Kyrie Irving Compared to 2010's Era Point Guards (2012-2020)

[Roundball_Rock]

There has been a lot of talk about him lately so let's put him in the context of his era. This isn't a career versus career comparison but rather a comparison of what these players did since Kyrie came into the NBA.

Statistical Comparison (2012-2020)

Irving 22/4/6
Walker 20/4/5
Curry 25/5/7
Lillard 24/4/7
Westbrook 25/8/9
Wall 19/4/9
Lowry 17/5/7
Paul 18/5/9
Parker 14/2/5

I didn't rank numbers so different stats have different weights but Kyrie would have to be on the low end of this group when you factor in a few of the players he beats in scoring outpace him in assists and rebounds.

VORP

Paul 47.0
Curry 46.1
Westbrook 44.8
Lillard 36.9 (2013-2020)
Lowry 32.4
Irving 29.2
Walker 27.5
Wall 22.8
Parker 7.6

It is striking how Kyrie is so far behind the top tier. Even Lillard trounces him despite Irving having a one year head start.

All-NBA since 2012 (first team in parentheses)

Westbrook 7 (2)
Curry 6 (3)
Paul 5 (3)
Lillard 4 (1)
Parker 3 (0)
Irving 2 (0)
Walker 1 (0)
Wall 1 (0)
Lowry 1 (0)

This probably is the most telling thing about how he is perceived compared to other point guards from the era. Even Tony Parker who had only a few quality seasons in this decade has more all-NBA appearances.

Top 5 MVP Finishes since 2012 (Highest finish in Parentheses)

Westbrook 4 (1 MVP)
Curry 3 (2 MVPs)
Paul 2 (3rd)
Lillard 1 (4th)
Parker 1 (5th)
Wall 0 (7th)
Lowry 0 (10th)
Irving 0 (0 career MVP votes)
Walker 0 (0 career MVP votes)

Only he and Walker have failed to get any MVP votes and Walker likely will get some in 2020 because of what he did to repair the damage done by Kyrie in Boston.

[tpols]

Kyrie's clearly better than everybody but curry and paul.

With the caveat, he could blow either up H2H at anytime.

[Mamba4Life]

Kyrie's clearly better than everybody but curry and paul.

With the caveat, he could blow either up H2H at anytime.


How many PGs can you replace Kyrie with and the Celtics still win at least 49 games in 2019?

Answer: at least 15-20

[RRR3]

Kyrie's clearly better than everybody but curry and paul.

With the caveat, he could blow either up H2H at anytime.
Zero case over Lillard or prime WB.

Ttrolls at it again.

Many people considered Wall better in 2017 as well before his career got derailed.

He also has a lot less success than Lowry does in terms of being the best player on a team.

[Smoke117]

Kyrie's clearly better than everybody but curry and paul.

With the caveat, he could blow either up H2H at anytime.

There is absolutely no argument to be made for him to be "clearly better" than Westbrook or Lillard. Kyrie would never have taken the Thunder to the playoffs after Durant left. Lillard and him are basically on the same tier. You could replace them with each other and the success would probably mirror. Kyrie basically lives off of one series while not being that high if an impact player, regardless. This is mostly due to people hating LeBron so they raise Kyrie on a pedestal. Nobody would even care about Kyrie if he never played with LeBron. He'd just be Damian Lillard. LeBron is the reason why he is even talked about so much. The fact that his body is so fragile and he's always injured also doesn't help his case. Missed the 2017 finals, the 2018 playoffs, and now basically most of the 2020 year.

[tpols]

Lilliard is a poor man's chef. He has nowhere near Kyrie's ceiling as a player because he lacks the comparative midrange and finishing ability.

Westbrook simply isnt good at basketball. an easy eye test confirmed it early on, but how he played in the playoffs after durant left drove a nail through that coffin.

[RRR3]

Lilliard is a poor man's chef. He has nowhere near Kyrie's ceiling as a player because he lacks the comparative midrange and finishing ability.

Westbrook simply isnt good at basketball. an easy eye test confirmed it early on, but how he played in the playoffs after durant left drove a nail through that coffin.
Posts like this are why no one takes you seriously.

