Scottie Pippen outscored opponent 2nd option in 5 of 6 Finals ... WHAT

[LeCroix]

Hey wait a minute.

Scottie did scored more then the #2 option in 5 of 6 Finals

WHAT

Plus his defense?????

[warriorfan]

Did he score more than Jason Terry?

[LAmbruh]

Today, 09:02 AM
Today, 09:04 AM


damn, OP got welfarefan chasing him around like a love sick puppy

[LeCroix]

Today, 09:02 AM
Today, 09:04 AM


damn, OP got welfarefan chasing him around like a love sick puppy

he seems mentally sick i wish him well. he really likes jason terry and curry alot. weird combo. 2 non finals mvp guys.

back to the topic now WarriorFan!

Scottie outscored the opponents number #2 option in 5 of the 6 finals he played. what a beast

[Roundball_Rock]

:lebronamazed:

Wait, so if Pippen is a scrub what does that say about the comp?

Also keep in mind those second options weren't playing the D Pippen was.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Pippen was also the defensive anchor, the 2nd 3peat he was the lead playmaker. That's why the media has shit twisted, scottie is not a "robin". Pairing Jordan and Pippen is like pairing Batman and Superman, there is no Robin.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pairing Jordan and Pippen is like pairing Batman and Superman, there is no Robin.

True.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Pippens best attributes were his defense and playmaking.

BUT HE WAS ALSO OUTSCORING OTHER 2ND OPTIONS?!!!

that's just overkill.

Best 2nd option of all time by a huge margin.

[LeCroix]

Pippens best attributes were his defense and playmaking.

BUT HE WAS ALSO OUTSCORING OTHER 2ND OPTIONS?!!!

that's just overkill.

Best 2nd option of all time by a huge margin.

and for the 91 finals...

pippen even out scored the other teams #1 option

[Overdrive]

Hey wait a minute.

Scottie did scored more then the #2 option in 5 of 6 Finals

WHAT

Plus his defense?????

Would you apply the same context to the guy you make those agenda threads for?

[Roundball_Rock]

and for the 91 finals...

pippen even out scored the other teams #1 option

Yup and he wasn't far behind Drexler and Malone (97') either on much lower usage. If you look at EC series you will find Pippen outscoring the #1 option on the other side fairly often, despite MJ consuming a record number of shots per game.

[LeCroix]

Yup and he wasn't far behind Drexler and Malone (97') either on much lower usage. If you look at EC series you will find Pippen outscoring the #1 option on the other side fairly often, despite MJ consuming a record number of shots per game.

and with elite most all nba defense selections in history as perimeter player? yikes, he is the goat #2 optoin. hands down

[LeCroix]

Would you apply the same context to the guy you make those agenda threads for?

no one cries on pippen like a mj stan dont you know this? mj need pip, not the other way around

[Overdrive]

no one cries on pippen like a mj stan dont you know this? mj need pip, not the other way around

Pippen didn't need Jordan for what? Between Jordan and your fav player only Lebron had a 2nd option that didn't need him to win a title.
Also on 2 of 3 occasions his 2nd option outscored the other teams 1st.

This thread is stupid. Great teams have great 2nd options.

[3ball]

89' Pippen < 09' Mo

90' Pippen < Ingram

In 1991, Magic wasn't guarded by a forward like he normally was.. MJ gave Pippen a break from a forward's normal duties by guarding Magic most of the time.. So Pippen could rest more for offense, and he had his biggest game when he didn't have to guard Magic or Worthy in Game 5

In 1992, MJ took Pippen's assignment again and guarded a bigger wing

In 1993, Pippen should've averaged at least 25 but he lacks the skills, and KJ would've normally outplayed Pip but he was hurt

In 1996, pip was outplayed... And in 97/98', Stockton was the #2 jazz player and league assist leader.

