I learned more about the Bulls in this single post than I did in the documentary

[1987_Lakers]

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1962966

:applause:

[Stanley Kobrick]

i use to post there, its a very well informative forum with good users :cheers:

[3ball]

It shows that the bulls BEGGED Seattle to take Pippen for Kemp but Seattle viewed kemp as the "A" side

Probably because of how Pippen averaged 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals, while Kemp dominated

Pippen is severely overrated and it's now a FACT that he was worth less then Kemp... Now we know what MJ won with - a guy that was considered less then Kemp.. like I said all along... Top 30 my f*cking ass ridiculous bullshit

Krause said MJ raised Pippen and made him a man

[HoopsNY]

It shows that the bulls BEGGED Seattle to take Pippen for Kemp but Seattle viewed kemp as the "A" side

Probably because of how Pippen averaged 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals, while Kemp dominated

Pippen is severely overrated and it's now a FACT that he was worth less then Kemp... Now we know what MJ won with - a guy that was considered less then Kemp.. like I said all along... Top 30 my f*cking ass ridiculous bullshit

Krause said MJ raised Pippen and made him a man

I don't think that's fair. Kemp was 26 at the time and Pippen was turning 32. He clearly had a bigger upside and at that point, he was arguably the better player, though it was close.

You really need to fall back with this narrative that Pippen was garbage. As a #2, there wasn't a better option in the league between 1990-1998 until maybe Penny Hardaway and Shawn Kemp in 1996. And that was short lived once Penny started getting injured and Kemp left and went to Cleveland. But for the entirety of those years, Pippen was the best sidekick in the NBA.

[3ball]

I don't think that's fair. Kemp was 26 at the time and Pippen was turning 32. He clearly had a bigger upside and at that point, he was arguably the better player, though it was close.

You really need to fall back with this narrative that Pippen was garbage. As a #2, there wasn't a better option in the league between 1990-1998 until maybe Penny Hardaway and Shawn Kemp in 1996. And that was short lived once Penny started getting injured and Kemp left and went to Cleveland. But for the entirety of those years, Pippen was the best sidekick in the NBA.

basically every year MJ had win with Pip getting outplayed in the following series by the opponent's 2nd or 3rd best player:



88' 1st Rd

89' 1st Rd
89' 2nd Rd

90' ECF

92' ECSF

93' 1st Rd

96' Finals
96' ECF
96' ECSF


And there's probably some series in 97' and 98' but I'm too lazy to look now - I know he was outplayed at the end of the 98' Finals..

Btw, that list doesn't include series that MJ lost (wasn't able to overcome Pippen getting outplayed), aka 88' 2nd Rd.. 89' ECF.. 90' ECF.. 95' ECSF

Finally, the Bulls had the lowest-scoring casts ever because Pippen was frequently getting outplayed and the bulls didn't have a 3rd scorer or any irreplaceable players - every player was different on the 1st and 2nd three-peats except MJ/Pip (replaceable role players)

[GimmeThat]

Krause said MJ raised Pippen and made him a man

Yes, Krause then signs a player who dressed as a women while playing a key role 3-peating

your subconscious of showing you want to see Dennis Rodman bending Jordan over and f*cking him from behind is showing

[3ball]

Yes, Krause then signs a player who dressed as a women while playing a key role 3-peating

your subconscious of showing you want to see Dennis Rodman bending Jordan over and f*cking him from behind is showing

Lol one of your best although I don't read most of yours if you're in gibberish mode

[GimmeThat]

Lol one of your best although I don't read most of yours if you're in gibberish mode

well, your MFM 3-some brain wouldn't be able to understand the MFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF mind.

[Uncle Drew]

Remember when 3ball started posting his nonsense on RealGM and got banned after just 4 posts?

[Axe]

Poor thing.

[3ball]

Remember when 3ball started posting his nonsense on RealGM and got banned after just 4 posts?

I think that was where I listed all of lebron's best teammates - aka Wade, Kyrie, Bosh, Love, Mo - and then showed how their assists cratered alongside lebron, which led to low TEAM assist rankings and massively out-assisted in the Finals

I linked all the stats to nba.com source

In addition to showing the assist reduction (less playmaking), I also showed the increased assisted rate (play-finishing) - aka lebron turns teammates into play-finishers, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that this basic, low-assist brand gets destroyed by everyone on the championship level regardless of cast or opponent

I thought the argument was sound and skilled-based - it wasn't your standard 6/6 argument... It explained why he was 3/9

[HBK_Kliq_2]

basically every year MJ had win with Pip getting outplayed in the following series by the opponent's 2nd or 3rd best player:



88' 1st Rd

89' 1st Rd
89' 2nd Rd

90' ECF

92' ECSF

93' 1st Rd

96' Finals
96' ECF
96' ECSF


And there's probably some series in 97' and 98' but I'm too lazy to look now - I know he was outplayed at the end of the 98' Finals..

