Who was the better Playoff and Finals Performer

[3ball]

...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What's up sad boy? :lol

[bullettooth]

Jason Terry

[LAmbruh]

no pip no chip

[warriorfan]

Jason Terry

:roll:

[LeCroix]

dumb question

93 Pip in Finals averaged 21/9/8/2/1

Redo your poll thread doofus

[LeCroix]

no pip no chip

No pip, no chip

Proof to the pudding: 1-9 results

[3ball]

dumb question

93 Pip in Finals averaged 21/9/8/2/1

Redo your poll thread doofus

If MJ had a sidekick getting 28 ppg and hitting big shots, that player would be considered far better than Pippen and a top 5 player in the league

Kyrie's heroics next to lebron are severely underrated and better than anything Pippen ever did

[Mamba4Life]

3ball who is the better Finals performer:

Player A: 34/12/10 on 54%

Player B: 34/4/2 on 43%

[LeCroix]

3ball who is the better Finals performer:

Player A: 34/12/10 on 54%

Player B: 34/4/2 on 43%

Wow...what a bomb

The bomb goes boom

[3ball]

3ball who is the better Finals performer:

Player A: 34/12/10 on 54%

Player B: 34/4/2 on 43%

Post the 2nd option stats and series drtg and pace

Never mind.. I'll do it

Lebron's 2nd option - 29 ppg... Series Drtg - 115... Series pace - 100... Kerr didn't double bron
Jordan's 2nd option - 15 ppg... Series Drtg - 105... Series pace - 82..... Constant doubles

[Mamba4Life]

Post the 2nd option stats and series drtg and pace

Never mind.. I'll do it

Lebron's 2nd option - 29 ppg... Series Drtg - 115... Series pace - 100... Kerr didn't double bron
Jordan's 2nd option - 15 ppg... Series Drtg - 105... Series pace - 82..... Constant doubles


So why did LeBron lose in 5 games with 34/12/10 on 54% and a 29ppg second option, but Jordan won in 6 with 34/4/2 on 43% and a 15ppg 2nd option?

Maybe LeBrons comp was far tougher??

[red1]

voted pippen.

[3ball]

So why did LeBron lose in 5 games with 34/12/10 on 54% and a 29ppg second option, but Jordan won in 6 with 34/4/2 on 43% and a 15ppg 2nd option?

Maybe LeBrons comp was far tougher??
Your numbers are meaningless because Bron's 34 was wiped out and exceeded by his defensive assignment, who got 36

Otoh, MJ always scored 10-25 more than his assignment (Magic, Drexler, etc), so his stats meant something (no empty stats like bron)

Furthermore, lebron's your-turn-my-turn approach with the sidekick is a weak team - they only won 51 games..

the your-turn-my-turn approach doesn't wear down the opponent defensively, so the opponent has more capacity to go off offensively - bron-ball simply doesn't apply effective pressure compared to the ball movement he faces at the championship level

It's funny because his teams collapse in the championship while weaker defensive teams do better against the Warriors or Spurs because they have more effective offensive pressure to wear the Spurs/Warriors down thus blunting their offensive attack.. but bron-ball (your-turn-my-turn, no ball movement) let's the Spurs/Warriors rest on defense so they can go off on offense

[bullettooth]

no pip no chip

If you hate MJ now, imagine if he teamed up with Isiah Thomas and Larry Bird and still lost in the finals... yikes.

[SouBeachTalents]

If you hate MJ now, imagine if he teamed up with Isiah Thomas and Larry Bird and still lost in the finals... yikes.
Comparing Isiah to Chris Bosh is just an insult to Isiah

[Mamba4Life]

If you hate MJ now, imagine if he teamed up with Isiah Thomas and Larry Bird and still lost in the finals... yikes.

More like if Jordan teamed up with ‘92 Bird after he retired and broke his back and Horace Grant

...

He’d go 0/0 in the Finals

[warriorfan]

If you hate MJ now, imagine if he teamed up with Isiah Thomas and Larry Bird and still lost in the finals... yikes.

Good post.

https://i.postimg.cc/k4XtJvrQ/3-E06-CEB8-3233-4192-96-F3-56-CD26-B17845.jpg

[Docs Orders]

no pip no chip :applause:

[3ball]

dumb question

93 Pip in Finals averaged 21/9/8/2/1

Redo your poll thread doofus

Pippen was horrible in 93':


Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

17' Kyrie...... 35.5 pts.. 7.2 ast.. 57.3 ts.. 116 ortg.. 21.0 PER.. 0.147 ws/48.. 4.0
obpm
14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


People were mad at 14' Wade because he was reduced to prime Pippen stats

At what point do you start admitting that Pippen has become overrated and considered better than he was at the time?

[Stanley Kobrick]

buffalo wings. ranch dip.

[3ball]

Pippen was horrible in 93':


Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

17' Kyrie...... 35.5 pts.. 7.2 ast.. 57.3 ts.. 116 ortg.. 21.0 PER.. 0.147 ws/48.. 4.0
obpm
14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


People were mad at 14' Wade because he was reduced to prime Pippen stats

At what point do you start admitting that Pippen has become overrated and considered better than he was at the time?




Anyone?

You're just going to keep ignoring the obvious numbers?

[Mamba4Life]

Anyone?

You're just going to keep ignoring the obvious numbers?


Now do LeBron and Jordan’s per 100 possessions in the playoffs and then add up their points rebounds and assists

[3ball]

Now do LeBron and Jordan’s per 100 possessions in the playoffs and then add up their points rebounds and assists

Points and assists per 100 Possessions - PLAYOFFS:

Jordan... 43.3 pts + 7.4 ast = 50.7 total
Lebron... 36.3 pts + 9.1 ast = 45.1 total

Jordan has the highest pts + ast ever, aka goat... (and more orebs)

[MrFonzworth]

I voted Pippen. He got 6 rings for a reason.

[3ball]

I voted Pippen. He got 6 rings for a reason.

What area did he relieve Jordan in?

Scoring?.. no because mj and had the goat scoring gap between 1st and 2nd option

Assists?.. no because MJ got equal assists

Defense?.. no because MJ had to get more dpoy votes every year

Enforcer?.. no because MJ had to save Pip from X-man and was the enforcer


So again, what area did Pippen relieve MJ? He's literally the worst 2nd option MJ could've had - he didn't do shit

[MrFonzworth]

What area did he relieve Jordan in?

Scoring?.. no because mj and had the goat scoring gap between 1st and 2nd option

Assists?.. no because MJ got equal assists

Defense?.. no because MJ had to get more dpoy votes every year

Enforcer?.. no because MJ had to save Pip from X-man and was the enforcer


So again, what area did Pippen relieve MJ? He's literally the worst 2nd option MJ could've had - he didn't do shit

Who's Jordan? Thought we were talking Kyrie and Pip.

[3ball]

Who's Jordan? Thought we were talking Kyrie and Pip.

At least kyrie relieved lebron in scoring and usage - he scored equally with lebron with equal usage

And kyrie would take contested jumpers down the stretch because lebron avoids contested jumpers

[3ball]

Who's Jordan? Thought we were talking Kyrie and Pip.


