turnovers. PER says David Robinson is 5th all-time and Chris Paul, Harden are better than Kareem, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem.

Longevity is always a measure of greatness but when it comes to MJ it tends to get flipped on its head because MJ doesn't compare well to KAJ or LeBron (so the argument bizarrely becomes that their longevity is "unfair").

[LeCroix]

Longevity is part of the argument. You can't just exclude it.

PER is a good attempt at a catch-all statistic, but we all know how flawed it is. Boban Marjonavic has a career PER of 26.1. That's HOF level play if we take it at face value.

You break down the stats, Lebron had a higher FG%, higher eFG%, higher tFG%, higher 3pt%, higher average rebounds, average blocks, and a slew of advanced statistics.

You line item all of the stats, and Lebron comes out ahead. PER in my opinion overweighs raw scoring, meaning that a inherently less efficient scorer that accumulates more points in fewer games will score a higher PER, which doesn't make sense.

I'll give you higher peak, but Lebron's peak was right there under MJ's, and as far as longevity goes Lebron has already won that argument and will crush MJ in the career numbers.

exactly, if mj only gets his 'per game' stats then we get to take lebrons best 6 finals runs and exclude his 3 worst and i guarantee he murks mj in 'per game'

mj dont get a pass because he quit out 3 times and didnt make finals...

[3ball]

Longevity is part of the argument. You can't just exclude it.

PER is a good attempt at a catch-all statistic, but we all know how flawed it is. Boban Marjonavic has a career PER of 26.1. That's HOF level play if we take it at face value.

You break down the stats, Lebron had a higher FG%, higher eFG%, higher tFG%, higher 3pt%, higher average rebounds, average blocks, and a slew of advanced statistics.

You line item all of the stats, and Lebron comes out ahead. PER in my opinion overweighs raw scoring, meaning that a inherently less efficient scorer that accumulates more points in fewer games will score a higher PER, which doesn't make sense.

I'll give you higher peak, but Lebron's peak was right there under MJ's, and as far as longevity goes Lebron has already won that argument and will crush MJ in the career numbers.

It isn't just PER - it's PER, BPM, WS/48, and all the top VORP seasons - all of this together paints the picture

lebron had slightly better shooting efficiency but that falls under the umbrella of efficiency PER POSSESSION (ortg), where MJ's is higher (despite higher usage)

And Lebron's rebound advantage is compromised because MJ leads in offensive rebounds..

Ultimately, MJ's massive scoring edge and his edge in efficiency per possession, orebs, steals, FT %, less TO's, plus all the advanced stats (PER, BPM, WS/48) gives him the statistical edge... Lebron's advantages are weak and/or meaningless by comparison (i.e. defensive rebounds is like comparing MJ's rebounds to KJ's)

[LeCroix]

lebron had slightly better shooting efficiency but that falls under the umbrella of efficiency PER POSSESSION (ortg), where MJ's is higher (despite higher usage)

And Lebron's rebound advantage is compromised because MJ leads in offensive rebounds..

Ultimately, MJ's massive scoring edge and his edge in efficiency per possession, orebs, steals, FT %, less TO's, plus all the advanced stats (PER, BPM, WS/48) gives him the statistical edge... Lebron's advantages are weak and/or meaningless by comparison (i.e. defensive rebounds is like comparing MJ's rebounds to KJ's)

mjs per game is better because he quit to rest up and only made 6 finals..duh

if you only played in the 1st and 2nd round your #s are prob better than making it all the way thru to finals, beaten up tired and playing a better team

this is why mjs per game numbers are good. if he made more finals his numbers would go down

its obvious knowledge without realizing it.

players always have their best game scores and such in 1st round or 2nd round. finals game scores are tougher to boost because the comp is the hardest, you are the most tired and the game slows down even more.

just thought people should know this...

[3ball]

mjs per game is better because he quit to rest up and only made 6 finals..duh

if you only played in the 1st and 2nd round your #s are prob better than making it all the way thru to finals, beaten up tired and playing a better team

this is why mjs per game numbers are good. if he made more finals his numbers would go down

its obvious knowledge without realizing it.

players always have their best game scores and such in 1st round or 2nd round. finals game scores are tougher to boost because the comp is the hardest, you are the most tired and the game slows down even more.

just thought people should know this...

MJ's per game has a greater advantage when lebron was younger and fully rested

So no, your counter was defeated

[Indian guy]

So what did Chicago do without him? They fell off (win pace wise) -12, -25, -11 the times he missed significant time. The MJ crowd overplays its hand.

You missed the point. I'm saying the difference between MJ and LeBron doesn't have anything to do with Pippen. They both played on pretty talented teams for long stretches of their careers after all. Yet MJ won quite a bit more than LeBron did. That's because he's the better player. Not because Pippen gave him some unfair advantage from a competitive standpoint over other ATG.

Of course, MJ needed Pippen to win championships. Every team needs multiple stars to win.

[Vino24]

If Jeff Hornacek was LeBrons comp he’d have 8 chips

[Soundwave]

You missed the point. I'm saying the difference between MJ and LeBron doesn't have anything to do with Pippen. They both played on pretty talented teams for long stretches of their careers after all. Yet MJ won quite a bit more than LeBron did. That's because he's the better player. Not because Pippen gave him some unfair advantage from a competitive standpoint over other ATG.

Of course, MJ needed Pippen to win championships. Every team needs multiple stars to win.

Exactly every other top 10 player has played with a ton of talent in their career. It's bull sh*t to claim otherwise.

LeBron has played with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, and now has AD. Jordan had Pippen, Rodman, and Grant.

Also championships can skew things in some cases, but when you are the no.1 player on every championship team .... not really. It's not like Jordan was a no.2 or no.3 option on any of his titles, so all 6 are basically "legit" if you're talking individual legacy.

Jordan is also very clearly a better scorer and probably a better defensive player if you want to really say "well stats only matter" ... well then 10 scoring titles is more than 0 and 1 DPOY + 9x All-Defence 1st team is more than 0 DPOY and only 5x All-Defence.

[Soundwave]

Jordan is a better scorer (10x scoring titles vs. 0 or 1 for LeBron, highest PPG in NBA history)

Jordan is a better closer

Jordan is a better defender (1 DPOY + 9x All Defence 1st team versus 0 DPOY + 5x All Defence)

LeBron is a better playmaker/passer

Jordan is better at steals

LeBron is better at blocks

Rebounding is an edge for LeBron, but the interesting thing here is Michael Jordan actually has a higher career offensive rebounds than LeBron which is very impressive given offensive boards are harder to get. Defensive boards are often just simple gimmes. For a 6'6 player to outrebound a 6'8-6'9 player on the offensive glass is impressive. Jordan's rebounding is underrated.

[Axe]

Jordan is a better scorer (10x scoring titles vs. 0 or 1 for LeBron, highest PPG in NBA history)

Jordan is a better closer

Jordan is a better defender (1 DPOY + 9x All Defence 1st team versus 0 DPOY + 5x All Defence)

LeBron is a better playmaker/passer

Jordan is better at steals

LeBron is better at blocks

Rebounding is an edge for LeBron, but the interesting thing here is Michael Jordan actually has a higher career offensive rebounds than LeBron which is very impressive given offensive boards are harder to get. Defensive boards are often just simply gimmes. For a 6'6 player to outrebound a 6'8-6'9 player on the offensive glass is impressive. Jordan's rebounding is underrated.
The mudslingers wouldn't believe any of that.

