My "narratives" on Pippen (facts) have proven true in the doc (video inside)

[3ball]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WsNKAliZA60&t=05m37s


so 3ball was right about Pippen - but it's not about being right - i was reciting historical fact - Pippen was always a weak link that "wasn't even thought about" by the defense, where teams would simply "make sure he had no confidence"... Only chumps are talked about that way

MJ won 6 rings with this low-producing, low character bum... :bowdown:... And the goat politician to praise Pippen earlier in the doc, knowing it was just political talk and Pippen's own actions would bury him later... And it ain't gonna get better - Pippen was last in clutch-time points in the 97' and 98 Playoffs and Finals

And let's face it - MJ and this doc has given everyone the will to resume the season and quest for Lebron's 4th ring.. btw, I'm only rubbing it in because of all the grief I take about Pippen, as if I'm the one wrong when it's you guys

[HoopsNY]

His production wasn't always low in the finals. Furthermore, you can't ignore his rebounding in big games or his defensive presence. Why do you keep trolling the forum with this kind of rhetoric?

[Roundball_Rock]

You sound like DR crowing about being vindicated by propaganda.

[LeCroix]

The bomb goes boom

The MJ vs LBJ comparison feels like 2016 when LBJ led all players in all major statistical categories. Only this time he's doing it against Jordan :eek:

LeBron shoots a better percentage from 2
LeBron shoots a better percentage from 3
He has a higher FG%, eFG%, and TS% (NOT a typo)
He has a better AST%, TRB%, BPG%, and a lower USG%

MJ scores more points, but also has a higher USG% and a higher FT%

With advanced metrics, both in the regular season and playoffs, it gets even worse for Jordan:

https://i.postimg.cc/52mBwW6h/LBJ-vs-MJ-complete.png

LeBron leads MJ in: Win Shares, TS%, TRB%, AST%, BLK%, OWS, DWS, OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP

MJ leads in: FT%, and STL%

LeBron also has slightly more turnovers, but a better assist-to-turnover ratio, so boom roasted there too:

https://i.postimg.cc/dtxCbRZN/a2toratio.png

It's just not. even. close. And some have been fooled for a long time, but not I.

https://i.postimg.cc/0jKSQL7M/LeBron_1st.png

Can we please stop thinking Jordan is better now? LeBron crushes him in almost every category and if you look at total playoff stats it's a LANDSLIDE victory, with nearly 1000 more points and double the rebounds.[/QUOTE]

[LeCroix]

you reallly downgrade your savior?

the guy that saved a 1-9 career loser ??

https://i.postimg.cc/wBLQqPp4/AlongCameScottie.jpg

[3ball]

You sound like DR crowing about being vindicated by propaganda.

Please listen to the OP video before commenting thank you

[LAmbruh]

no pip no chip

[1987_Lakers]

3ball, I told you a few days ago that the more you svck off MJ in any way that posters here turn on you. There has been a common theme for years, this thread is a perfect example of it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Deg7VrpHbM

[Roundball_Rock]

3ball, I told you a few days ago that the more you svck off MJ in any way that posters here turn on you. There has been a common theme for years, this thread is a perfect example of it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Deg7VrpHbM

What is that MJ video from? An anti-drug PSA I assume?

[LeCroix]

What is that MJ video from? An anti-drug PSA I assume?

you would think but really its from mj finding 3 balls ish posts over the years :lol

[1987_Lakers]

What is that MJ video from? An anti-drug PSA I assume?

Seems like it.

[Mamba4Life]

Please listen to the OP video before commenting thank you

4 and 2 Vs 12 and 10

Losing with an all star vs winning without one

[warriorfan]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WsNKAliZA60&t=05m37s


so 3ball was right about Pippen - but it's not about being right - i was reciting historical fact - Pippen was always a weak link that "wasn't even thought about" by the defense, where teams would simply "make sure he had no confidence"... Only chumps are talked about that way

MJ won 6 rings with this low-producing, low character bum... :bowdown:... And the goat politician to praise Pippen earlier in the doc, knowing it was just political talk and Pippen's own actions would bury him later... And it ain't gonna get better - Pippen was last in clutch-time points in the 97' and 98 Playoffs and Finals

And let's face it - MJ and this doc has given everyone the will to resume the season and quest for Lebron's 4th ring.. btw, I'm only rubbing it in because of all the grief I take about Pippen, as if I'm the one wrong when it's you guys

One of the most telling incidents is the Pippen game where he refused to play during the last play of the game vs the Knicks. The locker room sounded like a total mess. Half the team was in tears after the game. They went from the most mentally strong team to falling apart at the seams.

[3ball]

His production wasn't always low in the finals. Furthermore, you can't ignore his rebounding in big games or his defensive presence. Why do you keep trolling the forum with this kind of rhetoric?

Rebounding doesn't count when comparing a forward to a guard - kyrie can't steal his SF's rebounds - if we count rebounding then kyrie should get an edge for doing something specific to PG's, like bringing up the ball more than Pippen and dribbling more, or shooting more threes and spacing, or something like that

And defense is more easily replaced by having an edge at a different position, whereas the 2nd option scoring role is less replaceable, and less desirable to replace or have a deficit

Ultimately, Pippen isn't playing 14 points better on defense than the average defender replacement, whereas he averaged 14 points less than Kyrie in various Finals.

Let's do a quick analysis of ortg and drtg to see who has the bigger advantage (to see if offense is more valuable than defense or vice versa) - on the surface, it looks like Pippen has a bigger edge in drtg than kyrie has in ortg, until you consider that kyrie is using 30% more possessions, so his ortg edge is applied to an extra 30% of possessions... Otoh, Pippen's defensive edge isn't felt on a lot of possessions above what a replacement defender would do.

We can get more insight by looking at the advanced stats that deal with ortg and drtg - aka net efficiency rating - Kyrie's is higher in the 16' and 17' Playoffs than 97' or 98' Pippen (the years we have data for Pippen)

Do you realize that Pippen was last in clutch points below guys like Chris Morris?.. exactly.. who

[SATAN]

Chris Morris wasn't absolutely terrible throughout most of his career. Don't see the need to make him out to be a total nobody. Actually, yes I do. It's 3ball. Never mind, carry on...

[SATAN]

you would think but really its from mj finding 3 balls ish posts over the years :lol

I legitimately think that would be his response

[3ball]

.
55 wins explained - the "Parcells Effect":

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WsNKAliZA60&t=09m39s

[HoopsNY]

Rebounding doesn't count when comparing a forward to a guard - kyrie can't steal his SF's rebounds - if we count rebounding then kyrie should get an edge for doing something specific to PG's, like bringing up the ball more than Pippen and dribbling more, or shooting more threes and spacing, or something like that

And defense is more easily replaced by having an edge at a different position, whereas the 2nd option scoring role is less replaceable, and less desirable to replace or have a deficit

Ultimately, Pippen isn't playing 14 points better on defense than the average defender replacement, whereas he averaged 14 points less than Kyrie in various Finals.

Let's do a quick analysis of ortg and drtg to see who has the bigger advantage (to see if offense is more valuable than defense or vice versa) - on the surface, it looks like Pippen has a bigger edge in drtg than kyrie has in ortg, until you consider that kyrie is using 30% more possessions, so his ortg edge is applied to an extra 30% of possessions... Otoh, Pippen's defensive edge isn't felt on a lot of possessions above what a replacement defender would do.

We can get more insight by looking at the advanced stats that deal with ortg and drtg - aka net efficiency rating - Kyrie's is higher in the 16' and 17' Playoffs than 97' or 98' Pippen (the years we have data for Pippen)

Do you realize that Pippen was last in clutch points below guys like Chris Morris?.. exactly.. who

But you also can't discredit Pippen's contributions solely on 2 years. He played on 4 other championship teams. The second 3-peat, Pippen was on the decline and really played poorly in the 1996 and 1998 playoffs. But as a whole, Pippen was a valuable contributor and other than Penny, Stockton, and maybe KJ, he was the best sidekick in the league.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Scottie wasn't a closer in 4th quarter but neither was kevin garnett or bill Russell. Scottie was still the goat wing defender, the original point forward, all nba or all defense every year of his prime from 1991-2000, the best wing player of the 1990s not named Michael Jordan. It was because Pippen's help defense that anchored all of bulls title teams and blazers 2000.

As far as Pippen leadership. Well, Pippen was the co leader of 9 different teams that went to the conference championship so I would say he was an outstanding leader.

[warriorfan]

Scottie wasn't a closer in 4th quarter but neither was kevin garnett or bill Russell. Scottie was still the goat wing defender, the original point forward, all nba or all defense every year of his prime from 1991-2000, the best wing player of the 1990s not named Michael Jordan. It was because Pippen's help defense that anchored all of bulls title teams and blazers 2000.

As far as Pippen leadership. Well, Pippen was the co leader of 9 different teams that went to the conference championship so I would say he was an outstanding leader.

Pippen was crying after the game with the Knicks where he refused to play the final play of the game because Phil didn’t draw up a play for him. Great leadership.

[Roundball_Rock]

Stockton 11/3/8 in the 98' playoffs and 9.7 PPG in the finals. "Pippen sucked in the 98' playoffs!" Stockton>Pippen.
Kevin Johnson completely chokes in his one finals. Pippen goes 21/9/8. "KJ may have been better than Pippen!"
Penny outplayed by Pippen two years in a row. "Penny>Pippen!"

Only fans of MJ could pull this off. :oldlol:


Scottie wasn't a closer in 4th quarter but neither was kevin garnett or bill Russell. Scottie was still the goat wing defender, the original point forward, all nba or all defense every year of his prime from 1991-2000, the best wing player of the 1990s not named Michael Jordan. It was because Pippen's help defense that anchored all of bulls title teams and blazers 2000.

As far as Pippen leadership. Well, Pippen was the co leader of 9 different teams that went to the conference championship so I would say he was an outstanding leader.

They don't understand the sport, which is why they think Pippen sucked in the 98' playoffs when anybody who watched knows he dominated on defense. Unfortunately, all they understand is scoring and even only directly. They can't grasp the Chicago offense sucked without Pippen at the controls.

[LeCroix]

Scottie wasn't a closer in 4th quarter but neither was kevin garnett or bill Russell. Scottie was still the goat wing defender, the original point forward, all nba or all defense every year of his prime from 1991-2000, the best wing player of the 1990s not named Michael Jordan. It was because Pippen's help defense that anchored all of bulls title teams and blazers 2000.

As far as Pippen leadership. Well, Pippen was the co leader of 9 different teams that went to the conference championship so I would say he was an outstanding leader.

Welp thats the end of that

[3ball]

Scottie wasn't a closer in 4th quarter but neither was kevin garnett or bill Russell. Scottie was still the goat wing defender, the original point forward, all nba or all defense every year of his prime from 1991-2000, the best wing player of the 1990s not named Michael Jordan. It was because Pippen's help defense that anchored all of bulls title teams and blazers 2000.

As far as Pippen leadership. Well, Pippen was the co leader of 9 different teams that went to the conference championship so I would say he was an outstanding leader.

MJ's goat pitch to free agents:

"Bruh, you only need to average like 17 on 40% dude seriously we'll 3-peat with that... They'll say you're an all time great with that crap - just learn the system and heck, I do everything when it gets tight so you never have to make a big shot.

Basically, play like crap and have everyone say you're a champion.. be a legend with multiple 3-peats... Immortality shit and you barely have to get 16/5/5.

You'll be top 30 with Westbrook's efficiency but half his numbers.. heck, you'll be top 30 with 16/5/5 and the #150 PER lololol.... So what do you think they'll rank me with twice that and the #1 PER?"

[warriorfan]

MJ's goat pitch to free agents:

"Bruh, you only need to average like 17 on 40% dude seriously we'll 3-peat with that... They'll say you're an all time great with that crap - just learn the system and heck, I do everything when it gets tight so you never have to make a big shot.

Basically, play like crap and have everyone say you're a champion.. be a legend with multiple 3-peats... I'm mortality shit with numbers like that...

You'll be top 30 with Westbrook's efficiency but half his numbers.. heck, you'll be top 30 with 16/5/5 and the #150 PER lololol.... So what do you think they'll rank me with twice that and the #1 PER?"

LBJ: Where do I sign?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Pippen was crying after the game with the Knicks where he refused to play the final play of the game because Phil didn’t draw up a play for him. Great leadership.

Scottie was carrying that garbage roster all damn year and had a MVP season. 55 wins despite replacing Jordan with Pete Myers. If anybody did all that and come playoffs last play, the play is not written for you? I think you have a right to tell the coach to go F himself. Especially after you co led 3 title teams the last 3 seasons as well.

[Roundball_Rock]

On the one hand: use his career regular season numbers (factoring in old man years because he didn't keep retiring). On the other, use his field goal percentage for the playoffs for 3 years because it is favorable due to injuries. Why all the sleights of hand?

[Bankaii]

Pippen was crying after the game with the Knicks where he refused to play the final play of the game because Phil didn’t draw up a play for him. Great leadership.
Steph was crying on the bench when Kerr took him out of the final play.
Is he a bad leader too?

[3ball]

Scottie was carrying that garbage roster all damn year and had a MVP season. 55 wins despite replacing Jordan with Pete Myers. If anybody did all that and come playoffs last play, the play is not written for you? I think you have a right to tell the coach to go F himself. Especially after you co led 3 title teams the last 3 seasons as well.

DeRozan carried lowry to 55 wins every year

I would think a 3-peat team could still play a DeRozan caliber of basketball without their best player... And still be trash/worthless in the playoffs

[LeCroix]

Steph was crying on the bench when Kerr took him out of the final play.
Is he a bad leader too?

Ouch :lol

[Axe]

Notice how 3ball's counterpart continuously appears in every thread related to jordan and pippen. 😂

[scuzzy]

Steph was crying on the bench when Kerr took him out of the final play.
Is he a bad leader too?
https://i.postimg.cc/K8DvksBP/yjurfjgj.png (https://postimg.cc/ZW0hXHfn)miranda lambert wiki (https://celebsroll.com/lucy-dacus-bio)

[LeCroix]

DeRozan carried lowry to 55 wins every year

I would think a 3-peat team could still play a DeRozan caliber of basketball without their best player... And still be trash/worthless in the playoffs

93 Bulls won 57 with Michael Jordan
He left
94 Bulls won 55 with Pete Myers

[HBK_Kliq_2]

MJ's goat pitch to free agents:

"Bruh, you only need to average like 17 on 40% dude seriously we'll 3-peat with that... They'll say you're an all time great with that crap - just learn the system and heck, I do everything when it gets tight so you never have to make a big shot.

Basically, play like crap and have everyone say you're a champion.. be a legend with multiple 3-peats... Immortality shit and you barely have to get 16/5/5.

You'll be top 30 with Westbrook's efficiency but half his numbers.. heck, you'll be top 30 with 16/5/5 and the #150 PER lololol.... So what do you think they'll rank me with twice that and the #1 PER?"

You are understating how impactful Pippen's defense was. Phil Jackson said Pippen is the smartest defender he has ever seen or coached. This allows Jordan to rest on defense. During the 2nd 3peat, most playoffs series won by bulls had more to do with their defense than offense. This is where the Pippen factor came in.

On top of that Pippen is an excellent rebounder, excellent ball handler, the lead playmaker during the 2nd 3peat. There's much more to the game than just scoring.

[Roundball_Rock]

And still be trash/worthless in the playoffs

So 3ball is admitting MJ's comp was "trash" since the Bulls with a G-Leaguer replacing MJ fought the Knicks to a draw. They probably would have won if not for an all-time bad foul call to hand the Knicks a 3-2 lead, but the "documentary" left that out...

[LeCroix]

Notice how 3ball's counterpart continuously appears in every thread related to jordan and pippen. ��

We just have the facts ��

[Axe]

DeRozan carried lowry to 55 wins every year

I would think a 3-peat team could still play a DeRozan caliber of basketball without their best player... And still be trash/worthless in the playoffs
Last year, lowry did so without him and they're on the pace this season with 50+ wins once more had it been uninterrupted by the current events.

[Roundball_Rock]

We just have the facts ��

Look at the Bulls' offense plummet without Pippen (a bigger decline than when MJ retired):

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Bulls-efficiencies-Pippen-93-to-98.png

[Axe]

We just have the facts ��
Your point? I never asked for your crappy opinion anyway.

[3ball]

You are understating how impactful Pippen's defense was. Phil Jackson said Pippen is the smartest defender he has ever seen or coached. This allows Jordan to rest on defense. During the 2nd 3peat, most playoffs series won by bulls had more to do with their defense than offense. This is where the Pippen factor came in.

On top of that Pippen is an excellent rebounder, excellent ball handler, the lead playmaker during the 2nd 3peat. There's much more to the game than just scoring.

It's a political talk, grow up bud!!!!!

Those are the things that anyone would say about a teammate - but the stats and facts speak louder, which is why this documentary exposes Pip - immature selfish dude that MJ raised and babied... crazy chokes, migraines, sit-outs, surgery on company time, bulls wanting to trade him many times, etc

[HBK_Kliq_2]

DeRozan carried lowry to 55 wins every year

I would think a 3-peat team could still play a DeRozan caliber of basketball without their best player... And still be trash/worthless in the playoffs

Pippen went game 7 2nd round with Horace Grant as 2nd best player

Shaq and penny won just 4 games past 2nd round in 1995 and Horace was 3rd fiddle

Shaq a top 5-10 goat can't even win a finals game with Horace Grant as his 3rd wheel. Meanwhile, you expect Pippen to win the title with Horace as his 2nd fiddle? Pippen simply didn't have a good enough supporting cast just like Jordan in the 1980s. Pippen still won 55 games with Jordan replaced by rookie Kukoc not Kawhi Leonard lol

[HBK_Kliq_2]

It's a political talk, grow up bud!!!!!

Those are the things that anyone would say about a teammate - but the stats and facts speak louder, which is why this documentary exposes Pip - immature selfish dude that MJ raised and babied... crazy chokes, migraines, sit-outs, surgery on company time, bulls wanting to trade him many times, etc

Pippen was playing on average 75-82 games in the 1990s, he was always dependable and healthy.

Bulls management screwed over Pippen with that lowball contract offer. All they had to do is renegotiate the deal in 1994 and the 1998 missed games would of never happened. In other words, bulls organization are morons and scumbags who haven't made the finals in 22 years.

[Lebron23]

you reallly downgrade your savior?

the guy that saved a 1-9 career loser ??

https://i.postimg.cc/wBLQqPp4/AlongCameScottie.jpg

Lmao. Funniest stuff I had scene all day.

[Akeem34TheDream]

OP started talking about himself in 3rd person.

[MrFonzworth]

https://i.postimg.cc/K8DvksBP/yjurfjgj.png (https://postimg.cc/ZW0hXHfn)miranda lambert wiki (https://celebsroll.com/lucy-dacus-bio)

What the **** is with the link you provided? Mirana Lambert? Lucy Ducus?

[Roundball_Rock]

In other words, bulls organization are morons and scumbags who haven't made the finals in 22 years.

When Wade decided not to sign with Chicago in 2010 one of the things he cited is how the Bulls' treated their past stars.

[RogueBorg]

As far as Pippen leadership. Well, Pippen was the co leader of 9 different teams that went to the conference championship so I would say he was an outstanding leader.

No he wasn't. Not willing to fight the Pistons, the "Migraine Game," 1.8 seconds, delaying surgery into the 1998 season are all examples of a beta.

To make it worse, sunday night he said if he had to do 1.8 seconds all over again....he'd do it again.

You want him in the foxhole with you?

[RogueBorg]

Scottie was carrying that garbage roster all damn year and had a MVP season. 55 wins despite replacing Jordan with Pete Myers. If anybody did all that and come playoffs last play, the play is not written for you? I think you have a right to tell the coach to go F himself. Especially after you co led 3 title teams the last 3 seasons as well.

Context

Do you know how many game winning shots Kukoc hit in just his rookie season of 1993-'94? Do you know how many Pippen hit? Once you Google it you'll see why the play was drawn up for Kukoc.

Scottie Pippen: 'I don't have clutch genes'
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/scottie-pippen-michael-jordan-bulls-clutch-gene-espn-the-jump-video/z5ulncz41rxy17mva2cq4kxxc

[RogueBorg]

Bulls management screwed over Pippen with that lowball contract offer.

That's not true. Pippen wanted and signed the contract he signed. He wanted the long term security.

Where you have an argument is that his deal should have been re-done a few years later.

[RRR3]

DeRozan carried lowry to 55 wins every year

I would think a 3-peat team could still play a DeRozan caliber of basketball without their best player... And still be trash/worthless in the playoffs
Saying DeRozan carried Lowry is just further proof of how stupid you are. DeRozan has never been close to as good as Lowry.

[Roundball_Rock]

As far as Pippen leadership

There are plenty of quotes from his teammates and coaches to this effect. It is a shame the doc erased all of this from the narrative so now we will have to hear "Pippen wasn't a leader" for the next couple years as people treat this as the Bible.


Do you know how many game winning shots Kukoc hit in just his rookie season of 1993-'94?

MJ fans: rookie Kukoc was huge in 94'! He was a major reason or the biggest reason they only fell off from 57 wins to 55, despite losing peak MJ at the last minute and not being able to replace him with a legit player.
MJ fans: rookie Pippen and Grant had no impact on the Bulls going from 40 wins to 50 wins. It is MJ hate to even mention them!

How can both be true? The same people who always talk rookie Kukoc will blow a gasket when rookie Pippen and Grant are mentioned.

Also, if Kukoc was so awesome why do MJ fans never mention Kukoc for the following four seasons when 1) he was better 2) played with MJ?

Not sure how many Pippen hit but Wennington said Pippen hit "a lot of big shots" for them. Of course, that quote didn't make the "doc."

[ImKobe]

It's incredible how Jordan went 6 for 6 with that guy. We saw Pippen QUIT on his team in the middle of a Playoff series. We saw him sit out half a season & demand a trade in their last season together. Lebron would have had Pippen traded for a 2nd rounder after that migraine game.


There are plenty of quotes from his teammates and coaches to this effect. It is a shame the doc erased all of this from the narrative so now we will have to hear "Pippen wasn't a leader" for the next couple years as people treat this as the Bible.


He clearly wasn't. Everyone calls him a nice guy/beta and a leader doesn't quit on his team in a Playoff game because the coach wants a better shooter to get the last shot. He was a leader as far as being a playmaker on the court, but he didn't have that mentality in the locker room.

[LeCroix]

There are plenty of quotes from his teammates and coaches to this effect. It is a shame the doc erased all of this from the narrative so now we will have to hear "Pippen wasn't a leader" for the next couple years as people treat this as the Bible.



MJ fans: rookie Kukoc was huge in 94'! He was a major reason or the biggest reason they only fell off from 57 wins to 55, despite losing peak MJ at the last minute and not being able to replace him with a legit player.
MJ fans: rookie Pippen and Grant had no impact on the Bulls going from 40 wins to 50 wins. It is MJ hate to even mention them!

How can both be true? The same people who always talk rookie Kukoc will blow a gasket when rookie Pippen and Grant are mentioned.

Also, if Kukoc was so awesome why do MJ fans never mention Kukoc for the following four seasons when 1) he was better 2) played with MJ?

Not sure how many Pippen hit but Wennington said Pippen hit "a lot of big shots" for them. Of course, that quote didn't make the "doc."

Ether. Great posting

[97 bulls]

It's incredible how Jordan went 6 for 6 with that guy. We saw Pippen QUIT on his team in the middle of a Playoff series.
Jordan did to in 89 when Coach Doug Collins told Jordan he was being a ball hog and he pouted and only took 8 shots.


We saw him sit out half a season & demand a trade in their last season together.
Didnt Jordan quit on his team in 94 when he retired a month before the start of the season and thus sabotaging any chance for his team to find a decent replacement?


Lebron would have had Pippen traded for a 2nd rounder after that migraine game.
Pippens father died about a month before that game. Why does the Greatest Ever get cut all kinds of slack when he attributes his terrible series Finals in 96 to missing his father who passed years prior, but Pippen cant whose father died only a month prior to that game 7. Against a team that was literally trying to hurt him by doing things that could've ended his career.

This is lunacy.





He clearly wasn't. Everyone calls him a nice guy/beta and a leader doesn't quit on his team in a Playoff game because the coach wants a better shooter to get the last shot. He was a leader as far as being a playmaker on the court, but he didn't have that mentality in the locker room.
Even your God (Jordan) said Pippen was his favorite and best teammate. And he was only one of many.

[Da_Realist]

You sound like DR crowing about being vindicated by propaganda.

I predict it will take about 2 years for you to try to dispel direct quotes and video evidence that refutes your rewriting of history before your head eventually explodes. I know you're going to be here triggered as hell providing us with endless whine and tears for the foreseeable future. Thanks Jason Hehir!

[Roundball_Rock]

He clearly wasn't. Everyone calls him a nice guy/beta

This is the problem with an inaccurate "documentary." Here are facts they didn't mention:

GOAT coach Phil Jackson: “On the Bulls, Scottie was probably the player most liked by others. He mingled. He brought out the best in players and communicated the best. Leadership, real leadership is one of his strengths.

“Everybody says Michael [Jordan] was a great leader. He led by example, by rebuke, by harsh words. Scottie’s leadership was equally dominant, but [his was] a leadership of patting on the back, of support.”

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/pippen_feature_031112.html

As the GOAT alluded to, Pippen's teammates loved him because he was a great leader both on and off the court.


Pippen did what Jordan couldn't, or wouldn't. Pippen usually guarded the toughest offensive player, enabling Jordan to freelance in the lanes for steals and the fast break that broke most teams. While most regard those champion Bulls for Jordan, it was their aggressive defense that produced its offense and created the fear.

When the Bulls won their first championship in 1991, it was Pippen guarding Magic Johnson and creating so much havoc for the Lakers. It was Pippen who directed the triangle offense, enabling Jordan to get in position on the wing to attack the defense. It was Pippen who was the good teammate. Steve Kerr used to say how Pippen not only would get you the good shot, Pippen knew when you were slumping or hadn't had a shot in a while and he'd work the offense to get you a good shot to get going. It was Pippen who was the more favored teammate.

One definition of greatness is making other players better, and Pippen did that.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_sam&id=1895719

“Scottie was my favorite teammate to play with,” Wennington said of Pippen, who will enter basketball’s Hall of Fame on Aug. 13. “Despite how the media depicted him and some of the incidents that happened off the court, when you have a teammate like Scottie who is willing to stand up for his actions on the floor, good or bad, it makes playing with him and the team chemistry a whole lot better.”

“He was very helpful and never derogatory,” recalled Wennington. “I was a new guy. I wasn’t even supposed to be on the team. But he was willing to help me out in practice when we were learning plays or working on the best way to cover a guy. He was able to talk to me without giving the impression like I was below him. He really wanted me to succeed and do well because that made him better.”

“Scottie made everyone better because he was unselfish,” said Wennington. “He’d move the ball to the right spot. He had such a great basketball mind and really understood what was happening on the floor. He was always willing to help out his teammates and make them better.”

“Before I could even answer, Scottie said, ‘Phil, I told him to do it.’ That to me spoke volumes about what type of guy he was,” said Wennington. “With your teammates, when something happens on the floor, you work together. Coaches don’t always know why you do something; they may think you broke a play. Scottie stood up for me and that speaks volumes about him as a person.”

https://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippenhof_wennington_100802.html

[ImKobe]

Jordan did to in 89 when Coach Doug Collins told Jordan he was being a ball hog and he pouted and only took 8 shots.


Didnt Jordan quit on his team in 94 when he retired a month before the start of the season and thus sabotaging any chance for his team to find a decent replacement?


Pippens father died about a month before that game. Why does the Greatest Ever get cut all kinds of slack when he attributes his terrible series Finals in 96 to missing his father who passed years prior, but Pippen cant whose father died only a month prior to that game 7. Against a team that was literally trying to hurt him by doing things that could've ended his career.

This is lunacy.





Even your God (Jordan) said Pippen was his favorite and best teammate. And he was only one of many.

Those are some of the worst arguments in ISH history. Jordan did what Collins asked of him, he didn't refuse to play in a tie game with his team down 0 - 2 in the series.

Do better, Wheels.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen was a different type of leader and teammate than Jordan, Kerr said.

“He was the best defensive player in the league — by far,” Kerr said. “On top of all that, I think this documentary is showing how tough Michael was on his teammates. Scottie was sort of the counterbalance to that. He was the one who made us all feel comfortable and confident. He was beloved on that team. He was such an incredible teammate and player. It was amazing to watch him work every single night and play with him.”
https://chicago.suntimes.com/bulls/2020/4/22/21231092/bulls-steve-kerr-michael-jordan-scottie-pippen-last-dance-surgery

"Scottie was our team leader. He was the guy that directed our offense and he was the guy that took on a lot of big challenges defensively...the year that Michael retired, Scottie I think was the most valuable player in the league. He was probably the player most liked by others. He mingled. He brought out the best in players and communicated the best."--Phil Jackson

Hat tip to KBlaze:

"Scottie was our team leader. He was the guy that directed our offense and he was the guy that took on a lot of big challenges defensively...the year that Michael retired, Scottie I think was the most valuable player in the league.

He was probably the player most liked by others. He mingled. He brought out the best in players and communicated the best. Leadership, real leadership is one of his strengths. Everybody says Michael was a great leader. He led by example, by rebuke, by harsh words. Scottie's leadership was equally dominant, but a leadership of patting on the back, of support.

His greatest strength was his knowledge of how things worked on the defensive end of the floor. Scottie was the voice of our team—figuratively and literally, as he did a lot of the talking and kept our team on the same page. When he wasn’t at the top of the key harassing a guard as a special assignment, he was on the backside of our defense talking his teammates through different situations, whether it was a double team, trap or some other important aspect. Because of that, he was very vital to the run that we made.”
- Phil Jackson

Quote: "Tremendous teammate, that's what comes to mind when I think of Scottie Pippen. He was a very caring teammate who was always concerned about the team, always concerned about it. He just had a great understanding of the team concept. Everyone talks about a great teammate, but he really was a great guy to play with. He may have been having a 25 or 30-point game, but if he knew you were struggling, he'd find a way to get you going as well. He's that type of guy."
- BJ Armstrong

[Roundball_Rock]

More from an old KBlaze post:

Quote: "Scottie is one of the best teammates I've ever had. Everyone loves him. He's so unselfish the way he plays and plays so hard. He knows where you'll be and where you want the ball for a shot. And he'll consciously try to get you shots. He'll be aware when you're struggling in a game, or when you've gone awhile without a shot. He would run by and say, "I know you haven't gotten a shot. Don't worry. Next time, I'll get you one." He cares about everyone like no star I've ever played with."
- Steve Kerr


Quote: “He was very helpful and never derogatory. I was a new guy. I wasn’t even supposed to be on the team. But he was willing to help me out in practice when we were learning plays or working on the best way to cover a guy. He was able to talk to me without giving the impression like I was below him. He really wanted me to succeed and do well because that made him better. Scottie wanted to win basketball games and he understood that the harder you work in practice, the easier the games are for you. He really put his heart and soul into practice and left it all out on the floor. When you have guys of that talent level who are working that hard, it makes practice fun. You have to compete. There were no off days in practice.”
- Bill Wennington

Quote: "The subtle things that he did so well-defensively helping his teammates, recovering out to guys offensively, making plays, being unselfish-those are things that teammates always recognize and noticed. You always felt like Scottie had your back.

I know a lot of guys have talked about the kind of teammate that he was, and it is dead on. Scottie was very encouraging as a teammate. He was the type of guy that if you weren't playing well, or you missed a few shots in a row or had your head hanging down, he was going to encourage you to look for your shot. That was really important for a lot of us because we respected him as a player, and as a person, for the way he approached the game and worked at his craft. The fact that he would encourage the majority of his time was a big thing for us."

I remember often in games, with me, if I was struggling with my shot, he would keep looking for me. He would keep saying, 'One's going to go down.' It's just how he was and that was pretty important for us. We all understood the pecking order, believe me. But to have one of your best players out there encouraging and wanting you to do well was always important."
-John Paxson
6 time NBA champion


Why it matters is obvious but ill say it anyway....

No. Pippen was not the best player on the Bulls title teams. But he was as much of a leader as anyone.

[97 bulls]

Those are some of the worst arguments in ISH history. Jordan did what Collins asked of him, he didn't refuse to play in a tie game with his team down 0 - 2 in the series.

Do better, Wheels.

Facts hurt huh?

[Da_Realist]

Pippen was a great leader, though. MJ was like the father demanding excellence, discipline and accountability. And he was harsh. He was like Mickey from the Rocky movies. Old School trainer.

"You BUM!"

"You fight like a goddamned ape."

"You stay away from that pet shop dame. Women weaken the legs!"

"You got no business being in the same ring as him."

Pippen had a softer leadership style. He encouraged, gently corrected, allowed the guys to get comfortable.

I think both were needed.

[ImKobe]

Facts hurt huh?

You just equated MJ taking less shots & actually following his coach's game plan to Pippen refusing to close out a tie game down 0 - 2 in a Playoff series.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen was a great leader, though. MJ was like the father demanding excellence, discipline and accountability. And he was harsh. He was like Mickey from the Rocky movies. Old School trainer.

"You BUM!"

"You fight like a goddamned ape."

"You stay away from that pet shop dame. Women weaken the legs!"

"You got no business being in the same ring as him."

Pippen had a softer leadership style. He encouraged, gently corrected, allowed the guys to get comfortable.

I think both were needed.

I agree (shocked? :lol ) and that basically is what Kerr said in an interview on The Jump, that you needed the counterbalance.

Jordan was a great leader of course. I went overboard years ago because of comments like those above about Pippen being "beta" or what Cowherd and Gottlieb (guys I respect") said yesterday. When you know the other side of the story and see it portrayed falsely it can be frustrating.

My views on MJ also were colored when I tried his style and it didn't work (and yes, I was viewed as the most talented of the group but I was a colleague, not their boss, as I learned :oldlol: .) I later adopted the Pippen-style approach and it succeeded--but the political world isn't the same as sports so I can't speak to how it would go there. I suspect it works--but only if you are a MJ or Kobe level guy. If Randy Brown or Kyle Korver did the same it wouldn't work most likely.

[Da_Realist]

And MJ was not the only one. Maybe he took it the furthest but Oscar Robertson had a harsh leadership style. Magic Johnson was harsh. Isiah Thomas was harsh. Olajuwon was harsh. Obviously Kobe Bryant was harsh.

[RogueBorg]

MJ fans: rookie Kukoc was huge in 94'!
"

I didn't say Kukoc was huge, you're projecting. I asked, "How many game winning shots did Kukoc hit in '93-'94?"

Then I asked "how many did Pippen hit?"

When you find the answer then you'll understand why the play was drawn up for Kukoc and not Pippen.

[Roundball_Rock]

And MJ was not the only one. Maybe he took it the furthest but Oscar Robertson had a harsh leadership style. Magic Johnson was harsh. Isiah Thomas was harsh. Olajuwon was harsh. Obviously Kobe Bryant was harsh.

How about a player who wasn't a superstar of their caliber who was that way? I know role players like Haslem and Cartwright, good but not great players like Green, Noah, or L. Williams, to name a few have been recognized as leaders on their teams. We don't hear much about how they do it because they don't get the same spotlight. Do you know of any non-superstar who operated that way successfully?


I didn't say Kukoc was awesome, you're projecting. I asked, "How many game winning shots did Kukoc hit in '93-'94?"


I see it everyday so sorry for lumping you in with the lot.

We know the answer for Kukoc because they included it in the doc: 4.

You note the final play was drawn up for Pippen but what the doc omitted was the previous play was for Pippen and Kukoc screwed it up by not moving out to give Pippen the room to isolate and beat his man. That played into Pippen's ire (still no excuse for what he did but that was important context if they wanted to dive into that).

[97 bulls]

And MJ was not the only one. Maybe he took it the furthest but Oscar Robertson had a harsh leadership style. Magic Johnson was harsh. Isiah Thomas was harsh. Olajuwon was harsh. Obviously Kobe Bryant was harsh.

That's style can exist when teams are winning. Not sure it would if teams were losing.

[Lebron23]

21st greatest player of all time.

[RogueBorg]

21st greatest player of all time.

Not saying he's not, but they also have Nash ahead of Isiah.

[Roundball_Rock]

Those rankings will be gospel when they have MJ #1 tomorrow. :lol

[Da_Realist]

My views on MJ also were colored when I tried his style and it didn't work (and yes, I was viewed as the most talented of the group but I was a colleague, not their boss, as I learned :oldlol: .) I later adopted the Pippen-style approach and it succeeded--but the political world isn't the same as sports so I can't speak to how it would go there. I suspect it works--but only if you are a MJ or Kobe level guy. If Randy Brown or Kyle Korver did the same it wouldn't work most likely.

Playing a physical sport at the highest level when you're playing for a title with millions with watching is different than some office job. One is almost exclusively a man's space. The other is a #MeToo setting.

[Roundball_Rock]

That was long before Me Too but the issue I ran into was when I did the MJ stuff of "We have to win" and "I need everybody to match my level", "These mistakes can't continue" etc. thing they wrote me off as an ahole. When I later evolved to a more friendly, mentoring approach the results improved and I got deference when I asked for the same stuff. (To be clear, I wasn't mimicking either MJ or Pippen. I just had MJ's nature and evolved to a Pippen-type co-worker later who checked the MJ-type tendencies because I had to in order to get results.)

Not the same as a sport (other than the intensity of winning during a relatively short time frame) but it colored my perceptions when I made some posts about MJ and leadership 7-8 years ago.

[3ball]

.
All of Lebron's sidekicks had better character and out-produced Pippen:


Playoffs

Kyrie 16-17'...... 25.5 ppg.. 46.0 fg.. 23.0 PER.. 0.181 ws/48
Pippen 91-93'... 17.6 ppg.. 40.8 fg.. 19.0 PER.. 0.157 ws/48
Pippen 91-93'... 20.3 ppg.. 47.8 fg.. 19.6 PER.. 0.157 ws/48



Finals Stats

Wade 11-14....... 21.1 ppg.. 5.2 rpg.. 4.5 apg.. 47.9%
Pippen Career... 19.0 ppg.. 8.3 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 42.5%


Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm



09' Mo Will RS... 18/3/4.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 17.1 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
89' Pippen RS'... 14/6/4.. 52.4 ts.. 102 ORtg.. 14.9 PER.. 0.080 ws/48.. 1.4 bpm.. 2.1 vorp

09' Mo Will ECF...... 18/3/4.. 50.5 ts.. 102 ORtg.. #3 team defense.. lost to #4 SRS (2 all-stars)
89' Pippen 1st Rd... 15/9/4.. 51.0 ts.. 102 ORtg.. #11 team defense.. beat #1 SRS (3 all-stars*)

* plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper




^^^ inferior stats and a scummy guy!!

[Round Mound]

We should also ask Jordan and Jordan Fanboys WHY is it that Jordan always said he would "COME BACK..ONLY IF PIPPEN STAYS" to play alongside him?

Why?
Was Pippen That Important?
Why Not Another Player?
Why did Jordan Select His All Time Team and PUT PIPPEN in there instead of Another Player?

None have answered these questions yet.

[Roundball_Rock]

We should also ask Jordan and Jordan Fanboys WHY is it that Jordan always said he would "COME BACK..ONLY IF PIPPEN STAYS" to play alongside him?

Why?
Was Pippen That Important?
Why Not Another Player?
Why did Jordan Select His All Time Team and PUT PIPPEN in there instead of Another Player?

None have answered these questions yet.

That is their MO. They run and hide when facts show up.

[3ball]

We should also ask Jordan and Jordan Fanboys WHY is it that Jordan always said he would "COME BACK..ONLY IF PIPPEN STAYS" to play alongside him?

Why?
Was Pippen That Important?
Why Not Another Player?
Why did Jordan Select His All Time Team and PUT PIPPEN in there instead of Another Player?

None have answered these questions yet.

MJ didn't want to have to start over building another sidekick or championship chemistry/system

That takes time and he was too old for that

It's the same reason he didn't want to start over with a new coach, even though he was capable of carrying a lottery roster/low seed to the cusp of the Finals without Phil, aka 1989.. the only reason he didn't do this sooner was that he kept running into the Celtics in the 1st Round

[AlternativeAcc.]

MJ didn't want to have to start over building another sidekick or championship chemistry/system

That takes time and he was too old for that

It's the same reason he didn't want to start over with a new coach, even though he was capable of carrying a lottery roster/low seed to the cusp of the Finals without Phil, aka 1989.. the only reason he didn't do this sooner was that he kept running into the Celtics in the 1st Round
Lebron has done this on 3 different occasions and all successfully (once he wins this year with AD)

Also did it at age 35

Another reason LeBron > MJ

Lebron does what MJ couldn't and didn't want to do, straight from the horses mouth :applause:

[3ball]

Lebron has done this on 3 different occasions and all successfully (once he wins this year with AD)

Also did it at age 35

Another reason LeBron > MJ

Lebron does what MJ couldn't and didn't want to do, straight from the horses mouth :applause:


Kyrie, Wade and AD were already stars before lebron

Only MJ had to build single digit rookies into all-stars to win (pip, grant, bj)

So you're wrong and letting bias blind you from facts

[Roundball_Rock]

Lebron has done this on 3 different occasions and all successfully (once he wins this year with AD)

Also did it at age 35

Another reason LeBron > MJ

Lebron does what MJ couldn't and didn't want to do, straight from the horses mouth :applause:

Good point.

Even lesser stars have succeeded with a new sidekick. Durant went from Westbrook to Curry. Barkley joined Kevin Johnson. Hakeem paired with Drexler. Shaq played with Penny then Kobe and then Wade (Shaq was the guy in 05'). The list goes on. Yet the great MJ couldn't? That is pure BS.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Kyrie, Wade and AD were already stars before lebron

Only MJ had to build single digit rookies into all-stars to win (pip, grant, bj)

So you're wrong and letting bias blind you from facts
Lebron started over with new teammates and coaches all the time, all throughout his career

He even had to create 2nd options out of thin air like when irving and love got injured in the 2015 playoffs, or in 2019 when rookie Kuzma was his 2nd option (4th seed before groin tear)

Lebron does what Jordan never could and admitted he wouldn't even try

[3ball]

Lebron started over with new teammates and coaches all the time, all throughout his career

He even had to create 2nd options out of thin air like when irving and love got injured in the 2015 playoffs, or in 2019 when rookie Kuzma was his 2nd option (4th seed before groin tear)

Lebron does what Jordan never could and admitted he wouldn't even try

Lebron never built Kuzma into a star... that's the difference - lebron got 5 ready-made Pippen's - kyrie, wade, love, bosh, ad

He landed on 2 teams that were league favorites in Year 1 of existence (11', 15) - that's the easiest path possible, whereas MJ developed favorite status over several years

[Roundball_Rock]

Lebron never built Kuzma into a champion like MJ did

:oldlol: Jordan can't build anything. Ask fans of the Wizards and Hornets.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Lebron never built Kuzma into a star... that's the difference - lebron got 5 ready-made Pippen's - kyrie, wade, love, bosh, ad

He landed on 2 teams that were league favorites in Year 1 of existence (11', 15) - that's the easiest path possible, whereas MJ developed favorite status over several years
None of those guys are Pippen... Give me Pippen as 2nd option over all of those guys except maybe AD (who hasn't accomplished shit without LeBron)

And no, you said it yourself.. starting over with new teammates and coaches is the HARDEST path.. you admitted it. There's no backtracking from that. LeBron's never had the luxury of having career long chemistry with another player or coach because all the good players he's ever played with either had severe injuries or were complete nut-cases, in Irvings case both of those.

Jordan had the best 2nd option possible his entire career and Scottie was healthy as a horse forever. Doesn't get any luckier or ready-made than that... not to mention the stability of the Zen master... god damn Jordan had it easy and he was such a spoiled bitch he only came back from quitting if it was just as easy when he returned.



:oldlol: Jordan can't build anything. Ask fans of the Wizards and Hornets.


:roll:

[Round Mound]

MJ didn't want to have to start over building another sidekick or championship chemistry/system

That takes time and he was too old for that

It's the same reason he didn't want to start over with a new coach, even though he was capable of carrying a lottery roster/low seed to the cusp of the Finals without Phil, aka 1989.. the only reason he didn't do this sooner was that he kept running into the Celtics in the 1st Round

:roll: Yeah right in truth he just did not wan't any other star that wouldn't wan't to sacrifice stats so he could keep shooting 25 26 FGAs PG. He also did not wan't any other player that could play-make like Pippen could but not only that, also, anchor a defense to add to it. Jordan was blessed wth Pippen. He never won anything without Pippen as his point-forward. :confusedshrug:

[Roundball_Rock]

:applause: two great posts.

[3ball]

None of those guys are Pippen...



Wade, kyrie and Bosh are all better than Pippen and the stats and skills/eye test shows that clearly

So keep dreaming... There's a reason MJ is goat and it isn't because Pippen was all-world.. he wasn't and all the facts support that he was weak

He was a scummy, low character choker... Then check the stats - MJ had to carry a ridiculous scoring load and volume, while still getting equal assists and more dpoy votes.. Pippen didn't do shit and the results speak for themselves - Pip never hit a big shot or did anything in the clutch

[Roundball_Rock]

Odd that MJ stans want to invoke character...

[RRR3]

Literally no one thinks Kyrie or Bosh are better than Pippen.


Wade was though.

[Roundball_Rock]

Literally no one thinks Kyrie or Bosh are better than Pippen.

Wade was though.

It is weird they want to plant their flag on Kyrie, not Wade. :lol

[3ball]

Literally no one thinks Kyrie or Bosh are better than Pippen.


Wade was though.

They're being hypocritical - lebron is goat due to stats, but Pippen doesn't suck by that same standard?

It's bullshit

And don't even think about trying to create some non-stat argument in Pippen's behalf, as if you know what ur talking about...

[RRR3]

They're being hypocritical - lebron is goat due to stats, but Pippen doesn't suck by that same standard?

It's bullshit

And don't even think about trying to create some non-stat argument in Pippen's behalf, as if you know what ur talking about...
Pippen does quite well in BPM and VORP, and I think he does great in RAPM for the seasons available (Roundball back me up here)

[3ball]

Pippen does quite well in BPM and VORP, and I think he does great in RAPM for the seasons available (Roundball back me up here)

Kukoc and Grant had higher ws/48 various years then pip - they were contributing to wins more than him...

So Pippen is entirely overrated..

aka he's a legendary choker with horrible character, horrible stats, horrible shooting and the worst clutch stats in the league...

[RRR3]

Kukoc and Grant had higher ws/48 various years then pip - they were contributing to wins more than him... Pippen is entirely overrated
Even you don't think Toni Kukoc and Horace Grant were contributing more to winning than Scottie Pippen. Say that sentence in public to people who were watching in the 90's and I bet they laugh you out of the room.

[3ball]

Even you don't think Toni Kukoc and Horace Grant were contributing more to winning than Scottie Pippen. Say that sentence in public to people who were watching in the 90's and I bet they laugh you out of the room.

No, they wouldn't laugh

Pippen was literally the butt of jokes in the 90's.. my buddy called him "Potty" Pippen

And I guarantee that grant and Kukoc contributed more to wins in many series

It's funny because you're a fool who thinks the Earth is flat regarding Pippen... I'm right on this bro... Always have, always will... Because I was there... I can dig up many quotes from YouTube that show people in the 90's thought the bulls were a 1-man team, or I can just tell you about my own memories of no one having faith in Pippen

[RRR3]

No, they wouldn't laugh

Pippen was literally the butt of jokes in the 90's.. my buddy called him "Potty" Pippen

And I guarantee that grant and Kukoc contributed more to wins in many series

It's funny because you're a fool who thinks the Earth is flat regarding Pippen... I'm right on this bro... Always have, always will... Because I was there... I can dig up many quotes from YouTube that show people in the 90's thought the bulls were a 1-man team, or I can just tell you about my own memories

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NPROszItDWw/VJKN1555aXI/AAAAAAAAABo/dfzHm5_c1e8/s1600/crazy-looking-crazy-man.jpg

[3ball]

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NPROszItDWw/VJKN1555aXI/AAAAAAAAABo/dfzHm5_c1e8/s1600/crazy-looking-crazy-man.jpg

Im not saying Kukoc or Grant > Pippen (although Phil preferred Kukoc when it mattered)

But how can pippen be a great star when his teammates routinely lead him in WS/48?

That means that they're outplaying their matchup by more than Pippen is outplaying his.. they're literally out-producing their matchup by more than Pippen is out-producing his... That shouldn't happen if Pippen is truly a boss player... Heck, kyrie destroyed the only unanimous league MVP!

[LeCroix]

Literally no one thinks Kyrie or Bosh are better than Pippen.


Wade was though.

Wade has a better peak but Scottie gave you 10 years of all defense goat perimeter anchor on 20/7/7

tough to say over the long haul

would you rathe rhave Wade for 2 years peak/near peak or Scottie for 10 years prime and peak?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Wade has a better peak but Scottie gave you 10 years of all defense goat perimeter anchor on 20/7/7

tough to say over the long haul

would you rathe rhave Wade for 2 years peak/near peak or Scottie for 10 years prime and peak?

Wade had a better peak, prime and career.

Also had a better PER, BPM, and better RAPM respective to his era

You'll be alright.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen does quite well in BPM and VORP, and I think he does great in RAPM for the seasons available (Roundball back me up here)

Yeah it is ironic to see a stats lover hate Pippen. He doesn't stick out in traditional stats because he didn't dominate any given category outside of steals but he consistently does well in advanced stats. Unfortunately we don't have on/off court, RAPM, etc. for Pippen's peak but we have data for 97', his last near peak season (98' was still prime but a drop-off). One note on 97': Pippen started the season off (relatively for him) slow due to an injury (foot I think) but came on strong in the second half.

1997 RAPM was 1) Laetnner 2) Jordan 3) Mills 4) T. Hardaway 5) Outlaw 6) Pippen 7) Mourning 8) Blaylock 9) Hornacek 10) Ewing. http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com/2013/10/introducing-1990s-rapm.html?m=1

In net on/off court in 97' he led the Bulls at +8.1 (MJ was +8.0).

Chicago's offense actually suffered more when they lost Pippen than when they lost MJ (not surprising when you look at how overall efficiency and per player efficiency plummeted without Pippen there to pilot the offense):

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Bulls-efficiencies-Pippen-93-to-98.png

Pippen's estimated impact for his peak is right behind peak Kobe :

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Jordan-v-GOAT-on-off-results-91-93-50g.png

[3ball]

Yeah it is ironic to see a stats lover hate Pippen. He doesn't stick out in traditional stats because he didn't dominate any given category outside of steals but he consistently does well in advanced stats. Unfortunately we don't have on/off court, RAPM, etc. for Pippen's peak but we have data for 97', his last near peak season (98' was still prime but a drop-off). One note on 97': Pippen started the season off (relatively for him) slow due to an injury (foot I think) but came on strong in the second half.

1997 RAPM was 1) Laetnner 2) Jordan 3) Mills 4) T. Hardaway 5) Outlaw 6) Pippen 7) Mourning 8) Blaylock 9) Hornacek 10) Ewing. http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com/2013/10/introducing-1990s-rapm.html?m=1

In net on/off court in 97' he led the Bulls at +8.1 (MJ was +8.0).

Chicago's offense actually suffered more when they lost Pippen than when they lost MJ (not surprising when you look at how overall efficiency and per player efficiency plummeted without Pippen there to pilot the offense):

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Bulls-efficiencies-Pippen-93-to-98.png

Pippen's estimated impact for his peak is right behind peak Kobe :

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Jordan-v-GOAT-on-off-results-91-93-50g.png

Bruh.... :facepalm:....

You've been backed into a corner so much that you're citing stats that show Laettner > Jordan and Terry Mills > Tim Hardaway

At some point you must concede that there's no actual data showing Pippen was good... It only shows he sucked... And when you add his scummy character to his weak stats, it's a rap

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen does quite well in BPM and VORP, and I think he does great in RAPM for the seasons available (Roundball back me up here)

Here is some more data:


Pippen’s best years hit the beginning of the plus-minus era, and his numbers are impressive. After a marginal year in ’94 (86th percentile), he posted scaled Augmented Plus-Minus values in the 97th percentile in ’95 and ’96, followed by a season in the 98th percentile using adjusted plus-minus (APM) in 1997.7 His augmented ’95 season was second in the league to plus-minus goliath David Robinson, while his ’96 season trailed only Robinson, Jordan and the venerable Penny Hardaway.

In total, Pippen’s perimeter defense, rebounding and strong passing make him a highly scalable asset, capable of supercharging all kinds of teams.

https://backpicks.com/2018/01/29/backpicks-goat-23-scottie-pippen/


heck it out for yourself — for my money, David Robinson looks like the king of plus-minus in the 90s, Karl Malone, Scottie Pippen and Mookie Blaylock look great, and Julius Erving takes a huge hit

https://backpicks.com/2017/09/18/augmented-plus-minus-evaluating-old-pm-data/

[3ball]

Here is some more data:



https://backpicks.com/2018/01/29/backpicks-goat-23-scottie-pippen/



https://backpicks.com/2017/09/18/augmented-plus-minus-evaluating-old-pm-data/

^^^ plus-minus favors winning teams and shows that Laettner, Mills and Outlaw were #1, 3 and 6 in plus-minus, so its not a good measure

Regardless, 40 guys had better plus-minus than Pippen in his best year of 1994

Otoh, thanks to your data, we know Pippen was had lower gamescore than the opponent's 2nd option in 4 series during the title runs, and was outplayed in other series that gamescore didn't catch - overall, your data showed Pippen being outplayed by Willis, X-man, Howard, Smits, Penny, Kemp - that's only the championship runs and more than I realized... We also know he was destroyed in 99', 00', 95, and 88-90'.. that's a shit-ton for a so-called great player... Top 30 is ridiculous... Pippen would've been Derrick Mckey without MJ

Btw, do you realize how loosey-goosey his 94' season was?... He had a 3-peat system, and he was #1 option with low expectations... And yet he's forced to lead a defensive-orientee team as the offense falls off a cliff and prevents championship viability

[SATAN]

Eye test always said no Pip no Chip

[97 bulls]

Eye test always said no Pip no Chip

Exactly. Guys just dont want to look at what actually happened on the court. It says something when stats show that guys like Kukoc, Grant had more impact than Pippen. Or that somehow guys like Laetner had more impact than Jordan. We put far too much stock in statistics.

[Roundball_Rock]

Reminder, this is what the writer actually said:


Pippen’s best years hit the beginning of the plus-minus era, and his numbers are impressive. After a marginal year in ’94 (86th percentile), he posted scaled Augmented Plus-Minus values in the 97th percentile in ’95 and ’96, followed by a season in the 98th percentile using adjusted plus-minus (APM) in 1997.7 His augmented ’95 season was second in the league to plus-minus goliath David Robinson, while his ’96 season trailed only Robinson, Jordan and the venerable Penny Hardaway.


Anyway, what does the augmented plus-minus tell us from Pollack’s data? I’ve compiled all the results in a google doc alongside known RAPM to give a historical perspective of this kind of data from 1994-2013 (and back to 1977 for a select group of 76ers). Check it out for yourself — for my money, David Robinson looks like the king of plus-minus in the 90s, Karl Malone, Scottie Pippen and Mookie Blaylock look great, and Julius Erving takes a huge hit. I’ve also created an interactive visual with some notable players — it’s easy to compare players if you deselect everyone.


plus-minus favors winning teams and shows that Laettner, Mills and Outlaw were #1, 3 and 6 in plus-minus, so its not a good measure


That is naive. Using that logic, no stat is a good measure because every stat will have outliers. For example your favorite, PER, tells us John Collins, Mitchell Robinson, and Christian Wood are all top 13-16 players this year. Karl Anthony Towns is 6th this year and was 4th last year. PER says Neil Johnston is 11th all-time, Petit 7th, Chris Paul 9th, and Harden 10th. Yao is 23rd.

Kyrie Irving consistently has an average net plus/minus. The key word is "net"--that is why from 2016-2020 his average rank on his team in this metric is 7th, so he is not even above average.

[RogueBorg]

No, they wouldn't laugh

Pippen was literally the butt of jokes in the 90's.. my buddy called him "Potty" Pippen

And I guarantee that grant and Kukoc contributed more to wins in many series

It's funny because you're a fool who thinks the Earth is flat regarding Pippen... I'm right on this bro... Always have, always will... Because I was there... I can dig up many quotes from YouTube that show people in the 90's thought the bulls were a 1-man team, or I can just tell you about my own memories of no one having faith in Pippen

Everything 3ball is telling you guys on how Pippen was perceived in the 1990's is correct, I was in Chicago, I saw it all first hand. I'm telling you guys there were arguments on the local sports radio stations about Pippen. Mike North and Dan Jiggets were the hosts on the Score, Mike Greenberg was an intern. This has been going on since at least 1992 when I first started listening to the station. It's the reason 3ball is coming across as a psycho but he's not lying.

Here's a good article of the development of Scottie Pippen
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/824188-michael-jordans-genius-method-of-creating-pippen-in-his-own-image

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Everything 3ball is telling you guys on how Pippen was perceived in the 1990's is correct, I was in Chicago, I saw it all first hand. I'm telling you guys there were arguments on the local sports radio stations about Pippen. Mike North and Dan Jiggets were the hosts on the Score, Mike Greenberg was an intern. This has been going on since at least 1992 when I first started listening to the station. It's the reason 3ball is coming across as a psycho but he's not lying.

Here's a good article of the development of Scottie Pippen
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/824188-michael-jordans-genius-method-of-creating-pippen-in-his-own-image

The haters will ask why Jordan didn't "create" multiple Pippen's. Fact is though, not all grown men are going to take on a submissive role. Pippen was willing to learn and be mentored by Jordan. Even with Jordan goading him "Migraine today, Scottie?" I think without Jordan he would still be good. Likely all-star caliber. Nowhere near how he's talked about now though.

I'd still take Wade, Kareem and Kobe as sidekicks over Pippen. Every time.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen was perceived as a superstar in the 90's. It is unfortunate we have an entire insecure fan base dedicated to diminishing him because they think that makes MJ somehow better (spoiler: it doesn't). Simple Google searches and YouTube footage of games from that time would confirm that.


I'm telling you guys there were arguments on the local sports radio stations about Pippen.

Yeah, and there are arguments on local sports about Carson Wentz and Bryce Harper today in Philadelphia. That is what local sports talk does to fill the airwaves 24/7. :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

Let's look at what the media was actually saying about Pippen in real time. These are all from marquee coverage: the flagship NBC telecasts, TNT telecasts, Sports Illustrated, etc. Not articles from the podunkville times. These cover 1992-1998 so a large time sample.

You have Marv Albert and Mike Fratello referring to the "two superstars" and talking about how Jordan and Pippen struggling is why there is a Game 7 in 1992. Go to the 1:25 mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEqGRf6AMGc

Hubie Brown talking about Pippen being a MVP candidate along with Hakeem, David Robinson in the opening to this 1994 playoff game. 10 second mark .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7mhQAuhDzw

Let's go to 1995. "Two of the NBA's biggest stars go head to head as Charles Barkley and Scottie Pippen.." for the intro open at the top of the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlMmEo8UfvQ

Time for 1996. This is a segment where Bob Ryan is saying Pippen=Jordan during a Sunday morning show. Go to the end of the video. Here is the exchange:

1995-96 season ESPN Sunday Conversation

Roy Firestone interviewing Scottie: "They are saying this is an MVP season for you..."

Bob Ryan: "This guy gives them elements on the court that are unattainable, unapproachable anywhere else..."

Dick Schaap: "Is he is good as his teammate?"

Ryan: "Well, as a matter of fact technically he is, but he doesn't have the aura of Michael Jordan but he can do things--in a package--that is unsurpassed in the NBA today..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTRqNvUSACE

Also from 1996, why would Dream Team III players most want to be Pippen, a scrub?


If you could be any other player here who would it be?

It was a question I'd asked 12 years ago to Dream Team III: [/B]Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley, Penny Hardaway, Gary Payton, Shaq.

Their answers lent insight into which players they respected, whose game they feared. Back then Scottie Pippen's name came up the most. Five out of the 12 players on that team wanted to be, even if for one game, Jordan's Green Hornet. When asked, "Why Pip?" it was Miller who explained it best: "Because Pippen can score only five points and still dominate a basketball game."

[Roundball_Rock]

Matt Guokas (1996): “Scottie Pippen, the best all-around player in the game.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJQvkn_zUIg&feature=channel_page

How about 1997 action? Sports Illustrated. The title? EXTENDING HIMSELF NOT EVEN YOU KNOW WHO HAS BEEN MORE VALUABLE THAN SCOTTIE PIPPEN IN THE BULLS' POSTSEASON RUN


Pippen's performance on Sunday certified that
he--as much as Jordan--has been the Bulls' MVP throughout the
postseason.

Sports Illustrated: Pippen is the second best player in the league (1997). I don't have the link but you can look for it in 97' SI articles.

Let's get to 1998. Sports Illustrated again:


Pippen's absence, however, has shown how vital a cog he is in
the Bulls' machine. While Pippen has long been recognized as one
of the game's top players, his accolades customarily have come
with an addendum: He couldn't have done it without Jordan. What
hadn't occurred to many observers was that perhaps Jordan
couldn't have done it without Pippen.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1997/11/24/hurry-back-lacking-injured-catalyst-scottie-pippen-and-a-lot-of-their-old-fire-the-bulls-have-been-struggling-just-to-score

I could go on all day but you get the freaking point as I showed you real time media coverage from 1992-1998. Truth is powerful. :hammertime:

[Roundball_Rock]

To give younger people some perspective on how ridiculous this exchange is, for these MJ fans to say Pippen was not perceived as a superstar in the 90's is like someone 20 years from now saying Kawhi or Harden wasn't seen as a superstar in this era.

[3ball]

To give younger people some perspective on how ridiculous this exchange is, for these MJ fans to say Pippen was not perceived as a superstar in the 90's is like someone 20 years from now saying Kawhi or Harden wasn't seen as a superstar in this era.

Pippen wasn't a consensus superstar during the 1st three-peat.. not even close.. it's just a fact

He was however viewed as a superstar during the 2nd three-peat, but that was because he had a rare 3-peat - his stats and performance didn't merit it (he was frequently outplayed by opposing 2nd options during 2nd three-peat)

At all times during the 90's, Pippen was always viewed as a top 10-20 player... Only on a couple occasions for very short periods would he reach borderline top 10 status, like 94' before the choke in Playoffs

[AlternativeAcc.]

The entire argument 3ball is trying to make is stupid and shows and he has nothing of substance to offer

He's clinging to what casual fans perceived of scottie in the early 90s as some sort of saving grace to prove Pippen sucked

You're on a website full of basketball enthusiasts who know the game in and out and you're clinging to the idea that Pippen may have been under appreciated in the early 90s.

That is so sad and desperate.

Round ball rock is toying with you like a tether ball.

[Roundball_Rock]

The entire argument 3ball is trying to make is stupid and shows and he has nothing of substance to offer

He's clinging to what casual fans perceived of scottie in the early 90s as some sort of saving grace to prove Pippen sucked

Plus he is being deceptive. "Borderline top 10-20." He was consensus top 10 for years and often top 5. If you said Pippen was the 3rd or 4th best during his peak years it would not surprise anyone, just as a similar statement about Kawhi or Harden would be received today.

I grew up in the Philadelphia area and Pippen was understood to be a superstar nationally and was marketed as such (like the "Barkley versus Pippen" billing). One example of this is the "NBA on NBC" intro montage. Those were the biggest names in the sport.

That is why the news coverage I showed were national sources. NBC, TNT broadcast to the entire country. Sports Illustrated is a national magazine. They are communicating to a broad audience with a shared understanding. Notice how in all those comments Pippen being a superstar is presented matter of factly. They aren't explaining why they think that--they know their audience knows why and that their views are consistent with the consensus.

Also note that this big anti-Pippen push did not exist until MJ stans got insecure, first about Kobe and now LeBron.

One problem is the NBA does not publish an annual ranking of players. The closest we get to that is all-NBA teams, which are really useful when comparing forwards to other forwards. He was first team all-NBA his three peak years, finishing ahead of Karl Malone in voting two of those years. He was ahead of Barkley in each of those years. Needless to say, he was ahead of second-tier stars like Kemp. Does this mean Barkley and Malone weren't superstars either then?

What strikes me his how brazen they are. As I said earlier, it would be like someone 20 years from now claiming Harden or Kawhi were "borderline top 10" or "10-20" or that "Kawhi was overrated only because of his rings."

Finally, how much does real time perception matter? Harry Truman was considered a terrible president when he left office; now he is borderline top 5. You need 20+ years to elapse to evaluate a historical figure. With Pippen the verdict is in: top 20-30 all-time. :rockon:

[3ball]

The entire argument 3ball is trying to make is stupid and shows and he has nothing of substance to offer

He's clinging to what casual fans perceived of scottie in the early 90s as some sort of saving grace to prove Pippen sucked

You're on a website full of basketball enthusiasts who know the game in and out and you're clinging to the idea that Pippen may have been under appreciated in the early 90s.

That is so sad and desperate.

Round ball rock is toying with you like a tether ball.

I'm not making arguments - Pippen's own stats, chokes, and scummy moves bury him.. I just have to point them out in the historical record..

And Roundball recently provided analysis showing that he was outplayed a shit-ton by the opponent's 2nd option - 4 times he had lower gamescore than the opponent's 2nd option during the championship runs and was outplayed several other series that gamescore didn't catch... Overall, he was outplayed by Kemp, Penny, Howard, Smits, T Hardaway, X-man, Willis, and Stockton - that's just the championship runs, so you have to add 88-90' and 99-00' where he was always outplayed... So that's an absolute shit-ton and nowhere near top 30.. laughable

[Roundball_Rock]

And Roundball recently provided analysis showing that he was outplayed a shit-ton by the opponent's 2nd option - 4 times he had lower gamescore than the opponent's 2nd option during the championship runs and was outplayed several other series that gamescore didn't catch.

More deception. That data showed Pippen outplayed the opposing #2 90% of the time (in one of those Pippen played only 7 minutes in one game in the 97' ECF--Pippen outplayed Hardaway in the 4 other games) in the NBA finals/ECF/ECSF and 85% total. He often outplayed the opposing team's #1.

Pippen Vs. Opposing #2 By Series

Game scores: Pippen 17.7, Vandeweghe 8.0
Game scores: Pippen 20.8, Hawkins 16.9
Game scores: Pippen 20.2, Dumars 7.1
Game scores: Pippen 17.5, Worthy 11.0
Game scores: Pippen 24.5, Seikaly 15.9
Game scores: Pippen 14.9, McDaniel 12.2
Game scores: Pippen 17.7, Daughtery 15.7
Game scores: Pippen 18.1, Porter 12.5
Game scores: Pippen 10.3, Willis 9.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.2, Daughtery 13.6
Game scores: Pippen 15.7, Starks 8.4
Game scores: Pippen 15.6, K. Johnson 10.2
Game scores: L. Johnson 15.8, Pippen 14.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.8, Penny 15.4
Game scores: Pippen 22.7, T. Hardaway 9.3
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Starks 8.1
Game scores: Pippen 16.6, Penny 15.6
Game scores: Kemp 18.9, Pippen 13.4
Game scores: Howard 14.0, Pippen 12.0
Game scores: Pippen 16.4, Laettner 9.4
Games scores: T. Hardaway 11.6*, Pippen* 10.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9
Game scores: Pippen 16.2, Kittles 10.4
Game scores: Pippen 16.9, Mason 10.7
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Smits 10.9
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Stockton 10.0

Pretty clear: Pippen>the other #2 in 22 of 26 series, including every single one in the first threepeat. 2 of the 4 series where Pippen was outplayed were brief first round series (3 and 4 game series) that would have sample size corrected over a full series in favor of Pippen, the superior player by far over Larry Johnson and Howard. Another was the 97' ECF where Pippen outplayed Hardaway when both players were healthy in the first four games (Pippen played only 7 minutes in Game 5, although that basically supplied the Bull's win margin as the two teams were equal the rest of the way.)

This doesn't even get to Pippen often outproducing the other #1...

*Pippen 12.7, Hardaway 9.6 through the first four games. Pippen played only 7 minutes in Game 5 and got only a 3.2 game score as a result.

[AlternativeAcc.]

More deception. That data showed Pippen outplayed the opposing #2 90% of the time in the NBA finals/ECF/ECSF and 85% total. He often outplayed the opposing team's #1.

Pippen Vs. Opposing #2 By Series

Game scores: Pippen 17.7, Vandeweghe 8.0
Game scores: Pippen 20.8, Hawkins 16.9
Game scores: Pippen 20.2, Dumars 7.1
Game scores: Pippen 17.5, Worthy 11.0
Game scores: Pippen 24.5, Seikaly 15.9
Game scores: Pippen 14.9, McDaniel 12.2
Game scores: Pippen 17.7, Daughtery 15.7
Game scores: Pippen 18.1, Porter 12.5
Game scores: Pippen 10.3, Willis 9.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.2, Daughtery 13.6
Game scores: Pippen 15.7, Starks 8.4
Game scores: Pippen 15.6, K. Johnson 10.2
Game scores: L. Johnson 15.8, Pippen 14.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.8, Penny 15.4
Game scores: Pippen 22.7, T. Hardaway 9.3
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Starks 8.1
Game scores: Pippen 16.6, Penny 15.6
Game scores: Kemp 18.9, Pippen 13.4
Game scores: Howard 14.0, Pippen 12.0
Game scores: Pippen 16.4, Laettner 9.4
Games scores: T. Hardaway 11.6, Pippen 10.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9
Game scores: Pippen 16.2, Kittles 10.4
Game scores: Pippen 16.9, Mason 10.7
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Smits 10.9
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Stockton 10.0

Pretty clear: Pippen>the other #2 in 22 of 26 series, including every single one in the first threepeat. 2 of the 4 series where Pippen was outplayed were brief first round series (3 and 4 game series) that would have sample size corrected over a full series in favor of Pippen, the superior player by far over Larry Johnson and Howard.

This doesn't even get to Pippen often outproducing the other #1...

Damn

Damn.

[3ball]

More deception. That data showed Pippen outplayed the opposing #2 90% of the time (in one of those Pippen played only 7 minutes in one game in the 97' ECF--Pippen outplayed Hardaway in the 4 other games) in the NBA finals/ECF/ECSF and 85% total. He often outplayed the opposing team's #1.

Pippen Vs. Opposing #2 By Series

Game scores: Pippen 17.7, Vandeweghe 8.0
Game scores: Pippen 20.8, Hawkins 16.9
Game scores: Pippen 20.2, Dumars 7.1
Game scores: Pippen 17.5, Worthy 11.0
Game scores: Pippen 24.5, Seikaly 15.9
Game scores: Pippen 14.9, McDaniel 12.2
Game scores: Pippen 17.7, Daughtery 15.7
Game scores: Pippen 18.1, Porter 12.5
Game scores: Pippen 10.3, Willis 9.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.2, Daughtery 13.6
Game scores: Pippen 15.7, Starks 8.4
Game scores: Pippen 15.6, K. Johnson 10.2
Game scores: L. Johnson 15.8, Pippen 14.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.8, Penny 15.4
Game scores: Pippen 22.7, T. Hardaway 9.3
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Starks 8.1
Game scores: Pippen 16.6, Penny 15.6
Game scores: Kemp 18.9, Pippen 13.4
Game scores: Howard 14.0, Pippen 12.0
Game scores: Pippen 16.4, Laettner 9.4
Games scores: T. Hardaway 11.6*, Pippen* 10.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9
Game scores: Pippen 16.2, Kittles 10.4
Game scores: Pippen 16.9, Mason 10.7
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Smits 10.9
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Stockton 10.0

Pippen had higher gamescore than the opposing #2 in 22 of 26 series


including every single one in the first threepeat. 2 of the 4 series where Pippen was outplayed were brief first round series (3 and 4 game series) that would have sample size corrected over a full series in favor of Pippen, the superior player by far over Larry Johnson and Howard.

This doesn't even get to Pippen often outproducing the other #1...

*Pippen 12.7, Hardaway 9.6 through the first four games. Pippen played only 7 minutes in Game 5 and got only a 3.2 game score as a result.

^^^^^ exactly

4 times he had lower gamescore than the opponent's 2nd option during the championship runs and was outplayed several other series that gamescore didn't catch... Overall, he was outplayed by Kemp, Penny, Howard, Smits, T Hardaway, X-man, Willis, and Stockton - that's just the championship runs, so you have to add 88-90' and 99-00' where he was always outplayed... So that's an absolute shit-ton and nowhere near top 30.. laughable

[Roundball_Rock]

Damn

Damn.

What does he want? 100%? :oldlol: Jordan himself isn't even 100% versus Pippen. The real question is the other "star" #2s...

Game scores: Pippen 20.2, Dumars 7.1
Game scores: Pippen 17.5, Worthy 11.0
Game scores: Pippen 17.7, Daughtery 15.7
Game scores: Pippen 15.2, Daughtery 13.6
Game scores: Pippen 15.6, K. Johnson 10.2
Game scores: Pippen 15.8, Penny 15.4
Game scores: Pippen 22.7, T. Hardaway 9.3
Game scores: Pippen 16.6, Penny 15.6
Game scores: Kemp 18.9, Pippen 13.4
Games scores: T. Hardaway 11.6, Pippen 10.8 (Pippen ahead 12.7 to 9.6 before early Game 5 departure)
Game scores: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Stockton 10.0

So all these guys people like 3ball and the rest tell you are much better than Pippen and he consistently outplays them. The only real exception here is the 96' series against Seattle, and Pippen had three injuries during that run.

Let's accept their argument that Pippen was a total fraud. If so, what does that say about his era? That a "scrub" like this was a MVP candidate, superstar, all-NBA 1st team and was crushing the opposition's #2 consistently? The logical conclusion of their claims is that MJ played in a weak era. :lol If Pippen sucks, all the guys listed above suck even more...

[3ball]

What does he want? 100%? :oldlol: Jordan himself isn't even 100% versus Pippen. The real question is the other "star" #2s...

Game scores: Pippen 20.2, Dumars 7.1
Game scores: Pippen 17.5, Worthy 11.0
Game scores: Pippen 17.7, Daughtery 15.7
Game scores: Pippen 15.2, Daughtery 13.6
Game scores: Pippen 15.6, K. Johnson 10.2
Game scores: Pippen 15.8, Penny 15.4
Game scores: Pippen 22.7, T. Hardaway 9.3
Game scores: Pippen 16.6, Penny 15.6
Game scores: Kemp 18.9, Pippen 13.4
Games scores: T. Hardaway 11.6, Pippen 10.8 (Pippen ahead 12.7 to 9.6 before early Game 5 departure)
Game scores: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Stockton 10.0

So all these guys people like 3ball and the rest tell you are much better than Pippen and he consistently outplays them. The only real exception here is the 96' series against Seattle, and Pippen had three injuries during that run.

Let's accept their argument that Pippen was a total fraud. If so, what does that say about his era? That a "scrub" like this was a MVP candidate, superstar, all-NBA 1st team and was crushing the opposition's #2 consistently? The logical conclusion of their claims is that MJ played in a weak era. :lol If Pippen sucks, all the guys listed above suck even more...

Pippen was outplayed a lot - at least 8 times during the 6 championship runs, and many more otherwise - MJ won 10+ series where pip was outplayed

[3ball]

I forgot that juwan Howard destroyed him

No wonder that series was so much tighter than it should've been

[Vino24]

I like that with each post 3ball’s responses are getting shorter and shorter. Guy is going to be reduced to a period :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

like that with each post 3ball’s responses are getting shorter and shorter. Guy is going to be reduced to a period

:oldlol: He is going to run to his alts.


Pippen was outplayed a lot - at least 8 times during the 6 championship runs, and many more otherwise - MJ won 10+ series where pip was outplayed

What does he want? 100%? Jordan himself isn't even 100% versus Pippen. The real question is the other "star" #2s...

Game scores: Pippen 20.2, Dumars 7.1
Game scores: Pippen 17.5, Worthy 11.0
Game scores: Pippen 17.7, Daughtery 15.7
Game scores: Pippen 15.2, Daughtery 13.6
Game scores: Pippen 15.6, K. Johnson 10.2
Game scores: Pippen 15.8, Penny 15.4
Game scores: Pippen 22.7, T. Hardaway 9.3
Game scores: Pippen 16.6, Penny 15.6
Game scores: Kemp 18.9, Pippen 13.4
Games scores: T. Hardaway 11.6, Pippen 10.8 (Pippen ahead 12.7 to 9.6 before early Game 5 departure)
Game scores: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Stockton 10.0

So all these guys people like 3ball and the rest tell you are much better than Pippen and he consistently outplays them. The only real exception here is the 96' series against Seattle, and Pippen had three injuries during that run.

Let's accept their argument that Pippen was a total fraud. If so, what does that say about his era? That a "scrub" like this was a MVP candidate, superstar, all-NBA 1st team and was crushing the opposition's #2 consistently? The logical conclusion of their claims is that MJ played in a weak era. If Pippen sucks, all the guys listed above suck even more..

[Roundball_Rock]

Let's look at some Wade series for a quick comp.

Wade versus Sidekicks (2011-2014 Finals/ECFs)

Deng 11.4, Wade 11.1
Wade 22.7, Terry 13.4
Rondo 18.9, Wade 15.4
Westbrook 18.9, Wade 16.4
Wade 11.7, West 11.2
Wade 14.9, Parker 11.2 (15.9 if you consider Duncan the #2)
Wade 15.7, West 11.7
Duncan 12.9, Wade 7.9

So Wade had a 50-50 split in these 8 series. You could do this with anyone. Gasol. Klay. Pierce (2008-2010 run). Parker. You are going to be hard pressed to find the level of consistent superiority Pippen displayed. Maybe Kobe is the one exception.

The Spurs did not have a clear cut #2 but Duncan was first team all-NBA and Parker second in 13'. In 14' Parker was the only all-star on the Spurs so they switched.

[RogueBorg]

Pippen was perceived as a superstar in the 90's.





No where near to the extent he is viewed today. No where near. He was perceived as very good, but by the time Jordan came back in 1995, the Bulls were a mess, and Pippen was the face of the team.

[Roundball_Rock]

No where near to the extent he is viewed today. No where near. He was perceived as very good

You are mixing other anti-Pippen MJ fan narratives. The 95' Bulls were litigated yesterday (short story: they had the #2 SRS in the East before Jordan came back and were strong after the all-star break).

I am not sure what you mean by "no where near to the extent he is viewed today." He was viewed as a superstar then as in now. When people talked about the top players in the game his name would always come up. Was he ever #1? No but he was no different than Chris Paul or Harden or Kawhi in their primes as recent examples of top 5 players or prime Ewing or prime Drexler then.

The real revisionism is claiming Kemp, Kevin Johnson, Vin Baker types were considered equal to Pippen.

Why does this make MJ fans insecure? Wade was a top 5 guy in 11' and a top 10 guy after that for a while with LeBron. Davis is top 5 today with LeBron. Kobe and Shaq were top 5 together. Durant and Curry. None of these fan bases are obsessed with attacking the other half of the duo 24/7/365--only MJ fans...why?

[3ball]

.
1989 and 1990 Playoffs


KJ.... 21/11 on 49%... 21.4 PER.. 5.8 bpm.. 0.169 ws/48... upset Magic's 1 seed to make WCF
Pip.... 16/5. on 48%... 16.5 PER.. 4.3 bpm.. 0.127 ws/48... cost Bulls 2 rings with poor play


MJ would 3-peat from 89-91' with KJ (the Magic Johnson killer)..

No?

[3ball]

.
1989 and 1990 Playoffs


KJ.... 21/11 on 49%... 21.4 PER.. 5.8 bpm.. 0.169 ws/48... upset Magic's 1 seed to make WCF
Pip.... 16/5. on 48%... 16.5 PER.. 4.3 bpm.. 0.127 ws/48... cost Bulls 2 rings with poor play


MJ would 3-peat from 89-91' with KJ (the Magic Johnson killer)..

No?

No one.. lol

Because it's clear that MJ would easily 3-peat with KJ from 89-91'

Then he'd take a year off and then comeback to 3-peat with kemp

Easy for the goat... 3-peat in his sleep... Pippen simply won the "play with MJ" lottery