[RRR3]

There is absolutely no argument to be made for him to be "clearly better" than Westbrook or Lillard. Kyrie would never have taken the Thunder to the playoffs after Durant left. Lillard and him are basically on the same tier. You could replace them with each other and the success would probably mirror. Kyrie basically lives off of one series while not being that high if an impact player, regardless. This is mostly due to people hating LeBron so they raise Kyrie on a pedestal. Nobody would even care about Kyrie if he never played with LeBron. He'd just be Damian Lillard. LeBron is the reason why he is even talked about so much. The fact that his body is so fragile and he's always injured also doesn't help his case. Missed the 2017 finals, the 2018 playoffs, and now basically most of the 2020 year.
There's actually quite a bit of evidence that suggests Lillard has significantly higher impact.

[Mamba4Life]

Lilliard is a poor man's chef. He has nowhere near Kyrie's ceiling as a player because he lacks the comparative midrange and finishing ability.

Westbrook simply isnt good at basketball. an easy eye test confirmed it early on, but how he played in the playoffs after durant left drove a nail through that coffin.

How many PGs win at least as many games as Kyrie did last season and so far this season? 15? 20? More?

[Smoke117]

Posts like this are why no one takes you seriously.

Pretty much. He just said a whole bunch of nothing in two long sentences.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kyrie's clearly better than everybody but curry and paul.

Remember when Boston replaced the great Kyrie with Terry Rozier and Kemba Walker and won more? Or when Brooklyn replaced Kyrie with Dinwiddie and won more?

Yet he is better than Lillard, Westbrook, and others?

[warriorfan]

Lilliard is a poor man's chef. He has nowhere near Kyrie's ceiling as a player because he lacks the comparative midrange and finishing ability.

Westbrook simply isnt good at basketball. an easy eye test confirmed it early on, but how he played in the playoffs after durant left drove a nail through that coffin.

They don’t win in 2016 with Westbrook in place of Kyrie for sure. Even with Lillard I don’t think so. Kyrie is definitely one of those guys where stats don’t quantify the entire picture.

[RRR3]

KBlaze has annihilated tpols multiple times and proven how he simply ranks players based on shit like handles and midrange ability while completely ignoring defense and arguing that players who rely heavily on their athleticism are somehow not good at basketball, even if they win MVPs. Giannis was in the middle of one of the best seasons of ALL TIME, but ttrolls continues to insist that he somehow isn't good at basketball.

[Mamba4Life]

They don’t win in 2016 with Westbrook in place of Kyrie for sure. Even with Lillard I don’t think so. Kyrie is definitely one of those guys where stats don’t quantify the entire picture.


What is Kyrie better than Lillard at ash boy?

[tpols]

Remember when Boston replaced the great Kyrie with Terry Rozier and Kemba Walker and won more? Or when Brooklyn replaced Kyrie with Dinwiddie and won more?

Yet he is better than Lillard, Westbrook, and others?

Boston only look like a juggernaut that first half of a season after gordon hayward snapped his leg and kyrie was in the MVP running.

Terry Rozier completely flamed out in the playoffs ending series. Like john starks bombed out of them.

Dame is nice, but hes not Kyrie nice. He faced the dubs too and didnt do shit on the level of irving. Westbrook is a negative impact player to any good team. Hes not good at basketball.

[RRR3]

Boston only look like a juggernaut that first half of a season after gordon hayward snapped his leg and kyrie was in the MVP running.

Terry Rozier completely flamed out in the playoffs ending series. Like john starks bombed out of them.

Dame is nice, but hes not Kyrie nice. He faced the dubs too and didnt do shit on the level of irving. Westbrook is a negative impact player to any good team. Hes not good at basketball.
It's almost like Kyrie had prime LeBron James and Dame had C.J. McCollum :oldlol: Or are you going to tell us McCollum>LeBron? Honestly, that would be a less insane take than saying Giannis and Westbrook are bad at basketball.


Also interesting to criticize Rozier for "flaming out" in the ECF when Kyrie completely pooped his pants in the second round the very next year. With Hayward, in fact.

[warriorfan]

What is Kyrie better than Lillard at ash boy?

Finishing around the rim especially in heavy traffic.

[tpols]

The warriors didnt treat dame any different from kyrie.

Dame and kyrie were both mostly guarded by klay 1v1.

You are exposing yourself mate. :lol

[RRR3]

The warriors didnt treat dame any different from kyrie.

