Top 5 SRS teams that MJ/Lebron beat with poor stats from #2 (aka carry-jobs)

[3ball]

.
Jordan



1989 First Rd vs Cavs (#1 SRS, 57 wins)... 15.0 on 40% from Pippen

1996 Finals vs Sonics (#2 SRS, 64 wins)... 15.7 on 34% from Pippen

1997 ECF vs. Miami (#4 SRS, 61 wins)...... 16.8 on 42% from Pippen

1998 ECF vs. Pacers (#4 SRS, 58 wins)..... 16.6 on 39% from Pippen

1998 Finals vs Jazz (#5 SRS, 62 wins)...... 15.7 on 41% from Pippen



Lebton



no data available



Lebron has never carried a team to victory against anyone decent because he always needed great sidekick production when he beat top 5 SRS opponents

[LeCroix]

# of top 25 srs teams faced

lebron 5
jordan 1

bye

[RRR3]

.
Jordan



1989 First Rd vs Cavs (#1 SRS, 57 wins)... 15.0 on 40% from Pippen

1996 Finals vs Sonics (#2 SRS, 64 wins)... 15.7 on 34% from Pippen

1997 ECF vs. Miami (#3 SRS, 60 wins)...... 16.7 on 38% from Pippen

1998 ECF vs. Pacers (#4 SRS, 58 wins)..... 16.2 on 40% from Pippen

1998 Finals vs Jazz (#2 SRS, 62 wins)...... 15.7 on 41% from Pippen



Lebton



no data available
I mean sure, "no data is available" when you lie. The facts disagree though.


2011 ECF vs Bulls (#2 SRS, 62 wins)...18.8 on 49.8 TS% from Wade

2013 Finals vs Spurs (#3 SRS, 58 wins) 19.6 on 50.5 TS% from Wade

2015 ECF vs Hawks (#4 SRS, 60 wins) 13.5 PPG on 57.1 TS% from Kyrie (only played two games in limited minutes due to injury. Somehow LeBeast turned J.R. Smith into an 18 PPG on 66.4 TS% in this series though :bowdown: Created his own elite second option :applause:)

[tpols]

hawks and bulls :roll:

and if you consider dwayne wade a poor 2nd option, im revoking your heat fan card.

You're done.

[Manny98]

It's not a carry job when MJ shot awfully himself in most of those series

He shot 33% from the field in the last 3 games of the 96 NBA finals against the Sonics

He shot a pathetic 38% against Miami in 97 which was worse than Pippen himself

And Pippen was arguably the best player in the 98 finals
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1998-06-11-9806110398-story.html

[RRR3]

hawks and bulls :roll:

and if you consider dwayne wade a poor 2nd option, im revoking your heat fan card.

You're done.
How are you this stupid? I literally just used the criteria he used in the OP except I used TS% because it's a better measure of efficiency. I didn't give any opinions on what I thought of the teams or the second options.

[3ball]

It's not a carry job when MJ shot awfully himself in most of those series

He shot 33% from the field in the last 3 games of the 96 NBA finals against the Sonics

He shot a pathetic 38% against Miami in 97 which was worse than Pippen himself

And Pippen was arguably the best player in the 98 finals
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1998-06-11-9806110398-story.html

Your article about the 98' Finals is thru 4 games, before Pippen got hurt and basically missed the last 2 games (8 and 6 pts, aka replacement player).. Even thru 4 games, MJ was outscoring Pippen by 12 ppg

And any poor efficiency for mj is due to his volume requirements - only MJ had to win rings with high volume (25 fga and/or 35% usage or higher - MJ won 4 rings this way)... That's why only MJ could win with the bulls - only he could fulfill the volume requirements at sufficient efficiency - no one else ever shot 45% at 25 fga except 95' Hakeem and MJ

[RRR3]

I mean sure, "no data is available" when you lie. The facts disagree though.


2011 ECF vs Bulls (#2 SRS, 62 wins)...18.8 on 49.8 TS% from Wade

2013 Finals vs Spurs (#3 SRS, 58 wins) 19.6 on 50.5 TS% from Wade

2015 ECF vs Hawks (#4 SRS, 60 wins) 13.5 PPG on 57.1 TS% from Kyrie (only played two games in limited minutes due to injury. Somehow LeBeast turned J.R. Smith into an 18 PPG on 66.4 TS% in this series though :bowdown: Created his own elite second option :applause:)
3ball?

[tpols]

How are you this stupid? I literally just used the criteria he used in the OP except I used TS% because it's a better measure of efficiency. I didn't give any opinions on what I thought of the teams or the second options.

MJ, Kobe, and Wade are the holy trinity of shooting guards.

the clyde drexler, manu, ray allen, iverson, harden etc. class was a huge step below them.

The fact that you listed dwayne wade as a "poor" 2nd option with regards to this thread invalidates your heat fandom mate.

I'm sorry. :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

3ball?



Wade showed similar true shooting but averaged 4-5 more ppg

All the series for Pippen were 15-16 ppg with 43-50 ts.. you posted Wade with 19-20 ppg and 50 ts..

and then JR Smith with 18 on 67 ts ridiculous shooting.. more like his denver days

[RRR3]

MJ, Kobe, and Wade are the holy trinity of shooting guards.

the clyde drexler, manu, ray allen, iverson, harden etc. class was a huge step below them.

The fact that you listed dwayne wade as a "poor" 2nd option with regards to this thread invalidates your heat fandom mate.

I'm sorry. :confusedshrug:
When did I say Wade was a poor second option you moron? OP said LeBron never beat a top 5 SRS team in the playoffs with poor statistical output from his second options. Are you denying Wade had weak statistical outputs in the 11 ECF and 13 finals? Are 18.8 PPG on 49.8 TS% and 19.6 PPG on 50.5 TS% good scoring numbers now?


Seriously, you are making a case for dumbest poster on ISH.

[LeCroix]

When did I say Wade was a poor second option you moron? OP said LeBron never beat a top 5 SRS team in the playoffs with poor statistical output from his second options. Are you denying Wade had weak statistical outputs in the 11 ECF and 13 finals? Are 18.8 PPG on 49.8 TS% and 19.6 PPG on 50.5 TS% good scoring numbers now?


Seriously, you are making a case for dumbest poster on ISH.

plus the other half of basketball...you know

rebounds, passing, defense :lol

3ball has gone off the rocker

[RRR3]

Wade showed similar true shooting but averaged 4-5 more ppg

All the series for Pippen were 15-16 ppg with 43-50 ts.. you posted Wade with 19-20 ppg and 50 ts
You asked for poor statistical support from second options. I'm sorry Wade's numbers weren't identical, but it still fits your criteria.

[SouBeachTalents]

MJ, Kobe, and Wade are the holy trinity of shooting guards.

the clyde drexler, manu, ray allen, iverson, harden etc. class was a huge step below them.

The fact that you listed dwayne wade as a "poor" 2nd option with regards to this thread invalidates your heat fandom mate.

I'm sorry. :confusedshrug:
Wade was definitely nothing special in '13 & '14, and he absolutely was poor in the 2014 Finals

[3ball]

You asked for poor statistical support from second options. I'm sorry Wade's numbers weren't identical, but it still fits your criteria.

No, it doesn't.. 4-5 ppg is a lot

You couldn't identify any wins against good teams where wade averaged 15-16 on poor shooting - only MJ won woth that

[RRR3]

No, it doesn't.. 4-5 ppg is a lot

You couldn't identify any wins against good teams where wade averaged 15-16 on poor shooting - only MJ won woth that
That's not what you specified in the OP. You said "poor stats from #2". It's literally in the thread title. I gave you three series that LeBron won that fit your criteria. It's true Kyrie was hurt and didn't play much in 15, so if you want to count JR Smith as a great second option in the 15 ECF, fine, then we can narrow it down to 2. Regardless, that's still 2 series in which LeBron's second option did poorly scoring wise and he still won against a top 5 SRS team. You said he never did it. I proved you wrong. It doesn't matter if Jordan's second option had worse series scoring wise, it still met your criteria.

[RRR3]

Wade was definitely nothing special in '13 & '14, and he absolutely was poor in the 2014 Finals
Wade was a legit superstar in 2011, you could argue he was the second best player in the league after LeBron. But he did have a bad series scoring wise against the #2 SRS Bulls, and LeBron still won, which is what the OP wanted, so I'm really not sure why Ttrolls is trying to pretend otherwise other than the fact that he's having a tantrum over LeBron being better than his hero like he does every day.

[SouBeachTalents]

Wade was a legit superstar in 2011, you could argue he was the second best player in the league after LeBron. But he did have a bad series scoring wise against the #2 SRS Bulls, and LeBron still won, which is what the OP wanted, so I'm really not sure why Ttrolls is trying to pretend otherwise other than the fact that he's having a tantrum over LeBron being better than his hero like he does every day.
Well technically Bosh could be considered the #2 that series. He took less shots, but averaged 23 on 68%TS, by far his best series on the Heat

[RRR3]

Well technically Bosh could be considered the #2 that series. He took less shots, but averaged 23 on 68%TS, by far his best series on the Heat
Bosh had a great series, but he was still the third option. He took less shots, like you said. I'm sure 3ball will come in screeching about Bosh having a great series, but 3rd options were never part of his criteria in this thread and he's really not one to complain about cherry picking anyways.

[3ball]

That's not what you specified in the OP. You said "poor stats from #2". It's literally in the thread title.



Yes but if it's clear that the series you found are distinctly below the caliber that I posted (4-5 ppg), then why pretend that you adequately countered the point I'm making??.. you didn't... 4-5 ppg is a lot and i didn't expect you to post some obviously inferior shit and pass it off as the same..

And btw, Pippen was at 20 ppg on 46% true shooting in the 93' Finals, so your Wade series are better than peak Pippen.

Again, only MJ beat good teams with 15-16 ppg from his sidekick

[LeCroix]

.
Jordan



1989 First Rd vs Cavs (#1 SRS, 57 wins)... 15.0 on 40% from Pippen (GmSc = 11.5)

1996 Finals vs Sonics (#2 SRS, 64 wins)... 15.7 on 34% from Pippen (GmSc = 13.4)

1997 ECF vs. Miami (#4 SRS, 61 wins)...... 16.8 on 42% from Pippen (GmSc = 10.8)

1998 ECF vs. Pacers (#4 SRS, 58 wins)..... 16.6 on 39% from Pippen (GmSc = 13.0)

1998 Finals vs Jazz (#5 SRS, 62 wins)...... 15.7 on 41% from Pippen(GmSc = 13.0)



LeBron



no data available



Lebron has never carried a team to victory against anyone decent because he always needed great sidekick production when he beat top 5 SRS opponents

GAME SCORE:
Why was this so easy to refute? :lol

2011 ECF vs Bulls (#2 SRS, 62 wins) (Wade GmSc = 11.1)

2013 Finals vs Spurs (#3 SRS, 58 wins) (Wade GmSc = 14.9)

2015 ECF vs Hawks (#4 SRS, 60 wins) (Irving GmSc = 11.5)

Hmm...that was easy :lol

[RRR3]

Yes but if it's clear that the series you found are distinctly below the caliber that I posted (4-5 ppg), then why act as though you adequately countered the point I'm making??.. you didn't... 4-5 ppg is a lot and i didn't expect you to post some obviously inferior shit and pass it off as the same..

And btw, Pippen was at 20 ppg on 46% true shooting in the 93' Finals, so your Wade series are better than peak Pippen.

Again, only MJ beat good teams with 15-16 ppg from his sidekick

You didn't ask for series in which LeBron won with his #2 averaging the exact same numbers (or worse) than Pippen, though. You asked for series in which LeBron won with poor #2 stats against top 5 SRS teams. I gave you examples. It's not my fault you don't like the fact that I was able to provide examples. Tough shit.

And yes, 20 PPG on 46 TS% is definitely bad.

[RRR3]

GAME SCORE:
Why was this so easy to refute? :lol

2011 ECF vs Bulls (#2 SRS, 62 wins) (Wade GmSc = 11.1)

2013 Finals vs Spurs (#3 SRS, 58 wins) (Wade GmSc = 14.9)

2015 ECF vs Hawks (#4 SRS, 60 wins) (Irving GmSc = 11.5)

Hmm...that was easy :lol
Game score takes more than scoring into account. He's basing the OP only off scoring.

[LeCroix]

MJ's claim to fame for his 'biggest' carries

Pip had game scores of

11.5, 13.4, 10.8, 13.0, 13.0 for average of 12.34


kyrie/wade had game scores of
11.1, 14.9, 11.5 for average of 12.50

12.34 vs 12.50

this was it? :lol ABANDON THREAD

[LeCroix]

Game score takes more than scoring into account. He's basing the OP only off scoring.

yeah thats not how basketball is played :lol he is talking about poor stats not poor scoring

[RRR3]

yeah thats not how basketball is played :lol he is talking about poor stats not poor scoring
I'm not saying I agree with him. I'm just sticking to his criteria because it's much harder for him to wiggle out of it if I use his own logic against him.

[tpols]

Wade was definitely nothing special in '13 & '14, and he absolutely was poor in the 2014 Finals


most of that is due to poor fit with Lebron.

They were literally negative +/-

Wade years and years later in 2016 was leading playoff teams and winning series as a first option.

[LeCroix]

I'm not saying I agree with him. I'm just sticking to his criteria because it's much harder for him to wiggle out of it if I use his own logic against him.

So basically the 'worst games' where pippen was carried so mightily by mj was matched by wade and kyrie :lol

dude is a clown for real

[LeCroix]

most of that is due to poor fit with Lebron.

They were literally negative +/-

Wade years and years later in 2016 was leading playoff teams and winning series as a first option.

was shaq a poor fit with kobe in 2004? he won with wade in 2006

[3ball]

You didn't ask for series in which LeBron won with his #2 averaging the exact same numbers (or worse) than Pippen, though. You asked for series in which LeBron won with poor #2 stats against top 5 SRS teams. I gave you examples. It's not my fault you don't like the fact that I was able to provide examples. Tough shit.

And yes, 20 PPG on 46 TS% is definitely bad.

Wade's 2 series...... 20 on 50% ts

Pippen' 96-98' PO... 18 on 50% ts

Pippen 93' Finals.... 20 on 46% ts

Pippen 91-93' PO.... 20 on 53.6 ts


So are you saying most pf Pippen's Playoffs career is poor stats?

Again, 4-5 ppg is a big deal and Wade's 20 on 50 true shooting isn't "poor" like Pippen's 15 ppg is

[Hey Yo]

most of that is due to poor fit with Lebron.

They were literally negative +/-

Wade years and years later in 2016 was leading playoff teams and winning series as a first option.
It had nothing to do with Wade missing a combined 41 regular season games in 2013 and 14? Which also included load management games in 2014.

[tpols]

It had nothing to do with Wade missing a combined 41 regular season games in 2013 and 14? Which also included load management games in 2014.

How many playoff games did he miss?

[LeCroix]

MJ's claim to fame for his 'biggest' carries

Pip had game scores of

11.5, 13.4, 10.8, 13.0, 13.0 for average of 12.34


kyrie/wade had game scores of
11.1, 14.9, 11.5 for average of 12.50

12.34 vs 12.50

this was it? :lol ABANDON THREAD

dont run now 3ball

i think i gotcha this timme

[RRR3]

Wade's 2 series...... 20 on 50% ts

Pippen' 96-98' PO... 18 on 50% ts

Pippen 93' Finals.... 20 on 46% ts

Pippen 91-93' PO.... 20 on 53.6 ts


So are you saying most pf Pippen's Playoffs career is poor stats?

Again, 4-5 ppg is a big deal and Wade's 20 on 50 true shooting isn't "poor" like Pippen's 15 ppg is
Pippen had a fair amount of poor scoring performances yeah. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t a great player. Both things can be true if you understand nuance.

[3ball]

dont run now 3ball

i think i gotcha this timme

Show me where lebron beat a good team with 15-16 on poor efficiency from sidekick - only MJ won with that

[LeCroix]

Show me where lebron beat a good team with 15-16 on poor efficiency from sidekick - only MJ won with that

show me where mj faced a good team whos second option scored over 26.8 and 27.5 ppg like 2017 warriors and 2018 warriors

NEXT

[AlternativeAcc.]

Show me where lebron beat a good team with 15-16 on poor efficiency from sidekick - only MJ won with that
Lebron beat the 60 win Celtics in '18 with 12ppg Love (no defense, no playmaking)

So he beat a 60 win team with less help across the board

And you can't criticize the comp because Jordan faced WOAT comp

[3ball]

show me where mj faced a good team whos second option scored over 26.8 and 27.5 ppg like 2017 warriors and 2018 warriors

NEXT

Lebron's own 2nd option averaged 29 ppg!!!... That's more than what you listed for the opponent

Yet he lost because it was my-turn-your-turn, not teamwork, and therefore easier to guard for the opponent (leaving them more capacity for offense)..

your-turn-my-turn doesn't wear down teams like ball movement, so opponents always have more capacity to go off offensively (14' Finals, 09' ECF, many more)

Your-turn-my-turn won an embarrassing 51 games with peak Kyrie, so the Cavs were underdogs instead of flirting with 70-win juggernauts like his peers (Kawhi, curry)

And don't mention the 18' Finals when lebron wet the bed in game 1 OT and Game 3 fourth quarter (losing 4th quarter leads)

[Hey Yo]

How many playoff games did he miss?
The playoffs weren't mentioned as just specific.

Bottom line is that he took load management (at times) during the 2014 season in order to hope to be healthy for the postseason.

[Roundball_Rock]

SRS Team Ranks

Jordan: 10th, 9th, 1st, 1st, 4th, 1st, 1st, 1st
LeBron: 7th,1st, 1st, 4th, 2nd, 7th, 6th, 4th, 7th, 14th
Kareem: 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 5th, 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 5th, 2nd

These are for years they made the conference finals or finals for MJ, LeBron and KAJ through 1985.

Poor MJ had to carry scrubs.

LeBron is the one with super teams! :mad:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png?w=1150

[3ball]

SRS Team Ranks

Jordan: 10th, 9th, 1st, 1st, 4th, 1st, 1st, 1st
LeBron: 7th,1st, 1st, 4th, 2nd, 7th, 6th, 4th, 7th, 14th
Kareem: 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 5th, 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 5th, 2nd

These are for years they made the conference finals or finals for MJ, LeBron and KAJ through 1985.

Poor MJ had to carry scrubs.

LeBron is the one with super teams! :mad:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png?w=1150


^^^ that shows how well teams with MJ played

But 538 said 11' Heat and 15' Cavs had the most on-paper talent since 1980, up until the 17' Warriors:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-15-2019/hYQBCO.gif


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/superteams-like-the-warriors-usually-underperform-will-the-kevin-durant-era-be-different/


So the "comp" argument is bogus when everyone knows that Lebron's teams had the most talent in the league, aka "not 6, not 7"

[LeCroix]

SRS Team Ranks

Jordan: 10th, 9th, 1st, 1st, 4th, 1st, 1st, 1st
LeBron: 7th,1st, 1st, 4th, 2nd, 7th, 6th, 4th, 7th, 14th
Kareem: 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 5th, 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 5th, 2nd

These are for years they made the conference finals or finals for MJ, LeBron and KAJ through 1985.

Poor MJ had to carry scrubs.

LeBron is the one with super teams! :mad:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png?w=1150

wow

/thread over

[LeCroix]

^^^ that shows how well teams with MJ played

But 538 said 11' Heat and 15' Cavs had the most on-paper talent since 1980, up until the 17' Warriors:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-15-2019/hYQBCO.gif


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/superteams-like-the-warriors-usually-underperform-will-the-kevin-durant-era-be-different/


So the "comp" argument is bogus when everyone knows that Lebron's teams had the most talent in the league, aka "not 6, not 7"

im still waiting on kevin love and kyrie irving to get 3rd in mvp votes like pippen

[Roundball_Rock]

We can't compare Pippen and Wade's shooting percentages at face value. 1) Wade didn't take threes, Pippen did during the second threepeat 2) Wade was playing with an all-time great facilitator (his FG % fell from 55 to 47 after LeBron left) and Pippen wasn't.

Here are the top 5 "cast members" in these finals and ECF's (Pippen and Wade bolded):

1991 ECF: Pippen 20.2, V. Johnson 17.0, Grant 13.2, Aguirre 9.4, BJ 8.5
1991 Finals: Pippen 17.5, Divac 16.1, Grant 13.9, Paxson 12.1, Perkins 11.3
1992 ECF: Pippen 17.4, Nance 16.1, Daughtery 15.7, Grant 14.3, Ehlo 11.0
1992 Finals: Pippen 18.1, Porter 12.5, Grant 11.3, Kersey 10.7, Paxson 7.6
1993 ECF: Pippen 15.7, Mason 10.1, Smith 9.6, Grant 8.5, Starks 8.4
1993 Finals: Majerle 17.0, Pippen 15.6, Grant 12.8, Dumas 12.7, BJ 11.2
1996 ECF: Pippen 16.6, Penny 15.6, Rodman 13.0, Kerr 9.0, Harper 8.6
1996 Finals: Kemp 18.9, Pippen 13.4, Rodman 10.2, Schrempf 9.9, Kukoc 9.6
1997 ECF: Hardaway 11.6, Pippen 10.8*, Harper 9.0, Rodman 7.1, Longley/Leonard 5.6
1997 Finals: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9, Russell 7.2, Hornacek 7.1, Kukoc 6.3
1998 ECF: Pippen 13.0, Kukoc 12.6, Smits 10.9, Davis 9.8, Harper 8.5
1998 Finals: Pippen 13.0, Kukoc 11.5, Stockton 10.0, Hornacek/Russell 6.1

*Pippen was at 12.7 through four games but played only 7 minutes in the fifth and final game of the 97’ ECF, which dragged his average down.

2011 ECF: Bosh 18.4, Boozer 12.1, Deng 11.4, Wade 11.1, Noah 7.8
2011 Finals: Wade 22.7, Terry 13.4, Chandler 11.0, Bosh 10.9, Marion 10.0
2012 ECF: Rondo 18.9, Wade 15.4, KG 13.2, Bosh 10.4, Chalmers 9.2
2012 Finals: Westbrook 18.9, Wade 16.4, Bosh 11.9, Battier 9.3, Harden/Chalmers 8.4
2013 ECF: Hibbert 16.9, Wade 11.7, West 11.2, Hill 9.6, Anderson 8.1
2013 Finals: Wade 14.9, Kawhi 14.2, Bosh 12.1, Parker 11.2, Green 10.2
2014 ECF: Wade 15.7, Bosh 12.0, West 11.7, Lance 11.3, Hibbert 8.9
2014 Finals: Kawhi 15.8, Duncan 12.9, Manu 10.9, Diaw 8.5, Mills 8.2

Wade isn't even on the 2014 Finals page because he had the 9th highest game score in the series, right between Patty Mills and Danny Green. If Pippen ever had a finals like that we would hear about it 24/7.

Wade was a great player but LeBron caught only the tail end of his prime and that shows in his playoff performances during LeBron's time in Miami. Meanwhile MJ got all of Pippen's prime, except 94' when MJ retired.

[3ball]

We can't compare Pippen and Wade's shooting percentages at face value. 1) Wade didn't take threes, Pippen did during the second threepeat 2) Wade was playing with an all-time great facilitator (his FG % fell from 55 to 47 after LeBron left) and Pippen wasn't.

Here are the top 5 "cast members" in these finals and ECF's (Pippen and Wade bolded):

1991 ECF: Pippen 20.2, V. Johnson 17.0, Grant 13.2, Aguirre 9.4, BJ 8.5
1991 Finals: Pippen 17.5, Divac 16.1, Grant 13.9, Paxson 12.1, Perkins 11.3
1992 ECF: Pippen 17.4, Nance 16.1, Daughtery 15.7, Grant 14.3, Ehlo 11.0
1992 Finals: Pippen 18.1, Porter 12.5, Grant 11.3, Kersey 10.7, Paxson 7.6
1993 ECF: Pippen 15.7, Mason 10.1, Smith 9.6, Grant 8.5, Starks 8.4
1993 Finals: Majerle 17.0, Pippen 15.6, Grant 12.8, Dumas 12.7, BJ 11.2
1996 ECF: Pippen 16.6, Penny 15.6, Rodman 13.0, Kerr 9.0, Harper 8.6
1996 Finals: Kemp 18.9, Pippen 13.4, Rodman 10.2, Schrempf 9.9, Kukoc 9.6
1997 ECF: Hardaway 11.6, Pippen 10.8*, Harper 9.0, Rodman 7.1, Longley/Leonard 5.6
1997 Finals: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9, Russell 7.2, Hornacek 7.1, Kukoc 6.3
1998 ECF: Pippen 13.0, Kukoc 12.6, Smits 10.9, Davis 9.8, Harper 8.5
1998 Finals: Pippen 13.0, Kukoc 11.5, Stockton 10.0, Hornacek/Russell 6.1

*Pippen was at 12.7 through four games but played only 7 minutes in the fifth and final game of the 97’ ECF, which dragged his average down.

2011 ECF: Bosh 18.4, Boozer 12.1, Deng 11.4, Wade 11.1, Noah 7.8
2011 Finals: Wade 22.7, Terry 13.4, Chandler 11.0, Bosh 10.9, Marion 10.0
2012 ECF: Rondo 18.9, Wade 15.4, KG 13.2, Bosh 10.4, Chalmers 9.2
2012 Finals: Westbrook 18.9, Wade 16.4, Bosh 11.9, Battier 9.3, Harden/Chalmers 8.4
2013 ECF: Hibbert 16.9, Wade 11.7, West 11.2, Hill 9.6, Anderson 8.1
2013 Finals: Wade 14.9, Kawhi 14.2, Bosh 12.1, Parker 11.2, Green 10.2
2014 ECF: Wade 15.7, Bosh 12.0, West 11.7, Lance 11.3, Hibbert 8.9
2014 Finals: Kawhi 15.8, Duncan 12.9, Manu 10.9, Diaw 8.5, Mills 8.2

Wade isn't even on the 2014 Finals page because he had the 9th highest game score in the series, right between Patty Mills and Danny Green. If Pippen ever had a finals like that we would hear about it 24/7.

Wade was a great player but LeBron caught only the tail end of his prime and that shows in his playoff performances during LeBron's time in Miami. Meanwhile MJ got all of Pippen's prime, except 94' when MJ retired.

So lebron never beat a good team with 15-16 ppg from sidekick, aka never had a carry-job against a good team?.. got it

So don't ever say lebron carried teams because its false - he never beat a top 5 SRS without at least 19-20 PPG from sidekick - he couldn't win with 15-16 ppg like mj... Let alone bad efficiency too

And you taught me that Pippen was outplayed by juwan Howard and Larry Johnson... Tim Hardaway too right? Stockton was a draw you said in 97'?.. Penny outscored him by 7 in 96'... Willis, Nique, and X-man ate his lunch in 92' and 93'.. And on and on..

[RRR3]

So lebron never beat a good team with 15-16 ppg from sidekick, aka never had a carry-job against a good team?.. got it

So don't ever say lebron carried teams because its false - he never beat a top 5 SRS without at least 19-20 PPG from sidekick - he couldn't win with 15-16 ppg like mj... Let alone bad efficiency too

And you taught me that Pippen was outplayed by juwan Howard and Larry Johnson... Tim Hardaway too right? Stockton was a draw you said in 97'?.. Penny outscored him by 7 in 96'... Willis, Nique, and X-man ate his lunch in 92' and 93'.. And on and on..
Beat the #4 SRS Hawks in the ECF in 15 with his highest scoring teammate being JR Smith at 18.0 PPG...

[Roundball_Rock]

The data speaks for itself. It isn't surprising. Any way we slice it, MJ had more help than LeBron or KAJ relative to their respective comp.


We can't compare Pippen and Wade's shooting percentages at face value. 1) Wade didn't take threes, Pippen did during the second threepeat 2) Wade was playing with an all-time great facilitator (his FG % fell from 55 to 47 after LeBron left) and Pippen wasn't.

Here are the top 5 "cast members" in these finals and ECF's (Pippen and Wade bolded):

1991 ECF: Pippen 20.2, V. Johnson 17.0, Grant 13.2, Aguirre 9.4, BJ 8.5
1991 Finals: Pippen 17.5, Divac 16.1, Grant 13.9, Paxson 12.1, Perkins 11.3
1992 ECF: Pippen 17.4, Nance 16.1, Daughtery 15.7, Grant 14.3, Ehlo 11.0
1992 Finals: Pippen 18.1, Porter 12.5, Grant 11.3, Kersey 10.7, Paxson 7.6
1993 ECF: Pippen 15.7, Mason 10.1, Smith 9.6, Grant 8.5, Starks 8.4
1993 Finals: Majerle 17.0, Pippen 15.6, Grant 12.8, Dumas 12.7, BJ 11.2
1996 ECF: Pippen 16.6, Penny 15.6, Rodman 13.0, Kerr 9.0, Harper 8.6
1996 Finals: Kemp 18.9, Pippen 13.4, Rodman 10.2, Schrempf 9.9, Kukoc 9.6
1997 ECF: Hardaway 11.6, Pippen 10.8*, Harper 9.0, Rodman 7.1, Longley/Leonard 5.6
1997 Finals: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9, Russell 7.2, Hornacek 7.1, Kukoc 6.3
1998 ECF: Pippen 13.0, Kukoc 12.6, Smits 10.9, Davis 9.8, Harper 8.5
1998 Finals: Pippen 13.0, Kukoc 11.5, Stockton 10.0, Hornacek/Russell 6.1

*Pippen was at 12.7 through four games but played only 7 minutes in the fifth and final game of the 97’ ECF, which dragged his average down.

2011 ECF: Bosh 18.4, Boozer 12.1, Deng 11.4, Wade 11.1, Noah 7.8
2011 Finals: Wade 22.7, Terry 13.4, Chandler 11.0, Bosh 10.9, Marion 10.0
2012 ECF: Rondo 18.9, Wade 15.4, KG 13.2, Bosh 10.4, Chalmers 9.2
2012 Finals: Westbrook 18.9, Wade 16.4, Bosh 11.9, Battier 9.3, Harden/Chalmers 8.4
2013 ECF: Hibbert 16.9, Wade 11.7, West 11.2, Hill 9.6, Anderson 8.1
2013 Finals: Wade 14.9, Kawhi 14.2, Bosh 12.1, Parker 11.2, Green 10.2
2014 ECF: Wade 15.7, Bosh 12.0, West 11.7, Lance 11.3, Hibbert 8.9
2014 Finals: Kawhi 15.8, Duncan 12.9, Manu 10.9, Diaw 8.5, Mills 8.2

Wade isn't even on the 2014 Finals page because he had the 9th highest game score in the series, right between Patty Mills and Danny Green. If Pippen ever had a finals like that we would hear about it 24/7.

Wade was a great player but LeBron caught only the tail end of his prime and that shows in his playoff performances during LeBron's time in Miami. Meanwhile MJ got all of Pippen's prime, except 94' when MJ retired.

[3ball]

The data speaks for itself. It isn't surprising. Any way we slice it, MJ had more help than LeBron or KAJ relative to their respective comp.

^^^ So jordan's 2nd option didn't have the best gamescore 3 times and Lebron's 4... whooptiwhoo

What's your point.. I bust your shit up real easy and you leave my points unrefuted and ran from... .So I win.. you stan a fraud.

And how many times are you going to run from my Kareem destruction where I show his PPG and RPG averages for 4 Finals that he won and his massive statistical deficit to mj thru 13 seasons?

[LeCroix]

^^^ So jordan's 2nd option didn't have the best gamescore 3 times and Lebron's 4... whooptiwhoo

What's your point.. I bust your shit up real easy and you leave my points unrefuted and ran from... .So I win.. you stan a fraud.

And how many times are you going to run from my Kareem destruction where I show his PPG and RPG averages for 4 Finals that he won and his massive statistical deficit to mj thru 13 seasons?

Mj only won 29 playoff series to kareems GOAT tier 36

Kareem also has #1 all time scoring, MJ is like #6??? :lol

[3ball]

Mj only won 29 playoff series to kareems GOAT tier 36

Kareem also has #1 all time scoring, MJ is like #6??? :lol

MJ produced more per game, so he's better.. who cares if Kareem held on extra years and was carried

Btw, Wade was only reduced to prime Pippen stats in 13-14.. his 13' Finals was prime Pippen, and his 14' Playoffs easily outproduced Pippen's 93' when both were trying to 3-peat

[1987_Lakers]

MJ produced more per game, so he's better.. who cares if Kareem held on extra years and was carried

Btw, Wade was only reduced to prime Pippen stats in 13-14.. his 13' Finals was prime Pippen, and his 14' Playoffs easily outproduced Pippen's 93' when both were trying to 3-peat

George Gervin has more ppg than Kobe, Kareem, & Bird. What a weak ass argument.

[3ball]

George Gervin has more ppg than Kobe, Kareem, & Bird. What a weak ass argument.

Much better PPG on better efficiency?.. in the playoffs?

Make sure you're comparing apples to apples

But the reality is thst Kareem needed the goat PG at the time to win anything... He needed WAY more help to lose way more Finals - 9 guys were all-stars alongside him compared to 1 for MJ

[1987_Lakers]

Much better PPG on better efficiency?.. in the playoffs?

Make sure you're comparing apples to apples

But the reality is thst Kareem needed the goat PG at the time to win anything... He needed WAY more help to lose way more Finals - 9 guys were all-stars alongside him compared tom1 for MJ

Gervin shot over 50% in the playoffs, 52% in the regular season, pretty efficient if you ask me.

[Roundball_Rock]

We can't compare Pippen and Wade's shooting percentages at face value. 1) Wade didn't take threes, Pippen did during the second threepeat 2) Wade was playing with an all-time great facilitator (his FG % fell from 55 to 47 after LeBron left) and Pippen wasn't.

Here are the top 5 "cast members" in these finals and ECF's (Pippen and Wade bolded):

1991 ECF: Pippen 20.2, V. Johnson 17.0, Grant 13.2, Aguirre 9.4, BJ 8.5
1991 Finals: Pippen 17.5, Divac 16.1, Grant 13.9, Paxson 12.1, Perkins 11.3
1992 ECF: Pippen 17.4, Nance 16.1, Daughtery 15.7, Grant 14.3, Ehlo 11.0
1992 Finals: Pippen 18.1, Porter 12.5, Grant 11.3, Kersey 10.7, Paxson 7.6
1993 ECF: Pippen 15.7, Mason 10.1, Smith 9.6, Grant 8.5, Starks 8.4
1993 Finals: Majerle 17.0, Pippen 15.6, Grant 12.8, Dumas 12.7, BJ 11.2
1996 ECF: Pippen 16.6, Penny 15.6, Rodman 13.0, Kerr 9.0, Harper 8.6
1996 Finals: Kemp 18.9, Pippen 13.4, Rodman 10.2, Schrempf 9.9, Kukoc 9.6
1997 ECF: Hardaway 11.6, Pippen 10.8*, Harper 9.0, Rodman 7.1, Longley/Leonard 5.6
1997 Finals: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9, Russell 7.2, Hornacek 7.1, Kukoc 6.3
1998 ECF: Pippen 13.0, Kukoc 12.6, Smits 10.9, Davis 9.8, Harper 8.5
1998 Finals: Pippen 13.0, Kukoc 11.5, Stockton 10.0, Hornacek/Russell 6.1

*Pippen was at 12.7 through four games but played only 7 minutes in the fifth and final game of the 97’ ECF, which dragged his average down.

2011 ECF: Bosh 18.4, Boozer 12.1, Deng 11.4, Wade 11.1, Noah 7.8
2011 Finals: Wade 22.7, Terry 13.4, Chandler 11.0, Bosh 10.9, Marion 10.0
2012 ECF: Rondo 18.9, Wade 15.4, KG 13.2, Bosh 10.4, Chalmers 9.2
2012 Finals: Westbrook 18.9, Wade 16.4, Bosh 11.9, Battier 9.3, Harden/Chalmers 8.4
2013 ECF: Hibbert 16.9, Wade 11.7, West 11.2, Hill 9.6, Anderson 8.1
2013 Finals: Wade 14.9, Kawhi 14.2, Bosh 12.1, Parker 11.2, Green 10.2
2014 ECF: Wade 15.7, Bosh 12.0, West 11.7, Lance 11.3, Hibbert 8.9
2014 Finals: Kawhi 15.8, Duncan 12.9, Manu 10.9, Diaw 8.5, Mills 8.2

Wade isn't even on the 2014 Finals page because he had the 9th highest game score in the series, right between Patty Mills and Danny Green. If Pippen ever had a finals like that we would hear about it 24/7.

Wade was a great player but LeBron caught only the tail end of his prime and that shows in his playoff performances during LeBron's time in Miami. Meanwhile MJ got all of Pippen's prime, except 94' when MJ retired.

Pippen was 1st in nearly all these series among "cast" members. When he wasn't he was 2nd.

Wade was not 1st a majority of the time. Wade was behind Boozer, Deng, Bosh in the 11' ECF. In the 2014 Finals he was 9th overall and 7th among "cast" members.

If Pippen ever had a Finals where he had the 9th highest game score (a Wade 14' or Kevin Johnson 93' type performance) or an ECF where he was 6th we would never hear the end of it. :lol

[3ball]

.
.
Updated OP stats:



Top 5 SRS teams that MJ/Lebron beat with poor stats from #2 (aka carry-jobs)



Jordan



1989 First Rd vs Cavs (#1 SRS, 57 wins)... 15.0 on 40% from Pippen

1996 Finals vs Sonics (#2 SRS, 64 wins)... 15.7 on 34% from Pippen

1997 ECF vs. Miami (#4 SRS, 61 wins)...... 16.8 on 42% from Pippen

1998 ECF vs. Pacers (#4 SRS, 58 wins)..... 16.6 on 39% from Pippen

1998 Finals vs Jazz (#5 SRS, 62 wins)...... 15.7 on 41% from Pippen



Lebton



2013 Finals vs Spurs (#3 SRS, 58 wins)..... 19.8 on 50.0 ts from Wade

2015 ECF vs. Hawks (#4 SRS, 60 wins)...... 18.0 on 66.4 ts from JR Smith


Lebron never beat a good team without at least 18 on crazy shooting from his sidekick, or 20+ ppg otherwise (never carried a team with a 15-16 sidekick, let alone bad efficiency too, like MJ did 5 times)


(Btw, Bosh averaged 23 ppg on 68 ts against the 11' Bulls, so whoever listed that series for Wade is a weasel. I almost didn't catch it.. :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

No matter how you parse the data, MJ had immense help. The real question is why does that make you all insecure? :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

Pippen was 1st in nearly all these series among "cast" members. When he wasn't he was 2nd.

Wade was not 1st a majority of the time. Wade was behind Boozer, Deng, Bosh in the 11' ECF. In the 2014 Finals he was 9th overall and 7th among "cast" members.

If Pippen ever had a Finals where he had the 9th highest game score (a Wade 14' or Kevin Johnson 93' type performance) or an ECF where he was 6th we would never hear the end of it. :lol

Wade didn't need to be #1 sidekick because Bosh took over sometimes, like the 11' ECF (23 on 60%)

Overall, lebrons sidekick didn't have the best gamescore 4 times and Jordan 3 times.. so who cares.. you wasted a lot of time on gamescore - there's other stats that differentiate the casts better and show Pippen was destroyed frequently by many different guys

And 14' Wade significantly out-produced 93' Pippen across the board in their respective playoff runs.. Wade had a bad Finals, but Pippen's 96' was equally bad, and his 93' was nearly as bad (45.9 ts)... Wade's 14' Finals and Mo's 09' ECF are the kind of series that jordan WINS (see the op)

[Mamba4Life]

.
.
Updated OP stats:



Top 5 SRS teams that MJ/Lebron beat with poor stats from #2 (aka carry-jobs)



Jordan



1989 First Rd vs Cavs (#1 SRS, 57 wins)... 15.0 on 40% from Pippen

1996 Finals vs Sonics (#2 SRS, 64 wins)... 15.7 on 34% from Pippen

1997 ECF vs. Miami (#4 SRS, 61 wins)...... 16.8 on 42% from Pippen

1998 ECF vs. Pacers (#4 SRS, 58 wins)..... 16.6 on 39% from Pippen

1998 Finals vs Jazz (#5 SRS, 62 wins)...... 15.7 on 41% from Pippen



Lebton



2013 Finals vs Spurs (#3 SRS, 58 wins)..... 19.8 on 50.0 ts from Wade

2015 ECF vs. Hawks (#4 SRS, 60 wins)...... 18.0 on 66.4 ts from JR Smith


Lebron never beat a good team without at least 18 on crazy shooting from his sidekick, or 20+ ppg otherwise (never carried a team with a 15-16 sidekick, let alone bad efficiency too, like MJ did 5 times)


(Btw, Bosh averaged 23 ppg on 68 ts against the 11' Bulls, so whoever listed that series for Wade is a weasel. I almost didn't catch it.. :lol

4 and 2 vs 12 and 10

[Mamba4Life]

Wade didn't need to be #1 sidekick because Bosh took over sometimes, like the 11' ECF (23 on 60%)

Overall, lebrons sidekick didn't have the best gamescore 4 times and Jordan 3 times.. so who cares.. you wasted a lot of time on gamescore - there's other stats that differentiate the casts better and show Pippen was destroyed frequently by many different guys

And 14' Wade significantly out-produced 93' Pippen across the board in their respective playoff runs.. Wade had a bad Finals, but Pippen's 96' was equally bad, and his 93' was nearly as bad (45.9 ts)... Wade's 14' Finals and Mo's 09' ECF are the kind of series that jordan WINS (see the op)

Do you admit Rodman outproduced MJ in the 1996 Finals?

[LeCroix]

Do you admit Rodman outproduced MJ in the 1996 Finals?

Shawn Kemp had a better GmSc then MJ in 96 Finals :lol

Pippen and Rodman bailed MJ out (again)

[3ball]

Do you admit Rodman outproduced MJ in the 1996 Finals?

The rodman theatrics were the most entertaining part of an otherwise boring series

But no, not MVP... Kemp dominated him so bad that Krause wanted to ship Pippen out for kemp

[LeCroix]

The rodman theatrics were the most entertaining part of an otherwise boring series

But no, not MVP... Kemp dominated him so bad that Krause wanted to ship Pippen out for kemp

We using Krause as a credible mastermind now? Carefulll with that :lol

[3ball]

We using Krause as a credible mastermind now? Carefulll with that :lol

I agree. People call what he did "optimal", like it's optimal to win the title with a scoring champ and force the #1 option to average 33.5 (4-5 more than everyone in playoff history)

Every series was a carry-job, aka 10-30 more than Pippen in every series with equal assists and more dpoy votes... :roll eyes:... Yeah, real optimal... Krause is just lucky MJ could achieve goat offenses despite his sidekick getting 15-16 with horrific efficiency and then nothing from Rodman either

[Roundball_Rock]

Wade didn't need to be #1 sidekick because Bosh took over sometimes, like the 11' ECF (23 on 60%)

Overall, lebrons sidekick didn't have the best gamescore 4 times and Jordan 3 times.

He just repeats the same dishonesty over and over again.

2011 ECF: Bosh 18.4, Boozer 12.1, Deng 11.4, Wade 11.1, Noah 7.8
2011 Finals: Wade 22.7, Terry 13.4, Chandler 11.0, Bosh 10.9, Marion 10.0
2012 ECF: Rondo 18.9, Wade 15.4, KG 13.2, Bosh 10.4, Chalmers 9.2
2012 Finals: Westbrook 18.9, Wade 16.4, Bosh 11.9, Battier 9.3, Harden/Chalmers 8.4
2013 ECF: Hibbert 16.9, Wade 11.7, West 11.2, Hill 9.6, Anderson 8.1
2013 Finals: Wade 14.9, Kawhi 14.2, Bosh 12.1, Parker 11.2, Green 10.2
2014 ECF: Wade 15.7, Bosh 12.0, West 11.7, Lance 11.3, Hibbert 8.9
2014 Finals: Kawhi 15.8, Duncan 12.9, Manu 10.9, Diaw 8.5, Mills 8.2 (all Spurs!)

Bosh "took over" once--and Wade was behind Boozer and Deng on the Bulls. Of these series the opposition had the better sidekick 4 times, Wade 3 times, and Bosh once. Do the math. Also note the 2014 finals where the entire top 5 "cast" members were all Spurs. :oldlol:

With the Bulls:


1991 ECF: Pippen 20.2, V. Johnson 17.0, Grant 13.2, Aguirre 9.4, BJ 8.5
1991 Finals: Pippen 17.5, Divac 16.1, Grant 13.9, Paxson 12.1, Perkins 11.3
1992 ECF: Pippen 17.4, Nance 16.1, Daughtery 15.7, Grant 14.3, Ehlo 11.0
1992 Finals: Pippen 18.1, Porter 12.5, Grant 11.3, Kersey 10.7, Paxson 7.6
1993 ECF: Pippen 15.7, Mason 10.1, Smith 9.6, Grant 8.5, Starks 8.4
1993 Finals: Majerle 17.0, Pippen 15.6, Grant 12.8, Dumas 12.7, BJ 11.2
1996 ECF: Pippen 16.6, Penny 15.6, Rodman 13.0, Kerr 9.0, Harper 8.6
1996 Finals: Kemp 18.9, Pippen 13.4, Rodman 10.2, Schrempf 9.9, Kukoc 9.6
1997 ECF: Hardaway 11.6, Pippen 10.8*, Harper 9.0, Rodman 7.1, Longley/Leonard 5.6
1997 Finals: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9, Russell 7.2, Hornacek 7.1, Kukoc 6.3
1998 ECF: Pippen 13.0, Kukoc 12.6, Smits 10.9, Davis 9.8, Harper 8.5
1998 Finals: Pippen 13.0, Kukoc 11.5, Stockton 10.0, Hornacek/Russell 6.1

So Pippen was #1 in 9 of 12 series, and 10 of 12 given the injury in Game 5 is what pushed Hardaway past him in the 97' ECF. When he wasn't 1st he was 2nd. Wade was 4th and 6th in a ECF and Finals respectively.

Also note that Kukoc was #2 (behind Pippen) in two series--outproducing Stockton and Reggie Miller. Recall Stockton, Miller are some of the players MJ stans point to as "great comp." Also note that Kevin Johnson doesn't even appear on this list. That is how bad he was in the finals. Yet he is another "great comp" player we hear about from MJ stans.

The Bulls had a 7-5 edge in having a majority of the top 5 cast members; for LeBron's teams it was a 5-13 deficit.

Any sane person can see what all this evidence says. More info at http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480098-LeBron-and-Jordan-s-Supporting-Casts-Compared-in-NBA-Finals-and-Conference-Finals&p=13996207#post13996207 --a thread MJ stans are too scared to enter. :pimp:

[Roundball_Rock]

Don't forget what LeBron had in Cleveland...


2007 ECF: Wallace 12.5, Hamilton 12.3, Z 10.7, Gibson 10.5, Webber 8.1
2007 Finals: Parker 16.2, Manu 11.6, Gooden 9.0, Gibson 8.5, Varejeo 7.9
2015 Finals: Iggy 13.6, Green 12.1, Mozgov 11.8, T. Thompson 11.2, K. Thompson 9.5 (Irving** 21.1 in one game)
2016 ECF: Irving 16.9, DeRozan 14.9, Love 12.8, Smith 8.8, Biyombo 8.1
2016 Finals: Irving 19.1, Green 17.2 , K. Thompson 11.9, T. Thompson 11.0, Iggy 9.9
2017 ECF: Irving 21.3, Love 21.2, Crowder 12.6, T. Thompson 12.1, Horford 8.7
2017 Finals: Curry 24.1, Irving 18.2, Love 14.7, K. Thompson 10.6, Green 9.5
2018 ECF: Brown 12.1, Tatum 12.0, Rozier 10.8, Smart 8.5, Love 8.2
2018 Finals: Curry 20.1, Love 15.6, Green 13.7, K. Thompson 9.6, Iggy 8.4

Cavs had the #1 "cast member" 3 times, the opposition 6 times. The Cavs had a majority of the top five cast members 3 times, the opposition 6 times.

Take particular note of the 2018 ECF and 2018 Finals.

Again, any sane observer can see what this data says.

[3ball]

Don't forget what LeBron had in Cleveland...


2007 ECF: Wallace 12.5, Hamilton 12.3, Z 10.7, Gibson 10.5, Webber 8.1
2007 Finals: Parker 16.2, Manu 11.6, Gooden 9.0, Gibson 8.5, Varejeo 7.9
2015 Finals: Iggy 13.6, Green 12.1, Mozgov 11.8, T. Thompson 11.2, K. Thompson 9.5 (Irving** 21.1 in one game)
2016 ECF: Irving 16.9, DeRozan 14.9, Love 12.8, Smith 8.8, Biyombo 8.1
2016 Finals: Irving 19.1, Green 17.2 , K. Thompson 11.9, T. Thompson 11.0, Iggy 9.9
2017 ECF: Irving 21.3, Love 21.2, Crowder 12.6, T. Thompson 12.1, Horford 8.7
2017 Finals: Curry 24.1, Irving 18.2, Love 14.7, K. Thompson 10.6, Green 9.5
2018 ECF: Brown 12.1, Tatum 12.0, Rozier 10.8, Smart 8.5, Love 8.2
2018 Finals: Curry 20.1, Love 15.6, Green 13.7, K. Thompson 9.6, Iggy 8.4

Cavs had the #1 "cast member" 3 times, the opposition 6 times. The Cavs had a majority of the top five cast members 3 times, the opposition 6 times.

Take particular note of the 2018 ECF and 2018 Finals.

Again, any sane observer can see what this data says.
^^° again, those losing years match MJ's losing years in the 80's

I destroy you again.. :facepalm:.. I'm blushing and taking another victory smoke

So lebron's losing years match MJ's, and his winning years do as well - those years show that lebron's sidekick missed the best gamescore 4 times and Jordan 3 times..

And 14' Wade significantly out-produced 93' Pippen across the board in their respective playoff runs.. Wade had a bad Finals, but Pippen's 96' was equally bad, and his 93' was nearly as bad (45.9 ts)... Wade's 14' Finals and Mo's 09' ECF are the kind of series that jordan WINS (see the op)

[86Celtics]

George Gervin has more ppg than Kobe, Kareem, & Bird. What a weak ass argument.

Gervin was the top scorer on 4 different occasions. He was a great scorer. I don't understand what this is supposed to refute.

[3ball]

.
thread cliffs

Lebron never had carry-jobs against good teams - he never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick - he only beat good teams with good sidekick performances

Otoh, mj beat good teams 5 times with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so his ability to have carry-jobs against good teams is a major advantage over lebron and all players.. he offset poor teammate performance by averaging 4-5 more than everyone in playoff history

[Shooter]

.
thread cliffs

Lebron never had carry-jobs against good teams - he never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick - he only beat good teams with good sidekick performances

Otoh, mj beat good teams 5 times with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so his ability to have carry-jobs against good teams is a major advantage over lebron and all players.. he offset poor teammate performance by averaging 4-5 more than everyone in playoff history

https://i.postimg.cc/8C4kvxLC/pip-an-mj-post.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/YCVsFVFY/Mike_defense.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/52pLFfYT/Ker_levell.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/7LhqbnWW/98finals.png

[3ball]

..
Lebron never beat a good team (top 5 SRS) with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so he has zero carry-jobs against good teams in 18 years of playing!!!

:roll:.. :roll::roll:.. :roll::roll:


F...R...A...U...D

[AirBonner]

MJ without Pip?

[3ball]

MJ without Pip?


Pippen is the least star help of anyone in the top 10 - that's why MJ ranks #1

Infact, Jordan is the only player that won all his rings with a true 2nd option that averaged far less - everyone else needed a 1b (equal partner) for some of their rings

[3ball]

.
1989 Cavs..... #1 SRS... #1 Net Rating... 3 all-stars... +800 preseason odds.
2009 Magic... #4 SRS... #4 Net Rating... 2 all-stars.. +2000 preseason odds


Mo and Pippen both wet the bed, but Jordan still won due to his superior play and clutch.. Btw, the 09' Cavs had the #3 defense and #11 for the 89' Bulls.

The victory changed the fortunes of the Bulls' franchise, while Lebron's upset loss to Dwight was a foundation for his "decision" to start stacking the deck

[And1AllDay]

https://i.postimg.cc/8C4kvxLC/pip-an-mj-post.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/YCVsFVFY/Mike_defense.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/52pLFfYT/Ker_levell.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/7LhqbnWW/98finals.png

/thread

[3ball]

.
Jordan's low seed beat a better opponent than the 21' Suns:


89' Cavs..... #1 SRS.. #1 net rating.... +800 preseason odds.. 3 all-stars
21' Suns..... #3 SRS.. #3 net rating.. +4000 preseason odds.. 2 all-stars


Otoh, Lebron never had a low seed that beat a top team or had a deep run - he infact never had low seeds in the playoffs because he always got a couple lottery years to develop into a high seed before entering the playoffs in 06' or 20'..

[3ball]

.

Jordan's low seed beat a better opponent than the 21' Suns:


89' Cavs..... #1 SRS.. #1 net rating.... +800 preseason odds.. 3 all-stars
21' Suns..... #3 SRS.. #3 net rating.. +4000 preseason odds.. 2 all-stars


Otoh, Lebron never had a low seed that beat a top team or had a deep run - he infact never had low seeds in the playoffs because he always got a couple lottery years to develop into a high seed before entering the playoffs in 06' or 20'..





https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AgreeableAmazingIncatern.webp

[And1AllDay]

https://i.postimg.cc/8C4kvxLC/pip-an-mj-post.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/YCVsFVFY/Mike_defense.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/52pLFfYT/Ker_levell.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/7LhqbnWW/98finals.png


/thread

[red1]

1a 1b


lebron and jordan



toss up. could go either way.

[3ball]

1a 1b


lebron and jordan



toss up. could go either way.


You wish - it took Jordan 9 years to convince the majority that he was goat, while Lebron hasn't done it in 18:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w

[red1]

complete toss-up.



could go either way.

[red1]

https://i.postimg.cc/8C4kvxLC/pip-an-mj-post.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/YCVsFVFY/Mike_defense.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/52pLFfYT/Ker_levell.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/7LhqbnWW/98finals.png


/thread

:applause:

[3ball]

complete toss-up.



could go either way.


And Lebron is actually falling in the rankings.. other guys are coming up so the media will say "top 10" for lebron to be safe... Super-teaming to win is his legacy

[red1]

And Lebron is actually falling in the rankings.. other guys are coming up so the media will say "top 10" for lebron to be safe... Super-teaming to win is his legacy

I understand.


FYI I always push back against anyone who wants you banned. Watching you lose your mind has been hilarious. :oldlol:


I want to see your posts every time Im back for playoffs and big games.

[3ba11]

a reminder of the FACTS

[Vino24]

a reminder of the FACTS

You literally got beat to a pulp in this thread. I honestly feel kinda bad for you

[3ba11]

You literally got beat to a pulp in this thread. I honestly feel kinda bad for you


Ad-hominens and sarcasm doesn't win a thread... I can just state the facts and that looks bad by itself..

Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so he never had a carry-job against a good team, and we already know he can't carry the scoring load while winning a Finals..

His high scoring is too ball-dominant (09') or inefficient at the extra jumpshooting volume (15') to beat top teams (can't win with high scoring)

[000]

.
1989 First Rd vs Cavs (#1 SRS, 57 wins)... 15.0 on 40% from Pippen

3-2 leads as underdog:

1989 Pippen 1st rd - 15 on 51% TS%
2006 Ilgauskas 2nd rd (first 5 gms) - 10 on 47% TS%

[3ba11]

3-2 leads as underdog:

1989 Pippen 1st rd - 15 on 51% TS%
2006 Ilgauskas 2nd rd (first 5 gms) - 10 on 47% TS%


The problem is that Arenas/Hughes made the 2nd Round in 05', but then Lebron stole Hughes to beat Arenas in 06'.

So Lebron almost always had better casts than his Eastern opponents, which is why he always had high seeds every year.. He infact failed to carry lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to low playoff seeds in 04', 05', or 19' - so he never carried his worst teams or low seeds in the playoffs like Jordan did and and only made the playoffs with high seeds..

Furthermore, Lebron got 3 years to develop his team into a high seed before entering the 06' playoffs, while MJ was forced to carry lottery casts and 8 seeds in Year 1.. So Lebron had veteran high seeds in a conference that 1-star teams were winning (Iverson, Kidd, Dwight), while Jordan had rookie low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win.. (Lebron also had the East all-star center and his opponent's sidekick, along with the future COY and top defenses... aka HIGH SEEDS, while MJ had rookie low seeds).

[000]

The problem is that Arenas/Hughes made the 2nd Round in 05', but then Lebron stole Hughes to beat Arenas in 06'.

So Lebron almost always had better casts than his Eastern opponents, which is why he always had high seeds every year.. He infact failed to carry lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to low playoff seeds in 04', 05', or 19' - so he never carried his worst teams or low seeds in the playoffs like Jordan did and and only made the playoffs with high seeds..

Furthermore, Lebron got 3 years to develop his team into a high seed before entering the playoffs, while MJ was forced to carry lottery casts and 8 seeds in Year 1.. So Lebron had veteran high seeds in a conference that 1-star teams were winning (Iverson, Kidd, Dwight), while Jordan had rookie low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win.
:rolleyes:

Hughes played only 3 gms in the 2nd rd, and averaged 8.6 ppg on 40% TS... all the cavs' wins came without him

[Vino24]

:rolleyes:

Hughes played only 3 gms in the 2nd rd, and averaged 9 ppg... all the cavs wins came without him
3ball? Brutal reality

[3ba11]

:rolleyes:

Hughes played only 3 gms in the 2nd rd, and averaged 8.6 ppg on 40% TS... all the cavs wins came without him


Lebron weakened his opponent by stealing their sidekick:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-15-2021/t3TEzx.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-15-2021/LIlDOj.gif


So Lebron had the East all-star center and his opponent's sidekick, along with the future COY and top defenses... aka HIGH SEEDS in a conference that 1-star teams were winning, while MJ had rookie low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win.

[000]

Lebron weakened his opponent by stealing their sidekick:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-15-2021/t3TEzx.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-15-2021/LIlDOj.gif


So Lebron had the East all-star center and his opponent's sidekick, along with the future COY and top defenses... aka HIGH SEEDS in a conference that 1-star teams were winning, while MJ had rookie low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win.
So in other words, Lebron's teams should never make any free agency moves... EVER... that's verboten... even if the new player plays 35 games in RS and performs like 1989 Pippen in the rare ones he's present for:

2006 Hughes: 15.5 on 50% TS%
1989 Pippen: 14.4 on 52% TS%




PS: Hughes averaged 12 ppg on 39% TS in the 1st round, while Arenas had 2005 allstar Jamison & 2007 allstar Caron Butler

[3ba11]

So in other words, Lebron's teams should never make any free agency moves... EVER... that's verboten... even if the new player plays 35 games in RS and performs like 1989 Pippen in the rare ones he's present for:

2006 Hughes: 15.5 on 50% TS%
1989 Pippen: 14.4 on 52% TS%





^^^^ So Hughes was 89' Pippen alongside Lebron's ball-dominance, but peak Pippen alongside off-guard Arenas' elite jumpshooting skill and pure scoring (MJ style).. Hughes was 22/6/5 and 1st team defense in 05' alongside Arenas.






PS: Hughes averaged 12 ppg on 39% TS in the 1st round, while Arenas had 2005 allstar Jamison & 2007 allstar Caron Butler





Jamison averaged 32/10 vs Lebron in 2007 Playoffs, while Middleton got 24/6 vs Crowder in 21' Finals.. .. So Jamison had better peak ability and better career stats than Middleton across the board, yet Lebron lost and Giannis won.

Lebron and Giannis are the only guys to lose twice in a row with 60-win 1 seeds, except Giannis stayed 1 more year and won, while LeBiles quit and let Dirk win the 1-star, organic ring that was up for grabs.

[ELITEpower23]

# of top 25 srs teams faced

lebron 5
jordan 1

bye

1st post slays :rockon:

[3ba11]

# of top 25 srs teams faced

lebron 5
jordan 1

bye



# of star scorers at 3rd option (super-teams):

Jordan.... none
Lebron.... Heat/Cavs/Lakers


# of equal-scoring partners to attract equal-defensive attention on playoff runs so maximum defensive attention isn't faced:

Jordan.... none (always faced max attention)
Lebron.... 11' Wade, 16' Kyrie, 20' AD



So Lebron had more help and hand-picked the on-paper preseason favorite from 2011-2016, but weak brand of ball caused them to fall to underdog or loser every year by the Finals.

[3ba11]

:rolleyes:

Hughes played only 3 gms in the 2nd rd, and averaged 8.6 ppg on 40% TS... all the cavs' wins came without him


Hughes played all 6 games in the 2006 1st Round against Arenas, so Lebron won his first playoff series by using his opponent's sidekick.. (Arenas/Hughes made the 2nd Round together in 05')... :confusedshrug:

Lebron's theft of his opponent's sidekick confirms that he always had a top cast in the East - this is further confirmed by him having high seeds every year.. His low seeds missed the playoffs in 04', 05' and 19', so Lebron never had to carry his worst teams/low seeds in the playoffs like MJ did.. The reality is that Lebron failed to carry lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to low playoff seeds in 04', 05', or 19' - so he never carried his worst teams or low seeds in the playoffs like Jordan did and and only made the playoffs with high seeds..

Furthermore, Lebron's high seeds were developed into high seeds - Lebron got 3 years to develop his team high seeds before entering the 06' playoffs, while MJ was forced to carry 8 seeds in Year 1.. So Lebron had veteran high seeds in a conference that 1-star teams were winning (Iverson, Kidd, Dwight), while Jordan had rookie low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win.. (Lebron had the East all-star center and his opponent's sidekick, along with the future COY and top defenses... aka HIGH SEEDS, while MJ had rookie low seeds).

[000]

Hughes played all 6 games in the 2006 1st Round against Arenas, so Lebron won his first playoff series by using his opponent's sidekick.. (Arenas/Hughes made the 2nd Round together in 05')... :confusedshrug:

Lebron and Arenas both had 2 sidekicks (ilgauskas/hughes & jamison/butler) in 2006, so it's ridiculous to claim Lebron had an excessive amount of help - he had the same help in fact


^^^^ So Hughes was 89' Pippen alongside Lebron's ball-dominance, but peak Pippen alongside off-guard Arenas' elite jumpshooting skill and pure scoring (MJ style).. Hughes was 22/6/5 and 1st team defense in 05' alongside Arenas.

Actually,

1) Hughes's stats in Cleveland are about the same as his career stats
2) Hughes played even worse after being traded
3) Hughes having the same numbers as Pippen once doesn't mean he's the same player - by your logic, guys like Kevin Martin (25 on 60%TS) and Michael Redd (27 on 59%TS) are comparable players to Ray Allen, and Jerry Stackhouse is in the same stratosphere as guys like Dominique or Iverson

shit, why not compare Mike James to Pippen too, he averaged 20 & 6 after all...:facepalm

[000]

Btw where do you keep all these responses, I assume you must have like a Google Docs for that right? Serious question.

[000]

3-2 leads as underdog:

1989 Pippen 1st rd - 15 on 51% TS%
2006 Ilgauskas 2nd rd (first 5 gms) - 10 on 47% TS%
Anyway, let's get back on track

[3ba11]

Anyway, let's get back on track


Lebron failed to carry lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to low playoff seeds in 04', 05', or 19' - so he never carried his worst teams or low seeds in the playoffs like Jordan did and and only made the playoffs with high seeds..

Furthermore, Lebron's high seeds were developed into high seeds - Lebron got 3 years to develop his team high seeds before entering the 06' playoffs, while MJ was forced to carry 8 seeds in Year 1.. So Lebron had veteran high seeds in a conference that 1-star teams were winning (Iverson, Kidd, Dwight), while Jordan had rookie low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win..

(Lebron had the East all-star center and his opponent's sidekick, along with the future COY and top defenses... aka HIGH SEEDS, while MJ had rookie low seeds).

[000]

Lebron failed to carry lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to low playoff seeds in 04', 05', or 19' - so he never carried his worst teams or low seeds in the playoffs like Jordan did and and only made the playoffs with high seeds..

Furthermore, Lebron's high seeds were developed into high seeds - Lebron got 3 years to develop his team high seeds before entering the 06' playoffs, while MJ was forced to carry 8 seeds in Year 1.. So Lebron had veteran high seeds in a conference that 1-star teams were winning (Iverson, Kidd, Dwight), while Jordan had rookie low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win..

(Lebron had the East all-star center and his opponent's sidekick, along with the future COY and top defenses... aka HIGH SEEDS, while MJ had rookie low seeds).
MJ had 4 healthy seasons to develop his team before the 1989 series, and he got better production from his sidekick than Lebron did, which is what the thread is about

And quit spamming this copypasta because I don't subscribe to the 1-9 meme... get some new material

[3ba11]

MJ had 4 healthy seasons to develop his team before the 1989 series, and he got better production from his sidekick than Lebron did, which is what the thread is about

And quit spamming this copypasta because I don't subscribe to the 1-9 meme... get some new material


89' Jordan beat the #1 SRS Cavs with 15 on 40% from Pippen

Whereas Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing)

So it's a huge trend for Lebron.. He can't have carry-jobs against good teams (can't beat good teams with teammates wetting the bed) and he can't carry the scoring load on the Finals level because he can't win with high scoring - his high scoring is too ball-dominant (09') or inefficient at the higher jumpshooting volume (15') to beat the good teams.

[000]

89' Jordan beat the #1 SRS Cavs with 15 on 40% from Pippen

Whereas Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing)
Both got a 3-2 lead

[3ba11]

Both got a 3-2 lead


Pistons were #6 SRS and not a good team - so Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing)

And Boobie closed the series in Game 6 with 31 points while Lebron wet the bed (3-11 for 20 pts)

Heck, the Pistons were a 53-win, 1 seed and the Cavs were 50-win 2 seed... So it was hardly an upset and doesn't compare to 89' Jordan who beat 2 better opponents (Cavs & Knicks) with less help (47-win, 6 seed).

Ultimately, Lebron had the East all-star center and his opponent's sidekick, along with the future COY and top defenses... aka HIGH SEEDS in a conference that 1-star teams were winning, while MJ had rookie low seeds in a super-team conference

[3ba11]

Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing)

He also never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load in Finals)..

He lacks the elite jumpshooting skill needed to defeat maximum defensive attention..

Furthermore, he can't carry the scoring load with sufficient brand to beat Finals teams, so he needs all-time scorers and elite 1st options at sidekick that nearly match his Finals scoring.

Otoh, Jordan possessed the elite jumpshooting skill needed to defeat maximum defensive attention.. He could also carry the scoring load with sufficient brand to beat Finals teams, so he could win with secondary producers at sidekick like Pippen or Wiggins that averaged far less in the Finals.

[8Ball]

We already covered this:

LeBron's accomplishments and dominance are simply superior to everyone's

In 3 pointer history, only LeBron went to 10 finals. Only LeBron has made 18 all-nba teams out of 19 seasons. Only LeBron has made 13 all-nba 1st teams. Beat a 73 win team. Only LeBron can come back from 3-1 deficit against 73 win team and win the greatest championship of all time. Only LeBron has all time scoring record + 10 000 in assists as the teams playmaker. Only LeBron can lead all players in all categories points, assists, rebounds, steals, blocks in a playoff series. Only LeBron went to 3 different teams and built them into championship contender. Only LeBron has the most 30 PER playoff runs. Only LeBron can average 25 ppg minimum for 18 seasons straight. Only LeBron can drag bag teams to finals 2007 / 2018.


We can go on listing accomplishments of Lebron that no one in history can match their caliber or dominance.

[3ba11]

We already covered this:

LeBron's accomplishments and dominance are simply superior to everyone's

In 3 pointer history, only LeBron went to 10 finals. Only LeBron has made 18 all-nba teams out of 19 seasons. Only LeBron has made 13 all-nba 1st teams. Beat a 73 win team. Only LeBron can come back from 3-1 deficit against 73 win team and win the greatest championship of all time. Only LeBron has all time scoring record + 10 000 in assists as the teams playmaker. Only LeBron can lead all players in all categories points, assists, rebounds, steals, blocks in a playoff series. Only LeBron went to 3 different teams and built them into championship contender. Only LeBron has the most 30 PER playoff runs. Only LeBron can average 25 ppg minimum for 18 seasons straight. Only LeBron can drag bag teams to finals 2007 / 2018.


We can go on listing accomplishments of Lebron that no one in history can match their caliber or dominance.



In 5 less seasons, Jordan won:

2 more titles
1 more MVP
2 more FMVP,
4 more all-defense,
9 more scoring titles
3 more steals titles
2 more 3-peats
1 more season of MVP/DPOY


And Lebron never "built" any team

He was gifted Year 1 favorites in 2011 and 2015 (easiest path possible), so he didn't build shit

You're just lying because you fell for a fraud - lying is the only way you can make a case

Furthermore, Lebron had MANY bad series and Jordan none..

Specifically, Lebron averaged 21 on 34% for the last 3 games of the 10' ECSF to lose a 2-1 lead as a massive favorite.. Then he choked in the 11' Finals and averaged 24 on 35% in the 07' Finals and 08' semis.. The 21' first round was another bed-wetting and he has many series where he averaged 22-24 ppg and wasn't dominant (14' ECF, 16' first round, and MANY more).. Teammates matched or led him in scoring for entire title runs (11', 16', 20').. That's nowhere near Jordan

And Lebron was All-NBA with nothing else, so Jordan's All-NBA was more dominant- Jordan's All-NBA included scoring title, steals titles and he was always top 7 DPOY.. That's a more dominant All-NBA player

Btw, imagine if Pippen went to the 93' Finals and destroyed MVP Barkley - Jordan would get laughed at if he called that series his goat accomplishment.. Yet that's exactly what Kyrie did to MVP Curry in 16'... Kyrie was an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention, so Lebron never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load in Finals).. We saw what happens when he faced maximum defensive attention in the 07' or 15' Finals - he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn.. He simply lacks the elite jumpshooting skill needed to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals) or carry bed-wetting teammates over top 5 SRS team (carry-job against a good team).

[3ba11]

That's why Lebron can't win without AD tonight or with a bed-wetting Mo in the 2009 ECF

He lacks the elite jumpshooting skill needed to carry bed-wetting teammates over top teams (no carry-jobs over top teams in 2 decades of playing) - this manifest itself in the Finals where he cannot defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals) and therefore needs all-time scoring help like Kareem, AD, Wade or Kyrie...