Show me where Kyrie had a bunch of really horrible showings like Pippen did:



1988 RD 1 vs. CLE......10.6 on 47.1%
1988 ECSF vs. DET...... 9.4 on 45.8%

1989 RD 1 vs. CLE......15.0 on 39.8%
1989 ECF vs. DET........ 9.7 on 40.2%

1990 ECF vs DET........16.6 on 42.8%

1992 ECSF vs NYN.....16.0 on 40.2%

1993 RD 1 vs. ATL..... 15.0 on 42.2%

1995 ECSF vs ORL.....19.0 on 40.9%

1996 ECSF vs NYN.... 15.6 on 33.0%
1996 FINAL vs SEA... 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 RD 1 vs WAS.....16.7 on 38.3%
1997 ECF vs. MIA..... 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECF vs IND....... 16.6 on 39.2%
1998 FINAL vs UTA... 15.7 on 41.0%

1999 RD 1 vs LAL...... 18.3 on 32.9%


Pippen's horrible play cost MJ rings in 88', 89', 90', and 95'... And nearly 92 ECSF and 98' ECF, among others

[LeCroix]

So why did LeBron lose in 5 games with 34/12/10 on 54% and a 29ppg second option, but Jordan won in 6 with 34/4/2 on 43% and a 15ppg 2nd option?

Maybe LeBrons comp was far tougher??

the BOMB goes BOOM

[Axe]

Lbj ringless without jj

[Round Mound]

We all ready know that Pippen wasn't a great scorer, clutch scorer or great shooter :confusedshrug: but in EVERYTHING ELSE such as Playmaking, Passing, Ballhandling, Dribbling, Slashing, Going Coast to Coast, Dunking and All Around DEFENSE he was TOP NOTCH!

Watch the games instead of relying on stats,

MJ is the GOAT btw....:confusedshrug:

[AussieSteve]

...

@3ball..

If player A and player B have the same scoring ability but...

- Player A has a team mate who is one of the greatest passers and play makers in history
- Player B has a team mate who takes almost 30 shots a game

Who would you expect to score more?

[ImKobe]

Irving did more in one Playoff run than Pippen in his whole career tbh. Pippen never bailed a team out.

[Uncle Drew]

No Pip, no chip.

[LeCroix]

Irving did more in one Playoff run than Pippen in his whole career tbh. Pippen never bailed a team out.

???? Pippen never bailed anyone out? So you saying Scottie Pippen didnt bail out a 1 for 10 playoff failure in MJ?

MJ before Pip = 1-9 (zero 1st round wins)
LBJ before Kyrie = 2 FMVPs

Uh yeahhhh so who bailed who out again? :lol

[StrongLurk]

Pippen is better than Kyrie without a doubt.

[Kblaze8855]

We all ready know that Pippen wasn't a great scorer, clutch scorer or great shooter :confusedshrug: but in EVERYTHING ELSE such as Playmaking, Passing, Ballhandling, Dribbling, Slashing, Going Coast to Coast, Dunking and All Around DEFENSE he was TOP NOTCH!

Watch the games instead of relying on stats,

MJ is the GOAT btw....:confusedshrug:

None of this even happened:


https://youtu.be/bRFKhpMKX0E


If it can’t be accounted for in the 35 seconds of action points and field goal percentage can track apparently it doesn’t impact who wins a game. I guess Jordan, Pippen, Grant and so on terrorizing people on defense was for nothing.

[3ball]

None of this even happened:


https://youtu.be/bRFKhpMKX0E


If it can’t be accounted for in the 35 seconds of action points and field goal percentage can track apparently it doesn’t impact who wins a game. I guess Jordan, Pippen, Grant and so on terrorizing people on defense was for nothing.

^^^ Knicks had the #1 defense in the league and the Bulls only #7, so the Knicks were making great defensive plays like that more than the Bulls - they were more capable of plays like that by virtue of being a goat defense that was much better than the Bulls'

Otoh, offense was where the Knicks couldn't match the Bulls, due to MJ - their cast outscored the Bulls cast significantly and they had a history of outplaying Pippen (X-man killed Pip in 92')

Ultimately, only the bulls needed a high volume, high efficiency scorer to win, or maybe it's more accurate to say that only the Bulls HAD such a scorer, so only they could win that way.

MJ is the only efficient, high volume player ever... Other guys like Kobe shoots a lot worse against that defense, while lebron wouldn't take the required volume and would foolishly pass to lesser players instead.. he would also hog the ball-time and assists, so the team has weaker ball movement/less total assists and get less from Pippen

Finally, defense isn't a skill position, like football - you don't have to be good at basketball to be a great defender

[tpols]

Otoh, offense was where the Knicks couldn't match the Bulls, due to MJ

False.

Ewing had a higher ORTG than MJ at 25+ ppg in both their '92 and '93 series.

The reason the Knicks couldnt match the bulls offensively is because Scottie Pippen just totally shit on john starks as a 2nd option.

swap em... and the knicks are winning some series against the bulls.

[3ball]

False.

Ewing had a higher ORTG than MJ at 25+ ppg in both their '92 and '93 series.

The reason the Knicks couldnt match the bulls offensively is because Scottie Pippen just totally shit on john starks as a 2nd option.
Ewing had a smaller load because he had the higher-scoring cast in 90', 92', 93', and 96' (the years he lost to Michael, including being the favorite in 89' and 93')

He had several guys that routinely outplay Pippen and could produce like Pippen

That's why his cast outscored Jordan's every year, which required MJ to undertake the bigger load

[3ball]

Ewing had a smaller load because he had the higher-scoring cast in 90', 92', 93', and 96' (the years he lost to Michael, including being the favorite in 89' and 93')

He had several guys that routinely outplay Pippen and could produce like Pippen

That's why his cast outscored Jordan's every year, which required MJ to undertake the bigger load

^^^ Again tpols, we see that it comes down to volume and the goat volume required of Mike, and how only he could shoot well at that volume.. that's why he's the goat and won so many rings with the weakest-scoring casts/weakest offensive help ever

[Vino24]

Pippen easily

[tpols]

If anything, Ewing had a bigger load.

He did far more as a a defensive anchor to an all time great defensive team than MJ did. He was a true rim protector no guard could match the impact of defensively.

And offensively, he had no valve. (thus more pressure) His 2nd option was a guy they picked up in the parking lot of a shop rite. Starks makes scottie pippen look like kobe.

[3ball]

If anything, Ewing had a bigger load.

He did far more as a a defensive anchor to an all time great defensive team than MJ did. He was a true rim protector no guard could match the impact of defensively.

And offensively, he had no valve. (thus more pressure) His 2nd option was a guy they picked up in the parking lot of a shop rite. Starks makes scottie pippen look like kobe.


Ewing had the better-producing #2 option in 89' (Newman and Mark Jackson) and also 1992 (X-man)

So stop misdirecting the argument to a Pippen/Starks comparison, when we know that Ewing had the better 2nd option several years, and the higher-scoring cast EVERY year.. His higher-scoring cast allowed him to take lower volume, which is the key that unlocks MJ's goatness, goat load, and uniqueness from all other players in history

Btw, Starks was a 20-point, all-defender like Pippen and Pippen's production doesn't beat him by much... It's sad that Pippen barely beats Starks considering MJ was always making Starks look bad and deflating his rep (despite playing the best defense ever on MJ for games 1-3 of 93' ecf).. it's actually an argument in my favor that Pippen barely beats Starks.

[Roundball_Rock]

False.

Ewing had a higher ORTG than MJ at 25+ ppg in both their '92 and '93 series.

The reason the Knicks couldnt match the bulls offensively is because Scottie Pippen just totally shit on john starks as a 2nd option.

swap em... and the knicks are winning some series against the bulls.