Dame and kyrie were both mostly guarded by klay 1v1.

You are exposing yourself mate. :lol
Career 21.3 PPG on 38.5% in the playoffs without papa LeBron to save him. :yaohappy:

[Whoah10115]

Better than Wall. He ain't better than anyone else.

Even bouncing around, Lowry always had some impact. Got to Toronto and was always ahead of DeRozan despite scoring, and led that team to the playoffs. Then, with Kawhi, led them to a title. Then, after Leonard, continued getting better (is he 34?) and look at them.

Kyrie has the highs because the talent is so high, and he certainly did great in a lot of big series with LeBron, but while Kyrie could go off he didn't get other players off the way Lowry did. With LeBron, it was a talent run and in one case Golden State obviously blew it. But there's no way that he had a better decade than Kyle Lowry, because Lowry is a legitimate all-star every year. Kyrie is a legitimate superstar in stretches and in series, but over the course of seasons he isn't a great player the way Lowry consistently is. And since leaving LeBron, Kyrie hasn't taken the extra step..not until he skipped one and fell down.

Lowry is maybe better than ever.

[RRR3]

Better than Wall. He ain't better than anyone else.

Even bouncing around, Lowry always had some impact. Got to Toronto and was always ahead of DeRozan despite scoring, and led that team to the playoffs. Then, with Kawhi, led them to a title. Then, after Leonard, continued getting better (is he 34?) and look at them.

Kyrie has the highs because the talent is so high, and he certainly did great in a lot of big series with LeBron, but while Kyrie could go off he didn't get other players off the way Lowry did. With LeBron, it was a talent run and in one case Golden State obviously blew it. But there's no way that he had a better decade than Kyle Lowry, because Lowry is a legitimate all-star every year. Kyrie is a legitimate superstar in stretches and in series, but over the course of seasons he isn't a great player the way Lowry consistently is. And since leaving LeBron, Kyrie hasn't taken the extra step..not until he skipped one and fell down.

Lowry is maybe better than ever.
Incoming ttrolls meltdown about how Lowry isn't "good at basketball"

[Whoah10115]

There is absolutely no argument to be made for him to be "clearly better" than Westbrook or Lillard. Kyrie would never have taken the Thunder to the playoffs after Durant left. Lillard and him are basically on the same tier. You could replace them with each other and the success would probably mirror. Kyrie basically lives off of one series while not being that high if an impact player, regardless. This is mostly due to people hating LeBron so they raise Kyrie on a pedestal. Nobody would even care about Kyrie if he never played with LeBron. He'd just be Damian Lillard. LeBron is the reason why he is even talked about so much. The fact that his body is so fragile and he's always injured also doesn't help his case. Missed the 2017 finals, the 2018 playoffs, and now basically most of the 2020 year.


LoL. Westbrook isn't as good as Lillard, and you wanna say Kyrie is? Westbrook would do with Portland what Lillard does? Not in a dream of dreams.

Lillard put it down on him last season. Lillard outplayed him. Because Lillard is a better player.

[tpols]

Incoming ttrolls meltdown about how Lowry isn't "good at basketball"

anybody that takes lowry over kyrie after the trash bros playoff era deserves to have their opinion scrapped lol.

Even in this years all star game, we saw how bad lowry was at creating his own shot in the halfcourt.

[RRR3]

anybody that takes lowry over kyrie after the trash bros playoff era deserves to have their opinion scrapped lol.

Even in this years all star game, we saw how bad lowry was at creating his own shot in the halfcourt.
IDK Kyrie was pretty "trash bro"-esque the one time we saw him in the playoffs without LeSensei to guide him.

[Whoah10115]

anybody that takes lowry over kyrie after the trash bros playoff era deserves to have their opinion scrapped lol.

Even in this years all star game, we saw how bad lowry was at creating his own shot in the halfcourt.


You're right. Lowry can't win all-star games the way Kyrie can.

[RRR3]

You're right. Lowry can't win all-star games the way Kyrie can.
:roll:

[MrFonzworth]

anybody that takes lowry over kyrie after the trash bros playoff era deserves to have their opinion scrapped lol.

Even in this years all star game, we saw how bad lowry was at creating his own shot in the halfcourt.

This. Lowry has become severely overrated.

