Perfect example of empty stats

[RogueBorg]

2017 NBA Finals Game 3

LeBron James by all acounts had a fantastic game scoring 39 points, grabbing 11 rebounds, and dishing out 9 assists. He didn't do this when it mattered most.

Going into the 4th quarter, Cleveland led Golden State 94-89 and were right there to steal the crucial game 3.

11:09 L. James misses 2-pt layup at rim 94-89 Cle
10:37 L. James makes 3-pt jump shot from 24 ft (assist by K. Irving) Cle. 97-91
6:55 L. James makes 2-pt layup from 1 ft Cle. 104-99
4:28 L. James makes free throw 1 of 2 Cle. 109-107
4:28 L. James makes free throw 2 of 2 Cle. 110-107
3:45 L. James misses 2-pt layup from 1 ft Cle. 110-107
1:29 L. James misses 2-pt jump shot from 12 ft Cle. 113-109
:12 L. James misses 3-pt jump shot from 23 ft (block by A. Iguodala) GS 116-113
:10 Turnover by L. James (step out of bounds) GS 116-113
End of Game

LeBron doesn't score the final 4:28 after hitting two free throws while Kevin Durant outscores LBJ 7-0 down the stretch.

So go look at the box scores for all your metrics and advanced stats, they don't mean as much as you think they do.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You think Durant was better than Bron in 2017?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I think both his 2017 and 2018 runs were overrated. All he did was beat up on an awful eastern conference, go 1-8 in the finals and put up empty stats. I don't expect him to beat warriors those years but I don't see why any top 10 GOAT couldn't get to the finals those years and go 1-8.

[RogueBorg]

You think Durant was better than Bron in 2017?

It's close. This thread is really about showing stats can be empty and misleading.

[Mamba4Life]

I think both his 2017 and 2018 runs were overrated. All he did was beat up on an awful eastern conference, go 1-8 in the finals and put up empty stats. I don't expect him to beat warriors those years but I don't see why any top 10 GOAT couldn't get to the finals those years and go 1-8.


Should he have simply lost in the 1st round those years ala MJ?

[RogueBorg]

I think both his 2017 and 2018 runs were overrated. All he did was beat up on an awful eastern conference, go 1-8 in the finals and put up empty stats. I don't expect him to beat warriors those years but I don't see why any top 10 GOAT couldn't get to the finals those years and go 1-8.

I agree, but they were so close, Cleveland was in perfect position to steal Game 3 and blew it.

[Bankaii]

That’s not what empty stats are:facepalm
MJ pre-Pip is empty stats.

[RogueBorg]

Should he have simply lost in the 1st round those years ala MJ?

No, of course not, what kinda loser question is that?

[1987_Lakers]

Averaged a 30 point triple double in that series, just had the misfortune of going up against the GOAT team.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Should he have simply lost in the 1st round those years ala MJ?

That's what happens when you play Bird's celtics instead of Victor Oladipo

[Roundball_Rock]

Does a poor fourth quarter negate what he did in the first three quarters?

This exercise is useful only if there is a trend but we could go game by game and find bad quarters (including the fourth) for any player. You did a similar thing with Harden in another thread. Kawhi in his Game 6 against the Warriors had only 2 points. If his team lost people would notice and say "Where was Kawhi?" but since they won he is lionized.


That's what happens when you play Bird's celtics instead of Victor Oladipo

The way to avoid the Celtics is to not be the 8 seed, though. I think the complaint is that the Bulls were just bad in the first place.

[3ball]

2017 NBA Finals Game 3

LeBron James by all acounts had a fantastic game scoring 39 points, grabbing 11 rebounds, and dishing out 9 assists. He didn't do this when it mattered most.

Going into the 4th quarter, Cleveland led Golden State 94-89 and were right there to steal the crucial game 3.

11:09 L. James misses 2-pt layup at rim 94-89 Cle
10:37 L. James makes 3-pt jump shot from 24 ft (assist by K. Irving) Cle. 97-91
6:55 L. James makes 2-pt layup from 1 ft Cle. 104-99
4:28 L. James makes free throw 1 of 2 Cle. 109-107
4:28 L. James makes free throw 2 of 2 Cle. 110-107
3:45 L. James misses 2-pt layup from 1 ft Cle. 110-107
1:29 L. James misses 2-pt jump shot from 12 ft Cle. 113-109
:12 L. James misses 3-pt jump shot from 23 ft (block by A. Iguodala) GS 116-113
:10 Turnover by L. James (step out of bounds) GS 116-113
End of Game

LeBron doesn't score the final 4:28 after hitting two free throws while Kevin Durant outscores LBJ 7-0 down the stretch.

So go look at the box scores for all your metrics and advanced stats, they don't mean as much as you think they do.

Story of his career

The 09' Cavs lost 4th quarter leads in 3 of 4 games to start the ECF..

MJ won tight games, 6/6.... lebron doesn't, 3/9

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan had those games too, 3ball. Here is a sampling from Fatal9: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?140520-Michael-Jordan-Anti-clutch-Log

[RogueBorg]

Does a poor fourth quarter negate what he did in the first three quarters?



Do you want to talk about overtime of Game 1 in the 2018 Finals where he put up 51-8-8? Some call it the best playoff game in history. Then he takes a dump in OT where

he scored 2 points, 0 assists, 0-4 from the field, -10 plus/minus and they lose by 10.

Gotta close the deal don't you think? That's my beef with Lebron, all these gaffs at the end of games masking the rest of his game.

[3ball]

Jordan had those games too, 3ball. Here is a sampling from Fatal9: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?140520-Michael-Jordan-Anti-clutch-Log

Everyone misses game-winners - but MJ didn't lose 4th quarter leads like lebron - Lebron lost 4th quarter leads in Games 1 and 3 of the 18' Finals, and 3 of 4 games to start the 09' ECF

And you must be wondering - why does Lebron have inferior 4th quarter and clutch stats and lose 4th quarter leads?

It's a combination of inferior skills (scoring, jumpshooting, post, scoring diversity aka on-ball and off-ball) and style/mentality (defers to lesser teammates, avoids contested jumpers, not mamba/assassin)

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Does a poor fourth quarter negate what he did in the first three quarters?

This exercise is useful only if there is a trend but we could go game by game and find bad quarters (including the fourth) for any player. You did a similar thing with Harden in another thread. Kawhi in his Game 6 against the Warriors had only 2 points. If his team lost people would notice and say "Where was Kawhi?" but since they won he is lionized.



The way to avoid the Celtics is to not be the 8 seed, though. I think the complaint is that the Bulls were just bad in the first place.

Jordan's next best player had a VORP of 0.9 which was equal to Kyle korver in 2018 lol. Jordan didn't have anybody on Kevin Love's level by that time.

By 1988, Jordan won 50 games just like lebron in 2018.

[StrongLurk]

Wow, OP, you really nailed that "perfect example" of empty stats...this board is atrocious.

[FultzNationRISE]

2017 NBA Finals Game 3

LeBron James by all acounts had a fantastic game scoring 39 points, grabbing 11 rebounds, and dishing out 9 assists. He didn't do this when it mattered most.

Going into the 4th quarter, Cleveland led Golden State 94-89 and were right there to steal the crucial game 3.




Wow, really??? They were up 94-89 against possibly the greatest team in history, in a 4th quarter of an NBA Finals???

I wonder who got them in that position. Maybe it was Christian Thompson and the brilliant wind defenders like JR Smith.



Oh but wait, Lebron didnt shoot 100% for the entire game so I guess he made them lose :hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead:



OP, you're gettin real close to goin on my Shit List, bud. I'd watch my step if I was you.

[3ball]

Wow, OP, you really nailed that "perfect example" of empty stats...this board is atrocious.

OP has identified a 2nd game in the 18' Finals where Lebron's poor play in clutch-time caused a loss.

He also lost 4th quarter leads in 3 games of the 09' ECF, including going 2-6 in the critical Game 4 OT (dwight was 4-4)

why does Lebron have inferior 4th quarter and clutch stats and lose 4th quarter leads?

It's a combination of inferior skills (scoring, jumpshooting, post, scoring diversity aka on-ball and off-ball) and style/mentality (defers to lesser teammates, avoids contested jumpers, not mamba/assassin)

[Roundball_Rock]

Does he have a trend of this? I don't think so. Is he as clutch as MJ or KAJ? No, but who is?


Jordan's next best player had a VORP of 0.9 which was equal to Kyle korver in 2018 lol

2007 Cav's second highest VORP was 1.3. In 2008 it was 0.9. They were 45-37 but that is because they went 0-7 without LeBron. With him they played at a 50 win pace. I think the lowest seed LeBron has ever had is 4th.

On the 87' Bulls Oakley was 15/13 in the season and 20/15 in the playoffs. Not great help but not zero help either.

[Whoah10115]

I think OP made a mistake choosing LeBron for this, because now you have 3ball gloating and insulting, and others bringing up poop.

[RogueBorg]

Wow, really??? They were up 94-89 against possibly the greatest team in history, in a 4th quarter of an NBA Finals???

I wonder who got them in that position. Maybe it was Christian Thompson and the brilliant wind defenders like JR Smith.



Oh but wait, Lebron didnt shoot 100% for the entire game so I guess he made them lose :hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead:



OP, you're gettin real close to goin on my Shit List, bud. I'd watch my step if I was you.

Uh oh, what's gonna happen if I make the list?

In the 4th, LeBron missed two baskets at the rim, missed a 12-ft jump shot, missed a three, and turned it over at the end. Surely you don't feel that's ok.

[tpols]

He does shit like that all the time. and then stans turn around and lay out averages.

We watched the games bro.

[tpols]

Do 2014 Finals now.

[FultzNationRISE]

Uh oh, what's gonna happen if I make the list?


Your entire estate will come to ruin...

[3ball]

Do 2014 Finals now.

And 09' ECF

[RogueBorg]

Your entire estate will come to ruin...

Well I don't want that to happen so I'll watch my step

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Does he have a trend of this? I don't think so. Is he as clutch as MJ or KAJ? No, but who is?



2007 Cav's second highest VORP was 1.3. In 2008 it was 0.9. They were 45-37 but that is because they went 0-7 without LeBron. With him they played at a 50 win pace. I think the lowest seed LeBron has ever had is 4th.

On the 87' Bulls Oakley was 15/13 in the season and 20/15 in the playoffs. Not great help but not zero help either.

2007 Cavs had four different players above 1 in VORP, while 86-87 Bulls had zero players above 1 in VORP.

2008 Cavs made it 1 round further, not really significant. They took Celtics 7 games but so did the hawks.

[RogueBorg]

I think OP made a mistake choosing LeBron for this, because now you have 3ball gloating and insulting, and others bringing up poop.

3ball is a bit like the Tasmanian Devil, I kinda like it when he's spinning out of control :lebronamazed:

[Roundball_Rock]

2007 Cavs had four different players above 1 in VORP, while 86-87 Bulls had zero players above 1 in VORP.

2008 Cavs made it 1 round further, not really significant. They took Celtics 7 games but so did the hawks.

My original comment was about seeding and avoiding 8th place but there is a big difference between making it to Game 7 of the ECSF and making it to Game 3 of the first round (Cavs losing to the eventual champion, Bulls to the runner up).

2008 Cavs cast top VORPs: Z 0.9, Gibson 0.7, West 0.6, Jones 0.5, Wallace 0.2
1987 Bulls cast top VORPs: Corzine 0.9, Threatt 0.5, Paxson 0.4, Banks 0.4, Sellers 0.1

There is no substantive difference between the two casts' VORPs.

Also keep in mind Jordan's usage and FGA/FTA per game were sky high.

Jordan 87': 38.3% usage, 27.8 FGA and 11.9 FTA per game
LeBron 08': 33.5% usage, 21.9 FGA and 10.3 FTA per game

There aren't that many stats to be had for the rest of the team when one guy is having that much usage.

[Uncle Drew]

That's what happens when you play Bird's celtics instead of Victor Oladipo

So we're supposed to praise bad seeding now? Shameless.

[jstern]

I think a better example is how Lebron led teams are usually in the middle of the league in terms of assists, while Jordan led teams are usually in the top 3. Because the average person never considers playing style when comparing the two in the Jordan vs Lebron debate. With everything having to go through Lebron and "he makes players better" because he averages more assist, versus Jordan's GOAT off the ball style, where his teammates can better play to their strengths.

[Smoke117]

What a bunch of stupid ****ing logic. Missing shots at the end of the game doesn't make everything you did before empty. It's not a 12 minute game. If not for LeBron the Cavs wouldn't have been up 94-89 in the first place going in to that 4th quarter. They'd have been being blown out. Another stupid ass troll account...just what this board needs.

[Roundball_Rock]

I think a better example is how Lebron led teams are usually in the middle of the league in terms of assists, while Jordan led teams are usually in the top 3.

With everything having to go through Lebron and "he makes players better" because he averages more assist, versus Jordan's GOAT off the ball style, where his teammates can better play to their strengths.

The Bulls' barely had a top 20 offense when Pippen was out nearly half a season so that "GOAT off the ball style" didn't work so well without the second superstar who was the primary facilitator.

LeBron gets credit for making his teammates better because they perform a lot better with him than without him.

LeBron teammate's FG % in their Last Season with LeBron and the Next

Wade: 54.5% to 47.0%
Bosh: 51.6% to 46.0%
Irving: 47.3% to 49.1%
Love: 45.8% to 38.5%
Williams: 44.2% to 39.9%
Jamison: 48.5% to 42.7% (Cleveland numbers)
Chalmers: 45.4% to 40.3%

These are Nash and Magic level declines.

[jstern]

The Bulls' barely had a top 20 offense when Pippen was out nearly half a season so that "GOAT off the ball style" didn't work so well without the second superstar who was the primary facilitator.

LeBron gets credit for making his teammates better because they perform a lot better with him than without him.

LeBron teammate's FG % in their Last Season with LeBron and the Next

Wade: 54.5% to 47.0%
Bosh: 51.6% to 46.0%
Irving: 47.3% to 49.1%
Love: 45.8% to 38.5%
Williams: 44.2% to 39.9%
Jamison: 48.5% to 42.7% (Cleveland numbers)
Chalmers: 45.4% to 40.3%

These are Nash and Magic level declines.

That's more of the effect of cherry picking stats because one is in a Super Team. Lebron and Wade have even talked about it, back during the Miami days, that they basically had the opportunity of just selecting shots with the least amount of defense, specifically to improve their FG%.

I'm not sure where you got the ranking of the Bulls offense while Scottie Pippen was out, but the Bulls were 12 - 2 the last 14 games before Pippen came back. And that still doesn't explain how even though there were no high assists guy in the Bulls, they were always top 3 or so in the league in terms of assists, yet Lebron with the Lebron ball systems that gives him high stats could never do the same.

[Vino24]

So what I got from this thread is that we shouldn’t be too hard on MJ for not achieving better seeding