[Bronbron23]

If Jeff Hornacek was LeBrons comp he’d have 8 chips

I disagree. So does jason terry

[Roundball_Rock]

You missed the point. I'm saying the difference between MJ and LeBron doesn't have anything to do with Pippen. They both played on pretty talented teams for long stretches of their careers after all. Yet MJ won quite a bit more than LeBron did. That's because he's the better player. Not because Pippen gave him some unfair advantage from a competitive standpoint over other ATG.

Of course, MJ needed Pippen to win championships. Every team needs multiple stars to win.

Understood. :cheers:

[Elosha]

No. Having more stats doesn't mean better at basketball. That's a shallow understanding. Despite the stats, LeBron could be rendered (relatively) ineffective on the court. Meaning, he may get his stats but he's not affecting the game that much. It was much much harder to render MJ ineffective. He may have had bad shooting nights or made some bad decisions here and there but it never seemed like the game overwhelmed him. He was always the focal point. He seemed to always be in control. He knew how to pace himself, knew how to change the momentum of the game, knew how to slow the momentum of the other team and knew when to strike. Sometimes the most crucial points are the ones that stop the momentum of the other team. MJ was great at keeping the deficit within reach to keep his team in the game. He'd hit a shot and earn a couple trips to the free throw line that would stop a 10 point deficit from ballooning to 20. I've seen LeBron fall victim to this way more often. Largely, MJ's effect on the game was timely while LBJ is more cumulative.

Many times you'd forget LeBron was out there and then you'd see he pocketed 28, 7 and 7. MJ always had control of the game and was never just out there even on bad shooting nights. He was always a threat to break out of a slump. He was always a threat to hit a crucial shot even after struggling all night. The other team felt his presence, his leadership and his competitive drive. Even on nights he lost, you knew he was out there. His team was always prepared and always ready.

I've seen LeBron switch off tough assignments (famously KD in the waning seconds of a crucial Finals game), I've seen LeBron standing around midcourt when his team needed someone to step up and stop the bleeding, I've seen LeBron playing at the same pace during critical minutes as he does during the first quarter. LeBron has stepped up many times but there are also times the oppostion can make him uncomfortable enough to overcome his team.

There was no gameplan for MJ. There was no area he wasn't comfortable. He'd kill you if you forced him to drive, shoot or post up. He'd kill you if you defended him with lanky shooting guards, muscular power forwards or quick point guards. The opposing team made a gameplan and basically hoped he'd miss enough to give them a chance. And even then, they needed to contend with that Bulls defense. Making MJ work for points was more effective later in his career but teams like the 96 Sonics and 98 Pacers still couldn't get over the hump because the Bulls shut them down too (and MJ was a large part of that).

Bottom line, MJ was going to make an impact on the court. He was going to be THE focal point of the opposing team, whether it was an off night or not. His team was going to be prepared. His team was going to be competitive. His team was going to play world class defense. Every night. Can't say that about LeBron. There are times a team can make LeBron slouch his shoulders and give in a little bit.

While stats are obviously an important metric, intangibles really do count to, and this^ succinctly explains the differences b/t the two.

[FireDavidKahn]

Best players vs Bulls in 1998 Playoffs based on @bball_ref's Game Score:

Karl Malone 18.5
Sherman Douglas 14.5
Glen Rice 13.6
Reggie Miller 11.6
Vlade Divac 11.0

#TheLastDance


For reference... vs Cavs in 2018 playoff run:

Kevin Durant - 26.9
Stephen Curry - 20.1
Victor Oladipo - 17.9
Kyle Lowry - 16.2
Jonas Valanciunas - 13.9
Draymond Green - 13.7
Al Horford - 13.4
Jalen Brown - 12.1
Jayson Tatum - 12.0
Thaddeus Young - 11.5

Should I keep going?

:bowdown:

[BigShotBob]

This ***** really put Thaddeus Young

[LeCroix]

:bowdown:

Thats a dagger for ledagger

[TheCorporation]

Yes, and if we're being honest, it's a flawed argument at that.

Rings from the 90s simply do not carry the cache of rings from the modern, competitive era. When you additionally take into account the fact that MJ ducked the only other Top 15 player from his era, Hakeem, it really undermines the whole "six rangs" position.

It's not a knock on MJ, mind you. So what, he isn't as great as Lebron, big deal. He's still a top 15 player. Out of thousands of players to have played in the league, all of whom themselves comprise the top .5% of basketball players on the planet.

MJ is literally among the best .001% of basketball players to have lived on planet Earth. He's just not the very best one.

Lebron is.

https://media.giphy.com/media/15BuyagtKucHm/giphy.gif

[3ball]

Yes, and if we're being honest, it's a flawed argument at that.

Rings from the 90s simply do not carry the cache of rings from the modern, competitive era. When you additionally take into account the fact that MJ ducked the only other Top 15 player from his era, Hakeem, it really undermines the whole "six rangs" position.

It's not a knock on MJ, mind you. So what, he isn't as great as Lebron, big deal. He's still a top 15 player. Out of thousands of players to have played in the league, all of whom themselves comprise the top .5% of basketball players on the planet.

MJ is literally among the best .001% of basketball players to have lived on planet Earth. He's just not the very best one.

Lebron is.


SKILL RECAP


Post game - Jordan was called the best post player in the NBA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYsbx66LZbA&t=0m42s), while Lebron was never considered an elite post player

Jumpshooting - Jordan was called the best jumpshooter in the game by the goat talent evaluator (Jerry West - source here (https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=57091082&postcount=15799)).. Furthermore, the stats show that Jordan's jumpshooting volume, efficiency, and production was unprecedented and goat, while Lebron's jumpshooting isn't elite (complete stats for both here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?492972-Which-finals-choke-was-worse-Wilt-1969-s-finals-or-Lebron-s-2011-finals&p=14312634&viewfull=1#post14312634)).. Lebron also defers/avoids contested jumpers (stats here (https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=57091045&postcount=15797)), so his jumpshooting skill is manufactured by playing with multiple stars or 1b's (so he doesn't have to take contested jumpers).

Off-ball game - Jordan was goat off-ball, while Lebron is bad.. Jordan's off-ball ability included a goat drop-step (shown here (https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=57078289&postcount=15706)) and goat jumpshooting production (link in jumpshooting section above), and goat quick-iso ability upon catching the ball (triple-threat).

On-ball game and passing - both Jordan and Lebron demonstrate elite production on-ball (NBC Sports reported that MJ averaged 32/8/9 in 41 games at point guard in his career (https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/warriors/why-michael-jordan-shouldve-been-point-guard-according-don-nelson))... Jordan also had the goat hop-step or jump-stop, which are common off-the-dribble finishing techniques (shown here (https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=57091073&postcount=15798)).. More importantly, Jordan could average 6 to 11 apg without playing PG or bringing the ball up court (he's the only player to average 10 apg in a series without playing PG, aka 1991 Finals).

Team Assists/Ball Movement/Strategy/Brand of Ball/Organic Ability - Jordan's elite jumpshooting skill and off-ball production allowed the best fit with teammates and the best strategy/ball movement, while Lebron's ball-dominance does the opposite (poor teammate fits and low strategy/ball movement).. Furthermore, high scoring from Lebron equals dribble-heavy rim attacks, so he can't win with high scoring (never won outside the 1st round with 35+), while Jordan's jumpshooting allowed ball movement, and therefore won at high scoring or volumes.

