93 mjs biggest obstacke to 3peak, New York Knicks ?????

[LeCroix]

The Last dance docu talks about this, asks david aldridge 'who was bulls greatest obstacle to 3 peak?' and david says without question New York Knicks. Is this a real thing to think to?
Knicks second option is John Starks.

WHAT ?!!!!

Pippen averaged 23-7-4 in that ecf series
Almost outscored Knicks #1 Ewing at 25.8.

Pip matched Ewing... and John Starks was the #2

https://images.app.goo.gl/wJ2WRtSdeUznC99M6

[MrFonzworth]

Basketball was a clownfest back then.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yup, the Knicks were the Bull's biggest rival. They met them in the playoffs from 1991-1994 and then in 1996. The Pacers are another candidate but they only played the Bulls in 98' and their best years tended to be when MJ was retired. Orlando lasted only 2 years as a contender. Cleveland is a candidate for second and met the Bulls several times but they never threatened to win a series and made only 1 ECF. Knicks had some level of consistent second tier (i.e., all the good teams behind Chicago) success that overlapped well with the Bulls' window.

[LeCroix]

Yup, the Knicks were the Bull's biggest rival. They met them in the playoffs from 1991-1994 and then in 1996. The Pacers are another candidate but they only played the Bulls in 98' and their best years tended to be when MJ was retired. Orlando lasted only 2 years as a contender. Cleveland is a candidate for second and met the Bulls several times but they never threatened to win a series and made only 1 ECF. Knicks had some level of consistent second tier (i.e., all the good teams behind Chicago) success that overlapped well with the Bulls' window.

is that a joke???? John Starks was the literal best roadblock to a mj 3peak???? And in 93 Pippen matched Knicks #1 option ????

[Roundball_Rock]

is that a joke???? John Starks was the literal best roadblock to a mj 3peak???? And in 93 Pippen matched Knicks #1 option ????

Yup. What "some people" want you to think is every team back then had a Pippen as their second option. Only Utah and Orlando did and their are two key distinctions: Orlando had Shaq/Penny with Penny a superstar for only 2 years and while Stockton was great he was never a MVP candidate like Pippen was. Notice that they always compare Pippen to Magic or Wade or Irving or X from a completely different era. They never talk about second options in that era, which is the relevant question.

[LostCause]

Those Knicks weren't known for their offense, the offense wasn't even league average. They were so good because they were a historically great defensive juggernaut

They had an rDRTG of -8.3, only 8 other teams in NBA history had an rDRTG of -8.0 or better. Bill Russell's Celtics took 4 spots & the other 4 are KG's 08 Celtics (-8.6), Duncan's 04 Spurs (-8.8), and Ewings 93 (-8.3) and 94 Knicks (-8.1)

[tpols]

Those Knicks weren't known for their offense, the offense wasn't even league average. They were so good because they were a historically great defensive juggernaut

They had an rDRTG of -8.3, only 8 other teams in NBA history had an rDRTG of -8.0 or better. Bill Russell's Celtics took 4 spots & the other 4 are KG's 08 Celtics (-8.6), Duncan's 04 Spurs (-8.8), and Ewings 93 (-8.3) and 94 Knicks (-8.1)


Talking ORTG and DRTG, Ewing had higher than Jordan with less offensive help.

What does that tell you?

It's not like the Bull's were a poor defensive team... they were a damn near powerhouse too.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Knicks having no offense is ultimately what felled them. When they needed a basket they often couldn't get it because they had only one reliable scorer. One sided teams can get close but you have to have some semblance of balance to win a championship.


It's not like the Bull's were a poor defensive team... they were a damn near powerhouse too.

Good point.

Knicks' defensive rank (91'-97'): 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 4th, 2nd
Bulls' defensive rank (91'-97'): 4th, 7th, 6th, 2nd, 1st, 4th

Knicks' offensive rank (91'-97'): 12th, 22nd, 16th, 16th, 21st, 25th
Bulls' offensive rank (91'-97'): 1st, 2nd, 14th, 10th, 1st, 1st

These numbers speak for themselves.

The Bulls' defensive rank is lower than expected but they had a lot of blowouts and garbage time that probably skewed the stats a bit.

[Manny98]

Those Knicks weren't known for their offense, the offense wasn't even league average. They were so good because they were a historically great defensive juggernaut

They had an rDRTG of -8.3, only 8 other teams in NBA history had an rDRTG of -8.0 or better. Bill Russell's Celtics took 4 spots & the other 4 are KG's 08 Celtics (-8.6), Duncan's 04 Spurs (-8.8), and Ewings 93 (-8.3) and 94 Knicks (-8.1)
So MJs toughest comp were only elite on one end of the floor, yikes :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

So MJs toughest comp were only elite on one end of the floor, yikes :oldlol:

Not only that, they were consistently below league average on offense.

[LostCause]

It's not like the Bull's were a poor defensive team... they were a damn near powerhouse too.

They were a strong defense but NY was just on another level that year (and the year after)

For example the gap between 1st and 2nd (for DRTG that year) is 5.2. That gap alone is a better mark than most teams get historically and is about an above-average level defense (ie, an rDRTG of -5.2 is pretty good). 2014 Spurs as an example had an rDRTG of -4.3


So MJs toughest comp were only elite on one end of the floor, yikes :oldlol:

There's elite then there's historically good

Kinda like those Pacers/Bulls teams from 2013 and 14 (but better defensively) or the Pistons from 04

The Knicks were the bigger obstacle probably due to their defense and how dominant it was, but I think Phoenix that year were the better team (1st Offensively, 9th Defensively)

[LeCroix]

So MJs toughest comp were only elite on one end of the floor, yikes :oldlol:

one way players :lol

[DoctorP]

Knicks were a GOAT defensive juggernaut but didnt have enough offense to reach Pistons levels of success.

[86Celtics]

So MJs toughest comp were only elite on one end of the floor, yikes :oldlol:

They were tough and they could be brutal. Considering how weak the East has been they would have been a perennial favourite to reach the finals.

[Whoah10115]

The Last dance docu talks about this, asks david aldridge 'who was bulls greatest obstacle to 3 peak?' and david says without question New York Knicks. Is this a real thing to think to?
Knicks second option is John Starks.

WHAT ?!!!!

Pippen averaged 23-7-4 in that ecf series
Almost outscored Knicks #1 Ewing at 25.8.

Pip matched Ewing... and John Starks was the #2

https://images.app.goo.gl/wJ2WRtSdeUznC99M6

So 23 is almost more than 25.8?

And Scottie at 22.FIVE gets rounded up whilst Ewing's remains the same?

I know that you know what you did. I don't know if you know that you are not a troll, but rather a loser.

A fact that will is stained in truth when you figure this response is a victory for you.

[LeCroix]

So 23 is almost more than 25.8?

And Scottie at 22.FIVE gets rounded up whilst Ewing's remains the same?

I know that you know what you did. I don't know if you know that you are not a troll, but rather a loser.

A fact that will is stained in truth when you figure this response is a victory for you.