[Roundball_Rock]

Boston made it to Game 7 of the ECF without Kyrie; with him they lost in 5 games of the second round.


It's almost like Kyrie had prime LeBron James and Dame had C.J. McCollum

Kyrie has done little away from LeBron, other than be a cancer in two different cities.


Also interesting to criticize Rozier for "flaming out" in the ECF when Kyrie completely pooped his pants in the second round the very next year

20/4/6 on only 36%. Ouch. He had only the 6th highest game score in the series despite getting similar usage to Giannis.

[warriorfan]

Lowry always has very good advanced stats. He plays big for his position, he is a good defender and tough player. His main issue is he can struggle when his 3’s arnt dropping and he has had a few disappointments in the playoffs in the past. 2016 Lowry in place of Kyrie I’m going to say no championship.

[tpols]

IDK Kyrie was pretty "trash bro"-esque the one time we saw him in the playoffs without LeSensei to guide him.

by early as 2014, Kyrie was an MVP candidate on FIBA world champion USA team loaded with talent including Durant, curry, harden, anthony davis etc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n__pIkbZgkc

[Mamba4Life]

Funny how Pippen was easily the best SF of his generation, but Kyrie is barely a Top 10 PG in his era :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Funny how Pippen was easily the best SF of his generation, but Kyrie is barely a Top 10 PG in his era :oldlol:

3ball avoiding this thread like the plague. :roll:

[LAmbruh]

everyone taking a massive dump on Tpols face just the way he likes it :oldlol:

[CTbasketball92]

Kyrie has played in three very different offensive systems dating back to 2016-2017.

Over that time, he's averaged 24.8/6/4 on 48/40/89 splits with a 30 usage rate. His True Shooting percentage has been just shy of 60. He's only averaging 2.5 turnovers a game.

His average ws/48 has been .196, his average TS% has been 59.3% and his average BPM has been 5.9.

I don't have time to compare these numbers to anyone elses and I know he's been injury prone, but this is all a ridiculous example of all around scoring ability and solid playmaking. Think about it: a lot of players need to be in ceratin systems to thrive, but Kyrie simply doesn't because he's so well-rounded. He can play off ball and be a situational ISO specialist and knockdown off ball shooting threat (Cavs) or he can be in a Spurs-esque offense playing more of a faciliator role and dialing down his attempts in P&R and ISO (Celtics, especially second year when they had a top 10 offense) or in a smaller sample size, he can run P&R heavy and put up 27/6 on 60 TS% in a Dntoni-esque offense without as much spacing and while learning on the fly. This scalability means he's one of the most portable stars in the whole league. Put him on the 76ers theyd be way better. Put him on the spurs, put him on the lakers, put him on Utah instead of Donovan Mitchell, etc. No matter what, he'll get you 25/6 a game on elite efficiency without turning the ball over or compromising the defense. That's very rare, and that's why he's a top 12ish player. If it weren't for injuries he would have made three or four all-nba teams by now, specifically in 2017-2018 and most likely this year.


And no matter what, he's proven more in the playoffs than most others outside the top 5 players have. Paul George and Dame on their best day could do what Kyrie did in 2016 and 2017 playoffs for sure, but they can't be the No. 1 anymore than Kyrie can.

The only guards I'd say have been better are Steph (obviously), 2014-2017 Westbrook (he was nasty) and 2018-2020 Dame (it's close though). Lowry is great, kemba is good, Wall was good, but I'll take Kyrie's scoring/versatile offensive skillset and scalability over every one else. And he's been around but is only 28. If he can be healthy for a few seasons and avoid injuries to his joints and ligaments (which he has done to date) he will make a few more All-NBA 2nd team/possibly first team runs and go crazy in the playoffs before making the hall of fame.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kyrie has played in three very different offensive systems dating back to 2016-2017.

Over that time, he's averaged 24.8/6/4 on 48/40/89 splits with a 30 usage rate. His True Shooting percentage has been just shy of 60. He's only averaging 2.5 turnovers a game.

His average ws/48 has been .196, his average TS% has been 59.3% and his average BPM has been 5.9.

The issue isn't his stats. The issue is that he appears to get his stats at the expense of his teammates and to such an extent that it damages the overall team. As soon as Kyrie gets hurt or leaves all his teammates' production skyrockets. That is pretty damning.