Defense - Jordan was top 5 DPOY from 88-98' (and scoring champ), while Lebron hasn't been all-defense in 8 years.. Jordan was frequently called the best defender in the game (here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?383035-Where-do-you-guys-typically-rate-Scottie-Pippen-as-a-player&p=14316540&viewfull=1#post14316540)).

Clutch - Jordan is the goat clutch player by far and led the NBA in clutch points every year (last 5 within 5), while Lebron hasn't hit a winning or tying shot in 10 Finals and frequently had poor clutch stats (and he was a turnover machine).. Complete clutch stats for Lebron and Jordan are shown in the post above (link here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?492972-Which-finals-choke-was-worse-Wilt-1969-s-finals-or-Lebron-s-2011-finals&p=14312629&viewfull=1#post14312629)).

[Bronbron23]

I know right. I mean what does mj being a better winner have to do with him being better? Stats and participation is much more important:facepalm

[AirBonner]

Bill Russell is an even better winner. Yet you fools find a reason to discredit him despite him nearly doubling MJ in rings

[Thenameless]

I'm neither a Lebron nor a Jordan fan.

Jordan's argument extends beyond just rings. He has quite a few dominant scoring titles, quite a few all defensive teams plus a DPoY, and I think he even led the league in steals. He's also a great clutch scorer.

Good arguments can also be made for Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Magic, and Lebron. Maybe even Tim Duncan.

[Thenameless]

You're looking at career totals, but MJ did more per game (#1 all-time in PPG and efficiency rating) and had a higher rate of production (#1 all-time in PER, BPM, WS/48, and all the top VORP seasons)

So MJ wins stats easily, while also winning the accolades and rings categories

But, if you're intellectually honest no one historically can hold a candle to Wilt Chamberlain if we're comparing everyone at their best. He still holds the most records by far. If you measure by individual stats and ability, it's Wilt. If you measure by team success, it's Russell. Guys like Magic, Bird, Jordan, and Lebron fall somewhere in between.

[TheCorporation]

Playoff
Points: LeBron
Steals: LeBron
Game Winners: LeBron
Elim Game PPG: LeBron
Assists: LeBron
Blocks: LeBron
Rebounds: LeBron
Times Leading team in Finals Scoring: LeBron
Strong Rings: LeBron

Damn, it's really over.

[8Ball]

Yes, and if we're being honest, it's a flawed argument at that.

Rings from the 90s simply do not carry the cache of rings from the modern, competitive era. When you additionally take into account the fact that MJ ducked the only other Top 15 player from his era, Hakeem, it really undermines the whole "six rangs" position.

It's not a knock on MJ, mind you. So what, he isn't as great as Lebron, big deal. He's still a top 15 player. Out of thousands of players to have played in the league, all of whom themselves comprise the top .5% of basketball players on the planet.

MJ is literally among the best .001% of basketball players to have lived on planet Earth. He's just not the very best one.

Lebron is.

One of the smartest posters on insidehoops.

This post is dead on.

[Spurs m8]

Watch Jordan play.

You will see everything you need...you will see true basketball skill and killer instinct.

The rings are just a byproduct of that.

Watching Jordan properly may even boost your bball iq

It's not even an argument

[Axe]

Watch Jordan play.

You will see everything you need...you will see true basketball skill and killer instinct.

The rings are just a byproduct of that.

Watching Jordan properly may even boost your bball iq

It's not even an argument
Yes. He has funny three-pointers back in the day.

[8Ball]

Watch Jordan play.

You will see everything you need...you will see true basketball skill and killer instinct.

The rings are just a byproduct of that.

Watching Jordan properly may even boost your bball iq

It's not even an argument

I see a player inferior at basketball than Bron.

Inferior rebounder. Inferior passer.

[hateraid]

It's all subjective to who you favor or what you value. For myself it's eye test and impact. Which can elude to a handful of players

[Full Court]

I see a player inferior at basketball than Bron.

Inferior rebounder. Inferior passer.

There's more to basketball than rebounding and passing. I'll concede that Lebron James is a better rebounder than Jordan was. Possibly a better passer too. But Jordan was a superior scorer, superior defender, superior in the clutch, superior at playing through adversity, superior killer instinct, and I could go on.


Back to the OP, rings are far from the only argument Jordan has over Lebron, but even if it were, 6/6 vs. 4/10 is a pretty freaking good argument.

[Spurs m8]

Still honestly can't believe people have legit been brainwashed into somehow thinking LeBron is a better basketballer lmao

It's nothing more than feelings and emotions pushing it over the line...
No one could really think LeBron is the GOAT...

Top 20? Probably

[RRR3]

Still honestly can't believe people have legit been brainwashed into somehow thinking LeBron is a better basketballer lmao

It's nothing more than feelings and emotions pushing it over the line...
No one could really think LeBron is the GOAT...

Top 20? Probably
This idiot talks about people letting emotions cloud their judgment and then says LeBron is “probably” top 20. Least self-aware poster on ISH. Bordering on having the awareness of a toddler.

[DABIGSALSISHA]

There's more to basketball than rebounding and passing. I'll concede that Lebron James is a better rebounder than Jordan was. Possibly a better passer too. But Jordan was a superior scorer, superior defender, superior in the clutch, superior at playing through adversity, superior killer instinct, and I could go on.


Back to the OP, rings are far from the only argument Jordan has over Lebron, but even if it were, 6/6 vs. 4/10 is a pretty freaking good argument.

Thank you!! :applause::applause::applause:

Just adding to what you said, Jordan was NEVER asked to be a primary rebounder back then, there were Centers, Power Forwards and Forwards in that era for that. That was how the whole bulls system was design back then.

Jordan was asked to SCORE, plain and simple!

Jordan was also better at dunking, better at Free Throws, better at trash talking, better at becoming a Billionaire, better at not saying stupid things, better at not tuning the ball over, :no: never a flopper, never a crier, and I could go on, and on, and on ....

[DABIGSALSISHA]

[QUOTE=Spurs m8;14316649]Still honestly can't believe people have legit been brainwashed into somehow thinking LeBron is a better basketballer lmao

It's nothing more than feelings and emotions pushing it over the line...
No one could really think LeBron is the GOAT...Quote]

Lebron James Competition:

5'9" J.J.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/boxscoregeeks-images/2016-02-26-barea/barea_title.jpg

6'2" TerrAnosaurus lol

https://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_1484w/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2011/06/08/Production/Daily/Sports/Images/GYI0065064309-3287.jpg?t=20170517
https://ogden_images.s3.amazonaws.com/www.ljworld.com/images/2011/06/21234421/cs_mavsjt-1024x821.jpg

https://benkatman.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/jj_1.jpg

They can talk all they want, Jordan never lost to Hornaceck. He did what he was supposed to do.
Lebron lost to JJ, Terry, Tony Parker and so many others he COULDN'T defend. Guy is a HORRIBLE DEFENDER. Taller and Stronger than Jordan, still couldn't beat those guys LMAO

[Spurs m8]

[QUOTE=Spurs m8;14316649]Still honestly can't believe people have legit been brainwashed into somehow thinking LeBron is a better basketballer lmao

It's nothing more than feelings and emotions pushing it over the line...
No one could really think LeBron is the GOAT...Quote]

Lebron James Competition:

5'9" J.J.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/boxscoregeeks-images/2016-02-26-barea/barea_title.jpg

6'2" TerrAnosaurus lol

https://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_1484w/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2011/06/08/Production/Daily/Sports/Images/GYI0065064309-3287.jpg?t=20170517
https://ogden_images.s3.amazonaws.com/www.ljworld.com/images/2011/06/21234421/cs_mavsjt-1024x821.jpg

https://benkatman.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/jj_1.jpg

They can talk all they want, Jordan never lost to Hornaceck. He did what he was supposed to do.
Lebron lost to JJ, Terry, Tony Parker and so many others he COULDN'T defend. Guy is a HORRIBLE DEFENDER. Taller and Stronger than Jordan, still couldn't beat those guys LMAO

Great posting.