Ewing had no help on offense. The games are on YouTube. Anyone can watch and it is pretty clear one guy had strong help and the other had nothing. The Knicks played elite defense but when they needed a bucket they had only one guy who could do that.

[LeCroix]

If anything, Ewing had a bigger load.

He did far more as a a defensive anchor to an all time great defensive team than MJ did. He was a true rim protector no guard could match the impact of defensively.

And offensively, he had no valve. (thus more pressure) His 2nd option was a guy they picked up in the parking lot of a shop rite. Starks makes scottie pippen look like kobe.

Exactly. Kobe wins against Knicks in place of MJ easily.

[LeCroix]

Ewing had the better-producing #2 option in 89' (Newman and Mark Jackson) and also 1992 (X-man)

So stop misdirecting the argument to a Pippen/Starks comparison, when we know that Ewing had the better 2nd option several years, and the higher-scoring cast EVERY year.. His higher-scoring cast allowed him to take lower volume, which is the key that unlocks MJ's goatness, goat load, and uniqueness from all other players in history

Btw, Starks was a 20-point, all-defender like Pippen and Pippen's production doesn't beat him by much... It's sad that Pippen barely beats Starks considering MJ was always making Starks look bad and deflating his rep (despite playing the best defense ever on MJ for games 1-3 of 93' ecf).. it's actually an argument in my favor that Pippen barely beats Starks.

Would you rather have
Pippen or Starks?
Pippen or McDaniel?
MJ or Ewing?

[tpols]

Ewing had no help on offense. The games are on YouTube. Anyone can watch and it is pretty clear one guy had strong help and the other had nothing. The Knicks played elite defense but when they needed a bucket they had only one guy who could do that.

John Starks in '93 was by far the Knicks second best scorer / playmaker and he had 28 TO's in 6 games. Double any other Knick.

He had more fouls than any player on the court throughout the series. Worst ORTG and DRTG of any player on either team.

This dude was so comically bad lol... if you gave Ewing anybody... literally anybody halfway decent outside him, they wouldve won.

Like Josh Howard or Marquis Daniels mightve gotten them over the hump.

[Stanley Kobrick]

no king no ring

no pip no chip

[3ball]

If anything, Ewing had a bigger load.

He did far more as a a defensive anchor to an all time great defensive team than MJ did. He was a true rim protector no guard could match the impact of defensively.

And offensively, he had no valve. (thus more pressure) His 2nd option was a guy they picked up in the parking lot of a shop rite. Starks makes scottie pippen look like kobe.

Ewing had the better-producing #2 option in 89' (Newman and Mark Jackson) and also 1992 (X-man)

So stop misdirecting the argument to a Pippen/Starks comparison, when we know that Ewing had the better 2nd option several years, and the higher-scoring cast EVERY year.. His higher-scoring cast allowed him to take lower volume, which is the key that unlocks MJ's goatness, goat load, and uniqueness from all other players in history

[LAmbruh]

Landslide vic for pip


We win again

[3ball]

John Starks in '93 was by far the Knicks second best scorer / playmaker and he had 28 TO's in 6 games. Double any other Knick.

He had more fouls than any player on the court throughout the series. Worst ORTG and DRTG of any player on either team.

This dude was so comically bad lol... if you gave Ewing anybody... literally anybody halfway decent outside him, they wouldve won.

Like Josh Howard or Marquis Daniels mightve gotten them over the hump.

Ewing had the better-producing #2 option in 89' (Newman and Mark Jackson) and also 1992 (X-man)

So we know that Ewing had the better 2nd option several years, and the higher-scoring cast EVERY year.. His higher-scoring cast allowed him to take lower volume, which is the key that unlocks MJ's goatness, goat load, and uniqueness from all other players in history

[Kblaze8855]

Defense isn’t a skill and doesn’t make you good at basketball so nothing to see here. Just an entirely separate time Pippen blocked consecutive shots to end a game


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GoldenJampackedBlesbok-size_restricted.gif

[LeCroix]

Would you rather have
Pippen or Starks?
Pippen or McDaniel?
MJ or Ewing?

*taps mic* is this thing on

[3ball]

Defense isn’t a skill and doesn’t make you good at basketball so nothing to see here. Just an entirely separate time Pippen blocked consecutive shots to end a game


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GoldenJampackedBlesbok-size_restricted.gif

Anyone can cherry-pick a highlight, but what was the Bulls' defensive rank and what was the Knicks?

[tpols]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AgonizingCarefreeIrishsetter-size_restricted.gif

:roll:

[Kblaze8855]

Irrelevant play here. Just a steal to secure the nba title with like 4 seconds left:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/InfantileFriendlyAmericanpainthorse-size_restricted.gif



Not accounted for. Doesn’t factor in.

[3ball]

*taps mic* is this thing on

Ill take X-man over Pippen in the 92' ECF

That series went 7 because Pippen sucked

Bulls might sweep the Knicks if you switched the 2 in that series

[3ball]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AgonizingCarefreeIrishsetter-size_restricted.gif

:roll:

Knicks had the #1 defense much better than Chicago

Stop trolling

[Kblaze8855]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HeartfeltHarshIlladopsis-size_restricted.gif


What was that? I couldn’t hear you over Scottie Pippen defending an entire team at once.

[AlternativeAcc.]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/heartfeltharshilladopsis-size_restricted.gif


what was that? I couldn’t hear you over scottie pippen defending an entire team at once.

goat

[Kblaze8855]

Or Perhaps it was Pip thundering down the court for a block he was 50 feet behind the play on that made all the noise.....


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/TartEnchantedCommongonolek-size_restricted.gif

[3ball]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HeartfeltHarshIlladopsis-size_restricted.gif


What was that? I couldn’t hear you over Scottie Pippen defending an entire team at once.

Cherry-picking is always a bad argument

I win if that's all you have

[Mamba4Life]

Cherry-picking is always a bad argument

I win if that's all you have

It’s simple, Pippens defense and Kyrie’s offense cancel each other out


So it comes down to Pippens offense vs Kyrie’s defense

And Pippens scoring was many times better than Kyrie’s defense, like a factor of 10-1 times better

So Pippen > Kyrie

[3ball]

.
Pippen has a lot more of these:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-10-2020/clvWbm.gif


than he has defensive highlights.. but let's see who runs out of highlights first

Defense isn't a skill position or part of the game, similar to football

[Kblaze8855]

That isn’t cherry picking. Pippen guarded the entire other team all the time. Like when he would take guys like Ewing and Webber one on one while also primarily defending the perimeter:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ImpishElementaryConure-size_restricted.gif




https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FalseSpiffyAsiaticwildass-size_restricted.gif




That’s fairly common. Cherry picking would be me posting about when MJ lost the ball going for a game winner in the playoffs so Scottie bailed him out by recovering and dunking on the entire state of Maryland with the foul....

[Kblaze8855]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ThatYoungAttwatersprairiechicken-size_restricted.gif



^
That’s cherry picking because it didn’t happen all the time. The rest did.

