Pippen Compared to Opposing Sidekicks in NBA Playoffs (1991-1993, 1995-1998)

[Roundball_Rock]

Even with Pippen’s greatest strengths, defense and operating the offense efficiently as a facilitator, not really showing up on the stat sheet, Pippen still consistently outproduced the #2 option on the other side and often the #1 option as well on the stat sheet. The real difference was even greater when you factor in GOAT level defense and his impact on making his teammates better. :bowdown:

1991 First Round Versus New York

Pippen 20/9/5 on 50% with 3 steals and 1 block
Vandeweghe 17/3/1 41% with 0 steals and 0 blocks

Game scores: Pippen 17.7, Vandeweghe 8.0

Pippen outplayed the Knicks’ #1 option while he was there. Ewing had a game score of 8.9 and was 17/10/2 on 40%.

Verdict: Pippen

1991 Second Round Versus Philadelphia

Pippen 23/9/6 on 57% with 2 steals
Hawkins 20/6/3 on on 43% with 1 steal, 1 block

Game scores: Pippen 20.8, Hawkins 16.9

Verdict: Pippen

1991 ECF Versus Detroit

Pippen 22/8/5 on 48% with 3 steals, 2 block
Dumars 13/2/3 on 35% with 2 steals

Game scores: Pippen 20.2, Dumars 7.1

Pippen outplayed Isiah Thomas, Detroit’s #1, who had a game score of 11.4 on 17/5/6.

Verdict: Pippen

1991 NBA Finals Versus Los Angeles

Pippen 21/9/7 on 45% with 2 steals, 1 block
Worthy 19/3/2 on 48% with 1 steal

Game scores: Pippen 17.5, Worthy 11.0

Verdict: Pippen

1992 First Round Versus Miami

Pippen 24/6/7 on 55% with 2 steals, 1 block
Seikaly 21/10/1 on 54% with 2 blocks

Game scores: Pippen 24.5, Seikaly 15.9

Pippen outproduced Miami’s #1 option, Glen Rice, who went 19/3/2 on 38% with a game score of 7.4.

Verdict: Pippen

1992 Second Round against the Knicks

Pippen 16/8/7 on 40% with 2 steals, 1 block
McDaniel 19/6/2 on 50% with 1 steal

Game scores: Pippen 14.9, McDaniel 12.2.

Pippen comparable to Ewing’s (NY’s #1) 15.9 on 22/11/2 on 49%.

Verdict: Pippen

1992 Conference Finals against the Cavs

Pippen 20/11/6 on 47% with 2 steals, 2 blocks
Daughtery 17/10/4 on 47%

Game scores: Pippen 17.7, Daughtery 15.7

Pippen outproduced Cleveland’s #1 Price, who had a game score of 12.8 on 19/2/5 on 48%.

Verdict: Pippen

1992 NBA Finals against Portland

Pippen 21/8/8 on 48% with 2 steals, 1 block
Porter 16/4/5 on 47% with 1 steal

Game scores: Pippen 18.1, Porter 12.5

Pippen matches Portland’s #1, peak Drexler, who had a game score of 18.4 on 25/7/5 on 41%.

Verdict: Pippen

1993 First Round against Atlanta

Pippen 15/4/5 on 42% with 2 steals
Willis 17/8/1 on 47% with 1 steal

Game score: Pippen 10.3, Willis 9.8

Verdict: Close but Pippen

1993 Second Round Versus Cleveland

Pippen 18/6/5 on 48% with 3 steals, 1 block
Daughtery 16/10/4 on 56% with 1 block

Game scores: Pippen 15.2, Daughtery 13.6

Once again Pippen outplayed the #1 option on the other side. Price had a game score of 9.9 on 14/2/6 on 51%.

Verdict: Pippen

1993 Conference Finals Versus Knicks

Pippen 23/7/4 on 51% with 2 steals, 1 block
Starks 15/4/6 on on 45% with 1 steal

Game scores: Pippen 15.7, Starks 8.4

Pippen close to Ewing in scoring, who scored 26 PPG as the New York #1.

Verdict: Pippen

1993 NBA Finals Versus Suns

Pippen 21/9/8 on 44% with 2 steals, 1 block
K. Johnson 17/3/7 on 42% with 1 steal

Game scores: Pippen 15.6, Johnson 10.2

Verdict: Pippen

[Roundball_Rock]

1995 First Round Versus Charlotte

Pippen 16/7/6 on 51% with 2 steals, 1 block
L. Johnson 21/6/3 on 48% with 1 steal, 1 block

Game scores: Pippen 14.8, Johnson 15.8

Verdict: Johnson

1995 Second Round versus Orlando

Pippen 19/10/6 on 41% with 1 steal, 1 block
Penny 19/4/8 on 44% with 2 steals, 1 block

Game scores: Pippen 15.8, Penny 15.4

Verdict: Close but Pippen

1996 First Round versus Miami

Pippen 19/11/7 on 56% with 3 steals, 2 blocks
Hardaway 18/2/6 on 47% with 1 steal

Game scores: Pippen 22.7, Hardaway 9.3

Pippen outplayed Miami #1 Mourning, who had a game score of 9.3 on 18/6/1. Pippen actually had a slightly higher game score than Jordan.

Verdict: Pippen

1996 Second Round versus New York

Pippen 16/8/5 on 33% with 3 steals
Starks 14/3/3 on 38% with 2 steals

Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Starks 8.1

Verdict: Pippen

1996 ECF versus Orlando

Pippen 19/7/7 on 45% with 2 steals
Penny 26/4/4 on 47% with 1 steal

Game scores: Pippen 16.6, Penny 15.6

Verdict: Pippen

1996 NBA Finals versus Seattle

Pippen 16/8/5 on 34% with 2 steals, 1 block
Kemp 23/10/2 on 55% with 1 steal, 2 blocks

Game scores: Pippen 13.4, Kemp 18.9

With a trio of injuries Pippen struggled but was close to Seattle’s #1 Payton’s 14.4 game score, but Kemp outplayed him.

Verdict: Kemp

1997 First Round versus Washington

Pippen 17/9/3 on 39% with 1 steal, 1 block
Howard 19/6/2 on on 46% with 1 block

Game scores: Pippen 12.0, Howard 14.0

Howard outplayed Pippen but Pippen outplayed Washington’s #1 Webber, who had agame score of 10.9.

Verdict: Howard

1997 Second Round versus Atlanta

Pippen 22/6/6 on 43% with 1 steal
Laettner 16/7/3 on 36% with 1 steal, 1 block

Game scores: Pippen 16.4, Laettner 9.4

Atlanta was a tough team to assess but I used Laetnner as the #2 because he was their second all-star along with Mutumbo. Pippen had a higher game score than every Hawks player.

Verdict: Pippen

1997 Conference Finals versus Miami

Pippen 17/5/3 on 42% with 2 steals
Hardaway 17/5/6 on 35%

Games scores: Pippen 10.8, Hardaway 11.6

Pippen outplayed Miami’s #1 Mourning, who had a game score of 8.9 on 16/9/1.

Verdict: Hardaway

1997 NBA finals against Utah

Pippen 20/8/4 on 42% with 2 steals, 2 blocks
Stockton 15/4/9 on 50% with 2 steals, 1 block

Game scores: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9

Verdict: Draw

1998 First Round against New Jersey

Pippen 18/7/6 on 44% with 2 steals, 1 block
Cassell 2/1/2 on 33%
Kittles 16/5/3 on 43% with 1 steal, 1 block

Game scores: Pippen 16.2, Kittles 10.4.

Cassell went down in Game 1. At any rate, Pippen had a higher game score than any Net.

Verdict: Pippen

1998 Second Round against Charlotte

Pippen 18/7/5 on 44% with 3 steals, 1 block
Mason 13/8/4 on 51% with 1 steal

Game scores: Pippen 16.9, Mason 10.7

Pippen outplayed Charlotte’s #1 Rice, who had a game score of 13.6 on 23/5/2.

Verdict: Pippen

1998 Conference Finals versus Indiana

Pippen 17/8/5 on 39% with 2 steals, 1 block
Smits 16/5/1 on 55% with 1 block

Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Smits 10.9

Pippen outproduced Indiana’s #1 Miller, who went 17/2/2 for a game score of 11.6.

Verdict: Pippen

1998 NBA Finals

Pippen 16/7/5 on 41% with 2 steals, 1 block
Stockton 10/3/9 on 49% with 2 steals

Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Stockton 10.0

Verdict: Pippen

[Round Mound]

:applause::bowdown:

[SouBeachTalents]

https://media.giphy.com/media/NnGGHE0muVqpO/giphy.gif

[3ball]

.
OP cherry-picked 8 or 9 series, but Pippen was outscored in many series by the opponent's 2nd or 3rd best player

Too many to list


.
Kyrie averaged 6-10 more than Pippen in the playoffs and Finals with better efficiency:



Kyrie 16-17 Playoffs... 25.5 on 47%
Pip... 96-98 Playoffs... 17.6 on 41%
Pip... 91-93 Playoffs... 20.3 on 48%

Kyrie 16-17 Finals... 28.0 on 46%
Pippen all 6 Finals.. 19.0 on 42%



And Kyrie's ORtg advantage means more than Pippen's DRtg advantage because Kyrie's net rating is higher:



Net efficiency

Pippen 1998 Playoffs... 8.3 (https://stats.nba.com/player/937/advanced/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)
Pippen 1998 Finals....... 7.0 (https://stats.nba.com/player/937/advanced/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

Pippen 1997 Playoffs... 8.6 (https://stats.nba.com/player/937/advanced/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)
Pippen 1997 Finals....... 1.1 (https://stats.nba.com/player/937/advanced/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

Kyrie 2016 Playoffs..... 10.0 (https://stats.nba.com/player/202681/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs)
Kyrie 2016 Finals........... 6.2 (https://stats.nba.com/player/202681/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

Kyrie 2017 Playoffs...... 9.4 (https://stats.nba.com/player/202681/advanced/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Playoffs)


So kyrie is far superior, while Wade and AD are already ranked higher than Pippen

[Roundball_Rock]

OP cherry-picked 8 or 9 series

I literally listed every series during the title runs, plus 95'. :lol

MJ stans: MJ would go from scoring 33 in the 90's to 45 or 50 today because defense was so much tougher back in the day.
MJ stans: Kyrie scoring 24 today>Pippen scoring 22 in the 90's.

[RRR3]

.
OP cherry-picked 8 or 9 series, but Pippen was outscored in many series by the opponent's 2nd or 3rd best player

Too many to list


.
Kyrie averaged 6-10 more than Pippen in the playoffs and Finals with better efficiency:



Kyrie 16-17 Playoffs... 25.5 on 47%
Pip... 96-98 Playoffs... 17.6 on 41%
Pip... 91-93 Playoffs... 20.3 on 48%

Kyrie 16-17 Finals... 28.0 on 46%
Pippen all 6 Finals.. 19.0 on 42%



And Kyrie's ORtg advantage means more than Pippen's DRtg advantage because Kyrie's net rating is higher:



Net efficiency

Pippen 1998 Playoffs... 8.3 (https://stats.nba.com/player/937/advanced/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)
Pippen 1998 Finals....... 7.0 (https://stats.nba.com/player/937/advanced/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

Pippen 1997 Playoffs... 8.6 (https://stats.nba.com/player/937/advanced/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)
Pippen 1997 Finals....... 1.1 (https://stats.nba.com/player/937/advanced/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

Kyrie 2016 Playoffs..... 10.0 (https://stats.nba.com/player/202681/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs)
Kyrie 2016 Finals........... 6.2 (https://stats.nba.com/player/202681/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

Kyrie 2017 Playoffs...... 9.4 (https://stats.nba.com/player/202681/advanced/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Playoffs)


So kyrie is far superior, while Wade and AD are already ranked higher than Pippen
Literally no one thinks Kyrie is better than Pippen and it's got you all shook up :yaohappy:

[SouBeachTalents]

I literally listed every series during the title runs, plus 95'. :lol

MJ stans: MJ would go from scoring 33 to 45 or 50 today.
MJ stans: Kyrie scoring 24>Pippen scoring 22 n the 90's.
:oldlol:

3ball didn't even read the OP, like he doesn't even watch the games

[3ball]

Literally no one thinks Kyrie is better than Pippen and it's got you all shook up :yaohappy:

Literally no way be thought ingram was a star either

You guys don't know anything about basketball

That's the problem with today's game more than anything - a bunch of guys that never played and are geeks - these guys are the ones creating all the narratives, so we get stupid revisions of history that Pippen was good

The reality is that these same geeks that created all the stats are being hypocritical on Pippen, because Pippen's stats suck... But the stat geeks want to see lebron catch MJ, so let the revisions of history begin!!!! It's shameful

You couldn't pay me to watch today's game

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol:

3ball didn't even read the OP, like he doesn't even watch the games

:oldlol:

Notice even all the other MJ stans who always diminish Pippen are avoiding this thread like a vampire avoids sunlight? They know a L when they see it.

Pippen was 20/7/6 in his prime with GOAT level defense. "Sucked" :oldlol: . What sucked was the Chicago defense without Pippen there to run it...

[RRR3]

Literally no way be thought ingram was a star either

You guys don't know anything about basketball

That's the problem with today's game more than anything - a bunch of guys that never played and are geeks - these guys are the ones creating all the narratives, so we get stupid revisions of history that Pippen was good

The reality is that these same geeks that created all the stats are being hypocritical on Pippen, because Pippen's stats suck... But the stat geeks want to see lebron catch MJ, so let the revisions of history begin!!!! It's shameful

You couldn't pay me to watch today's game
How are you going to call us "geeks" when you admit you don't even watch the games today? You're literally basing everything off of stats...

[3ball]

:oldlol:

Notice even all the other MJ stans who always diminish Pippen are avoiding this thread like a vampire avoids sunlight? They know a L when they see it.

Pippen was 20/7/6 in his prime with GOAT level defense. "Sucked" :oldlol: . What sucked was the Chicago defense without Pippen there to run it...


1st three-peat - outplayed in the 92' ECSF by X-man... And the 93' 1st Round by Dominique or Willis, take your pick...

2nd three-peat - outplayed the entire 2nd three-peat including by Penny (twice including 95'), Schrempf, T Hardaway, Smits, Howard and Scrempf


^^^ that's a shit-ton for someone in his prime and to make MJ overcome.... :oldlol:.. thanks for showing the high frequency that prime Pippen got outplayed

[3ball]

.
When did Pippen outplay the only unanimous league MVP in league history?


2016 Finals Versus Warriors

Kyrie 27 on 46%
Curry 22 on 43%


Kyrie has always had a bigger edge over his matchup than Pippen, who was frequently outplayed in his prime - X-man, Kevin Willis, Juwan Howard, Smits, T Hardaway, Schrempf - that's 6 instances that OP concedes prime Pippen was outplayed

[RRR3]

How are you going to call us "geeks" when you admit you don't even watch the games today? You're literally basing everything off of stats...
Crickets from ol' 3braincells.

[3ball]

Crickets from ol' 3braincells.