Pip as a #2 scored only 3 less then the 'powerhouser' Knicks #1 option



Better? :lol

[Gimmedarock]

I watched some of a Knicks game the other day on YouTube. If that was the biggest threat to the Bulls back then, that team could even remotely hang today. The game I watched was just a bunch of chest bumping and posting up. I think it was against the Pistons in 1992. No offense at all.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Knicks were the #1 ranked defense that season, I think that was what Aldridge was referencing too. So Bulls had to beat the #1 defense Knicks and in finals they had to beat the MVP. That's a pretty tough path for a team that is dead tired from going on 3 straight titles. Remember, the last team to 3peat was 18 years ago! 3peats are very grinding to say the least.

[Goldrush25]

I liked those Knicks teams, but they were severely flawed. Low on shooting, low on talent. They made their living on tough defense.

[LeCroix]

I liked those Knicks teams, but they were severely flawed. Low on shooting, low on talent. They made their living on tough defense.

Big cosignage

[GimmeThat]

93 Bulls FT%.733
23.8 FTA per game
25.5 FTA per 100

93 Knicks FT%.741
28.2 FTA per game
29.5 FTA per 100

but they lost on the offensive rebounding edge

I think it's safe to say the Knicks are the reason Tracy McGrady ended up being categorized as a SG instead of a SF.

[Axe]

Knicks were the #1 ranked defense that season, I think that was what Aldridge was referencing too. So Bulls had to beat the #1 defense Knicks and in finals they had to beat the MVP. That's a pretty tough path for a team that is dead tired from going on 3 straight titles. Remember, the last team to 3peat was 18 years ago! 3peats are very grinding to say the least.
And it's a coincidence that phil jackson still was the mastermind in the last 3-peat.

[Roundball_Rock]

I watched some of a Knicks game the other day on YouTube. If that was the biggest threat to the Bulls back then, that team could even remotely hang today. The game I watched was just a bunch of chest bumping and posting up. I think it was against the Pistons in 1992. No offense at all.

They were a legit #2 away but that is the problem. Pippen, Stockton, Penny were exceptions to the rule (and Penny didn't last). With the Knicks' dominant defense if they had a decent offense they could have swing a lot of those losses their way.

[ralph_i_el]

Knicks were the #1 ranked defense that season, I think that was what Aldridge was referencing too. So Bulls had to beat the #1 defense Knicks and in finals they had to beat the MVP. That's a pretty tough path for a team that is dead tired from going on 3 straight titles. Remember, the last team to 3peat was 18 years ago! 3peats are very grinding to say the least.

Not only were they the #1 D for 2 straight seasons, they are one of the few teams to be 8 points per 100 possessions better on D than the average team that season. It's a mark matched by only a few other teams in history.

[97 bulls]

Not only were they the #1 D for 2 straight seasons, they are one of the few teams to be 8 points per 100 possessions better on D than the average team that season. It's a mark matched by only a few other teams in history.

Which year 93 or 94? I could've swore I heard that the 94 Knicks were one of the best teams in history as far as defense.

[LostCause]

Which year 93 or 94? I could've swore I heard that the 94 Knicks were one of the best teams in history as far as defense.


They actually were for both years
https://i.ibb.co/4WB9j3P/MSUBUmJ.png

The image has the years wrong though. It's 93 and 94 instead of 94 and 95

Outside the 5 teams listed there, the only other 4 were Bill Russell's Celtics (Some of whom posted -10)

[Axe]

They actually were for both years
https://i.ibb.co/4WB9j3P/MSUBUmJ.png

The image has the years wrong though. It's 93 and 94 instead of 94 and 95

Outside the 5 teams listed there, the only other 4 were Bill Russell's Celtics (Some of whom posted -10)
Pat riley did an excellent job on enhancing his players in that aspect.

[Gimmedarock]

I’m not an expert on the team but from what I’ve seen, they didn’t play real D. They just were physical. Best thing to happen to the NBA is getting rid of that mess. Europe was way ahead of us in that. That Knicks ball is just ugly.

[Roundball_Rock]

I’m not an expert on the team but from what I’ve seen, they didn’t play real D. They just were physical. Best thing to happen to the NBA is getting rid of that mess. Europe was way ahead of us in that. That Knicks ball is just ugly.

They did it out of necessity: they lacked the talent to win cleanly. I agree with you, though. I don't understand why that kind of "play" by the Knicks and Pistons is glorified today. That is not basketall.

[LeCroix]

I’m not an expert on the team but from what I’ve seen, they didn’t play real D. They just were physical. Best thing to happen to the NBA is getting rid of that mess. Europe was way ahead of us in that. That Knicks ball is just ugly.

Head lock stiff arm 90s defense

[ImKobe]

No it wasn't. That Suns series was much tougher & closer & the Suns were much better than the Knicks.

[HoopsNY]

They were a legit #2 away but that is the problem. Pippen, Stockton, Penny were exceptions to the rule (and Penny didn't last). With the Knicks' dominant defense if they had a decent offense they could have swing a lot of those losses their way.

Not sure about this since they were 12th in Ortg in 1991-92. They took the Bulls to 7 games and still lost. X-Man gave them almost 19 pts on 50% shooting in that series.

[ArbitraryWater]

NBA was a bit of a joke in the 90s

Only when the full-strength Magic existed and Hakeem/Clyde Rockets, was their talent similar to the Bulls

[ImKobe]

NBA was a bit of a joke in the 90s

Only when the full-strength Magic existed and Hakeem/Clyde Rockets, was their talent similar to the Bulls

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/1993.html

[Roundball_Rock]

The Rockets were down to 48-34 and got swept in the second round in 96'. They had a rebound the next year when they got Barkley but 96' was the last elite Hakeem year.

The Suns are overrated IMO. They never got past the second round outside of that one year. Is that a "great team"?

Also look at these examples. The Bulls won 55 without Jordan. The Suns won 56 with Barkley, Rockets won 58 with Hakeem. Are these equal teams? Barkley missed some time that season and they went 8-9.

[LostCause]

92 Suns won 53 games and made the 2nd round of the playoffs. They replaced Hornacek with Barkley in 93, won 62 games and made the Finals

[RogueBorg]

I’m not an expert on the team but from what I’ve seen, they didn’t play real D. They just were physical. Best thing to happen to the NBA is getting rid of that mess. Europe was way ahead of us in that. That Knicks ball is just ugly.

They played D, in fact they were fantastic at it.

They were number 1 in DRtg at 100.33, number 2 were the Rockets at 105.67.
The league average for FG% was 47.3%. The Knicks were first allowing 42.6%.

They were great defensively.

[ArbitraryWater]

There were a few 60+ win teams in the 90's which mostly compare to 55-win teams of the last few years, but the '93 Suns were indeed terrific.

However we never got to see the finals play out to its full potential, once Majerle's 3-pointer was called a 2 in game 6.

That point was obviously absolutely vital, and there is almost no chance Phoenix would have given Chicago a look at a 3 or an uncontested one at least, knowing they could afford a 2.

Again, any ringz talk regarding individuals is circumstantial and for simple minded people needing obvious, easy clues...

what happened and how it happened is far more interesting.

[Roundball_Rock]

Not sure about this since they were 12th in Ortg in 1991-92. They took the Bulls to 7 games and still lost. X-Man gave them almost 19 pts on 50% shooting in that series.

Knicks' offensive rank (92'-97'): 12th, 22nd, 16th, 16th, 21st, 25th

12th was an outlier and they ran into an all-time great team. Having X as your #2 option is exactly the problem. When they needed buckets in Game 7, where was X?

People keep talking about X's series but this literally is the only thing he is remembered for. X wasn't doing that consistently. He was 14/6/2 for the season as a whole in 92', for instance (and posted the same regular season line in Boston in 93'--although his playoff numbers came back to Earth).


There were a few 60+ win teams in the 90's which mostly compare to 55-win teams of the last few years, but the '93 Suns were indeed terrific.


90's had record win inflation because of expansion. Suns were good but a lot of those teams exist in any era. The 2005-2010 Nash/Amare era Suns did even better for longer and they aren't talked about nearly as the 1993 Suns are these days.

[ImKobe]

The Rockets were down to 48-34 and got swept in the second round in 96'. They had a rebound the next year when they got Barkley but 96' was the last elite Hakeem year.

The Suns are overrated IMO. They never got past the second round outside of that one year. Is that a "great team"?

Also look at these examples. The Bulls won 55 without Jordan. The Suns won 56 with Barkley, Rockets won 58 with Hakeem. Are these equal teams? Barkley missed some time that season and they went 8-9.

Rockets had injuries. Drexler missed 30 games that season, Hakeem and others missed some as well.

That 55 is overrated, look at their SRS & SOS numbers, their offense went from 1st/2nd to average without him (despite adding Kukoc & Kerr) and they were a .500 team by '95.

Suns made the WCF multiple times. They got swept by the Lakers in the 1989 WCF but upset the Showtime Lakers and made the WCF by beating them in 5 games in 1990, when Kevin Johnson and Tom Chambers were their two best players. They won 55 games but got upset by the Jazz in the first round in '91, won 53 games and lost to Portland in the WCSF in '92. They won 62 games when Kevin Johnson missed half the season and had 7 guys averaging double figures with one of the greatest offenses in league history in '93. Barkley and Kevin Johnson both missed 15+ games in '94, they played at a ~60 win pace with Chuck that season. They won 59 games in '95 when Kevin Johnson missed 35 games with Barkley missing 14 as well. Lost to the Rockets in 7 in B2B years, obviously choked a 3 - 1 lead in '95.

Portland made multiple Finals with Drexler and won 59, 63 & 57 games and made the Finals/Conference Finals from 1990-92.

Jazz were the most consistent 50+win RS team prior to the Spurs dynasty.

Suns clearly had more talent than the Bulls when they played eachother, I don't know how this is even an argument. Jordan averaged 41 ppg yet the two teams ended up scoring the same amount of points for the series, and none of those games were blowouts.

[HoopsNY]

The Rockets were down to 48-34 and got swept in the second round in 96'. They had a rebound the next year when they got Barkley but 96' was the last elite Hakeem year.

The Suns are overrated IMO. They never got past the second round outside of that one year. Is that a "great team"?

Also look at these examples. The Bulls won 55 without Jordan. The Suns won 56 with Barkley, Rockets won 58 with Hakeem. Are these equal teams? Barkley missed some time that season and they went 8-9.

That's really just the nature of how team win totals fluctuate. The Bulls won 67 games in 1992 and then won 57 the next year. Golden State won 73 games without KD and only won 67 with him. Toronto won 59 games without Kawhi and 58 with him. The Lakers won 67 games in 2000 and 56 the following year.

This entire argument is odd as it's too heavily focused on one year. There is also a lot to be said about team dynamics, how well players play together, locker room drama, off the court issues, and other reasons why team W-L records change year to year.

Were the Warriors a better team without KD? They won MORE games and LOST in the finals the year before they got him, and won an equal amount of games in 2014-15. Miami won 66 games and then 54 the following year. There are a multitude of factors that go into this.

[ArbitraryWater]

Rockets had injuries. Drexler missed 30 games that season, Hakeem and others missed some as well.

That 55 is overrated, look at their SRS & SOS numbers, their offense went from 1st/2nd to average without him (despite adding Kukoc & Kerr) and they were a .500 team by '95.


55 is underrated if anything.

slow start and went 2-2 lost 4 gms sitting starters

they were better than that.

Stop talking shit about SRS when Pippen missed 10 gsm to start, in which they went 4-6. You never tell a full story. Always leave facts out.

They were 51-21 with Pippen, which is 58-win pace.


90's had record win inflation because of expansion. Suns were good but a lot of those teams exist in any era. The 2005-2010 Nash/Amare era Suns did even better for longer and they aren't talked about nearly as the 1993 Suns are these days.

obviously agreed.

However the 05-07 NBA wasnt deep either. Nash/Amare just arent as good as Chuck/KJ, because of Chuck.

[Roundball_Rock]

That 55 is overrated, look at their SRS & SOS

Their SRS was deflated by Pippen missing 10 games and going 4-6. Grant also missed 12 games. When everyone was healthy their SRS was that of a 55 win pace.

People always bring up their SRS in 94' but never in 95'. The reason? They had the #2 SRS in the East before MJ came back (3.8). This was minus both MJ and Grant/Rodman. Indiana was 3.4, Knicks 2.8 for the season for perspective.


Suns made the WCF multiple times

Not the Barkley Suns. The 1990 team had no resemblance to the 1993 team.


Portland made multiple Finals with Drexler and won 59, 63 & 57 games and made the Finals/Conference Finals from 1990-92

They lost both finals. What happened after 92'? 51 wins and a first round loss, 47 wins and a first round loss and then they trade Drexler in 95'. (They continued the pattern of 44-49 wins and a first round loss until 99').


Jazz were the most consistent 50+win RS team prior to the Spurs dynasty.

True, and it is no coincidence they were the other team with 2 HOF players for the entire run.

They did get a boost due to expansion, though. Look at their early 90's win totals and their later win totals.


Suns clearly had more talent than the Bulls when they played each
other

The team that won 55 without their best player was worse than the team that won 56 with its best player? Talent is not quantifiable. Results on the court are.


obviously agreed.

However the 05-07 NBA wasnt deep either. Nash/Amare just arent as good as Chuck/KJ, because of Chuck.

Agreed. Nash/Amare had consistency, though, that Barkley/Johnson did not.

[ImKobe]

55 is underrated if anything.

slow start and went 2-2 lost 4 gms sitting starters

they were better than that.

Stop talking shit about SRS when Pippen missed 10 gsm to start, in which they went 4-6. You never tell a full story. Always leave facts out.

They were 51-21 with Pippen, which is 58-win pace.


It's overrated. That Bulls' team wasn't as good as their record indicated. They were 11th in SRS and had the 6th easiest schedule in the league. They didn't have a clear #1 scoring option who could carry the offense on a consistent basis. Horace Grant and B.J Armstrong were both arguably better than Pippen in that Knicks series. Pippen didn't have that kind of scoring ability.

