The Pippen for Kemp/Pierce Trade in 1995

[Roundball_Rock]

We get spammed about this daily so people might as well get the facts of the deal and the context. The first thing is we are told it was a Pippen for Kemp deal. It wasn't. It was a Pippen for Kemp & Ricky Pierce plus draft pick swaps.

Who was Pippen circa 94'? Pippen had come off his best season where he, along with Hakeem and David Robinson were MVP candidates. He made all-NBA first team and all-Defense first team. Here were the all-NBA results:

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1994

1) Pippen (forward) 94
2) Hakeem (center) 68
3) Malone (forward) 65
4) Stockton (guard) 56
5) Sprewell (guard) 29

Pippen also was the #1 vote getter for the all-Defensive first team. His 94' line was 22/9/6 with 3 steals. Pippen would be 29 years old in 95'.

Who was Shawn Kemp? Kemp was Seattle's leading scorer and posted a line of 18/11/3 in 94'. Kemp made all-NBA second team that season (he was a forward, so he was behind Pippen). He would be 25 years old in 95'.

Who was Rickey Pierce? He was an aging player who as recently as 93' was Seattle's leading scorer. In the 94' season his line was 15/2/2. He would be 35 years old in 95'.

What were the teams trying to accomplish? The Bulls were looking to rebuild around a younger star after Jordan had retired. Jackson wanted to start from scratch and Krause agreed. There was ill will towards Pippen because of his shenanigans in Game 3 against New York. Seattle was looking to win a championship. They had the best record in the NBA in 94' but lost in the first round. This was the first year Payton was an all-star. The previous year they made the conference finals but lost. The 94' team was the first with the Payton/Kemp/Schrempf core.

This was not a trade of equals. As you can see, Seattle would be giving up two key players for one. Moreover, Pippen clearly was the best player in the trade. The idea was for Seattle to win now with Pippen and Chicago to rebuild. The tale that we get spammed with is that Pippen/Kemp were equal caliber players. That makes no sense: 1) Pippen was commanding more trade value 2) Pippen was 4 years older. If they were equal caliber players Kemp would be the one commanding more value due to his youth, not Pippen. Pippen's superiority talent wise offset the age delta. Salary cap was a factor but in every Pippen trade proposal he clearly commanded more trade value than the other centerpiece.


The Bulls reportedly did all they could to complete the deal, even though league observers said it would benefit Seattle more right now because Pippen is so superior in ability to Kemp.


Kemp is regarded as primarily a Western Conference open-court player who fares badly in half-court play because he has no post-up game and doesn't like physical play-something of a Dominique Wilkins with less overall ability at power forward. But in the right system, the feeling is his game could still develop because he is only 24.

So Pippen was considered better, although Kemp was viewed as a flawed but talented player who could grow in the right situation. https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1994-07-01-9407010179-story.html

More in the next post...

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is how Seattle coach George Karl saw it:


The Chicago GM, who’d visited me in Spain, had a proposal: Kemp, Pierce, and our number one for Scottie Pippen. Pippen was the best small forward, or 3, in the league. Nothing he wasn’t good at. During one of Michael’s retirements, Scottie led his team in all five of the main categories—rebounds, scoring, blocks, steals, and assists—so rare that it had only happened once before in NBA history (Dave Cowens, for the Celtics, in 1977-78). But with his running buddy MJ now a baseball player, maybe Pippen was a little disconnected. When I tried to imagine the Sonics without Shawn I knew I’d miss him, but I got pretty excited picturing Gary and Scottie teaming up on a trap; they’d smother opposing guards. But every trade prompts a debate. I was in favor of this one but I wasn’t sure.

So I called Michael. We talked about minor-league baseball, North Carolina basketball, and golf. Then we talked about the big deal on the table. Should we do this?

“Do it,” he said. “Scottie can make your other players better. Kemp can’t.”

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2016/12/28/george-karl-michael-jordan-endorsed-scottie-pippen-to-sonics-trade/

More on Jordan's advice and view from the Tribune article:


Sources close to Karl said the Seattle coach, who was a player at North Carolina and a frequent golfing partner of Jordan, spent much of the last several days consulting with friends and associates about the deal and that Jordan told him, "You'll be getting the best of it." He said he thought the deal would assure Seattle a championship next season.

[DoctorP]

For sure Seattle wins that trade. Jordan knows whats up.

[PoutinPippin]

MJ should've let them pull the trigger for T-Mac, after how pathetic Scottie acted yet again in 1998.

[Roundball_Rock]

For sure Seattle wins that trade. Jordan knows whats up.

It is pretty obvious but we have all these people (consistently with the same agenda in common) trying to revise history and claim Kemp=Pippen. :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

For sure Seattle wins that trade. Jordan knows whats up.

Not really. Kemp was better than Pippen when they faced the Bulls in the Finals in '96. It doesn't change anything for Seattle but the Bulls would have still won 3 rings. Kemp outplayed Hakeem & Malone in that Playoff run as well.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kemp was better than Pippen when they faced the Bulls in the Finals in '96

Yeah, because Pippen was hurt. It also isn't wise to make a mountain over a small sample size of 6 games, especially when it happens to be the career highlight for a given player.