[3ball]

It’s simple, Pippens defense and Kyrie’s offense cancel each other out


So it comes down to Pippens offense vs Kyrie’s defense

And Pippens scoring was many times better than Kyrie’s defense, like a factor of 10-1 times better

So Pippen > Kyrie

Averaging 15 on 35% is the worst offense ever for a 2nd option - that's worse than kyrie's defense, who locked up the MVP and played on the #1 defensive team in 2018

And Pippen averaged 14 points less than Kyrie (29 to 15) - that hurts the bulls more - Pippen isn't making that up on defense

[Manny98]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HeartfeltHarshIlladopsis-size_restricted.gif


What was that? I couldn’t hear you over Scottie Pippen defending an entire team at once.
Damn :bowdown::bowdown:

[Kblaze8855]

.
Pippen has a lot more of these:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-10-2020/clvWbm.gif


than he has defensive highlights.. but let's see who runs out of highlights first

Defense isn't a skill position or part of the game, similar to football



Nah you don’t wanna go one on one with the great one in a misleading highlight battle. I’m a bulls fan who has been hoarding basketball footage online for 20 years. Pippen defensive highlights are light work.

What I wanna see is the Pippen offensive highlights vs Kyries defensive highlights. That’s the battle the streets are clamoring for. Let’s go weakness on weakness and see who runs out first.

In fact I’ll put a hand behind my back.

Scottie offensive highlights....no dunks allowed.....ONLY plays vs the eastern conference.....vs every defensive play of Kyries career.

You start.

[scuzzy]

https://media.giphy.com/media/tyqcJoNjNv0Fq/giphy.gif

[Roundball_Rock]

John Starks in '93 was by far the Knicks second best scorer / playmaker and he had 28 TO's in 6 games. Double any other Knick.

He had more fouls than any player on the court throughout the series. Worst ORTG and DRTG of any player on either team.

This dude was so comically bad lol... if you gave Ewing anybody... literally anybody halfway decent outside him, they wouldve won.

:oldlol: good points.

He was a very dirty player too. Ultimately he is best remembered for an all-time choke with the infamous "2 for 18" game in Game 7 of the NBA finals.

He was a solid defender but that isn't what he was cast as. He would have been find as the #3 or #4 on a 90's team.


Ewing had the better-producing #2 option in 89' (Newman and Mark Jackson) and also 1992 (X-man)

89'! For reference people, Mark Jackson was 17/5/9 and Newman 16/3/2. McDaniel (Xaiver, known as "X Man"), was 14/6/2.

[Kblaze8855]

Well right now I’m about to have Mother’s Day dinner but....I’m sure you will need a while to sort through the hundreds of Kyrie defensive standout performances just as I would for pippen offensive ones. I’m sure it’s easy. Everyone has clips of someone missing a shot they contested. I bet Steph gives you 18 in the finals alone. Be a stretch to call them highlights but I’m sure you’ll bend reality to suit.

[AlternativeAcc.]

https://media.giphy.com/media/tyqcJoNjNv0Fq/giphy.gif
Let the 3ball ducking/excuses begin

:applause:

[Mamba4Life]

Averaging 15 on 35% is the worst offense ever for a 2nd option - that's worse than kyrie's defense, who locked up the MVP and played on the #1 defensive team in 2018

And Pippen averaged 14 points less than Kyrie (29 to 15) - that hurts the bulls more - Pippen isn't making that up on defense

What was better, Kyrie's peak 24ppg with no defense, or Pippen's peak 22ppg with GOAT defense?

[Kblaze8855]

Just name my stipulation for later. Left hand only? No dunks? No transition? No plays that involve an assist to or from Jordan? Pick a stipulation. Do that. I might have to work a little.

You get every play that ever happened when Kyries team didn’t have the ball on any level of basketball. Summer and lockout leagues included. Plus team USA. Make me dig in my bag.

[Roundball_Rock]

Defense isn’t a skill and doesn’t make you good at basketball so nothing to see here. Just an entirely separate time Pippen blocked consecutive shots to end a game


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GoldenJampackedBlesbok-size_restricted.gif

"Pippen again stops Smith!"--Marv

That is one of my favorite games, the OT Christmas Day game.


Anyone can cherry-pick a highlight, but what was the Bulls' defensive rank and what was the Knicks?

Bulls were #2 without MJ or Grant/Rodman. Knicks were #1 with their full core. You thought we wouldn't know who was right behind the Knicks?


Irrelevant play here. Just a steal to secure the nba title with like 4 seconds left:

Hey, if it is not scoring it doesn't count as clutch! :hammerhead:


Ill take X-man over Pippen in the 92' ECF

That series went 7 because Pippen sucked

Pippen had 17/11/11 in Game 7. What did "X" do with the money on the line?



What was that? I couldn’t hear you over Scottie Pippen defending an entire team at once.


:bowdown:



What I wanna see is the Pippen offensive highlights vs Kyries defensive highlights. That’s the battle the streets are clamoring for. Let’s go weakness on weakness and see who runs out first.


:rockon:

3ball, are you going to duck this? :lol

[LeCroix]

just look at you, is this what you wanted ????

https://i.ibb.co/RYVnFLc/who-knows-this-day.png

[LeCroix]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HeartfeltHarshIlladopsis-size_restricted.gif


What was that? I couldn’t hear you over Scottie Pippen defending an entire team at once.

best perimeter defensive all time

[Roundball_Rock]

Where is Kyrie on this chart? I see 96' Pippen right behind 06' Kobe.

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Jordan-v-GOAT-on-off-results-91-93-50g.png


just look at you, is this what you wanted ????

How many of this 6 are his alts too? :oldlol:

[LeCroix]

Where is Kyrie on this chart? I see 96' Pippen right behind 06' Kobe.

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Jordan-v-GOAT-on-off-results-91-93-50g.png



How many of this 6 are his alts too? :oldlol:

wake me up when kyrie gets 3rd mvp voting like 94 pipppen

[3ball]

Nah you don’t wanna go one on one with the great one in a misleading highlight battle. I’m a bulls fan who has been hoarding basketball footage online for 20 years. Pippen defensive highlights are light work.

What I wanna see is the Pippen offensive highlights vs Kyries defensive highlights. That’s the battle the streets are clamoring for. Let’s go weakness on weakness and see who runs out first.

In fact I’ll put a hand behind my back.

Scottie offensive highlights....no dunks allowed.....ONLY plays vs the eastern conference.....vs every defensive play of Kyries career.

You start.

I have beautiful women that require my attention so I can't collect thousands of Pippen defensive highlights or whatever you said you do

So let's save time in this "weakness vs weakness" comparison and cut to the chase...

Pippen had many series with 15-16 ppg on 33-40%, aka the worst-possible offense... what are Kyrie's "worst-possible" defensive series to match Pippen's many worst offensive series?... I don't see any - when did Kyrie let his man go off for a goat series, the way Pippen's offense was often woat?

[Kblaze8855]

You won’t start so I guess you want me to:


Down 2 final game of the series playing the jazz for the third time...only no MJ to take the shot this time.


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LastingUntimelyHorsechestnutleafminer-size_restricted.gif






Series.

Your go.

[3ball]

Where is Kyrie on this chart? I see 96' Pippen right behind 06' Kobe.

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Jordan-v-GOAT-on-off-results-91-93-50g.png



How many of this 6 are his alts too? :oldlol:

^^^ fake graph because we don't have on-off before 1997

The backpicks analysis mixes real info with fake info but makes some good points, primarily that MJ is goat because no one has more high volume, high efficiency seasons

[Kblaze8855]

Really? The too many beautiful women defense?

But not too many to make just shy of 900 topics about Lebron James then vigorously defend your point in every single one of them?

