View Full Version : Was Kobe an overrated Playoff Performer?
HoopsNY
05-14-2020, 07:46 PM
I get why people love Kobe Bryant, and they should. He was a phenomenal athlete with a superior work ethnic, and a lot of accomplishments.
Having said that, should he be glorified the way he is for his playoff performances? I watched him his entire career and saw him play horribly in a number of playoff series. What is also often ignored is a player's performances in elimination games. Kobe has a number of underwhelming performances in playoff, finals, and elimination games.
What are other people's thoughts?
Overrated in the finals at least. He generally maintained and sometimes raised his regular season level of play throughout the first 3 rounds though which should be commended.
Vino24
05-14-2020, 07:54 PM
He’s basically an athletic Paul Pierce with a stacked team. Paul Pierce although had more skill
Whoah10115
05-14-2020, 08:01 PM
Not really.
He overdid a lot tho. I think his best was really during last two titles with Shaq and that 02/03 season.
I know what Shaq did, but doesn't mean that Kobe wasn't as good and often better.
Ah well for those who don't agree.
In Finals...I mean, 01 and 02, plus their two wins? Don't get that, at all.
Roundball_Rock
05-14-2020, 08:04 PM
Playoffs not really but finals for sure. 25/6/5 on 41% and he is the poster child of clutch for the masses?
Soundwave
05-14-2020, 08:10 PM
Kobe's playoff numbers are higher if you count from 2001 onwards where he got equal opportunity with Shaq.
From that point on he averages about 29 ppg for example, which is one of the highest scoring averages in NBA playoff history and it's not a small sample size that's 11 playoff runs.
Like 00-01 is supposedly a "sidekick ring" but he averaged 29.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 6.1 apg, 1.6 spg on 48.5% FG and that was an era that was harder to score in.
Roundball_Rock
05-14-2020, 10:26 PM
The issue is how he got those numbers. He was a 41% career finals shooter and he is touted as Mr. Clutch.
sportjames23
05-15-2020, 01:12 AM
The issue is how he got those numbers. He was a 41% career finals shooter and he is touted as Mr. Clutch.
Bron is a career 33% Finals winner and he's touted by some as the GOAT.
Jacks3
05-15-2020, 01:21 AM
Well let's look at his numbers over his ten year prime.
28 series/148 games
01-10 Kobe: 28.8/5.7/5.4/1.5/0.6/42.5 MPG
31.7% USG/10.8% TOV rate/24.5 AST%/23.5 PER/.178 WS/48, 6.1 BPM, 23.3 WS, 12.9 VORP
54.8% TS (+3.4 rTS), 111 ORTG (+9 rel ORTG)
35.8 Points Per 100
The average team he played over that stretch had a 5.5 SRS and ranked #5 in DRTG.
For comparison, this is Prime Bird:
26 series/138 games
80-88 Bird: 24.8/10.6/6.5/1.9/0.9/42.7 MPG
25.0% USG/12.5% TOV rate/23.9 AST%/22.1 PER/.186 WS/48, 7.6 BPM, 22.5 WS, 14.0 VORP
55.8% TS (+2.8 rTS), 115 ORTG (+9)
28.6 Points Per 100
**post-season TS/ORTG adjusted for opponent defensive quality**
They look extremely similar and the overwhelming consensus is that Bird is top ten all-time.
HBK_Kliq_2
05-15-2020, 01:24 AM
He has 2-3 years in playoffs where he stuck out as a top 10 all-time playoff great.
2001 - His stats and playoff record were incredible this year but he never played at this level again while with Shaq.
2008 - Destroyed the defending champions spurs in west finals. I heard this is when Tim Duncan's knee started acting up. Kobe made Duncan look very silly this series. Unfortunately, he followed it up with a terrible series vs celtics
2009 - This was probably his most complete run because he finally was the alpha of a title team and finally had a great finals performance.
The rest of his playoff career he doesn't really perform like a top 10 all-time playoff performer.
HoopsNY
05-15-2020, 01:44 AM
I considered the following when weighing all of this.
Kobe's rookie season he was god awful in the playoffs, especially when you look at the 4 air-ball special he provided in the '97 series against Utah, and to add insult to injury - that was in the 4th quarter and OT.
The following season he averaged almost half as many points in the playoffs as he did in the regular season (15.4 reg. season to 8.7 in the playoffs) and shot 40.8%.
In the 2000 finals he was awful, averaging 15.6 ppg and shooting 36.7%.
In 2001 he was a little better where he averaged over 24 ppg, but again he shot 40%.
2004 finals was miserable, averaging 22 ppg but shooting 38%.
Then there was the infamous meltdown in the Suns series where LA was up 3-1 and Phoenix came back to win the series. In game 7 during the second half, Kobe stops shooting the ball. Had to be one of the worst playoff series for the Lakers in their history. Kobe played in the 4th quarter of game 7 and had 0 points.
In 2008 in game 6, (elimination game), Kobe shoots 7-22 (31.8%) with 4 turnovers and just 1 assist. Lakers get blown out and the rest is history.
Then in 2010, in game 7, he doesn't have a terrible game as he had 23 pts and 15 rebs, but damn he shot 6-24 (25%) including 0-6 from deep with 4 turnovers to just 2 assists. They're lucky they won the game and the series, otherwise that would have been spoken about at length.
In 2011, the Mavs sweep LA and Kobe averages just 23 ppg. In the close out game he scores just 17 pts on 39% shooting with 5 turnovers (1 assist). His assist to turnover ratio is usually pretty bad in these situations it seems.
I see a lot of people putting Kobe in their top 3. I'm not sure I can reason with that given a plethora of factors, particularly finals and elimination game performances. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I see it.
SouBeachTalents
05-15-2020, 03:17 AM
Of Kobe's 10 prime seasons (01-10), he played at an elite level in 4 of the 9 years he made the playoffs ('01, '08-'10), with '10 being slightly behind the other 3. In 2000 before he made the leap to superstar, he had the clutchest playoff run of his career. He came up with big plays & performances throughout the playoffs (the GW against the Suns, the block on Sabonis, he was the Lakers best player in Game 7, and he closed out the Pacers in Game 4)
His playoff production was often very similar to his regular season output, so I wouldn't say Kobe was an overrated playoff performer. He really did struggle in the Finals & especially in elimination games throughout his career. He often had his most inefficient series in the Finals, and after the 3peat the Lakers got smoked in essentially every elimination game they faced, with Kobe almost always having a poor performance
Someone mentioned it earlier, but I feel the ATG that gets let off the hook the most for subpar playoff performances is Bird. He was no doubt great at his peak from '84-'87, but outside of those years he had some really mediocre to bad playoff performances
Smoke117
05-15-2020, 03:52 AM
Kobe is an overrated everything.
raprap
05-15-2020, 04:59 AM
He had some great series but overall he’s performed average for a superstar. Nothing special like MJ, Magic or Bron has.
SATAN
05-15-2020, 05:10 AM
Kobe is an overrated everything.
Highlight machine, like Wilkins.
Rysio
05-15-2020, 06:58 AM
Kobe is a great playoff performer especially vs the best. Best player on the court vs the best competition like 01 vs spurs, 02 vs spurs, 04 vs spurs, 08 vs spurs, 09 vs nuggets, 10 vs suns.
CodeBreaker
05-15-2020, 06:59 AM
Yes, he doesn't have an iconic Playoff game
knicksman
05-15-2020, 07:03 AM
Kobe is a great playoff performer especially vs the best. Best player on the court vs the best competition like 01 vs spurs, 02 vs spurs, 04 vs spurs, 08 vs spurs, 09 vs nuggets, 10 vs suns.
This. He shows up when it matters the most. The exact opposite of bron. And hes the closer for the lakers coz shaq is pretty much useless in 4th quarters.
ImKobe
05-15-2020, 07:07 AM
Yes, he doesn't have an iconic Playoff game
What constitutes as an "iconic" Playoff game? He had plenty of all-time great Playoff performances. 2000 WCF Game 7, 2000 Finals Game 4, B2B 45+/10+ games on the road against the Kings & Spurs in 2001 when they went undefeated in the WC Playoffs, 39 points in Game 5 of the 2008 WCF with one clutch bucket after another to close out the Spurs, all those great series he had against Denver, Utah, Phoenix during the 3 straight Finals runs.
People who say these things weren't around to actually watch those Playoff runs and don't understand how impressive some of his scoring runs were prior to this 3PT-heavy era. It's only "iconic" for you if someone stuffs the stat sheet.
This. He shows up when it matters the most. The exact opposite of bron. And hes the closer for the lakers coz shaq is pretty much useless in 4th quarters.
That's why he's underrated. He was asked to be the closer of a championship squad at age 21, despite the fact that the Lakers had Shaq at his peak. Kobe in 2000 was the one hitting game-winners and making game-saving defensive plays in that Playoff run. He took over against Portland when Shaq couldn't do it, he won them a Finals game on the road in OT without Shaq, he closed out their first title in that Game 6. Kobe's clutch numbers in that first 3-Peat are ridiculous.
But fourth quarter stats can be misleading, right? Who knows if he was just putting up numbers in the fourth when the game was already decided? When using the NBA’s definition of clutch, the last five minutes of the fourth quarter or overtime, when the score is within five points, we find an interesting result. All stats are per 36 minutes, requiring at least 10 minutes played in clutch situations, and TS% requires a minimum of 15 FGA in clutch situations
https://defpen.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Screen-Shot-2017-06-03-at-3.01.08-PM.png
ArbitraryWater
05-15-2020, 07:08 AM
Its not like anyone thinks Kobe was an ATG playoff performer, right?
Or maybe folks do.. in that case, yes.
ArbitraryWater
05-15-2020, 07:09 AM
What constitutes as an "iconic" Playoff game? He had plenty of all-time great Playoff performances. 2000 WCF Game 7, 2000 Finals Game 4, B2B 45+/10+ games on the road against the Kings & Spurs in 2001 when they went undefeated in the WC Playoffs, 39 points in Game 5 of the 2008 WCF with one clutch bucket after another to close out the Spurs, all those great series he had against Denver, Utah, Phoenix during the 3 straight Finals runs.
People who say these things weren't around to actually watch those Playoff runs and don't understand how impressive some of his scoring runs were prior to this 3PT-heavy era. It's only "iconic" for you if someone stuffs the stat sheet.
2000 Finals game 4 would be standard games for other ATG's, for Kobe it was almost the highlight of his finals career.
28 pts or something?
i mean, cmon
he had great games, nothing close to iconic though
ImKobe
05-15-2020, 07:12 AM
2000 Finals game 4 would be standard games for other ATG's, for Kobe it was almost the highlight of his finals career.
28 pts or something?
i mean, cmon
he had great games, nothing close to iconic though
It's not about the overall boxscore, it's about the fact that he at 21 saved a road Finals Game with Shaq fouled out to pretty much end the series by taking the 3 - 1 lead. 28 points by a guard in that era was highly impressive too, but I can tell you see all the stats as the same.
Its not like anyone thinks Kobe was an ATG playoff performer, right?
Or maybe folks do.. in that case, yes.
So a 5x champion with a 5/7 Finals record is not an all-time great Playoff performer? What are you smoking?
Rysio
05-15-2020, 07:15 AM
Game 6 vs suns in 10 was an iconic game. The shots he made in that game only kobe can make.
ArbitraryWater
05-15-2020, 07:22 AM
Game 6 vs suns in 10 was an iconic game. The shots he made in that game only kobe can make.
probably the closest he ever came, yes
huge magnitude, singlehandedly denied the opponent with unstoppable shotmaking
a worse version of what lebron did to the raptors in the '18 ECSF game 2 (in terms of quality, in terms of magnitude it was obviously more meaningful)
Rysio
05-15-2020, 07:27 AM
probably the closest he ever came, yes
huge magnitude, singlehandedly denied the opponent with unstoppable shotmaking
a worse version of what lebron did to the raptors in the '18 ECSF game 2 (in terms of quality, in terms of magnitude it was obviously more meaningful)
How is a game 2 more meaningful than single handedly denying a game 7 chance for the sun's?
knicksman
05-15-2020, 07:36 AM
How is a game 2 more meaningful than single handedly denying a game 7 chance for the sun's?
Youre talking to a troll. He and RRR3 are proven losers in this forum thats why the 2 just constantly trolls. They want to spread their misery onto others.
ArbitraryWater
05-15-2020, 07:54 AM
How is a game 2 more meaningful than single handedly denying a game 7 chance for the sun's?
read that again
The only player to score 600+ playoff points 3 consecutive times (2008,2009,2010 playoffs)? Without mentioning Frobe.
Kobe is one of the few players to go through 50 wins teams in one playoffs run (2009 Playoffs)?
Beating 24 50+ win teams, all in the western conference
People should watch him play instead, during the playoffs he was absolutely killing everyone and playing high IQ offensively, and playing extremely good D.
ArbitraryWater
05-15-2020, 08:22 AM
The only player to score 600+ playoff points 3 consecutive times (2008,2009,2010 playoffs)? Without mentioning Frobe.
Kobe is one of the few players to go through 50 wins teams in one playoffs run (2009 Playoffs)?
Beating 24 50+ win teams, all in the western conference
People should watch him play instead, during the playoffs he was absolutely killing everyone and playing high IQ offensively, and playing extremely good D.
Who cares? At the end of the day he went through Boozer, Battier/Artest, Melo/Billups, and Dwight Howard.
It was a watered down NBA.
Kobe was the only top 5 player with great help.
He lucked out a window of being the clear favorite with a clear materialistic edge over his other competitors in the bigs he had + Phil, much like MJ had one for most of the 90's.
Replay32
05-15-2020, 08:29 AM
Not really.
He overdid a lot tho. I think his best was really during last two titles with Shaq and that 02/03 season.
I know what Shaq did, but doesn't mean that Kobe wasn't as good and often better.
Ah well for those who don't agree.
In Finals...I mean, 01 and 02, plus their two wins? Don't get that, at all.
:facepalm
iamgine
05-15-2020, 08:43 AM
His performance in 08, 09 and 10 was all-time great. There's not many that can match that 3 years run. I believe only Lebron, MJ and Bird had done better.
Doranku
05-15-2020, 08:49 AM
Playoffs not really but finals for sure. 25/6/5 on 41% and he is the poster child of clutch for the masses?
Again, there's never any context with this. 6 out of the 7 teams Kobe faced in the finals were top 5 defensively (the Pacers were 6th). The '02 Nets, '08 Celtics, and '09 Magic were #1 in the league defensively (Kobe torched two of those 3 teams). The '04 Pistons were one of the greatest defensive teams of all-time.
Bran is the poster child for efficiency, yet he shot a combined 39% (25% from 3) against the '08/'10 Celtics in 13 playoff games.
Kobe was unlucky in the sense that every finals team he faced was a defensively focused team. Still, he played well enough to win 5/7 times against these teams.
Goalgoalabc
05-15-2020, 08:52 AM
Don't think so
Who cares? At the end of the day he went through Boozer, Battier/Artest, Melo/Billups, and Dwight Howard.
It was a watered down NBA.
Kobe was the only top 5 player with great help.
He lucked out a window of being the clear favorite with a clear materialistic edge over his other competitors in the bigs he had + Phil, much like MJ had one for most of the 90's.
How many 50+ win teams did lebron face? I don't even know why i'm replying to you.
tpols
05-15-2020, 09:15 AM
kobe faced the most stacked playoff competition of all time and his numbers improved.
western gauntlet + finals opponents that were literally the greatest defenses of all time ('08 Celtics & '04 Pistons)
Go look up Lebron's numbers in the '08 series. He got absolutely locked down.
999Guy
05-15-2020, 09:17 AM
Kobe has some series where he really, really killed teams. Utah, PHX, DEN from 08-10.
He was decent against SA contrary to popular belief, not amazing. Got shackled by Boston both times. OKC’s athleticism gave him problems.
Even Orlando with the strategy of letting stars get massive usage, he didn’t do much to them. They won with defense in 09.
He’s really a big-time killer of below average to decent defenses. Elite ones have their way.
He’s probably overrated a bit just based on the rings he won, both of which he probably doesn’t get if Boston was healthy in 09 and 10. But not too overrated.
However I see people say he is a better playoff performer thanKD(who faced much tougher completion in his OKC prime), and just automatically seen as better than a guy like CP3 in the playoffs, which I really don’t believe either.
ArbitraryWater
05-15-2020, 09:32 AM
How many 50+ win teams did lebron face? I don't even know why i'm replying to you.
27, of which he beat 17
Doranku
05-15-2020, 10:03 AM
Kobe has some series where he really, really killed teams. Utah, PHX, DEN from 08-10.
He was decent against SA contrary to popular belief, not amazing. Got shackled by Boston both times. OKC’s athleticism gave him problems.
Even Orlando with the strategy of letting stars get massive usage, he didn’t do much to them. They won with defense in 09.
He’s really a big-time killer of below average to decent defenses. Elite ones have their way.
He’s probably overrated a bit just based on the rings he won, both of which he probably doesn’t get if Boston was healthy in 09 and 10. But not too overrated.
However I see people say he is a better playoff performer thanKD(who faced much tougher completion in his OKC prime), and just automatically seen as better than a guy like CP3 in the playoffs, which I really don’t believe either.
Just a bunch of laughable stuff in this post.
-32/6/7/1/1 = "didn't do much"
-The Lakers probably don't win in 2010 if Perkins doesn't miss 1 game, but Bynum missing the entire series in '08 means nothing (typical Kobe hater logic)
-Old Duncan = "much tougher" competition than peak Duncan
-I don't know why I'm even responding to the CP3 comment. Chris Paul has won FOUR playoff series as the #1 option. Four. And you want to somehow compare that guy to Kobe Bryant. **** outta here. :oldlol:
Whoah10115
05-15-2020, 10:17 AM
Kobe is an overrated everything.
Despite what some other posters might think, you're too smart a basketball follower to believe this.
27, of which he beat 17
That's so impressive, eastern conference too? 18 seasons as the focal point? You were impressed with those playoffs teams that lebron beat with wade, bosh, allen, kyrie and love? Eastern conference? Only kobe had help with Pau out West? "PHil JaCKsOn" :oldlol:
Mamba4Life
05-15-2020, 10:30 AM
Kobe’s best playoff performances are worse than LeBron’s worst performances
Roundball_Rock
05-15-2020, 10:37 AM
Kobe was unlucky in the sense that every finals team he faced was a defensively focused team.
What kind of teams do you think tend to make the finals? Look at the defensive rank of champs since 2010: 5th, 11th, 2nd, 10th, 1st, 3rd, 9th, 4th, 8th, 4th.
Kobe’s best playoff performances are worse than LeBron’s worst performances
No useless guy, kobe PERFORMED better than lebron. You're talking about stats dummy, he never has bad stats.. that's his main focus if you watch him play and dribble and share like he has no responsibility to kill teams.
What kind of teams do you think tend to make the finals? Look at the defensive rank of champs since 2010: 5th, 11th, 2nd, 10th, 1st, 3rd, 9th, 4th, 8th, 4th.
Focus on regular season wins bro
Kobe’s best playoff performances are worse than LeBron’s worst performances
Which is pretty ironic coming from someone with a username that has 'Mamba' on it
ImKobe
05-15-2020, 11:24 AM
Kobe’s best playoff performances are worse than LeBron’s worst performances
Forgot about 2007 & 2011 Finals already, Wheels?
HoopsNY
05-15-2020, 11:26 AM
So it seems a lot of people focus on the 2008-2010 years, which is understandable. Kobe had some ridiculous performances during that stretch, especially considering he faced off against teams like Boston.
But his career stretched some 20 years, so to focus more so on a 3 year stretch (that include some poor performances also) is non-sensical. For me, finals and elimination games are the most important indicators of performance, followed by 4th quarter and OT performances. 1st and 2nd round performances, while important as a whole, just aren't as telling IMO.
Now I haven't done a really in depth look at this, but it just feels like LeBron has done considerably better in the finals and elimination games in his career vs what Kobe had done in his. But again, I haven't dived too deeply into it.
So it seems a lot of people focus on the 2008-2010 years, which is understandable. Kobe had some ridiculous performances during that stretch, especially considering he faced off against teams like Boston.
But his career stretched some 20 years, so to focus more so on a 3 year stretch (that include some poor performances also) is non-sensical. For me, finals and elimination games are the most important indicators of performance, followed by 4th quarter and OT performances. 1st and 2nd round performances, while important as a whole, just aren't as telling IMO.
Now I haven't done a really in depth look at this, but it just feels like LeBron has done considerably better in the finals and elimination games in his career vs what Kobe had done in his. But again, I haven't dived too deeply into it.
No, 13 year prime, simple as that, that's who we became fan of. Everyone else can have the longevity prize, we don't care. 13 prime years, 5/7 all defensive, all first team, all star, mvp, fmvps. Lebron has 3 rings in 18 prime seasons, that's a whole lot of excuses.
HoopsNY
05-15-2020, 11:30 AM
Forgot about 2007 & 2011 Finals already, Wheels?
This is true. A lot of LeBron fans give him a pass for his performance in 2007, which doesn't really make sense to me. Fans can't give him credit for his performance against Detroit, including the "48 point special", tout his maturity, and praise him getting to the finals in year 4, while simultaneously excusing him for one of the worst NBA finals performances for a GOAT level player in NBA history.
A lot of people don't recall, but 3 of the 4 games against San Antonio were close. And games 3 and 4 were decided by a total of 3 points. Lebron lost them that series. But for some reason, he is to be excused for that despite victories being within reach.
Also he was great in almost all his playoffs series, can't win em all.. right bron stans? But we don't have to pretend like he was only good from 08 to 10. In his 13 year prime.
This is true. A lot of LeBron fans give him a pass for his performance in 2007, which doesn't really make sense to me. Fans can't give him credit for his performance against Detroit, including the "48 point special", tout his maturity, and praise him getting to the finals in year 4, while simultaneously excusing him for one of the worst NBA finals performances for a GOAT level player in NBA history.
A lot of people don't recall, but 3 of the 4 games against San Antonio were close. And games 3 and 4 were decided by a total of 3 points. Lebron lost them that series. But for some reason, he is to be excused for that despite victories being within reach.
I mean that’s pre prime LeBron tbh.
CTbasketball92
05-15-2020, 12:22 PM
A LIITTTLLEEE BIT. Kobe's thing is that he was arguably never more impactful than DWade, Cp3, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Dirk, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan and more, but he played at a notch or half-notch below for like 10 years straight and had a skillset that was more portable and flexible and he was more durable than a lot of people in that top 25 range so that's kinda where his greatness was. He was generally as good in the playoffs as he was in the regular season.
Doranku
05-15-2020, 12:35 PM
What kind of teams do you think tend to make the finals? Look at the defensive rank of champs since 2010: 5th, 11th, 2nd, 10th, 1st, 3rd, 9th, 4th, 8th, 4th.
I mean, Curry has played in 5 finals and has only faced a top 9 defensive team once. :confusedshrug:
Let's look at Bran's competition: 2nd, 11th, 10th, 3rd, 3rd, 1st, 6th, 2nd, 11th. Bolded are the wins. Bran is 1-4 against top 5 defensive teams in the finals. I think if Kobe had 3 finals opponents that were 10th, 11th, and 11th in the league, his finals numbers would look closer to his playoff averages.
The worst defensive team Kobe played was the Pacers and that was when he was 21 years old and intentionally injured in the series. And still, he was able to produce an iconic moment in game 4 with Shaq on the bench.
A LIITTTLLEEE BIT. Kobe's thing is that he was arguably never more impactful than DWade, Cp3, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Dirk, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan and more, but he played at a notch or half-notch below for like 10 years straight and had a skillset that was more portable and flexible and he was more durable than a lot of people in that top 25 range so that's kinda where his greatness was. He was generally as good in the playoffs as he was in the regular season.
Kobe was significantly better offensively than Malone in the playoffs.
HoopsNY
05-15-2020, 12:53 PM
I mean that’s pre prime LeBron tbh.
He was a 27-7-6 player who was All-NBA 2nd team, all-star, and 5th in MVP voting. Was it his peak years? Certainly not, but LeBron has been in his prime since his 2nd year, I'd say.
The previous year in 2006 he averaged 31.5-6.5-7.0 and was All-NBA 1st team, all-star, and finished 2nd in MVP voting. So what was he doing, jumping in and out of his prime? lol
Whoah10115
05-15-2020, 12:53 PM
I mean, Curry has played in 5 finals and has only faced a top 9 defensive team once. :confusedshrug:
Let's look at Bran's competition: 2nd, 11th, 10th, 3rd, 3rd, 1st, 6th, 2nd, 11th. Bolded are the wins. Bran is 1-4 against top 5 defensive teams in the finals. I think if Kobe had 3 finals opponents that were 10th, 11th, and 11th in the league, his finals numbers would look closer to his playoff averages.
The worst defensive team Kobe played was the Pacers and that was when he was 21 years old and intentionally injured in the series. And still, he was able to produce an iconic moment in game 4 with Shaq on the bench.
The problem is that, even if I don't completely agree with anyone, too many LeBron stans (and this may just be because he's still active) want to follow a pretty rigid evaluation process, then ignore the point you've just made.
Couldn't we just argue about LeBron being better than Kobe? Instead, we get Kobe is overrated. In this case, to be fair, HoopsNY isn't trying to flame (tho the premise is actually ridiculous), but that's what we get everyday and that's what this thread is full of.
Just look at OP responding to his responses...logical, thoughtful. Not always in line with me (or right lol), but that's how you have discourse.
He was a 27-7-6 player who was All-NBA 2nd team, all-star, and 5th in MVP voting. Was it his peak years? Certainly not, but LeBron has been in his prime since his 2nd year, I'd say.
The previous year in 2006 he averaged 31.5-6.5-7.0 and was All-NBA 1st team, all-star, and finished 2nd in MVP voting. So what was he doing, jumping in and out of his prime? lol
Pretty noticeable difference in LeBron’s play in the playoffs after 2008.
HoopsNY
05-15-2020, 12:55 PM
The problem is that, even if I don't completely agree with anyone, too many LeBron stans (and this may just be because he's still active) want to follow a pretty rigid evaluation process, then ignore the point you've just made.
Couldn't we just argue about LeBron being better than Kobe? Instead, we get Kobe is overrated. In this case, to be fair, HoopsNY isn't trying to flame (tho the premise is actually ridiculous), but that's what we get everyday and that's what this thread is full of.
Just look at OP responding to his responses...logical, thoughtful. Not always in line with me (or right lol), but that's how you have discourse.
I appreciate that. I'm not a bad guy, really, lol.
HoopsNY
05-15-2020, 12:57 PM
Pretty noticeable difference in LeBron’s play in the playoffs after 2008.
That is true, which is why I mentioned peak years. By 2008-09, LeBron hit his peak years, but I don't think that detracts from him being in his prime by 2004-05. He was just that damn good. Some players hit the ground running, and he was one of them.
HoopsNY
05-15-2020, 01:00 PM
The problem is that, even if I don't completely agree with anyone, too many LeBron stans (and this may just be because he's still active) want to follow a pretty rigid evaluation process, then ignore the point you've just made.
Couldn't we just argue about LeBron being better than Kobe? Instead, we get Kobe is overrated. In this case, to be fair, HoopsNY isn't trying to flame (tho the premise is actually ridiculous), but that's what we get everyday and that's what this thread is full of.
Just look at OP responding to his responses...logical, thoughtful. Not always in line with me (or right lol), but that's how you have discourse.
I'm not sure the premise is ridiculous when we consider the entire body of work. However, I do admit I tend to weigh the finals, conference finals, elimination games, and 4th quarters, before I look at 1st and 2nd round performances. I do also admit that Kobe has faced some pretty tough defenses in the finals.
SouBeachTalents
05-15-2020, 01:01 PM
His performance in 08, 09 and 10 was all-time great. There's not many that can match that 3 years run. I believe only Lebron, MJ and Bird had done better.
Gonna mention 3 year runs of dominance and forget Shaq huh :oldlol: Hakeem belongs there, as I'm sure basically every other top 10 player does too
Whoah10115
05-15-2020, 01:13 PM
I'm not sure the premise is ridiculous when we consider the entire body of work. However, I do admit I tend to weigh the finals, conference finals, elimination games, and 4th quarters, before I look at 1st and 2nd round performances. I do also admit that Kobe has faced some pretty tough defenses in the finals.
Not only that, but not only do people make a mistake in holding Shaq against Kobe, they also make a mistake when evaluating him in that context. Whether or not he sucked at being the facilitator, that was -for fact- what he was asked to do. And even if one thinks he just ignored directions and did not facilitate (which would be nonsense), they can't even respect the factual point brought up by others.
Kobe missed his last playoff appearance because he tore his achilles, along with pretty much the next season and more than half of the one after. But in the 13 years that could constitute his prime, his team made 12 playoff appearances and he played in 11. And his numbers are high, in different roles, with different calibers of players. I think he was better than Shaq in 2001. Maybe Shaq had the edge in the Finals, tho I attribute much to those offensive fouls. But Kobe did a lot.
In 2002? I have Kobe over Shaq there. Stats for Shaq were incredible, and so was he, but I think Kobe ran it. To be fair, that was the weakest team they played. But Kobe gave Shaq a lot of easy buckets.
Will say that Kobe was not good in 2004 Finals, and that he specifically did a poor job of giving Shaq the ball. Shaq looked great in those Finals. Prior to it, he hadn't adjusted so well to the additions of Malone and Payton, but in the Finals he was terrific. Kobe did the opposite. He was their everything that year, but in the Finals he didn't play well.
In the first two playoff years post-Shaq, his team were pretty poor. And the Suns were the best team in the league over those two seasons (would have been the best in each had Amare been available).
But he dragged them to the Finals in 2008, and was great throughout the next two. In the 2010 Finals, how could he have been disappointing? Because of FG%?
And to be fair, despite how close the Cavs were in a couple games to the Spurs, I don't much hold the 07 Finals against LeBron. A little of it, sure, but he dragged them there and they were clearly outmatched. Doesn't mean he shouldn't have performed better, but I won't kill him for it. And it has nothing to do with prime or otherwise, as that's crazy and so are the people who claim that but kill Kobe for the 2000 Finals.
That is true, which is why I mentioned peak years. By 2008-09, LeBron hit his peak years, but I don't think that detracts from him being in his prime by 2004-05. He was just that damn good. Some players hit the ground running, and he was one of them.
So you think LeBron has been in his prime his entire career outside of his rookie season?
Whoah10115
05-15-2020, 01:15 PM
So you think LeBron has been in his prime his entire career outside of his rookie season?
You're not asking me, but I'd say from his 3rd season on...a general prime. Kinda like extending back to 87-88 with Malone.
Same logic applies to Kobe in 99-00..tho I suppose one could argue it really started in 00-01.
iamgine
05-15-2020, 01:24 PM
Gonna mention 3 year runs of dominance and forget Shaq huh :oldlol: Hakeem belongs there, as I'm sure basically every other top 10 player does too
Didn't forget Shaq or Hakeem. I'm don't think they had 3 year run better than Kobe. Maybe equal.
SouBeachTalents
05-15-2020, 01:26 PM
Didn't forget Shaq or Hakeem. I'm don't think they had 3 year run better than Kobe. Maybe equal.
Shaq didn't have a 3 year run better than Kobe
Jesus Christ :facepalm
tpols
05-15-2020, 01:27 PM
Didn't forget Shaq or Hakeem. I'm don't think they had 3 year run better than Kobe. Maybe equal.
'08 and '09 Kobe might be the GOAT.
'10 kobe put up 30/5/5 on one leg.
One of the most alpha moments in playoff history.
https://basketballunited.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/kobe_bryant_s_tump_tap_on_alvin_gentry.gif
burying a team in an elimination game, and slapping the opposing coach's ass while he calls a desperation timeout.
:roll:
iamgine
05-15-2020, 01:28 PM
Shaq didn't have a 3 year run better than Kobe
Jesus Christ :facepalm
He really didn't.
tpols
05-15-2020, 01:42 PM
Gonna mention 3 year runs of dominance and forget Shaq huh :oldlol: Hakeem belongs there, as I'm sure basically every other top 10 player does too
Hakeem?
His run was two years... and he was leading 40 something win teams.
Kobe's Lakers were 60 win teams '08-'10. They were juggernauts from the start. And you cant blame help. Clyde Drexler is > Pau by a decent amount, rest a wash.
And of course for Shaq's 3peat Kobe was >>> Pau.
Bean did more with less.
SouBeachTalents
05-15-2020, 01:57 PM
Hakeem?
His run was two years... and he was leading 40 something win teams.
Kobe's Lakers were 60 win teams '08-'10. They were juggernauts from the start. And you cant blame help. Clyde Drexler is > Pau by a decent amount, rest a wash.
And of course for Shaq's 3peat Kobe was >>> Pau.
Bean did more with less.
Hakeem played just as well in '93 as he did during the 2peat, averaging 26/14/5/2/5 on 52%. And that's not true at all, the Rockets won 55 & 58 games in '93 & '94, very comparable to what the Lakers did in '08 & '10, with obviously the big disparity being the '09 Lakers & '95 Rockets
Hakeem had Drexler for half a season, and he absolutely was not "> Pau by a decent amount", by '95 they were actually pretty comparable players
'94 & '95 Hakeem was undoubtedly better than Kobe ever was, as was 3peat Shaq. Do you REALLY dispute this bro :lol
Akeem34TheDream
05-15-2020, 02:28 PM
Hakeem?
His run was two years... and he was leading 40 something win teams.
Kobe's Lakers were 60 win teams '08-'10. They were juggernauts from the start. And you cant blame help. Clyde Drexler is > Pau by a decent amount, rest a wash.
And of course for Shaq's 3peat Kobe was >>> Pau.
Bean did more with less.
How about '94? Is Pau also worse than Vernon Maxwell? :oldlol:
Akeem34TheDream
05-15-2020, 02:31 PM
'94 is the goat carryjob. Only one close is '03.
tpols
05-15-2020, 02:43 PM
How about '94? Is Pau also worse than Vernon Maxwell? :oldlol:
Ewing's 2nd option was John Starks.
so relative to his competition, maxwell was nice.
I watched the houston documentaries. Maxwell went off, and especially clyde... Clyde was just a monster in '95 playoffs.
He was a former MVP candidate turned 2nd option. Pau never even made an all NBA team before LA.
ArbitraryWater
05-15-2020, 02:45 PM
He really didn't.
Are you aware of Shaq's three-peat?
SouBeachTalents
05-15-2020, 02:50 PM
Are you aware of Shaq's three-peat?
That's the same guy who said he's never watched Jokic and that he was bad in the clutch (despite his several game winners) Then earlier this week he said Jokic was a top 10 center of all time. He doesn't seem to really know what he's talking about. These posts only further emphasize that point
StrongLurk
05-15-2020, 02:52 PM
In the finals, absolutely. Other rounds? No he was not overrated. In fact, Kobe often had excellent WCF series...he would just be noticeably worse in the finals for whatever reasons.
ArbitraryWater
05-15-2020, 02:55 PM
In the finals, absolutely. Other rounds? No he was not overrated. In fact, Kobe often had excellent WCF series...he would just be noticeably worse in the finals for whatever reasons.
overrated relative to what? do you think he's a top 15 all time playoffs performer?
then you're overrating him
the man didnt live up to his marketing every single year but 01, 06, 08-10
SouBeachTalents
05-15-2020, 03:03 PM
overrated relative to what? do you think he's a top 15 all time playoffs performer?
then you're overrating him
the man didnt live up to his marketing every single year but 01, 06, 08-10
You really think there's 15 better playoff performers than him? Let's say I spot you the usual top 10, who else are you putting ahead of Kobe as a playoff performer?
tpols
05-15-2020, 03:04 PM
Hakeem had Drexler for half a season, and he absolutely was not "> Pau by a decent amount", by '95 they were actually pretty comparable players
So did Kobe in '08. Except Pau was ass in the playoffs.
They were'nt comparable. Clyde got MVP shares every single year from '88 to '95.
Pau has never gotten a single share in his entire career. ditto all NBA teams.
Hakeem played just as well in '93 as he did during the 2peat, averaging 26/14/5/2/5 on 52%. And that's not true at all, the Rockets won 55 & 58 games in '93 & '94, very comparable to what the Lakers did in '08 & '10, with obviously the big disparity being the '09 Lakers & '95 Rockets
Hakeem had Drexler for half a season, and he absolutely was not "> Pau by a decent amount", by '95 they were actually pretty comparable players
'94 & '95 Hakeem was undoubtedly better than Kobe ever was, as was 3peat Shaq. Do you REALLY dispute this bro :lol
You’re arguing with someone who said Giannis Antetokounmpo is bad at basketball.
ArbitraryWater
05-15-2020, 03:14 PM
You really think there's 15 better playoff performers than him? Let's say I spot you the usual top 10, who else are you putting ahead of Kobe as a playoff performer?
Dirk, KD, Curry, Jerry West...
then you got guys like Chuck and Karl who produced more too, its just a matter of how much emphasis you put on circumstantial factors really.
Whoah10115
05-15-2020, 03:18 PM
Hakeem played just as well in '93 as he did during the 2peat, averaging 26/14/5/2/5 on 52%. And that's not true at all, the Rockets won 55 & 58 games in '93 & '94, very comparable to what the Lakers did in '08 & '10, with obviously the big disparity being the '09 Lakers & '95 Rockets
Hakeem had Drexler for half a season, and he absolutely was not "> Pau by a decent amount", by '95 they were actually pretty comparable players
'94 & '95 Hakeem was undoubtedly better than Kobe ever was, as was 3peat Shaq. Do you REALLY dispute this bro :lol
Personally, I do. Hakeem is more arguable, but despite how dominant Shaq was, in 2001 a lot of people were calling Kobe the best player.
And to be clear, not most people. But also, not merely dumbass people. It's hard to go totally against Shaq on his tendency to offensive foul to the point of rendering defenses impossible, because you'd have to think he'd have adapted a lot...but there's some adapting that can't really equate to what he got away with.
Was the league in 99-02 than in 07-10? Don't think so. Did Kobe have the cast behind him that Shaq had? Don't think so.
He had a singular run, in context, but he wasn't better than Bryant.
Also Hakeem is better than Shaq.
Dirk, KD, Curry, Jerry West...
then you got guys like Chuck and Karl who produced more too, its just a matter of how much emphasis you put on circumstantial factors really.
Karl Malone over Kobe in the playoffs :roll: :roll: :roll:
Dude shot like shit in the playoffs.
SouBeachTalents
05-15-2020, 03:26 PM
If we're saying Kobe was better in the playoffs than peak Shaq & Hakeem, I change my mind, Kobe was an overrated playoff performer
Akeem34TheDream
05-15-2020, 03:27 PM
Dirk, KD, Curry, Jerry West...
then you got guys like Chuck and Karl who produced more too, its just a matter of how much emphasis you put on circumstantial factors really.
Guys like you are the reason guys like tpols exist.
Whoah10115
05-15-2020, 03:28 PM
If we're saying Kobe was better in the playoffs than than peak Shaq & Hakeem, I change my vote, Kobe was an overrated playoff performer
That's not what he asked.
That's me telling you Kobe is better than Shaq...cuz he Be (just realized "Be" so changed it).
PoutinPippin
05-15-2020, 03:30 PM
No he was an amazing playoff performer.
Especially if you discount his clear side kick or severe back seat years where he wasn’t the primary reason for getting past 50 win teams etc IE 1997 - 2000. That’s 4 seasons.
He struggled in the Finals, primarily because he isn’t as good as Jordan, Iverson, Wade, LeBron at dealing with physicality. Had slight short comings athletically, primarily quickness, strength and leaping ability like those when dealing with it.
And because Kobe was jump shot happy, when you get the combination of physicality, length to contest jumpers and not someone who constantly wants to attack the teeth of the defense of penetration or finishing at the rim. You’re going to struggle.
The West has always been finesse. The Beast East has always been a grind it out, physical contest.
tpols
05-15-2020, 03:31 PM
Personally, I do. Hakeem is more arguable, but despite how dominant Shaq was, in 2001 a lot of people were calling Kobe the best player.
Shaq said it himself.
young Kobe... in the playoffs, was literally an equal to PEAK Shaq. Out of Shaq's own mouth.
so the idea that a late prime veteran more composed Kobe couldnt be even better... well, it wouldnt make much sense.
Turbo Slayer
05-15-2020, 03:40 PM
Ehhh... at the end of the day they are both great players. Kobe and LeBron are both great. You can't go wrong with either of them. I always see one side bashing the other.
ImKobe
05-15-2020, 04:11 PM
Karl Malone over Kobe in the playoffs :roll: :roll: :roll:
Dude shot like shit in the playoffs.
You know it's bad when RRR3 is calling you out on anti-Kobe stuff.
Bet you that retard only looks at FG% to determine who did better in the POs, bet that idiot has no idea that Chuck blew a 3 - 1 series lead as a contender.
LostCause
05-15-2020, 04:16 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5i3UexwTYg
You know it's bad when RRR3 is calling you out on anti-Kobe stuff.
Bet you that retard only looks at FG% to determine who did better in the POs, bet that idiot has no idea that Chuck blew a 3 - 1 series lead as a contender.
I don't really hate on Kobe himself on ISH. Certainly not since he died, it's not fun without him being alive and just makes me feel bad. Definitely have hated on him on here in the past though. But Arby is just an idiot.
Malone in the playoffs: 32.6 points per 100 possessions on 52.6 TS%, 3.6 OBPM
Kobe in the playoffs: 34.7 points per 100 possessions on 54.1 TS%, 5.0 OBPM
Clear edge to Kobe. Malone really fell off in the playoffs. I think he would have a case over Kobe and for top 10 all time if he had maintained his regular season play in the playoffs, but the fact is he didn't, and Kobe did.
ImKobe
05-15-2020, 04:19 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5i3UexwTYg
More people need to see this. Kobe's off-ball game is HEAVILY underrated.
Malone had back to back playoff runs (of 18 and 20 games too, so not a case of small sample size) of 49.8 TS% and 50.1 TS% in 96 and 97 :lol This is as a big man who didn't shoot 3s.
Better than Kobe doeeeee
Doranku
05-15-2020, 04:27 PM
Dirk, KD, Curry, Jerry West...
then you got guys like Chuck and Karl who produced more too, its just a matter of how much emphasis you put on circumstantial factors really.
Imagine if Kobe had these kind of black marks on his career:
-1 ring, lost as 1 seed to an 8 seed during MVP season
-Couldn't win with multiple MVP winners, choked a 3-1 lead away against a 73 team, then turned around and joined that team the next season to finally win a championship
-Blew a 3-1 in the finals as unanimous MVP, zero FMVPs in 5 appearances
-1-9 record in the finals
Kobe's biggest black marks don't even come close: losing in the finals to arguably the GOAT defensive team in '04, blowing a 3-1 lead in the first round to a 2 seed as the 7 seed, swept in the second round by the eventual champions after winning b2b rings, blown out by 36 in a road elimination game in the '08 finals
You could find 4 similar occurrences for every all-time great. Dude is just held to a different standard on this message board.
It's the same thing with the Shaq 3 years vs Kobe 3 years argument. I do agree that Shaq's was more impressive, but it's close. Why isn't the fact that Shaq had Kobe ever held against him, like it is vice-versa? How many second options in history had a better run than '01 Kobe? Like...
'13 peak, MVP Bron in the playoffs: 26/8/7 on 49% shooting
'01 Kobe in the playoffs: 29/7/6 on 47% shooting
So we're not gonna hear about Shaq having that kind of help during the 3peat, but when people bring up Kobe's 08-10 gauntlet, we have to hear about Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum. It's just hilarious to see the logical inconsistencies Kobe haters will rationalize during these arguments.
As long as I'm shitting on Malone (he deserves it if you know anything about his personal life), dude once went 2-20 in a playoff game :roll: With zero assists too :lol Coincidentally, he was playing against Kobe, although Bean was still coming off the bench at that point and not in his prime yet. Still, Kobe had 19 off the bench in 19 minutes on only 7 shots.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199705080LAL.html
tpols
05-15-2020, 04:45 PM
As long as I'm shitting on Malone (he deserves it if you know anything about his personal life), dude once went 2-20 in a playoff game :roll: With zero assists too :lol Coincidentally, he was playing against Kobe, although Bean was still coming off the bench at that point and not in his prime yet. Still, Kobe had 19 off the bench in 19 minutes on only 7 shots.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199705080LAL.html
How are you a Lebron fan?
He's literally the dribblin version of karl lol.
Turbo Slayer
05-15-2020, 05:14 PM
5 year prime in the Playoffs
Kobe Bryant (2005-06 to 2009-10)
24.9 PER TS% .570 OWS 9.4 DWS 3.2 WS 12.6 WS/48 .186 OBPM 6.3 DBPM 0.9 BPM: 7.2 VORP: 7.6
Karl Malone (1990-91 to 1994-95)
23.4 PER TS% .559 OWS 5.3 DWS 3.0 WS 8.3 WS/48 .182 OBPM 4.8 DBPM 0.7 BPM: 5.5 VORP: 4.2
Conclusion: Comparing both players to regular season, Kobe Bryant consistently steps up in the Playoffs compared to Karl Malone who faces a steep drop off from RS production which disappoints me...
How are you a Lebron fan?
He's literally the dribblin version of karl lol.
:facepalm
Not even worth responding to. You're a bad troll.
Turbo Slayer
05-15-2020, 05:24 PM
Who led better offenses in their 5 year spans? Well, Kobe Bryant.
Average rORtg
Kobe- +3.1 rORtg
Malone- +2.9 rORtg
Notes: Granted, Malone peaked higher than Kobe but consistency is more important. Kobe has consistently led better offenses than Malone.
Turbo Slayer
05-15-2020, 05:37 PM
How are you a Lebron fan?
He's literally the dribblin version of karl lol. Dude STFU.
Are you comparing Malone to LeBron?
For one, LeBron was a greater passer and had greater ball control than Malone.
Assist-to-turnover ratio
Malone: 1.16
LeBron: 2.11
WhiteKyrie
05-15-2020, 05:42 PM
Kobe playoffs from 2000 - 2012
27.7 PPG, 5.4 RPG, 5.1 APG, 1.5 SPG on 45%
This is underperforming? You've got to be kidding me. Only two dudes undoubtedly that out performed him, is as follows.
LeBron playoffs from 2006 - 2018
28.9 PPG, 8.9 RPG, 7.1 APG, 1.8 SPG on 49%
Jordan playoffs from 1985 - 1998, the GREATEST player of all time:
33.4 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 5.7 APG, 2.1 SPG on 48%
Needless to say, Kobe is in some extremely good company. The only definitive better playoff performers than him, that I can think of off the top of the dome:
1) Jordan
2) LeBron
3) Hakeem
You could MAYBE make the case for Magic, and Shaq. Kobe is probably number 4th for me due to longevity. Then Magic, then Shaq. Depending on your basketball sensibilities Magic could be better, or Shaq, and possibly even Bird. But at most that's it. Jerry West following these guys up.
I remember that postseason game against the suns from 10 years ago where metta world peace saved the day with his buzzer beater
DoctorP
05-15-2020, 10:27 PM
I get why people love Kobe Bryant, and they should. He was a phenomenal athlete with a superior work ethnic, and a lot of accomplishments.
Having said that, should he be glorified the way he is for his playoff performances? I watched him his entire career and saw him play horribly in a number of playoff series. What is also often ignored is a player's performances in elimination games. Kobe has a number of underwhelming performances in playoff, finals, and elimination games.
What are other people's thoughts?
The answer is yes.
ArbitraryWater
05-16-2020, 06:41 AM
Imagine if Kobe had these kind of black marks on his career:
-1 ring, lost as 1 seed to an 8 seed during MVP season
-Couldn't win with multiple MVP winners, choked a 3-1 lead away against a 73 team, then turned around and joined that team the next season to finally win a championship
-Blew a 3-1 in the finals as unanimous MVP, zero FMVPs in 5 appearances
-1-9 record in the finals
Kobe's biggest black marks don't even come close: losing in the finals to arguably the GOAT defensive team in '04, blowing a 3-1 lead in the first round to a 2 seed as the 7 seed, swept in the second round by the eventual champions after winning b2b rings, blown out by 36 in a road elimination game in the '08 finals
You could find 4 similar occurrences for every all-time great. Dude is just held to a different standard on this message board.
It's the same thing with the Shaq 3 years vs Kobe 3 years argument. I do agree that Shaq's was more impressive, but it's close. Why isn't the fact that Shaq had Kobe ever held against him, like it is vice-versa? How many second options in history had a better run than '01 Kobe? Like...
'13 peak, MVP Bron in the playoffs: 26/8/7 on 49% shooting
'01 Kobe in the playoffs: 29/7/6 on 47% shooting
So we're not gonna hear about Shaq having that kind of help during the 3peat, but when people bring up Kobe's 08-10 gauntlet, we have to hear about Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum. It's just hilarious to see the logical inconsistencies Kobe haters will rationalize during these arguments.
He didn't, because for all but 2 post-seasons he had the best supporting cast in the NBA.
So even if he played at such low levels, his cast and the circumstance he was in did not allow it to turn to a loss.
The biggest and most obvious incident of this is: 6/24 in game 7 of the NBA finals, a bigger black mark than every one you mentioned had Gasol not cleared the offensive boards.
And even with having had such talented teams around him consistently, he did a good job of piling up weak outings, getting blown off the court in a handful of elimination games (04, 06, 08, 11).
And when he was the underdog, he stayed the underdog, and wasn't able to achieve anything out of the ordinary, anything one may have not expected. Even when the '06 Suns were without Stoudemire, and Kobe's sidekick matched their sidekick.
We hear about Pau and Odom (obviously historically weak-ish support) because that was the best help any top 5 player had at the time. Its like the heavens conspired to find a commercial break period where Kobe could snatch a couple more rings as only top 5 player who had all-star support.
But in the end he played well and did his part, those years. However he wasn't any better than LeBron or Wade or Dirk.
ArbitraryWater
05-16-2020, 06:44 AM
Karl Malone over Kobe in the playoffs :roll: :roll: :roll:
Dude shot like shit in the playoffs.
:facepalm
If you use such a derogatory term, shouldn't it be applied relatively? Kobe shot worse, so you'd be stupid to use the lower efficiency against Karl.
PeteVecseySwag
05-16-2020, 07:25 AM
He didn't, because for all but 2 post-seasons he had the best supporting cast in the NBA.
Sounds like LeBron but not just two seasons, more like 5 seasons.
ImKobe
05-16-2020, 07:29 AM
:facepalm
If you use such a derogatory term, shouldn't it be applied relatively? Kobe shot worse, so you'd be stupid to use the lower efficiency against Karl.
He averages less points (despite playing 2 more minutes per game) on worse shooting (24.7 ppg 52.6%TS, he was worse in the Playoffs). Malone lost 9 times in the first round, despite the Jazz winning 50+ games almost every single year since his 4th season. The amount of times that guy lost as a favorite/underperformed in a series.. you're clueless as ****.
ArbitraryWater
05-16-2020, 07:34 AM
He averages less points (despite playing 2 more minutes per game) on worse shooting (24.7 ppg 52.6%TS, he was worse in the Playoffs). Malone lost 9 times in the first round, despite the Jazz winning 50+ games almost every single year since his 4th season. The amount of times that guy lost as a favorite/underperformed in a series.. you're clueless as ****.
You're an idiot comparing their career stats which distorts their prime spans. You are basically discrediting Karl for making the playoffs for a longer period of time, it'd be like if Kobe made them 2014-16, his stats would be worse too.
Of course you conveniently ignore context when it doesnt suit Kobe God Bryant.
From 1988-2001 Malone averaged 27/11/3 on 47% FG/eFG, 154 games across 14 years
From 2000-2012 Bryant averaged 28/5/5 on 45% FG/48% eFG, 192 games across 12 years
Nothing to give here.
They went wildly different about how they acquired their points, but thats irrelevant.
I don't care about your subjective lost as favorite remarks when Karl performed to the same level if not better than Kobe did during those series'.
You figure how that adds up.
It could be that 9 different players had a say in the matter. But you will NEVER be that transparent.
Smoke117
05-16-2020, 07:37 AM
He averages less points (despite playing 2 more minutes per game) on worse shooting (24.7 ppg 52.6%TS, he was worse in the Playoffs). Malone lost 9 times in the first round, despite the Jazz winning 50+ games almost every single year since his 4th season. The amount of times that guy lost as a favorite/underperformed in a series.. you're clueless as ****.
It’s really amusing how ImKobe gets all in to what he’s saying and expects to be taken seriously...because we should all take a fanboy who proudly displays the player he stans seriously...that’s all beside the point that the clown has been blatantly and boringly trolling the last 2 years anyway. You’re a joke on the board now, sweetheart.
ImKobe
05-16-2020, 07:51 AM
You're an idiot comparing their career stats which distorts their prime spans. You are basically discrediting Karl for making the playoffs for a longer period of time, it'd be like if Kobe made them 2014-16, his stats would be worse too.
Of course you conveniently ignore context when it doesnt suit Kobe God Bryant.
From 1988-2001 Malone averaged 27/11/3 on 47% FG/eFG, 154 games across 14 years
From 2000-2012 Bryant averaged 28/5/5 on 45% FG/48% eFG, 192 games across 12 years
Nothing to give here.
They went wildly different about how they acquired their points, but thats irrelevant.
Funny how you just gloss over the FT shooting
Let me help you out here
Kobe 00-12: 28/6/5, 54.3%TS /82%FT
Malone 88-2001: 27/11/3, 53.2%TS/ 74.7%FT
Malone also lost in the first round 5 times and only made two Finals to Kobe's 7 in that time span. Malone's best Finals run was 26/11/3 on 53.4%TS to Kobe's 30/6/6 on 57.7%TS. 22 y.o Kobe had a better Playoff run (29/7/6 on 55%TS) than any of Malone's. It's not even close really. Kobe was also a better defensive player and actually ran the offense, instead of being spoonfed by one of the greatest passers in league history.
You're saying a guy who had two mediocre Finals runs (26 ppg on 50.1% and 53.4%TS) is a better Playoff performer than a 5x Champion who made 7 Finals and had better numbers in his prime?
ArbitraryWater
05-16-2020, 11:42 AM
Funny how you just gloss over the FT shooting
Let me help you out here
Kobe 00-12: 28/6/5, 54.3%TS /82%FT
Malone 88-2001: 27/11/3, 53.2%TS/ 74.7%FT
Malone also lost in the first round 5 times and only made two Finals to Kobe's 7 in that time span. Malone's best Finals run was 26/11/3 on 53.4%TS to Kobe's 30/6/6 on 57.7%TS. 22 y.o Kobe had a better Playoff run (29/7/6 on 55%TS) than any of Malone's. It's not even close really. Kobe was also a better defensive player and actually ran the offense, instead of being spoonfed by one of the greatest passers in league history.
You're saying a guy who had two mediocre Finals runs (26 ppg on 50.1% and 53.4%TS) is a better Playoff performer than a 5x Champion who made 7 Finals and had better numbers in his prime?
You literally have to make up stats for Kobe. How 5.4 rounds to 6 I don't know.
Yeah sure, convince yourself Kobe was a much more efficient scorer because he hit his FT's 7% better (6.4/7.8 to 7.4/9.9).
This is the world you live in. It cannot be helped.
If you want to believe it isnt close, then yes, you will continue having to spam 7 finals vs 2.
Every other sensible thinking applied, will only lead you to a close call.
Doranku
05-16-2020, 11:47 AM
He didn't, because for all but 2 post-seasons he had the best supporting cast in the NBA.
So even if he played at such low levels, his cast and the circumstance he was in did not allow it to turn to a loss.
The biggest and most obvious incident of this is: 6/24 in game 7 of the NBA finals, a bigger black mark than every one you mentioned had Gasol not cleared the offensive boards.
And even with having had such talented teams around him consistently, he did a good job of piling up weak outings, getting blown off the court in a handful of elimination games (04, 06, 08, 11).
And when he was the underdog, he stayed the underdog, and wasn't able to achieve anything out of the ordinary, anything one may have not expected. Even when the '06 Suns were without Stoudemire, and Kobe's sidekick matched their sidekick.
We hear about Pau and Odom (obviously historically weak-ish support) because that was the best help any top 5 player had at the time. Its like the heavens conspired to find a commercial break period where Kobe could snatch a couple more rings as only top 5 player who had all-star support.
But in the end he played well and did his part, those years. However he wasn't any better than LeBron or Wade or Dirk.
lol, shooting poorly in a game 7 and winning a championship is worse than losing in your MVP year as the 1 seed to an 8 seed? I know you'll never be objective about Kobe, but come on. :oldlol:
This whole Gasol game 7 narrative also needs to stop. Dude scored 18 points and shot 6-16 from the field as a 7 footer. Missed 6 free throws. Had THREE more rebounds than Kobe. After game 2, Gasol shot below 50% in every single game. As a 7 footer who didn't shoot 3s and primarily did his damage on the block. And people want to say he deserved FMVP over Kobe. :lol What a joke.
ArbitraryWater
05-16-2020, 12:00 PM
lol, shooting poorly in a game 7 and winning a championship is worse than losing in your MVP year as the 1 seed to an 8 seed? I know you'll never be objective about Kobe, but come on. :oldlol:
This whole Gasol game 7 narrative also needs to stop. Dude scored 18 points and shot 6-16 from the field as a 7 footer. Missed 6 free throws. Had THREE more rebounds than Kobe. After game 2, Gasol shot below 50% in every single game. As a 7 footer who didn't shoot 3s and primarily did his damage on the block. And people want to say he deserved FMVP over Kobe. :lol What a joke.
Hell fcking yeah.
Kobe under any normal set of circumstances threw away a championship in a Game 7 of the NBA finals.
It does not get any more meaningful than that.
Maybe if you could read, then you would have been able to tell that I mentioned Gasol's OFFENSIVE rebounds.
The whole game was obviously a low shooting affair.
The difference was Perk gone and Gasol grabbing NINE offensive rebounds.
Narrative my ass.
The game was purely decided on those NINE huge extra possessions, with Perkins gone.
Its not a coincidence that with Perkins out, the Lakers won the rebounding battle by the biggest margins in games 6-7.
Its stuff like that which allowed Kobe to sneak away while performing one of the biggest chokes ever.
Dirk losing as 1st seed is bad, but it more so exposed the fact his cast wasnt good enough to bail out his off games. He had a weak game 1 and 6 and that was it for them. Inbetween that he was good. But he hid an injury to end the regular season.
If Kobe would have had Dirk's support of that year, he too would have been goners in 2010.
Heck he might have just been if it hadnt been for another one of those Gasol offensive rebounds/putbacks.
Re-writing history... now it'd be a joke if Gasol had won FMVP.
The ignorance and lack of gratefulness is just appaling. Kobe stan 101.
Go live in your five rangz world bre. Everything is much nicer and more comfortable there, without looking at the details to those ringz.
You literally have to make up stats for Kobe. How 5.4 rounds to 6 I don't know.
Yeah sure, convince yourself Kobe was a much more efficient scorer because he hit his FT's 7% better (6.4/7.8 to 7.4/9.9).
This is the world you live in. It cannot be helped.
If you want to believe it isnt close, then yes, you will continue having to spam 7 finals vs 2.
Every other sensible thinking applied, will only lead you to a close call.
Kobe WAS more efficient than Malone in the playoffs. He’s not making that up, it’s just a fact.
ArbitraryWater
05-16-2020, 12:49 PM
Kobe WAS more efficient than Malone in the playoffs. He’s not making that up, it’s just a fact.
Here comes the guy who said Karl couldnt be better than Kobe cause he shot like shit, when he still shot better than Kobe.
You're an idiot dude.
Now you're throwing out "facts" on statements dependant on the measuring stick you choose to use.
Go hop on to the next discussion you can find.
You're incapable of creating a talking point yourself.
Rysio
05-16-2020, 01:18 PM
Here comes the guy who said Karl couldnt be better than Kobe cause he shot like shit, when he still shot better than Kobe.
You're an idiot dude.
Now you're throwing out "facts" on statements dependant on the measuring stick you choose to use.
Go hop on to the next discussion you can find.
You're incapable of creating a talking point yourself.
Malone 88-01 27 PPG on .467 efg
Kobe 01-12 29 PPG on .484 efg
SouBeachTalents
05-16-2020, 03:58 PM
Dirk, KD, Curry, Jerry West...
then you got guys like Chuck and Karl who produced more too, its just a matter of how much emphasis you put on circumstantial factors really.
West I actually do think is probably top 10 all time, so I wouldn't disagree with you on that.
KD & Curry are both more efficient, but I know you don't put much, if any value on their rings together, so I'm not sure what your argument would be to definitively rank them both ahead. I know for sure you wouldn't put them ahead of Kobe after 2016.
And even if you discount rings, Kobe has better numbers across the board both per game & in advanced metrics than Malone, so I don't see Malone's argument over Kobe in any capacity.
Dirk & Barkley admittedly both have slightly better advanced metrics, while Kobe's statistical output is better than Dirk's & roughly on par with Barkley's, so while I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you ranking them ahead of Kobe, there's also nothing that definitively places them ahead of Kobe either.
Here comes the guy who said Karl couldnt be better than Kobe cause he shot like shit, when he still shot better than Kobe.
You're an idiot dude.
Now you're throwing out "facts" on statements dependant on the measuring stick you choose to use.
Go hop on to the next discussion you can find.
You're incapable of creating a talking point yourself.
He did shoot like shit. 52.6 TS% for a big isn't good. Kobe was FACTUALLY more efficient. His FG% was only lower because he took 3s and Malone didn't.
Playoff 2P%
Kobe: 47.6%
Malone: 46.6%
Are you incapable of realizing how taking 3s decreases your overall FG% unless you're as good or better at 3s as you are at 2s?
Doranku
05-16-2020, 05:44 PM
Hell fcking yeah.
Kobe under any normal set of circumstances threw away a championship in a Game 7 of the NBA finals.
It does not get any more meaningful than that.
Maybe if you could read, then you would have been able to tell that I mentioned Gasol's OFFENSIVE rebounds.
The whole game was obviously a low shooting affair.
The difference was Perk gone and Gasol grabbing NINE offensive rebounds.
Narrative my ass.
The game was purely decided on those NINE huge extra possessions, with Perkins gone.
Its not a coincidence that with Perkins out, the Lakers won the rebounding battle by the biggest margins in games 6-7.
Its stuff like that which allowed Kobe to sneak away while performing one of the biggest chokes ever.
Dirk losing as 1st seed is bad, but it more so exposed the fact his cast wasnt good enough to bail out his off games. He had a weak game 1 and 6 and that was it for them. Inbetween that he was good. But he hid an injury to end the regular season.
If Kobe would have had Dirk's support of that year, he too would have been goners in 2010.
Heck he might have just been if it hadnt been for another one of those Gasol offensive rebounds/putbacks.
Re-writing history... now it'd be a joke if Gasol had won FMVP.
The ignorance and lack of gratefulness is just appaling. Kobe stan 101.
Go live in your five rangz world bre. Everything is much nicer and more comfortable there, without looking at the details to those ringz.
You are a complete moron.
lmao @ the ignorance of saying "The game was purely decided on those NINE huge extra possessions". No, game 6 2013 finals was PURELY decided on Ray Allen hitting a legacy saving 3 for Bran's ass after he played like dogshit for the first 5 1/2 games of the series. Or in game 7 2016 finals when Kyrie hit the three that broke the tie with under a minute left after neither team scored for 5 minutes.
You can't pinpoint a bunch of rebounds in the first quarter and claim those are what solely won a basketball game. Kobe scored 10 points in the 4th quarter. He found a way to get it done when it mattered most.
Explain to me how Kobe's 2010 finals is any different than Duncan in 2005. Duncan shot 10-27 in game 7 and scored 25 points. Manu had 23/5/4 on 8-13 shooting. Duncan took more than TWICE the amount of shots and scored two more points. Is this a huge black mark on Duncan's career?? Manu has a better argument for 2005 FMVP than Pau does for the 2010 FMVP. Yet no one ever talks about it. Know why?
Because Kobe is simply held to different standards.
tpols
05-16-2020, 06:01 PM
You are a complete moron.
lmao @ the ignorance of saying "The game was purely decided on those NINE huge extra possessions". No, game 6 2013 finals was PURELY decided on Ray Allen hitting a legacy saving 3 for Bran's ass after he played like dogshit for the first 5 1/2 games of the series. Or in game 7 2016 finals when Kyrie hit the three that broke the tie with under a minute left after neither team scored for 5 minutes.
You can't pinpoint a bunch of rebounds in the first quarter and claim those are what solely won a basketball game. Kobe scored 10 points in the 4th quarter. He found a way to get it done when it mattered most.
Explain to me how Kobe's 2010 finals is any different than Duncan in 2005. Duncan shot 10-27 in game 7 and scored 25 points. Manu had 23/5/4 on 8-13 shooting. Duncan took more than TWICE the amount of shots and scored two more points. Is this a huge black mark on Duncan's career?? Manu has a better argument for 2005 FMVP than Pau does for the 2010 FMVP. Yet no one ever talks about it. Know why?
Because Kobe is simply held to different standards.
If you look at the numbers Kobe was the only one to average above 18 ppg for the epic Lakers Celtics series.
Garnett, Pierce, Ray, and Pau averaged ~16 ppg.
That's 4 HOF'ers.
Kobe did 30.
Game. Set. Match.
West I actually do think is probably top 10 all time, so I wouldn't disagree with you on that.
KD & Curry are both more efficient, but I know you don't put much, if any value on their rings together, so I'm not sure what your argument would be to definitively rank them both ahead. I know for sure you wouldn't put them ahead of Kobe after 2016.
And even if you discount rings, Kobe has better numbers across the board both per game & in advanced metrics than Malone, so I don't see Malone's argument over Kobe in any capacity.
Dirk & Barkley admittedly both have slightly better advanced metrics, while Kobe's statistical output is better than Dirk's & roughly on par with Barkley's, so while I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you ranking them ahead of Kobe, there's also nothing that definitively places them ahead of Kobe either.
Who are you kicking out of the top 11 for West?
MJ
LeBron
KAJ
Wilt
Shaq
Magic
Hakeem
Duncan
Russell
Bird
Kobe
Whoah10115
05-16-2020, 11:05 PM
You are a complete moron.
lmao @ the ignorance of saying "The game was purely decided on those NINE huge extra possessions". No, game 6 2013 finals was PURELY decided on Ray Allen hitting a legacy saving 3 for Bran's ass after he played like dogshit for the first 5 1/2 games of the series. Or in game 7 2016 finals when Kyrie hit the three that broke the tie with under a minute left after neither team scored for 5 minutes.
You can't pinpoint a bunch of rebounds in the first quarter and claim those are what solely won a basketball game. Kobe scored 10 points in the 4th quarter. He found a way to get it done when it mattered most.
Explain to me how Kobe's 2010 finals is any different than Duncan in 2005. Duncan shot 10-27 in game 7 and scored 25 points. Manu had 23/5/4 on 8-13 shooting. Duncan took more than TWICE the amount of shots and scored two more points. Is this a huge black mark on Duncan's career?? Manu has a better argument for 2005 FMVP than Pau does for the 2010 FMVP. Yet no one ever talks about it. Know why?
Because Kobe is simply held to different standards.
To be fair, Duncan is given a pass a lot. Duncan isn't overrated, but it's funny when people say that he's UNDERRATED.
Manu was the FMVP in 2005. But Duncan was Duncan and got it. Manu made them tick.
Duncan21formvp
05-17-2020, 12:34 AM
No, Kobe would beat me in the playoffs while I would smash Lebron in them.
Whoah10115
05-17-2020, 01:05 PM
No, Kobe would beat me in the playoffs while I would smash Lebron in them.
I respect your humility, Timmy...it's always been one of your virtues.
2005 was Manu's FMVP tho..and Parker was the rightful winner in 2007.
ArbitraryWater
05-17-2020, 01:11 PM
You are a complete moron.
lmao @ the ignorance of saying "The game was purely decided on those NINE huge extra possessions". No, game 6 2013 finals was PURELY decided on Ray Allen hitting a legacy saving 3 for Bran's ass after he played like dogshit for the first 5 1/2 games of the series. Or in game 7 2016 finals when Kyrie hit the three that broke the tie with under a minute left after neither team scored for 5 minutes.
You can't pinpoint a bunch of rebounds in the first quarter and claim those are what solely won a basketball game. Kobe scored 10 points in the 4th quarter. He found a way to get it done when it mattered most.
Explain to me how Kobe's 2010 finals is any different than Duncan in 2005. Duncan shot 10-27 in game 7 and scored 25 points. Manu had 23/5/4 on 8-13 shooting. Duncan took more than TWICE the amount of shots and scored two more points. Is this a huge black mark on Duncan's career?? Manu has a better argument for 2005 FMVP than Pau does for the 2010 FMVP. Yet no one ever talks about it. Know why?
Because Kobe is simply held to different standards.
You must entirely lack logic.
A game going down to the wire of a 1-2 possession game with everyone shooting like shit (and Kobe the most), is absolutely decided by the NINE offensive rebounds grabbed.
Seems like the reality of Kobe getting bailed out doesn't sit well with you, but you should get used to it, it happened repeatedly. At this point, accept it.
Meanwhile the game in which 103 points were scored by a team, was purely decided by one 3. Everything leading up to that, played no part.
You're not a foreigner right? You have absolutely no grasp of what these words mean.
Found a way haha, yeah, got "it done" by scoring 10 points while using up 8 possessions, including fraudulent free throws.
Damn that boy got it done.
You probably also think he did a great job defensively. "He locked Rondo down!"
We have literally discussed Duncan's horrific series here in the past, not too while ago.
It's almost as bad. Just because these instances happen, doesn't mean we can sweep them under the rug.
Of course a Kobe fan would very much prefer this way of thinking, because if we sweep away the bad series' and problematic outings, Kobe is just simply left as a 5-time champion, again holding an edge over most all-timers.
The rest? Fck the rest. Everyone had their down days! amirite
Thats how your world view makes sense to you
Pretty sure Doranku ranks LeBron top 3 and Kobe 10th, Arby. He’s not delusional like ImKobe, so kinda dumb to paint him that way. Sure dude is a huge Kobe fan but he’s more objective than you’re being for sure.
Karl Malone better than Kobe :roll:
ArbitraryWater
05-17-2020, 01:15 PM
If you look at the numbers Kobe was the only one to average above 18 ppg for the epic Lakers Celtics series.
Garnett, Pierce, Ray, and Pau averaged ~16 ppg.
That's 4 HOF'ers.
Kobe did 30.
Game. Set. Match.
this is supposed to show...
what?
They all scored to their season average dummie. Ray 1 less, KG 1 more, Pierce exactly the same.
ArbitraryWater
05-17-2020, 01:17 PM
Pretty sure Doranku ranks LeBron top 3 and Kobe 10th, Arby. He’s not delusional like ImKobe, so kinda dumb to paint him that way.
I don't care.
If he says its ignorant to say Gasol decided Game 7, then he gets shit on.
Pretty sure Doranku ranks LeBron top 3 and Kobe 10th, Arby. He’s not delusional like ImKobe, so kinda dumb to paint him that way. Sure dude is a huge Kobe fan but he’s more objective than you’re being for sure.
Karl Malone better than Kobe :roll:
damn effin straight...
im not afraid to question the status quo, unlike you.
I don't care.
If he says its ignorant to say Gasol decided Game 7, then he gets shit on.
damn effin straight...
im not afraid to question the status quo, unlike you.
lol make a thread comparing the two and see who agrees with you besides trolls. Guarantee you won’t get a single agreement besides trolls.
Shit Arby says:
•Dirk had less help than Kobe in 06-07 (he at least implied this)
•Karl Malone>Kobe
Pure retardation.
Doranku
05-17-2020, 01:40 PM
retard logic
Here are what Gasol's offensive rebounds led to:
11:45.0 0-0 P. Gasol misses 2-pt tip-in at rim
11:45.0 0-0 Offensive rebound by P. Gasol
Missed tip, LA doesn't score on possession.
11:01.0 0-0 M. World Peace misses 2-pt jump shot from 20 ft
11:00.0 0-0 Offensive rebound by P. Gasol
10:55.0 0-3 +3 D. Fisher makes 3-pt jump shot from 26 ft (assist by P. Gasol)
Gasol rebounds World Peaces missed 3, assists Fish for 3. LA scores 3 points.
10:04.0 2-3 Offensive rebound by P. Gasol
10:02.0 2-3 P. Gasol misses 2-pt layup at rim (block by R. Wallace)
10:00.0 2-3 Offensive rebound by P. Gasol
9:58.0 2-5 +2 P. Gasol makes 2-pt hook shot from 2 ft
Gasol rebounds Bynum's miss, gets blocked, gets his own rebound, scores. 2 offensive rebounds, 2 points for LA.
9:21.0 4-5 P. Gasol misses 2-pt jump shot from 14 ft
9:20.0 4-5 Offensive rebound by P. Gasol
9:19.0 4-5 Shooting foul by R. Wallace (drawn by P. Gasol)
9:19.0 4-5 P. Gasol misses free throw 1 of 2
9:19.0 4-5 P. Gasol misses free throw 2 of 2
Gasol misses a shot, gets his own rebound, gets fouled, misses both FTs. LA doesn't score.
3:21.0 29-29 P. Gasol misses 2-pt tip-in at rim
3:21.0 29-29 Offensive rebound by P. Gasol
Missed tip, LA doesn't score on possession.
9:57.0 57-55 Offensive rebound by P. Gasol
9:56.0 57-55 Turnover by K. Bryant (lost ball; steal by R. Allen)
Gasol rebounds a missed Odom 3, puts Kobe in a bad spot open who instantly turns it over. LA doesn't score.
6:49.0 62-61 Offensive rebound by P. Gasol
6:49.0 Loose ball foul by R. Wallace (drawn by P. Gasol) 62-61
6:49.0 62-61 P. Gasol misses free throw 1 of 2
6:49.0 62-61 P. Gasol misses free throw 2 of 2
Gasol rebounds an Odom missed 3, gets fouled, misses both FTs. LA doesn't score.
0:27.9 76-79 Offensive rebound by P. Gasol
0:25.7 76-79 Shooting foul by R. Wallace (drawn by K. Bryant)
0:25.7 76-80 +1 K. Bryant makes free throw 1 of 2
0:25.7 76-81 +1 K. Bryant makes free throw 2 of 2
Gasol rebounds a missed Kobe 3, passes to a streaking Kobe who gets fouled. LA scores 2 points.
So throughout the game, Gasol's 9 offensive rebounds only led to 7 points with two of them being off a foul that Kobe drew. :oldlol: But YES, these 7 points are clearly and unequivocally more important than, say, the 10 points Kobe scored in the 4th quarter.
Oh wait. No they aren't.
And Kobe did lock down Rondo in the series. Rondo absolutely torched Bran and the Cavs a couple weeks prior. Kobe played free safety, roaming defense on Rondo and neutered a good portion of the Celtic offense because of it.
kuniva_dAMiGhTy
05-17-2020, 01:49 PM
I don't care.
If he says its ignorant to say Gasol decided Game 7, then he gets shit on.
damn effin straight...
im not afraid to question the status quo, unlike you.
Status quo? You're not questioning anything, pea brain :oldlol: Being a contrarian with no actual argument is like the norm for you.
Status quo? You're not questioning anything, pea brain :oldlol: Being a contrarian with no actual argument is like the norm for you.
Literally everything that says LeBron is better than Kobe says Kobe is better than Malone in the playoffs. He just hates Kobe :confusedshrug:
Well everything on basketball reference at least. Do we have impact stats for Malone?
ArbitraryWater
05-17-2020, 01:58 PM
Here are what Gasol's offensive rebounds led to:
11:45.0 0-0 P. Gasol misses 2-pt tip-in at rim
11:45.0 0-0 Offensive rebound by P. Gasol
Missed tip, LA doesn't score on possession.
11:01.0 0-0 M. World Peace misses 2-pt jump shot from 20 ft
11:00.0 0-0 Offensive rebound by P. Gasol
10:55.0 0-3 +3 D. Fisher makes 3-pt jump shot from 26 ft (assist by P. Gasol)
Gasol rebounds World Peaces missed 3, assists Fish for 3. LA scores 3 points.
10:04.0 2-3 Offensive rebound by P. Gasol
10:02.0 2-3 P. Gasol misses 2-pt layup at rim (block by R. Wallace)
10:00.0 2-3 Offensive rebound by P. Gasol
9:58.0 2-5 +2 P. Gasol makes 2-pt hook shot from 2 ft
Gasol rebounds Bynum's miss, gets blocked, gets his own rebound, scores. 2 offensive rebounds, 2 points for LA.
9:21.0 4-5 P. Gasol misses 2-pt jump shot from 14 ft
9:20.0 4-5 Offensive rebound by P. Gasol
9:19.0 4-5 Shooting foul by R. Wallace (drawn by P. Gasol)
9:19.0 4-5 P. Gasol misses free throw 1 of 2
9:19.0 4-5 P. Gasol misses free throw 2 of 2
Gasol misses a shot, gets his own rebound, gets fouled, misses both FTs. LA doesn't score.
3:21.0 29-29 P. Gasol misses 2-pt tip-in at rim
3:21.0 29-29 Offensive rebound by P. Gasol
Missed tip, LA doesn't score on possession.
9:57.0 57-55 Offensive rebound by P. Gasol
9:56.0 57-55 Turnover by K. Bryant (lost ball; steal by R. Allen)
Gasol rebounds a missed Odom 3, puts Kobe in a bad spot open who instantly turns it over. LA doesn't score.
6:49.0 62-61 Offensive rebound by P. Gasol
6:49.0 Loose ball foul by R. Wallace (drawn by P. Gasol) 62-61
6:49.0 62-61 P. Gasol misses free throw 1 of 2
6:49.0 62-61 P. Gasol misses free throw 2 of 2
Gasol rebounds an Odom missed 3, gets fouled, misses both FTs. LA doesn't score.
0:27.9 76-79 Offensive rebound by P. Gasol
0:25.7 76-79 Shooting foul by R. Wallace (drawn by K. Bryant)
0:25.7 76-80 +1 K. Bryant makes free throw 1 of 2
0:25.7 76-81 +1 K. Bryant makes free throw 2 of 2
Gasol rebounds a missed Kobe 3, passes to a streaking Kobe who gets fouled. LA scores 2 points.
So throughout the game, Gasol's 9 offensive rebounds only led to 7 points with two of them being off a foul that Kobe drew. :oldlol: But YES, these 7 points are clearly and unequivocally more important than, say, the 10 points Kobe scored in the 4th quarter.
Oh wait. No they aren't.
And Kobe did lock down Rondo in the series. Rondo absolutely torched Bran and the Cavs a couple weeks prior. Kobe played free safety, roaming defense on Rondo and neutered a good portion of the Celtic offense because of it.
I'm very grateful for the research done, but do you even realize how important 7 pts are in a game you are trailing all along, and were down 15 at one point?
it seems you dont.
also any missed shot, is basically a missed shot gotten outta the way. defense had to be played for that miss.
a later make might have been that miss that was gotten on an offensive rebound.
Bahaha, yes, Kobe sagging off 2-3 feet definitely locked Rondo down.
Jeezuz the absolute state
ArbitraryWater
05-17-2020, 01:59 PM
Shit Arby says:
•Dirk had less help than Kobe in 06-07 (he at least implied this)
•Karl Malone>Kobe
Pure retardation.
If I were you, don't take what you read as implication for fool proof, you're not the smartest tool in the shed :lol
that was the thread in which you said a superstar's 2nd option refers to only the scoring ability of that sidekick.
possibly something you might wanna forget happening
If I were you, don't take what you read as implication for fool proof, you're not the smartest tool in the shed :lol
that was the thread in which you said a superstar's 2nd option refers to only the scoring ability of that sidekick.
possibly something you might wanna forget happening
No what I meant was that second option is generally referring to the second option on offense and then I said someone like Josh Howard would have probably helped Kobe more in 2007 than Lamar Odom because Kobe had very bad scoring help. Odom was a Swiss Army knife type player who would be super valuable on teams when there is sufficient scoring but he’s not a true second option. Howard was putting up like 20 ppg on decent efficiency. You melted down over this and then I procured stats that indicated both Howard and Jason Terry were better more impactful players than Lamar Odom was in the season in question (2006-07). That made you furious because it exposed you as talking out of your ass due to your lust for Dirk and hatred for Kobe.
kuniva_dAMiGhTy
05-17-2020, 02:18 PM
Literally everything that says LeBron is better than Kobe says Kobe is better than Malone in the playoffs. He just hates Kobe :confusedshrug:
Well everything on basketball reference at least. Do we have impact stats for Malone?
The "DAMN STRAIGHT!" was his best line. Celebrating his own stupidity, unaware and all. :oldlol: Of course he hates Kobe. Most fanboys aren't actual basketball fans.
RAPM is available going back to 97. I think. Backend of Malone's prime so don't know how valuable it would be. For this comparison it probably wouldn't be at all though.
tpols
05-17-2020, 02:19 PM
If I were you, don't take what you read as implication for fool proof, you're not the smartest tool in the shed :lol
that was the thread in which you said a superstar's 2nd option refers to only the scoring ability of that sidekick.
possibly something you might wanna forget happening
jesus... :facepalm ... it's "not the sharpest tool in the shed"
You're not the brightest bulb mate.
kuniva_dAMiGhTy
05-17-2020, 02:20 PM
jesus... :facepalm... It's "not the sharpest tool in the shed"
you're not the brightest bulb mate.
lmao
warriorfan
05-17-2020, 02:22 PM
jesus... :facepalm ... it's "not the sharpest tool in the shed"
You're not the brightest bulb mate.
:roll:
Autistic Water at it again. In before “it wus a typo”
:roll:
jesus... :facepalm ... it's "not the sharpest tool in the shed"
You're not the brightest bulb mate.
Jesus Christ I didn’t even realize he said that. Classic Arby.
ImKobe
05-17-2020, 03:01 PM
jesus... :facepalm ... It's "not the sharpest tool in the shed"
you're not the brightest bulb mate.
lmfao.
Arby should know he's wrong when he's got a LeBron fan, an MJ fan and multiple Kobe fans all agreeing that he's being a jackass.
ArbitraryWater
05-17-2020, 03:44 PM
Got me on that one won't lie lol
This is what happens when u own basketball debates using 25% brain power
Much like Kobe using 25% basketball power to win game 7's in the NBA finals
:lebronamazed:
ArbitraryWater
05-17-2020, 03:46 PM
Arby should know he's wrong when he's got a LeBron fan, an MJ fan and multiple Kobe fans all agreeing that he's being a jackass.
It does bring a smile to my face to see I could bring kuniva and you together.
I never wanted to join in on you being made fun of for your looks.
That shit is only okay when its warriorfan
It does bring a smile to my face to see I could bring kuniva and you together.
I never wanted to join in on you being made fun of for your looks.
That shit is only okay when its warriorfan
The only people who make fun of me on here are posters who already hate me or at least dislike me for either being a LeBron stan or my political views. Most of them wouldn't post their pic and let us see they're a 300 pound oaf either.
Lebron23
05-17-2020, 04:17 PM
Terrible finals performer. Back when i was a teen I had Ballhog teammate who loves Kobe. I benched him starting in the quarter finals round. Good times
Arby should know he's wrong when he's got a LeBron fan, an MJ fan and multiple Kobe fans all agreeing that he's being a jackass.
Either the guy is an epic failure, an absolute moron or both.
ArbitraryWater
05-17-2020, 08:16 PM
Either the guy is an epic failure, an absolute moron or both.
You have made another post which isn't well thought through at all.
You aren't cut out for this internet biz.
Either log off, or do the only thing remotely noteable you can do, talk cars.
Nobody has time for your emotional issues.
You have made another post which isn't well thought through at all.
You aren't cut out for this internet biz.
Either log off, or do the only thing remotely noteable you can do, talk cars.
Nobody has time for your emotional issues.
Lmao yeah ikr. I have better things to worry about than some sorry wanking being who's always moody and has the audacity to act like a jerk in this board all the time.
Nilocon165
05-17-2020, 08:32 PM
Lmao yeah ikr. I have better things to worry about than some sorry wanking being who's always moody and has the audacity to act like a jerk in this board all the time.
Then don’t post 32 times a day
Jesus, even I never got that high
Then don’t post 32 times a day
Jesus, even I never got that high
Stop stalking me, fool. And no, you don't get to tell me what imma do here at all.
Turbo Slayer
05-17-2020, 10:08 PM
Oh my god... This took way too much time/effort. It took a lot of effort calculating everything lol. I'm excluding non prime years in the playoffs where it was obvious there was decline such as 2003-04 (Karl Malone's last year).
Minimum 10 games in the Playoffs!
Kobe Bryant (as 1st option, not including years where he was 2nd fiddle)
38.6 points per 100 possessions on .559 TS%
Box Creation- 9.0
BPM- 7.1
WS/48- .184
Karl Malone aka 1995-96 to 1990-00 and 1993-94, 1991-92, 1987-88
35.2 points per 100 possessions on .540 TS%
Box Creation- 4.6
BPM- 4.7
WS/48- 0.171
It's pretty obvious that Kobe Bryant beats Malone in scoring rate, ability to elevate a offense (aka passing and creating shots 4 teammates), efficiency, impact, and winning metrics.
Where do you get Box Creation numbers?
Turbo Slayer
05-17-2020, 10:23 PM
Where do you get Box Creation numbers?
Creation = Ast*0.1843+(Pts+TOV)*0.0969-2.3021*(3pt proficiency)+0.0582*(Ast*(Pts+TOV)*3pt proficiency)-1.1942
Note: ALL STATS ARE PER 100 stats
There you go.
MrFonzworth
05-17-2020, 10:23 PM
Oh God:facepalm
Jesus Christ, I'm not about to go through all that for every player I look up. Is there no site that tracks it?
Turbo Slayer
05-17-2020, 10:29 PM
Jesus Christ, I'm not about to go through all that for every player I look up. Is there no site that tracks it? Unfortunately no. Sorry! There is literally no site that tracks it. So you going have to manually do it by yourself. I know its really inconvenient.
:cheers:
Turbo Slayer
05-17-2020, 10:34 PM
jesus... :facepalm ... it's "not the sharpest tool in the shed"
You're not the brightest bulb mate. :roll:
Turbo Slayer
05-17-2020, 10:41 PM
Oh my god... This took way too much time/effort. It took a lot of effort calculating everything lol. I'm excluding non prime years in the playoffs where it was obvious there was decline such as 2003-04 (Karl Malone's last year).
Minimum 10 games in the Playoffs!
Kobe Bryant (as 1st option, not including years where he was 2nd fiddle)
38.6 points per 100 possessions on .559 TS%
Box Creation- 9.0
BPM- 7.1
WS/48- .184
Karl Malone aka 1995-96 to 1990-00 and 1993-94, 1991-92, 1987-88
35.2 points per 100 possessions on .540 TS%
Box Creation- 4.6
BPM- 4.7
WS/48- 0.171
It's pretty obvious that Kobe Bryant beats Malone in scoring rate, ability to elevate a offense (aka passing and creating shots 4 teammates), efficiency, impact, and winning metrics.
Its also worth noting that Karl Malone has a limited outside jumper (3pt shot). That reduced offense/points of attacks results in average offenses and hurts scalability on offense and when defenses start to tidy up in the POs it can be a major weakness to his game.
Kobe Bryant is an all-around player. He can post up, shoot outside jumpers, shoot from midrange, basically anywhere on the court. While Kobe is prone to waste some possessions due to careless shot jacking, the advantages Kobe has to his game is enough to offset his weakness on court so it's not a big problem to gloss over tbh.
LostCause
05-17-2020, 10:43 PM
Damn Turbo with some quality posting in this thread :cheers:
Turbo Slayer
05-17-2020, 10:46 PM
Thanks!
HoopsNY
05-17-2020, 10:48 PM
So you think LeBron has been in his prime his entire career outside of his rookie season?
It's a good question. I mean, how do we define one's entrance into their prime? By year 2, LeBron was a 27-7-7 player averaging 2.2 stls. He finished 6th in MVP voting, 6th in PER, was All-NBA 2nd team, and took a 17 win team from 2002-03 to 42 wins by 2004-05 (his second season with the team).
Even if we disqualify that year from his prime years, then certainly year three marks the beginning of his prime. LeBron is a GOAT level player. How many GOAT level players took 3+ years to hit their prime? Kareem, Wilt, MJ, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Oscar, Russell, Shaq, and Hakeem all seemed to hit their stride by their second or third season. The only exception is probably Kobe, and in his case, he was a bench player for his first two years. By year 3 he was All-NBA 2nd team and All-Defensive 1st team. So I do think it's reasonable to consider being in his prime by year 2 or 3, and no question by year 4.
HoopsNY
05-17-2020, 11:01 PM
Ewing's 2nd option was John Starks.
so relative to his competition, maxwell was nice.
I watched the houston documentaries. Maxwell went off, and especially clyde... Clyde was just a monster in '95 playoffs.
He was a former MVP candidate turned 2nd option. Pau never even made an all NBA team before LA.
This isn't a fair criticism of Hakeem's 1994 playoff run. For one, Starks was a better player than Otis Thorpe and Vernon Maxwell, and at least a better scorer than the both of them.
In addition, Hakeem beat a Blazers team with Robinson-Drexler-Strickland and then beat a Suns team that had Barkley and KJ. Kj averaged 26+ a game in that series and I believe Barkley added almost 24 ppg.
Game 7 is where Hakeem's ability really comes to light. KJ goes for 25 pts and 11 assists, while Barkley goes for 24-15-4 with 3 stls. But Hakeem? 37 points 17 rebounds and 5 assists with 3 blks.
And then he beats a Utah team with 2 HOF'ers. I don't generally buy the "relative to the competition" argument, mostly because the GOAT player is so much better to his opponents that he is the cheat code, not his supporting cast.
HoopsNY
05-17-2020, 11:08 PM
Ehhh... at the end of the day they are both great players. Kobe and LeBron are both great. You can't go wrong with either of them. I always see one side bashing the other.
This is certainly the case with every GOAT level player. But to me, Lebron is significantly better than Kobe. Maybe I'm wrong for that, but I just feel like 2007-2010 is just not enough to overcome everything else in 20 years in comparison to Lebron's talent, ability, and accomplishments over 17 years.
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