Also gave direct opponent - 22year old role player Kawhi - the title of youngest FMVP in the history of the league.

[SATAN]

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iZzlo8RUlPE/TdQ61lcR7zI/AAAAAAAACoU/ElDuusmCIP4/s1600/Michael+Jordan+y+Muggsy+Bogues.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/de/f3/00/def3002aeb4b603b73a637c558782fc0.jpg

[DABIGSALSISHA]

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iZzlo8RUlPE/TdQ61lcR7zI/AAAAAAAACoU/ElDuusmCIP4/s1600/Michael+Jordan+y+Muggsy+Bogues.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/de/f3/00/def3002aeb4b603b73a637c558782fc0.jpg

https://img.olympicchannel.com/images/image/private/t_16-9_360-203_2x/f_auto/v1538355600/primary/as39wxfwhep8mnak7xew
https://media.gq.com/photos/558317a23655c24c6c95a094/1:1/w_434,h_434,c_limit/sports-2012-07-dream-team-2004-dream-team-628.jpg

LeBron's 2004 "Dream Team" Loaded to the Tits = BRONZE Medal

[Walk on Water]

And if so, why isn’t Russell considered better than Jordan? :confusedshrug:


The 10 scoring titles and 10 All NBA defense don't count for shit?

[2much_knowledge]

Better do some more thinking if thats possible lol

Only rings?? Lololololol

2 rings
1 mvp
2 finals mvp
9 scoring tittles
3 steals tittles
1 dpoy
2 three peats

Perfect finals record
No 3 game losing streak in prime
No game 7s
No team jumping
No need to play 20 years. Could afford to retiere twice

Thats a whole hall of fame career between them

Only rings.... hahahhahahahh lololollolo.

[8Ball]

Still honestly can't believe people have legit been brainwashed into somehow thinking LeBron is a better basketballer lmao

It's nothing more than feelings and emotions pushing it over the line...
No one could really think LeBron is the GOAT...

Top 20? Probably

We arent brainwashed, LeBron is a vastly superior floor general.

If you like low IQ Carmelo chucking you gravitate towards Kobe and Jordan.

Such as yourself.

[8Ball]

Better do some more thinking if thats possible lol

Only rings?? Lololololol

2 rings
1 mvp
2 finals mvp
9 scoring tittles
3 steals tittles
1 dpoy
2 three peats

Perfect finals record
No 3 game losing streak in prime
No game 7s
No team jumping
No need to play 20 years. Could afford to retiere twice

Thats a whole hall of fame career between them

Only rings.... hahahhahahahh lololollolo.

Played against random 90s finals teams that would rank in the bottom quartile of finals opponents.

Competition matters.

[BigShotBob]

Better do some more thinking if thats possible lol

Only rings?? Lololololol

2 rings
1 mvp
2 finals mvp
9 scoring tittles
3 steals tittles
1 dpoy
2 three peats

Perfect finals record
No 3 game losing streak in prime
No game 7s
No team jumping
No need to play 20 years. Could afford to retiere twice

Thats a whole hall of fame career between them

Only rings.... hahahhahahahh lololollolo.

Yea, there is a legitimate HOF career gap between the two. That's pretty insane considering the limited amount of time MJ played compared to Lebron.

[8Ball]

Yea, there is a legitimate HOF career gap between the two. That's pretty insane considering the limited amount of time MJ played compared to Lebron.

There sure is a hall of fame gap.

LeBron has 17 all-nba teams.

Jordan has 11.

That's 6 all-nba seasons. 6 seasons to make a hall of fame case. Bron has so much more on Jordan its insane.

[And1AllDay]

Yes, and if we're being honest, it's a flawed argument at that.

Rings from the 90s simply do not carry the cache of rings from the modern, competitive era. When you additionally take into account the fact that MJ ducked the only other Top 15 player from his era, Hakeem, it really undermines the whole "six rangs" position.

It's not a knock on MJ, mind you. So what, he isn't as great as Lebron, big deal. He's still a top 15 player. Out of thousands of players to have played in the league, all of whom themselves comprise the top .5% of basketball players on the planet.

MJ is literally among the best .001% of basketball players to have lived on planet Earth. He's just not the very best one.

Lebron is.


thread was over from the jump, look up

we still talking after the bombshell? :oldlol:

issa wrap

:dancin

[And1AllDay]

There sure is a hall of fame gap.

LeBron has 17 all-nba teams.

Jordan has 11.

That's 6 all-nba seasons. 6 seasons to make a hall of fame case. Bron has so much more on Jordan its insane.

imagine claims of goat when mike did less

less all nbas, finals, pts, rebs, stls, blks, game winners,

:oldlol: mike got 6 cupcake rings but russell laughing with 11. mike's a fraud,

[2much_knowledge]

Yea, there is a legitimate HOF career gap between the two. That's pretty insane considering the limited amount of time MJ played compared to Lebron.

Yup. Its absolutely ridiculous how you can afford to retire twice and have all those accomplishments over your closest player

Kevin Durant is top 15 and fits right into that resume. Insane. Goat gonna goat

Add only one allstar teammate and it makes it devastating

[DABIGSALSISHA]

Played against random 90s finals teams that would rank in the bottom quartile of finals opponents.

Competition matters.

Lost to Greece, Puerto Rico and Argentina with HIS loaded USA Dream Team. LeBronze Cinderella.

https://s.abcnews.com/images/Sports/AP_lebron_01_jef_140709_16x9_992.jpg

[2much_knowledge]

Lost to Greece, Puerto Rico and Argentina with HIS loaded USA Dream Team. LeBronze Cinderella.

https://s.abcnews.com/images/Sports/AP_lebron_01_jef_140709_16x9_992.jpg

Proud of my fellow PRs!! Carlos Arroyo toyed with them in 2004 and Barea carried on in 2011 lol

[DABIGSALSISHA]

Proud of my fellow PRs!! Carlos Arroyo toyed with them in 2004 and Barea carried on in 2011 lol

HAHA LMAO.

https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_fill,w_720,ar_16:9,f_auto,q_auto,g_auto/shape/cover/sport/Anti-Government-Protests-Continue-in-Hong-Kong-da1554550ac606e3f6b7e79b22e7e7ac.jpg

:roll::roll::roll:

LeWeak.

[8Ball]

imagine claims of goat when mike did less

less all nbas, finals, pts, rebs, stls, blks, game winners,

:oldlol: mike got 6 cupcake rings but russell laughing with 11. mike's a fraud,

Looks like this thread is settled.

LeBron family wins again.

[8Ball]

Lost to Greece, Puerto Rico and Argentina with HIS loaded USA Dream Team. LeBronze Cinderella.


LeBron is on an olympic team at 18 while Jordan is on the bench in college :roll:

Jordan spent 3 years in college because he sucked way too much to get drafted at 18 like Bron.