It doesn't change anything for Seattle but the Bulls would have still won 3 rings

Bulls would have 0. Jordan doesn't come back without Pippen there. As for Kemp, we saw Kemp as the franchise player in Cleveland and the results were one 47 win season (first round loss) and two lottery seasons. Pippen in that scenario became a MVP candidate. Kemp did not.


Kemp outplayed Hakeem & Malone in that Playoff run as well.

Hakeem was a center so different positions but let's compare.

Kemp 20/10/1 on 69% with 1 steal and 1 block.
Malone 27/12/5 on 48% with 2 steals.
Game scores: Malone 20.9, Kemp 16.2

Kemp 22/14/2 on 50% with 2 blocks.
Hakeem 18/10/4 on 48% with 2 blocks.
Game scores: Kemp 16.9, Hakeem 14.0

So Kemp did better than Hakeem but they play different positions and neither was the best player on his team in the series so not sure how great a data point this is for Kemp.

[ImKobe]

Yeah, because Pippen was hurt. It also isn't wise to make a mountain over a small sample size of 6 games, especially when it happens to be the career highlight for a given player.



Bulls would have 0. Jordan doesn't come back without Pippen there. As for Kemp, we saw Kemp as the franchise player in Cleveland and the results were one 47 win season (first round loss) and two lottery seasons. Pippen in that scenario became a MVP candidate. Kemp did not.



Hakeem was a center so different positions but let's compare.

Kemp 20/10/1 on 69% with 1 steal and 1 block.
Malone 27/12/5 on 48% with 2 steals.
Game scores: Malone 20.9, Kemp 16.2

Kemp 22/14/2 on 50% with 2 blocks.
Hakeem 18/10/4 on 48% with 2 blocks.
Game scores: Kemp 16.9, Hakeem 14.0

So Kemp did better than Hakeem but they play different positions and neither was the best player on his team in the series so not sure how great a data point this is for Kemp.

Hakeem got swept with Kemp putting up 32/15 & 3 blocks @HOU to finish the series.

Kemp was the best player on the court in a do-or-die Game 7 of the WCF.

Kemp was superior that post-season. 21/10 57%FG with 1.2 stls 2 blocks for a Finals runs, he was arguably as good as GP that year. He led the team in scoring, rebounding & winshares in both RS/Playoffs.

[Roundball_Rock]

He was good but you can inflate anyone if you cherry pick games or his very best playoff run. Where was Kemp when Seattle was getting bounced in the first round the previous 2 years against in big chokes?

[Phoenix]

If Kemp is there Jordan doesn't likely return. And if Jordan still returns with Kemp there, then Rodman doesn't come onboard. In this alternative reality the Bulls don't get a 3peat.

[Roundball_Rock]

If Kemp is there Jordan doesn't likely return. And if Jordan still returns with Kemp there, then Rodman doesn't come onboard. In this alternative reality the Bulls don't get a 3peat.

According to MJ he wouldn't have returned if Pippen had been traded. Good point, even if he changed his mind later in that alternate universe there is never a Rodman.

The Kemp hype is odd to me (probably purely agenda driven). We saw the scenario with him as a franchise player and the results were poor. In that era you could construct a contender around him (Indiana did it around Miller for example) but it would be difficult. Pippen was a top 5 player so it would be easier to have a team contend with him.

[Phoenix]

According to MJ he wouldn't have returned if Pippen had been traded. Good point, even if he changed his mind later in that alternate universe there is never a Rodman.

The Kemp hype is odd to me (probably purely agenda driven). We saw the scenario with him as a franchise player and the results were poor. In that era you could construct a contender around him (Indiana did it around Miller for example) but it would be difficult. Pippen was a top 5 player so it would be easier to have a team contend with him.

Kemp peaked in that 96 season and finals. I don't even remember the 97 season but I feel like he was never quite that good again and we all know what happened after the lockout. MJ and Kemp in 96 would have made for a good duo but I feel like chemistry gets overlooked in some of these hypotheticals ( not referring to you, just a general statement) when we swap player A for B.

[Roundball_Rock]

Agree that he peaked then (itself a problem because he didn't improve as he hit his peak years) but he remained good in Seattle for another year and then in Cleveland for a while. He was 21/9 in 99' in Cleveland and still 18/9 as late as 00'. Then the wheels came off. Here are his numbers in Seattle from when he became an all-star (fourth season) to what he did in Cleveland:

SEA Kemp (93'-97'): 19/11/2 on 53%
CLE Kemp (98'-00'): 19/9/2 on 44%

So his efficiency plummeted but that is to be expected since he went from the #2 option on a team with four solid scorers on a contender to a situation where he became the #1 option on an average to bad team. The rest of his line stayed basically the same.

He was a bit overrated because he was exciting but was he ever in the conversation for being the best player at his position? No.

[Akeem34TheDream]

MJ should've let them pull the trigger for T-Mac, after how pathetic Scottie acted yet again in 1998.

Hahahaha this dude just doesn't stop.

[Roundball_Rock]

Hahahaha this dude just doesn't stop.