[CTbasketball92]

The issue isn't his stats. The issue is that he appears to get his stats at the expense of his teammates and to such an extent that it damages the overall team. As soon as Kyrie gets hurt or leaves all his teammates' production skyrockets. That is pretty damning.


I don't really think it's as wild as people say. If you take more shots you're going to score more points, but the people he plays with usually score at the rate they would if he weren't there. Dinwiddie got 20/6 while playing with Kyrie and he can't shoot. That's good for a second option, he got all the shots you can expect him to get-probably even more. The issue with Jayson Tatum wasn't Kyrie, it was Marcus Morris and Gordon Hayward eating up his shot attemps along with Jaylen Brown. I think he averaged 16 a game on a bit below league average efficiency. As a fourth or fifth option, that's not bad. He's scoring fairly well now, but that's with taking a lot of shots with Marcus Morris gone and Kemba being a lesser offensive talent than Kyrie. It makes sense. He's getting 24 a game on 56 TS%. But that;s still worse than what Kyrie was doing, so it doesn't justify him taking more shots.

He doesn't dominate the ball anymore than Damian Lillard or Harden or Westbrook or CP3, but that's stuck to him somehow because he's a great ISO player who does fancy dribbling. If he were really a gunner and played like prime Melo or Kobe, he'd average like 30 ppg pretty easily

[RRR3]

everyone taking a massive dump on Tpols face just the way he likes it :oldlol:
Poor fella has resorted to FIBA highlights now :oldlol:

By that logic Melo should be ranked very highly on the GOAT list.

[ImKobe]

Irving's easily top 5 at his position in the golden age of point guards, and he's only at the 4-5 range due to injuries. Him, Dame and Curry are the 3 best scoring point guards all-time.

[Roundball_Rock]

What people notice is the dramatic extent of the rises and falls, both statistically and on the eye test. There is no other active player who has this trend going against him.

[CTbasketball92]

What people notice is the dramatic extent of the rises and falls, both statistically and on the eye test. There is no other active player who has this trend going against him.

He won a championship in a role that was no less important than Klay Thompson or Scottie Pippen's role based on advanced stats and counting numbers. His first year in Boston he won 55 games and they had a winning record with him in the lineups. He made it to the second round of the playoffs his second year in Boston where they lost against a much better team and the MVP. stats say he's played at an all-nba level every healthy year since 2014-2015. He went to three straight finals as a No. 2 option. People want to use the not making the playoffs argument against him and ignore the circumstances of that but they want to pay attention to all the circumstances when he won a chip, was on all these winning teams, leads a playoff team for two years, gets past the first round, you get the idea.

People are just kinda hating. He's been very, very successful in a variety of roles. Really, I think his locker room issues (bad) and his injuries (also bad) have held him back, but what he does on the court easily makes him an elite point guard, and the last three years you'd have to say he's top three when available.

[Roundball_Rock]

His first year in Boston he won 55 games and they had a winning record with him in the lineup

They won 53 the previous year.


He made it to the second round of the playoffs his second year in Boston

They made it to Game 7 of the ECF with IT in his place, though, the year before.


stats say he's played at an all-nba level every healthy year since 2014-2015

He has 2 all-NBA seasons in 9 years. "Healthy"? He never is. His career high is 75 games and he went down in the finals that year.

He doesn't get credit for "leading" anything because his teams keep doing better without him, both when he is hurt or when he leaves (in Boston's case).

He gets hate because he is being portrayed as this top 20-30 all-time level player (by fans of a retired 90's player) when his own teams do better with Rozier or Dinwiddie.

[Whoah10115]

When 3ball doesn't show up, people show up laughing at him.

Then he shows up and it just gets endless.

Kettles and pots.

[CTbasketball92]

They won 53 the previous year.



They made it to Game 7 of the ECF with IT in his place, though, the year before.



He has 2 all-NBA seasons in 9 years. "Healthy"? He never is. His career high is 75 games and he went down in the finals that year.

He doesn't get credit for "leading" anything because his teams keep doing better without him, both when he is hurt or when he leaves (in Boston's case).

He gets hate because he is being portrayed as this top 20-30 all-time level player (by fans of a retired 90's player) when his own teams do better with Rozier or Dinwiddie.