"During his three seasons with the Tar Heels, he averaged 17.7 ppg on 54.0% shooting, and added 5.0 rpg."

Pathetic :lol

[hateraid]

Watch Jordan play.

You will see everything you need...you will see true basketball skill and killer instinct.

The rings are just a byproduct of that.

Watching Jordan properly may even boost your bball iq

It's not even an argument

You're not very intelligent about basketball so there goes that theory out the door

[hateraid]

Lost to Greece, Puerto Rico and Argentina with HIS loaded USA Dream Team. LeBronze Cinderella.

https://s.abcnews.com/images/Sports/AP_lebron_01_jef_140709_16x9_992.jpg

You realize Jordan quit because he was mentally weak right?

[And1AllDay]

Looks like this thread is settled.

LeBron family wins again.

all we know is wins :pimp:

issa win for lefam

[2much_knowledge]

all we know is wins :pimp:

issa win for lefam

Can't win with 3/4 losers agreeing among yourselves when all the others think yall dumb as rocks. Doesn't work like that

[2much_knowledge]

HAHA LMAO.

https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_fill,w_720,ar_16:9,f_auto,q_auto,g_auto/shape/cover/sport/Anti-Government-Protests-Continue-in-Hong-Kong-da1554550ac606e3f6b7e79b22e7e7ac.jpg

:roll::roll::roll:

LeWeak.

Hahahah LeAlmostAWinner

[Shooter]

Yes, and if we're being honest, it's a flawed argument at that.

Rings from the 90s simply do not carry the cache of rings from the modern, competitive era. When you additionally take into account the fact that MJ ducked the only other Top 15 player from his era, Hakeem, it really undermines the whole "six rangs" position.

It's not a knock on MJ, mind you. So what, he isn't as great as Lebron, big deal. He's still a top 15 player. Out of thousands of players to have played in the league, all of whom themselves comprise the top .5% of basketball players on the planet.

MJ is literally among the best .001% of basketball players to have lived on planet Earth. He's just not the very best one.

Lebron is.

[3ba11]

Yes, and if we're being honest, it's a flawed argument at that.

Rings from the 90s simply do not carry the cache of rings from the modern, competitive era. When you additionally take into account the fact that MJ ducked the only other Top 15 player from his era, Hakeem, it really undermines the whole "six rangs" position.

It's not a knock on MJ, mind you. So what, he isn't as great as Lebron, big deal. He's still a top 15 player. Out of thousands of players to have played in the league, all of whom themselves comprise the top .5% of basketball players on the planet.

MJ is literally among the best .001% of basketball players to have lived on planet Earth. He's just not the very best one.

Lebron is.


Jordan's 6 rings are the equivalent of Kawhi winning the chip with PG this year, and then 3-peating twice with PG (and actually a sidekick far worse than PG)

That would make Kawhi goat, but obviously, he can't do that because he isn't MJ

[Rolando]

All you have to do is ask yourself: Who's game would you prefer to have as your own?

Who moves better on the court?
Who handles better?
Who is more explosive?
Who is quicker?
Who's style of dunking is better?
Who has a better shooting motion?
Who has the better mid-range game?
Who is a better finisher?
Who is more itimidating?
Who flops less (or never)?
Who plays better defense?
Who has the better "motor"?

Who is the GOAT? That's right. Now you know.

[Shooter]

Jordan's 6 rings are the equivalent of Kawhi winning the chip with PG this year, and then 3-peating twice with PG (and actually a sidekick far worse than PG)

That would make Kawhi goat, but obviously, he can't do that because he isn't MJ

Only if his Finals opponents were trash ass teams tho :lol Like if he beat the 1998 Jazz every year

[TheMan]

Yes, and if we're being honest, it's a flawed argument at that.

Rings from the 90s simply do not carry the cache of rings from the modern, competitive era. When you additionally take into account the fact that MJ ducked the only other Top 15 player from his era, Hakeem, it really undermines the whole "six rangs" position.

It's not a knock on MJ, mind you. So what, he isn't as great as Lebron, big deal. He's still a top 15 player. Out of thousands of players to have played in the league, all of whom themselves comprise the top .5% of basketball players on the planet.

MJ is literally among the best .001% of basketball players to have lived on planet Earth. He's just not the very best one.

Lebron is.

Ok starface.

[TheMan]

All you have to do is ask yourself: Who's game would you prefer to have as your own?

Who moves better on the court?
Who handles better?
Who is more explosive?
Who is quicker?
Who's style of dunking is better?
Who has a better shooting motion?
Who has the better mid-range game?
Who is a better finisher?
Who is more itimidating?
Who flops less (or never)?
Who plays better defense?
Who has the better "motor"?

Who is the GOAT? That's right. Now you know.

What if you find the crab dribble and stiff arming the opponent to the rim cool, though? lol

[Shooter]

Ok starface.

I'm not starface

[Airupthere]

If we are to send the GOAT athletes of each sport elsewhere to compete for us, life and death, I dont think Lebron is the right person you should bet your life on. His stats won't save him. It will be all the intangibles that unfortunately, he does not possess. He has size and athleticism and cupcaking officiating catering to his strengths. He can't even join the dunk contest.

[Shooter]

If we are to send the GOAT athletes of each sport elsewhere to compete for us, life and death, I dont think Lebron is the right person you should bet your life on. His stats won't save him. It will be all the intangibles that unfortunately, he does not possess. He has size and athleticism and cupcaking officiating catering to his strengths. He can't even join the dunk contest.

2016 says you're confused with reality :lol


What was MJ's greatest adversary again?

[Airupthere]

2016 says you're confused with reality :lol


What was MJ's greatest adversary again?

Lebron is very inconsistent in terms of guts. 2011, 2014, and 2021 say you are confused with reality.

[Airupthere]

What if you find the crab dribble and stiff arming the opponent to the rim cool, though? lol

No one wants to play like Lebron. No kid shouts Lebron when taking shots.

[Shooter]

Lebron is very inconsistent in terms of guts. 2011, 2014, and 2021 say you are confused with reality.

I'll ask you a second time now--don't be shook

What was MJ's greatest adversary?

[RogueBorg]

And if so, why isn’t Russell considered better than Jordan? :confusedshrug:

Because Jordan and LeBron were great on both sides of the ball. Russell wasn't.

[RogueBorg]

Only if his Finals opponents were trash ass teams tho :lol Like if he beat the 1998 Jazz every year

Tell me the equivalent of the 2011 Mavericks Jordan lost to....I'll wait.

[Bronbron23]

Only if his Finals opponents were trash ass teams tho :lol Like if he beat the 1998 Jazz every year

Meanwhile bron just won a ring beating the weakest finals team ever. These bron stans are so unaware:facepalm

[Shooter]

Tell me the equivalent of the 2011 Mavericks Jordan lost to....I'll wait.

1985 Bucks

MJ lost to an UNRANKED Terry Cummings

Dirk is top 15

:lol 2ez baby boi

[000]

1985 Bucks

MJ lost to an UNRANKED Terry Cummings

Dirk is top 15

:lol 2ez baby boi

sidney moncrief is ranked

[Shooter]

lebron still needs to win one more ring to close the gap.



if he does he is the GOAT :)

Baaaang! LeQuatroooo

[Shooter]

sidney moncrief is ranked

Oh, my bad. Top 90 :lol

Next

:hammertime:

[RogueBorg]

1985 Bucks

MJ lost to an UNRANKED Terry Cummings

Dirk is top 15

:lol 2ez baby boi

They didn't meet in Finals, I know the 2011 Mavericks have you shook, take a deep breath and try to focus.