These hoes are very picky in what they allow you to allocate your time to. My bad though. I didn’t realize we were in the presence of the original playa


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AlarmingActualDorado-size_restricted.gif



“From the Himalayas!”

Respect king.

[3ball]

Btw the offensive highlight vs defensive highlights is dumb because defensive highlights are less frequent, Pippen included

Dumb way to compare

Try again

The reality is that defensive shortcomings from the top players are easily made up by teammates, while offensive shortcomings aren't...

[3ball]

Really? The too many beautiful women defense?

But not too many to make just shy of 900 topics about Lebron James then vigorously defend your point in every single one of them?

These hoes are very picky in what they allow you to allocate your time to. My bad though. I didn’t realize we were in the presence of the original playa


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AlarmingActualDorado-size_restricted.gif



“From the Himalayas!”

Respect king.

Says the guy with thousands of Pippen defensive highlights on tap lol.. good luck bud

[Roundball_Rock]

wake me up when kyrie gets 3rd mvp voting like 94 pipppen

Trivia question: how many MVP votes has Kyrie accumulated over his career?

Keep in mind each MVP voter has to select 5 players (ranked 1-5 of course).


The backpicks analysis mixes real info with fake info but makes some good points, primarily that MJ is goat

Backpicks has KAJ 1st, LeBron 2nd, MJ 3rd. What they say is MJ had the highest peak.


I have beautiful women that require my attention

Does anyone believe this?


we don't have on-off before 1997


He explained how he got that. Anyway, the 97' data for Pippen (his last healthy prime year) was dominant so it stands to reason peak Pippen was even better.

We do have on-off data for Kyrie. What it shows is from 2016*-2020 Kyrie ranks 7th on average on his teams in net on/off impact (yes, I excluded scrubs who played less than 100 minutes--Kyrie is even lower on paper). What is your explanation for this?

Or for Boston playing better with Rozier or Walker and Brooklyn with Dinwiddie. Kyrie is so awesome but his teams do better without him?

*Kyrie was a net minus in 2016, the one season we hear so much about.

[scuzzy]

:roll:

[3ball]

"Pippen again stops Smith!"--Marv

That is one of my favorite games, the OT Christmas Day game.



Bulls were #2 without MJ or Grant/Rodman. Knicks were #1 with their full core. You thought we wouldn't know who was right behind the Knicks?



Hey, if it is not scoring it doesn't count as clutch! :hammerhead:



Pippen had 17/11/11 in Game 7. What did "X" do with the money on the line?



:bowdown:



:rockon:

3ball, are you going to duck this? :lol

Bulls were the #7 defense in 1993, not #2

MJ's defensive help was usually less than his ECF and Finals opponents during the 1st three-peat because they lacked rim protection or the low post presence that most teams had

And MJ took out X-man in Game 7 by bullying him at midcourt to save Pippen from being eaten by X-man... And Pippen could still only get 17 on probably horrible shooting and MJ doing everything... Oh look, 42 for MJ

[3ball]

Trivia question: how many MVP votes has Kyrie accumulated over his career?

Keep in mind each MVP voter has to select 5 players (ranked 1-5 of course).



Backpicks has KAJ 1st, LeBron 2nd, MJ 3rd. What they say is MJ had the highest peak.



Does anyone believe this?



He explained how he got that. Anyway, the 97' data for Pippen (his last healthy prime year) was dominant so it stands to reason peak Pippen was even better.

We do have on-off data for Kyrie. What it shows is from 2016*-2020 Kyrie ranks 7th on average on his teams in net on/off impact (yes, I excluded scrubs who played less than 100 minutes--Kyrie is even lower on paper). What is your explanation for this?

Or for Boston playing better with Rozier or Walker and Brooklyn with Dinwiddie. Kyrie is so awesome but his teams do better without him?

*Kyrie was a net minus in 2016, the one season we hear so much about.

Kyrie made the playoffs and 2nd Round with his own team, but his best accomplishment was averaging 26 points in the 16' and 17' Playoffs and 28 in the Finals, including the closer over Curry to win in 16', and 40 points in another Finals game.

Now what are Pippen's best accomplishment, aka on-court displays of basketball excellence?.... Go

[Roundball_Rock]

Bulls were the #7 defense in 1993, not #2

You have your Pippen stuffing Smith games confused. The clip KBlaze posted was from the 95' season, the Christmas Day game. The Bulls were #2 in defense that year with MJ playing only 17 games and Rodman/Grant not there at all.


MJ's defensive help

MJ was the defensive "help" during the second three-peat. We always hear about options on offense but never on defense.


And Pippen could still only get 17 on probably horrible shooting

Pippen 17/11/11 on 64%
McDaniel 14/7/0 on 40%


Oh look, 42 for MJ

So you saw the box score but still said Pippen shot poorly?

MJ had 42 but Ewing, the Knicks' #1 option, had only 22 on 19 shots. Pippen had 17 on 11 shots.

For reference, Pippen's game score for the series was 14.9 (Ewing was 15.9), for McDaniel it was 12.2--and this is the career highlight for McDaniel (the only thing people mention about him today) and a poor series for Pippen by his standards. :oldlol:


Kyrie made the playoffs and 2nd Round with his own team,

That team made it to Game 7 of the ECF with Kyrie's backup...unfortunately Kyrie makes the entire team around him worse.

[scuzzy]

You have your Pippen stuffing Smith games confused. The clip KBlaze posted was from the 95' season, the Christmas Day game. The Bulls were #2 in defense that year with MJ playing only 17 games and Rodman/Grant not there at all.



MJ was the defensive "help" during the second three-peat. We always hear about options on offense but never on defense.



Pippen 17/11/11 on 64%
McDaniel 14/7/0 on 40%



So you saw the box score but still said Pippen shot poorly?

MJ had 42 but Ewing, the Knicks' #1 option, had only 22 on 19 shots. Pippen had 17 on 11 shots.

For reference, Pippen's game score for the series was 14.9 (Ewing was 15.9), for McDaniel it was 12.2--and this is the career highlight for McDaniel (the only thing people mention about him today) and a poor series for Pippen by his standards. :oldlol:



That team made it to Game 7 of the ECF with Kyrie's backup...unfortunately Kyrie makes the entire team around him worse.
https://media.giphy.com/media/LMnwLzuzBtkysH4hOX/giphy.gif

[LeCroix]

You have your Pippen stuffing Smith games confused. The clip KBlaze posted was from the 95' season, the Christmas Day game. The Bulls were #2 in defense that year with MJ playing only 17 games and Rodman/Grant not there at all.



MJ was the defensive "help" during the second three-peat. We always hear about options on offense but never on defense.



Pippen 17/11/11 on 64%
McDaniel 14/7/0 on 40%



So you saw the box score but still said Pippen shot poorly?

MJ had 42 but Ewing, the Knicks' #1 option, had only 22 on 19 shots. Pippen had 17 on 11 shots.

For reference, Pippen's game score for the series was 14.9 (Ewing was 15.9), for McDaniel it was 12.2--and this is the career highlight for McDaniel (the only thing people mention about him today) and a poor series for Pippen by his standards. :oldlol:



That team made it to Game 7 of the ECF with Kyrie's backup...unfortunately Kyrie makes the entire team around him worse.


'hello'

'9-1-1'

'id like to report a murder'

[LeCroix]

Where is Kyrie on this chart? I see 96' Pippen right behind 06' Kobe.

