Bruce Bowen: "Kobe is number 2 behind Jordan, not Lebron."

[34-24 Footwork]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Npef-CK0wGw

Damn. He even goes into detail about how he couldn't find any answers for Kobe and couldn't go underneath screens or else he'll get burned.

[34-24 Footwork]

Why does Bowen choose Kobe and no Lebron? He's played against both guys?

[dreamshake]

Yup, most NBA players recognize Kobe being better than LeBron all time. It's only ESPN stat nerds and guys who never played professional basketball who think the opposite.

[LAL]

And he played with tim duncan? Parker said the same thing, weird.

[34-24 Footwork]

And he played with tim duncan? Parker said the same thing, weird.

Yeah. Damn. Weird, right?

[LAL]

Yeah. Damn. Weird, right?

So weird

[tpols]

players that played against both respect kobe more than lebron

especially the spurs who always gave lebron that work, while getting shit on by kobe.

[Manny98]

No one cares what bum Bruce Bowen thinks

[Whoah10115]

Y'all should use this as proof of Kobe, not proof against LeBron.

Tho I hope DMavs comes in and reminds us that Dirk said Kobe was the best he played against because of yheir rivalry with the Spurs.

[LAL]

Y'all should use this as proof of Kobe, not proof against LeBron.

Tho I hope DMavs comes in and reminds us that Dirk said Kobe was the best he played against because of yheir rivalry with the Spurs.

LOL

[Turbo Slayer]

No one cares what bum Bruce Bowen thinks He was 8X All-Defensive so yeah...

Let's call a player with 8 All Defensive selections a bum? Yeah?

[Bronbron23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Npef-CK0wGw

Damn. He even goes into detail about how he couldn't find any answers for Kobe and couldn't go underneath screens or else he'll get burned.

alot of players who's played against both say this. Stat geeks wouldn't understand though im sure a bunch on here will anyway.

[Bankaii]

Anybody that thinks Kobe is the 2nd GOAT automatically loses all accreditation.
That’s just idiotic, regardless of his Kobe vs Lebron opinion.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Why would he say Kobe is number 2? He played with Tim Duncan for years. Does he have a beef with him?

[dreamshake]

Why would he say Kobe is number 2? He played with Tim Duncan for years. Does he have a beef with him?

Real recognizes real.

[RogueBorg]

No one cares what bum Bruce Bowen thinks

Of course you don't. Flip it around and you'd be littering up the place with your "Another one" gif.

[LAL]

Anybody that thinks Kobe is the 2nd GOAT automatically loses all accreditation.
That’s just idiotic, regardless of his Kobe vs Lebron opinion.

It's not idiotic, it's unpopular.

[jstern]

I just read a comment saying that Manu was better than Kobe, because higher VORP. It's just funny how in this era people who probably have low GPAs are stat nerds.

[34-24 Footwork]

Anybody that thinks Kobe is the 2nd GOAT automatically loses all accreditation.
That’s just idiotic, regardless of his Kobe vs Lebron opinion.

You still think you can beat Isaiah Thomas 1vs1? Maybe its not Bruce Bowen's credibility that needs to be assessed...

[34-24 Footwork]

Why would he say Kobe is number 2? He played with Tim Duncan for years. Does he have a beef with him?

maybe he genuinely thinks Kobe is better. Shrugs.

[Indian guy]

Reason #234343456 why there's no opinion more worthless than an athlete's when it comes to judging someone in totality. A particular aspect of the game? Sure. Their entire body of work and where they stand in history compared to somebody else? They don't have a ****ing clue. Their opinion is based on nothing but highly selective memory and whatever tingles they are feeling for that particular player at the moment. Most of them change their opinion every 2 days. What they think is worthless.

Regardless of what Bowen thinks about Kobe/LeBron, everybody can agree Kobe doesn't have anywhere close to the #2 resume in NBA history. Yet Bowen considers him #2 because, I guess, he found him really tough to guard. And we all know Bowen's guarded everybody in NBA history. And this is essentially the genius behind the workings of an athlete's brain. "He very tough to guard and competitive, so naturally, he's 2nd GOAT". No knowledge of anything else required.

[Bronbron23]

Anybody that thinks Kobe is the 2nd GOAT automatically loses all accreditation.
That’s just idiotic, regardless of his Kobe vs Lebron opinion.

I dont have kobe as 2nd goat but i wouldn't think its idiotic to for anyone to say otherwise. Alot of players whos played against both say kobe was better. Whats idiotic is for some stat geek whos never played the game on that level telling others who did and who played against both that they're idiotic.

[dreamshake]

I dont have kobe as 2nd goat but i wouldn't think its idiotic to for anyone to say otherwise. Alot of players whos played against both say kobe was better. Whats idiotic is for some stat geek whos never played the game on that level telling others who did and who played against both that they're idiotic.

Amen! Preach on brother.

[Rysio]

Kobe was better at most important thing, scoring so id agree.

[deathawaitu]

It's a consensus in the basketball world for fans and players that Kobe is ranked higher than Lebron

Only the media and Lebron stans believe Lebron is the Goat. But they are in the minority, similiar to the number of people who still think the Earth is flat

[LAL]

Reason #234343456 why there's no opinion more worthless than an athlete's when it comes to judging someone in totality. A particular aspect of the game? Sure. Their entire body of work and where they stand in history compared to somebody else? They don't have a ****ing clue. Their opinion is based on nothing but highly selective memory and whatever tingles they are feeling for that particular player at the moment. Most of them change their opinion every 2 days. What they think is worthless.

Regardless of what Bowen thinks about Kobe/LeBron, everybody can agree Kobe doesn't have anywhere close to the #2 resume in NBA history. Yet Bowen considers him #2 because, I guess, he found him really tough to guard. And we all know Bowen's guarded everybody in NBA history. And this is essentially the genius behind the workings of an athlete's brain. "He very tough to guard and competitive, so naturally, he's 2nd GOAT". No knowledge of anything else required.

His 5 rings, fmvps, mvp, all defense first team, all nba his whole prime, 18x all star, too many years of being the best player in the leaugue has nothing to do with it? Just "very tough to guard and competitive"? Just because lebron has more media awards and is a stat based player with 6 finals losses with superteams, doesn't make you more right.

[ArbitraryWater]

OP, add these to your files.

Or some kind of playlist.

These bad boy quotes are rare amongst players who seem like they aren't dumb.

[MrFonzworth]

OP, add these to your files.

Or some kind of playlist.

These bad boy quotes are rare amongst players who seem like they aren't dumb.

Well we all know YOU'RE not outscoring Bowen in ANY kind of intellectual test anytime soon

[Haymaker]

Why would he say Kobe is number 2? He played with Tim Duncan for years. Does he have a beef with him?

Clearly Duncan is a tier below Kobe. He sacrificed more of his own game in order to win. Kobe was a ball hog and people loves ball hogs.

[Bankaii]

I dont have kobe as 2nd goat but i wouldn't think its idiotic to for anyone to say otherwise. Alot of players whos played against both say kobe was better. Whats idiotic is for some stat geek whos never played the game on that level telling others who did and who played against both that they're idiotic.
It’s idiotic. Kobe has no argument over Kareem, not at all. He’s generally ranked at the bottom end of top 10 lists for a reason. If you think Kobe is the second greatest player of all time you’re an idiot.

You’re a terrible troll. Calling someone a stat geek when I’m 100% sure you couldn’t make a high school team right now. I’d dust your ass along with anyone else on this shit forum.


You still think you can beat Isaiah Thomas 1vs1? Maybe its not Bruce Bowen's credibility that needs to be assessed...
Why are you so obsessed with me? Do you want a kiss?

[Soundwave]

Spots 2-6 or so are pretty interchangeable.

You can have Shaq at 2, Kareem at 2, LeBron at 2, Wilt at 2, Magic at 2, Russell at 2 depending on what your criteria is.

I don't have Kobe at 2, but I think Kobe has a case for being the 2nd most skilled player ever. Foot work, shooting form, 1-on-1 moves, fadeaway shot, finish at the rim, etc. etc. are all impeccable.

[Turbo Slayer]

His 5 rings, fmvps, mvp, all defense first team, all nba his whole prime, 18x all star, too many years of being the best player in the leaugue has nothing to do with it? Just "very tough to guard and competitive"? Just because lebron has more media awards and is a stat based player with 6 finals losses with superteams, doesn't make you more right.


His 5 rings So we are using rings as a evaluation whose player is better? Pau Gasol has more rings than Kyrie Irving. So Gasol is a better player. So Kobe had a better supporting cast than LeBron using your logic by counting rings. Amirite?


all defense first team His All-Defensive first team are overrated. For one, DBPM and DRtg were never kind to Kobe. LeBron has passed Kobe in both categories when comparing peak and prime.


Just because lebron has more media awards and is a stat based player with 6 finals losses with superteams, doesn't make you more right. Look. in a hypothetical scenario, if Kobe had more MVPs than LeBron wouldn't you use that to your advantage? Also, his Finals losses has to be taken with context.


all nba LeBron is about to have more All-NBA selections than Kobe this year or next year despite Kobe having "all nba his whole prime". Doesn't even make sense.

[Roundball_Rock]

What case does Magic have for #2? He was a one way player, did not have longevity, and his peak and prime dominance doesn't compare to the players consistently ahead of him (so MJ, KAJ, Wilt, LeBron). His own peer Bird was more dominant in the same era. I have Magic 8th but I see him 3rd or 4th sometimes while Bird oddly is 7th or 8th on the same people's lists.

[LAL]

Spots 2-6 or so are pretty interchangeable.

You can have Shaq at 2, Kareem at 2, LeBron at 2, Wilt at 2, Magic at 2, Russell at 2 depending on what your criteria is.

I don't have Kobe at 2, but I think Kobe has a case for being the 2nd most skilled player ever. Foot work, shooting form, 1-on-1 moves, fadeaway shot, finish at the rim, etc. etc. are all impeccable.

He has the stats and rings too. Not as many media awards ofcourse but was considerd best player and winner as long as anyone on the list.

[dazzer87]

https://imgur.com/MQXiTL2

[Soundwave]

What case does Magic have for #2? He was a one way player, did not have longevity, and his peak and prime dominance doesn't compare to the players consistently ahead of him (so MJ, KAJ, Wilt, LeBron). His own peer Bird was more dominant in the same era. I have Magic 8th but I see him 3rd or 4th sometimes while Bird oddly is 7th or 8th on the same people's lists.

People like Magic's personality and they overrated the ability to fill a box score.

[34-24 Footwork]

Benkali raging as usual. Why are you so mad at the players' opinions? Relax little fella. You and all of the nerds are safe. Your opinions are just as valid. Quit being insecure.

[Roundball_Rock]

People like Magic's personality and they overrated the ability to fill a box score.

Yeah. Magic and Hakeem probably are the two players near the top who have risen the most since retirement, albeit for different reasons. If you said Hakeem>Kareem or Hakeem>Wilt you would be considered crazy in 2000 or 2010.

[dbugz]

This is a common knowledge

Kobe > lebron

[LAL]

So we are using rings as a evaluation whose player is better? Pau Gasol has more rings than Kyrie Irving. So Gasol is a better player. So Kobe had a better supporting cast than LeBron using your logic by counting rings. Amirite?

His All-Defensive first team are overrated. For one, DBPM and DRtg were never kind to Kobe. LeBron has passed Kobe in both categories when comparing peak and prime.

Look. in a hypothetical scenario, if Kobe had more MVPs than LeBron wouldn't you use that to your advantage? Also, his Finals losses has to be taken with context.

LeBron is about to have more All-NBA selections than Kobe this year or next year despite Kobe having "all nba his whole prime". Doesn't even make sense.

What happened to your attitude, i'm about to smack your ass like your daddy, foh. I used some of his awards like all nba team and stuff to show he has awards TOO. Only decent question was the mvp thing.. You can use those mvps to your advantage when talking about media darling lebron all you want, but you can't say kobe is the lesser player for having less mvp's than Steve Nash as he was great enough to view him as 6x mvp caliber player in MY eyes, that's what's important to me. Having the best regular season record is not as important as him crushing teams in the WC playoffs and winning titles without superteams. His play was legendary and had great stats, again not doncic/westbrook stats, and had awards TOO is my point.

[Lebron23]

Lebron have more individual awards than Kobe. And also better stats in the regular season, playoffs and finals by the time his career is over. LeBron likely finish with more championship than Kobe

[Soundwave]

Lebron have more individual awards than Kobe. And also better stats in the regular season, playoffs and finals by the time his career is over. LeBron likely finish with more championship than Kobe

It took LeBron like 18 seasons or something to get the 3 he has now? 3 more when he's turning 36 isn't a given at all.

[LAL]

Lebron have more individual awards than Kobe. And also better stats in the regular season, playoffs and finals by the time his career is over. LeBron likely finish with more championship than Kobe

He never has bad games on paper in his lebron system. Getting humiliated and shutdown? Still good stats. Stat based player, we already know,
have you seen russel westbrook's stats? He will "likely" finish with as much championships as lebron did in 18 seasons.

[Lebron23]

Kobe also missed the playoffs in 2005 while being coached by Rudy Tomjanovich. And from 2006 to 2007 they were barely a playoffs team despite being coached by Phil Jackson. Only in his 4th year as the Lakers best player since Shaq that his team had a winning record, and they acquired Pau Gasol during that time.

[Turbo Slayer]

10 year prime (Per 100/Advanced)

LeBron James (2008-09 to 2017-18)

37.5 points, 10.4 assists, and 10.5 TRB

2P% .575
3P% .354
FG% .526

ORtg: 119 DRtg: 103

He did all this on less attempts (26 FGA)

Kobe Bryant (2003-04 to 2012-13)

38 points, 6.9 assists, and 7.5 assists

2P% .486
3P% .337
FG% .452

ORtg: 112 DRtg: 106

He did this on more atttempts (29 FGA)

Advanced!

LeBron James

PER- 29.1 (led league for 5 years out of 10)

TS% .609

OWS- 112.1 (led league 4 years out of 10)

DWS- 42.7

WS- 154.8 (led league 5 years out of 10)

WS/48- .263 (led league 5 years out of 10)

OBPM- 7.7 (led league 4 years out of 10)

DBPM- 2 (led league 1 time)

BPM- 9.7 (led league 5 years out of 10)

VORP- 83.4 (led league 6 years out of 10)

Kobe Bryant

PER- 24.2 (never led the league for 10 years prime)

TS% .559

OWS- 80.1 (never led league in prime)

DWS- 30.4 (never led the league in prime)

WS- 110.5 (never led the league in prime)

WS/48- .186 (never led the league in prime)

OBPM- 5.4 (never led the league in prime)

DBPM- 0.0 (never led the league in prime)

BPM- 5.4 (never led the league in prime)

VORP- 53 (never led the league in prime)

Conclusion: What can we conclude from this? LeBron's prime is superior to Kobe's prime using per 100 possessions and advanced stats.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Kobe gets ranked top 10 because he died and you have ungrateful retards coming out of the woodwork

Give an inch, they try to take a mile

Kobe isn't top 10, he won't be top 15 in 5 years

[LAL]

Kobe also missed the playoffs in 2005 while being coached by Rudy Tomjanovich. And from 2006 to 2007 they were barely a playoffs team despite being coached by Phil Jackson. Only in his 4th year as the Lakers best player since Shaq that his team had a winning record, and they acquired Pau Gasol during that time.

"barely" a playoff team out west with smush and kwame.. Imagine a bronsexual saying "championship or bust" lol.

[Lebron23]

If you are still using his 3 other rings. He was a sidekick and shaq carried that team in the playoffs. Even 1991-93 Pippen put up better stats than Kobe in the nba finals. If No Shaq during that time period I doubt Kobe was capable of leading the Lakers in the playoffs.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe has no argument over Lebron, except in ring count and scoring skill.

Don't think that outweighs Lebron and his (F)MVPs. Or his level of impact. Nor his overall numbers. Bron is the better all-around player and does more with less.

His longevity might usurp Kareem's too.

[Soundwave]

Kobe gets ranked top 10 because he died and you have ungrateful retards coming out of the woodwork

Give an inch, they try to take a mile

Kobe isn't top 10, he won't be top 15 in 5 years

In terms of talent/skill/ability there isn't 9 players in NBA history better than him.

[AlternativeAcc.]

In terms of talent/skill/ability there isn't 9 players in NBA history better than him.

There actually are, that's why Kobe routinely gets ranked from 9-15

He only gets rated higher by casual fans and emotional players who knew him and are biased by that. Humans are inherently selfish so they will rate a player they played with or against higher because it boosts their status somehow. I think the term is psychological egoism

[Soundwave]

Kobe has no argument over Lebron, except in ring count and scoring skill.

Don't think that outweighs Lebron and his (F)MVPs. Or his level of impact. Nor his overall numbers. Bron is the better all-around player and does more with less.

His longevity might usurp Kareem's too.

Longevity OK, but I think Kobe actually has a fair shot of winning more titles with Wade + Bosh and could win another with Love + Kyrie.

[Soundwave]

There actually are, that's why Kobe routinely gets ranked from 9-15

He only gets rated higher by casual fans and emotional players who knew him and are biased by that. Humans are inherently selfish so they will rate a player they played with or against higher because it boosts their status somehow. I think the term is psychological egoism

Skill wise there's like 3 or 4 guys with the ability to score 81 points in an NBA game, and sorry LeBron is not one of them.

[Lebron23]

"barely" a playoff team out west with smush and kwame.. Imagine a bronsexual saying "championship or bust" lol.

He played with Lamar Odom. LeBron won 60 and 66 games with Mo Williams as his 2nd scoring option. Odom is better than Maurice Williams.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Longevity OK, but I think Kobe actually has a fair shot of winning more titles with Wade + Bosh and could win another with Love + Kyrie.

Only if the league is as weak as it was in 09. 10. Otherwise there's no chance

We saw what happened when the league got strong in 2011 on, kobe fell off the map despite having stacked teams

Got swept and humiliated every single year at younger ages than current lebron

Those 09 10 titles are weak as ****. And he played like shit in game 7. Those rings are garbage and meaningless

[Soundwave]

Only if the league is as weak as it was in 09. 10. Otherwise there's no chance

We saw what happened when the league got strong in 2011 on, kobe fell off the map despite having stacked teams

Got swept and humiliated every single year and younger at than current lebron

Those 09 10 titles are weak as ****. And he played like shit in game 7. Those rings are garbage and meaningless

How is the league weak in 09, 10. The Spurs, Celtics were still around, not Kobe's fault LeBron couldn't beat a Dwight Howard team. Who was Dwight Howard's awesome no.2 option? Turkoglu?

2 rings are not meaningless.

[Lebron23]

Skill wise there's like 3 or 4 guys with the ability to score 81 points in an NBA game, and sorry LeBron is not one of them.

Who cares about scoring 81 points against a crappy Raptors team??? LeBron scoring 51 points against the Warriors in the 2018 nba finals was more impressive.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Skill wise there's like 3 or 4 guys with the ability to score 81 points in an NBA game, and sorry LeBron is not one of them.

Meaningless arbitrary standard, and LeBron is definitely capable of it

Keep holding on to that regular season game on a lottery squad

The pinnacle of kobes career came in the regular season

[AlternativeAcc.]

How is the league weak in 09, 10. The Spurs, Celtics were still around, not Kobe's fault LeBron couldn't beat a Dwight Howard team. Who was Dwight Howard's awesome no.2 option? Turkoglu?

2 rings are not meaningless.
23 year old Bron with MO Williams as 2nd option

Meanwhile Kobe is playing with peak Pau and Odom and elite role players and GOAT coach.

Lmao. What happened after 2010. Why did Kobe get humiliated every single year?

[Soundwave]

Meaningless arbitrary standard, and LeBron is definitely capable of it

Keep holding on to that regular season game on a lottery squad

The pinnacle of kobes career came in the regular season

He's not capable of it at all.

Kobe is a more skilled offensive player hands down, there's maybe only two better scorers in the history of the NBA -- Jordan and Wilt and that's about it.

That is an extremely high end player even if you don't want to give him any credit.

Kobe could hit 50, 60 points with an ease that was scary at times.

[LAL]

Kobe has no argument over Lebron, except in ring count and scoring skill.

Don't think that outweighs Lebron and his (F)MVPs. Or his level of impact. Nor his overall numbers. Bron is the better all-around player and does more with less.

His longevity might usurp Kareem's too.

Explain impact and 6 finals losses in a eastern conference with hand picked superteams? All around stats does not mean all around player, lebron has to playmake because he can't be that off ball player, while kobe could do both, it's not just scoring skill, it's better skill at everything basketball, while being flexible enough to adjust to whoever and believing in a real system. 24 50+ win teams out west and 5 rings in a 13 year prime is more impactful to me. Lebron had less help again? He has more media awards sure.

[Lebron23]

Explain impact and 6 finals losses in a eastern conference with hand picked superteams? All around stats does not mean all around player, lebron has to playmake because he can't be that off ball player, while kobe could do both, it's not just scoring skill, it's better skill at everything basketball, while being flexible enough to adjust to whoever and believing in a real system. 24 50+ win teams out west and 5 rings in a 13 year prime is more impactful to me. Lebron had less help again? He has more media awards sure.

Kobe never played against a team that was as stacked and talented as the 2012 okc thunder, 2013-2014 spurs, 2015-2018 Warriors in the nba finals.

[tpols]

Bron is the better all-around player and does more with less.

you sure about that? '06 kobe would like to have a word.

And even if he does do more with less overall, he does less with more.

Kobe and wade would wreck the league. Pau and Bran wouldnt win a damn thing.

[AlternativeAcc.]

He's not capable of it at all.

Kobe is a more skilled offensive player hands down, there's maybe only two better scorers in the history of the NBA -- Jordan and Wilt and that's about it.

That is an extremely high end player even if you don't want to give him any credit.

Kobe could hit 50, 60 points with an ease that was scary at times.

Yet LeBrons scoring numbers in the playoffs and finals are far superior

Not to mention his playmaking makes Kobe look like a middle schooler in comparison

Nice regular season glory though, curry and kobe fans love to brag about meaningless games in January

[Soundwave]

Yet LeBrons scoring numbers in the playoffs and finals are far superior

Not to mention his playmaking makes Kobe look like a middle schooler in comparison

Nice regular season glory though, curry and kobe fans love to brag about meaningless games in January

I'm talking about ability, Kobe Bryant is probably the 2nd most gifted scorer I've seen in the NBA since 1990 or so.

You always got a sense he could go off for like 40 or 50 in a half if he really got in a groove, there's not many NBA players you look at and feel that same type of dread.

That is not some small feat.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I'm talking about ability, Kobe Bryant is probably the 2nd most gifted scorer I've seen in the NBA since 1990 or so.

You always got a sense he could go off for like 40 or 50 in a half if he really got in a groove, there's not many NBA players you look at and feel that same type of dread.

I know, you're talking about mythical stuff and I'm talking about facts and results.

Lebron is a 29ppg on 50% playoff performer for his career. Kobe is at 25ppg on 44%.

Not even in the same league, and the playmaking edge just obliterates kobes life..

[Turbo Slayer]

10 year prime (Per 100/Advanced)

LeBron James (2008-09 to 2017-18)

37.5 points, 10.4 assists, and 10.5 TRB

2P% .575
3P% .354
FG% .526

ORtg: 119 DRtg: 103

He did all this on less attempts (26 FGA)

Kobe Bryant (2003-04 to 2012-13)

38 points, 6.9 assists, and 7.5 assists

2P% .486
3P% .337
FG% .452

ORtg: 112 DRtg: 106

He did this on more atttempts (29 FGA)

Advanced!

LeBron James

PER- 29.1 (led league for 5 years out of 10)

TS% .609

OWS- 112.1 (led league 4 years out of 10)

DWS- 42.7

WS- 154.8 (led league 5 years out of 10)

WS/48- .263 (led league 5 years out of 10)

OBPM- 7.7 (led league 4 years out of 10)

DBPM- 2 (led league 1 time)

BPM- 9.7 (led league 5 years out of 10)

VORP- 83.4 (led league 6 years out of 10)

Kobe Bryant

PER- 24.2 (never led the league for 10 years prime)

TS% .559

OWS- 80.1 (never led league in prime)

DWS- 30.4 (never led the league in prime)

WS- 110.5 (never led the league in prime)

WS/48- .186 (never led the league in prime)

OBPM- 5.4 (never led the league in prime)

DBPM- 0.0 (never led the league in prime)

BPM- 5.4 (never led the league in prime)

VORP- 53 (never led the league in prime)

Conclusion: What can we conclude from this? LeBron's prime is superior to Kobe's prime using per 100 possessions and advanced stats.

5 YEAR PRIME (Per 100/Advanced)

LeBron James (2008-09 to 2012-13)

38.6 points, 10.1 assists, and 10.6 TRB

2P% .560
3P% .351
FG% .518

ORtg: 120 DRtg: 100

Kobe Bryant (2005-06 to 2009-10)

39.2 points, 6.6 assists, and 7.3 assists

2P% .490
3P% .348
FG% .459

ORtg: 114 DRtg: 106

ADVANCED!

LeBron James

PER- 30.4 (led the league every year)
TS% .606

OWS- 61.9 (led the league 4 years out of 5)

DWS- 26.1

WS- 88 (led the league every year)

WS/48- .296 (led the league every year)

OBPM- 8.5 (led the league 4 years out of 5)

DBPM- 2.7 (led league 1 time)

BPM- 11.1 (led the league every year)

VORP- 47.4 (led the league every year)

Kobe Bryant

PER- 25 (never led league)

TS% .565

OWS- 45.9 (never led league)

DWS- 18.3 (never led league)

WS- 64.3 (never led league)

WS/48- .200 (never led league)

OBPM- 5.8 (never led league)

DBPM- 0.2 (never led league)

BPM- 5.9 (never led league)

VORP- 30.6 (never led league)

Conclusion: LeBron beats Kobe here too.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kobe is a more skilled offensive player hands down, there's maybe only two better scorers in the history of the NBA -- Jordan and Wilt and that's about it.

That is an extremely high end player even if you don't want to give him any credit.

Kobe could hit 50, 60 points with an ease that was scary at times.

His big scoring year came when scoring went up sharply for every perimeter player.

2004 top 5 scorers: T Mac 28, Peja 24, KG 24, Kobe 24, Pierce 23
2006 top 5 scorers: Kobe 35, Iverson 33, LeBron 31, Arenas 29, Wade 27

It is obvious what happened here after the hand-checking rules changed and defenses struggled to adjust. Harden scoring 36 when the next player was at 28, Jordan 37 when Wilkins was at 29, or Kareem 35 when the next player was at 28 were more impressive. Wilt goes without saying.

[Soundwave]

I know, you're talking about mythical stuff and I'm talking about facts and results.

Lebron is a 29ppg on 50% playoff performer for his career. Kobe is at 25ppg on 44%.

Not even in the same league, and the playmaking edge just obliterates kobes life..

Kobe's numbers are skewed by having Shaq as the no.1 option for his first few playoff runs and not being able to be deployed like a normal no.1 scoring option would be.

From 2001 onwards where he got a fair share of offensive touches, Kobe's playoff PPG is more like 29 ppg.

[LAL]

His big scoring year came when scoring went up sharply for every perimeter player.

2004 top 5 scorers: T Mac 28, Peja 24, KG 24, Kobe 24, Pierce 23
2006 top 5 scorers: Kobe 35, Iverson 33, LeBron 31, Arenas 29, Wade 27

It is obvious what happened here after the hand-checking rules changed and defenses struggled to adjust. Harden scoring 36 when the next player was at 28, Jordan 37 when Wilkins was at 29, or Kareem 35 when the next player was at 28 were more impressive. Wilt goes without saying.

Jezus this guy, him averaging 35 and 32 has nothing to do with rule changes chump, high iq players adjust their game the minute they feel they have a squad.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kobe's numbers are skewed by having Shaq as the no.1 option for his first few playoff runs and not being able to be deployed like a normal no.1 scoring option would be.

:coleman:

So Kobe is the second or third best scorer of all-time...but was not the first option on his team well into the 2000's?

[AlternativeAcc.]

:coleman:

So Kobe is the second or third best scorer of all-time...but was not the first option on his team well into the 2000's?
Lmao and he's lying

Kobe took more shots in a single playoff run with Shaq than he ever did without

Kobe fans are retarded on every level, all the time.

[Soundwave]

:coleman:

So Kobe is the second or third best scorer of all-time...but was not the first option on his team well into the 2000's?

LeBron wouldn't be the prime option over that version of Shaq either, that version of Shaq is probably the 2nd most dominant player to ever play the game period.

Kobe is a better scorer and defender than LeBron I think, LeBron is a better facilitator and rebounder while providing reasonably high scoring. It's just which of the two you prefer, I don't think the gap between these two is actually that large.

If the 2008 or 2010 Lakers played any one of LeBron's championship teams, I think the Lakers win.

[AlternativeAcc.]

LeBron wouldn't be the prime option over that version of Shaq either, that version of Shaq is probably the 2nd most dominant player to ever play the game period.

Kobe is a better scorer and defender than LeBron I think, LeBron is a better facilitator and rebounder while providing reasonably high scoring. It's just which of the two you prefer, I don't think the gap between these two is actually that large.

If the 2008 or 2010 Lakers played any one of LeBron's championship teams, I think the Lakers win.

Reasonably high scoring

Reasonably higher than Kobe on much better efficiency. And the gap is even bigger in the finals

:roll:

Oh and how about head to head

:roll:

[Soundwave]

Reasonably high scoring

Reasonably higher than Kobe on much better efficiency. And the gap is even bigger in the finals

:roll:

Oh and how about head to head

:roll:

Efficiency if you're going to do it while being afraid to take contested shots is not something that impresses me. That means you chicken out or pass up on tough shots, great players should be willing to take those.

[Rysio]

Lol at LeBron doing more with less you give Kobe a 2nd option who was able to play on the same level as the opposite teams 2nd option and he won 2 rings.

[Turbo Slayer]

AVERAGE NET RATING

LeBron- 11.76

Kobe- 7.43

This shows that LeBron impacted the game more than Kobe.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Efficiency if you're going to do it while being afraid to take contested shots is not something that impresses me. That means you chicken out or pass up on tough shots, great players should be willing to take those.

What impresses you is irrelevant

You're the guy that's impressed by regular season games in January vs. Lottery squads

You're impressed by the idea of someone scoring a lot, just the idea of someone potentially being able to score a lot.

Lebron has by far more 40+ scoring games in the playoffs and finals than Kobe

But that doesn't impress you, because you're a complete nut case

[tpols]

Lol at LeBron doing more with less you give Kobe a 2nd option who was able to play on the same level as the opposite teams 2nd option and he won 2 rings.

thats what im saying... kobe needed pau to go back to back. lebron needed wade and bosh.

Yea hes a better one man army player slightly... but thats BAD because he cant mesh with great talent to make dynasties. Kobe could.

[tommy9050]

I disagree with Bruce Bowen's take, but the dude was certainly no bum. Bowen along with Kobe were the two best wing defenders of that era.

[Rysio]

thats what im saying... kobe needed pau to go back to back. lebron needed wade and bosh.

Yea hes a better one man army player slightly... but thats BAD because he cant mesh with great talent to make dynasties. Kobe could.

Yea LeBron is probably better at carrying shit teams into playoffs but Kobe is the better on a championship team.

[tommy9050]

All of the Kobe fans are going to say stats don't matter, but that is significant. Another statistic that demonstrates your point is box plus minus. Lebron is second to MJ and Kobe is 29th!. Damian Lillard is one spot ahead of Kobe. Yikes!

[ImKobe]

Why does Bowen choose Kobe and no Lebron? He's played against both guys?

Bowen respects winners. Kobe sent him home 3x. He sonned Lebron in the Finals.

[Roundball_Rock]

LeBron wouldn't be the prime option over that version of Shaq either

No one is selling LeBron as a better scorer than Wilt or Kareem, as we often hear with Kobe.

Shaq versus LeBron is speculation. It is hard to say since they play different styles. Shaq could be the leading scorer with LeBron being the more important player potentially.


Kobe is a better scorer and defender than LeBron I think, LeBron is a better facilitator and rebounder while providing reasonably high scoring. It's just which of the two you prefer, I don't think the gap between these two is actually that large.

Kobe simply did not impact games as much as LeBron. Kobe=Duncan. I don't see anybody saying Duncan is 2nd or 3rd all-time with the same resume.


Reasonably high scoring

Career: Kobe 25.0 PPG on 19.5 shots per game, LeBron 27.1 on 19.6 shots per game.

Let's narrow it to 2001-2013 for Kobe and 2006 to 2018 for LeBron, since Kobe was a role player early in his career and not a superstar until 2001.

Kobe (2001-2013): 28.1 PPG on 21.6 shots per game
LeBron (2006-2018): 27.7 PPG on 19.5 shots per game

Reputation does not always match reality, especially with Kobe.

[LAL]

Wow lebron has better fg% than kobe? that's amazing, better scorer for sure. Nerd. Like lebron could play in a triangle and accept lesser stats, ball and off ball movement. His whole dribbling the air out the ball would be eliminated. Bye bye phil jackson.

[Whoah10115]

Reason #234343456 why there's no opinion more worthless than an athlete's when it comes to judging someone in totality. A particular aspect of the game? Sure. Their entire body of work and where they stand in history compared to somebody else? They don't have a ****ing clue. Their opinion is based on nothing but highly selective memory and whatever tingles they are feeling for that particular player at the moment. Most of them change their opinion every 2 days. What they think is worthless.

Regardless of what Bowen thinks about Kobe/LeBron, everybody can agree Kobe doesn't have anywhere close to the #2 resume in NBA history. Yet Bowen considers him #2 because, I guess, he found him really tough to guard. And we all know Bowen's guarded everybody in NBA history. And this is essentially the genius behind the workings of an athlete's brain. "He very tough to guard and competitive, so naturally, he's 2nd GOAT". No knowledge of anything else required.

You make some good points but, whether or not I agree, his opinion is clearly in context off all he's seen. He's using his experience because that was was his seat.

Ours is TV, internet and maybe at the games.

It's true that you don't take an athlete's -even a great one's- opinions as Gospel. But there's a problem if you see it as a rule looking for an exception.

[Vino24]

“Kobe was better at scoring”


But has scored less points on worse averages and has less game winners. But he was “better”

[AlternativeAcc.]

“Kobe was better at scoring”


But has scored less points on worse averages and has less game winne:oldlol:rs. But he was “better”

:D

All that while LeBron has been the main playmaker/passer for all of his teams

Lebron is so much better on offense than Kobe its not remotely funny. Lebron owns Kobe in every way imaginable.

[AlternativeAcc.]

You make some good points but, whether or not I agree, his opinion is clearly in context off all he's seen. He's using his experience because that was was his seat.

Ours is TV, internet and maybe at the games.

It's true that you don't take an athlete's -even a great one's- opinions as Gospel. But there's a problem if you see it as a rule looking for an exception.

He has a vested interest in saying kobe is better. His public opinion is literally worthless.

But its the only thing kobe fans have to cling onto to, so they do.

[SouBeachTalents]

You make some good points but, whether or not I agree, his opinion is clearly in context off all he's seen. He's using his experience because that was was his seat.

Ours is TV, internet and maybe at the games.

It's true that you don't take an athlete's -even a great one's- opinions as Gospel. But there's a problem if you see it as a rule looking for an exception.
To outright accept or dismiss an athletes opinion blindly is wrong, like with every other group there are athletes that have great insight and others that have terrible or unreliable opinions. Jerry West's input is something I would definitely respect, he has a track record that's second to none and he seems like a well spoken & intelligent person. Shaq is someone I would almost never take seriously, he & Barkley flip flop on their opinions all the time, and Shaq is someone who let's his personal feelings affect what he says. He'll straight up make a claim about a player just to be spiteful

[Whoah10115]

“Kobe was better at scoring”


But has scored less points on worse averages and has less game winners. But he was “better”

Stats.

Also, Roundball_Rock, you're getting on Magic a lot.

No, Magic has not risen a ton since he retired. He gets more hits against, since, than before. So just not true.

[Roundball_Rock]

When was Magic 4-5 spots ahead of Bird in the 90's or 00's?

[RRR3]

To outright accept or dismiss an athletes opinion blindly is wrong, like with every other group there are athletes that have great insight and others that have terrible or unreliable opinions. Jerry West's input is something I would definitely respect, he has a track record that's second to none and he seems like a well spoken & intelligent person. Shaq is someone I would almost never take seriously, he & Barkley flip flop on their opinions all the time, and Shaq is someone who let's his personal feelings impact his views on things. He'll straight up make a claim just to be spiteful
Yeh, I'd definitely be interested to listen to Shaq explaining the nuances of basketball and telling me his perspective on how the game should be played, as well as his personal experiences over his career, but I don't take his rankings seriously.

[ImKobe]

“Kobe was better at scoring”


But has scored less points on worse averages and has less game winners. But he was “better”

Kobe has the most game-winners all-time.

[34-24 Footwork]

What's in it for Bowen to publicly say that Kobe Bryant is above Tim Duncan?

Or for him to say that Kobe is better than Lebron, a player that he swept, forced into 6 turnovers a game, and held him to 35% from the field? 20% from 3. Lol.

It's in his best interest to hang his hat on that, but he sees Lebron as a scrub. Lol. Don't blame Bruce, though. Just his opinion.

[ImKobe]

What's in it for Bowen to publicly say that Kobe Bryant is above Tim Duncan?

Or for him to say that Kobe is better than Lebron, a player that he swept, forced into 6 turnovers a game, and held him to 35% from the field? 20% from 3. Lol.

It's in his best interest to hang his hat on that, but he sees Lebron as a scrub. Lol. Don't blame Bruce, though. Just his opinion.

Bowen lost to Kobe 3x in the Playoffs, Never even remotely shut him down for a series. The only time he faced Lebron, he shut him down completely.

[34-24 Footwork]

Yeh, I'd definitely be interested to listen to Shaq explaining the nuances of basketball and telling me his perspective on how the game should be played, as well as his personal experiences over his career, but I don't take his rankings seriously.

Translation: "I don't like Shaq's opinion, so it's invalid."


The truth is that Shaq's opinion and even Bruce Bowen's opinion is 1000x more important and valid than yours ever will be. That goes for any geek crunching numbers on basketball reference, too.

[RRR3]

Anyone who sees LeBron James as a scrub shouldn't be taken seriously. Freezing cold take.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Kobe has the most game-winners all-time.

Playoffs?

[Bronbron23]

It’s idiotic. Kobe has no argument over Kareem, not at all. He’s generally ranked at the bottom end of top 10 lists for a reason. If you think Kobe is the second greatest player of all time you’re an idiot.

You’re a terrible troll. Calling someone a stat geek when I’m 100% sure you couldn’t make a high school team right now. I’d dust your ass along with anyone else on this shit forum.


Why are you so obsessed with me? Do you want a kiss?

I agree that kobe isnt better than kareem and a few other guys but thats just my opinion. I may not agree with a player like say jimmy jackson who says kobe is better but i for damn sure wouldn't call his opinion idiotic. Dude actually played against him. His opinion is pretty valid.

And im in my thirties dude so of course im not making a high school team. I play with high school kids in runs though and they're easy af to gaurd. They're in the steph generation. All they want to do is shoot threes and not play defense. Only one problem though none of them are steph and none of them have klay and dray to pick up the slack defensively. Its the easiest shit to defend.

As far as your concerned maybe or maybe u wouldn't get at me in a game. Who knows. Im definitely not gonna argue about whos better when we'll never in a million years play against each other.

And im not sure why you put up a post from 33 23 footwork but please tell me your dumass didnt say youd beat isiah thomas in a 1 v 1:facepalm

[34-24 Footwork]

Bowen lost to Kobe 3x in the Playoffs, Never even remotely shut him down for a series. The only time he faced Lebron, he shut him down completely.

Exactly. That's the sad part about this all. Bruce Bowen just doesn't even see Lebron as a threat. You and I both hold Lebron in a higher regard than Bowen.

[34-24 Footwork]

Anyone who sees LeBron James as a scrub shouldn't be taken seriously. Freezing cold take.

It is what it is. Bowen forced him into 6 turnovers a game, 35% from the field, 20% from the 3 in a close series. Lol.

Bowen sees him differently than you do.

[RRR3]

I guess Tayshaun Prince sees Kobe as a scrub by your retarded "logic".

[Axe]

So in a sort of way, kobe is somewhat underrated?

[LAL]

So in a sort of way, kobe is somewhat underrated?

Underrated and disrespected by the media. Ofcourse players and opposing teams fanbases respected tf out of him, besides bronstans ofcourse.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Explain impact and 6 finals losses in a eastern conference with hand picked superteams? All around stats does not mean all around player, lebron has to playmake because he can't be that off ball player, while kobe could do both, it's not just scoring skill, it's better skill at everything basketball, while being flexible enough to adjust to whoever and believing in a real system. 24 50+ win teams out west and 5 rings in a 13 year prime is more impactful to me. Lebron had less help again? He has more media awards sure.

:oldlol:

Better skill at everything? Do you watch basketball or are you just here to troll?



Kobe and wade would wreck the league. Pau and Bran wouldnt win a damn thing.

Great argument man. You totally convinced me.

[RRR3]

:oldlol:

Better skill at everything? Do you watch basketball or are you just here to troll?



Great argument man. You totally convinced me.
Kobe stans never make good arguments against LeBron. All of their arguments are emotional, like they're frothing at the mouth and pounding their keyboards.

[LAL]

:oldlol:

Better skill at everything? Do you watch basketball or are you just here to troll?



Great argument man. You totally convinced me.

So now it's not only stats but you guys want to compare skills with Kobe?? I can find bench players today with more skills than lebron, seriously. LOL Kobe.

[Axe]

Underrated and disrespected by the media. Ofcourse players and opposing teams fanbases respected tf out of him, besides bronstans ofcourse.
I guess this stems from the fact that he only has 2 fmvps

[34-24 Footwork]

Damn. Bruce Bowen REALLY got yall feeling some type of way. Lol. He really has you guys going on a crusade agaisnt a dead Hall of Famer because of your insecurities.

Pathetic stuff.

[RRR3]

So now it's not only stats but you guys want to compare skills with Kobe?? I can find bench players today with more skills than lebron, seriously. LOL Kobe.
Who?

This should be worth a good laugh.

[34-24 Footwork]

Wow. If we're saying that Lebron is more skilled than Kobe, then some people just live in COMPLETELY different realities. No sense in debating with people like this as they've never played and barely watch hoops....

[LAL]

I guess this stems from the fact that he only has 2 fmvps

Perhaps, but turns out you can win 3 superteams rings in the east, many flaws and lose 6 finals to get you a number 2 spot all time.

[RRR3]

You guys have serious difficulty with reading comprehension. Kuniva laughed at Kobe having better skills at EVERYTHING than LeBron, he never said LeBron was more skilled than Kobe. But because he implied LeBron is more skilled in some areas, you went straight into meltdown mode.

[Whoah10115]

Kobe stans never make good arguments against LeBron. All of their arguments are emotional, like they're frothing at the mouth and pounding their keyboards.

To be fair, that goes both ways.

It really goes all ways, unfortunately.

[LAL]

You guys have serious difficulty with reading comprehension. Kuniva laughed at Kobe having better skills at EVERYTHING than LeBron, he never said LeBron was more skilled than Kobe. But because he implied LeBron is more skilled in some areas, you went straight into meltdown mode.

Just think of bench players with a better jumper, better handles, some type of basic footwork, some type of move.

[RRR3]

Just think of bench players with a better jumper, better handles, some type of basic footwork, some type of move.
Damn, couldn't even name a single player :yaohappy:

[34-24 Footwork]

There are quite a few basketball players more skilled than Lebron. Lebron makes up for skill with brute force and athleticism. Can't knock him for that whatsoever. He uses it to his advantage.

[LAL]

Damn, couldn't even name a single player :yaohappy:

You got me. Lebron is skilled :yaohappy:

[RRR3]

Let's see those names, fellas. And not obvious ones like Kobe, Bird, CP3, etc.

[RRR3]

You got me. Lebron is skilled :yaohappy:
I've legit never seen anyone who isn't a hater say he isn't skilled.

[Vino24]

Bruce Bowen’s perspective is flawed. When he faced LeBron it was against weak Cavs casts where they could focus on just LeBron. Meanwhile Kobe’s team was stacked and harder to figure out.

[LAL]

There are quite a few basketball players more skilled than Lebron. Lebron makes up for skill with brute force and athleticism. Can't knock him for that whatsoever. He uses it to his advantage.

Ofcourse but they won't shut up. Plus lebron really doesn't use his brute force enough, too busy hiding his ugly game. Another flaw.

[LAL]

I've legit never seen anyone who isn't a hater say he isn't skilled.

He isn't skilled.

[Bronbron23]

Who?

This should be worth a good laugh.

If your talking overall game theres very few people as skilled as bron. Assists, rebounds and defence are skills too. If your talking straight scoring skills than theres definitely alot players with more skill than bron. Bron is ridiculously strong and athletic for his size. This is his main scoring advantage.

[Axe]

Perhaps, but turns out you can win 3 superteams rings in the east, many flaws and lose 6 finals to get you a number 2 spot all time.
I guess the most prominent feat about that is him going to straight-14 postseason appearances.

[LAL]

Bruce Bowen’s perspective is flawed. When he faced LeBron it was against weak Cavs casts where they could focus on just LeBron. Meanwhile Kobe’s team was stacked and harder to figure out.

You want to hear Tony Parker's opinion maybe?

[Whoah10115]

No one is selling LeBron as a better scorer than Wilt or Kareem, as we often hear with Kobe.

Shaq versus LeBron is speculation. It is hard to say since they play different styles. Shaq could be the leading scorer with LeBron being the more important player potentially.



Kobe simply did not impact games as much as LeBron. Kobe=Duncan. I don't see anybody saying Duncan is 2nd or 3rd all-time with the same resume.



Career: Kobe 25.0 PPG on 19.5 shots per game, LeBron 27.1 on 19.6 shots per game.

Let's narrow it to 2001-2013 for Kobe and 2006 to 2018 for LeBron, since Kobe was a role player early in his career and not a superstar until 2001.

Kobe (2001-2013): 28.1 PPG on 21.6 shots per game
LeBron (2006-2018): 27.7 PPG on 19.5 shots per game

Reputation does not always match reality, especially with Kobe.


I mean, this is all irrelevant. I don't know that I think Kobe is better than LeBron.

But these stats mean nothing. They played in different conferences, to begin with. Teams were constructed differently.

None of this has any merit. Showing PPG on on shot attempts? Wes Unseld, for example, is just a player.

None of this means anything. And also, Larry Bird being 4-5 spots behind Magic has nothing to do with Magic jumping, but everything to do with people disrespecting Bird. The Arsenio Hall thinkers of the world, all embarrassments here talking about slow unathletic white guy, LeBron jumping up and people completely forgetting freaking Larry Bird within context..that's what happened.

Magic and Larry had tons of people who called them the best, until Michael took it and drove em all away. Now we have lists where Shaq and Duncan suddenly have nothing to do with Barkley's tier and they've even ended up ahead of Bird.

None of that has to do with Magic. "Immortal Six" has been quoted a lot in the past 20 years.

[Axe]

Bruce Bowen’s perspective is flawed. When he faced LeBron it was against weak Cavs casts where they could focus on just LeBron. Meanwhile Kobe’s team was stacked and harder to figure out.
Duh. The lakers also had a better, proven head coach in pj.

[RRR3]

He isn't skilled.


I've legit never seen anyone who isn't a hater say he isn't skilled.
.....

[Roundball_Rock]

I mean, this is all irrelevant. I don't know that I think Kobe is better than LeBron.

But these stats mean nothing. They played in different conferences, to begin with. Teams were constructed differently.

None of this has any merit. Showing PPG on on shot attempts?


They are relevant since the issue raised was the scoring ability of the respective players. Despite the perception, LeBron matches Kobe in scoring while doing it on less volume. Kobe was asked to score first, LeBron pass first. Their particular situations would suggest Kobe would score more...

[RRR3]

Just found out OP made this thread because he's seething about everyone laughing at the premise on realgm :oldlol:


You can find OP making such amazing claims like LeBron being similar to Rondo on his realgm account ironically called "NeutralObserver" here: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1963992

[dreamshake]

You can find OP making such amazing claims like LeBron being similar to Rondo on his realgm account ironically called "NeutralObserver" here: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1963992

LeBron is in some ways very similar to Rondo. Both dribble way too much. Both are turnover prone. Both have had issues in the locker room with teammates. On multiple finals occasions, both players were the victims of the opposing teams successful key strategy to sag off on LeBron and Rondo for an entire playoff series and watch them brick long range shots.

[LAL]

They are relevant since the issue raised was the scoring ability of the respective players. Despite the perception, LeBron matches Kobe in scoring while doing it on less volume. Kobe was asked to score first, LeBron pass first. Their particular situations would suggest Kobe would score more...

No lebron was not asked to pass first, he decided that. He knows he can't be a score first off ball type wingplayer, it's just not possible. Hogging, dribbling and only aggressive in transition. Bron system allowed him to be unagressive, despite the usage rate which allowed him to pick and choose like a player with no scoring responsibility.

[Whoah10115]

They are relevant since the issue raised was the scoring ability of the respective players. Despite the perception, LeBron matches Kobe in scoring while doing it on less volume. Kobe was asked to score first, LeBron pass first. Their particular situations would suggest Kobe would score more...

Based on my points? Different conferences, different team setups.

[brownmamba00]

They are relevant since the issue raised was the scoring ability of the respective players. Despite the perception, LeBron matches Kobe in scoring while doing it on less volume. Kobe was asked to score first, LeBron pass first. Their particular situations would suggest Kobe would score more...

Thats just a flat out lie. Jackson asked Kobe to be the facilitator in the triangle. He was a natural scorer that had to play like a swiss army knife. Guard the opposing best player, facilitate and take over in the 4th quarter. His scoring #s would've been higher if he was given the green light from the get go like lebron was given the freedom to do whatever he wanted early on in his career.

[34-24 Footwork]

LeBron is in some ways very similar to Rondo. Both dribble way too much. Both are turnover prone. Both have had issues in the locker room with teammates. On multiple finals occasions, both players were the victims of the opposing teams successful key strategy to sag off on LeBron and Rondo for an entire playoff series and watch them brick long range shots.

Pretty much. Lebron did improve on his jumper. People don't play him like Ben Simmons anymore

[Smoke117]

Even if LeBron wasn't number 2 (which he clearly isn't...Kareem is 2 or 1) it certainly wouldn't be Kobe who, if he is top 10, is just borderline.

[Roundball_Rock]

Thats just a flat out lie. Jackson asked Kobe to be the facilitator in the triangle.

Kobe the facilitator...

[Whoah10115]

Kobe the facilitator...

Whether or not one thinks he was good at it, Kobe's job was to do everything. It was like a mix of Pippen and Jordan. That's not to say he was better at either thing than either of those guys, but the point is that he was not just allowed to go out and be the scorer.

I mean, that's true.

[34-24 Footwork]

Once again, this thread exposing people who don't know or watch basketball.

[LAL]

Kobe the facilitator...

Can i show you a couple of clips of kobe playing in a dribble kickout offense in 2013 playing for D'antoni? You won't believe it. Have you watched basketball a couple of times?

[brownmamba00]

Kobe the facilitator...


...I asked (Kobe) to be the point guard to set up an offense featuring Shaquille O'neal so he had to take a different role entirely

Phil Jackson when asked to compare MJ to Kobe.

Also I never said Kobe was a facilitator first. But he was asked to facilitate early on his career. He wasn't given the green light to score as you insinuated earlier.

Keep up.

[RRR3]

Once again, this thread exposing people who don't know or watch basketball.
Are we supposed to believe you know basketball when you said Al Horford was the worst player in the league and Marcus Smart was a good scorer?

[Smoke117]

Once again, this thread exposing people who don't know or watch basketball.

lol The irony...

[Axe]

So in other words, kobe couldn't play the proper role of a point guard, after all. Makes me laugh thinking about it. 😂

[Roundball_Rock]

I said he was a scorer first, which implied he had other secondary and tertiary functions. The point is LeBron had to focus on passing first, Kobe scoring. Yet their scoring results are identical in their primes.

[RRR3]

lol The irony...
The 34-24 IQ Collection


•Al Horford is the worst player in the league
•Marcus Morris will be the first option on the Celtics and is deadly in the low post
•Marcus Smart is a talented scorer
•Kyrie Irving is a better basketball player than LeBron James
•Ben Simmons should take contested jumpers at the end of games.
•Kevin Durant didn’t join a 73 win team
•Pau Gasol first option on the Lakers from 08-11
•Jae Crawford
•The Warriors and Cavs were evenly matched in 2017
•LeBron is the least skilled superstar ever
•Isaiah Thomas is killing it on the Nuggets
•Andrew Wiggins is a more skilled scorer than LeBron James (might be misremembering this one but I don't think I am)
•LeBron is the spitting image of Ben Simmons on offense
•Teams guard Rondo and LeBron the same way

[brownmamba00]

So in other words, kobe couldn't play the proper role of a point guard, after all. Makes me laugh thinking about it. ��

He won three in a row playing primary playmaker in the triangle. That makes you laugh?

[brownmamba00]

No you said he was ASKED to score first.

Gtfoh with all that flip flopping. Bunch of 18 year olds ITT.

[Smoke117]

The 34-24 IQ Collection


•Al Horford is the worst player in the league
•Marcus Morris will be the first option on the Celtics and is deadly in the low post
•Marcus Smart is a talented scorer
•Kyrie Irving is a better basketball player than LeBron James
•Ben Simmons should take contested jumpers at the end of games.
•Kevin Durant didn’t join a 73 win team
•Pau Gasol first option on the Lakers from 08-11
•Jae Crawford
•The Warriors and Cavs were evenly matched in 2017
•LeBron is the least skilled superstar ever
•Isaiah Thomas is killing it on the Nuggets
•Andrew Wiggins is a more skilled scorer than LeBron James (might be misremembering this one but I don't think I am)
•LeBron is the spitting image of Ben Simmons on offense
•Teams guard Rondo and LeBron the same way

What makes Kobe stans so bad isn't just that they're stupid...it's that they're stupid AND DELUSIONAL.

[AlternativeAcc.]

He won three in a row playing primary playmaker in the triangle. That makes you laugh?
Pippen won 6 out of 8 as primary playmaker in triangle

Pippen > Kobe

[brownmamba00]

Pippen won 6 out of 8 as primary playmaker in triangle

Pippen > Kobe

Nobody asked pippen to take over in the 4th quarter tho

[RRR3]

What makes Kobe stans so bad isn't just that they're stupid...it's that they're stupid AND DELUSIONAL.
There are very few who have takes as bad as him though. I can't think of a single other poster who would say something like that about Al Horford. Well besides the likes of knicksman and pickernroller, but those are the literally braindead members of the board.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Nobody asked pippen to take over in the 4th quarter tho

Nobody asked Kobe to either.

[brownmamba00]

Nobody asked Kobe to either.

He did anyway :applause:

[Axe]

He won three in a row playing primary playmaker in the triangle. That makes you laugh?
But he never did like the idea of that at all, now did he?

And i bet doing it bored him to death.

[brownmamba00]

But he never did like the idea of that at all, now did he?

And i bet doing it bored him to death.

Whats your point bra. He wasn't a good playmaker because he didnt spam the high pick and roll like they do today?

Or playing five out with battier ray allen mike miller bosh spotting up from the corner like your boy did in miami?

[34-24 Footwork]

Yoooo. The RAGE is real. Lmao.

[brownmamba00]

I could care less about who's better and whatnot but just blatantly making up shit just to prop up your own guy :oldlol:

That mj doc really got in to people's head:oldlol:

[Axe]

Whats your point bra. He wasn't a good playmaker because he didnt spam the high pick and roll like they do today?

Or playing five out with battier ray allen mike miller bosh spotting up from the corner like your boy did in miami?
No, i mean having the 'role' of pippen to shaq. He never did liked the idea at all so that's why he became a ballhogger to be creative in taking his own shots, which also infuriated his own teammates esp. shaq hence their feud, as well as phil who even wrote a book about what he thought to be his last season coaching for the lakers. Also, kobe used to think that the triangle was plain boring, too.

[brownmamba00]

No, i mean having the 'role' of pippen to shaq. He never did liked the idea at all so that's why he became a ballhogger to be creative in taking his own shots, which also infuriated his own teammates esp. shaq hence their feud, as well as phil who even wrote a book about what he thought to be his last season coaching for the lakers. Also, kobe used to think that the triangle was plain boring, too.

Kobe didn't became a ball hog out of the blue. He had that tendency coming out of high school entering the league.

Which is why he was asked to facilitate first and take over in the second half.

[RRR3]

Whats your point bra. He wasn't a good playmaker because he didnt spam the high pick and roll like they do today?

Or playing five out with battier ray allen mike miller bosh spotting up from the corner like your boy did in miami?
Heat didn't play five out most of the time. Certainly not in the way it's played now. You'd be surprised how little 3s they took compared to teams now.

[Axe]

Kobe didn't became a ball hog out of the blue. He had that tendency coming out of high school entering the league.

Which is why he was asked to facilitate first and take over in the second half.
Well, regardless, that's why phil didn't choose him as the focal point of the offense until bryant had become older.

[knicksman]

Low IQs think quantity > quality thats why the best all around for them are better but high IQs know that quality > quantity. Thats why the best scorers are better than all around guys.

[knicksman]

Even if LeBron wasn't number 2 (which he clearly isn't...Kareem is 2 or 1) it certainly wouldn't be Kobe who, if he is top 10, is just borderline.

yeah we would rather have the opinion of the dumbest poster over a retired player. LOL

[Goalgoalabc]

That's right. If lebron can win 1-2 championship for Lakers. that's he still have change to take over Kobe's position. But, that's just a "chance" only

[Axe]

That's right. If lebron can win 1-2 championship for Lakers. that's he still have change to take over Kobe's position. But, that's just a "chance" only
For perennial lakers fans, 1-2 championships brought by him is nothing compared to 5 championships to the team brought by bryant, with help by other teammates of course.

[Vino24]

LeBron has 3fmvp Kobe has 1.5

[warriorfan]

alot of players who's played against both say this. Stat geeks wouldn't understand though im sure a bunch on here will anyway.

Excuse me what are their VORPS???

:lol

[SouBeachTalents]

Excuse me what are their VORPS???

:lol
Says the guy who's spammed the same PER post literally hundreds of times :oldlol:

[warriorfan]

Says the guy who's spammed the same PER post literally hundreds of times :oldlol:

And has crushed so many of the LeBron stan’s agendas into a million little pieces while doing it :roll:

[Charger]

Who is the closest player to MJ?











Kobe, so how is it that he's not 2nd or at least 3rd lol smh

[Whoah10115]

Heat didn't play five out most of the time. Certainly not in the way it's played now. You'd be surprised how little 3s they took compared to teams now.

True in regards to 3s, but they did spread the floor and they did a lot of rim-running.

And stop criticizing knicksman...who's better than him? Nobody.

[34-24 Footwork]

Still can't get over how Bowen completely disregards Lebron in the clip. Lol. Even I don't do that shit. Why do so many players evaluate the game differently than some of the weirdos on forums and in the media?

[Axe]

Who is the closest player to MJ?











Kobe, so how is it that he's not 2nd or at least 3rd lol smh
Well, casuals say that it's actually westbrook who's close to mj himself.

Oops... did i say casuals? 😂

[knicksman]

I said he was a scorer first, which implied he had other secondary and tertiary functions. The point is LeBron had to focus on passing first, Kobe scoring. Yet their scoring results are identical in their primes.

LOL this just proves youre a statnerd. And dmavs said the same thing too. That lebron is as good as kobe in scoring coz of stats. So with your posting style which is the same as dmavs, I wouldnt be surprised if this is your troll account.

[No Sir]

Kobe stans will forever stay on the outside looking in of goat debates bitter af and clutching onto quotes from Bruce Bowen and Stephen jackson and Matt barnes:yaohappy::yaohappy:

[knicksman]

Kobe stans will forever stay on the outside looking in of goat debates bitter af and clutching onto quotes from Bruce Bowen and Stephen jackson and Matt barnes:yaohappy::yaohappy:

Well if you think the opinion of the nerds holds more weight then youre definitely a genius

[SwayDizzle]

Well if you think the opinion of the nerds holds more weight then youre definitely a genius
Damn bro, why u gotta body these nerds like that?

[SwayDizzle]

If LBJ wins two rings with the LAKERS, he eclipses Kobe’s accomplishments and therefore should be ranked higher. Until that moment tho, Kobe should be higher on anyone’s all time list. I’m not sure Kobe is as high as second all time. This would be disrespecting the all time great centers that dominated the league for decades. Kobe is 5th all time in my books.

[rmt]

This quote has more to do with Bowen's career/Spurs matching up with Kobe's peak/prime while he faced Lebron at the beginning of his career. Same grain of salt when I hear Horry talk about playing with Hakeem (peak years), Shaq (peak years) vs Duncan prime but not peak (emergence of Manu/Parker & cutting Duncan's minutes).

[rmt]

And I don't think this is Bowen's GOAT list - just the SG/SF position.

[RogueBorg]

LeBron and Magic are the best passers I have ever seen going back to 1979. No one was better than Magic on the break, and no one was better at kicking it out or finding the open man than LeBron. Both Stockton and Isiah have averaged more assists per game in their best seasons than LeBron is averaging this year but that doesn't make them better passers than LeBron.

I don't think you can compare LeBron and Kobe's numbers in a vacuum like most of you do by just reading stats off Basketball Reference. On paper, LeBron has the higher numbers, but LeBron never had the same type of scoring ability as Kobe. LeBron's best move is going to the basket like a bull in a china shop and he's very good at it, great in fact, he's similar to Shaq. But his field goal percentages are inflated because he's shooting at or near the basket. Now give him credit for being able to do that but that's about all he has. He'll hit the occasional turn-around jumper but it's either shoot the three or drive to the basket.
That wasn't Kobe's game. Kobe played further from the basket so of course his numbers are going to be lower. Karl Malone shot a higher percentage and scored more points but no one thinks he was a better scorer than Kobe. Kobe was great at what he did...LeBron was great at what he did. Watching the two, I was always more impressed with Kobe's scoring ability than LeBron's.

Don't be a geek and look at stats in a vacuum.

[Whoah10115]

This quote has more to do with Bowen's career/Spurs matching up with Kobe's peak/prime while he faced Lebron at the beginning of his career. Same grain of salt when I hear Horry talk about playing with Hakeem (peak years), Shaq (peak years) vs Duncan prime but not peak (emergence of Manu/Parker & cutting Duncan's minutes).

Don't understand any of this. Horry said Hakeem is the best he played with. And? Hakeem was ridiculous. Horry played with the peak version.


And I don't think this is Bowen's GOAT list - just the SG/SF position.


Between these two posts I feel you're saying that because you want him to say it's Duncan.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kobe underachieved as a scorer relative to his ability because of ball hogging and the associated poor shot selection. LeBron isn't taking shots with multiple defenders around him to contest the shot like Kobe would do. He would pass to an open teammate in that situation.

You can't look at basketball as a skills challenge. It is a simple game and for players it comes down to their impact on the court.

[Axe]

If LBJ wins two rings with the LAKERS, he eclipses Kobe’s accomplishments and therefore should be ranked higher. Until that moment tho, Kobe should be higher on anyone’s all time list. I’m not sure Kobe is as high as second all time. This would be disrespecting the all time great centers that dominated the league for decades. Kobe is 5th all time in my books.
But what happens in case he doesn't become fmvp anymore

[warriorfan]

Kobe underachieved as a scorer relative to his ability because of ball hogging and the associated poor shot selection. LeBron isn't taking shots with multiple defenders around him to contest the shot like Kobe would do. He would pass to an open teammate in that situation.

You can't look at basketball as a skills challenge. It is a simple game and for players it comes down to their impact on the court.

LeBron played his entire career in the wide open, no hand check, freedom of movement era of the NBA.

[ImKobe]

https://i.ibb.co/WFRztBK/1-C3-F215-C-F389-431-E-B3-AC-0-D5-F486-AE37-B.jpg

[deathawaitu]

If LBJ wins two rings with the LAKERS, he eclipses Kobe’s accomplishments and therefore should be ranked higher. Until that moment tho, Kobe should be higher on anyone’s all time list. I’m not sure Kobe is as high as second all time. This would be disrespecting the all time great centers that dominated the league for decades. Kobe is 5th all time in my books.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves here, lets wait and see if Lebron can even make it to a playoff game in the West first. Two years still accomplished nothing with the Lakers

I agree that Kobe is definitely not #2 or top 5. I have around 6-8 along with Duncan and Shaq.

As of right now, Lebron is comfortably sitting outside top 10, a ring with Lakers will definitely move him in though

[Axe]

Why is laimbeer nor his teammates not there below.

[deathawaitu]

https://i.ibb.co/WFRztBK/1-C3-F215-C-F389-431-E-B3-AC-0-D5-F486-AE37-B.jpg

This is ice cold

Don't slay those Lebron stans like that

[LAL]

Kobe underachieved as a scorer relative to his ability because of ball hogging and the associated poor shot selection. LeBron isn't taking shots with multiple defenders around him to contest the shot like Kobe would do. He would pass to an open teammate in that situation.

You can't look at basketball as a skills challenge. It is a simple game and for players it comes down to their impact on the court.

18 prime seasons, barely 3 rings with 2 all stars on his team. Eastern conference.

13 prime seasons, 5 rings with 1 all star on his team. Western conference.

Who underachieved?

You can't really ball hog in a triangle offense, if someone who never watched basketball saw kobe play and then lebron dribbling the air out the ball all game long like he does in that system of his. They'll say lebron is the ballhog without blinking. Poor shot selection lol, lebron has the worst shot selection in the history of superstars, it's weird as ****, he wants to score without responsibility, thats why needed those shot creators that don't care for fg% but have the skills for it.. it's not smart basketball idiot, it's frustrating.

[Turbo Slayer]

18 prime seasons, barely 3 rings with 2 all stars on his team. Eastern conference.

13 prime seasons, 5 rings with 1 all star on his team. Western conference.

Who underachieved?

You can't really ball hog in a triangle offense, if someone who never watched basketball saw kobe play and then lebron dribbling the air out the ball all game long like he does in that system of his. They'll say lebron is the ballhog without blinking. Poor shot selection lol, lebron has the worst shot selection in the history of superstars, it's weird as ****, he wants to score without responsibility, thats why needed those shot creators that don't care for fg% but have the skills for it.. it's not smart basketball idiot, it's frustrating. Yet despite LeBron's "ball-dominance", his offenses consistently led better offenses than Kobe's.

rORTG (average)

LeBron's teams (every year)

average rORtg: +3.4

Peak rORtg: +6.4 (2013)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/

Kobe's teams (excluding 2013-14 and so forth)

average rORtg: +2.8

Peak rORtg: +5.5 (2007-08)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/

What this indicates: LeBron-led teams led consistently better offenses than Kobe-led teams. It also shows that LeBron had more impact on offense than Kobe.

[brownmamba00]

https://i.ibb.co/WFRztBK/1-C3-F215-C-F389-431-E-B3-AC-0-D5-F486-AE37-B.jpg

'Bra have you seen kobe's VORP in his title years?'

[LAL]

Yet despite LeBron's "ball-dominance", his offenses consistently led better offenses than Kobe's.

rORTG (average)

LeBron's teams (every year)

average rORtg: +3.4

Peak rORtg: +6.4 (2013)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/

Kobe's teams (excluding 2013-14 and so forth)

average rORtg: +2.8

Peak rORtg: +5.5 (2007-08)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/

What this indicates: LeBron-led teams led consistently better offenses than Kobe-led teams. It also shows that LeBron had more impact on offense than Kobe.

Did that help him during the 6 finals losses? I know the East was a bloodbath when he only had wade, bosh etc, but did those numbers help him in the finals when diaw, barea, terry, kawhi, Iggy decided to snatch his soul like he was some rookie? They media already awarded lebron for his reg season heroics and well oiled reg season teams, he got his reg season mvps for, plenty.. don't worry about that turbo.

[rmt]

Don't understand any of this. Horry said Hakeem is the best he played with. And? Hakeem was ridiculous. Horry played with the peak version.

I'm saying that Horry played with Hakeem during his MVP years and Shaq during his MVP year. He did not play with Duncan during his MVP years.



Between these two posts I feel you're saying that because you want him to say it's Duncan.

No, my post is NOT about whether Kobe is better than Lebron or whether Hakeem is better than Shaq or Duncan. It's about the opinion of Bowen and Horry being based on WHEN each played against/with each player.

[34-24 Footwork]

Someone already mentioned it, but comparing Lebron and Kobe's number in a vacuum is stupid af for a multitude of reasons. But if you watch basketball, you'll know that the Triangle offense doesn't help you rack up a shitload of assists because everyone eats in the system.

Not to mention that Kobe NEVER played the small ball, 5-out offense either.

This makes his numbers even more impressive considering the circumstances.

[RRR3]

https://i.ibb.co/WFRztBK/1-C3-F215-C-F389-431-E-B3-AC-0-D5-F486-AE37-B.jpg
Lol I like how you‘be just resorted to blatantly lying now.

[Turbo Slayer]

Did that help him during the 6 finals losses? I know the East was a bloodbath when he only had wade, bosh etc, but did those numbers help him in the finals when diaw, barea, terry, kawhi, Iggy decided to snatch his soul like he was some rookie? They media already awarded lebron for his reg season heroics and well oiled reg season teams, he got his reg season mvps for, plenty.. don't worry about that turbo.


did those numbers help him in the finals when diaw, barea, terry, kawhi, Iggy decided to snatch his soul like he was some rookie? Theres no excusing the 2011 Finals loss. All jokes there. It's fine for me. His "numbers" helped him to be up 2-1 in the 2015 Finals before LeBron's supporting cast didnt show up. In 2014 there's some fair criticism to be made there because there are some compelling arguments.

[Turbo Slayer]

LeBron's supporting outside of Kyrie and LeBron in the 2015 Finals

His supporting cast shot 108/293 (37%) in the 2015 Finals. That's terrible numbers!

[Vino24]

Someone already mentioned it, but comparing Lebron and Kobe's number in a vacuum is stupid af for a multitude of reasons. But if you watch basketball, you'll know that the Triangle offense doesn't help you rack up a shitload of assists because everyone eats in the system.

Not to mention that Kobe NEVER played the small ball, 5-out offense either.

This makes his numbers even more impressive considering the circumstances.
Kobe shot far worse despite being on a much better team

[Turbo Slayer]

LeBron's supporting outside of Kyrie and LeBron in the 2015 Finals

His supporting cast shot 108/293 (37%) in the 2015 Finals. That's terrible numbers!

LeBron's supporting cast in the 2014 Finals

His entire supporting cast shot 114/258 (44%, ironically similar to Kobe's career FG% which is 45%). The whole team outside of LeBron shot fine but it's not good either. For one, his shooters were having bad nights all day long in the Finals.

[ronniec]

No one cares what bum Bruce Bowen thinks

Then who cares what those ESPN people say?

[Whoah10115]

I'm saying that Horry played with Hakeem during his MVP years and Shaq during his MVP year. He did not play with Duncan during his MVP years



No, my post is NOT about whether Kobe is better than Lebron or whether Hakeem is better than Shaq or Duncan. It's about the opinion of Bowen and Horry being based on WHEN each played against/with each player.


Yeah but why would that be what they said? Horry played for the Lakers against a peak Tim Duncan, and he lost. So he got to see.

PLUS, he left the Lakers following that run and went to the Spurs. Tim Duncan was still at his peak then, even if his individual season and run weren't as singular as the year prior.

Horry played with and against peak Tim Duncan.

[Turbo Slayer]

LeBron played his entire career in the wide open, no hand check, freedom of movement era of the NBA. And Curry played in this era too. So if you are going to criticize LeBron, then at LEAST apply yours to every player playing right now. Yes, that includes Stephen Curry. Also Kobe played majority of his career playing after the hand check rule so yeah...

If you don't apply your standards to every player then you are being inconsistent.