[Shooter]

They didn't meet in Finals, I know the 2011 Mavericks have you shook, take a deep breath and try to focus.

Was that it? :lol

LBJ lost to Dirk (top 15-20 player)

MJ lost to Moncrief (top 85-100)

Anything else?

[RogueBorg]

Was that it? :lol

LBJ lost to Dirk (top 15-20 player)

MJ lost to Moncrief (top 85-100)

Anything else?

We were talking Finals but since you've expanded to all playoffs, Lebron has now missed the playoffs 3x from his rookie year through his prime. The Bulls were immediate playoff contenders when Jordan arrived, can the Cavs say that about LeGone?

Say "no" Uncle Rogue

[RogueBorg]

Was that it? :lol

LBJ lost to Dirk (top 15-20 player)

MJ lost to Moncrief (top 85-100)

Anything else?

Surely the Cavs made the playoffs in LeGone's 2nd year right?

Say "no" Uncle Rogue

[000]

Oh, my bad. Top 90 :lol

Next

:hammertime:
So a rookie with a ~25 win team lost to a bucks team with all-nba 2nd teamers cummings & moncrief that nearly won 60. Cummings was a top 10 scorer that season like booker btw. Essentially rookie mj did at least as well as lebron this year since lebron won 0 playoff games without AD. What a blemish, wow

Any other stupid arguments you have?

[000]

Was that it? :lol

LBJ lost to Dirk (top 15-20 player)

MJ lost to Moncrief (top 85-100)

Anything else?
Lebron lost to the entire league in his first two years, moron. He didnt even make the playoffs to be destroyed by, say, the 2004 pistons. Can you imagine his numbers against them?:roll:

[RogueBorg]

Any other stupid arguments you have?

I think Shooter has a lot of stupid arguments left in him. He's in full China Syndrome since LeBron got bounced in the 1st round.

[000]

I think Shooter has a lot of stupid arguments left in him. He's in full China Syndrome since LeBron got bounced in the 1st round.
:cheers:

[TheCorporation]

True and if we're being honest, it's a flawed argument at that. Rings from the 90s simply do not carry the cache of rings from the modern, competitive era. Additionally, when you take into account the fact that MJ ducked the only other Top 15 player from his era, Hakeem, it really undermines the whole "six rangs" position.

It's not a knock on MJ, mind you. So what, he isn't as great as Lebron, big deal. MJ is still a top 15 player out of thousands of players to have played in the league, all of whom themselves comprise the top 0.5% of basketball players on the planet.

MJ is literally among the best .001% of basketball players to have lived on planet Earth he's just not the very best one.

Lebron is.

[2much_knowledge]

Better do some more thinking if thats possible lol

Only rings?? Lololololol

2 rings
1 mvp
2 finals mvp
9 scoring tittles
3 steals tittles
1 dpoy
2 three peats

Perfect finals record
No 3 game losing streak in prime
No game 7s
No team jumping
No need to play 20 years. Could afford to retiere twice

Thats a whole hall of fame career between them

Only rings.... hahahhahahahh lololollolo.


Just a reminder lol

[000]

Just a reminder lol

Thats arguably a top 10 career if you think about it, not just HOF. Holy shit lol

[Pip' N Rodman]

Thats arguably a top 10 career if you think about it, not just HOF. Holy shit lol

No because that guy would have a negative amount of All-NBA teams, playoff points, and playoff gamewinners lol

[Bronbron23]

No. Without singling out Lebron, Jordan is just on a different level mentally than anybody else. The only player I think comes close is Larry Bird. Jordan is like a true life legend, character wise.

The way I imagine is like this. Imagine a narrator reading from the history books, the Jordan story is filled with non stop iconic moments of always coming through. From the countless stories of people talking shit to Jordan and without fail Jordan going into that next level and destroying them, to one of the most incredible moments in sports history, the flu game. From the media saying that he didn't have it anymore when he was with the Wizards, and then Jordan scoring 51 points the next game, and I think 45 the following game as an old player, to him hitting 6 3-pointers in the first half of an NBA Finals game because they were saying that Clyde was the better 3 point shooter. The Jordan story from start to finish reads like a legend. Just constantly overcoming, taking over. And that's not by luck, coincidence, that's simply from his unique character that only a true GOAT would have.

On the other hand, Lebron. From phantom elbows, losing to Dwight Howard and the Orlando Magics despite having the team with the best record in the league with 66 wins. The historically weak East. And the biggest one of all, 2011. How would his career sound with the narrator reading from the history books? It's just not going to be filled with these non stops legendary moments. There might be some, but it's mostly filled with so much shit.

"And then the mighty Lebron threw up a 3-pointer, he missed the shot, but destiny will not be denied. Luckily for the GOAT, Tim Duncan was on the bench, Chris Bosch got the rebound, was able to pass it to Ray Allen who hit one of the clutches 3 point shots that had ever been taken. Saving his legacy." Or, the mighty Lebron faced the mighty Golden State Warriors, who set out to break the Bulls 72-10 record, in a league with a new culture of load management. Things looked desperate for Lebron, but again he would not be denied. With the help of suspensions, and injuries to the Golden State Warriors, Lebron was able to come back, sealing the game with a dagger 3 by Kyrie Irving.

That being my favorite Finals of all time. So I'm not a Lebron hater.

Ahhh nope. Mvps, fmvp's, scoring titles, all defensive teams and dpoys.

When i think about it you didn't actually think about this one at all buddy:facepalm

[2much_knowledge]

Thats arguably a top 10 career if you think about it, not just HOF. Holy shit lol

It is. But people like op have the audacity to even imply that rings are the only separator. As if they been living under a rock or something

[HoopsNY]

There's too much to write about with regards to this topic, but MJ was able to do so much in such a small amount of time. Within 11 full seasons (played just 17 games in '86 on restricted minutes and 17 games in 1995 after missing nearly two years), he had some of the greatest accomplishments history has ever seen.

For one, his peak '88-'93 was easily the best ever.

RS '88-'93: 33/7/6/3/1 on 53/32/85

Playoffs '88-'93 : 35/7/7/2/1 on 51/36/83

Finals (3-0) '88-'93: 36/7/8/2/1 on 53/42/80

It just seemed like he got better as the season progressed and as they went deeper into the playoffs, particularly in the finals.

By 1991, there were discussions about him being the GOAT. By 1993, it was solidified and much of the media, all fans, and most players were saying it. Whatever happened after that year was really icing on the cake.

But MJ was far more dominant than LeBron has been. Again, within his first 11 full seasons, he led the league in:

PER: 7x
OWS: 8x
WS: 9x
WS/48: 8x
OBPM: 9x
DBPM: 2x
BPM: 9x
VORP: 9x

LeBron has not dominated the league in any of these categories in 18 seasons of play in anywhere near a similar rate. That's a significant difference if you're talking about MJ's first 11 full seasons vs LeBron's 16 full seasons (LeBron played just 45 games this year and 55 in 2019, so I discounted that).

MJ was the superior defensive player. He was DPOY and was a legitimate DPOY candidate through his peak. LeBron gets credit for being the more versatile defender. While this is true, it doesn't mean he was an effective defensive player against the 1 or the 5. He gets praised for 2 games against Derrick Rose and a series of play in a regular season against Pau Gasol in 2013 which is a joke.

But if we're gonna there, MJ's on the ball defense against Vlade Divac resulted in him going 1-3 one-on-one in the 1991 finals in the 3rd and 4th quarters. LeBron could definitely be effective against most 2s, 3s, and 4s during his peak. But MJ could be effective vs most 1s, 2s, and 3s, during his.

Any way you slice it, MJ was still the better on the ball and help defender. He was a menace defensively, particularly between 1986-93. LeBron gets mostly praised for his defensive abilities between '09-'13. Jordan won All-Defensive 1st Team 9x to LeBron's 5x. 1 DPOY to LeBron's 0.

But probably the most glaring aspect are clutch stats. These stats aren't updated for the last two years, but someone on RealGM had done Clutch Stats for a number of guys up to 2019 I believe, while watching every single tape of MJ in the playoffs and recording them as PER 48. To be fair, I don't know the entire accuracy of them, but they sound about right. It would be interesting if we got an updated list including the last two playoffs.

Clutch Stats (Playoffs)

Durant: 35.5 pts, 9.0 reb, 3.2 ass, 1.6 stl, 1.6 blk on 41.5 %FG/25.0 %3P/83.8 %FT with 4.6 tov; 53.8 %TS

Dirk: 36.9 pts, 13.7 reb, 3.2 ass, 0.9 blk, 0.9 blk on 36.5 %FG/37.9 %3P/92.6 %FT with 2.4 tov; 58.9 %TS

Curry: 41.4 pts, 6.6 reb, 5.6 ass, 1.4 stl, 0.0 blk on 37.4 %FG/39.4 %3P/94.5 %FT with 3.8 tov; 56.7 %TS

Lebron: 42.5 pts, 10.7 reb, 7.9 ass, 1.8 stl, 1.8 blk on 40.7 %FG/35.3 %3P/76.0 %FT with 4.6 tov; 54.5 %TS

Kobe: 43.1 pts, 5.9 reb, 4.7 ass, 1.3 stl, 0.6 blk on 39.6 %FG/23.4 %3P/83.2 %FT with 2.9 tov; 54.1 %TS

Jordan: 61.1 pts, 7.8 reb, 4.8 ass, 3.9 stl, 1.4 blk on 52.0 %FG/25.0 %3P/83.0 %FT with 3.3 tov; 62.5 %TS


Needless to say, MJ blows everyone out of the water. And clutch stats are far more important than the oft repeated "buzzer beater" meme that's always used by LeBron fans.

And lastly, I do think LeBron probably wins every finals MJ was in except for 1993. I don't think LeBron would have provided the scoring necessary for Chicago to win it all that year.

I also believe MJ doesn't wet the bed in 2007 the way LeBron did in the finals. He may not have pulled off a victory, but he certainly would not have played anywhere near as poorly. Games 3 and 4 were decided by a total of 4 points. It's very likely MJ pulls off victories in those games due to his immense ability in the 4th quarter/OT clutch factor.

MJ also wins in 2011. There's no way he performs that poorly against guys like Terry and Barea. And I also think that MJ leads the Cavs to more wins in 2015 and 2017 against Golden State, mostly because his defense would allow him to neutralize Steph and Klay, though he ultimately loses those series. He was really never outplayed by a teammate or opponent, whereas LeBron has.

These are my primary reasons and we could dig a bit deeper, but I generally don't believe that they're close. And notice I mentioned nothing about being 6/6. I think that's mostly irrelevant. Peak/Prime is what matters.

[And1AllDay]

true

https://i.postimg.cc/k50RjLf5/MJ_was_a_fraud_big_time.png

[kawhileonard2]

Better do some more thinking if thats possible lol

Only rings?? Lololololol

2 rings
1 mvp
2 finals mvp
9 scoring tittles
3 steals tittles
1 dpoy
2 three peats

Perfect finals record
No 3 game losing streak in prime
No game 7s
No team jumping
No need to play 20 years. Could afford to retiere twice

Thats a whole hall of fame career between them

Only rings.... hahahhahahahh lololollolo.

2 Gold Medals while Lebron has 2 bronze medals thus named Lebronze James.

[Orange_Cassidy]

i think jordans argument for being goat is he has the perfect blend of stats, individual accomplishments, skill, career, aesthetics, respect and popularity with almost no blemishes. and he was the main guy from start to finish

like for instance. lebrons great but he doesn't have the aesthetics or respect. he has tons of blemishes and lacks in some major skills like foot work, post ups, mid range, free throws etc... and he was 2nd fiddle in the 2011 finals and 2020 for most of the year

kareem has the career but lacks in aesthetics, skills other than big man moves, respect due to being a big/ a quiet muslim and has some major blemishes

russell has the career but lacks in aesthetics, skills other than defense and playmaking, respect due to his era and is mostly forgotten by todays fans

kobe has the career, aesthetics, skills, respect, popularity, peak, prime, a few blemishes but lacks in averages due to coming out of highschool and ripping his achilles, and he also lacks in individual awards due to his rape trial



jordan is really the only choice for goat. hes by far the most popular/polarizing world wide. when people are great in their sport others say "hes the michael jordan of his sport"

thats just something nobody will ever eclipse. he still sells more shoes and apparel than lebron and he hasn't touched an nba court in 20+ years

[And1AllDay]

i think jordans argument for being goat is he has the perfect blend of stats, individual accomplishments, skill, career, aesthetics, respect and popularity with almost no blemishes. and he was the main guy from start to finish

like for instance. lebrons great but he doesn't have the aesthetics or respect. he has tons of blemishes and lacks in some major skills like foot work, post ups, mid range, free throws etc... and he was 2nd fiddle in the 2011 finals and 2020 for most of the year

kareem has the career but lacks in aesthetics, skills other than big man moves, respect due to being a big/ a quiet muslim and has some major blemishes

russell has the career but lacks in aesthetics, skills other than defense and playmaking, respect due to his era and is mostly forgotten by todays fans

kobe has the career, aesthetics, skills, respect, popularity, peak, prime, a few blemishes but lacks in averages due to coming out of highschool and ripping his achilles, and he also lacks in individual awards due to his rape trial



jordan is really the only choice for goat. hes by far the most popular/polarizing world wide. when people are great in their sport others say "hes the michael jordan of his sport"

thats just something nobody will ever eclipse. he still sells more shoes and apparel than lebron and he hasn't touched an nba court in 20+ years

https://i.postimg.cc/j5xHFvqz/Le7631._Unbreakable.png

[3ba11]

Remember when a guard got 70 and 18 rebounds in the modern era?

i mean 69

so mj could play the rebounder role that Giannis, Lebron and Shaq played, while also playing the closer role that they can't.

[Axe]

There's too much to write about with regards to this topic, but MJ was able to do so much in such a small amount of time. Within 11 full seasons (played just 17 games in '86 on restricted minutes and 17 games in 1995 after missing nearly two years), he had some of the greatest accomplishments history has ever seen.

For one, his peak '88-'93 was easily the best ever.

RS '88-'93: 33/7/6/3/1 on 53/32/85

Playoffs '88-'93 : 35/7/7/2/1 on 51/36/83

Finals (3-0) '88-'93: 36/7/8/2/1 on 53/42/80

It just seemed like he got better as the season progressed and as they went deeper into the playoffs, particularly in the finals.

By 1991, there were discussions about him being the GOAT. By 1993, it was solidified and much of the media, all fans, and most players were saying it. Whatever happened after that year was really icing on the cake.

But MJ was far more dominant than LeBron has been. Again, within his first 11 full seasons, he led the league in:

PER: 7x
OWS: 8x
WS: 9x
WS/48: 8x
OBPM: 9x
DBPM: 2x
BPM: 9x
VORP: 9x

LeBron has not dominated the league in any of these categories in 18 seasons of play in anywhere near a similar rate. That's a significant difference if you're talking about MJ's first 11 full seasons vs LeBron's 16 full seasons (LeBron played just 45 games this year and 55 in 2019, so I discounted that).

MJ was the superior defensive player. He was DPOY and was a legitimate DPOY candidate through his peak. LeBron gets credit for being the more versatile defender. While this is true, it doesn't mean he was an effective defensive player against the 1 or the 5. He gets praised for 2 games against Derrick Rose and a series of play in a regular season against Pau Gasol in 2013 which is a joke.

But if we're gonna there, MJ's on the ball defense against Vlade Divac resulted in him going 1-3 one-on-one in the 1991 finals in the 3rd and 4th quarters. LeBron could definitely be effective against most 2s, 3s, and 4s during his peak. But MJ could be effective vs most 1s, 2s, and 3s, during his.

Any way you slice it, MJ was still the better on the ball and help defender. He was a menace defensively, particularly between 1986-93. LeBron gets mostly praised for his defensive abilities between '09-'13. Jordan won All-Defensive 1st Team 9x to LeBron's 5x. 1 DPOY to LeBron's 0.

But probably the most glaring aspect are clutch stats. These stats aren't updated for the last two years, but someone on RealGM had done Clutch Stats for a number of guys up to 2019 I believe, while watching every single tape of MJ in the playoffs and recording them as PER 48. To be fair, I don't know the entire accuracy of them, but they sound about right. It would be interesting if we got an updated list including the last two playoffs.

Clutch Stats (Playoffs)

Durant: 35.5 pts, 9.0 reb, 3.2 ass, 1.6 stl, 1.6 blk on 41.5 %FG/25.0 %3P/83.8 %FT with 4.6 tov; 53.8 %TS

Dirk: 36.9 pts, 13.7 reb, 3.2 ass, 0.9 blk, 0.9 blk on 36.5 %FG/37.9 %3P/92.6 %FT with 2.4 tov; 58.9 %TS

Curry: 41.4 pts, 6.6 reb, 5.6 ass, 1.4 stl, 0.0 blk on 37.4 %FG/39.4 %3P/94.5 %FT with 3.8 tov; 56.7 %TS

Lebron: 42.5 pts, 10.7 reb, 7.9 ass, 1.8 stl, 1.8 blk on 40.7 %FG/35.3 %3P/76.0 %FT with 4.6 tov; 54.5 %TS

Kobe: 43.1 pts, 5.9 reb, 4.7 ass, 1.3 stl, 0.6 blk on 39.6 %FG/23.4 %3P/83.2 %FT with 2.9 tov; 54.1 %TS

Jordan: 61.1 pts, 7.8 reb, 4.8 ass, 3.9 stl, 1.4 blk on 52.0 %FG/25.0 %3P/83.0 %FT with 3.3 tov; 62.5 %TS


Needless to say, MJ blows everyone out of the water. And clutch stats are far more important than the oft repeated "buzzer beater" meme that's always used by LeBron fans.

And lastly, I do think LeBron probably wins every finals MJ was in except for 1993. I don't think LeBron would have provided the scoring necessary for Chicago to win it all that year.

I also believe MJ doesn't wet the bed in 2007 the way LeBron did in the finals. He may not have pulled off a victory, but he certainly would not have played anywhere near as poorly. Games 3 and 4 were decided by a total of 4 points. It's very likely MJ pulls off victories in those games due to his immense ability in the 4th quarter/OT clutch factor.

MJ also wins in 2011. There's no way he performs that poorly against guys like Terry and Barea. And I also think that MJ leads the Cavs to more wins in 2015 and 2017 against Golden State, mostly because his defense would allow him to neutralize Steph and Klay, though he ultimately loses those series. He was really never outplayed by a teammate or opponent, whereas LeBron has.

These are my primary reasons and we could dig a bit deeper, but I generally don't believe that they're close. And notice I mentioned nothing about being 6/6. I think that's mostly irrelevant. Peak/Prime is what matters.
But other guys here would point out what has he won or done without tree trunk scottie pippen.

[3ba11]

But other guys here would point out what has he won or done without tree trunk scottie pippen.


it means nothing to say that Jordan won with Pippen because Pippen wasn't that good - he was a defensive role player and massively overrated by dummies who only see his 6 rings - their elementary brains can't stop thinking "b-b-but 6 rings doh".. The reality is that Pippen played horribly in EVERY PLAYOFFS except 1991 and most of 1992, while virtually never playing anywhere near a top 50 all-time level in the regular season or playoffs - it's preposterous - he literally never dominated or took over games... ever

[Axe]

it means nothing to say that Jordan won with Pippen because Pippen wasn't that good - he was a defensive role player and massively overrated by dummies who only see his 6 rings - their elementary brains can't stop thinking "b-b-but 6 rings doh".. The reality is that Pippen played horribly in EVERY PLAYOFFS except 1991 and most of 1992, while virtually never playing anywhere near a top 50 all-time level in the regular season or playoffs - it's preposterous - he literally never dominated or took over games... ever
You call him a role player yet he's won more playoff series than your hero ever did in his entire career :roll:

[3ba11]

You call him a role player yet he's won more playoff series than your hero ever did in his entire career :roll:

as a role player

he never won a single series as the man, except the 1st round in 94' against a team that was without their entire starting 5

[Axe]

as a role player

he never won a single series as the man, except the 1st round in 94' against a team that was without their entire starting 5
At least it's not as worse than being 1-9 though

[Bawkish]

https://i.postimg.cc/j5xHFvqz/Le7631._Unbreakable.png

The Pete Rose of Basketball

[Orange_Cassidy]

The Pete Rose of Basketball

the oscar schmidt of his era

[2much_knowledge]

i think jordans argument for being goat is he has the perfect blend of stats, individual accomplishments, skill, career, aesthetics, respect and popularity with almost no blemishes. and he was the main guy from start to finish

like for instance. lebrons great but he doesn't have the aesthetics or respect. he has tons of blemishes and lacks in some major skills like foot work, post ups, mid range, free throws etc... and he was 2nd fiddle in the 2011 finals and 2020 for most of the year

kareem has the career but lacks in aesthetics, skills other than big man moves, respect due to being a big/ a quiet muslim and has some major blemishes

russell has the career but lacks in aesthetics, skills other than defense and playmaking, respect due to his era and is mostly forgotten by todays fans

kobe has the career, aesthetics, skills, respect, popularity, peak, prime, a few blemishes but lacks in averages due to coming out of highschool and ripping his achilles, and he also lacks in individual awards due to his rape trial



jordan is really the only choice for goat. hes by far the most popular/polarizing world wide. when people are great in their sport others say "hes the michael jordan of his sport"

thats just something nobody will ever eclipse. he still sells more shoes and apparel than lebron and he hasn't touched an nba court in 20+ years

Well said. Sums it up nicely. Btw, how do you type with your hands in the pockets??