[ArbitraryWater]

It's overrated. That Bulls' team wasn't as good as their record indicated. They were 11th in SRS and had the 6th easiest schedule in the league. They didn't have a clear #1 scoring option who could carry the offense on a consistent basis. Horace Grant and B.J Armstrong were both arguably better than Pippen in that Knicks series. Pippen didn't have that kind of scoring ability.

Are you retarded? What did we just tell you?

Pippen missed 10 games in which their SRS was by far the worst

They were a 58-win team with Pippen

[Roundball_Rock]

It's overrated. That Bulls' team wasn't as good as their record indicated. They were 11th in SRS

They had the second best SRS in the East in 95' without Jordan and Grant/Rodman, behind Orlando and ahead of New York, Indiana. So SRS matters in 94' but not in 95' because it doesn't suit your agenda?


Horace Grant and B.J Armstrong were both arguably better than Pippen in that Knicks series

You say the same BS on your KG account. :oldlol:

To the earlier point someone made about win totals fluctuating, what we see are 90's teams advertised by their peaks (except Chicago, which as you can see is defined by its worst season). Let's look at win totals the entire run during the MJ years when these teams were contenders.

Phoenix (1993-1996): 62, 56, 59, 41
New York (1992-1997): 51, 60, 57, 55, 47, 57
Indiana (1994-1998): 47, 52, 52, 39, 58
Cleveland (1989-1994): 57, 42, 33*, 57, 54, 47

Not exactly the picture that is painted by cherry picking their peak year.

*Mark Price missed 66 games and they became a 30 win pace team without him, not a 55 win team.

[97 bulls]

Are you retarded? What did we just tell you?

Pippen missed 10 games in which their SRS was by far the worst

They were a 58-win team with Pippen

Lol

[HoopsNY]

Knicks' offensive rank (92'-97'): 12th, 22nd, 16th, 16th, 21st, 25th

But just a moment ago, you said this.


With the Knicks' dominant defense if they had a decent offense they could have swing a lot of those losses their way.

So in 1992 when they did in fact have a decent offense, they still lost.


12th was an outlier and they ran into an all-time great team. Having X as your #2 option is exactly the problem. When they needed buckets in Game 7, where was X?

The same could be said about the rest of the starters including Ewing. Starks came off the bench and gave 18 pts, 5 assists, and 4 stls. They still lost.

But how many examples do people need before the competition aren't really "outliers"? The Suns, Blazers, Pistons, Magic, Lakers, Sonics, '97 Jazz, and these Knicks teams aren't good enough? And what's the defining number anyway?

[HoopsNY]

To the earlier point someone made about win totals fluctuating, what we see are 90's teams advertised by their peaks

Usually, when a team makes the finals one time, that happens to be their peak season. Though I'd say that wasn't the case in the example of the Blazers, Lakers, Pistons, '98 Jazz, or the 1996 Magic. You have examples on both sides, so the argument is a wash.

[Roundball_Rock]

Usually, when a team makes the finals one time, that happens to be their peak season. Though I'd say that wasn't the case in the example of the Blazers, Lakers, Pistons, '98 Jazz, or the 1996 Magic. You have examples on both sides, so the argument is a wash.

Here is the problem:


Phoenix (1993-1996): 62, 56, 59, 41
New York (1992-1997): 51, 60, 57, 55, 47, 57
Indiana (1994-1998): 47, 52, 52, 39, 58
Cleveland (1989-1994): 57, 42, 33*, 57, 54, 47
Chicago (1990-1998): 55, 61, 67, 57, 55, 47, 72, 69, 62

So Chicago was remarkably consistent while no one else was. Utah is an example of consistency in the West--but at a much lower level. Same with Portland, except for a shorter period. It is notable the two best comparators were in the other conference.

How about comparing 80's teams?

Sixers (1980-1986): 59, 62, 58, 65, 52, 58, 54
Celtics (1980-1988): 61, 62, 63, 56, 62, 63, 67, 59, 57
Lakers (1980-1991): 60, 54, 57, 58, 54, 62, 62, 65, 62, 57, 63, 58
Pistons (1987-1991): 52, 54, 63, 59, 50

That is what parity at the top looks like, that is what real competition looks like. The Bulls were the lone great team facing a revolving door of flashes in the pan.


So in 1992 when they did in fact have a decent offense, they still lost.

I meant for the run. It is hard to win a championship. Just because a team didn't in a given year doesn't mean they never would under that scenario. If they had the 12th best offense in 94' they would have won a ring.

[ImKobe]

They had the second best SRS in the East in 95' without Jordan and Grant/Rodman, behind Orlando and ahead of New York, Indiana. So SRS matters in 94' but not in 95' because it doesn't suit your agenda?



You say the same BS on your KG account. :oldlol:

To the earlier point someone made about win totals fluctuating, what we see are 90's teams advertised by their peaks (except Chicago, which as you can see is defined by its worst season). Let's look at win totals the entire run during the MJ years when these teams were contenders.

Phoenix (1993-1996): 62, 56, 59, 41
New York (1992-1997): 51, 60, 57, 55, 47, 57
Indiana (1994-1998): 47, 52, 52, 39, 58
Cleveland (1989-1994): 57, 42, 33*, 57, 54, 47

Not exactly the picture that is painted by cherry picking their peak year.

*Mark Price missed 66 games and they became a 30 win pace team without him, not a 55 win team.

Jordan played in '95, the 13 - 4 stretch they had with him to close out the season probably did a lot for their SRS, they were barely above .500 before he returned.

I don't post on any other accounts on this forum.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan played in '95, the 13 - 4 stretch they had with him to close out the season probably did a lot for their SRS, they were barely above .500 before he returned.

That is why the SRS I referenced was without Jordan. They were at 3.8 before him and finished at 4.3.

We always hear about the "13-4" but never that they were 11-6 after the all-star break. They lost almost all their big men: Grant, Cartwright, Scott Williams and there was an adjustment period. Their SRS rose because they were starting to win games comfortably before MJ came back. The trend continued, at a higher level, with MJ.

The myth we are told is they were plodding along and the savior MJ came back but their results had turned the corner and their SRS suggested they had bad luck in the first half of the season.

It is entirely possible the Bulls sucked but if they did that means MJ's comp must have sucked since the Bulls down their best and third best player>the Knicks and Pacers in SRS.

[3ball]

.
MJ won the 93' ring with less production from Pippen than 14' Wade:



Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


Pippen's true shooting was 45.8% in the Finals

[Roundball_Rock]

1995 Post-ASG (before MJ's return)

NY 12-5
IND 12-5
CHI 11-6
ORL 11-7
CHA 8-7
CLE 8-8

That is the context of "13-4" that is erased.

[RRR3]

.
MJ won the 93' ring with less production from Pippen than 14' Wade:



Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


Pippen's true shooting was 45.8% in the Finals
I like how you leave out the fact that LeBron won a ring with Wade averaging 24.5 points per 100 possessions on a 49.8 TS% in 2013. Yep, worse than Pippen in 1993. LeJesus :bowdown:

[Turbo Slayer]

I like how you leave out the fact that LeBron won a ring with Wade averaging 24.5 points per 100 possessions on a 49.8 TS% in 2013. Yep, worse than Pippen in 1993. LeJesus :bowdown: Dude look at OTC (off the court) lounge. People are making fun of you especially Shogun in the thread title, "RRR3 Is A Transgender". Just warning you. A friendly heads up.

[Roundball_Rock]

I like how you leave out the fact that LeBron won a ring with Wade averaging 24.5 points per 100 possessions on a 49.8 TS% in 2013. Yep, worse than Pippen in 1993. LeJesus :bowdown:

Damn, so LeBron must be GOAT then! :bowdown:


MJ won the 93' ring with less production from Pippen than 14' Wade

Fact check:

Playoffs

Pippen 20/7/6 on 47%. Was called the MVP of the ECF by Sports Illustrated.
Wade 18/4/3 on on 50%

Finals

Pippen 21/9/8 on 44%
Wade 15/4/3 on 44%

Game scores: Pippen 15.6, Wade 7.9

How did Kevin Johnson do BTW, since MJ stans have been hyping him lately? 17/3/7 on 42%, got benched at one point in the series. 10.2 game score.

[3ball]

I like how you leave out the fact that LeBron won a ring with Wade averaging 24.5 points per 100 possessions on a 49.8 TS% in 2013. Yep, worse than Pippen in 1993. LeJesus :bowdown:

Lebron never won a Finals without prime Pippen stats from the sidekick, and Wade showed up with prime Pippen stats when it was needed in the 13' Finals

Otoh, Wade wasn't needed to win the East... A star sidekick wasn't needed to win the weak conference

did dwight have a sidekick? How about AI or Kidd or Lebron in 07'? That conference doesn't require a sidekick or strong cast to win, so it's apples and oranges to compare stars (yet Wade and kyrie's still destroy Pippen's)

[Roundball_Rock]

Fact check:

Wade 16/5/5 in the 13' playoffs
Bosh 12/7/2 in the 13' playoffs

Wade 15/5/4 in the ECF (7 game series)
Bosh 11/4/1 in the ECF

[AlternativeAcc.]

Lebron never won a Finals without prime Pippen stats from the sidekick, and Wade showed up with prime Pippen stats when it was needed in the 13' Finals

Otoh, Wade wasn't needed to win the East... A star sidekick wasn't needed to win the weak conference

did dwight have a sidekick? How about AI or Kidd or Lebron in 07'? That conference doesn't require a sidekick or strong cast to win, so it's apples and oranges to compare stars (yet Wade and kyrie's still destroy Pippen's)

LeBron never faced 9ppg Hornacek as 2nd option

[Roundball_Rock]

LeBron never faced 9ppg Hornacek as 2nd option

Hey, it was 10.7! :lol Stockton was the 9.7 PPG guy.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Hey, it was 10.7! :lol Stockton was the 9.7 PPG guy.

Shit, my bad!

My boy Jeff was a monster! :lol

[3ball]

Hey, it was 10.7! :lol Stockton was the 9.7 PPG guy.

^^^ No, that was Pippen in the 89' ECF... 9.7 on 40%

:applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

Shit, my bad!

My boy Jeff was a monster! :lol

Hornacek has a min-doc on guarding MJ in the finals (he admits he couldn't do anything against MJ, playing into the C-Span anchor meme). I'm serious! :roll:

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/5/11/21252546/guarding-jordan-is-just-about-failing-to-guard-michael-jordan

[AlternativeAcc.]

Hornacek has a min-doc on guarding MJ in the finals (he admits he couldn't do anything against MJ, playing into the C-Span anchor meme). I'm serious! :roll:

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/5/11/21252546/guarding-jordan-is-just-about-failing-to-guard-michael-jordan

:roll:


Jordan's toughest finals competition, ladies and gents!

:roll::lol

[Roundball_Rock]

:roll:


Jordan's toughest finals competition, ladies and gents!

:roll::lol

The Jazz's second and third leading scorers in the 98' playoffs combined for 22 PPG. :lol

[3ball]

Shit, my bad!

My boy Jeff was a monster! :lol

Peak Hornacek was an all-star PG and a better scorer and playmaker then Pippen ever was... And obviously a better shooter and clutch player

[Roundball_Rock]

Peak Hornacek was an all-star PG and a better scorer and playmaker then Pippen ever was... And obviously a better shooter and clutch player

:roll::roll::roll:

Hornacek was a 1x all-star. Meanwhile Pippen? #21 all-time according to the latest rankings (from ESPN).

21. Scottie Pippen

Michael Jordan's greatness made many think of Pippen as an all-time great sidekick. But Pippen is a legend in his own right as one of the most versatile players the NBA has ever seen. With his 6-8 height and endless wingspan, Pippen made the All-Defensive first team eight times while stifling some of the NBA's greatest stars. When Jordan left to play baseball in 1993-94, Pippen averaged 22 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists and 2.9 steals while leading the Bulls to a 55-win season before losing to the Knicks in the East semifinals. Pippen earned six rings and made the playoffs 16 straight times, a streak that didn't end until his final season.
-- Youngmisuk

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29105681/ranking-top-74-nba-players-all-nos-40-11

[LeCroix]

Hornacek has a min-doc on guarding MJ in the finals (he admits he couldn't do anything against MJ, playing into the C-Span anchor meme). I'm serious! :roll:

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/5/11/21252546/guarding-jordan-is-just-about-failing-to-guard-michael-jordan
MJ a beta for having this dude as his best adversary in the Finals :lol

[RRR3]

The most points per 100 possessions Hornacek ever scored was 25.8 on 55.3 TS% in 1992-93. He also did 25.6 per 100 on 59.2 TS% the year before. Pippen did 30.0 on 54.4 TS% in 1993-94. And 29.3 on 55.9 TS% the next year. Hornacek wasn't a definitively better scorer. And we know Pippen was way better all-around.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ a beta for having this dude as his best adversary in the Finals :lol

:lol


The most points per 100 possessions Hornacek ever scored was 25.8 on 55.3 TS% in 1992-93. He also did 25.6 per 100 on 59.2 TS% the year before. Pippen did 30.0 on 54.4 TS% in 1993-94. And 29.3 on 55.9 TS% the next year. Hornacek wasn't a definitively better scorer.


Prime Pippen (91'-98') 20/7/6 with 2 steals and a block on 48%. GOAT defense.
Prime Hornacek (90'-96') 17/4/5 with 2 steals, 0 blocks on 50%.

All-NBA teams: Pippen 7, Hornacek 0
All-NBA 1st teams: Pippen 3, Hornacek 0
MVP finishes: Pippen 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th. Hornacek none.
All-star teams: Pippen 7, Hornacek 1

I could go on and on. MJ stans hate Pippen so much because he makes them insecure about MJ for some reason that they have jumped the shark and compare him to guys like Hornacek and Mark Jackson now.

[3ball]

The most points per 100 possessions Hornacek ever scored was 25.8 on 55.3 TS% in 1992-93. He also did 25.6 per 100 on 59.2 TS% the year before. Pippen did 30.0 on 54.4 TS% in 1993-94. And 29.3 on 55.9 TS% the next year. Hornacek wasn't a definitively better scorer. And we know Pippen was way better all-around.

Hornacek led his team in scoring but he had to share with KJ

94' Pip didn't have to share with anyone

The fact that Hornacek led a team in scoring that had peak KJ shows he was a better scorer than Pip, who could never command the ball over kj

[Roundball_Rock]

What he is referring to is 92', when Hornacek scored 20.1 and Johnson 19.7. Hornacek was the SG, Johnson the PG. Johnson had to focus on facilitating like Pippen did. Johnson in his prime was a 20 PPG scorer (89'-97')--same as Pippen was. Johnson's peak was 22.5, Pippen's 22.0. Johnson had more assists but wasn't a GOAT level defender like Pippen. There is a reason why one of them was a 7x all-star and the other a 3x all-star (and Pippen thoroughly outplayed him n the 93' finals).

What these MJ stans do is pick some relatively obscure figure from the 90's and try to make them out to be giants to younger people who didn't watch back then. So the implication always is Kevin Johnson! Kevin Johnson! like he was Curry or Lillard but there were no such players back then. Point guards or point forwards weren't scoring more than 20-22 PPG because their job was to pass first, score second. Only in the 2010's did we see a return to high scoring PG's. Part of that is due to the prominence of threes but also because it is easier to score today. If you put Pippen or Kevin Johnson in today's league they are scoring 25 PPG, not 22.

[3ball]

What he is referring to is 92', when Hornacek scored 20.1 and Johnson 19.7. Hornacek was the SG, Johnson the PG. Johnson had to focus on facilitating like Pippen did. Johnson in his prime was a 20 PPG scorer (89'-97')--same as Pippen was. Johnson's peak was 22.5, Pippen's 22.0. Johnson had more assists but wasn't a GOAT level defender like Pippen. There is a reason why one of them was a 7x all-star and the other a 3x all-star (and Pippen thoroughly outplayed him n the 93' finals).

What these MJ stans do is pick some relatively obscure figure from the 90's and try to make them out to be giants to younger people who didn't watch back then. So the implication always is Kevin Johnson! Kevin Johnson! like he was Curry or Lillard but there were no such players back then. Point guards or point forwards weren't scoring more than 20-22 PPG because their job was to pass first, score second. Only in the 2010's did we see a return to high scoring PG's. Part of that is due to the prominence of threes but also because it is easier to score today. If you put Pippen or Kevin Johnson in today's league they are scoring 25 PPG, not 22.

.
Did Pippen ever lead his team to multiple 55+ win seasons and beat Magic's #1 seed to make the conference finals?

Because KJ did.

KJ could carry teams better because he scored and assisted better than Pippen - he led Pippen in usage (finishing plays) and assist percentage (finding the finisher), so he controlled games better...

Here's their other stats:



RS

KJ.... 17.9.. 3.3.. 9.1.. 58.5 ts.. 118 ortg.. 20.7 PER.. 0.178 ws/48
Pip... 16.2.. 6.4.. 5.2.. 53.6 ts.. 108 ortg.. 18.6 PER.. 0.146 ws/48


PO

KJ.... 19.3.. 3.3.. 8.9.. 55.7 ts.. 113 ortg.. 19.1 PER.. 0.117 ws/48
Pip... 17.5.. 7.6.. 5.0.. 52.4 ts.. 108 ortg.. 18.4 PER.. 0.140 ws/48


So KJ scores and assists far more than Pippen - it's not even close

Ultimately - KJ, Payton and Stockton were all better #2 options... And Penny/Dumars were better in the ECF... X-man better in 92' ECSF... Willis better in 93' 1st Rd... Smits, Howard, T Hardaway, and Payton better in various series in the 2nd three-peat

Tbh, your post informed me that a lot of guys outplayed Pip like Smits, Howard and T Hardaway

[Roundball_Rock]

KJ choked hard when he got to his one finals (while watching Pippen go 21/9/8). It is laughable the two are even being compared. KJ was good but a borderline top 10 guy at his best, not a superstar.

[3ball]

KJ choked hard when he got to his one finals (while watching Pippen go 21/9/8). It is laughable the two are even being compared. KJ was good but a borderline top 10 guy at his best, not a superstar.
Everyone knows KJ was hurt and yes, the Suns probably win if KJ isn't hurt

This is just observable fact - both the bulls and suns averaged 106.7 ppg and and 113.0 ortg, so any increase by KJ puts the Suns over the top (or decrease by MJ)

Pippen's true shooting was a horrific 45.8% in this series, so his weak play almost caused a 7th game.. Pippen was trash.. I'm just remembering when the superior Kemp dunked on him soooo hard in 96' Finals lol.. one of those 'poke' dunks.. put the inferior pip in his place

[Roundball_Rock]

KJ choked. He was balling earlier in the playoffs...but as the stage got big he shriveled. He was 16/2/7 in the WCF (Payton was 12/4/4 in the same series...) and his issues carried over to the NBA finals. He had big playoff lines in his career, but in the first and second rounds.


It's more likely that Johnson wanted as much time as he could get to erase the nightmares of the first two games of the series, during which he repeatedly tried to slash into a lane clogged with Bulls, a strategy that not only resulted in charging fouls, blocked shots and turnovers but also made him look like a kid determined to keep swinging at the neighborhood bully no matter how much blood was lowing from the kid's nose


Johnson's confidence had already been renewed, in part by dozens of faxed messages of support he had received from Sun fans, many of whom were angered that much of the home crowd had booed Johnson late in Game 2 as he was being removed—mercifully—by Westphal.

Anyone remember Pippen ever getting booed at home? :lol


"If you're going to boo Kevin Johnson or give him a hard time when he's struggling, please don't come to the game," Barkley said.


Johnson's performance on Sunday undoubtedly brought him increased respect from the Bulls, particularly Jordan, who. despite scoring 44 points, made only six of 20 shots in the fourth quarter and the three overtime periods

Threw this in just for 3ball. :oldlol:

https://vault.si.com/vault/1993/06/21/a-happy-turn-to-a-horror-story

There is a ton more of this. Just Google "Kevin Johnson 1993 NBA Finals." These guys will cherry pick and amplify the worst of Pippen's long record but will act like every other star of the 90's walked on water.

[3ball]

KJ choked. He was balling earlier in the playoffs...but as the stage got big he shriveled. He was 16/2/7 in the WCF (Payton was 12/4/4 in the same series...) and his issues carried over to the NBA finals. He had big playoff lines in his career, but in the first and second rounds.





Anyone remember Pippen ever getting booed at home? :lol





Threw this in just for 3ball. :oldlol:

https://vault.si.com/vault/1993/06/21/a-happy-turn-to-a-horror-story

There is a ton more of this. Just Google "Kevin Johnson 1993 NBA Finals." These guys will cherry pick and amplify the worst of Pippen's long record but will act like every other star of the 90's walked on water.

Pippen never took a team to the ecf

Pippen never beat a 1 seeded Magic Johnson team while getting 22/12

Pippen never averaged a double double, let alone 20/10

Pippen didn't have to score or assist nearly as much as KJ

Pippen was inferior

^^^ those are the facts, now carry on with your non-case and delusional revision of history

[LeCroix]

.
Did Pippen ever lead his team to multiple 55+ win seasons and beat Magic's #1 seed to make the conference finals?

Because KJ did.

KJ could carry teams better because he scored and assisted better than Pippen - he led Pippen in usage (finishing plays) and assist percentage (finding the finisher), so he controlled games better...

Here's their other stats:



RS

KJ.... 17.9.. 3.3.. 9.1.. 58.5 ts.. 118 ortg.. 20.7 PER.. 0.178 ws/48
Pip... 16.2.. 6.4.. 5.2.. 53.6 ts.. 108 ortg.. 18.6 PER.. 0.146 ws/48


PO

KJ.... 19.3.. 3.3.. 8.9.. 55.7 ts.. 113 ortg.. 19.1 PER.. 0.117 ws/48
Pip... 17.5.. 7.6.. 5.0.. 52.4 ts.. 108 ortg.. 18.4 PER.. 0.140 ws/48


So KJ scores and assists far more than Pippen - it's not even close

Ultimately - KJ, Payton and Stockton were all better #2 options... And Penny/Dumars were better in the ECF... X-man better in 92' ECSF... Willis better in 93' 1st Rd... Smits, Howard, T Hardaway, and Payton better in various series in the 2nd three-peat

Tbh, your post informed me that a lot of guys outplayed Pip like Smits, Howard and T Hardaway

You should be thankful that the Bulls don't listen to a idiot like yourself :lol or else id they did Michael Jordan would be stuck at 1 for 9 if you had Kevin Johnson instead of Scottie Pippen

[3ball]

You should be thankful that the Bulls don't listen to a idiot like yourself :lol or else id they did Michael Jordan would be stuck at 1 for 9 if you had Kevin Johnson instead of Scottie Pippen

Prime KJ was rountinely averaged 20/10 while winning 55+ and beat Magic's 1 seed Lakers in 1990 - Pippen can't do any of those things (average double-double, multiple 55 win seasons, beat Magic's juggernaut)

So MJ three-peats from 88-90' with KJ's dominating 20/10 over Pippen's 9 on 40% in the 89' ECF

Then he probably takes a break and 3-peats again with Kemp as sidekick from 94-96'

[3ball]

KJ choked. He was balling earlier in the playoffs...but as the stage got big he shriveled. He was 16/2/7 in the WCF (Payton was 12/4/4 in the same series...) and his issues carried over to the NBA finals. He had big playoff lines in his career, but in the first and second rounds.




So KJ dominates the goat PG (magic) but struggles against Paxson and Payton?

No... He was obviously hurt.






Anyone remember Pippen ever getting booed at home? :lol




Pippen was booed but not that much because people knew he was fragile and the Pistons were already destroying him

But his frequent series of 15 on 33% was more reason to boo than juggernauts like KJ ever had






Threw this in just for 3ball. :oldlol:

https://vault.si.com/vault/1993/06/21/a-happy-turn-to-a-horror-story

There is a ton more of this. Just Google "Kevin Johnson 1993 NBA Finals." These guys will cherry pick and amplify the worst of Pippen's long record but will act like every other star of the 90's walked on water.






The Bulls "supporting cast" was outscored in many Finals actually. Looking at double figure scorers outside of the top player for each team:


1993 Finals

Bulls (minus Jordan's 41 ppg)
Pippen: 21.2 ppg
Armstrong: 13.5 ppg
Grant: 11.2 ppg

Suns (minus Barkley's 25)
K. Johnson: 17.2 ppg
Majerle: 17.2 ppg
Dumas: 15.8 ppg

Advantage: Suns


Title teams with lowest scoring supporting casts for the overall playoffs

Post-1954 (Shot Clock Era)


10. 1994 Rockets - 68.3 PPG
9. 2006 Heat - 67.8 PPG
8. 1993 Bulls - 67.3 PPG
7. 2012 Heat - 67.0 PPG
6. 1996 Bulls - 66.7 PPG
5. 1992 Bulls - 65.9 PPG
4. 2004 Pistons - 65.6 PPG
3. 1999 Spurs - 65.2 PPG
2. 1997 Bulls - 61.5 PPG
1. 1998 Bulls - 60.8 PPG


^^^ the bulls' lowest-scoring casts required MJ to have the goat volume/efficiency combination - he's the only efficient, high volume player in history.

And every ECF and Finals opponent had a better defense during the 1st three-peat except the Suns' #9 defense



91 Finals (minus Jordan's 31.2 ppg)
Pippen: 20.8 ppg
Grant: 14.6 ppg
Paxson: 13.4 ppg

Lakers (minus Magic)
Divac: 18.2 ppg
Worthy: 19.3 ppg
Perkins: 16.6 ppg

Advantage: Lakers


92 Finals (minus Jordan's 35.8 ppg)
Pippen: 20.8 ppg
Paxson: 10.3 ppg
Grant: 9.2 ppg
Cartwright: 6.3 ppg

Blazers (minus Drexler)
Porter: 16.2 ppg
Kersey: 14.8 ppg
Robinson: 10.3 ppg
Ainge: 10 ppg

Advantage: Blazers (though its a bit closer here)


1996 Finals (minus Jordan's 27.3 ppg)
Pippen: 15.7 ppg
Kukoc: 13 ppg
Longley: 11.7 ppg

Sonics (minus Kemp)
Payton: 18 ppg
Schrempf: 16.3 ppg
Hawkins: 13.3 ppg


Advantage: Sonics

1997 Finals (minus Jordan's 32.3 ppg)
Pippen: 20 ppg
Kukoc: 8 ppg
Bison Dele: 6.8 ppg

Jazz (minus Malone)
Stockton: 15 ppg
Hornacek: 12 ppg
Russell: 11.3 ppg


Advantage: Jazz

1998 Finals (minus Jordan's 33.5 ppg)
Pippen: 15.7 ppg
Kukoc: 15.2 ppg
Harper: 5.3 ppg

Jazz (minus Malone)
Hornacek: 10.7 ppg
Stockton: 9.7 ppg
Russell: 8.8 ppg


Advantage: Bulls, largely on Kukoc having a good series but keep in mind Pippen basically was crippled by game 6 with a back injury.

[Roundball_Rock]

You should be thankful that the Bulls don't listen to a idiot like yourself or else id they did Michael Jordan would be stuck at 1 for 9 if you had Kevin Johnson instead of Scottie Pippen

This guy acts like Kevin Johnson was Magic Johnson. :lol It is laughable how much they gas every 90's star just to diminish Pippen because they are insecure that MJ won nothing without Pippen.


Prime KJ was rountinely averaged 20/10 while winning 55+ and beat Magic's 1 seed Lakers in 1990 - Pippen can't do any of those things (average double-double, multiple 55 win seasons

Pippen was on 9 55+ win teams and his Portland teams were around that win pace when he was healthy in 02' and 03' as well (don't feel like looking it up to see if it actually was 54 or 56).

Pippen was capable of winning 6 rings by showing up in the NBA finals and WCF, which Kevin Johnson failed to do in 93'.