Btw, that list doesn't include series that MJ lost (wasn't able to overcome Pippen getting outplayed), aka 88' 2nd Rd.. 89' ECF.. 90' ECF.. 95' ECSF

Finally, the Bulls had the lowest-scoring casts ever because Pippen was frequently getting outplayed and the bulls didn't have a 3rd scorer or any irreplaceable players - every player was different on the 1st and 2nd three-peats except MJ/Pip (replaceable role players)

Pre prime shouldn't be judged, lets only look at Pippen's prime years from 1991-2000

1992 semi finals - Pippen had the 3rd highest GmSc on both teams only to Jordan and Ewing.

1993 1st round - Bulls won in a sweep, you can't knock a guy when his team won in a sweep.

1996 east finals - Pippen averaged 18\7\7 with a 120 offensive rating, best in assists on the team and best defender, also a sweep

1996 east semi finals - 3rd highest GmSc on both teams behind only Jordan\Ewing, 3 steals per game, leader in assists

The 1996 finals is basically the only time you can reasonably knock Scottie Pippen.

[LukeWalton]

yeah reading that makes me feel Pops or Riley GOAT coach, not PJ

[FultzNationRISE]

This part was really fascinating:


One of the big battles that later fractured the Jackson-Krause relationship was Krause's desire to 'be one of the boys' and continuously hang around the team, even though few liked him. This devolved to silly levels: Jordan wanted to be alone in the bathroom for a pre-game ritual, so Krause continually snuck in and 'ambushed him' there. You can't make this stuff up.


Why did MJ want to be alone so badly when he was in the bathroom?

What was he afraid of people finding out?

[3ball]

Pre prime shouldn't be judged, lets only look at Pippen's prime years from 1991-2000



We have to count the pre-prime years because of how bad Pippen was

If he gets 13 on 45% in the 89' ECF (less than his RS numbers), they win... That shouldn't be too much to ask but he got 9.7 on 40%





1992 semi finals - Pippen had the 3rd highest GmSc on both teams only to Jordan and Ewing.

1993 1st round - Bulls won in a sweep, you can't knock a guy when his team won in a sweep.

1996 east finals - Pippen averaged 18\7\7 with a 120 offensive rating, best in assists on the team and best defender, also a sweep

1996 east semi finals - 3rd highest GmSc on both teams behind only Jordan\Ewing, 3 steals per game, leader in assists

The 1996 finals is basically the only time you can reasonably knock Scottie Pippen.



Pippen was outplayed by Penny in the 96' ECF and 95' ECSF - so they both count - someone said Pippen was the best sidekick, so we're finding instances he was outplayed - that's what that long list was - there's tons of examples, most of which MJ overcame, but not all damn you pip

[Docs Orders]

This part was really fascinating:




Why did MJ want to be alone so badly when he was in the bathroom?

What was he afraid of people finding out?

https://i.postimg.cc/cL9jSvyW/rtutuitut.png

[LeCroix]

https://i.postimg.cc/cL9jSvyW/rtutuitut.png

:roll: :roll:

[Mamba4Life]

https://i.postimg.cc/cL9jSvyW/rtutuitut.png

:roll:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

We have to count the pre-prime years because of how bad Pippen was

If he gets 13 on 45% in the 89' ECF (less than his RS numbers), they win... That shouldn't be too much to ask but he got 9.7 on 40%



Pippen was outplayed by Penny in the 96' ECF and 95' ECSF - so they both count - someone said Pippen was the best sidekick, so we're finding instances he was outplayed - that's what that long list was - there's tons of examples, most of which MJ overcame, but not all damn you pip

In the 1996 east finals Pippen had a higher offensive rating by 12 points over Hardaway and also had a higher GmSc over Hardaway as well. Take in consideration the massive defensive gap that Pippen had on Penny. There's no way Pippen was outplayed that series by Penny Hardaway.

1995 ECSF is when Jordan wasn't his usual self and was turning the ball over losing games and that's why he switched his number from 45 to 23

[3ball]

In the 1996 east finals Pippen had a higher offensive rating by 12 points over Hardaway and also had a higher GmSc over Hardaway as well. Take in consideration the massive defensive gap that Pippen had on Penny. There's no way Pippen was outplayed that series by Penny Hardaway.