That is another alt for Samurai Swish/Money Mitch 23/Money 23. :oldlol:

[BigShotBob]

MJ and Kemp is a 3-peat at the very least.

MJ would torch Pippen, and you think that Pippen would score on MJ? :oldlol:

Meanwhile Kemp would eviscerate Detlef Schrempf

Edit: Scratch that. Seattle wouldn't even make the finals with Pippen in place of Kemp

[Roundball_Rock]

Sources close to Karl said the Seattle coach, who was a player at North Carolina and a frequent golfing partner of Jordan, spent much of the last several days consulting with friends and associates about the deal and that Jordan told him, "You'll be getting the best of it." He said he thought the deal would assure Seattle a championship next season.

Only his insecure stans are hyping Kemp 25 years later.

[BigShotBob]

Only his insecure stans are hyping Kemp 25 years later.

Nope it's over for Seattle

[Roundball_Rock]

I meant MJ stans. For some reason there is this big push on their part to elevate Kemp and Irving of late. Irving is understandable but the Kemp boomlet is odd.

[Whoah10115]

Well if Jordan told Karl to make the move, then either he'd be willing to come back with Kemp, or he wasn't beginning to consider coming back again. That would be presumptuous, on our part.

Seattle improves, tho they get smaller, as Schrempf now plays the 4.

Also a leap to assume what would happen with the Bulls. Would they pursue Romdan and go small with Kemp at the 5? Nope. Would they to big with Rodman back at the 3? Doubt it. But likely that Pierce is now their 6th man scorer and Kukoc goes into the staring lineup.

No idea what would happen. Point of this thread should be to point out reality of trade, and to point out values.

The rest is trolling to combat trolling.

[Roundball_Rock]

Well if Jordan told Karl to make the move, then either he'd be willing to come back with Kemp, or he wasn't beginning to consider coming back again. That would be presumptuous, on our pa

We know it because MJ made a statement to that effect, that he would not have returned to play if Pippen was traded. That is "trolling"? :biggums:


Also a leap to assume what would happen with the Bulls

The purpose was to rebuild so the Bulls weren't assuming they would be contending immediately with Kemp (we have people claiming they would have been better with Kemp). Most likely they do what they did when they built around Jordan: gradually retool the roster each year and hope they could contend a few years down the road, which would coincide with Kemp's theoretical peak years.

Who knows what actually would have happened be the intent of both teams was clear, as is that one player was considered to be the superior player. The revisionism today is to claim Kemp=Pippen.

[Smoke117]

Not really. Kemp was better than Pippen when they faced the Bulls in the Finals in '96. It doesn't change anything for Seattle but the Bulls would have still won 3 rings. Kemp outplayed Hakeem & Malone in that Playoff run as well.

Pippen was also dealing with multiple injuries and was STILL the best defensive player in a defensive series. Game for game Pippen was clearly a much better and more impactful player. Anyone who thinks different is an idiot...or, well, a kobe stan. Kemp has one better offensive series so that makes him the better play? Can you really be this fukking stupid? The Sonics are clearly better with Pippen than they are with Kemp. Pippen does whatever Kemp does and far more with his playmaking and defense.

[Roundball_Rock]

Notice they never talk defense? :oldlol:

[Whoah10115]

Well if Jordan told Karl to make the move, then either he'd be willing to come back with Kemp, or he wasn't beginning to consider coming back again. That would be presumptuous, on our part.

Seattle improves, tho they get smaller, as Schrempf now plays the 4.

Also a leap to assume what would happen with the Bulls. Would they pursue Romdan and go small with Kemp at the 5? Nope. Would they to big with Rodman back at the 3? Doubt it. But likely that Pierce is now their 6th man scorer and Kukoc goes into the staring lineup.

No idea what would happen. Point of this thread should be to point out reality of trade, and to point out values.

The rest is trolling to combat trolling.


I do not believe that in the beginning of that season Michael is setting himself up to stay retired. So unless he's also talking to Krause and Reinsdorf and saying "Don't trade him because I'm coming back"-which I doubt he did- then I have a hard time believing he's telling Karl to trade for Pippen and accepting right there and then that he won't come back to play.

Quote doesn't matter to me in that context. For me it's impossible that he committed BEFORE the season to either telling the Bulls he was coming back and to therefore not trade Pippen, or that he would tell another coach to trade for Pippen, when a team without Pippen means he never comes out of retirement. That's a leap.

[Roundball_Rock]

That he told Karl to make the trade (because it would give Seattle the championship) was confirmed both at the time (1994) and years later in Karl's book.

[Whoah10115]

That he told Karl to make the trade (because it would give Seattle the championship) was confirmed both at the time (1994) and years later in Karl's book.

Which is why it's a leap, quote or not, to think he would not come back without Pippen.

He says "Yeah, you gotta trade for Pip".

Then, knowing Chicago would obviously not just trade him (MJ) to Seattle, and not wanting to play anywhere else anyway, just accepts in September or October that he will never play basketball again.

[Roundball_Rock]

The timing is key. The trade was in the summer of 94' when MJ was committed to baseball. He retired three times. He obviously had a fickle mind.