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Jordan-v-GOAT-on-off-results-91-93-50g.png



How many of this 6 are his alts too? :oldlol:

I think hoops NY and OrlandoMagic are his alts :lol so really he has like 4 votes

[Roundball_Rock]

I think hoops NY and OrlandoMagic are his alts :lol so really he has like 4 votes

HoopsNYC/LostCause seem to be the same person (look at their shticks). I could see them being 3ball posing as a more "sane" account to further the same agenda. :lol I have not seen much of OrlandoMagic but I highly doubt the person behind the account actually is a Magic fan. :oldlol:

[3ball]

Pippen 17/11/11 on 64%
McDaniel 14/7/0 on 40%


So you saw the box score but still said Pippen shot poorly?

For reference, Pippen's game score for the series was 14.9 (Ewing was 15.9), for McDaniel it was 12.2--and this is the career highlight for McDaniel (the only thing people mention about him today) and a poor series for Pippen by his standards. :oldlol:




1992 ECSF

X-man.... 19/9 on 50%
Pippen... 16/8 on 41%

And this (https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2019/4EMYLq.gif), which took out X-man in game 7 and allowed Pippen to not shit his pants






You have your Pippen stuffing Smith games confused. The clip KBlaze posted was from the 95' season, the Christmas Day game. The Bulls were #2 in defense that year with MJ playing only 17 games and Rodman/Grant not there at all.



MJ was the defensive "help" during the second three-peat. We always hear about options on offense but never on defense.

That team made it to Game 7 of the ECF with Kyrie's backup...unfortunately Kyrie makes the entire team around him worse.



Teams have a finite amount of energy to expend at both ends of the floor.. Increased efforts on one end take away from the other end.. this matters because the bulls had #1 offenses (goat offenses) with MJ - so it's remarkable that they still had top 5 defenses as well.

It's not bullshit - MJ gave teams a 2-way team... It should puzzle you how a team with LESS good defenders, was a better defensive team... It's because their offense sucked and they focused on defense

Keep in mind that the Bulls ranked 4th, 7th, and 4th defensively during the 1st three-peat, and were #6 in 1994 - so their decline from goat modern dynasty to 2nd round loser was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (the same offense that allowed his triangles to achieve bigger margins above league ortg than Shaq/Kobe's triangles... Let that sink in)

[LeCroix]

HoopsNYC/LostCause seem to be the same person (look at their shticks). I could see them being 3ball posing as a more "sane" account to further the same agenda. :lol I have not seen much of OrlandoMagic but I highly doubt the person behind the account actually is a Magic fan. :oldlol:

i think the 3ball idea is to boost up bulls by 'supporting' new york knicks to 'prove' how much mj had to fight through :lol insert hoopsNY :lol

[3ball]

1992 ECSF

X-man.... 19/9 on 50%
Pippen... 16/8 on 41%

And this (https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2019/4EMYLq.gif), which took out X-man in game 7 and allowed Pippen to not shit his pants






Teams have a finite amount of energy to expend at both ends of the floor.. Increased efforts on one end take away from the other end.. this matters because the bulls had #1 offenses (goat offenses) with MJ - so it's remarkable that they still had top 5 defenses as well.

It's not bullshit - MJ gave teams a 2-way team... It should puzzle you how a team with LESS good defenders, was a better defensive team... It's because their offense sucked and they focused on defense

Keep in mind that the Bulls ranked 4th, 7th, and 4th defensively during the 1st three-peat, and were #6 in 1994 - so their decline from goat modern dynasty to 2nd round loser was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (the same offense that allowed his triangles to achieve bigger margins above league ortg than Shaq/Kobe's triangles... Let that sink in)



^^^ Roundball, I hope you got this basketball 101... surely it answered some questions you had, especially that 2nd part

[RRR3]

Really? The too many beautiful women defense?

But not too many to make just shy of 900 topics about Lebron James then vigorously defend your point in every single one of them?

These hoes are very picky in what they allow you to allocate your time to. My bad though. I didn’t realize we were in the presence of the original playa


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AlarmingActualDorado-size_restricted.gif



“From the Himalayas!”

Respect king.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Axe]

I think hoops NY and OrlandoMagic are his alts :lol so really he has like 4 votes
And what happened to your FromDowntown and TheCorporation accounts? Like they are banned forever?

[HoopsNY]

Sorry, I have no 'alt' accounts. And I'm not a Magic fan either. I'm a Knicks fan. Well, grew up one at least. Refuse to support Dolan at this point, but that's another story.

Anyway, that's rich coming from Roundball. Guy is mad that people oppose his ridiculous views, like claiming Kareem > Magic in the Laker years, then accuses you of being an MJ "stan" when you oppose him.

Wanna criticize KAJ for missing the playoffs two consecutive years, "YOU'RE AN MJ STAN!"

Wanna dispute the Knicks being "weak opponents" during the early 90s, "YOU'RE AN MJ STAN!"

Wanna claim Magic was better than Kareem during the Laker years, "YOU'RE AN MJ STAN!" - Roundball

lol

[Roundball_Rock]

i think the 3ball idea is to boost up bulls by 'supporting' new york knicks to 'prove' how much mj had to fight through :lol insert hoopsNY :lol

Good point. Hoops is out there calling a team with John Starks as their #2 a "great team."


1992 ECSF

X-man.... 19/9 on 50%
Pippen... 16/8 on 41%

With the money on the line in Game 7:

Pippen 17/11/11 on 64%
X-Man 14/7/0 on 40%

Not even 1 assist from X?

You also posted fake ECSF numbers. The real ones are:

Pippen 16/8/7 with 2 steals and 1 block on 40%
McDaniel 19/6/2 with 1 steal and 0 blocks on 50%.

Game score: Pippen 14.9, McDaniel 12.2 (Ewing was 15.9, so close to Pippen)

Receipts at https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1992-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-knicks-vs-bulls.html

All this was in the career highlight for McDaniel, the only thing he is remembered for and in a down series (for him) by Pippen. :lol


Guy is mad that people oppose his ridiculous views, like claiming Kareem > Magic in the Laker years

Yet another lie. These MJ stans sure want to falsify your views when they get rattled. This is the 10th or 11th time in recent days alone. :lol

[HoopsNY]

Yet another lie. These MJ stans sure want to falsify your views when they get rattled. This is the 10th or 11th time in recent days alone.

Sure it is. Your track record speaks for itself.

1) Make a claim
2) Get refuted by someone else
3) Accuse that person of being an MJ stan
4) Try to refute that person by projecting the rebuttal onto MJ
5) Person refutes that rebuttal
6) Write a dissertation filled with straw man arguments and convoluted ideas that are inconsistent when tested against similar circumstances
7) Get rebutted again with facts and ignore them

The simplest case is your refusal to accept that Magic > Kareem in their 10 years together. Your entire argument hinges on the first two years. You refused to accept despite facts being presented.

But aye, big yourself up more and more if that makes you feel good about yourself.

[Docs Orders]

LostCause having a hot n juicy meltdown on his HoopsNY acct :lol

[HoopsNY]

LostCause having a hot n juicy meltdown on his HoopsNY acct :lol

smh. I don't have alt accts.

[GimmeThat]

so, Kevin Durant took a 73 win team from losing in the finals to 2 championships while winning 2 FMVP.

Kevin Durant > Michael Jordan, am I right

[3ball]

With the money on the line in Game 7:

Pippen 17/11/11 on 64%
X-Man 14/7/0 on 40%

Not even 1 assist from X?