He is omitting several materials facts. First, Johnson was not the #1 option on the 90' Suns team. Prime Tom Chambers was (27 PPG). In the playoffs Chambers, Johnson, and Hornacek all averaged about the same (not the carry job he wants you to think). What he also isn't telling you is assists were inflated in that era. When KJ was averaging 10, Stockton was averaging 15. Moreover, what he isn't telling you is that is the only team Phoenix got to the WCF before Barkley. He is making it seem like they were perennial contenders when 90' was a fluke run. Yeah they beat LA but that was the first year they did not have KAJ in the middle...


He was obviously hurt.

He was playing hurt all season--just like Pippen was. No excuses--Johnson was great through the first two rounds but when the pressure ratcheted up he folded.

[3ball]

You should be thankful that the Bulls don't listen to a idiot like yourself :lol or else id they did Michael Jordan would be stuck at 1 for 9 if you had Kevin Johnson instead of Scottie Pippen

No, kj destroyed Magic in 1990 (22/12) while Pippen wet bed against Pistons (16/5) - so the bulls 3-peat with KJ from 89-91' and then MJ retires in 92'... Returns in 94' and 3-peats with kemp

[LeCroix]

No, kj destroyed Magic in 1990 (22/12) while Pippen wet bed against Pistons (16/5) - so the bulls 3-peat with KJ from 89-91' and then MJ retires in 92'... Returns in 94' and 3-peats with kemp

3ball is the new jerry krause

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/2011/news/features/scott_howard_cooper/11/18/jerry-krause/jerry-krause-111911.jpg

[Roundball_Rock]

3ball is the new jerry krause

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/2011/news/features/scott_howard_cooper/11/18/jerry-krause/jerry-krause-111911.jpg

:lol

1993 Finals: Majerle 17.0, Pippen 15.6, Grant 12.8, Dumas 12.7, BJ 11.2

Johnson doesn't even show up because he was the 8th best player in the series, choking so bad BJ Armstrong outplayed him. :lol

[3ball]

:lol

1993 Finals: Majerle 17.0, Pippen 15.6, Grant 12.8, Dumas 12.7, BJ 11.2

Johnson doesn't even show up because he was the 8th best player in the series, choking so bad BJ Armstrong outplayed him. :lol

^^^ Thank you for the data showing Majerle outplayed Pippen...

:oldlol:

So Pippen was outplayed by Dan Majerle, Juwan Howard, Larry Johnson, Penny, X-man, Dominique, T Hardaway, Stockton, Kemp, Harper, Dumars - anyone else? Lol... Wow he sucked

Btw, Pippen shot 45.9 true shooting in the 93' Finals and his 93' Playoffs under-produced Wade's 14' Playoffs (both guys pursuing 3-peat)

[RRR3]

^^^ Thank you for the data showing Majerle outplayed Pippen...

:oldlol:

So Pippen was outplayed by Dan Majerle, Juwan Howard, Larry Johnson, Penny, X-man, Dominique, T Hardaway, Stockton, Kemp, Harper, Dumars - anyone else? Lol... Wow he sucked

Btw, Pippen shot 45.9 true shooting in the 93' Finals and his 93' Playoffs under-produced Wade's 14' Playoffs (both guys pursuing 3-peat)
If Pippen was outplayed by Majerle based on game score, then he outplayed McDaniel (and probably a bunch of those guys but XM is the only one I remember for sure from Roundball's thread) based on game score. Can't have it both ways.

[3ball]

If Pippen was outplayed by Majerle based on game score, then he outplayed McDaniel (and probably a bunch of those guys but XM is the only one I remember for sure from Roundball's thread) based on game score. Can't have it both ways.

Pippen was outplayed a lot regardless of how you look at it - we don't have these discussions about Kyrie because he averaged 26 on 46% in full playoffs alongside Bron - he never played bad

[Roundball_Rock]

If Pippen was outplayed by Majerle based on game score, then he outplayed McDaniel (and probably a bunch of those guys but XM is the only one I remember for sure from Roundball's thread) based on game score. Can't have it both ways.

Yeah and using his own logic Pippen>>>Wade and Pippen>>>Irving as sidekicks to MJ/LeBron respectively. :oldlol:

He is so disingenuous he will harp on Pippen being behind Majerle but not say a word about Johnson being behind Majerle, Pippen, Dumas, Grant and Armstrong. The great KJ outplayed by BJ Armstrong in a NBA finals. :roll:

He is lying because he is desperate. For example, Stockton didn't even outplay Kukoc let alone Pippen in 98'. Stockton--the best sidekick MJ faced. :oldlol: MJ stans can't make a case based on real facts so they just go around lying.

[RRR3]

Yeah and using his own logic Pippen>>>Wade and Pippen>>>Irving as sidekicks to MJ/LeBron respectively. :oldlol:

He is so disingenuous he will harp on Pippen being behind Majerle but not say a word about Johnson being behind Majerle, Pippen, Dumas, Grant and Armstrong. The great KJ outplayed by BJ Armstrong in a NBA finals. :roll:

He is lying because he is desperate. For example, Stockton didn't even outplay Kukoc let alone Pippen in 98'. Stockton--the best sidekick MJ faced. :oldlol: MJ stans can't make a case based on real facts so they just go around lying.
He's a pathological liar, we've established this.

[LeCroix]

He's a pathological liar, we've established this.

his name is 3ball krause now :lol

[RRR3]

his name is 3ball krause now :lol
Shut up you hater, 3ball dunked on Zach Randolph 4 times in a row!

[LeCroix]

Shut up you hater, 3ball dunked on Zach Randolph 4 times in a row!

and Raja Bell :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

He's a pathological liar, we've established this.

True :lol

If Pippen sucked what does that say about his era? That the opposing second options were guys like John Starks and Terry Porter.

[LeCroix]

True :lol

If Pippen sucked what does that say about his era? That the opposing second options were guys like John Starks and Terry Porter.

good point

if pippen 'sucked' and was 3rd in mvp votes in 1994 does that mean the entire league sucked? i guess so

90s = weakest era in basketball

80s was the dynasty era
magic and kareem vs bird and mchale

90s was the watered era
plumbers, auto mechanics

00s was the dynasty era
spurs or lakers won like every chip (00, 01, 02, 03, 05, 07, 09, 10)

10s was the skilled era
lebron snags more fmvp than every player in nba history but one (12, 13, 16) with goat chip in 2016

[Roundball_Rock]

Exactly. So Pippen sucked and was a MVP candidate and all-NBA 1st team player back then. Meanwhile Kyrie is a borderline top 10 player at best in this era and has not even gotten a single 5th place MVP vote in his entire career.

[LeCroix]

Exactly. So Pippen sucked and was a MVP candidate and all-NBA 1st team player back then. Meanwhile Kyrie is a borderline top 10 player at best in this era and has not even gotten a single 5th place MVP vote in his entire career.

interesting...

i wonder what 3ball krause has to say about thiat

[Roundball_Rock]

I wonder what he will say about Kyrie in this thread http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480143-What-Kind-of-Player-Would-Kyrie-Irving-Be-in-the-90-s&p=13996985#post13996985