No, my arguments for lebron have always been skill-based (his skillset is restricted to ball-dominance and weak jumpshooting skill)......

which I support with stats (his ball-dominance lowers teammates' assists, so the TEAM has low assists and gets massively out-assisted/destroyed on the championship level)

Or i'll say something like "lebron turns a high-assisted position (forward) into a low-assisted one, thus reducing the assist capacity of the team"

Or I'll say "lebron's ball-dominance doesn't shift defenses/wear down teams like the ball movement he faces at the championship level, so teams are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively (14' Finals)

Again, these are skill-based arguments supported by stats

[RRR3]

No, my arguments for lebron have always been skill-based (his skillset is restricted to ball-dominance and weak jumpshooting skill)......

which I support with stats (his ball-dominance lowers teammates' assists, so the TEAM has low assists and gets massively out-assisted/destroyed on the championship level)

Or i'll say something like "lebron turns a high-assisted position (forward) into a low-assisted one, thus reducing the assist capacity of the team"
How would you know anything about his skills when you don't watch him play? :yaohappy:

[3ball]

How would you know anything about his skills when you don't watch him play? :yaohappy:

I watched him until 2011

It was during those Finals that I turned to my sister and said "this guy doesn't know what to do without a live dribble"

From that point forward I realized he was a fraud and nowhere near Michael

Because my initial premise was correct, every inkling I've had about his game has been supported fully by stats when I would look

[RRR3]

I watched him until 2011

It was during those Finals that I turned to my sister and said "this guy doesn't know what to do without a live dribble"

From that point forward I realized he was a fraud and nowhere near Michael
It's pretty universally acknowledged that LeBron added things to his game after 2011. So you've been talking out of your ass for YEARS.

[3ball]

It's pretty universally acknowledged that LeBron added things to his game after 2011. So you've been talking out of your ass for YEARS.

He added a post game

A DeRozan-level post game.... Literally... They rank the same in post frequency and efficiency.

Just "adding" things to your game is a far cry from being all-time great or goat at those things

[Roundball_Rock]

How are you going to call us "geeks" when you admit you don't even watch the games today? You're literally basing everything off of stats...

:lol


2nd three-peat - outplayed the entire 2nd three-peat including by Penny (twice including 95'), Schrempf, T Hardaway, Smits, Howard and Scrempf

Do you think people are too dumb to read the facts in the OP? You guys are caught in your "Pippen sucks" bubble and losing touch with the rest of the world.


It's pretty universally acknowledged that LeBron added things to his game after 2011

So he admits he hasn't watched basketball in a decade. How much basketball has he ever watched? No real fan would stop watching for a decade.

So he hypes Kyrie 24/7 but admits he hasn't watched a single Kyrie game. :roll:

I bet he has never seen Pippen play.

[3ball]

Do you think people are too dumb to read the facts in the OP?



Your stats frequently showed the opponent with better stats in the series but you would still give the edge to Pippen

That's blatant bias... Anyone can see that.. you just didn't notice as you were typing it

Overall, your stats concede that Pippen was outplayed by X-man, Willis, Howard, Smits, T Hardaway, Penny and Scrempf - that's a shit ton!!!! How did mj overcome that!!!! Goat... That's how

[3ball]

.
Lebron fan makes long thread showing Pippen struggling mightily with his comp...

Meanwhile, MJ fans counter with this:


2016 Finals Versus Warriors


Kyrie 27 on 46%
Curry 22 on 43%


^^^ lebron's sidekick dominating the only unanimous MVP in league history...

Carry on... :roll::roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

I watched him until 2011
So you've literally never seen a second of Kyrie play? And we're supposed to take your analysis of him seriously :oldlol:

[3ball]

So you've literally never seen a second of Kyrie play? And we're supposed to take your analysis of him seriously :oldlol:

It's 2020 - only losers sit there and watch full games... winners take advantage of the NBA's weak policy and watch highlights on YouTube, thus allowing time for more important things

So I've seen plenty of kyrie, just like Ingram - the eye test told me they were easily better than Pippen's robotic skills, bricklaying, and woat clutch and the stats never disappoint (with Pippen comparisons)

[Roundball_Rock]

Your stats frequently showed the opponent with better stats in the series but you would still give the edge to Pippen

I went with the higher game score when in doubt. :lol Usually it was not even close...


Overall, your stats concede that Pippen was outplayed by X-man, Willis, Howard, Smits, T Hardaway, Penny and Scrempf

This guy is delusional. He also exposed that he didn't read the OP because Schrempf isn't even mentioned. :oldlol:


So you've literally never seen a second of Kyrie play? And we're supposed to take your analysis of him seriously

:roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen Vs. Opposing #2 By Series

Game scores: Pippen 17.7, Vandeweghe 8.0
Game scores: Pippen 20.8, Hawkins 16.9
Game scores: Pippen 20.2, Dumars 7.1
Game scores: Pippen 17.5, Worthy 11.0
Game scores: Pippen 24.5, Seikaly 15.9
Game scores: Pippen 14.9, McDaniel 12.2
Game scores: Pippen 17.7, Daughtery 15.7
Game scores: Pippen 18.1, Porter 12.5
Game scores: Pippen 10.3, Willis 9.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.2, Daughtery 13.6
Game scores: Pippen 15.7, Starks 8.4
Game scores: Pippen 15.6, K. Johnson 10.2
Game scores: L. Johnson 15.8, Pippen 14.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.8, Penny 15.4
Game scores: Pippen 22.7, T. Hardaway 9.3
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Starks 8.1
Game scores: Pippen 16.6, Penny 15.6
Game scores: Kemp 18.9, Pippen 13.4
Game scores: Howard 14.0, Pippen 12.0
Game scores: Pippen 16.4, Laettner 9.4
Games scores: T. Hardaway 11.6, Pippen 10.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9
Game scores: Pippen 16.2, Kittles 10.4
Game scores: Pippen 16.9, Mason 10.7
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Smits 10.9
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Stockton 10.0

Pretty clear: Pippen>the other #2 in 22 of 26 series, including every single one in the first threepeat. 2 of the 4 series where Pippen was outplayed were brief first round series (3 and 4 game series) that would have sample size corrected over a full series in favor of Pippen, the superior player by far over Larry Johnson and Howard.

This doesn't even get to Pippen often outproducing the other #1...

(For reference, 10.0 is considered an average game score, which you see often on the right side of the column for the other team's #2...)

:hammertime:

[3ball]

Pippen Vs. Opposing #2 By Series

Game scores: Pippen 17.7, Vandeweghe 8.0
Game scores: Pippen 20.8, Hawkins 16.9
Game scores: Pippen 20.2, Dumars 7.1
Game scores: Pippen 17.5, Worthy 11.0
Game scores: Pippen 24.5, Seikaly 15.9
Game scores: Pippen 14.9, McDaniel 12.2
Game scores: Pippen 17.7, Daughtery 15.7
Game scores: Pippen 18.1, Porter 12.5
Game scores: Pippen 10.3, Willis 9.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.2, Daughtery 13.6
Game scores: Pippen 15.7, Starks 8.4
Game scores: Pippen 15.6, K. Johnson 10.2
Game scores: L. Johnson 15.8, Pippen 14.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.8, Penny 15.4
Game scores: Pippen 22.7, T. Hardaway 9.3
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Starks 8.1
Game scores: Pippen 16.6, Penny 15.6
Game scores: Kemp 18.9, Pippen 13.4
Game scores: Howard 14.0, Pippen 12.0
Game scores: Pippen 16.4, Laettner 9.4
Games scores: T. Hardaway 11.6, Pippen 10.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9
Game scores: Pippen 16.2, Kittles 10.4
Game scores: Pippen 16.9, Mason 10.7
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Smits 10.9
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Stockton 10.0

Pretty clear: Pippen>the other #2 in 22 of 26 series, including every single one in the first threepeat. 2 of the 4 series where Pippen was outplayed were brief first round series (3 and 4 game series) that would have sample size corrected over a full series in favor of Pippen, the superior player by far over Larry Johnson and Howard.

This doesn't even get to Pippen often outproducing the other #1...

:hammertime:

So Pippen had lower gamescore 4 times during the championship runs, plus several other series that gamescore didn't capture, like the 92' ECSF and 93' 1st Round, among others

Overall, guys like Penny, Howard, Payton, Smits, T Hardaway, Willis and X-man outplayed prime Pippen

That's a shit ton but goat gonna goat

Heck, half the league outplayed Pippen's 17 on 40% in the 96-98' Playoffs

[Roundball_Rock]

He had a higher game score 85% of the time overall and 90% of the time in the NBA finals/ECF/ECSF. Show us--series by series--another sidekick with this level of superiority over the opposition so frequently.

You are just throwing out random names hoping you can confuse the issue enough to deceive some younger posters. :oldlol:

Notice not even your MJ stan allies are bothering to contest the OP? They always duck for cover when the facts show up in this damning way.

Here is a comparison of peak net on/off impact ratings for players from recent decades. Take note of who is--and who is not--mentioned:

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Jordan-v-GOAT-on-off-results-91-93-50g.png

[3ball]

He had a higher game score 85% of the time overall and 90% of the time in the NBA finals/ECF/ECSF. Show us--series by series--another sidekick with this level of superiority over the opposition so frequently.

You are just throwing out random names hoping you can confuse the issue enough to deceive some younger posters. :oldlol:

Notice not even your MJ stan allies are bothering to contest the OP? They always duck for cover when the facts show up in this damning way.

Here is a comparison of peak net on/off impact ratings for players from recent decades. Take note of who is--and who is not--mentioned:

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Jordan-v-GOAT-on-off-results-91-93-50g.png

Do you understand that we don't have plus-minus data before 1997?

This is well-known so you're posting fake data with no source

Secondly, your own data shows Pippen had lower gamescore 4 times during the championship runs, plus several other series that gamescore didn't capture, like the 92' ECSF and 93' 1st Round, among others

Overall, guys like Penny, Howard, Payton, Smits, T Hardaway, Willis and X-man outplayed prime Pippen

That's a shit ton but goat gonna goat.. your data is cool because I didn't know that many guys outplayed Pippen

Heck, half the league outplayed Pippen's 17 on 40% in the 96-98' Playoffs

[Round Mound]

We al know Scottie was just a good scorer NOT GREAT OR ONSTOPPABLE but...in EVERY OTHER CATEGORIES AND SKILLS HE WAS TOP NOTCH.

Scottie Pippen:

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)
Career NBA 4.1 (34th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th)
1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th)
Career NBA 1.8 (34th)

[Roundball_Rock]

We al know Scottie was just a good scorer NOT GREAT OR ONSTOPPABLE but...in EVERY OTHER CATEGORIES AND SKILLS HE WAS TOP NOTCH.

Scottie Pippen:

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)
Career NBA 4.1 (34th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th)
1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th)
Career NBA 1.8 (34th)


:applause:

Look at how much the Chicago offense sucked without Pippen there to pilot the offense. They actually declined more minus Pippen than they did when MJ retired:

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Bulls-efficiencies-Pippen-93-to-98.png

So they went from 5 to 2 after losing MJ but from 8 to 1 without Pippen. When he came back he had them back to 7.

[3ball]

We al know Scottie was just a good scorer NOT GREAT OR ONSTOPPABLE but...in EVERY OTHER CATEGORIES AND SKILLS HE WAS TOP NOTCH.

Scottie Pippen:

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)
Career NBA 4.1 (34th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th)
1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th)
Career NBA 1.8 (34th)


^^^ you only included Pippen's best years, yet his BPM is only borderline top 10 on average

Borderline top 10 BPM in prime isn't top 30 all-time

Not even close, especially when you consider all the other categories where Pippen was horrible - you cherry-picked 1 category where you thought Pippen's stats weren't bad and he still underperformed what you wanted

[3ball]

Pippen Vs. Opposing #2 By Series

Game scores: Pippen 17.7, Vandeweghe 8.0
Game scores: Pippen 20.8, Hawkins 16.9
Game scores: Pippen 20.2, Dumars 7.1
Game scores: Pippen 17.5, Worthy 11.0
Game scores: Pippen 24.5, Seikaly 15.9
Game scores: Pippen 14.9, McDaniel 12.2
Game scores: Pippen 17.7, Daughtery 15.7
Game scores: Pippen 18.1, Porter 12.5
Game scores: Pippen 10.3, Willis 9.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.2, Daughtery 13.6
Game scores: Pippen 15.7, Starks 8.4
Game scores: Pippen 15.6, K. Johnson 10.2
Game scores: L. Johnson 15.8, Pippen 14.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.8, Penny 15.4
Game scores: Pippen 22.7, T. Hardaway 9.3
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Starks 8.1
Game scores: Pippen 16.6, Penny 15.6
Game scores: Kemp 18.9, Pippen 13.4
Game scores: Howard 14.0, Pippen 12.0
Game scores: Pippen 16.4, Laettner 9.4
Games scores: T. Hardaway 11.6, Pippen 10.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9
Game scores: Pippen 16.2, Kittles 10.4
Game scores: Pippen 16.9, Mason 10.7
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Smits 10.9
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Stockton 10.0

Pretty clear: Pippen had higher gamescore than the other #2 in 22 of 26 series, including every single one in the first threepeat. 2 of the 4 series where Pippen was outplayed were brief first round series (3 and 4 game series) that would have sample size corrected over a full series in favor of Pippen, the superior player by far over Larry Johnson and Howard.




^^^ Thread Cliffs:

Pippen had lower gamescore than the opposing 2nd option 4 times during the championship runs, and was outplayed several other times that gamescore didn't catch, like the 92' ECSF or 93' 1st Round..

Overall, Pippen was outplayed by Kemp, Penny, Howard, Smits, Stockton, Willis, X-man, and T Hardaway - that's a ton for only the championship years because he was outplayed a lot from 88-90' and 99-00'...

So MJ won with the weaker 2nd option all the time.

Thanks for the data OP...:applause:... Will use frequently going forward...

[knicksman]

there are lots of players that can replace pippen and the bulls arent missing a beat. You could even replace him with rondo. But replace jordan with any superstar and theyre not winning anything. Thats all that matters. The reason why they won coz of jordan. Kawhi wouldnt win if jordans style isnt effective. Kobe wouldnt have 5 rings if it isnt effective. So move on. It has nothing to do with pippen. Jordan just have the most effective style.

[GimmeThat]

Absolute win share, and win share over league

without admitting to the legitimacy of WS and VORM by basketball reference, I'll just use those as raw statistics since they are the best available at the moment

VORM is currently a per 100 stats -2. So, instead of using -2, we will use -1, since it only requires 1 point to win a game, and your replacement should be your opponent, instead of your bench player.

then by (WS - (VORM + 1))/5 as basketball is a team game of 5, you should be able to get an absolute win share. Or you can leave it as is without /5, since that would be a matter of salary distribution and bench rating. Note: coaching comes into play in the assumption that a player would be taken off the floor when they are no longer effective, so again, this isn't a number that can be used to evaluate how you could build a team by multiplying their number, but more so comparing 1st option/2nd option on different teams.

to calculate win share over the league for the playoff, we would then use the absolute win share, multiply by (minimum games required to win championship/number of games played). This again, would factor in players who could have positive win share numbers in the playoff, yet stuck on none-playoff teams.

Note: all you need to do is win 2/3 in the past or 4/7 currently, in order to advance

how is this any better than the current PER, def rating, off rating? It's suppose to minimize the coaching factor and consider the fact that players would only exert the required energy per game in route to winning, and wouldn't attempt to run up the score for a future loss

it's still pretty raw, but food for thoughts

[Rysio]

So pippen out plays 2nd option 95% of the time while playing goat defense? Goat sidekick.

[Manny98]

No Pip, no Chip :applause:

[SATAN]

Imagine focusing on your abusive father instead of the game as it plays out. Imagine not even being a fan of the game, but the ball hog! It's honestly amazing. The poor deluded souls. Church of MJ + Nike abused and kept them there mentally for the rest of their lives. Highlight machine :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

So pippen out plays 2nd option 95% of the time while playing goat defense? Goat sidekick.

Yeah and keep in mind we don't have a stat for defense or for making his team operate better so his actual impact on the great was greater. :pimp:


The poor deluded souls. Church of MJ + Nike abused and kept them there mentally for the rest of their lives. Highlight machine

:lol


Borderline top 10 BPM in prime isn't top 30 all-time

This is the raw data Round Mound posted:

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)

Let's compare that to another player...

2004-05 NBA 4.6 (14th)
2005-06 NBA 7.7 (4th)
2006-07 NBA 8.2 (2nd)
2008-09 NBA 10.6 (3rd)
2009-10 NBA 9.2 (2nd)
2010-11 NBA 6.6 (4th)
2011-12 NBA 7.9 (3rd)
2012-13 NBA 4.4 (10th)

So Pippen has as many top 10 seasons as Wade and more top 20 seasons. How about in VORP?

Pippen:

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)

Wade:

2004-05 NBA 4.9 (13th)
2005-06 NBA 7.1 (5th)
2006-07 NBA 4.9 (11th)
2008-09 NBA 9.6 (3rd)
2009-10 NBA 7.9 (2nd)
2010-11 NBA 6.1 (4th)
2011-12 NBA 4.0 (4th)
2012-13 NBA 3.8 (14th)

Pippen has 7 top 10 seasons versus Wade's 5. They both have 8 top 20 seasons.

Is Wade not top 30 either then? According to his "logic", no.

[Roundball_Rock]

There is no stat to quantify this...

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HeartfeltHarshIlladopsis-size_restricted.gif

[Round Mound]

There is no stat to quantify this...

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HeartfeltHarshIlladopsis-size_restricted.gif

:bowdown:

[3ball]

.
10 series that MJ won with Pippen getting outplayed (courtesy of Roundball)


1) 1995 First Round Versus Charlotte

Pippen 16/7/6 on 51% with 2 steals, 1 block
L. Johnson 21/6/3 on 48% with 1 steal, 1 block

Game scores: Pippen 14.8, Johnson 15.8

Verdict: Johnson


2) 1996 NBA Finals versus Seattle

Pippen 16/8/5 on 34% with 2 steals, 1 block
Kemp 23/10/2 on 55% with 1 steal, 2 blocks

Game scores: Pippen 13.4, Kemp 18.9

Verdict: Kemp


3) 1997 First Round versus Washington

Pippen 17/9/3 on 39% with 1 steal, 1 block
Howard 19/6/2 on on 46% with 1 block

Game scores: Pippen 12.0, Howard 14.0

Verdict: Howard


4) 1997 Conference Finals versus Miami

Pippen 17/5/3 on 42% with 2 steals
Hardaway 17/5/6 on 35%

Games scores: Pippen 10.8, Hardaway 11.6

Verdict: Hardaway


5) 1997 NBA finals against Utah

Pippen 20/8/4 on 42% with 2 steals, 2 blocks
Stockton 15/4/9 on 50% with 2 steals, 1 block

Game scores: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9

Verdict: Draw


6) 1996 ECF versus Orlando

Pippen 19/7/7 on 45% with 2 steals
Penny 26/4/4 on 47% with 1 steal


7) 1992 Second Round against the Knicks

Pippen 16/8/7 on 40% with 2 steals, 1 block
McDaniel 19/6/2 on 50% with 1 steal


8) 1993 First Round against Atlanta

Pippen 15/4/5 on 42% with 2 steals
Willis 17/8/1 on 47% with 1 steal


9) 1988 1st Round


10) 1989 1st Round


11) 1989 2nd Round

[3ball]

^^^ keep in mind that I'm using mostly Roundball's choices for series that Pippen was outplayed in - I think he was outplayed in far more so the number is actually much higher than 11

[97 bulls]

There is no stat to quantify this...

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HeartfeltHarshIlladopsis-size_restricted.gif

It's this type of play that proves that Pippens impact on a game is tantamount to a 30ppg scorer. Look at the 1998 Finals Game 4 when the Bulls beat the Jazz 96-54. They won with stifling defense spearhead by Pip. It's the widest margin of victory in a Finals game ever.

[Roundball_Rock]

It's this type of play that proves that Pippens impact on a game is tantamount to a 30ppg scorer. Look at the 1998 Finals Game 4 when the Bulls beat the Jazz 96-54. They won with stifling defense spearhead by Pip. It's the widest margin of victory in a Finals game ever.


:applause: Yup but you will see MJ stans say Pippen sucked in that series because of scoring. Some of them on ISH will point to that specific game because his line was 10/4/4 or something when those of us who watched it know he dominated the game.


10 series that MJ won with Pippen getting outplayed (courtesy of Roundball)

This is false.

Pippen Vs. Opposing #2 By Series

Game scores: Pippen 17.7, Vandeweghe 8.0
Game scores: Pippen 20.8, Hawkins 16.9
Game scores: Pippen 20.2, Dumars 7.1
Game scores: Pippen 17.5, Worthy 11.0
Game scores: Pippen 24.5, Seikaly 15.9
Game scores: Pippen 14.9, McDaniel 12.2
Game scores: Pippen 17.7, Daughtery 15.7
Game scores: Pippen 18.1, Porter 12.5
Game scores: Pippen 10.3, Willis 9.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.2, Daughtery 13.6
Game scores: Pippen 15.7, Starks 8.4
Game scores: Pippen 15.6, K. Johnson 10.2
Game scores: L. Johnson 15.8, Pippen 14.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.8, Penny 15.4
Game scores: Pippen 22.7, T. Hardaway 9.3
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Starks 8.1
Game scores: Pippen 16.6, Penny 15.6
Game scores: Kemp 18.9, Pippen 13.4
Game scores: Howard 14.0, Pippen 12.0
Game scores: Pippen 16.4, Laettner 9.4
Games scores: T. Hardaway 11.6*, Pippen* 10.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9
Game scores: Pippen 16.2, Kittles 10.4
Game scores: Pippen 16.9, Mason 10.7
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Smits 10.9
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Stockton 10.0

So Pippen was up 22-4 overall, 23-3 if you throw out Game 5 of the 97' ECF. If you look only at the NBA finals/ECF/ECSF Pippen leads 18-2 and that is 19-1 if you take out the injured 7 minute game in the 97' ECF.

How about Wade as a comparison?

Wade versus Sidekicks (2011-2014 Finals/ECFs)

Deng 11.4, Wade 11.1
Wade 22.7, Terry 13.4
Rondo 18.9, Wade 15.4
Westbrook 18.9, Wade 16.4
Wade 11.7, West 11.2
Wade 14.9, Parker 11.2 (15.9 if you consider Duncan the #2)
Wade 15.7, West 11.7
Duncan 12.9, Wade 7.9

So Wade had a 50-50 split in these 8 series. You could do this with anyone. Gasol. Klay. Pierce (2008-2010 run). Parker. You are going to be hard pressed to find the level of consistent superiority Pippen displayed. Maybe Kobe is the one exception.

*Pippen 12.7, Hardaway 9.6 through the first four games. Pippen played only 7 minutes in Game 5 and got only a 3.2 game score as a result.

[Roundball_Rock]

How about Gasol?

Gasol versus Sidekicks in Finals/WCF (2008-2010)

Parker 13.8, Gasol 12.7
Pierce 15.6, Gasol 12.4
Gasol 18.9, Billups 14.7
Gasol 17.6, Lewis 12.7
Amare 17.4, Gasol 17.0
Gasol 18.7, Garnett 12.3/Rondo 12.1

How about throwing in the 2011 WCSF? Terry 17.7, Gasol 11.4.

So in these 7 series Gasol was outplayed 57% of the time by the opposing #2.

This is why MJ stans have to spend so much time diminishing Pippen. His record is too strong and they are too insecure to admit Jordan had great help.

[RRR3]

How about Gasol?

Gasol versus Sidekicks in Finals/WCF (2008-2010)

Parker 13.8, Gasol 12.7
Pierce 15.6, Gasol 12.4
Gasol 18.9, Billups 14.7
Gasol 17.6, Lewis 12.7
Amare 17.4, Gasol 17.0
Gasol 18.7, Garnett 12.3/Rondo 12.1

How about throwing in the 2011 WCSF? Terry 17.7, Gasol 11.4.

So in these 7 series Gasol was outplayed 57% of the time by the opposing #2.

This is why MJ stans have to spend so much time diminishing Pippen. His record is too strong and they are too insecure to admit Jordan had great help.
Damn Kobe won with less help than MJ. 3ball seething.

[SouBeachTalents]

How about Gasol?

Gasol versus Sidekicks in Finals/WCF (2008-2010)

Parker 13.8, Gasol 12.7
Pierce 15.6, Gasol 12.4
Gasol 18.9, Billups 14.7
Gasol 17.6, Lewis 12.7
Amare 17.4, Gasol 17.0
Gasol 18.7, Garnett 12.3/Rondo 12.1

How about throwing in the 2011 WCSF? Terry 17.7, Gasol 11.4.

So in these 7 series Gasol was outplayed 57% of the time by the opposing #2.

This is why MJ stans have to spend so much time diminishing Pippen. His record is too strong and they are too insecure to admit Jordan had great help.
Lol, you are definitely selling Gasol short here. He had a higher gamescore than the opposing teams FIRST option in both '09 series & the 2010 Finals. And in 2011 Terry had a higher gamescore than Kobe too

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Gamescore is a lot Ike PER in that it adds your raw totals together.

Not exactly the best measure of impact. If you care about defense anyway.

[Roundball_Rock]

Damn Kobe won with less help than MJ. 3ball seething.

:oldlol:

How about Stockton? Let's use years they made the WCF or Finals and look at the finals, WCF, and WCSF.

Stockton versus Sidekicks (Select Series)

Stockton 17.5, E. Johnson 10.1
Porter 25.0, Stockton 14.0
Stockton 15.0, Abdul-Rauf 9.2
Stockton 13.6, Thorpe 7.2
Stockton 11.9, Elliott 7.1
Kemp 16.2, Stockton 8.9
Stockton 14.2, Jones 6.4
Stockton 19.9, Drexler 12.7
Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9
Robinson 15.1, Stockton 11.7
Jones 13.3, Stockton 12.1
Pippen 13.0, Stockton 10.0

So Stockton, the second best sidekick of that era, went 6-5 in these series (including 0-2 versus Pippen). in the series we looked at Gasol was 3-4, Wade 4-4. Pippen 18-2 outside the first round and 19-1 excluding Game 5 of the 97' ECF.


Lol, you are definitely selling Gasol short here. He had a higher gamescore than the opposing teams FIRST option in both '09 series & the 2010 Finals. And in 2011 Terry had a higher gamescore than Kobe too

I have to do the analysis the same way, which is #2 versus #2. Posters are free to add context but the tables lose meaning if I change the methodology. The reason I did this is I keep hearing all over the internet that MJ had a scrub sidekick and how awesome every other 90's star except Pippen was.

[Leviathon1121]

Why do you keep saying “MJ Stans”? You are arguing with one person and are almost always arguing with this one person. Seriously you are as bad as he is with your constant claims that this board is overrun with MJ Stans who hate Pippen. :facepalm

[Roundball_Rock]

Why do you keep saying “MJ Stans”?

Simple: that is the group that always hates on Pippen. It sticks out like a sore thumb that whenever there is a Pippen thread (unless it is filled with overwhelming facts, like this one--they avoid those like a vampire avoids sunlight) that 90% of the anti-Pippen posters happen to be fans of Jordan (similar trend on social media, other places). It has been this way forever. They don't hide that they are MJ stans.

Are we supposed to ignore the obvious? It isn't Curry, LeBron, Kobe or Shaq stans out there in all these threads. Why does calling out reality bother you--not the anti-Pippen crusade all over the internet on the part of this massive fan base? It goes to their agenda and (pathetic) motive. It is disingenuous to pretend innocent MJ stans are just plodding along and unfairly being called out.

3ball is a deflection. The others (it is disingenuous to pretend 3ball is somehow the only one) share 90% of his views. A lot of it is simply 3ball saying the quiet part out loud. They will hype guys like Kemp, Kevin Johnson or Kyrie. He will say the logical conclusion they are driving at: Pippen sucks and is inferior to all these stars. I have yet to see MJ stans compare Pippen favorably to any star. :oldlol: If you have, please direct me to that thread.

It is amusing you have zero to contribute to the substance of the thread but are whining about poor MJ stans. You don't need to make the same complaint via multiple accounts.

[RRR3]

Why do you keep saying “MJ Stans”? You are arguing with one person and are almost always arguing with this one person. Seriously you are as bad as he is with your constant claims that this board is overrun with MJ Stans who hate Pippen. :facepalm
It's not just 3ball. He's just the worst of them.


You also have SamuraiSwish/Money Mitch 23 AKA "Coach", Sportjames23, guy, Andgar, Da Realist, LostCause, RogueBorg, TheMan, Phoenix, egokiller/straight_ballin, Soundwave, Poetry, ClipperRevival, BigShotBob etc.


I wouldn't say Guy, LostCause or Phoenix are any worse stans of MJ than I am of LeBron, but they're still biased, as am I.

[Roundball_Rock]

It's not just 3ball. He's just the worst of them.


You also have SamuraiSwish/Money Mitch 23 AKA "Coach", Sportjames23, guy, Andgar, Da Realist, LostCause, RogueBorg, TheMan, Phoenix, egokiller/straight_ballin, Soundwave, Poetry, ClipperRevival, BigShotBob etc.

Hoops NYC and Kuniva are some others but you got pretty much the entire roster of people who are in basically every Pippen thread saying he sucks. RRR you were in one of these recently. Half the guys you listed were in it and 97_bulls and I went at it with them for 20+ pages. It isn't just "3ball." He is just the tip of the spear and that account allows the others to look "reasonable" while working towards the same agenda.

Is them being MJ stans not relevant when the vitriol towards Pippen comes almost exclusively from one fan base? It is the same on social media. Go to any sports Facebook group. The anti-Pippen threads are all from MJ stans. We aren't supposed to notice?

Phoenix is a MJ stan? I didn't know that because he is so reasonable. He is a good poster.

[Kblaze8855]

There is no stat to quantify this...

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HeartfeltHarshIlladopsis-size_restricted.gif



Sometimes you gotta personally destroy an entire offensive set


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SociableForthrightBittern-size_restricted.gif




This doesn’t help win games though


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CompassionateWetHuman-size_restricted.gif

[97 bulls]

Sometimes you gotta personally destroy an entire offensive set


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SociableForthrightBittern-size_restricted.gif




This doesn’t help win games though


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CompassionateWetHuman-size_restricted.gif

Pippen covered sooo much ground on defense. Just think how effective hed be today because he could freely roam. Him and Jordan.

[SouBeachTalents]

Sometimes you gotta personally destroy an entire offensive set


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SociableForthrightBittern-size_restricted.gif




This doesn’t help win games though


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CompassionateWetHuman-size_restricted.gif
He wasn't scoring in those clips, so none of these were that beneficial for the team

[Roundball_Rock]

Sometimes you gotta personally destroy an entire offensive set


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SociableForthrightBittern-size_restricted.gif




This doesn’t help win games though


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CompassionateWetHuman-size_restricted.gif

:bowdown:

Why didn't he ever score 25 PPG like a true baller, though?

[Soundwave]

Basketball isn't a 2-on-2 sport.

I've listed if before, but the Suns, Blazers and several other teams the Bulls beat had better scoring from options 2-5 on their roster.

The Bulls were top heavy, their depth player 2-6 is overrated. Case in point, 93 Suns:


Dan Majerle - 17 ppg
Kevin Johnson - 16.1 ppg, 7.8 apg
Richard Dumas - 15.8 ppg
Cedric Cebballos - 12 ppg
Tom Chambers - 12 ppg
Danny Ainge - 11 ppg
= 84 ppg approximately from the 5 players after Barkley


Bulls

Pippen - 18.6 ppg, 6.3 apg
Grant - 13.2 ppg
Armstrong - 12.3 ppg
Cartwright - 5.3 ppg
Williams - 5.9 ppg
Paxson - 4.2 ppg
= 59.5 ppg from the 5 players after Jordan

The Suns are a deeper, more talented overall team. Jordan being way better than Barkley is why the Bulls win that Finals.

[Roundball_Rock]

Case in point...

[Round Mound]

Basketball isn't a 2-on-2 sport.

I've listed if before, but the Suns, Blazers and several other teams the Bulls beat had better scoring from options 2-5 on their roster.

The Bulls were top heavy, their depth player 2-6 is overrated. Case in point, 93 Suns:


Dan Majerle - 17 ppg
Kevin Johnson - 16.1 ppg, 7.8 apg
Richard Dumas - 15.8 ppg
Cedric Cebballos - 12 ppg
Tom Chambers - 12 ppg
Danny Ainge - 11 ppg


Bulls

Pippen - 18.6 ppg, 6.3 apg
Grant - 13.2 ppg
Armstrong - 12.3 ppg
Cartwright - 5.3 ppg
Williams - 5.9 ppg
Paxson - 4.2 ppg

The Suns are a deeper, more talented overall team. Jordan being way better than Barkley is why the Bulls win that Finals.


:no:

The Suns where deeper OFFENSIVELY but NOT DEFENSIVELY.

The Bulls had 3 ALL Defensive Team Players in Jordan, Pippen and Grant: the last two whom guarded Barkley.

Pippen was a better 2nd option to any of Barkley's 2nd options.

[Soundwave]

:no:

The Suns where deeper OFFENSIVELY but NOT DEFENSIVELY.

The Bulls had 3 ALL Defensive Team Players in Jordan, Pippen and Grant: the last two whom guarded Barkley.

Pippen was a better 2nd option to any of Barkley's 2nd options.

Again though basketball is not a 2-on-2 sport, you have to play other guys.

The Bulls were not a "loaded" roster in the way teams like the 80s Lakers, Celtics were. Those teams went 4-5 guys deep offensively. The Bulls were basically a 2-3 man offence and they were able to get by with that because they had the greatest scorer in the history of the NBA.

The Bulls are really the only dominant NBA team ever that had often times only one player above 20 ppg. Even the Shaq-Kobe Lakers had (well) Shaq + Kobe, two top 10 players.

Almost every other great team goes 3-4 deep, whether that's the 70s Lakers, the 80s Lakers, the 80s Celtics, the 2010s Warriors.

I believe the only NBA Finals where the Bulls options 2-5 actually outscored the other team's 2-5 options was 1998 and that's really only because Toni Kukoc stepped up. Every other Finals when you subtract the no.1 option from both teams, the Bulls got outscored by their opponent.

[Round Mound]

Again though basketball is not a 2-on-2 sport, you have to play other guys.

The Bulls were not a "loaded" roster in the way teams like the 80s Lakers, Celtics were. Those teams went 4-5 guys deep offensively. The Bulls were basically a 2-3 man offence and they were able to get by with that because they had the greatest scorer in the history of the NBA.

Ths Bulls where not loaded for the 80's but they where loaded for the 90's. Especially Defensively.

2nd and 3rd options for the Bulls vs the Suns in the 93 Finals:

Scottie Pippen: 21.2 PPG on 43.9% FG, 9.2 RPG, 7,7 APG, 2.0 SPG & 1.0 BPG
Horace Grant: 11.2 PPG on 52.8% FG, 10.3 RPG, 2.3 APG, 1.5 SPG & 1.5 BPG

The Suns where NOT a GREAT DEFENSIVE TEAM. PIPPEN AND GRANT WHERE BIG TIME ALL NBA TEAM DEFENDERS.

[Soundwave]

Ths Bulls where not loaded for the 80's but they where loaded for the 90's. Especially Defensively.

2nd and 3rd options for the Bulls vs the Suns in the 93 Finals:

Scottie Pippen: 21.2 PPG on 43.9% FG, 9.2 RPG[/U,] 7,7 APG, [U]2.0 SPG & 1.0 BPG
Horace Grant: 11.2 PPG in 52.8% FG, 10.3 RPG, 2.3 APG, 1.5 SPG & 1.5 BPG

The Suns where NOT a GREAT DEFENSIVE TEAM. PIPPEN AND GRANT WHERE BIG TIME ALL NBA TEAM DEFENDERS.

Yet the Bulls "supporting offence" of options 2/3/4/5 got outscored in the 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, and 1997 Finals by their respective 2/3/4/5 options on the other side.

You can play all the defence you want, when you get outscored by the other side you lose. The reason they won all those titles is because Jordan outplayed the other team's no.1 option by a large margin to tip the scales the other way.

[Roundball_Rock]

:no:

The Suns where deeper OFFENSIVELY but NOT DEFENSIVELY.

The Bulls had 3 ALL Defensive Team Players in Jordan, Pippen and Grant: the last two whom guarded Barkley.

Pippen was a better 2nd option to any of Barkley's 2nd options.

Suns with Barkley: 56 wins
Bulls without Jordan: 55 wins

Yet these guys go around with a straight face saying it was all MJ and everyone else is who "really" had the stacked teams? What Soundwave is saying is a slick version of what 3ball will say more bluntly.


The Bulls were not a "loaded" roster in the way teams like the 80s Lakers, Celtics were.

This trick again. They weren't playing 80's teams. They, by virtue of being in the 90's, played 90's teams. Teams with Starks, Oakley or Smits, Davis or Porter, Kersey as their 2nd and 3rd best players...

[Soundwave]

Suns with Barkley: 56 wins
Bulls without Jordan: 55 wins

Yet these guys go around with a straight face saying it was all MJ and everyone else is who "really" had the stacked teams?



This trick again. They weren't playing 80's teams. They, by virtue of being in the 90's, played 90's teams. Teams with Starks, Oakley or Smits, Davis or Porter, Kersey as their 2nd and 3rd best players...

Even relative to their 90s competition, the Bulls no.2-5/6 scoring options get outscored in every NBA Finals except 1998.

Last time I checked, when you get outscored you lose. The reason they won is because Jordan tipped the scales back in their favor and then some.

[Round Mound]

2nd and 3rd options for the Bulls vs the Suns in the 93 Finals:

Scottie Pippen: 21.2 PPG on 43.9% FG, 9.2 RPG, 7,7 APG, 2.0 SPG & 1.0 BPG
Horace Grant: 11.2 PPG on 52.8% FG, 10.3 RPG, 2.3 APG, 1.5 SPG & 1.5 BPG


2 All NBA DEFENSIVE TEAMERS vs Charles Barkley (whom was injured after game 2)

[Soundwave]

2nd and 3rd options for the Bulls vs the Suns in the 93 Finals:

Scottie Pippen: 21.2 PPG on 43.9% FG, 9.2 RPG, 7,7 APG, 2.0 SPG & 1.0 BPG
Horace Grant: 11.2 PPG on 52.8% FG, 10.3 RPG, 2.3 APG, 1.5 SPG & 1.5 BPG


2 All NBA DEFENSIVE TEAMERS vs Charles Barkley (whom was injured after game 2)

Go ahead and list the Suns options no.2/3/4/5 in that Finals series and add up their points.

Now tell me if that number isn't higher than what Pippen + Grant + option 3 + option 4 + option 5 on the Bulls provided.

[ImKobe]

2nd and 3rd options for the Bulls vs the Suns in the 93 Finals:

Scottie Pippen: 21.2 PPG on 43.9% FG, 9.2 RPG, 7,7 APG, 2.0 SPG & 1.0 BPG
Horace Grant: 11.2 PPG on 52.8% FG, 10.3 RPG, 2.3 APG, 1.5 SPG & 1.5 BPG


2 All NBA DEFENSIVE TEAMERS vs Charles Barkley (whom was injured after game 2)

Suns had more offensive firepower. MJ averaged 41 yet both teams ended up scoring the same amount of points per game for the series.

[Soundwave]

Suns had more offensive firepower. MJ averaged 41 yet both teams ended up scoring the same amount of points per game for the series.

The only reason the Bulls win that series is because Jordan was way better than Barkley, who is a great player in his own right.

[3ball]

1993

Suns had #9 defense
Bulls had #7 defense

But the Suns had much more offense - so the Suns were better, except for mj

Pippen's true shooting was 45% in the 93' Finals... 0.083 ws/48 for the entire playoff run... 16.9 PER... worse stats and production than 14' Wade

[Round Mound]

Yes the Suns had more offensive power but the Bulls had WAY MORE DEFENSIVE POWER. Compare the 2 Players that Guarded Barkley to the players guarding Jordan. Them 2 Players Guarding Barkley where ALL DEFENSIVE TEAMERS. Lets also remember that Barkley got injured in game 2 going for his own offensive reboinding and landing on the floor hurting his elbow for the rest of the series. He probably would have shot better but the BULLS would still win because HAVING A BETTER DEFENSIVE TEAM

MJ was better than Barkley even if the Suns would have won btw.

[Round Mound]

1993

Suns had #9 defense
Bulls had #7 defense

But the Suns had much more offense - so the Suns were better, except for mj

Crap that's for the season NOT THE LEVEL OF PLAY-OFF BASKETBALL which is MORE DEFENSIVE AND THE BULLS WHERE WAY BETTER DEFENSIVEL THAN THE SUNS. especialy MJ havin PIPPEN AND GRANT THESE 2 WHERE BETTER DEFENDERS THAN WHAT THE SUNS HAD

[3ball]

Yes the Suns had more offensive power but the Bulls had WAY MORE DEFENSIVE POWER. Compare the 2 Players that Guarded Barkley to the players guarding Jordan. Them 2 Players Guarding Barkley where ALL DEFENSIVE TEAMERS. Lets also remember that Barkley got injured in game 2 going for his own offensive reboinding and landing on the floor hurting his elbow for the rest of the series. He probably would have shot better but the BULLS would still win because HAVING A BETTER DEFENSIVE TEAM

MJ was better than Barkley even if the Suns would have won btw.

Suns had the #9 defense

Bulls had #7

So the Suns were almost as good defensively - QUIT LYING - Suns were almost as good defensively a d way better offensively

[Soundwave]

Every primary supporting cast (options 2-5 or 2-6 if you want) that Jordan had was outscored in 5/6 NBA Finals and in the 6th Finals he "only" had to basically win the game by taking over game 6 and breaking the Jazz in half with a knockout punch of a series of shots + defensive plays that sealed the game.


No one cares how well you played offensively/defensively, whatever, there's no special cookie you get, at the end of the game they simply add up which team scored the most points, that team wins. That's how basketball works.

[Round Mound]

Suns had the #9 defense

Bulls had #7

So the Suns were almost as good defensively - QUIT LYING - Suns were almost as good defensively a d way better offensively

So you are saying that the Suns had better defense than the Bulls with GRANT, PIPPEN AND JORDAN compared to KJ, Thunderdan and Dumas? GET F-REAL! The Suns had a 6´10 Center while the Bulls had a 7'1 center with an actual post game.

The Bulls also had PIPPEN = THE BEST PERIMIETER DEFENDER EVER and an ALL NBA DEFENSIVE TEAM at Powerforward in GRANT.

Play-offs are different from the Regular Season. The better defense you have the more chances to win

PIPPEN was a BETTER 2ND OPTION than KJ or Thunder Dan btw.

[Soundwave]

So you are saying that the Suns had better defense than the Bulls with GRANT, PIPPEN AND JORDAN compared to KJ, Thunderdan and Dumas? GET F-REAL! The Suns had a 6´10 Center while the Bulls had a 7'1 center with an actual post game.

The Bulls also had PIPPEN = THE BEST PERIMIETER DEFENDER EVER and an ALL NBA DEFENSIVE TEAM at Powerforward in GRANT.

Play-offs are different from the Regular Season. The better defense you have the more chances to win

PIPPEN was a BETTER 2ND OPTION than KJ or Thunder Dan btw.

Were the 1993 NBA Finals played 2-on-2 or 3-on-3?

I must have missed that part.

List Pippen + Grant + Armstrong + Cartwright + Paxson (the Bulls 5 best scorers after Jordan) versus the Suns top 5 options after Barkley in the '93 Finals.

What happens in basketball when the other team outscores you? Do you win?

Yes the Bulls top 2 was often better than the other team's top 2 (in large part because of freaking Jordan) ... but the dirty little secret that doesn't get told is the Bulls options 2-6 (which includes Pippen) as a whole were routinely outscored by their counter-parts on the other team.

An actual basketball game has more than 2 or 3 people playing per side.

[Round Mound]

Were the 1993 NBA Finals played 2-on-2 or 3-on-3?

I must have missed that part.

List Pippen + Grant + Armstrong + Cartwright + Paxson (the Bulls 5 best scorers after Jordan) versus the Suns top 5 options after Barkley.

What happens in basketball when the other team outscores you? Do you win?

What happens when you have better DEFENSE? it lowers the chances yout have to score.

And MJs 2nd and 3rd options played BETTER DEFENSE than the Suns 2nd and 3rd options.

Scottie Pippen: 21.2 PPG on 43.9% FG, 9.2 RPG, 7,7 APG, 2.0 SPG & 1.0 BPG
Horace Grant: 11.2 PPG on 52.8% FG, 10.3 RPG, 2.3 APG, 1.5 SPG & 1.5 BPG

[Soundwave]

What happens when you have better DEFENSE? it lowers the chances yout have to score.

And MJs 2nd and 3rd options played BETTER DEFENSE than the Suns 2nd and 3rd options.

Scottie Pippen: 21.2 PPG on 43.9% FG, 9.2 RPG, 7,7 APG, 2.0 SPG & 1.0 BPG
Horace Grant: 11.2 PPG on 52.8% FG, 10.3 RPG, 2.3 APG, 1.5 SPG & 1.5 BPG

Yes it does help, but at the end of the day you still need to outscore the opponent to win a basketball game.

No team ever won a game based on getting brownie points for defensive hustle but not being able to to outscore their opponent.

The Suns supporting cast outscored the Bulls supporting cast in the 1993 season and the 1993 NBA Finals.

[Round Mound]

Yes it does help, but at the end of the day you still need to outscore the opponent to win a basketball game.

No team ever won a game based on getting brownie points for defensive hustle.

The Suns supporting cast outscored the Bulls supporting cast in the 1993 season and the 1993 NBA Finals. The only reason the Bulls win that series is because of Michael Jordan being the difference.

I've already said the Suns wher better offensively BUT NOT DEFENSIVELY.

Bulls won because they had the best player in the game and they ALSO HAD, THEE BEST SMALLFORWARD IN THE GAME IN PIPPEN - WHO WAS A BETTER 2ND OPTION THAN THE SUNS 2ND OPTION

Also Bulls had the Better 3RD OPTION, ESPECIALLY DEFENSIVE WISE TOO IN GRANT.

[Soundwave]

I've already said the Suns wher better offensively BUT NOT DEFENSIVELY.

Bulls won because they had the best player in the game and they ALSO HAD, THEE BEST SMALLFORWARD IN THE GAME IN PIPPEN - WHO WAS A BETTER 2ND OPTION THAN THE SUNS 2ND OPTION

Also Bulls had the Better 3RD OPTION, ESPECIALLY DEFENSIVE WISE TOO IN GRANT.

Kevin Johnson is a better player than Horace Grant. He's really underrated, if Kevin Johnson played on a glamour team that won a lot like the Bulls or Lakers he would be celebrated as star tier player.

That's the other thing is supporting players on teams that win titles get overrated by virtue of simply having the good fortune of having the best player on their side from either team.

Like Derek Fisher and Robert Horry will get remembered for a long time probably, but that doesn't really mean they were better players than a Peja Stojakavic or Mike Bibby. It's just they were on the side that won -- because they had Shaq primarily.

[Roundball_Rock]

It is ridiculous to invoke scoring totals when Jordan was taking 33 shots a game. Of course scoring totals will be lower for his team.

Basketball is about more than scoring--defense matters too (as the Suns learned). Again, the Suns with Barkley won 56 the next year; the Bulls without Jordan won 55. It defies logic to say the former was the superior team.

Kevin Johnson choked hard in his only Finals. If he did not, Phoenix likely would have won.

[Round Mound]

Kevin Johnson is a better player than Horace Grant. He's really underrated, if Kevin Johnson played on a glamour team that won a lot like the Bulls or Lakers he would be celebrated as star tier player.

Better Offensively but NOT DEFENSIVELY.

Grant averaged 10.3 RPG, 1.5 SPG AND 1.5 BPG.

OH, and what about PIPPEN? He OUTPLAYED ANY OTHER SUN not named Barkley:

Bulls 2nd Option: 21.2 PPG on 43.9% FG, 9.2 RPG, 7,7 APG, 2.0 SPG & 1.0 BPG

[Soundwave]

It is ridiculous to invoke scoring totals when Jordan was taking 33 shots a game. Of course scoring totals will be lower for his team.

Basketball is about more than scoring. Again, the Suns with Barkley won 56 the next year; the Bulls without Jordan won 55. It defies logic to say the former was the superior team.

And regular season totals mean what? Dick all. Everyone knows the NBA regular season is a joke, even fans of other sports leagues will say that.

The Golden State Warriors won 57 games with Durant and Cousins ... doesn't mean that team wasn't better than the 73 win team. The Raptors are not a better team without Kawhi Leonard, I don't give a f*ck what their regular season record says.

That sh*t is overrated if anything. The 93-94 Bulls won one less game than the 2001 Lakers in the regular season ... the 2001 Lakers would demolish them head to head, probably sweep them.

[Round Mound]

It is ridiculous to invoke scoring totals when Jordan was taking 33 shots a game. Of course scoring totals will be lower for his team.

Basketball is about more than scoring. Again, the Suns with Barkley won 56 the next year; the Bulls without Jordan won 55. It defies logic to say the former was the superior team.

The Suns won 62 GAMES IN 93 that year but they did it with KJ ONLY PLAYING 49 GAMES.

And strangely enough they had a BETTER WINNNING % WITHOUT KJ

What would happen if PIPPEN was NOT ON THE BULLS in the Finals? ESPECIALLY DEFENSIVELY...

[Roundball_Rock]

I suspect KJ being out helped as it allowed them to focus on Barkley versus having to give KJ enough usage to allow him to score 20 PPG himself.


What would happen if PIPPEN was NOT ON THE BULLS in the Finals? ESPECIALLY DEFENSIVELY...

They would lose. They keep hyping Kevin Johnson but ignore him choking while Pippen put up 21/9/8 along with elite defense was a major factor in the outcome. It wasn't all Mike.

[Soundwave]

The bottom line is the Bulls were never very deep.

Other teams especially options 2-5 routinely were deeper than the Bulls.

The best Bulls team that they probably could have had was one that never existed, that would've been the 93-94 Bulls if Jordan did not retire.

That team then would've had Jordan + Pippen + Grant + Kukoc + Armstrong, that would be offensive depth not quite as good as say the 93 Suns, but at least getting comparable.

They never were a "loaded" team in that respect. They lost Grant and Armstrong's scoring after 95 and Rodman while yes a very high end defender didn't bring much scoring.

NBA basketball is not played 2-on-2 or 3-on-3. If you are getting outscored at positions 2/3/4/5/6 etc. on your roster, I don't care how great your D is, it means ultimately your no.1 option has to make up for that margin and then some.

[Round Mound]

I suspect KJ being out helped as it allowed them to focus on Barkley versus having to give KJ enough usage to allow him to score 20 PPG himself.



They would lose. They keep hyping Kevin Johnson but ignore him choking while Pippen put up 21/9/8 along with elite defense was a major factor in the outcome. It wasn't all Mike.

:applause:

PIPPEN > kj everyone but MJ dickriders know this

[3ball]

:applause:

PIPPEN > kj everyone but MJ dickriders know this

KJ destroys Pippen because there's nothing Pippen did that KJ didn't do (KJ won 55 games and made 2nd Round numerous times)

but there tons of things KJ did that Pippen didn't (average double-double, average 20/10, make conference finals, upset Magic's 1 seeded Lakers aka BE CLUTCH)..

Accolades and rings mean nothing for 2nd options... KJ has much better stats and carried teams WAY better than Pippen.. and KJ is the mayor, not a low character scumbag like Pip

[RRR3]

KJ destroys Pippen because there's nothing Pippen did that KJ didn't do (KJ won 55 games and made 2nd Round numerous times) but there tons of things KJ did that Pippen didn't (average double-double, average 20/10, make conference finals, upset Magic's 1 seeded Lakers aka BE CLUTCH).. accolades and rings mean nothing for 2nd options
Find a single GOAT list with KJ ranked higher.

[3ball]

Find a single GOAT list with KJ ranked higher.
Do the poll respondents know what correlation and standard deviation mean and can they dunk.. if not, how can their rankings compare to mine

What percentage of people voting are experienced ballplayers at least D1 or better, and were also professional analysts (6 figure job to analyze shit)

If that isn't the majority of the poll respondents then I can assure you that my rankings are more accurate... Sorry, but a D1 ball-playing professional analyst has better basketball rankings than a sea of couch potatoes

Accept the facts - KJ was a 20/10 player that upset Magic's 1 seeded Lakers to make WCF - that's better stats and basketball accomplishment than Pippen

[RRR3]

Do the poll respondents know what correlation and standard deviation mean and can they dunk.. if not, how can their rankings compare to mine

What percentage of people voting are experienced ballplayers at least D1 or better, and were also professional analysts (6 figure job to analyze shit)

If that isn't the majority of the poll respondents then I can assure you that my rankings are more accurate... Sorry, but a D1 ball-playing professional analyst has better basketball rankings than a sea of couch potatoes
You didn't play D1 though, you're a proven liar.

[3ball]

You didn't play D1 though, you're a proven liar.

I did play D1 and posted my photos on this site around the 10k post mark, give or take 5k

Accept the facts - KJ was a 20/10 player that upset Magic's 1 seeded Lakers to make WCF - that's better stats and basketball accomplishment than Pippen (Pippen's carried rings aside... KJ would've had much better stats alongside MJ)

[RRR3]

I did play D1 and posted my photos on this site around the 10k post mark, give or take 5k

Accept the facts - KJ was a 20/10 player that upset Magic's 1 seeded Lakers to make WCF - that's better stats and basketball accomplishment than Pippen (Pippen's carried rings aside... KJ would've had much better stats alongside MJ)
No you didn't. What photos? Easy to say that, you've been caught lying numerous times about stats on here.

[Round Mound]

KJ destroys Pippen because there's nothing Pippen did that KJ didn't do (KJ won 55 games and made 2nd Round numerous times)

but there tons of things KJ did that Pippen didn't (average double-double, average 20/10, make conference finals, upset Magic's 1 seeded Lakers aka BE CLUTCH)..

Accolades and rings mean nothing for 2nd options... KJ has much better stats and carried teams WAY better than Pippen.. and KJ is the mayor, not a low character scumbag like Pip


*KJ was a stat padder who only won games when he had Majerle and Hornacek 1st to pass to and then Barkley.

*In the 93 season KJ played ONLY 49 GAMES and THE SUNS HAD 62 WINS AND HAD A HIGHER WINNING % WITHOUT HIM

* KJ was jealous of Barkley (everyone was bowing down to Barkley in the MVP day in 93 except the jealous KJ and bench player 33 year old Tom Chambers)

KJ WAS NOT IN THE LEVEL OF PIPPEN IN THE DEFENSIVE SIDE OF THE BALL.

When has KJ had this much impact?:

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th) *Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)

As you can see ONLY MJ LOWERED PIPPEN STATISTICALLY

[3ball]

.
10 series that MJ won with Pippen getting outplayed (courtesy of Roundball)


1) 1995 First Round Versus Charlotte

Pippen 16/7/6 on 51% with 2 steals, 1 block
L. Johnson 21/6/3 on 48% with 1 steal, 1 block

Game scores: Pippen 14.8, Johnson 15.8

Verdict: Johnson


2) 1996 NBA Finals versus Seattle

Pippen 16/8/5 on 34% with 2 steals, 1 block
Kemp 23/10/2 on 55% with 1 steal, 2 blocks

Game scores: Pippen 13.4, Kemp 18.9

Verdict: Kemp


3) 1997 First Round versus Washington

Pippen 17/9/3 on 39% with 1 steal, 1 block
Howard 19/6/2 on on 46% with 1 block

Game scores: Pippen 12.0, Howard 14.0

Verdict: Howard


4) 1997 Conference Finals versus Miami

Pippen 17/5/3 on 42% with 2 steals
Hardaway 17/5/6 on 35%

Games scores: Pippen 10.8, Hardaway 11.6

Verdict: Hardaway


5) 1997 NBA finals against Utah

Pippen 20/8/4 on 42% with 2 steals, 2 blocks
Stockton 15/4/9 on 50% with 2 steals, 1 block

Game scores: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9

Verdict: Draw


6) 1996 ECF versus Orlando

Pippen 19/7/7 on 45% with 2 steals
Penny 26/4/4 on 47% with 1 steal


7) 1992 Second Round against the Knicks

Pippen 16/8/7 on 40% with 2 steals, 1 block
McDaniel 19/6/2 on 50% with 1 steal


8) 1993 First Round against Atlanta

Pippen 15/4/5 on 42% with 2 steals
Willis 17/8/1 on 47% with 1 steal


9) 1988 1st Round


10) 1989 1st Round


11) 1989 2nd Round

Lol no one.. victory itt.. Most of that is copy paste of Roundball

[Roundball_Rock]

:applause:

PIPPEN > kj everyone but MJ dickriders know this

Exactly. They have gone bananas. KJ. Kyrie. What's next? Howard Eisley>Pippen?


Find a single GOAT list with KJ ranked higher.

He is still wondering why Kyrie wasn't 2nd instead of LeBron on ESPN. :oldlol:


And regular season totals mean what?

What happened in the playoffs? Suns and Bulls had the identical outcome. One with Barkley, one without Jordan. Any sane observer can detect the difference between the two team scenarios.

[Roundball_Rock]

3ball becomes the second MJ stan in recent days reduced to a repeat tape. Here is the real info that he is, as usual, deceiving about:



This is false.

Pippen Vs. Opposing #2 By Series

Game scores: Pippen 17.7, Vandeweghe 8.0
Game scores: Pippen 20.8, Hawkins 16.9
Game scores: Pippen 20.2, Dumars 7.1
Game scores: Pippen 17.5, Worthy 11.0
Game scores: Pippen 24.5, Seikaly 15.9
Game scores: Pippen 14.9, McDaniel 12.2
Game scores: Pippen 17.7, Daughtery 15.7
Game scores: Pippen 18.1, Porter 12.5
Game scores: Pippen 10.3, Willis 9.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.2, Daughtery 13.6
Game scores: Pippen 15.7, Starks 8.4
Game scores: Pippen 15.6, K. Johnson 10.2
Game scores: L. Johnson 15.8, Pippen 14.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.8, Penny 15.4
Game scores: Pippen 22.7, T. Hardaway 9.3
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Starks 8.1
Game scores: Pippen 16.6, Penny 15.6
Game scores: Kemp 18.9, Pippen 13.4
Game scores: Howard 14.0, Pippen 12.0
Game scores: Pippen 16.4, Laettner 9.4
Games scores: T. Hardaway 11.6*, Pippen* 10.8
Game scores: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9
Game scores: Pippen 16.2, Kittles 10.4
Game scores: Pippen 16.9, Mason 10.7
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Smits 10.9
Game scores: Pippen 13.0, Stockton 10.0

So Pippen was up 22-4 overall, 23-3 if you throw out Game 5 of the 97' ECF. If you look only at the NBA finals/ECF/ECSF Pippen leads 18-2 and that is 19-1 if you take out the injured 7 minute game in the 97' ECF.

*Pippen 12.7, Hardaway 9.6 through the first four games. Pippen played only 7 minutes in Game 5 and got only a 3.2 game score as a result.

[3ball]

Exactly. They have gone bananas. KJ. Kyrie. What's next? Howard Eisley>Pippen?



He is still wondering why Kyrie wasn't 2nd instead of LeBron on ESPN. :oldlol:

"Win totals mean what"? What happened in the playoffs? Suns and Bulls had the identical outcome.

The case you make for Pippen over KJ (rings, accolades) is the same case you defy for MJ over Bron.. it makes more sense (a lot more) to reduce the importance of rings for 2nd options, but you're doing it the other way around and reducing ring importance for the #1 option

The stats show that KJ was much better... And KJ's best accomplishment is superior... KJ is simply better and he 3-peats with mj from 88-90' (peak KJ upset Magic in 90' to make WCF)... Then MJ takes a year off and cones back to 3-peat with kemp

[Roundball_Rock]

Man, LeBron is causing insecure MJ stans to snap to the point of lunacy like KJ>Pippen. What happens if LeBron gets a 4th ring? :roll:

[Round Mound]

Exactly. They have gone bananas. KJ. Kyrie. What's next? Howard Eisley>Pippen?



He is still wondering why Kyrie wasn't 2nd instead of LeBron on ESPN. :oldlol:



What happened in the playoffs? Suns and Bulls had the identical outcome. One with Barkley, one without Jordan. Any sane observer can detect the difference between the two team scenarios.


:roll: Its incredible the things they do to try to downplay THE GOAT PERIMETER DEFENDER. :pimp::bowdown:

[3ball]

The case you guys make for Pippen over KJ (rings, accolades) is the same case you defy for MJ over Bron.. it makes more sense (a lot more) to reduce the importance of rings for 2nd options, but you're doing it the other way around and reducing ring importance for the #1 option

The stats show that KJ was much better... And KJ's best accomplishment is superior... KJ is simply better and he 3-peats with mj from 88-90' (peak KJ upset Magic in 90' to make WCF)... Then MJ takes a year off and cones back to 3-peat with kemp




I know im killing everyone in the argument because I'm quoting their garbage and responding to it, while they're afraid to quote my fire.. :lol... *I spit hot fire*

[3ball]

:roll: Its incredible the things they do to try to downplay THE GOAT PERIMETER DEFENDER. :pimp::bowdown:

Where's Pippen's legendary defensive plays like lebron, MJ or even tayshaun prince has?

Zero

Instead, he has numerous legendary plays where he's on the poster end

And he has no signature series as the primary defender, while everyone got their normal averages against him... And he was only worth the #7 team defense in 1st three-peat... So that's overrated personal and team defense
.

I post facts and you post delusions and erroneous group think... So sad

[Roundball_Rock]

:roll: Its incredible the things they do to try to downplay THE GOAT PERIMETER DEFENDER. :pimp::bowdown:

The insecurity is amazing and amusing. What are they going to do as LeBron keeps ratcheting up the pressure? MJ's "doc" is his last piece of evidence to submit, and even that is a rehash of his greatest hits. LeBron still has chapters to write in his book.

[Soundwave]

3ball and Roundball Rock are both wrong on this and go to extremes.

The Bulls did have a better top 2 players, but in large part because one of those players is the best player ever.

Other teams though quite often were actually deeper than the Bulls. The supporting cast for the Bulls did routinely get outscored by their comparable supporting cast on the other side.

The Bulls particularly in options 3/4/5 were often kind of a mediocre/average offensively. They were not like the 80s Lakers/Celtics that were loaded even at those spots.

The only comparable dynasty class team is the early 2000 Lakers, but the Lakers had two legit top 10 all-time players in Shaq AND Kobe both in their 20s to boot. No offence to Pippen but he no where close to the player Shaq or Kobe were.

[1987_Lakers]

* KJ was jealous of Barkley (everyone was bowing down to Barkley in the MVP day in 93 except the jealous KJ and bench player 33 year old Tom Chambers)


I love how you threw Tom Chambers in there. I'm sure it's true since you know everything about Barkley, but where did you get this info?

[Soundwave]

The insecurity is amazing and amusing. What are they going to do as LeBron keeps ratcheting up the pressure? MJ's "doc" is his last piece of evidence to submit, and even that is a rehash of his greatest hits. LeBron still has chapters to write in his book.

At age 36? lol.

You know you are on the losing end of this, the general public overwhelmingly chooses Jordan as GOAT, so do the current players, so do past players, so does the media.

LeBron needed to win a lot more in Miami and make much more hay in his 20s/early 30s than he did. He pissed that away and didn't do enough there. Make all the excuses as to why it couldn't be done, no one wants to hear it.

7-8 years from now, let alone 20, no one is going to care about a LeBron James documentary. He'll be looked at like how Shaq is looked at by kids today, they won't care and there will be some new dominant player that people will compare to Jordan (because he's the gold standard everyone is chasing and you betray that point by doing it yourself). The inevitable Kobe Bryant doc even will be more highly anticipated.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Bulls did have a better top 2 players, but in large part because one of those players is the best player ever.

Other teams though quite often were actually deeper than the Bulls. The supporting cast for the Bulls did routinely get outscored by their comparable supporting cast on the other side.

The Bulls particularly in options 3/4/5 were often kind of a mediocre/average offensively. They were not like the 80s Lakers/Celtics that were loaded even at those spots.

The only comparable dynasty class team is the early 2000 Lakers, but the Lakers had two legit top 10 all-time players in Shaq AND Kobe both in their 20s to boot. No offence to Pippen but he no where close to the player Shaq or Kobe were.

This is basically a softened version of what 3ball says. :lol


At age 36? lol.

He is going to finish 2nd in MVP this year and has a shot at a ring. Not exactly washed up.

[Soundwave]

This is basically a softened version of what 3ball says. :lol

And? It's blatantly obvious and you know it. If LeBron was going to be GOAT it would've been done 5-6 years ago, he didn't deliver the goods. End of story. You want loyalty, buy a dog, this is pro sports, no one wants some sob story of excuses.

To be honest he needs to win another title as the no.1 option just to maintain a position at 2/3/4, if he retires with only 3 titles, other players will overtake that and there will also be renewed discussion about why exactly he's above other players like Shaq and Kobe and Magic and Kareem when he won less.

He benefits from recency bias right now, that shit will fade and in time he will start dropping down that top 10 list.

[Roundball_Rock]

:roll: Its incredible the things they do to try to downplay THE GOAT PERIMETER DEFENDER. :pimp::bowdown:

The Bulls had the #2 defense without Jordan or Grant/Rodman in 95'. Which is why all we hear about is scoring. :oldlol:


...

Sure. Then why are you all so insecure? :lol Not just on ISH. Every sports group on Facebook. Every Twitter thread. Your representatives in the media.

[Soundwave]

Sure. Then why are you all so insecure? :lol Not just on ISH. Every sports group on Facebook. Every Twitter thread. Your representatives in the media.

You mean like the broader public then? Because the majority of them see Jordan as GOAT. General public, players, and media combined. Or I somehow control Twitter.

So the "persecution complex" you have arises from the fact that you simply have an opinion that is in a very small minority.

Quite frankly in 7-8 years I don't think LeBron will be thought of nearly as highly either. Kobe before he blew out his Achilles but still late in his career, there were still a lot of people when he was playing then that thought he had a shot at being GOAT. Nope. That's recency bias and that will always fade. Give it a few years.

[Roundball_Rock]

Same question: Then why are you all so insecure? If it is a wrap, pop a victory cigar and take a break from bashing LeBron and Pippen after years of doing so.

MJ has been losing market share (sure, coming down from 90% but the trajectory has been steady losses). Hence the insecurity.

[Soundwave]

Same question: Then why are you all so insecure? If it is a wrap, pop a victory cigar and take a break from bashing LeBron and Pippen after years of doing so.

Well I could ask you the same question ... what exactly do you think you're accomplishing? Even on ISH, LeBron can't even win the GOAT poll here, and he has probably his most fanatical fans here (outside of a straight up fan board).

To be honest to be on the other side I think would suck ass, lol. What do you have going for you? Dude is still mega popular 20 years after the fact, that's insane.

In the 90s, it must have been straight up hell ... I read like from November 1990 onwards Jordan never lost even 3 games in a row. Not even 3 straight 3 losses. For basically an entire decade. LOL. Like you can't even make this shit up. Imagine trying to hate this guy in his career and he's not even giving you 3 straight losses at any point to feel good about.

The only thing he ever gave his haters for an entire decade was a loss to the Magic coming out of baseball, which he then answered with a 72 win MVP season + kicking their asses so badly that Shaq went running for Lala land literally.

Dude's last freaking shot in a Bulls uni wins the NBA championship in one of the most iconic NBA moments ever.

Like sometimes I wonder about people on the other side of that fence and how bad that must suck, lol. After getting hit in the head with a baseball bat 5 times, I'd probably duck for the 6th.

Even if I hated the guy I'd just say he was a great player and move the f**k on, who needs to be abused again and again like that. The 90s would've broken me.

[1987_Lakers]

Quite frankly in 7-8 years I don't think LeBron will be thought of nearly as highly either. Kobe before he blew out his Achilles but still late in his career, there were still a lot of people when he was playing then that thought he had a shot at being GOAT. Nope. That's recency bias and that will always fade. Give it a few years.

lol, nobody thought Kobe was GOAT level. Even around 2013 or so nobody seriously had him in the top 5, I always saw him ranked in the #7-#10 range. LeBron on the other hand is a bigger threat, you see lots of people seriously have him in the top 3 and he is still going strong.

[RRR3]

LeBron is much more popular on realgm. You remove one guy and ISH is pretty anti LeBron.

[Soundwave]

lol, nobody thought Kobe was GOAT level. Even around 2013 or so nobody seriously had him in the top 5, I always saw him ranked in the #7-#10 range. LeBron on the other hand is a bigger threat, you see lots of people seriously have him in the top 3 and he is still going strong.

When he won title 5 he was what? 30 or 31? A lot of people thought he would win 2-3 more. Didn't happen. I remember a lot of people repeating over and over again, he got to 5 faster than MJ he has a shot at dethroning him.

Furious Laker fans when the CP3 trade got blocked because what it would mean for Kobe's legacy, then over the moon when the Lakers did get Dwight because a new championship era was beginning (as funny as that sounds now) etc. etc. etc.

When a player is still playing and still near their relative peak they benefit a lot from recency bias. That fades about 4-5 years after they retire if not sooner.

[3ball]

Same question: Then why are you all so insecure? If it is a wrap, pop a victory cigar and take a break from bashing LeBron and Pippen after years of doing so.

MJ has been losing market share (sure, coming down from 90% but the trajectory has been steady losses). Hence the insecurity.

First of all, I hope you're reading Soundwave's posts.. he's handing you your ass

Secondly, the reason I come on here and post about MJ is because people like you are spreading misinformation and misperceptions THAT ARE EASILY CORRECTED BY THE FACTS

Essentially, MJ is goat, so it's easy to articulate why, and to counter doubters... Basically, it's fun being so right about something and rubbing it in people's faces... :banana:.. it's fun way to entertain oneself... Being right is fun

[Lebron23]

This is basically a softened version of what 3ball says. :lol



He is going to finish 2nd in MVP this year and has a shot at a ring. Not exactly washed up.

At age 35 he might win the nba mvp because of the narrative of leading the lakers as the no.1 in the seed for the first time since the 2009-10 nba season.

[Roundball_Rock]

lol, nobody thought Kobe was GOAT level. Even around 2013 or so nobody seriously had him in the top 5, I always saw him ranked in the #7-#10 range. LeBron on the other hand is a bigger threat, you see lots of people seriously have him in the top 3 and he is still going strong.

Exactly. LeBron almost always is #2 on these lists now. When is the last time he wasn't? He is still going strong. It isn't outside the realm of possibility that he will surpass Jordan in public opinion when it is all said and done. This is why MJ stans are so insecure. They feel the footsteps behind them.

I suspect MJ will hold LeBron off for the next 10-15 years. LeBron will continue to gain, with Kareem probably continuing to make gains as well to a much lesser degree, but Jordan has such a lead it is hard to see LeBron surpassing him in the near term.

The big threat to MJ is what happens when he doesn't have 99% of the sports media worshiping him, when he is treated like a historical figure and evaluated the same way Kareem or Wilt is today. Compounding that, when that shift occurs it will be the LeBron generation at the controls taking the seats currently and long held by MJ lovers in the media.

[3ball]

At age 35 he might win the nba mvp because of the narrative of leading the lakers as the no.1 in the seed for the first since the 2009-10 nba playoffs.

Why didn't he do it last year

It's a false narrative - the roster changes allowed success this year - it's flat-out lying to say he's MVP

It's 3rd grade analysis to say "Lakers haven't made Playoffs forever".. literally dumb

[Soundwave]

Exactly. LeBron almost always is #2 on these lists now. When is the last time he wasn't? He is still going strong. It isn't outside the realm of possibility that he will surpass Jordan in public opinion when it is all said and done. This is why MJ stans are so insecure. They feel the footsteps behind them.

I suspect MJ will hold LeBron off for the next 10-15 years. LeBron will continue to gain, with Kareem probably continuing to make gains as well to a much lesser degree, but Jordan has such a lead it is hard to see LeBron surpassing him in the near term.

The big threat to MJ is what happens when he doesn't have 99% of the sports media worshiping him, when he is treated like a historical figure and evaluated the same way Kareem or Wilt is today. Compounding that, when that shift occurs it will be the LeBron generation at the controls taking the seats currently and long held by MJ lovers in the media.

A lot of people had Shaq and Kobe at no.2 at certain points in their career too.

Being no.2 now means you're going lower 4/5/6 years after you retire. There will be a new younger player all the young fans of that era like who will then be handed the mantle of "well this guy will dethrone Jordan".

But Jordan is the sole constant in that equation. People will compare the best player in the NBA 7-8 years from now to Jordan, he's the standard to judge by, which says enough.

If Kawhi wins another title there will be serious discussion about why he's not comparable to LeBron either. If Durant were to win another same deal. They will get moved onto that level by a lot of people.

[Roundball_Rock]

At age 35 he might win the nba mvp because of the narrative of leading the lakers as the no.1 in the seed for the first time since the 2009-10 nba season.

I think the suspension ended those chances. LeBron was making a run, the narrative was shifting and the Lakers catching the Bucks but all that came to a halt. It wouldn't be a shock if LeBron won but it is unlikely IMO.


A lot of people had Shaq and Kobe at no.2 at certain points in their career too.

Fans did but not reputable lists, other than Elliot Kalb. The difference with LeBron is the combination of expert and fan opinion both have him up to #2.


Being no.2 now means you're going lower 4/5/6 years after you retire. There will be a new younger player all the young fans of that era like who will then be handed the mantle of "well this guy will dethrone Jordan".

Based on what? Some players go up, some down when they retire.


If Kawhi wins another title there will be serious discussion about why he's not comparable to LeBron either. If Durant were to win another same deal.

This is delusional.

[Soundwave]

Winning an MVP at age 35 is special ... gee I wonder who else actually did that.

https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2020/05/screen-shot-2020-05-10-at-8.43.26-pm.jpg?w=1000&h=574&crop=1

[Soundwave]

Based on what? Some players go up, some down when they retire.




They don't really go up. When Hakeem was still near his peak, a lot of people had him top 5 after winning two titles in Houston, a lot of people forget that but that was a thing in the 90s.

Now some kids don't even freaking mention him in the top 15. Shaq likewise gets very little love.

Kobe when he was still a top player in the NBA was way up on a lot of people's lists and a lot of people thought he would topple Jordan even possibly.

Contrast that to how he was thought of say ... 4 months ago before the tragic events that occured. A lot more muted.

Once a player retires for 4-5 years, a much more somber reality sets in and attention goes to the newer crop of players who the kids like. That's how it goes.

If you asked people circa 1989 who's the greatest ever, a lot of people would say Magic Johnson, now he's generally ranked 4-7.

There are a few athletes that are outliers to that, like Jordan, Gretzky, Ruth, Ali ... but you have to basically transcend the sport and become iconic is a different way to achieve that and its basically one per sport.

Things fade ****ing fast, two years ago the Warriors were the greatest dynasty ever, now even that narrative starts to feel a little dated.

[Roundball_Rock]

Winning an MVP at age 35 is special ... gee I wonder who else actually did that.

It would be important for three reasons:

1) It would tie MJ, who a lot of fans think holds all records (since the media will make it sound like it by omitting older players).
2) It would put him 1 within Kareem for the real record.
3) The length of time involved. He was 2nd in MVP in 2006 and will be 1st or 2nd in 2020. Only Kareem can rival that long a time as being a MVP level player. Longevity will be a big part of the LeBron>MJ argument in case you all haven't realized that.

Jordan at 35 isn't the same as LeBron at 35. Jordan missed basically 3 seasons and started later.


They don't really go up. When Hakeem was still near his peak, a lot of people had him top 5 after winning two titles in Houston, a lot of people forget that but that was a thing in the 90s.

Hakeem was borderline top 10 a decade ago but now is creeping ahead of Shaq, Duncan and sometimes ahead of one or multiple of KAJ, Wilt, or Russell on fan lists. Hakeem is the biggest riser in that top dozen.

Shaq consistently seems to get lower on lists as time elapses.

Kareem rose, fell, and now is rising again.

Russell, Wilt have continued to slide for decades.

Oscar went from GOAT candidate to outside the top 10.

Things change, perception changes, criteria change. Jordan was declared GOAT with 3 rings and 3 MVP's. That would be considered absurd today with the current emphasis on rings.

[3ball]

It would be important for three reasons:

1) It would tie MJ, who a lot of fans think holds all records (since the media will make it sound like it by omitting older players).
2) It would put him 1 within Kareem for the real record.
3) The length of time involved. He was 2nd in MVP in 2006 and will be 1st or 2nd in 2020. Only Kareem can rival that long a time as being a MVP level player. Longevity will be a big part of the LeBron>MJ argument in case you all haven't realized that.

^^^ more lies

Lebron went 7 years in his prime without MVP (13-20')

So cut the mvp-longevity crap... It's a lie

And longevity is a drawback because he needs way more games to do the same shit, even though he gets a fresh new league favorite cast of prime young studs every 4 years... 3 rings in 17 years is HORRIBLE conpared to other guys, especially when you stacked the deck

[Roundball_Rock]

^^^ more lies

Lebron went 7 years in his prime without MVP (13-20')

So cut the mvp-longevity crap... It's a lie


MVP Award Shares

2003-04 NBA 0.009 (9)
2004-05 NBA 0.073 (6)
2005-06 NBA 0.550 (2)
2006-07 NBA 0.142 (5)
2007-08 NBA 0.348 (4)
2008-09 NBA 0.969 (1)
2009-10 NBA 0.980 (1)
2010-11 NBA 0.431 (3)
2011-12 NBA 0.888 (1)
2012-13 NBA 0.998 (1)
2013-14 NBA 0.713 (2)
2014-15 NBA 0.425 (3)
2015-16 NBA 0.482 (3)
2016-17 NBA 0.330 (4)
2017-18 NBA 0.731 (2)
2018-19 NBA 0.001 (11)
2020 either 1st or 2nd

The above speaks for itself.


3 rings in 17 years is HORRIBLE conpared to other guys, especially when you stacked the deck

His teams went straight to the lottery without him. :lol

[Soundwave]

It would be important for three reasons:

1) It would tie MJ, who a lot of fans think holds all records (since the media will make it sound like it by omitting older players).
2) It would put him 1 within Kareem for the real record.
3) The length of time involved. He was 2nd in MVP in 2006 and will be 1st or 2nd in 2020. Only Kareem can rival that long a time as being a MVP level player. Longevity will be a big part of the LeBron>MJ argument in case you all haven't realized that.

Jordan at 35 isn't the same as LeBron at 35. Jordan missed basically 3 seasons and started later.



Hakeem was borderline top 10 a decade ago but now is creeping ahead of Shaq, Duncan and sometimes ahead of one or multiple of KAJ, Wilt, or Russell on fan lists. Hakeem is the biggest riser in that top dozen.

Shaq consistently seems to get lower on lists as time elapses.

Kareem rose, fell, and now is rising again.

Russell, Wilt have continued to slide for decades.

Oscar went from GOAT candidate to outside the top 10.

Things change, perception changes, criteria change. Jordan was declared GOAT with 3 rings and 3 MVP's. That would be considered absurd today with the current emphasis on rings.

Which is exactly my point ... if Jordan stayed retired after 1993 and only had the 3 titles on his resume ... he probably is not the unanimous GOAT the way he is thought of today by the public/players/media.

In '93 some of that was valid but he was benefitting from recency bias too at that time.

The 3 extra titles coming back and doing so in a dramatic f*ck you to any critics (especially after many left him for dead after the Orlando series) he had left is the insurance policy he needed. It's hard enough to win 1 3-peat that no other team has done it in the modern era other than Shaq + Kobe, but to have two three-peats is ridiculous.

So that's why 20 years later he's still the gold standard that everyone else has to compare themselves to him. No one gives a wet fart about where they rank compare like Kareem, rightly or wrongly.

[G-train]

Basketball is intrinsically and holistically a team sport. I don't see any true way to compare players from one season, let alone across decades. You can try to use numbers, but inevitably it is just in support of your opinion. Firstly, in reality there is no such thing as a sidekick. 2ndly, Pippen was an amazing athlete and skilled basketballer with strengths and weakness. When watching the games he played, obvious to even an untrained eye, he often impacted both ends as much as anyone not named Michael Jordan within said games. He was a key contributor bearing high responsibility on a extremely successful team across many seasons. That's all you can really say.

[3ball]

MVP Award Shares

2003-04 NBA 0.009 (9)
2004-05 NBA 0.073 (6)
2005-06 NBA 0.550 (2)
2006-07 NBA 0.142 (5)
2007-08 NBA 0.348 (4)
2008-09 NBA 0.969 (1)
2009-10 NBA 0.980 (1)
2010-11 NBA 0.431 (3)
2011-12 NBA 0.888 (1)
2012-13 NBA 0.998 (1)
2013-14 NBA 0.713 (2)
2014-15 NBA 0.425 (3)
2015-16 NBA 0.482 (3)
2016-17 NBA 0.330 (4)
2017-18 NBA 0.731 (2)
2018-19 NBA 0.001 (11)
2020 either 1st or 2nd

The above speaks for itself.



His teams went straight to the lottery without him. :lol

He wasn't MVP for 7 years in his prime, while MJ was MVP consistently from 88-98'

MJ had better MVP longevity and it's not close

MJ was consistently MVP, while lebron was for a couple years, and then was exploited/solved for 7 years... Then he finally gets consideration in 2020, but wrongly.. the roster changes caused Lakers success this year, while lebron was lottery the prior year

[Roundball_Rock]

if Jordan stayed retired after 1993 and only had the 3 titles on his resume ... he probably is not the unanimous GOAT the way he is thought of today by the public/players/media.

He already was by the time he retired. That shows how powerful the media has been in pushing his candidacy. What happens when the Jordan generations (those who watched him play as adults or as kids) no longer control the media? Jordan's candidacy isn't resume based.

[G-train]

He already was by the time he retired. That shows how powerful the media has been in pushing his candidacy. What happens when the Jordan generations (those who watched him play as adults or as kids) no longer control the media? Jordan's candidacy isn't resume based.

I agree. But they cannot take away 72-10 paired with a title :)

[Soundwave]

He already was by the time he retired. That shows how powerful the media has been in pushing his candidacy. What happens when the Jordan generations (those who watched him play as adults or as kids) no longer control the media? Jordan's candidacy isn't resume based.


That happens to every player, if LeBron could win 4 titles in a row (one more than MJ, as MJ did to Bird/Magic who didn't 3 peat which was the narrative in 93), the same would've been said of him (he didn't come close of course, so cue the excuses) if you asked people the summer after the third title.

Recency bias is something every player benefits from, you lose it 4-5 years after you retire in most cases, there's usually in every sport one outlier ... Jordan in basketball, Gretzky in hockey, Ali in boxing, etc.

Same sh*t will happen to LeBron. Some kid who's 3-5 years old now is not going to give a shit about LeBron James 10 years from now. Happens to everyone.

[Round Mound]

I love how you threw Tom Chambers in there. I'm sure it's true since you know everything about Barkley, but where did you get this info?

Its in video i thnk the Sir Charles video of 94. Every other teamate of Barkley is bowing down for fun you know...and then you see KJ and Chambers just standing there together etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbli0z-qSws

Minute 35:04

[Roundball_Rock]

That happens to every player, if LeBron could win 3 titles in a row, the same would've been said of him (he didn't cue the excuses) if you asked people the summer after the third title.

I am not aware of any athlete being declared the GOAT by the media that early. Can you name an example? Brady is the other one who is similar to Jordan in being a near consensus GOAT in the media but that didn't begin until he had been playing for 15 seasons or so. No one was saying Brady was GOAT in 2009.

With someone like Tiger in golf or Jeff Gordon and later Jimmie Johnson in auto racing it was mentioned they were on track to potentially be GOAT but neither was declared GOAT halfway through their careers.

The ESPN list has LeBron 2nd but Duncan, Shaq, Kobe are 8-10. They are all recent players. There is a difference between LeBron and the others.

Where do you expect LeBron to fall to? Note that the guy who usually is #2 or #3 is Kareem, whose rookie year was 1970. Some legends have staying power--and Kareem has been gaining ground without media pushing of him. 10 years ago on ISH no one other than me, Fatal and a couple others had him as GOAT. Now probably 15% of ISH does.

[3ball]

Exactly. LeBron almost always is #2 on these lists now. When is the last time he wasn't? He is still going strong. It isn't outside the realm of possibility that he will surpass Jordan in public opinion when it is all said and done. This is why MJ stans are so insecure. They feel the footsteps behind them.

I suspect MJ will hold LeBron off for the next 10-15 years. LeBron will continue to gain, with Kareem probably continuing to make gains as well to a much lesser degree, but Jordan has such a lead it is hard to see LeBron surpassing him in the near term.

The big threat to MJ is what happens when he doesn't have 99% of the sports media worshiping him, when he is treated like a historical figure and evaluating the same way Kareem or Wilt is today. Compounding that, when that shift occurs it will be the LeBron generation at the controls taking the seats currently and long held by MJ lovers in the media.

MJ was called the GOAT by Isiah and Magic during the 1993 Finals, while also saying the Bulls were a 1-man team and "only Jordan":

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s


Carry on

[Round Mound]

I don´t think Lebron is better than MJ but when MJ stans and dickeriders say Pippen was not a great player in his own right that pisses me off because its not true. Even statistical evidence shows Pippen was ATLEAST A TOP 10 PLAYER IN THE 90's...

[Roundball_Rock]

I don´t think Lebron is better than MJ but when MJ stans and dickeriders say Pippen was not a great player in his own right that pisses me off because its not true. Even statistical evidence shows Pippen was ATLEAST A TOP 10 PLAYER IN THE 90's...

Agreed on all. That they are trying to re-write history is ridiculous. In another thread they claimed Pippen was never considered a superstar. I brought the receipts and they cut and run. Let's see what they do here. :D

Let's look at what the media was actually saying about Pippen in real time. These are all from marquee coverage: the flagship NBC telecasts, TNT telecasts, Sports Illustrated, etc. Not articles from the podunkville times. These cover 1992-1998 so a large time sample.

Media Coverage of Pippen 1992-1998

You have Marv Albert and Mike Fratello on NBC referring to the "two superstars" and talking about how Jordan and Pippen struggling is why there is a Game 7 in 1992. Go to the 1:25 mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEqGRf6AMGc

Hubie Brown on TNT talking about Pippen being a MVP candidate along with Hakeem, David Robinson in the opening to this 1994 playoff game. 10 second mark .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7mhQAuhDzw

Let's go to 1995 (TNT). "Two of the NBA's biggest stars go head to head as Charles Barkley and Scottie Pippen.." for the intro open at the top of the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlMmEo8UfvQ

Time for 1996 (ESPN). This is a segment where Bob Ryan is saying Pippen=Jordan during a Sunday morning show. Go to the end of the video. Here is the exchange:

1995-96 season ESPN Sunday Conversation


Roy Firestone interviewing Scottie: "They are saying this is an MVP season for you..."

Bob Ryan: "This guy gives them elements on the court that are unattainable, unapproachable anywhere else..."

Dick Schaap: "Is he is good as his teammate?"

Ryan: "Well, as a matter of fact technically he is, but he doesn't have the aura of Michael Jordan but he can do things--in a package--that is unsurpassed in the NBA today..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTRqNvUSACE

Also from 1996, why would Dream Team III players most want to be Pippen, a scrub?


If you could be any other player here who would it be?

It was a question I'd asked 12 years ago to Dream Team III: [/B]Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley, Penny Hardaway, Gary Payton, Shaq.

Their answers lent insight into which players they respected, whose game they feared. Back then Scottie Pippen's name came up the most. Five out of the 12 players on that team wanted to be, even if for one game, Jordan's Green Hornet. When asked, "Why Pip?" it was Miller who explained it best: "Because Pippen can score only five points and still dominate a basketball game."

[Roundball_Rock]

Matt Guokas (1996 on NBC): “Scottie Pippen, the best all-around player in the game.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJQvk...e=channel_page

How about 1997 action? Sports Illustrated. The title?
EXTENDING HIMSELF NOT EVEN YOU KNOW WHO HAS BEEN MORE VALUABLE THAN SCOTTIE PIPPEN IN THE BULLS' POSTSEASON RUN

Pippen's performance on Sunday certified that he--as much as Jordan--has been the Bulls' MVP throughout the
postseason.

Sports Illustrated: Pippen is the second best player in the league (1997). I don't have the link but you can look for it in 97' SI articles.

Let's get to 1998. Sports Illustrated again:


Pippen's absence, however, has shown how vital a cog he is in
the Bulls' machine. While Pippen has long been recognized as one
of the game's top players, his accolades customarily have come
with an addendum: He couldn't have done it without Jordan. What
hadn't occurred to many observers was that perhaps Jordan
couldn't have done it without Pippen.
https://vault.si.com/vault/1997/11/2...-just-to-score

I could go on all day but you get the point as I showed you real time media coverage from 1992-1998.

[3ball]

I don´t think Lebron is better than MJ but when MJ stans and dickeriders say Pippen was not a great player in his own right that pisses me off because its not true. Even statistical evidence shows Pippen was ATLEAST A TOP 10 PLAYER IN THE 90's...

At Pippen's peak, he was clearly behind Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Ewing, Malone, Barkley, MJ, Grant Hill and Penny..

^^^ he was definitely worse than all those guys, while the peaks of guys like Payton, KJ, Kemp and many others match or exceed Pippen... Finally, Roundball showed that jordan won over a dozen series where Pippen was outplayed by the 2nd or 3rd option

[Roundball_Rock]

At Pippen's peak, he was clearly behind Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Ewing, Malone, Barkley, MJ, Grant Hill and Penny..

^^^ he was definitely worse than all those guys, while the peaks of guys like Payton, KJ, Kemp and many others match or exceed Pippen...

:facepalm

Soundwave do you disagree with any of this?

His "quote" about my post is a falsehood. He keeps lying hoping no one will call him out.

[Round Mound]

Agreed on all. That they are trying to re-write history is ridiculous. In another thread they claimed Pippen was never considered a superstar. I brought the receipts and they cut and run. Let's see what they do here. :D

Let's look at what the media was actually saying about Pippen in real time. These are all from marquee coverage: the flagship NBC telecasts, TNT telecasts, Sports Illustrated, etc. Not articles from the podunkville times. These cover 1992-1998 so a large time sample.

Media Coverage of Pippen 1992-1998

You have Marv Albert and Mike Fratello on NBC referring to the "two superstars" and talking about how Jordan and Pippen struggling is why there is a Game 7 in 1992. Go to the 1:25 mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEqGRf6AMGc

Hubie Brown on TNT talking about Pippen being a MVP candidate along with Hakeem, David Robinson in the opening to this 1994 playoff game. 10 second mark .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7mhQAuhDzw

Let's go to 1995 (TNT). "Two of the NBA's biggest stars go head to head as Charles Barkley and Scottie Pippen.." for the intro open at the top of the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlMmEo8UfvQ

Time for 1996 (ESPN). This is a segment where Bob Ryan is saying Pippen=Jordan during a Sunday morning show. Go to the end of the video. Here is the exchange:

1995-96 season ESPN Sunday Conversation


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTRqNvUSACE

Also from 1996, why would Dream Team III players most want to be Pippen, a scrub?

:cheers::applause::rockon:

[3ball]

MJ was called the GOAT by Isiah and Magic during the 1993 Finals, while also saying the Bulls were a 1-man team and "only Jordan":

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s


Carry on



MJ was considered goat BEFORE he won his 3rd ring.... :bowdown:

[Round Mound]

At Pippen's peak, he was clearly behind Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Ewing, Malone, Barkley, MJ, Grant Hill and Penny..

^^^ he was definitely worse than all those guys, while the peaks of guys like Payton, KJ, Kemp and many others match or exceed Pippen... Finally, Roundball showed that jordan won over a dozen series where Pippen was outplayed by the 2nd or 3rd option

Best 90's Players IMO

1-MJ
2-Hakeem
3-Barkley
4-Malone
5-Shaq
6-Robinson
7-Ewing
8-Drexler
9-Pippen
10-Stockton or Payton

Then you got Shawn Kemp, Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Alonzo Mourning, Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller etc

[Roundball_Rock]

What 3ball and others say isn't for the decade as a whole or all-time. He is saying Pippen was a borderline top 10 player at his absolute peak (1994-1996). There was another MJ stan who backed him up on this in that other thread.

The closest thing we have to a "top players" list is all-NBA and this was the voting in his peak years:

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1994

1) Pippen (forward) 94
2) Hakeem (center) 68
3) Malone (forward) 65
4) Stockton (guard) 56
5) Sprewell (guard) 29

Pippen crushed everyone in the voting. You can let Hakeem slide because he was at the same position as Robinson and that cost him a lot of votes. Robinson was considered on par with Hakeem at the time. However, look at Pippen's vote and compare that to the other forwards and guards. Karl Malone was a top 5 player for practically all of the 90's, right? Pippen crushed him 94-68 in the voting. No, Pippen playing SF and Malone PF was not a factor. All-NBA voting is done on a forward/center/guard basis. Several times in the 90's two PF's, especially Malone and Barkley, took the two forward spots on the first team.

A quick internet search revealed the following for his other peak seasons:


Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1995

1) Malone (F) 519
2) Robinson (C) 479
3) Pippen (F) 451
4) Stockton (G) 447
5) P. Hardaway (G) 394

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/12/sp...s-all-nba.html

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1996

1) Jordan (G) 113 (unanimous)
2) Pippen (F) 91
3) Hardaway (G) 90
4) Malone (F) 89
5) Robinson (C) 65

Since we know there were 113 voters Pippen received 81% of the vote. He got hurt during the final fifth of the season and his production declined so that surely cost him some votes. The margin between him and #3 and #4 would be greater if he didn't get hurt. Still, the guy gets hurt and averages 15 ppg for one-fifth of the season (21-22 ppg before that) and he still gets more votes than anyone not named Jordan.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/05/24/sp...tar-again.html

This is voting for the all-NBA team. Regarding the all-Defensive team, Pippen received the most votes in 1994. And in 1995. And in 1996. Yes, also in 1997. So to recap, these were his finishes during his peak:

All-NBA voting: 1st, 3rd, 2nd
All-Defensive voting: 1st, 1st, 1st

[3ball]

What 3ball and others say isn't for the decade as a whole or all-time. He is saying Pippen was a borderline top 10 player at his absolute peak (1994-1996). There was another MJ stan who backed him up on this in that other thread.

The closest thing we have to a "top players" list is all-NBA and this was the voting in his peak years:

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1994

1) Pippen (forward) 94
2) Hakeem (center) 68
3) Malone (forward) 65
4) Stockton (guard) 56
5) Sprewell (guard) 29

Pippen crushed everyone in the voting. You can let Hakeem slide because he was at the same position as Robinson and that cost him a lot of votes. Robinson was considered on par with Hakeem at the time. However, look at Pippen's vote and compare that to the other forwards and guards. Karl Malone was a top 5 player for practically all of the 90's, right? Pippen crushed him 94-68 in the voting. No, Pippen playing SF and Malone PF was not a factor. All-NBA voting is done on a forward/center/guard basis. Several times in the 90's two PF's, especially Malone and Barkley, took the two forward spots on the first team.

A quick internet search revealed the following for his other peak seasons:


Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1995

1) Malone (F) 519
2) Robinson (C) 479
3) Pippen (F) 451
4) Stockton (G) 447
5) P. Hardaway (G) 394

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/12/sp...s-all-nba.html

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1996

1) Jordan (G) 113 (unanimous)
2) Pippen (F) 91
3) Hardaway (G) 90
4) Malone (F) 89
5) Robinson (C) 65

Since we know there were 113 voters Pippen received 81% of the vote. He got hurt during the final fifth of the season and his production declined so that surely cost him some votes. The margin between him and #3 and #4 would be greater if he didn't get hurt. Still, the guy gets hurt and averages 15 ppg for one-fifth of the season (21-22 ppg before that) and he still gets more votes than anyone not named Jordan.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/05/24/sp...tar-again.html

This is voting for the all-NBA team. Regarding the all-Defensive team, Pippen received the most votes in 1994. And in 1995. And in 1996. Yes, also in 1997. So to recap, these were his finishes during his peak:

All-NBA voting: 1st, 3rd, 2nd
All-Defensive voting: 1st, 1st, 1st

Most valuable doesn't = best

It's based a lot on circumstance

Pippen only got 2 first-team all-nba and he didn't deserve it in 96'.. no way he was the best SF his in 96... Schrempf was close to Pippen... Actually better in many ways

guys like Glenn Robinson would destroy Pippen on any given night... Pippen was a 18 ppg player... He was worse than guys like Mashburn on many nights... With only 18 ppg, many guys destroyed him... He was the opposite of a juggernaut

[Roundball_Rock]

What 3ball and others say isn't for the decade as a whole or all-time. He is saying Pippen was a borderline top 10 player at his absolute peak (1994-1996). There was another MJ stan who backed him up on this in that other thread.

The closest thing we have to a "top players" list is all-NBA and this was the voting in his peak years:

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1994

1) Pippen (forward) 94
2) Hakeem (center) 68
3) Malone (forward) 65
4) Stockton (guard) 56
5) Sprewell (guard) 29

Pippen crushed everyone in the voting. You can let Hakeem slide because he was at the same position as Robinson and that cost him a lot of votes. Robinson was considered on par with Hakeem at the time. However, look at Pippen's vote and compare that to the other forwards and guards. Karl Malone was a top 5 player for practically all of the 90's, right? Pippen crushed him 94-68 in the voting. No, Pippen playing SF and Malone PF was not a factor. All-NBA voting is done on a forward/center/guard basis. Several times in the 90's two PF's, especially Malone and Barkley, took the two forward spots on the first team.

A quick internet search revealed the following for his other peak seasons:


Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1995

1) Malone (F) 519
2) Robinson (C) 479
3) Pippen (F) 451
4) Stockton (G) 447
5) P. Hardaway (G) 394

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/12/sp...s-all-nba.html

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1996

1) Jordan (G) 113 (unanimous)
2) Pippen (F) 91
3) Hardaway (G) 90
4) Malone (F) 89
5) Robinson (C) 65

Since we know there were 113 voters Pippen received 81% of the vote. He got hurt during the final fifth of the season and his production declined so that surely cost him some votes. The margin between him and #3 and #4 would be greater if he didn't get hurt. Still, the guy gets hurt and averages 15 ppg for one-fifth of the season (21-22 ppg before that) and he still gets more votes than anyone not named Jordan.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/05/24/sp...tar-again.html

This is voting for the all-NBA team. Regarding the all-Defensive team, Pippen received the most votes in 1994. And in 1995. And in 1996. Yes, also in 1997. So to recap, these were his finishes during his peak:

All-NBA voting: 1st, 3rd, 2nd
All-Defensive voting: 1st, 1st, 1st

That is 3 all-NBA first teams and he was 1st, 3rd, 2nd in the overall voting those years.

Your beloved Kyrie doesn't have 3 total all-NBA teams. Kemp, KJ, etc. never made first team.

[Round Mound]

PIPPEN´s broken down stats. You say he was NOT A TOP 10 PLAYER IN THE 90's? Check This Out

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th) *Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)

* Especially the 1 YEAR WITHOUT MJ and a little bit of the next season

:confusedshrug:

[Roundball_Rock]

He and other MJ stans have been pushing Kemp, Kyrie and Kevin Johnson for weeks. Now 3ball is sliding to Schrempf, Mashburn, Glenn Robinson.

Reminder: all this because he is insecure about MJ and afraid LeBron is going to surpass him. :roll:

[3ball]

That is 3 all-NBA first teams and he was 1st, 3rd, 2nd in the overall voting those years.

Your beloved Kyrie doesn't have 3 total all-NBA teams. Kemp, KJ, etc. never made first team.

Accolades are based on team success and as worthless as rings

Only stats tell the story

It's funny that guys who are normally stat bots are now looking for deeper reasons why Pippen didn't suck... But you guys don't know enough about the game to cite higher-level reasoning.. the reality is that the reason Pippen was tough was because he wore guys down... He wasn't some lightweight that's easy to bump off his spot and jostle with on the glass like say, Paul George or Curry... It wears you down to run the floor and bang the glass with someone like Pippen, which hurts your energy/capacity for offense.. so pippen's advantage was mostly athletic, which helps win the attrition battle... But that's not enough to counter the advantages of others, aka shooting/spacing/scoring/firepower/clutch

[Round Mound]

Accolades are based on team success and as worthless as rings

Only stats tell the story

It's funny that guys who are normally stat bots are now looking for deeper reasons why Pippen didn't suck... But you guys don't know enough about the game to cite higher-level reasoning.. the reality is that the reason Pippen was tough was because he wore guys down... He wasn't some lightweight that's easy to bump off his spot and jostle with on the glass like say, Paul George or Curry... It wears you down to run the floor and bang the glass with someone like Pippen, which hurts your energy/capacity for offense.. so pippen's advantage was mostly athletic, which helps win the attrition battle... But that's not enough to counter the advantages of others, aka shooting/spacing/scoring/firepower/clutch

We all know Pippen wasn't the clutchest or best scorer but without MJ 22 PPG on 49.1% FG is that bad offensively? Now Defensively Pippen was easily THE GOAT PERIMETER DEFENDER,

All broken down stats (NOT RAW STATS) show Pippen was AN ELITE TOP 10 PLAYER in THE 90's and ESPECIALLY WITHOUT MJ.

:confusedshrug:

[Soundwave]

:facepalm

Soundwave do you disagree with any of this?

His "quote" about my post is a falsehood. He keeps lying hoping no one will call him out.

I don't really disagree with that, Round Mound also made a list and I'd more or less agree with that.

Grant Hill and Penny are harder to contextualize. One of the great tragedies (as it were) of the modern NBA is Grant Hill and Penny Hardaway both getting injured just as they were entering their primes.

I think had Grant Hill not gotten hurt, you're probably talking a 25/7/6 type player for several more years. Is that better than Pippen, I think probably yes. Grant Hill was kinda like a more finesse version of LeBron before LeBron.

Penny I'm a little biased towards as he was my favorite player as a kid, but I think Penny was such a unique talent, I think the most talented player over 6'5 at passing the ball after Magic, some of the passes he could make were amazing. Really nice shooter, very good athleticism, 6'7 frame, pretty good defender, clutch player. He got injured and then basically the Kobe train took off that was curtains for Penny. It's a shame though.

In 96-97 with Shaq gone and Grant or Anderson as the no.2 option, the Magic played at a 53 win rate with Penny in the lineup (he was hurt for about 20 games unfortunately). That's just about as good as Pippen Bulls in 94. He also had a spectacular playoffs that year where he put up two 40+ point games against the Heat and then another 33 point game.

Destroyed his knee fully the next year and was never the same player, but I think he was finally becoming "the man" in Orlando towards the end of that year.

[Roundball_Rock]

I think had Grant Hill not gotten hurt, you're probably talking a 25/7/6 type player for several more years

Here is the problem with the Hill stuff. He was 28 when he got hurt so he had already entered the front end of his peak seasons. People always bring up his scoring but these are his scoring lines before injuries: 20, 20, 21, 21, 21, 26. The fact is facilitators, whether PG's or point forwards, didn't score more than around 20 PPG in that era.


Is that better than Pippen, I think probably yes. Grant Hill was kinda like a more finesse version of LeBron before LeBron.

On offense sure but they aren't close on defense. Hill's overall line pre-injury was 22/8/6. Prime Pippen was 20/7/6. Do the extra 2 points and extra rebound offset the difference in defense? I don't think so.


Penny I'm a little biased towards as he was my favorite player as a kid, but I think Penny was such a unique talent

Penny is different. He is like Rose. We never got a glimpse of what his peak version would be.

I place Pippen 3rd as his highest single season rank but for the decade as a whole my list would be:

1) Jordan
2) Hakeem
3) Malone
4) Barkley
5) Robinson
6) Pippen
7) Ewing
8) Drexler
9) Stockton
10) Shaq

Shaq is this low only because he didn't play at all for 30% of the decade.