[Uncle Drew]

89' Pippen < 09' Mo

90' Pippen < Ingram

In 1991, Magic wasn't guarded by a forward like he normally was.. MJ gave Pippen a break from a forward's normal duties by guarding Magic most of the time.. So Pippen could rest more for offense, and he had his biggest game when he didn't have to guard Magic or Worthy in Game 5

In 1992, MJ took Pippen's assignment again and guarded a bigger wing

In 1993, Pippen should've averaged at least 25 but he lacks the skills, and KJ would've normally outplayed Pip but he was hurt

In 1996, pip was outplayed... And in 97/98', Stockton was the #2 jazz player and league assist leader.

:roll:

[Whoah10115]

He did scored.

[Docs Orders]

:roll:

:roll:

[3ball]

:roll:

There's stats to back up everything I said

Forwards normally guard Magic... but everyone knew Pippen couldn't handle the matchup from the outset of his 1st Finals... So MJ saved Pippen from getting his confidence crushed in Game 1 and guarded Magic most of the series

Btw, who cares if your 2nd option did okay in his matchup, if the 3rd, 4th and 5th matchups get destroyed?.. the bulls had the lowest scoring Finals casts ever - don't make me post the top 10 lowest scoring Finals casts

[ELITEpower23]

89' Pippen < 09' Mo

90' Pippen < Ingram

In 1991, Magic wasn't guarded by a forward like he normally was.. MJ gave Pippen a break from a forward's normal duties by guarding Magic most of the time.. So Pippen could rest more for offense, and he had his biggest game when he didn't have to guard Magic or Worthy in Game 5

In 1992, MJ took Pippen's assignment again and guarded a bigger wing

In 1993, Pippen should've averaged at least 25 but he lacks the skills, and KJ would've normally outplayed Pip but he was hurt

In 1996, pip was outplayed... And in 97/98', Stockton was the #2 jazz player and league assist leader.

What the :roll:

[Axe]

Pippen didn't need Jordan for what? Between Jordan and your fav player only Lebron had a 2nd option that didn't need him to win a title.
Also on 2 of 3 occasions his 2nd option outscored the other teams 1st.

This thread is stupid. Great teams have great 2nd options.
This.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen didn't need Jordan for what? Between Jordan and your fav player only Lebron had a 2nd option that didn't need him to win a title.

Between Wade and Pippen only Wade had a #1 option that didn't need him to win a title. See how it cuts both ways?

[Shooter]

Reminder. Pippen was pretty good. Even at scoring.

[aceman]

89' Pippen < 09' Mo

90' Pippen < Ingram

In 1991, Magic wasn't guarded by a forward like he normally was.. MJ gave Pippen a break from a forward's normal duties by guarding Magic most of the time.. So Pippen could rest more for offense, and he had his biggest game when he didn't have to guard Magic or Worthy in Game 5

In 1992, MJ took Pippen's assignment again and guarded a bigger wing

In 1993, Pippen should've averaged at least 25 but he lacks the skills, and KJ would've normally outplayed Pip but he was hurt

In 1996, pip was outplayed... And in 97/98', Stockton was the #2 jazz player and league assist leader.

Ha - has to compare different eras to discredit players. You lose

[3ball]

pippen outscored them because his efficiency was literally the worst all-time for a 2nd option.. otoh, they had great efficiency because they weren't forced to take more shots than they deserved like pippen was.. they had more well-rounded and deeper teams

again, pippen is a 3rd or 4th option player like Draymond, but he was forced to play 2nd option, hence his horrific efficiency and weak ws/48 (ws/48 measures how much he outplayed guys at his minute-level)

the bulls had great team offense IN SPITE of pippen's bad offense..

[Round Mound]

:applause:

[aceman]

pippen outscored them because his efficiency was literally the worst all-time for a 2nd option.. otoh, they had great efficiency because they weren't forced to take more shots than they deserved like pippen was.. they had more well-rounded and deeper teams

again, pippen is a 3rd or 4th option player like Draymond, but he was forced to play 2nd option, hence his horrific efficiency and weak ws/48 (ws/48 measures how much he outplayed guys at his minute-level)

the bulls had great team offense IN SPITE of pippen's bad offense..

Not one of your best arguments

[97 bulls]

pippen outscored them because his efficiency was literally the worst all-time for a 2nd option.. otoh, they had great efficiency because they weren't forced to take more shots than they deserved like pippen was.. they had more well-rounded and deeper teams

again, pippen is a 3rd or 4th option player like Draymond, but he was forced to play 2nd option, hence his horrific efficiency and weak ws/48 (ws/48 measures how much he outplayed guys at his minute-level)

the bulls had great team offense IN SPITE of pippen's bad offense..

Let it go bro. Your arguments are old and tired and arent moving anybody. I constantly see new evidence of Scottie Pippens dominance. Your best arguments are quotes about Pip circa 89 his second year in the league.

[Roundball_Rock]

Let it go bro. Your arguments are old and tired and arent moving anybody. I constantly see new evidence of Scottie Pippens dominance. Your best arguments are quotes about Pip circa 89 his second year in the league.

Even in 89' the Bulls went 4-5 without Pippen and 43-30 with him. That's a difference between a 36 win pace and a 48 win pace so he had a big impact on the team even then. Basically every year of his career whenever he got hurt he had a double digit win impact on his team (one outlier year in Portland but the trend held in 89', 94', 98', 02' and 03').

The real question is if Pippen is a bum, why did the Bulls keep falling off so much without him--falling off more than they did without MJ?

[97 bulls]

Even in 89' the Bulls went 4-5 without Pippen and 43-30 with him. That's a difference between a 36 win pace and a 48 win pace so he had a big impact on the team even then. Basically every year of his career whenever he got hurt he had a double digit win impact on his team (one outlier year in Portland but the trend held in 89', 94', 98', 02' and 03').

The real question is if Pippen is a bum, why did the Bulls keep falling off so much without him--falling off more than they did without MJ?

Another key point that's always missed is the fact that Brad Sellers was a Lottery pick drafted by the Bulls and was the SF before Pip. The Bulls were giving Sellers the opportunity to succeed and thus made Pippen be forced to wait.

[Roundball_Rock]

It also was the way it was done for a lot of rookies back then. They act like every other HOF player from that era was averaging 20 PPG out the gate. Drexler, Miller, Worthy also were on the bench as rookies (so was Kevin Johnson who 3ball raves about) while Stockton was on the bench until his fourth season. McHale was a reserve for several years as well. Here is a comparison of HOF career starts http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480126-Pippen-s-Career-Start-Comparing-to-Other-Hall-of-Fame-Future-HOF-Players&p=13996616#post13996616.

Pippen became an all-star and all-NBA player at a good pace compared to these guys:

First All-Star Selection (Draft Pick in Parentheses)

Pippen (5): 3rd season
Drexler (14): 3rd season
Stockton (16): 5th season
Miller (11): 3rd season
McHale (3): 4th season
Nash (15): 6th season
Nowitzki (9): 4th season
Billups (3): 9th season
Harden (3): 4th season
Leonard (15): 5th season
Butler (30): 4th season
Worthy (1): 4th season
Payton (2): 4th season
D. Johnson (29): 3rd season
Parish (8): 5th season
Barkley (5): 3rd season
Manu (57): 3rd season

First All-NBA Selection (Draft Pick in Parentheses)

Pippen (5): 5th season
Drexler (14): 5th season
Stockton (16): 4th season
Miller (11): 8th season
McHale (3): 7th season
Nash (15): 6th season
Nowitzki (9): 3rd season
Billups (3): 9th season
Harden (3): 4th season
Leonard (15): 5th season
Butler (30): 6th season
Worthy (1): 8th season
Payton (2): 4th season
D. Johnson (29): 4th season
Parish (8): 6th season
Barkley (5): 2nd season
Manu (57): 6th season

Here is more context on 89' Pippen's value:

89' Bulls point differential w/out Pippen: -0.5 (4-5)
89' Bulls point differential with Pippen: +1.7 (43-30)

These are RS numbers. There was a playoff game against Detroit where Pippen technically played--but was injured after 1 minute (which deflates the deceptive averages you see in the OP as it counts as a game played but he has a 0/0/0 line). In that game the Bulls lost by 9. If you add that to the sample of "no Pippen" games in 89' it becomes:

89' Bulls point differential w/out Pippen: -1.4 (4-6)
89' Bulls point differential with Pippen: +1.7 (43-30)

[Nashty]

Jordan had a super team with another top 10 player in Pippen, one of the greatest Europeans of all time in Kukoc, one of the greatest rebounders and defenders in Rodman, one of the greatest shooters in Kerr, one of the greatest coaches in Phil Jackson in a watered down era when every other team had 1 star and bunch of scrubs. Replace Jordan with Jeremy Lamb and they win 8.

[Shooter]

It also was the way it was done for a lot of rookies back then. They act like every other HOF player from that era was averaging 20 PPG out the gate. Drexler, Miller, Worthy also were on the bench as rookies (so was Kevin Johnson who 3ball raves about) while Stockton was on the bench until his fourth season. McHale was a reserve for several years as well. Here is a comparison of HOF career starts http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480126-Pippen-s-Career-Start-Comparing-to-Other-Hall-of-Fame-Future-HOF-Players&p=13996616#post13996616.

Pippen became an all-star and all-NBA player at a good pace compared to these guys:

First All-Star Selection (Draft Pick in Parentheses)

Pippen (5): 3rd season
Drexler (14): 3rd season
Stockton (16): 5th season
Miller (11): 3rd season
McHale (3): 4th season
Nash (15): 6th season
Nowitzki (9): 4th season
Billups (3): 9th season
Harden (3): 4th season
Leonard (15): 5th season
Butler (30): 4th season
Worthy (1): 4th season
Payton (2): 4th season
D. Johnson (29): 3rd season
Parish (8): 5th season
Barkley (5): 3rd season
Manu (57): 3rd season

First All-NBA Selection (Draft Pick in Parentheses)

Pippen (5): 5th season
Drexler (14): 5th season
Stockton (16): 4th season
Miller (11): 8th season
McHale (3): 7th season
Nash (15): 6th season
Nowitzki (9): 3rd season
Billups (3): 9th season
Harden (3): 4th season
Leonard (15): 5th season
Butler (30): 6th season
Worthy (1): 8th season
Payton (2): 4th season
D. Johnson (29): 4th season
Parish (8): 6th season
Barkley (5): 2nd season
Manu (57): 6th season

Here is more context on 89' Pippen's value:

89' Bulls point differential w/out Pippen: -0.5 (4-5)
89' Bulls point differential with Pippen: +1.7 (43-30)

These are RS numbers. There was a playoff game against Detroit where Pippen technically played--but was injured after 1 minute (which deflates the deceptive averages you see in the OP as it counts as a game played but he has a 0/0/0 line). In that game the Bulls lost by 9. If you add that to the sample of "no Pippen" games in 89' it becomes:

89' Bulls point differential w/out Pippen: -1.4 (4-6)
89' Bulls point differential with Pippen: +1.7 (43-30)

Anyone?

[3ba11]

Anyone?


Pippen has the lowest peak of any notable sidekick

Ever

He's the only sidekick that wasn't a go-to player and the only sidekick that couldn't average more than 22 ppg

Since Pippen wasn't a scoring option with low scoring capability (15-22 ppg in every series), Jordan had to average 10-30 more than Pippen in every series

Jordan had to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load) because Pippen was always wetting the bed with low scoring and WOAT efficiency

[Shooter]

Pippen has the lowest peak of any notable sidekick

Ever

He's the only sidekick that wasn't a go-to player and the only sidekick that couldn't average more than 22 ppg

Since Pippen wasn't a scoring option with low scoring capability (15-22 ppg in every series), Jordan had to average 10-30 more than Pippen in every series

Jordan had to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load) because Pippen was always wetting the bed with low scoring and WOAT efficiency

Lower peak than Drexler's Terry Porter?
Lower peak than Kemp's Gary Payton?
Lower peak than Barkley's Kevin Johnson?
Lower peak than Malone's John Stockton?

Which of those guys above won 55 games without their #1 option and got 3rd in MVP votes?

Tick-tock.

[3ba11]

Lower peak than Drexler's Terry Porter?
Lower peak than Kemp's Gary Payton?
Lower peak than Barkley's Kevin Johnson?
Lower peak than Malone's John Stockton?

Which of those guys above won 55 games without their #1 option and got 3rd in MVP votes?

Tick-tock.


Anyone can destroy a 3-peat dynasty to lottery in less than 18 months - you or I could do it and probably even faster

Ultimately, only the playoffs matter, where every 90's sidekick was infact a 1b that led their team with elite dominant stats, except Pippen.

In the 92' WCF, orter averaged 26/5/8 on 52% including 53% on threes (6 attempts) to carry the Blazers to the 92' Finals - his Finals runs in 90' and 92' were DOMINANT runs where he was basically Damian Lillard - that's far superior to a transition player/hustler like Pippen.

Btw, Porter is the worst sidekick that Jordan faced in the Finals, yet his peak capability was far superior to Pippen's..

Let's look at Stockton - he averaged 21/11 and hit the series walk-off in Barkley's face to lead the Jazz to the 97' Finals.. Ultimately, Pippen is the only sidekick that never achieved elite ppg, rpg, or apg in a single series

Similarly, Kemp and Payton took turns leading the Sonics and achieving elite domination.. Penny also destroys Pippen - everyone does - even Robert Horry's best was better than Pippen's

[Spurs m8]

Pippen averaged 27ppg in a finals and hit all the important shots.

Oh wait, that was Kyrie

[Spurs m8]

The tears that come with all these meltdowns are hilarious :roll::roll::roll::roll:

Spent his whole weekend here, last weekend....Will spend all next weekend here too lmfao

[Shooter]

Anyone can destroy a 3-peat dynasty to lottery in less than 18 months - you or I could do it and probably even faster

Ultimately, only the playoffs matter, where every 90's sidekick was infact a 1b that led their team with elite dominant stats, except Pippen.

In the 92' WCF, orter averaged 26/5/8 on 52% including 53% on threes (6 attempts) to carry the Blazers to the 92' Finals - his Finals runs in 90' and 92' were DOMINANT runs where he was basically Damian Lillard - that's far superior to a transition player/hustler like Pippen.

Btw, Porter is the worst sidekick that Jordan faced in the Finals, yet his peak capability was far superior to Pippen's..

Let's look at Stockton - he averaged 21/11 and hit the series walk-off in Barkley's face to lead the Jazz to the 97' Finals.. Ultimately, Pippen is the only sidekick that never achieved elite ppg, rpg, or apg in a single series

Similarly, Kemp and Payton took turns leading the Sonics and achieving elite domination.. Penny also destroys Pippen - everyone does - even Robert Horry's best was better than Pippen's

Blah-blah-blah

So which Finals series would you swap Pippen for the opposing team's #2?

[kawhileonard2]

Lower peak than Drexler's Terry Porter?
Lower peak than Kemp's Gary Payton?
Lower peak than Barkley's Kevin Johnson?
Lower peak than Malone's John Stockton?

Which of those guys above won 55 games without their #1 option and got 3rd in MVP votes?

Tick-tock.

Kevin Johnson beat peak Magic Johnson and James Worthy without HCA. Bet you didn't know that.

John Stockton beat peak Shaq/Kobe, Duncan/Robinson, Hakeem/Barkley/Drexler.

Lebron lost with peak Duncan/Iverson to Carlos Arroyo.

[bdonovan]

Pippen played FOUR whole years on Portland?? I must have lost track of that.

Interestingly Pippen lingered in the NBA so long, his last year he overlapped with LeBron !

[Phoenix]

Kevin Johnson beat peak Magic Johnson and James Worthy without HCA. Bet you didn't know that.



Bet you didn't know Tom Chambers and Jeff Hornacek both averaged 22 and 21ppg in that series, and Chambers was the leading scorer for both the season and playoffs, but sure let's act like KJ was a one man show here.

[97 bulls]

Pippen played FOUR whole years on Portland?? I must have lost track of that.

Interestingly Pippen lingered in the NBA so long, his last year he overlapped with LeBron !

Right. He was an old man by then. Why is this logic never applicable to Pippen?