How many titles if Pippen play for the Sonics from 1987 onwards??

[Lebron23]

He was originally drafted by the Sonics in 1987, but they traded him for Olden Polynice. Let's say Pippen was added to the lineup of the Sonics in 1993 when Payton and Kemp began playing at an all star level.

[Roundball_Rock]

Payton was the #2 pick so they wouldn't get him with Pippen in Seattle but Pippen, Kemp (a low pick) plus Schrempf, Hawkins would be a core that could compete with anyone and would do better than the same group did with Payton as their best player.

The one issue is Schrempf also played SF but they could put Pippen at PG (like Portland did later) or instead of acquiring Schrempf acquire a similar caliber player at C or PG.

They probably win 2-3.

[Norcaliblunt]

Butterfly effect. If that happens your mom aborts you.

[3ball]

93' Kemp WCF vs Suns... 21/9/3.. 66.2 ts.. 3.4 blk.. 1.2 stl

93' Pip Finals.. vs Suns... 21/9/7.. 45.6 ts.. 1.0 blk.. 2.0 stl



96' Kemp.. Finals... 23/10/3 on 63.3 ts
96' Pippen Finals..... 16/8/5 on 42.9 ts

[ImKobe]

Payton was the #2 pick so they wouldn't get him with Pippen in Seattle but Pippen, Kemp (a low pick) plus Schrempf, Hawkins would be a core that could compete with anyone and would do better than the same group did with Payton as their best player.

The one issue is Schrempf also played SF but they could put Pippen at PG (like Portland did later) or instead of acquiring Schrempf acquire a similar caliber player at C or PG.

They probably win 2-3.

You think they go from 1 Finals to winning 2-3 by replacing GP with Pippen? That's disrespecting Payton.

[3ball]

You think they go from 1 Finals to winning 2-3 by replacing GP with Pippen? That's disrespecting Payton.

In the West, Pippen would be far behind Hakeem/Robinson/Malone/Barkley at a minimum, and he isn't going from a scrawny rookie to leading Kemp to rings over those guys

MJ and the system raised Pippen - all the available information says so, along with words from the actual participants

Without MJ and the system to raise Pippen, he'd be just another good player, like Jimmy Butler as a best case scenario (and that's being extremely generous because Butler was naturally-tough, while Pippen was raised by MJ)... Odom as the most likely case for Pippen without mj..

Any idea that Pippen wins a single ring with kemp or gets through Hakeem/Robibson/Barkley/Malone is preposterous.. he needs MJ to beat those guys.. Kemp ain't enough.. if Pippen was barely enough for MJ, how would Kemp be enough for Pippen?

[bullettooth]

Butterfly effect. If that happens your mom aborts you.

:lol

[ImKobe]

In the West, Pippen would be far behind Hakeem/Robinson/Malone/Barkley at a minimum, and he isn't going from a scrawny rookie to leading Kemp to rings over those guys

MJ and the system raised Pippen - all the available information says so, along with words from the actual participants

Without MJ and the system to raise Pippen, he'd be just another good player, like Jimmy Butler as a best case scenario (and that's being extremely generous because Butler was naturally-tough, while Pippen was raised by MJ)... Odom as the most likely case for Pippen without mj..

Any idea that Pippen wins a single ring with kemp or gets through Hakeem/Robibson/Barkley/Malone is preposterous.. he needs MJ to beat those guys.. Kemp ain't enough.. if Pippen was barely enough for MJ, how would Kemp be enough for Pippen?

Yup. How much better is Kemp compared to '94 Horace Grant? We saw Pippen melt down against the Knicks and lose a bunch of close games due to his terrible shooting, not to mention him quitting on his team in a tie game in a must-win situation.

[3ball]

Did y'all see what happened to Pippen in 1994 Playoffs?... That guy isn't leading Kemp to a ring... That guy needs the goat to win rings, especially over monsters in the West like Malone/Barkley/Robinson/Hakeem

And you guys realize that no one at the time would think Pippen/Kemp could get a single ring

Do you all realize that?

That's how much lebron fans/media are trying to inflate this guy that now it's debate whether he'd get 2-3 rings... A joke

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Did y'all see what happened to Pippen in 1994 Playoffs?... That guy isn't leading Kemp to a ring... That guy needs the goat to win rings, especially over monsters in the West like Malone/Barkley/Robinson/Hakeem

And you guys realize that no one at the time would think Pippen/Kemp could get a single ring

Do you all realize that?

That's how much lebron fans/media are trying to inflate this guy that now it's debate whether he'd get 2-3 rings... A joke

Pippen went to game 7 in the 2nd round and was a bad call away from advancing. That's as good as you can ask for when Horace Grant is your 2nd fiddle. Shaq\Penny couldn't even win a finals game with Horace as their 3rd fiddle.

[3ball]

Pippen went to game 7 in the 2nd round and was a bad call away from advancing. That's as good as you can ask for when Horace Grant is your 2nd fiddle. Shaq\Penny couldn't even win a finals game with Horace as their 3rd fiddle.

that's not what happened

Kukoc's miracle saved them from an 0-3 deficit, which turned the series around

The Knicks would sweep the bulls any other time... And Pippen averaged 21 on 40% - he wasn't leading the bulls anywhere - he was stinking up the joint

And Pippen committed a dumb foul to lose game 5 - the first thing you learn in grade school is "don't foul a jumpshooter"... so that was three chokes in that series (sit out game.. dumb foul game.. bad game 7).. the most chokes by anyone ever - that series showed what everyone already knew - he needed mj

[HBK_Kliq_2]

that's not what happened

Kukoc's miracle saved them from an 0-3 deficit, which turned the series around

The Knicks would sweep the bulls any other time... And Pippen averaged 21 on 40% - he wasn't leading the bulls anywhere - he was stinking up the joint

And Pippen committed a dumb foul to lose game 5 - the first thing you learn in grade school is "don't foul a jumpshooter"... so that was three chokes in that series (sit out game.. dumb foul game.. bad game 7).. the most chokes by anyone ever - that series showed what everyone already knew - he needed mj

A shot turned around a series? So if Ray Allen misses that shot in 2013 you can say Lebron isn't a champion that year, 2002 Horry shot, 2019 Kawhi shot, and so on and son. The shot still went in from Kukoc and the series was still pushed to 7 games.

[Roundball_Rock]

You think they go from 1 Finals to winning 2-3 by replacing GP with Pippen? That's disrespecting Payton.

One guy is #53 all-time, the other is #21 all-time in the ESPN rankings, for instance. Pippen also hits his peak sooner giving them more cracks at it.

Pippen had some issues against NY--he still shot slightly better than MJ did the previous year against a weaker version of the same defense.

[3ball]

One guy is #53 all-time, the other is #21 all-time in the ESPN rankings, for instance. Pippen also hits his peak sooner giving them more cracks at it.

Pippen had some issues against NY--he still shot slightly better than MJ did the previous year against a weaker version of the same defense.


Kyrie's ORtg advantage means more than Pippen's DRtg advantage because Kyrie's net rating is higher:



Net efficiency

Pippen 1998 Playoffs... 8.3 (https://stats.nba.com/player/937/advanced/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)
Pippen 1998 Finals....... 7.0 (https://stats.nba.com/player/937/advanced/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

Pippen 1997 Playoffs... 8.6 (https://stats.nba.com/player/937/advanced/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)
Pippen 1997 Finals....... 1.1 (https://stats.nba.com/player/937/advanced/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

Kyrie 2016 Playoffs..... 10.0 (https://stats.nba.com/player/202681/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs)
Kyrie 2016 Finals........... 6.2 (https://stats.nba.com/player/202681/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

Kyrie 2017 Playoffs...... 9.4 (https://stats.nba.com/player/202681/advanced/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Playoffs)


In the 16' and 17 playoffs, Kyrie averaged 26 on 46% compared to 17 on 41% for Pippen in 96-98'.. such a big gap has always meant the 26 guy is better, but you guys are just hypocrites/contradictory regarding Pippen

[Roundball_Rock]

No one thinks Kyrie is that good outside of insecure MJ stans who are doing it solely to push an agenda. :violin:

Learn from LeBron stans who are secure.

[3ball]

No one thinks Kyrie is that good outside of insecure MJ stans who are doing it solely to push an agenda. :violin:

Learn from LeBron stans who are secure.

Pippen was a selfish, low-producing, low character bum

The worst kind of teammate... yet MJ was the goat modern winner with him .. so every fact reveals that MJ is goat... :bowdown:

And it was cringeworthy because Pippen was the guy getting saved in fights and teammates tolerated his frequent low production, yet he was the scummiest dude

[Roundball_Rock]

No one thinks Kyrie is that good outside of insecure MJ stans who are doing it solely to push an agenda. :violin:

Learn from LeBron stans who are secure.

...

[HoopsNY]

He probably wins at least 1. I'm not sure Pippen evolves the same way without MJ and Phil. I do think he would have been good, but not nearly as good as he was in Chicago. The real interesting thing would have been to see how MJ did with Olden Polynice. Grant would have become the #2 and maybe averaged 17-18 ppg at best. But I don't think Chicago goes on to win 6 titles in 6 appearances. Mj probably wins half the titles without Pippen.

[3ball]

He probably wins at least 1. I'm not sure Pippen evolves the same way without MJ and Phil. I do think he would have been good, but not nearly as good as he was in Chicago. The real interesting thing would have been to see how MJ did with Olden Polynice. Grant would have become the #2 and maybe averaged 17-18 ppg at best. But I don't think Chicago goes on to win 6 titles in 6 appearances. Mj probably wins half the titles without Pippen.
Do the 96' Sonics make the Finals if we replace Kemp with Pippen?

S Kemp 96 Playoffs... 20.9 on 57%
Pippen'. 96 Playoffs... 16.9 on 39%


Obviously not... Pippen was barely beating the West with Jordan, so there's no way he beats Barkley/Robinson/Malone with a sidekick much worse than Jordan

He wins if it's a threesome of Payton/Kemp/Pippen... But just Pippen with a sidekick that was WAY worse than MJ?... Positively zero rings... Early exits like 94' 99', and 00'

[warriorfan]

Kyrie's ORtg advantage means more than Pippen's DRtg advantage because Kyrie's net rating is higher:



Net efficiency

Pippen 1998 Playoffs... 8.3 (https://stats.nba.com/player/937/advanced/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)
Pippen 1998 Finals....... 7.0 (https://stats.nba.com/player/937/advanced/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

Pippen 1997 Playoffs... 8.6 (https://stats.nba.com/player/937/advanced/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)
Pippen 1997 Finals....... 1.1 (https://stats.nba.com/player/937/advanced/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

Kyrie 2016 Playoffs..... 10.0 (https://stats.nba.com/player/202681/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs)
Kyrie 2016 Finals........... 6.2 (https://stats.nba.com/player/202681/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

Kyrie 2017 Playoffs...... 9.4 (https://stats.nba.com/player/202681/advanced/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Playoffs)


In the 16' and 17 playoffs, Kyrie averaged 26 on 46% compared to 17 on 41% for Pippen in 96-98'.. such a big gap has always meant the 26 guy is better, but you guys are just hypocrites/contradictory regarding Pippen

This seems pretty irrefutable.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Sonics couldn't get out the first round in 94' and 95' with Kemp (who was the Seattle #2 behind Payton, kids). :oldlol:

Kemp 15/10/3 on 37% as a PF in one of the biggest chokes of all-time in 94'--the first time a #1 seed lost to a #8 seed.

Kemp's efficiency fell through the floor when he had to be the #1 option in Cleveland (Seattle got Vin Baker to replace him in the trade--not exactly Karl Malone back). He shot 44% as a big man who didn't take threes.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Not a big fan of a Kemp and Pippen duo. GP's personality was perfect for Kemp, and I read that he'd motivate him constantly. Keeping him "on track". Payton blames himself for Kemp going to Cleveland...which is extreme. But that's how he feels.

Don't think its a stretch at all to say Pip/Kemp win zero.

BTW 3ball, those numbers from Kyrie are great. If only for those playoff runs.

[3ball]

The Sonics couldn't get out the first round in 94' and 95' with Kemp (who was the Seattle #2 behind Payton, kids). :oldlol:


.

That's the kind of legendary chokes that Mr. Sit Out and Migraine Pippen has, yet you think Pippen/Kemp could win the West?..... Lol

And yeah kemp was a drunk who aged poorly

[Roundball_Rock]

:lol 6 rings as a "choker." How dumb do you think people are, outside the MJ cult?

[3ball]

:lol 6 rings as a "choker." How dumb do you think people are, outside the MJ cult?


You can only fake cheerlead because the stats and historical record speak for itself:


- 17 on 41% (pippen) < 26 on 46% (kyrie)
- last in clutch stats for 97' and 98' Playoffs/Finals
- several legendary chokes to his resume
- risked teammate injury so he could postpone his surgery (team had to work harder w/out him)
- demanded trade mid-season after getting dominated by Kemp, Schrempf and Penny in previous playoffs

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osmj-cicFH8&t=1343s

Payton speaks about Kemp;

-helping him in practice
-covering for him
-feeling guilty about Kemp's decline in Cleveland

Not enough talk about fit and intangibles. Bunch of neckbeards on here just wanna plug and play like its 2K :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

The historical record is out there. MJ stans avoiding the facts like a vampire avoids sunlight. :roll:

[3ball]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osmj-cicFH8&t=1343s

Payton speaks about Kemp;

-helping him in practice
-covering for him
-feeling guilty about Kemp's decline in Cleveland

Not enough is talked about fit or intangibles. Bunch of neckbeards on here just wanna plug and play like its 2K.

Yes, it's always a great fit when one guy forces another guy to take ridiculous volume and usage and average 4-5 more than everyone in history

What a great fit.. no way anyone else could've been better... :rolleyes:... It's standard to win the title as scoring champ and 10-30 more than everyone in every series... That's soooo optimal

What a bunch of shallow, results-oriented lanes... :facepalm:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yes, it's always a great fit when one guy forces another guy to take ridiculous volume and usage and average 4-5 more than everyone in history

What a great fit.. no way anyone else could've been better... :rolleyes:... It's standard to win the title as scoring champ and 10-30 more than everyone in every series

What a bunch of shallow, results-oriented lanes... :facepalm:

Not even talking about Jordan and Pippen. You misread.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah fit is so important you could plug and play Kemp, Hornacek, Mark Jackson, Kevin Johnson (any 90's all-star!) in place of Pippen and get exactly the same results, right?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Its alright, Rockball.

You can quote me ... :lol

[3ball]

Yeah fit is so important you could plug and play Kemp, Hornacek, Mark Jackson, Kevin Johnson (any 90's all-star!) in place of Pippen and get exactly the same results, right?





:biggums:... How?



Kareem's Playoff Averages During Various Championship Runs:


1982: 20.0 ppg.. 8.5 rpg... :roll:

1985: 21.0 ppg.. 8.1 rpg... :roll:

1987: 19.2 ppg.. 6.8 rpg... :roll:

1988: 14.1 ppg.. 5.5 rpg... :roll:






Through 13 Seasons Each


REGULAR SEASON

Jordan (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#all_advanced).... 31.5 ppg.. 58.0 ts.. 35.3 usg.. 120 ortg.. 29.1 PER.. 0.274 ws/48.. 9.0 bpm
Kareem (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html#1970-1982-sum:per_game)... 26.5 ppg.. 59.0 ts.. 25.1 usg.. 118 ortg.. 26.5 PER.. 0.255 ws/48.. 7.9 bpm


PLAYOFFS

Jordan (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#all_playoffs_advanced).... 33.5 ppg.. 56.8 ts.. 35.6 usg.. 118 ortg.. 28.6 PER.. 0.255 ws/48.. 10.1 bpm
Kareem (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html#1970-1982-sum:playoffs_advanced)... 29.1 ppg.. 56.7 ts.. 26.1 usg.. 118 ortg.. 25.8 PER.. 0.232 ws/48.... 8.7 bpm


FINALS

Jordan'.... 33.5 ppg.. 6 fmvp
Kareem... 26.0 ppg.. 2 fmvp


SUMMARY - jordan has a massive statistical and winning edge over kareem.. this is despite Kareem not winning much in the 70's and playing for himself, while MJ was restricted by a winning system and brand of ball

Obviously, if we included 83-89' for Kareem (his mostly carried years), MJ would've beaten him by even more

* ortg was only available for 78-82' for Kareem, so his high season from that period was used.. bpm was available for 74-82' (most of the period in question), so the average was used

[aceman]

Would Seattle know how to use Pippen? In the early 90s there were years where he was the only point forward in league.

[SATAN]

Literally you don't know what would happen at all or the consequences. Who ****ing cares. The actual coaches at that time couldn't answer this.



















































































Jordan 1-10, 0 rings.

[Manny98]

More than Jordan