All that I'm really saying is people said he couldn't be a winning player. Then he wins a championship. People used his lack of success on a bad team when he was 19-21 years old to say that he couldn't be a No. 1 option on a playoff team. No matter what you feel about what happened before and after he was there, he was the No. 1 option on the Celtics, which were a playoff team. He was a major reason why they were really successful, the offense was better with him on the floor both years, etc. He's proven that he's a solid No. 1 option for a playoff team, and that he's at the very least a very good No. 2 option for a championship team, a team that could beat a historically great team that also beat KD and Westbrook at their peak I might add. The chip and his success with LeBron is no small thing, but people want to be gloss over it but it's disingenuous.

Those teams were not better with Diniwwide and Rozier. With the Nets 20 games is too small of a sample size, especially for someone on a new team. DWade and LeBron underachieved by a lot their first year but that obviously wasn't the end of the story. Rozier was awful his last year on the Celtics.


Lol no reputable person says he's a top 20-30 all-time player.

Either way, all of this is silly. There are two things against him: his health and his lack of leadership. It's clear by the numbers I posted that he's played at an all-nba level for years now. 2014-2015 he made it, 2015-2016 he was injured, 2016-2017 it was close, 2017-2018 he was injured but clearly a top 15 player in the league, 2018-2019 his first full healthy year since 2017, he made All-NBA second team. This year his numbers were crazy and he was probably on his way to another All-NBA team.

In terms of accomplishments he's reached the pinnacle of the league by winning a chip, and he averaged 27/4/4 on 47/44/90 splits while outplaying the unanimous MVP. You could say hes more responsible for any single championship than Scottie Pippen was for any of his chips. Winning a chip as a second option is the best that anyone outside of Kawhi, LeBron, Luka, Curry, Jokic or Harden could hope for (Ie, the back end of the top 10 to 15 players in the NBA) and even then, most of them have never shown up in that way.

Say what you want, but the numbers and the accomplishments can't be ignored. Let's see other guards step up to that level and get a chip while playing such a big role.

[AlternativeAcc.]

everyone taking a massive dump on Tpols face just the way he likes it :oldlol:
:roll:

2nd nature to him

[warriorfan]

All that I'm really saying is people said he couldn't be a winning player. Then he wins a championship. People used his lack of success on a bad team when he was 19-21 years old to say that he couldn't be a No. 1 option on a playoff team. No matter what you feel about what happened before and after he was there, he was the No. 1 option on the Celtics, which were a playoff team. He was a major reason why they were really successful, the offense was better with him on the floor both years, etc. He's proven that he's a solid No. 1 option for a playoff team, and that he's at the very least a very good No. 2 option for a championship team, a team that could beat a historically great team that also beat KD and Westbrook at their peak I might add. The chip and his success with LeBron is no small thing, but people want to be gloss over it but it's disingenuous.

Those teams were not better with Diniwwide and Rozier. With the Nets 20 games is too small of a sample size, especially for someone on a new team. DWade and LeBron underachieved by a lot their first year but that obviously wasn't the end of the story. Rozier was awful his last year on the Celtics.


Lol no reputable person says he's a top 20-30 all-time player.

Either way, all of this is silly. There are two things against him: his health and his lack of leadership. It's clear by the numbers I posted that he's played at an all-nba level for years now. 2014-2015 he made it, 2015-2016 he was injured, 2016-2017 it was close, 2017-2018 he was injured but clearly a top 15 player in the league, 2018-2019 his first full healthy year since 2017, he made All-NBA second team. This year his numbers were crazy and he was probably on his way to another All-NBA team.

In terms of accomplishments he's reached the pinnacle of the league by winning a chip, and he averaged 27/4/4 on 47/44/90 splits while outplaying the unanimous MVP. You could say hes more responsible for any single championship than Scottie Pippen was for any of his chips. Winning a chip as a second option is the best that anyone outside of Kawhi, LeBron, Luka, Curry, Jokic or Harden could hope for (Ie, the back end of the top 10 to 15 players in the NBA) and even then, most of them have never shown up in that way.

Say what you want, but the numbers and the accomplishments can't be ignored. Let's see other guards step up to that level and get a chip while playing such a big role.

https://d.wattpad.com/story_parts/732562194/images/15a38b6c6725a8fe403947022192.gif