Bulls were supposed to sweep those Knicks but Pippen was getting severely outplayed by X-man through 6 games until MJ saved him in game 7 by standing up to X-man






You also posted fake ECSF numbers. The real ones are:

Pippen 16/8/7 with 2 steals and 1 block on 40%
McDaniel 19/6/2 with 1 steal and 0 blocks on 50%.

All this was in the career highlight for McDaniel, the only thing he is remembered for and in a down series (for him) by Pippen. :lol





You don't know your history... :facepalm:..


89' MJ wins the ring with 2nd year Xavier McDaniel instead of 2nd year Pippen:



2nd year in conference finals

X-man 87' WCF vs Lakers... 25/9/4 on 53%
Pippen 89' ECF vs Detroit... 10/8/4 on 40%


Regular Season

87' X-man.... 23.0 ppg.. 8.6 rpg.. 2.5 apg.. 50.9 fg.. 18.7 PER
89' Pippen... 14.4 ppg.. 6.1 rpg.. 3.5 apg.. 47.3 fg.. 16.5 PER


Playoffs

87' X-man.... 20.3 ppg.. 8.4 rpg.. 3.0 apg.. 48.8 fg
89' Pippen... 13.1 ppg.. 7.6.rpg.. 3.9 apg.. 46.2 fg


Head-to-head matchup from Pippen's prime

X-man 92' ECF.... 18.6 on 50%
Pippen 92' ECF... 16.0 on 40%



^^^ 2nd year X-man was a much better player than 2nd year Pippen in the regular season and playoffs, while also outplaying him H2H in Pip's prime..

that's enough to say he'd win titles with MJ in 89' and maybe 90' as well, which would make him superior to Pippen for HS, college, draft, and as a young pro..

How could Pippen overcome this and still be ranked higher all-time like he achieved alongside jordan?.. Seems impossible.. He simply won the "play with MJ" lottery, while his actual production was far below his peers...

Admittedly - X-man is an extreme example, but you can see how 2nd and 3rd year Dominique or Worthy would've won titles with MJ in 89/90 and therefore had an insurmountable lead on Pippen... Or Derrick Coleman, who was more talented than Pippen






...





You ran from this:

Teams have a finite amount of energy to expend at both ends of the floor.. Increased efforts on one end take away from the other end.. this matters because the bulls had #1 offenses (goat offenses) with MJ - so it's remarkable that they still had top 5 defenses as well.

It's not bullshit - MJ gave teams a 2-way team... It should puzzle you how a team with LESS good defenders, was a better defensive team... It's because their offense sucked and they focused on defense

Keep in mind that the Bulls ranked 4th, 7th, and 4th defensively during the 1st three-peat, and were #6 in 1994 - so their decline from goat modern dynasty to 2nd round loser was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (the same offense that allowed his triangles to achieve bigger margins above league ortg than Shaq/Kobe's triangles... Let that sink in)

[GimmeThat]

Bulls were supposed to sweep those Knicks but Pippen was getting severely outplayed by X-man through 6 games until MJ saved him in game 7 by standing up to X-man






You don't know your history... :facepalm:..


89' MJ wins the ring with 2nd year Xavier McDaniel instead of 2nd year Pippen:



2nd year in conference finals

X-man 87' WCF vs Lakers... 25/9/4 on 53%
Pippen 89' ECF vs Detroit... 10/8/4 on 40%


Regular Season

87' X-man.... 23.0 ppg.. 8.6 rpg.. 2.5 apg.. 50.9 fg.. 18.7 PER
89' Pippen... 14.4 ppg.. 6.1 rpg.. 3.5 apg.. 47.3 fg.. 16.5 PER


Playoffs

87' X-man.... 20.3 ppg.. 8.4 rpg.. 3.0 apg.. 48.8 fg
89' Pippen... 13.1 ppg.. 7.6.rpg.. 3.9 apg.. 46.2 fg


Head-to-head matchup from Pippen's prime

X-man 92' ECF.... 18.6 on 50%
Pippen 92' ECF... 16.0 on 40%



^^^ 2nd year X-man was a much better player than 2nd year Pippen in the regular season and playoffs, while also outplaying him H2H in Pip's prime..

that's enough to say he'd win titles with MJ in 89' and maybe 90' as well, which would make him superior to Pippen for HS, college, draft, and as a young pro..

How could Pippen overcome this and still be ranked higher all-time like he achieved alongside jordan?.. Seems impossible.. He simply won the "play with MJ" lottery, while his actual production was far below his peers...

Admittedly - X-man is an extreme example, but you can see how 2nd and 3rd year Dominique or Worthy would've won titles with MJ in 89/90 and therefore had an insurmountable lead on Pippen... Or Derrick Coleman, who was more talented than Pippen






You ran from this:

Teams have a finite amount of energy to expend at both ends of the floor.. Increased efforts on one end take away from the other end.. this matters because the bulls had #1 offenses (goat offenses) with MJ - so it's remarkable that they still had top 5 defenses as well.

It's not bullshit - MJ gave teams a 2-way team... It should puzzle you how a team with LESS good defenders, was a better defensive team... It's because their offense sucked and they focused on defense

Keep in mind that the Bulls ranked 4th, 7th, and 4th defensively during the 1st three-peat, and were #6 in 1994 - so their decline from goat modern dynasty to 2nd round loser was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense (the same offense that allowed his triangles to achieve bigger margins above league ortg than Shaq/Kobe's triangles... Let that sink in)

why do you keep on running away from net efficiency rating then?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fclevelandca vs%2Fcomments%2F8bb4ep%2Ftil_each_of_lebrons_8_nba _finals_opponents_had_a%2F&psig=AOvVaw35Fq2d4UEh750CGccwepjK&ust=1589261531192000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCIj40NyKq-kCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD

[3ball]

why do you keep on running away from net efficiency rating then?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fclevelandca vs%2Fcomments%2F8bb4ep%2Ftil_each_of_lebrons_8_nba _finals_opponents_had_a%2F&psig=AOvVaw35Fq2d4UEh750CGccwepjK&ust=1589261531192000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCIj40NyKq-kCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD

Lebron played in an era where only 2 teams had 3 perennial all-stars, aka "Big 3's" - Heat/Spurs and Cavs/Warriors

It was a top heavy league so these Big 3 teams crushed everyone and had higher net ratings

Otoh, the 90's saw teams with "big 2's" making the Finals, so more teams were Finals-caliber.. more teams had big 2's so net ratings were lower (better parity)

But look how ridiculous the comp argument is - there were only 2 teams with with Big 3's in recent years - these were the golden tickets to the Finals so it's pretty silly for one of the golden tickets to complain about "comp".. it's ridiculous - lebron had his own big 3's and rarely faced a talent deficit - he was the underdog because he only won 51 games with his Big 3 and failed to flirt with 70 wins like his peers Kawhi and curry

Ultimately, it doesn't make sense to compare comp from a big 2 vs big 2 format to a big 3 vs big 3 format... Obviously, if we gave the 98' Jazz or the 93' Suns a 3rd star, they'd sweep anyone in history

[GimmeThat]

Lebron played in an era where only 2 teams had 3 perennial all-stars, aka "Big 3's" - Heat/Spurs and Cavs/Warriors

It was a top heavy league so these Big 3 teams crushed everyone and had higher net ratings