1995 ECSF is when Jordan wasn't his usual self and was turning the ball over losing games and that's why he switched his number from 45 to 23

The 95' ECSF wouldn't have come down to a couple turnovers by MJ if Pippen averaged say, 22 on 47% (like the RS) instead of 19 on 40% stinker that he put up..

And Penny had more turnovers/lower ortg because he was carrying an actual PG load, while Pippen was carried by the triangle.. And Pippen's defense was bad because he let Penny go off above his normal averages and above his own

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The 95' ECSF wouldn't have come down to a couple turnovers by MJ if Pippen averaged say, 22 on 47% (like the RS) instead of 19 on 40% stinker that he put up..

And Penny had more turnovers/lower ortg because he was carrying an actual PG load, while Pippen was carried by the triangle.. And Pippen's defense was bad because he let Penny go off above his normal averages and above his own

1995 semi finals Pippen was playing for a year and half without Jordan as the clear cut 1st option, Pippen had to adjust and it took more than just 18 games like Jordan allowed the situation to play out to be. Having said all that, Pippen still had them winning until Jordan had the ball stolen from him by Nick Anderson in game 1. If they win game 1 they probably still win the series.

1996 east finals penny was scoring meaningless PPG while getting swept but still was inferior in GmSC to Pippen, offensive rating, also with a massive defense edge for Pippen. I don't see the argument for Penny in that series at all.

[FultzNationRISE]

https://i.postimg.cc/cL9jSvyW/rtutuitut.png



:yaohappy:

[GimmeThat]

This part was really fascinating:




Why did MJ want to be alone so badly when he was in the bathroom?

What was he afraid of people finding out?

Lola Bunny, he didn't want others to learn about his relationship with Lola Bunny

[Axe]

Lola Bunny, he didn't want others to learn about his relationship with Lola Bunny
Lmao you have me reminiscing the old space jam movie from the 90s

[Roundball_Rock]

No one thought Kemp was equal to Pippen in 95' (the year of the potential trade) or even 96'. :oldlol: That was the point: Seattle would get the superior player in the short term in the hope of getting over the hump while Chicago would take a step back but get a younger player for the long term. For perspective, Kemp never made all-NBA first team or was a MVP candidate. He was a top 10 player but not a MVP caliber or top 5 player like Pippen.

When Kemp finally was traded it was Vin Baker Seattle got back for him (both were young so there was no short/long term issue). Similar results, not the same hype of Kemp because he couldn't dunk like Kemp. The way people talk about Kemp you would think he was Karl Malone.

3ball is being misleading at best with his posts about Pippen in the playoffs. I had a lengthy thread years ago about Pippen in the playoffs. I'll dig it up.

Pippen's 96' finals was his worst series in the 6 runs but what he doesn't tell you is Pippen had three injuries at the time.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen was outplayed by Penny in the 96' ECF and 95' ECSF - so they both count - someone said Pippen was the best sidekick, so we're finding instances he was outplayed - that's what that long list was - there's tons of examples, most of which MJ overcame, but not all damn you pip

1995 ECSF

Pippen 19/10/6 on 41%
Penny 19/4/8 on 44%

Game scores: Pippen 15.8, Penny 15.4

1996 ECF

Pippen 19/7/7 on 45% with 2 steals.
Penny 26/4/4 on on 47% with 1 steal.

Game scores: Pippen 16.6, Penny 15.6

The tell with these guys is when they leave out material information (like partial box scores). Go to basketball-reference and you can easily see why they left it out. :lol


90' ECF

92' ECSF

93' 1st Rd

96' Finals
96' ECF
96' ECSF

92' ECFS was exposed yesterday. Pippen basically matched Ewing's (the NY #1) production and outplayed the Knicks' #2. Pippen had 17/11/11 on 64% in game 7 while his counterpart had only 14/7/0 on 40% with the money on the line.

96' ECSF

Pippen 16/8/5 on 33% with 3 steals
Starks 14/3/3 on 38% with 2 steals

Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Starks 8.1

This wasn't a real series BTW. A 72 win team against a 47 win team.

90' ECF

Pippen 17/6/4 on 43% with 2 steals
Dumars 20/2/4 on 50% with 1 steal

Game scores: Dumars 13.4, Pippen 12.2

So Pippen gets outproduced by the Detroit #2 but the margin is small--not the story you were told--and due to the migraine game. Prior to that he was 19/7/4 on 46% with a game score of 14.6. The migraine game happened though and should count against him. He shouldn't have played 42 minutes while in that condition, though.


basically every year MJ had win with Pip getting outplayed in the following series by the opponent's 2nd or 3rd best player:

Not sure where this "3rd best player" nonsense is coming from.

Also note he listed a handful of series. Think of the lion's share of series he did not list--and why. :oldlol: