Criteria for Bron being top 5 GOAT

[Dbrog]

Since this site only ever has Lebron threads, I figured I'd ask a general question. To those of you who rank Bron top 5 ever or even higher, what criteria did you use to determine this? Accomplishment-wise, he has quite a similar resume to Larry Bird (though obviously Bron got him on longevity). Lots of stats, some large awards and many peers give them praise. However, on the championship side, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Jordan, Magic, Kareem all got him in the modern era as top-dogs on their teams at various points. Then of course there's Bill Russell, the ultimate winner and Wilt the ultimate checkmy$tat$. Then you have people with some of the GOAT carry's in NBA history like Dirk or Hakeem. Again, what exactly sets Bron ahead of so many of these guys for you?

[Lebron23]

Since this site only ever has Lebron threads, I figured I'd ask a general question. To those of you who rank Bron top 5 ever or even higher, what criteria did you use to determine this? Accomplishment-wise, he has quite a similar resume to Larry Bird (though obviously Bron got him on longevity). Lots of stats, some large awards and many peers give them praise. However, on the championship side, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Jordan, Magic, Kareem all got him in the modern era as top-dogs on their teams at various points. Then of course there's Bill Russell, the ultimate winner and Wilt the ultimate checkmy$tat$. Then you have people with some of the GOAT carry's in NBA history like Dirk or Hakeem. Again, what exactly sets Bron ahead of so many of these guys for you?

4x nba mvp, 3x finals mvp, 16x all nba team. All time nba leading scorer in the playoffs. Most likely become the all time leading scorer before he retire in the nba. And please don't compare Kobe's sidekick rings to LeBron winning 3 nba titles as the number one scoring option. Same with Tim Duncan he was a sidekick in his last two nba titles. And lebron defeating a 73 wins team being down 3-1 was more impressive than 1995 Hakeem and 2011 Dirk.

[Dbrog]

Duncan was in no way a sidekick his last 2 titles...but good to know you value scoring and media awards. Thanks for the input

[Lebron23]

Duncan was in no way a sidekick his last 2 titles...but good to know you value scoring and media awards. Thanks for the input

Parker and Kawhi were the finals mvp. Duncan was very lucky he played with two of the most talented international players in nba history who had more success than him in international competitions. And back then Popovich was serious in coaching. 2014 Spurs started the trend of great 3 points shooting in the finals, but Popovich hated that kind of system.

[DoctorP]

easy.

stats, longevity, league dominance (MVPs, finals appearances)

[FultzNationRISE]

Since this site only ever has Lebron threads, I figured I'd ask a general question. To those of you who rank Bron top 5 ever or even higher, what criteria did you use to determine this? Accomplishment-wise, he has quite a similar resume to Larry Bird (though obviously Bron got him on longevity). Lots of stats, some large awards and many peers give them praise. However, on the championship side, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Jordan, Magic, Kareem all got him in the modern era as top-dogs on their teams at various points. Then of course there's Bill Russell, the ultimate winner and Wilt the ultimate checkmy$tat$. Then you have people with some of the GOAT carry's in NBA history like Dirk or Hakeem. Again, what exactly sets Bron ahead of so many of these guys for you?

The eye test. The total package.

I have been eyeing Lebron's package for years, and the evidence is decisive: He's the best of all time by a mile.

Or at least a half dozen inches.


DEAL WITH IT.

[Lebron23]

easy.

stats, longevity, league dominance (MVPs, finals appearances)

This. He'll be the all time leading scorer in nba history, already the all time leading scorer in the playoffs, and needs a couple of finals game to be the all time leading scorer in the finals.

[Dbrog]

Dr P so basically being considered the best individual player in the league for many of the years he's played? Certainly an argument to be had there considering getting to the Finals is something a lot of players never even do. Bron also one of the most ironman NBA players ever and is literally never injured

[Dbrog]

The eye test. The total package.

I have been eyeing Lebron's package for years, and the evidence is decisive: He's the best of all time by a mile.

Or at least a half dozen inches.


DEAL WITH IT.

:lol

Well...I suppose that's a different take I hadn't thought of

[Lebron23]

And an mvp candidate at age 35. Was Tim Duncan an mvp candidate at age 35???

[Roundball_Rock]

Under what criteria would he not be top 5? His longevity is exceeded only by Kareem. He had a decade long run as the best player, matched only by Kareem. His peak play is top 5. His team impact is top 5. His accolades are top 5.

[SouBeachTalents]

Since this site only ever has Lebron threads, I figured I'd ask a general question. To those of you who rank Bron top 5 ever or even higher, what criteria did you use to determine this? Accomplishment-wise, he has quite a similar resume to Larry Bird (though obviously Bron got him on longevity). Lots of stats, some large awards and many peers give them praise. However, on the championship side, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Jordan, Magic, Kareem all got him in the modern era as top-dogs on their teams at various points. Then of course there's Bill Russell, the ultimate winner and Wilt the ultimate checkmy$tat$. Then you have people with some of the GOAT carry's in NBA history like Dirk or Hakeem. Again, what exactly sets Bron ahead of so many of these guys for you?
This isn't even true. LeBron has more titles than Kobe as lead dog, and just as many as Shaq and whomever you'd consider the lesser player on the Magic/Kareem Lakers.

And at this point LeBron's resume is clearly superior to Bird's, that's not even debatable

[dankok8]

Only 3 players have a better resume than Lebron all time: Jordan, Kareem, and Russell. And stats, impact etc. all indicate that Lebron's peak is one of the greatest ever. His longevity thus far is surpassed only by Kareem but he may even surpass him. There is hardly an argument that he isn't top 5 all time. Maybe you could go with the angle of dominance and put Shaq and Wilt over him but then you'd have to dock Russell. It's hard to argue Lebron isn't top 5 ever.

[ImKobe]

Parker and Kawhi were the finals mvp. Duncan was very lucky he played with two of the most talented international players in nba history who had more success than him in international competitions. And back then Popovich was serious in coaching. 2014 Spurs started the trend of great 3 points shooting in the finals, but Popovich hated that kind of system.

Duncan was a sidekick in 2007? Are you retarded sir?

[RogueBorg]

This. He'll be the all time leading scorer in nba history, already the all time leading scorer in the playoffs, and needs a couple of finals game to be the all time leading scorer in the finals.

18-31

[dbugz]

Top 5? he isn't even on the top 10 yet.

[tpols]

i can see why spurs fans would be perplexed. the spurs waxed him in '07. for the first 6 games of '13, and for all of '14.

meanwhile guys like kobe or dirk played much better against them.

wierd..huh?

[Roundball_Rock]

Only 3 players have a better resume than Lebron all time: Jordan, Kareem, and Russell. And stats, impact etc. all indicate that Lebron's peak is one of the greatest ever. His longevity thus far is surpassed only by Kareem but he may even surpass him. There is hardly an argument that he isn't top 5 all time. Maybe you could go with the angle of dominance and put Shaq and Wilt over him but then you'd have to dock Russell. It's hard to argue Lebron isn't top 5 ever.

Yeah that is the issue. If people want to dock LeBron and they carry that logic through he still winds up top 5 under any criteria.

Winning is the big thing people bring up with him but he has more rings as the best player than anyone other than Russell, Jordan, and Duncan.

[RRR3]

i can see why spurs fans would be perplexed. the spurs waxed him in '07. for the first 6 games of '13, and for all of '14.

meanwhile guys like kobe or dirk played much better against them.

wierd..huh?
I can see why Celtics fans would be perplexed. The Celtics waxed Kobe in 08 and 10 (individually, the Lakers still won)


Meanwhile Wade and LeBron played much better against them. Weird huh?

[FultzNationRISE]

i can see why spurs fans would be perplexed. the spurs waxed him in '07. for the first 6 games of '13, and for all of '14.

meanwhile guys like kobe or dirk played much better against them.

wierd..huh?


That is weird.

Reminds me how the Pistons put a dunce cap on Kobe for an entire finals, whereas Lebron would score 25 straight on them in the 4thQ/OT of an ECF.

Strange.

[Lebron23]

Duncan was a sidekick in 2007? Are you retarded sir?

He was their best player in the regular season, and in the playoffs, but Parker was the Spurs best player in the finals.

[tpols]

I can see why Celtics fans would be perplexed. The Celtics waxed Kobe in 08 and 10 (individually, the Lakers still won)


Meanwhile Wade and LeBron played much better against them. Weird huh?

Kobe was the only one to beat the Celtics without cheating lol

(forming a super team)

Lebron got waxed by them so bad he had to fake an elbow injury and hop to Miami.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Lakers got Pau Gasol in a lopsided shady trade. It is forgotten now because of what Marc Gasol became but at the time it was considered a terrible trade and the Grizzlies didn't put Gasol out on the market for anyone else. Remember Pop's reaction to the news? :lol

[Vino24]

Kobe was the only one to beat the Celtics without cheating lol

(forming a super team)

Lebron got waxed by them so bad he had to fake an elbow injury and hop to Miami.

Kobe had like 20ft’s in one game lol

[RRR3]

Kobe was the only one to beat the Celtics without cheating lol

(forming a super team)

Lebron got waxed by them so bad he had to fake an elbow injury and hop to Miami.
LeBron took the 08 Celtics to the final minutes of game 7. Kobe got waxed in 6.

Both he and Wade put up better numbers against the 10 Celtics than Kobe did.



Whoops.

[LAL]

LeBron took the 08 Celtics to the final minutes of game 7. Kobe got waxed in 6.

Both he and Wade put up better numbers against the 10 Celtics than Kobe did.



Whoops.

Again bragging about a losing series and stats

[RRR3]

^LeBron and Wade definitely should have beat the big 4 Celtics with Big Z/Mo Williams and Michael Beasley, respectively, as their second options, I agree.

[Lebron23]

Again bragging about a losing series and stats

Because kobe had better teams and coach than Bron and wade in 2010.

[FultzNationRISE]

Again bragging about a losing series and stats

Listen buddy.

You were responding to the biggest fakkit on the board, so Im gonna let that slide.

But otherwise, you do NOT talk that mess about LeHandsome.

Not on this board. Not on my watch.

[LAL]

^LeBron and Wade definitely should have beat the big 4 Celtics with Big Z/Mo Williams and Michael Beasley, respectively, as their second options, I agree.


Because kobe had better teams and coach than Bron and wade in 2010.
So he ran to Wade, who was great against the celtics, and Chris Bosh. (Aka Pau Gasol) to beat the washed up celtics version just to get humiliated by jj barea and jason terry.

[Dbrog]

Only 3 players have a better resume than Lebron all time: Jordan, Kareem, and Russell. And stats, impact etc. all indicate that Lebron's peak is one of the greatest ever. His longevity thus far is surpassed only by Kareem but he may even surpass him. There is hardly an argument that he isn't top 5 all time. Maybe you could go with the angle of dominance and put Shaq and Wilt over him but then you'd have to dock Russell. It's hard to argue Lebron isn't top 5 ever.

When people think peaks/impact, I think people put Jordan, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Dirk, and Rick Barry at the top. All these dudes just beasted at least 1 championship without having much help in comparison to competition. Chips there are definitely 5 people with more and even for someone like Kobe who has some rings where he wasn't number 1, he definitely has 3 where he could be argued as #1 and 1 that could be argued as 1b. Longevity is interesting too because people forget Shaq and Duncan played in the league for 18 years and Kobe 19 years. People always bring up Kareem's longevity but he too played 19 years. Stats would definitely lead to bron being top 5, probably top 2 or 3 tbh.

I just think it's interesting that many of these things are commonly not talked about or just strait wrong on ("kareem has elite longevity" but then leaving the other guys off)

[RRR3]

So he ran to Wade, who was great against the celtics, and Chris Bosh. (Aka Pau Gasol) to beat the washed up celtics version just to get humiliated by jj barea and jason terry.
Not sure what that has to do with the year in question. Seems like you're having another one of your patented meltdowns.

[RRR3]

When people think peaks/impact, I think people put Jordan, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Dirk, and Rick Barry at the top. All these dudes just beasted at least 1 championship without having much help in comparison to competition. Chips there are definitely 5 people with more and even for someone like Kobe who has some rings where he wasn't number 1, he definitely has 3 where he could be argued as #1 and 1 that could be argued as 1b. Longevity is interesting too because people forget Shaq and Duncan played in the league for 18 years and Kobe 19 years. People always bring up Kareem's longevity but he too played 19 years. Stats would definitely lead to bron being top 5, probably top 2 or 3 tbh.

I just think it's interesting that many of these things are commonly not talked about or just strait wrong on ("kareem has elite longevity" but then leaving the other guys off)
I'm not saying Rick Barry didn't have an insane carry job in 1975, because he did, but no one talks about him now :lol

[Dbrog]

I'm not saying Rick Barry didn't have an insane carry job in 1975, because he did, but no one talks about him now :lol

Fair haha. I guess you could put Walton in there too, though that Portland team was pretty good

[Lebron23]

So he ran to Wade, who was great against the celtics, and Chris Bosh. (Aka Pau Gasol) to beat the washed up celtics version just to get humiliated by jj barea and jason terry.

2011 dallas mavericks also humiliated your Lakers in the 2011 nba playoffs.

[DoctorP]

Dr P so basically being considered the best individual player in the league for many of the years he's played? Certainly an argument to be had there considering getting to the Finals is something a lot of players never even do. Bron also one of the most ironman NBA players ever and is literally never injured

yeah brans the best after the 90s

[LAL]

2011 dallas mavericks also humiliated your Lakers in the 2011 nba playoffs.

Yes after being 5/7 and playing on one leg, it's cool to me. Man you guys, 18 years 3 lucky rings, no wonder your arguments suck, 2008, celtics beat kobe in finals.. lebron had great stats! 2009, lakers win.. lebron geat stats! 2010, lakers win.. lebron great stats! Imagine being a bronstan.

[Lebron23]

Yes after being 5/7 and playing on one leg, it's cool to me. Man you guys, 18 years 3 lucky rings, no wonder your arguments suck, 2008, celtics beat kobe in finals.. lebron had great stats! 2009, lakers win.. lebron geat stats! 2010, lakers win.. lebron great stats! Imagine being a bronstan.

Kobe was healthy in 2011. He played 82 games and averaged 25.3 in the regular season. Dallas was destined to win the nba title in 2011. Both gasol and kobe struggled in the playoffs. That dallas team were a pretty good defensive team.

[Whoah10115]

Personally I got Larry Bird considerably ahead of LeBron James.

Longevity is important, but sometimes some longevity should be viewed within context of eras. And also evaluate how it got there.

Best example. As I sit here bored out of my mind and clicking on the site every 4 minutes, I started thinking about how Kyrie is still young and can still go from being a half the season all-star and become as good as he should be (say whatever you want, I don't see him anywhere near where some of you see him, due to him not being that).

If Kyrie gets his shit together and becomes a proper top 5 type player for the next 6 years, then has 2-3 years of all-star play..well, you could then throw all his accomplishments into a bag, give him the longevity thing, add up all his awards and blah-blah-blah.

But it's annoying that he spent so much of his career learning on the job, rather than having a so-called shorter career, where he comes in and gets to it a lot quicker. It's not like quarterbacks used to be, where they learn from the bench 2-4 years. Some of these guys are out there all the time, maybe playing well, maybe playing very well. But everything is a learning experience, and organizations play themselves into capped seasons by always playing for the future.

Maybe doesn't make sense to some, but it's true. Guys who come into more competitive situations and learn in those circumstances, whether off the bench or within a role, or those guys who come out of school later...somehow this just affects their all-time averages and their career totals...according to some of those evaluating.

Along with all the trolls who think the issue is that we don't know who backed up Craig Ehlo, you simply have people gawking at stats. It all sucks.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Personally I got Larry Bird considerably ahead of LeBron James.

Longevity is important, but sometimes some longevity should viewed within context of eras. And also evaluate how it got there.

Best example. As I sit here bored out of my mind and clicking on the site every 4 minutes, I started thinking about how Kyrie is still young and can still go from being a half the season all-star and become as good as he should be (say whatever you want, I don't see him anywhere near where some of you see him, due to him not being that).

If Kyrie gets his shit together and becomes a proper top 5 type player for the next 6 years, then has 2-3 years of all-star play..well, you could then throw all his accomplishments into a bag, give him the longevity thing, add up all his awards and blah-blah-blah.

But it's annoying that he spent so much of his career learning on the job, rather than having a so-called shorter career, where he comes in and gets to it a lot quicker. It's not like quarterbacks used to be, where they learn from the bench 2-4 years. Some of these guys are out there all the time, maybe playing well, maybe playing very well. But everything is a learning experience, and organizations play themselves into capped seasons by always playing for the future.

Maybe doesn't make sense to some, but it's true. Guys who come into more competitive situations and learn in those circumstances, whether off the bench or within a role, or those guys who come out of school later...somehow this just affects their all-time averages and their career totals...according to some of those evaluating.

Along with all the trolls who think the issue is that we don't know who backed up Craig Ehlo, you simply have people gawking at stats. It all sucks.
I skimmed this post but are you comparing lebron and kyrie in order to make a point

Are you making up hypotheticals of Irving becoming a top PG to compare what LeBron has achieved in the latter part of his career


Is this what we're doing now

[Axe]

Of course. How can an ultimate carrying machine like him not be in the top 5 goat list? I guess that's just the biggest burden he had to face in his whole career.

[LAL]

I skimmed this post but are you comparing lebron and kyrie in order to make a point

Are you making up hypotheticals of Irving becoming a top PG to compare what LeBron has achieved in the latter part of his career


Is this what we're doing now

This is what we're doing kid. Bird, had basically same stats as lebron, more skilled, awards and 3 rings... Oh yeah and without all the dribbling.

[AlternativeAcc.]

This is what we're doing kid. Bird, had basically same stats as lebron, more skilled, awards and 3 rings... Oh yeah and without all the dribbling.

Stop following me to every thread with the same rudimentary arguments

Come up with something substantial or **** off.. stop dick riding

[LAL]

Stop following me to every thread with the same rudimentary arguments

Come up with something substantial or **** off.. stop dick riding

But i thought we were discussing basketball? :(:cry:

[LAL]

Kobe was healthy in 2011. He played 82 games and averaged 25.3 in the regular season. Dallas was destined to win the nba title in 2011. Both gasol and kobe struggled in the playoffs. That dallas team were a pretty good defensive team.

He wasn't healthy, that's the point, didn't practice all season, his knee was shot, 33 minutes per game lowest since the 90s. Yeah they were great a great defensive team. But kobe did better on one leg against them than prime lebron, just saying.

[Lebron23]

Personally I got Larry Bird considerably ahead of LeBron James.

Longevity is important, but sometimes some longevity should be viewed within context of eras. And also evaluate how it got there.

Best example. As I sit here bored out of my mind and clicking on the site every 4 minutes, I started thinking about how Kyrie is still young and can still go from being a half the season all-star and become as good as he should be (say whatever you want, I don't see him anywhere near where some of you see him, due to him not being that).

If Kyrie gets his shit together and becomes a proper top 5 type player for the next 6 years, then has 2-3 years of all-star play..well, you could then throw all his accomplishments into a bag, give him the longevity thing, add up all his awards and blah-blah-blah.

But it's annoying that he spent so much of his career learning on the job, rather than having a so-called shorter career, where he comes in and gets to it a lot quicker. It's not like quarterbacks used to be, where they learn from the bench 2-4 years. Some of these guys are out there all the time, maybe playing well, maybe playing very well. But everything is a learning experience, and organizations play themselves into capped seasons by always playing for the future.

Maybe doesn't make sense to some, but it's true. Guys who come into more competitive situations and learn in those circumstances, whether off the bench or within a role, or those guys who come out of school later...somehow this just affects their all-time averages and their career totals...according to some of those evaluating.

Along with all the trolls who think the issue is that we don't know who backed up Craig Ehlo, you simply have people gawking at stats. It all sucks.

Lebron already surpassed larry bird when the Cavaliers beat a 73 wins team in 2016 despite being down 3-1 in the nba finals. LeBron also have more mvp, and finals mvp than bird. Better overall stats from the regular season and finals.

[Whoah10115]

Lebron already surpassed larry bird when the Cavaliers beat a 73 wins team in 2016 despite being down 3-1 in the nba finals. LeBron also have more mvp, and finals mvp than bird. Better overall stats from the regular season and finals.

Ahain, stats mean zilch.

Larry Bird is a better player than LeBron. That's my reasoning and that's what I believe.

[tpols]

LeBron is by far the fakest GOAT of all time.

Nobody could ever talk shit on guys like MJ, Bird, Russell, Magic, etc.

Lebron played with so much more, and fostered far less results. Stats be damned, look at the big picture.

[RRR3]

LeBron is by far the fakest GOAT of all time.

Nobody could ever talk shit on guys like MJ, Bird, Russell, Magic, etc.

Lebron played with so much more, and fostered far less results. Stats be damned, look at the big picture.
Meltdown :lol

[Whoah10115]

Meltdown :lol

May as well have said LeBron isn't skilled.

[RRR3]

May as well have said LeBron isn't skilled.
He will if you give him a chance. He legit said Giannis is "bad at basketball". There's a reason I say he has the IQ of a capybara.

[Run DLC]

He’s the ultimate player. He’s already the playoffs all-time leader in points. He’s going to be the first player in league history to have over 30k points, 10k assists, and 10k rebounds and combined with his individual accolades and longevity, he’s arguably the GOAT.

[Whoah10115]

He will if you give him a chance. He legit said Giannis is "bad at basketball". There's a reason I say he has the IQ of a capybara.

Respect the Capybara; it is Brazilian.

[FKAri]

I can't comment on anyone who played before the 80's. But since? Lebron's top 5 convincingly for me. And it's based on just watching and analyzing his play, which is of course subjective. So since that time period, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe and MJ are the people that are around his level. KD's within earshot. If not for the injured seasons he'd be on the doorstep. But I've talked earlier about how KD's missing that key ability to game manage which is really keeping him from ever entering this convo in earnest.

Lebron's only definitely under MJ. Gap may not be as wide as some MJ fans may think but it's a solid gap nonetheless. The rest?

He's better than Magic for me(and yes as I always say I think Bird's better than Magic too-again because of what I saw).

Bird vs Lebron's a tough one for me but I lean Lebron. Lebron's weakside help defense breaks the tie for me.

Shaq was too inconsistent mentally (and physically as well with the big toe stuff but can you really blame a guy who took that much punishment? Sure you can because he dealt it too lol)

Duncan is hard to rate due to his fortuitous circumstances. I'll leave it at that.

Hakeem was monstrous when he put it all together but it took him a while to do so. An unfortunate case of mental and physical peaks being too far apart to take full advantage.

Kobe's a player who on the surface looks better than he really is upon closer examination. Of course still a great, great player but just short of Lebron. He's a guy I wonder if he could've been better if he was more methodical and less ferocious. Or would that take away some of what makes him great? For someone so meticulous he could be so reckless on the court. It's analogous to a poker player who plays too loose but is so smart and good at bluffing that it makes him dangerous to face but would play better if he was more conservative.

As for longevity: I don't care for the totals Lebron's collecting. But there's a difference between collecting numbers in your twilight while not moving the needle and what Lebron's done with the Lakers this season. So that's def notable.

[LeCroix]

Imagine forgetting LeBron has #1 all time playoff scorer at 6,911 pts in only 13 playoffs

Next

[Whoah10115]

I can't comment on anyone who played before the 80's. But since? Lebron's top 5 convincingly for me. And it's based on just watching and analyzing his play, which is of course subjective. So since that time period, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe and MJ are the people that are around his level. KD's within earshot. If not for the injured seasons he'd be on the doorstep. But I've talked earlier about how KD's missing that key ability to game manage which is really keeping him from ever entering this convo in earnest.

Lebron's only definitely under MJ. Gap may not be as wide as some MJ fans may think but it's a solid gap nonetheless. The rest?

He's better than Magic for me(and yes as I always say I think Bird's better than Magic too-again because of what I saw).

Bird vs Lebron's a tough one for me but I lean Lebron. Lebron's weakside help defense breaks the tie for me.

Shaq was too inconsistent mentally (and physically as well with the big toe stuff but can you really blame a guy who took that much punishment? Sure you can because he dealt it too lol)

Duncan is hard to rate due to his fortuitous circumstances. I'll leave it at that.

Hakeem was monstrous when he put it all together but it took him a while to do so. An unfortunate case of mental and physical peaks being too far apart to take full advantage.

Kobe's a player who on the surface looks better than he really is upon closer examination. Of course still a great, great player but just short of Lebron. He's a guy I wonder if he could've been better if he was more methodical and less ferocious. Or would that take away some of what makes him great? For someone so meticulous he could be so reckless on the court. It's analogous to a poker player who plays too loose but is so smart and good at bluffing that it makes him dangerous to face but would play better if he was more conservative.

As for longevity: I don't care for the totals Lebron's collecting. But there's a difference between collecting numbers in your twilight while not moving the needle and what Lebron's done with the Lakers this season. So that's def notable.

I think I've seen some bad posts from you, but even if I have and even if I don't necessarily agree with all this, this is an intelligent post.

I think the Kobe thing is spot on. And, simply, well put.

Michael was ferocious. But Michael was methodical, too. After a certain point Kobe just became disingenuous, and he actually was the bridge to this generation of AAU-minded basketball. Trying too much to have a chip on his shoulder, to emulate Michael's making a mountain out of a molehill for motivation.

Kobe is tough as nails tho. He had that. He was freakishly athletic, more skilled than the others, had the mindset and the concentration levels, intelligence and wit...but he overthought it all, too much of the time.

But the gap between Michael and LeBron pretty damn solid lol. LeBron could fall thru it and hurt himself.

[FKAri]

I think I've seen some bad posts from you, but even if I have and even if I don't necessarily agree with all this, this is an intelligent post.

I think the Kobe thing is spot on. And, simply, well put.

Michael was ferocious. But Michael was methodical, too. After a certain point Kobe just became disingenuous, and he actually was the bridge to this generation of AAU-minded basketball. Trying too much to have a chip on his shoulder, to emulate Michael's making a mountain out of a molehill for motivation.

Kobe is tough as nails tho. He had that. He was freakishly athletic, more skilled than the others, had the mindset and the concentration levels, intelligence and wit...but he overthought it all, too much of the time.

But the gap between Michael and LeBron pretty damn solid lol. LeBron could fall thru it and hurt himself.

Exactly! The overthinking. It's what I felt too. He'd make seemingly reckless plays which were his idea of shock and awe tactics. Or he'd do things like if the defense gave him a wide open lane, he'd drive and dunk but if it did it again the next play, he'd shoot a 3. Why? Because **** you. I won't let the defense dictate which shots I take. That's becoming predictable and allowing the enemy to control you. He'd go too far down this rabbit hole of thought processes. Then there were times where his play would devolve into individual displays of machismo even in important playoff games. With Shaq there was often a sense that for Kobe winning on his terms meant more than winning on anyone else's terms. This is why that alleyoop to Shaq where after he lands he's pointing at Shareef (up in the box?) was such a big moment. It was like wow Kobe's not doing it on his terms.

These mental hangups or distractions or whatever you want to call them held Kobe back imho. Again this is only a nitpick because whatever his mental approach was and whatever he was doing it worked out better than it has for almost anybody. I just feel that it wasn't ideal and that MJ never(OK, rarely) got sidetracked like this. tbh I don't think his mind was hyperactive like Kobe's either. It's a narrow line to walk as a competitor in any sport to keep a cold calculated mental calm without losing that animalistic competitive energy. I'm just opining that MJ was MUCH better at walking this line and he started doing it much earlier in his career as well.

[Axe]

Lebron already surpassed larry bird when the Cavaliers beat a 73 wins team in 2016 despite being down 3-1 in the nba finals. LeBron also have more mvp, and finals mvp than bird. Better overall stats from the regular season and finals.
Don't forget that lbj also has more losses in the finals as well.

[Whoah10115]

Exactly! The overthinking. It's what I felt too. He'd make seemingly reckless plays which were his idea of shock and awe tactics. Or he'd do things like if the defense gave him a wide open lane, he'd drive and dunk but if it did it again the next play, he'd shoot a 3. Why? Because **** you. I won't let the defense dictate which shots I take. That's becoming predictable and allowing the enemy to control you. He'd go too far down this rabbit hole of thought processes. Then there were times where his play would devolve into individual displays of machismo even in important playoff games. With Shaq there was often a sense that for Kobe winning on his terms meant more than winning on anyone else's terms. This is why that alleyoop to Shaq where after he lands he's pointing at Shareef (up in the box?) was such a big moment. It was like wow Kobe's not doing it on his terms.

These mental hangups or distractions or whatever you want to call them held Kobe back imho. Again this is only a nitpick because whatever his mental approach was and whatever he was doing it worked out better than it has for almost anybody. I just feel that it wasn't ideal and that MJ never(OK, rarely) got sidetracked like this. tbh I don't think his mind was hyperactive like Kobe's either. It's a narrow line to walk as a competitor in any sport to keep a cold calculated mental calm without losing that animalistic competitive energy. I'm just opining that MJ was MUCH better at walking this line and he started doing it much earlier in his career as well.


Yeah it was cool in the beginning but everyone evolves. I think Kobe doubled down and went the wrong way. That was why his MVP season was weird. I used to say it should been Chris Paul, tho to be fair Kobe's Lakers weren't as good as they were the next year. Either way, there was something overly deliberate about his season, at times.

He did it all. Had his crazy scoring seasons, had his sidekick seasons, had his facilitator seasons. But 3peat to 04 was when he played the game in a way I couldn't say anything about. His 05/06 season came a year later than most had anticipated, tho sometimes you just gotta give it up. But even so, he accumulated a lot.

LeBron does the same, but he's never been in the triangle. That has its advantages, and its disadvantages. But the approach is so skewed. And keeping it on Kobe, you're right that his mind was hyperactive. That's just who he was. But you're also right that Jordan didn't get sidetracked.

It's cool to do something just because. But he went out of his way to keep doing it, at the expense of organic things. He's still hugely underappreciated, tho much of it is because he's always been Enemy #1 in the eyes of many on the internet. I remember being a teenager and those who said McGrady was better, as if Kobe was the popular band but McGrady was the underground guy who had the real goods. Maybe they were on the Grant Hill bandwagon, as many were (he seemed the Air Apparent), and then Kobe just suddenly became this thing..Vince Carter had a little run before McGrady, then some others got in on it and finally LeBron stuck.

I feel like Kobe was eager to troll them harder than they could ever troll...usually worked, but getting stuck in it is never good...entertaining as he will always Be.

[LAL]

I can't comment on anyone who played before the 80's. But since? Lebron's top 5 convincingly for me. And it's based on just watching and analyzing his play, which is of course subjective. So since that time period, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe and MJ are the people that are around his level. KD's within earshot. If not for the injured seasons he'd be on the doorstep. But I've talked earlier about how KD's missing that key ability to game manage which is really keeping him from ever entering this convo in earnest.

Lebron's only definitely under MJ. Gap may not be as wide as some MJ fans may think but it's a solid gap nonetheless. The rest?

He's better than Magic for me(and yes as I always say I think Bird's better than Magic too-again because of what I saw).

Bird vs Lebron's a tough one for me but I lean Lebron. Lebron's weakside help defense breaks the tie for me.

Shaq was too inconsistent mentally (and physically as well with the big toe stuff but can you really blame a guy who took that much punishment? Sure you can because he dealt it too lol)

Duncan is hard to rate due to his fortuitous circumstances. I'll leave it at that.

Hakeem was monstrous when he put it all together but it took him a while to do so. An unfortunate case of mental and physical peaks being too far apart to take full advantage.

Kobe's a player who on the surface looks better than he really is upon closer examination. Of course still a great, great player but just short of Lebron. He's a guy I wonder if he could've been better if he was more methodical and less ferocious. Or would that take away some of what makes him great? For someone so meticulous he could be so reckless on the court. It's analogous to a poker player who plays too loose but is so smart and good at bluffing that it makes him dangerous to face but would play better if he was more conservative.

As for longevity: I don't care for the totals Lebron's collecting. But there's a difference between collecting numbers in your twilight while not moving the needle and what Lebron's done with the Lakers this season. So that's def notable.

Load of crap lol. You think if we put context to lebron's stats and game, he looks better? No you'll find that he was a stat based player, weak skills, unreliable jumper, no creativity, soft mentality, passive, bron system, free throws, ringchasing in the east, never bad games on paper even when playing horrible or gets shutdown, 6 finals losses, etc

Stats tell us kobe is a lesser player than lebron but if were going to put context to his career, you'll see a player with hardly any weaknesses, mentality, killer, clutch, Wasn't getting minutes his first years and then post achilles but still winning more than lebron ever did and out west all during his 13 year prime that we care about, context. But nope, we have to focus on crap like "being reckless" as something to critisize him for or lower his atg ranking for.. meanwhile we have to ignore all of lebron's basic flaws and faillures, he should be higher on the list! Jezus christ imagine if lebron had more rings than kobe and less finals losses.

[86Celtics]

Lebron already surpassed larry bird when the Cavaliers beat a 73 wins team in 2016 despite being down 3-1 in the nba finals. LeBron also have more mvp, and finals mvp than bird. Better overall stats from the regular season and finals.

Overall stats are overrated. Skill and fundamentals should come first. James has amassed amazing records over the years. But could he ever do something like this?
https://www.nba.com/article/2018/02/13/week-history-larry-bird-left-handed-triple-double

Could anyone else for that matter? Peak Bird should be in contention not for a spot in the top5 but as the best ever.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He's got a Top 3 case with his longevity and postseason play. He's what, one of 2 or 3 players with THREE FMVPs?

At the same time, I can see why people are reluctant to put him there. Weird chokes, an inconsistent jumper and not enough off-ball play with too much focus on raw stats. I don't fully agree, but understand the criticism.

[aj1987]

Load of crap lol. You think if we put context to lebron's stats and game, he looks better? No you'll find that he was a stat based player, weak skills, unreliable jumper, no creativity, soft mentality, passive, bron system, free throws, ringchasing in the east, never bad games on paper even when playing horrible or gets shutdown, 6 finals losses, etc

Stats tell us kobe is a lesser player than lebron but if were going to put context to his career, you'll see a player with hardly any weaknesses, mentality, killer, clutch, Wasn't getting minutes his first years and then post achilles but still winning more than lebron ever did and out west all during his 13 year prime that we care about, context. But nope, we have to focus on crap like "being reckless" as something to critisize him for or lower his atg ranking for.. meanwhile we have to ignore all of lebron's basic flaws and faillures, he should be higher on the list! Jezus christ imagine if lebron had more rings than kobe and less finals losses.

I really shouldn't entertain your autism, but I'm bored today.

You do know that LeBron is the GOAT elimination game performer, GOAT G7 performer, has the most buzzer beater game winners in the PO's, and has significantly better clutch stats than Kobe, right?I guess not. If you did, you wouldn't post this drivel.

Before you spaz out and go "but but statzz!!!1", LeBron also has better records than MJ and Kobe in elimination games and G7's.

[SouBeachTalents]

He's got a Top 3 case with his longevity and postseason play. He's what, one of 2 or 3 players with THREE FMVPs?

At the same time, I can see why people are reluctant to put him there. Weird chokes, an inconsistent jumper and not enough off-ball play with too much focus on raw stats. I don't fully agree, but understand the criticism.
Has he really had any chokes since 2011 though? The thing even after 17 seasons he hasn't been able to put together is his approach to crunchtime. He's definitely improved, and we've seen him be assertive and dominate the end of games, hence all his playoff game winners. But he's still FAR too willing to take a backseat and defer to his teammates to a fault, when they actually need him to be aggressive and get crucial buckets.

The two notable times he showed this recently was the end of Game 3 in 2017, and while I'm not gonna kill the guy for it after 51 points and making a good pass, I hate how he made NO effort to score on Curry, just stood there with the ball above his head for 5-10 seconds with no intention to try to score himself.

But in terms of legitimate choking? I feel like he's been great every year in the playoffs for basically the past decade

[Axe]

I really shouldn't entertain your autism, but I'm bored today.

You do know that LeBron is the GOAT elimination game performer, GOAT G7 performer, has the most buzzer beater game winners in the PO's, and has significantly better clutch stats than Kobe, right?I guess not. If you did, you wouldn't post this drivel.

Before you spaz out and go "but but statzz!!!1", LeBron also has better records than MJ and Kobe in elimination games and G7's.
Yip but let's not act too confidently like bran never got swept in the finals not only once but twice, right...

[LeCroix]

Criteria is easy

3 FMVP or more
Shaq
Magic
Duncan
Jordan
LeBron

Plus 4 or more MVPs
Jordan
LeBron

Plus 6000 or more playoff points
LeBron

And there it is

Your welcome

[SATAN]

He got injured last season, this season got shut down while he was playing great...cue the MJ fluff piece and now people start throwing James under the bus all of a sudden. A lot of NBA fans are incredibly dumb. It's actually shocking.

[DoctorP]

brans dope.

as annoying as his antics have been, like trump, hes better than advertised.

def top 10.

#lebronistheblacktrump

[Duderonomy]

Bron went 1-8 vs. the KD warriors. At least Harden's Rockets won 5 games. :oldlol:

[Axe]

Bron went 1-8 vs. the KD warriors. At least Harden's Rockets won 5 games. :oldlol:
But, but, kd had help...

[DoctorP]

Bron went 1-8 vs. the KD warriors. At least Harden's Rockets won 5 games. :oldlol:

https://media.giphy.com/media/42JjMMLjcZSB72bBiC/giphy.gif

[AlternativeAcc.]

Bron went 1-8 vs. the KD warriors. At least Harden's Rockets won 5 games. :oldlol:

The rockets were an all time great team themselves. They're better than any team Jordan faced in the finals by a long shot

Thanks for bringing them up

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Has he really had any chokes since 2011 though? The thing even after 17 seasons he hasn't been able to put together is his approach to crunchtime. He's definitely improved, and we've seen him be assertive and dominate the end of games, hence all his playoff game winners. But he's still FAR too willing to take a backseat and defer to his teammates to a fault, when they actually need him to be aggressive and get crucial buckets.

The two notable times he showed this recently was the end of Game 3 in 2017, and while I'm not gonna kill the guy for it after 51 points and making a good pass, I hate how he made NO effort to score on Curry, just stood there with the ball above his head for 5-10 seconds with no intention to try to score himself.

But in terms of legitimate choking? I feel like he's been great every year in the playoffs for basically the past decade

I think 2010 was odd. The whole "elbowgate" stuff was REALLY weird. Don't know if anyone thinks Lebron choked in 2018. Where he had 51 and then turned into Casper during OT - to me, that was basically a choke.

Your post overall is a good one. I have Bron Top 3-5 depending on the day, and he's still one of the GOAT playoff performers. Signature games everywhere.

[RRR3]

I think 2010 was odd. The whole "elbowgate" stuff was REALLY weird. Don't know if anyone thinks Lebron choked in 2018. Where he had 51 and then turned into Casper during OT - to me, that was basically a choke.

Your post overall is a good one. I have Bron Top 3-5 depending on the day, and he's still one of the GOAT playoff performers. Signature games everywhere.
In LeBron's defense, the refs literally ignored protocol to steal that game from him. It was complete bullshit, and they blatantly gifted the Warriors that game down the stretch.

[LeCroix]

Bron went 1-8 vs. the KD warriors. At least Harden's Rockets won 5 games. :oldlol:

post the rosters

thanks rookie :lol

[red1]

you just have to look at how good a player is. insightful analysis from fultz - a player who is dominant at multiple aspects of the game brings a larger, more full package to the court.


lebron is top-2 all-time. best player in the world from 2009 - now. more importantly he has 3 finals MVPs despite silver and stern rigging against him and despite being robbed by injuries (2014 and 2015) and being robbed by the most stacked team of all-time (2017 and 2018).

[warriorfan]

Bron went 1-8 vs. the KD warriors. At least Harden's Rockets won 5 games. :oldlol:

:roll:

LeBron getting outdone by James Harden the “playoff choker”.

Really makes you think...Very interesting.

[tontoz]

Pretty easy to put Lebron top 3. The only people who you could conceivably put over him are Jordan and Kareem. i don't see a case for anyone else.

[WhiteKyrie]

Winning is the big thing people bring up with him but he has more rings as the best player than anyone other than Russell, Jordan, and Duncan.

More? Um no. He’s in the tier with Magic, and Bird.

All won 3 rings as definitely the best player. Magic could be considered with slightly more. Maybe 4 as best player.

And if we are being truly honest, Shaq was more dominant, but Kobe’s production in 2001 and 2002 is that of a bonnafide superstar top five player in the league caliber “best player” championships.

[aj1987]

Yip but let's not act too confidently like bran never got swept in the finals not only once but twice, right...

What does that have anything to do with my post, you autistic shit? :oldlol:

[Axe]

What does that have anything to do with my post, you autistic shit? :oldlol:
Because of the way ye said that he was the goat as if the nikker never had his own shortcomings at all, ye pathetic dummie.. :lol

[bullettooth]

18-31

Or 18/49.... LeBron's legacy will be that of being a finals loser.

[aj1987]

Because of the way ye said that he was the goat as if the nikker never had his own shortcomings at all, ye pathetic dummie.. :lol

When did I say he's the GOAT, you autistic shit?

[Axe]

When did I say he's the GOAT, you autistic shit?
Ye see, laddie, ye just keep on getting dumber with each passing day...


I really shouldn't entertain your autism, but I'm bored today.

You do know that LeBron is the GOAT elimination game performer, GOAT G7 performer, has the most buzzer beater game winners in the PO's, and has significantly better clutch stats than Kobe, right?I guess not. If you did, you wouldn't post this drivel.

Before you spaz out and go "but but statzz!!!1", LeBron also has better records than MJ and Kobe in elimination games and G7's.
So more or less, I can't be wrong that ye already think he's the goat.

Just sayin'. Please don't cry.

[aj1987]

Ye see, laddie, ye just keep on getting dumber with each passing day...


So more or less, I can't be wrong that ye already think he's the goat.

Just sayin'. Please don't cry.

Good lord. No where in that post did I say LeBron is the GOAT. I said he's the GOAT elimination game and GOAT G7 performer, which is an undeniable fact, shit for brains.

[Axe]

Good lord. No where in that post did I say LeBron is the GOAT. I said he's the GOAT elimination game and GOAT G7 performer, which is an undeniable fact, shit for brains.
Because ye do realize he also used to carry a team full with bunch of scrubs in teh playoffs and finals, ye dumbfvck...

[aj1987]

Because ye do realize he also used to carry a team full with bunch of scrubs in teh playoffs and finals, ye dumbfvck...

Go take your autism pills, shit for brains. You're losing it.

[Axe]

Go take your autism pills, shit for brains. You're losing it.
Pfft. Says teh retarded filthy maggot who loves to drink pee and eat turd for breakfast...

[Roundball_Rock]

More? Um no. He’s in the tier with Magic, and Bird.

All won 3 rings as definitely the best player. Magic could be considered with slightly more. Maybe 4 as best player.

And if we are being truly honest, Shaq was more dominant, but Kobe’s production in 2001 and 2002 is that of a bonnafide superstar top five player in the league caliber “best player” championships.

Magic has 2 rings as the clear cut best player, same as Kobe. LeBron has 3 (Duncan has 4 and no one ever talks about it because it is not a legitimate category, just convenient for agendas). It is a dumb definition but if we are going to run around pushing it the same standard has to be applied across the board.

Magic at least was 1a or 1b for a couple; Kobe was a clear sidekick. Being top 5 doesn't matter when they other guy is clearly better. Pippen doesn't get credit for being top 5 alongside MJ, for example.

The Lakers sucked with Kobe, without Shaq. They were elite with Shaq, without Kobe. It is obvious who the more important player was.

[Manny98]

Beat 73 team - check

Win 3 FMVPs - check

Win 4 MVPs - check

Top 1 in postseason points - check

Won championships for multiple franchises - check

Beat a team with 3 MVPs - check

Finish top 2 in DPOY voting - check

Top 2 in PER - check

Most playoff game winners - check

Most NBA 1st teams - check

[LAL]

Magic has 2 rings as the clear cut best player, same as Kobe. LeBron has 3 (Duncan has 4 and no one ever talks about it because it is not a legitimate category, just convenient for agendas). It is a dumb definition but if we are going to run around pushing it the same standard has to be applied across the board.

Magic at least was 1a or 1b for a couple; Kobe was a clear sidekick. Being top 5 doesn't matter when they other guy is clearly better. Pippen doesn't get credit for being top 5 alongside MJ, for example.

The Lakers sucked with Kobe, without Shaq. They were elite with Shaq, without Kobe. It is obvious who the more important player was.
Kobe sidekick? What were kareem "your goat" numbers in the last 3 or 4 finals? 1a,1b? Lol. What was worthy then, as a all star and fmvp? Have you seen some of duncan's numbers? Kobe "the sidekick" did better with shaq than duncan in some of championship years, including teammates winning fmvp's instead of him.. Why are you bringing up reg season games to diminish kobe? "Lakers sucked with kobe, better with shaq" ****ing moron, he three peated with shaq and bums and almost did the same with pau. Focus on Lebron dude.. 18 prime seasons, barely 3 ringchasing chips in a weak east with 6 finals losses, 15 years of excuses? Only kobe is not allowed to play with a superstar or HOF, or win 5/7 in a 13 year prime out West. Meanwhile you have magic & Kareem always comfortable in that top 4 spot. But but kobe had shaq, fisher and rick fox!

[Nowitness]

Kobe did well to achieve with his limited abilities, but he is universally considered the 12th best player of all time. With time and without nostalgia I see him being cemented as the 15th best ever, meanwhile LBJ is universally a top 5 player, 90% of people have him top 3 and the only ones who don't are the people who beat Kobe in an effort to make their era seem better than this one (news flash, it wasn't).

[34-24 Footwork]

Man. After seeing the nerds in this thread, I'm happy that Vince, MJ, KD, Kyrie, Shaq, and Wade agree with me. Lol

[LAL]

Kobe did well to achieve with his limited abilities, but he is universally considered the 12th best player of all time. With time and without nostalgia I see him being cemented as the 15th best ever, meanwhile LBJ is universally a top 5 player, 90% of people have him top 3 and the only ones who don't are the people who beat Kobe in an effort to make their era seem better than this one (news flash, it wasn't).
Limited abilities, kobe? Whar's your favourite lebron go to move? He has to be crazy skillful to be considered such a great player, since he lost so many damn times while ringchasing? Or is it the stats he accumulated playing in his tailor made system, made to hide his weaknesses? Why 6 finals losses after sleepwalking trough the east with superstars?

[Nowitness]

Limited abilities, first 8 years of his career all he could do was jump, second half all he could do was fadeaway. In the end, LeBron has 3 Alpha rings, and 6 Finals appearances as either the best player on his team, or best player period. He also has 6 seasons in which he was the best player in the league. Kobe has 1 Alpha ring (2009), and one other finals in which he was either the best player on his team or overall (2008). Kobe also has 1 season in which he was the best player. 12th best player of all time, he is in the same category as a Dr J or Moses Malone, LBJ is right next to MJ, Duncan and Magic. You will soon learn to accept this sad reality.

[LAL]

Limited abilities, first 8 years of his career all he could do was jump, second half all he could do was fadeaway. In the end, LeBron has 3 Alpha rings, and 6 Finals appearances as either the best player on his team, or best player period. He also has 6 seasons in which he was the best player in the league. Kobe has 1 Alpha ring (2009), and one other finals in which he was either the best player on his team or overall (2008). Kobe also has 1 season in which he was the best player. 12th best player of all time, he is in the same category as a Dr J or Moses Malone, LBJ is right next to MJ, Duncan and Magic. You will soon learn to accept this sad reality.

Lebron really not giving you bronsexuals enough to work with, that's unfair towards his fans, so many losses, flaws, decisions and shutdowns, all he can give you guys are stats and media awards and you just have to dumb down your bball knowledge like this just for that overrated media darling. Sad.

[Nowitness]

LBJ is blasted for being an outspoken social critic willing to protect his fellow man, Kobe survived raping someone. I know who the media protects more, not sure about you.

[LAL]

LBJ is blasted for being an outspoken social critic willing to protect his fellow man, Kobe survived raping someone. I know who the media protects more, not sure about you.

Keep protecting that Dumbass who thinks he's malcolm x with a nike contract and keep siding with them golddigging whores, you're ****ing soft like your boy. Bringing up rape because i brought up lebron's flaws in his game. Jezus bronsexuals

[aj1987]

Pfft. Says teh retarded filthy maggot who loves to drink pee and eat turd for breakfast...

Please do us all a favor and go play on a freeway, you subhuman cretin.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Hahahahahaha

[NBAGOAT]

Combination of peak lvl play and meaningful longevity. Bron is top 5 in both so he should be considered top 5 all time pretty easily.

The longevity stuff isn’t too debatable. It goes like Kareem, Malone, Stockton and not much else. I’m not really counting role players so Vince carter doesn’t count when he’s been a role player basically since 2011.

The peak stuff is more debatable but I just think he has a top 5 peak. Bird was mentioned early on as having a similar resume but bron clearly has better longevity. I personally think a better peak too.

[light]

Since this site only ever has Lebron threads, I figured I'd ask a general question. To those of you who rank Bron top 5 ever or even higher, what criteria did you use to determine this? Accomplishment-wise, he has quite a similar resume to Larry Bird (though obviously Bron got him on longevity). Lots of stats, some large awards and many peers give them praise. However, on the championship side, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Jordan, Magic, Kareem all got him in the modern era as top-dogs on their teams at various points. Then of course there's Bill Russell, the ultimate winner and Wilt the ultimate checkmy$tat$. Then you have people with some of the GOAT carry's in NBA history like Dirk or Hakeem. Again, what exactly sets Bron ahead of so many of these guys for you?

Most people used their eyes.

People have completely forgotten something: Ringless, 1 MVP Michael Jordan was already in the GOAT debate by 1989.

In the late 1980’s a lot of people thought Jordan was the greatest player of all time based on physical dominance and sheer ability.


We’d never seen anything like him before.

His physical advantages exceeded everyone else because he was so athletic.

By 1989 Jordan was considered not only the best athlete the game, but the best athlete in sports. That, coupled with his elite talent and elite skill, made him historically unique and people felt like they didn’t need to see him win anything before they started talking about him being the greatest.

1989:
https://s7.gifyu.com/images/MJ-Hawks-GOAT.png

1989:
https://s7.gifyu.com/images/MJ-greatest-question.png

1989:
https://s7.gifyu.com/images/MJ-best-of-all-time.png

1989:
https://s7.gifyu.com/images/MJ-GREATS.png

1990:
https://s7.gifyu.com/images/MJ-lace-em-up-1990.png

https://s6.gifyu.com/images/separator-light1378072ed9159071.gif

So when Jordan retired the first time after 3 rings he was the popular GOAT choice.

It didn’t matter that he trailed Magic by 2 rings and Kareem by 3.

https://s6.gifyu.com/images/separator-light1378072ed9159071.gif

The same thing that happened with Jordan is happening with LeBron.

Like with Jordan in 1989, LeBron was also considered to be the best athlete in all of sports (ever?). But his physical advantages exceeded even Michael Jordan’s. "He's like Michael Jordan, but he's bigger, stronger and faster than Michael Jordan."

We have definitely never seen LeBron's elite talent and elite skill in his body with his athleticism.

This is why, even when LeBron was ringless, we still had Oscar Robertson saying “he’s in a class by himself” and Larry Bird saying “He’s as good as anyone that’s ever played” and Scottie Pippen saying “LeBron James may be the greatest player to ever play the game.”

Right now LeBron trails Jordan by 3 rings and he trails other greats in ring count, but like with MJ, that doesn’t even matter.

LeBron is doing to Jordan what Jordan did to Magic and Kareem.

[Axe]

Please do us all a favor and go play on a freeway, you subhuman cretin.
Ye fat ass itching once again that you still have to respond to a week-old reply? Puh-lease...

But yea, keep barking like a useless mutt, doggie..

Bite me first if ye can if what ye say is true...

No bite = pure BS

[Rico2016]

He didn't face defenses like this:

https://sneakerbardetroit.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/michael-jordan-63-points-boston-celtics.jpg

http://jordansdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/april-20th-1986-michael-jordan-63-points-celtics-01.jpg

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/michael-jordan-of-the-chicago-bulls-shoots-over-danny-ainge-of-the-picture-id85471595