Otoh, the 90's saw teams with "big 2's" making the Finals, so more teams were Finals-caliber.. more teams had big 2's so net ratings were lower (better parity)

But look how ridiculous the comp argument is - there were only 2 teams with with Big 3's in recent years - these were the golden tickets to the Finals so it's pretty silly for one of the golden tickets to complain about "comp".. it's ridiculous - lebron had his own big 3's and rarely faced a talent deficit - he was the underdog because he only won 51 games with his Big 3 and failed to flirt with 70 wins like his peers Kawhi and curry

Ultimately, it doesn't make sense to compare comp from a big 2 vs big 2 format to a big 3 vs big 3 format... Obviously, if we gave the 98' Jazz or the 93' Suns a 3rd star, they'd sweep anyone in history

well, you did it.

you quoted Newton's law of motion, then disregarded it. Your lack of critical thinking skills is projecting

showing us, set directions of force is the flaw of Newton's argument.

then you stated, it doesn't make sense to compare comp from a big 2 vs big 2 format to a big 3 vs big 3 format, yet you started a thread and a poll specifically to make the comparison.

only your argument is really 1 v 1, because it seem you aren't bright enough to include assists as a statistical category.

which is what puzzles you about net efficiency huh

[Axe]

Lol are you a scientist or what

[AussieSteve]

Who was better according to their contemporaries?

All NBA: 7 vs 2
All NBA 1st: 3 vs 0
All D: 10 vs 0
All D 1st: 8 vs 0
Seasons with MVP votes: 6 vs 0
Top 10 MVP: 5 vs 0
Top 5 MVP: 3 vs 0
Player of the month: 2 (whole league) vs 0 (conference only)

@3ball - how does a player who was 'the worst 2nd option ever' garner so many honors and award votes? And how was someone else who was better garner virtually no honors and awards votes?

[Roundball_Rock]

Who was better according to their contemporaries?

All NBA: 7 vs 2
All NBA 1st: 3 vs 0
All D: 10 vs 0
All D 1st: 8 vs 0
Seasons with MVP votes: 6 vs 0
Top 10 MVP: 5 vs 0
Top 5 MVP: 3 vs 0
Player of the month: 2 (whole league) vs 0 (conference only)

@3ball - how does a player who was 'the worst 2nd option ever' garner so many honors and award votes? And how was someone else who was better garner virtually no honors and awards votes?

Kyrie has been in the NBA since 2012 and has not gotten a single MVP vote, not even a 5th place vote. :lol

Also, how could Pippen be considered a superstar in that era if he was a scrub? That would imply MJ played in an incredibly weak era. MJ stans never square that circle: they want to say Pippen sucked but can't explain how a scrub was considered a premier player of what they say was a great era.

[Lebron23]

Who was better according to their contemporaries?

All NBA: 7 vs 2
All NBA 1st: 3 vs 0
All D: 10 vs 0
All D 1st: 8 vs 0
Seasons with MVP votes: 6 vs 0
Top 10 MVP: 5 vs 0
Top 5 MVP: 3 vs 0
Player of the month: 2 (whole league) vs 0 (conference only)

@3ball - how does a player who was 'the worst 2nd option ever' garner so many honors and award votes? And how was someone else who was better garner virtually no honors and awards votes?

/end thread

[RogueBorg]

At what point do you start admitting that Pippen has become overrated and considered better than he was at the time?

You are absolutely right, AT THE TIME, Pippen was not viewed as this god-like player as he is today.

[Roundball_Rock]

You are absolutely right, AT THE TIME, Pippen was not viewed as this god-like player as he is today.

He was viewed as a top 5 player at his peak at the time. It is MJ stans* who are trying to revise history to make him out to be Shawn Kemp.

*Sorry for noting that 90% of the "Pippen sucks" movement happen to be fans of the same guy.

[BigShotBob]

He was viewed as a top 5 player at his peak at the time. It is MJ stans* who are trying to revise history to make him out to be Shawn Kemp.

*Sorry for noting that 90% of the "Pippen sucks" movement happen to be fans of the same guy.

You're right, because Shawn Kemp was better than him.

So was Nique, KJ, GP, Mitch Richmond, Grant Hill, Penny, Zo', Clyde, Stockton, etc.

Pippen looks good because of Jordan.

[Roundball_Rock]

Hi 3 ball. :lol

[2ball]

Can anyone name a better performance by a second star in the NBA Finals? The only one's I'd concede are maybe Steph in 2017 and 2018, but neither of those should count since Warriors 2016-2019 healthy broke basketball (KD and Steph had no business being on the same team).

Kyrie Irving in Games 3-7 in the 2016 NBA Finals (played like garbo games 1-2) -

Game 3: 30 points, 8 assists, 4 rebounds

Game 4: 34 points, 4 assists, 4 rebounds

Game 5: 41 points, 6 assists, 3 rebounds

Game 6: 23 points, 3 assists, 4 rebounds

Game 7: 26 points, 1 assist, 6 rebounds

5 game average: 30.8 points, 4.4 assists, 4.4 rebounds

I don't think any other player has ever played that well over a 5 game stretch in the NBA Finals and rightfully not won NBA Finals MVP. Can anyone think of sometime of note? The only ones I think are somewhat comparable are 2002 Kobe and 2017/2018 Steph (Which I don't think should count).

[light]

Well, look, Kyrie missed a Finals. An entire series. Love too.

Pippen was always there. So was Grant and Rodman for that matter. Those guys were not injury prone.

[Rico2016]

Pip: 18
Kyrie: 9

https://media.giphy.com/media/10MGhMGr4WCiVW/giphy.gif

[Rico2016]

Can anyone name a better performance by a second star in the NBA Finals? The only one's I'd concede are maybe Steph in 2017 and 2018, but neither of those should count since Warriors 2016-2019 healthy broke basketball (KD and Steph had no business being on the same team).

Kyrie Irving in Games 3-7 in the 2016 NBA Finals (played like garbo games 1-2) -

Game 3: 30 points, 8 assists, 4 rebounds

Game 4: 34 points, 4 assists, 4 rebounds

Game 5: 41 points, 6 assists, 3 rebounds

Game 6: 23 points, 3 assists, 4 rebounds

Game 7: 26 points, 1 assist, 6 rebounds

5 game average: 30.8 points, 4.4 assists, 4.4 rebounds

I don't think any other player has ever played that well over a 5 game stretch in the NBA Finals and rightfully not won NBA Finals MVP. Can anyone think of sometime of note? The only ones I think are somewhat comparable are 2002 Kobe and 2017/2018 Steph (Which I don't think should count).

Are you giving LeBron a compliment? You're asking how did a player like Kyrie who played SO WELL that how the hell did he not win a Finals MVP?

Oh. Heh. Because his teammate LeBron played even better. DOH

[Rico2016]

No love for 2016 Westbrook and his 27/11/7/4 line? This is how it goes these days?

2016 WCF (Thunder vs Warriors)
Westbrook 27-11-7-4

"Westbrook SUX, KD need more help!"

2016 Finals (Cavaliers vs Warriors)
Kyrie 27-4-4-2

"Kyrie is so good, LBJ has too much help!"

Whut

[Round Mound]

PIPPEN´s broken down stats. You say he was NOT A TOP 10 PLAYER IN THE 90's? Check This Out

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th) *Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)

:confusedshrug:

[Roundball_Rock]

Almost all of Kyrie's votes are from Jordan stans. :roll: