LeBron and Jordan's Supporting Casts Compared in NBA Finals and Conference Finals

[Roundball_Rock]

This looks at who the top 5 "supporting cast" producers were in each NBA finals and ECF during their respective finals runs by game score. I wanted to include Kareem but the data does not exist for Kareem's prime.

Top Line Results

Best cast member: Bulls 9x, opponents 3x (one due to injury)
Majority of top five cast members: Bulls 7, opposition 5
Top two cast members: Bulls 2, opposition 0
Four of top five cast members: Bulls 1, opposition 0

The Bulls have clear advantages any way you slice it.

Best cast member: 11 for LeBron’s opponents, 7 for LeBron’s teams
Majority of top five cast members: 13 for LeBron’s opponents, 5 for LeBron’s teams
Top two cast members: 6 for LeBron’s opponents, 2 for LeBron’s teams
Four of top five cast members: 4 for LeBron’s opponents, 0.5 for LeBron’s teams (one tie for 5th)
All five top cast members: 1 for LeBron’s opponents, 0 for LeBron’s teams

LeBron's teams have large disadvantages by any way of measuring it.

Raw Data

1991 ECF: Pippen 20.2, V. Johnson 17.0, Grant 13.2, Aguirre 9.4, BJ 8.5
1991 Finals: Pippen 17.5, Divac 16.1, Grant 13.9, Paxson 12.1, Perkins 11.3
1992 ECF: Pippen 17.4, Nance 16.1, Daughtery 15.7, Grant 14.3, Ehlo 11.0
1992 Finals: Pippen 18.1, Porter 12.5, Grant 11.3, Kersey 10.7, Paxson 7.6
1993 ECF: Pippen 15.7, Mason 10.1, Smith 9.6, Grant 8.5, Starks 8.4
1993 Finals: Majerle 17.0, Pippen 15.6, Grant 12.8, Dumas 12.7, BJ 11.2
1996 ECF: Pippen 16.6, Penny 15.6, Rodman 13.0, Kerr 9.0, Harper 8.6
1996 Finals: Kemp 18.9, Pippen 13.4, Rodman 10.2, Schrempf 9.9, Kukoc 9.6
1997 ECF: Hardaway 11.6, Pippen 10.8*, Harper 9.0, Rodman 7.1, Longley/Leonard 5.6
1997 Finals: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9, Russell 7.2, Hornacek 7.1, Kukoc 6.3
1998 ECF: Pippen 13.0, Kukoc 12.6, Smits 10.9, Davis 9.8, Harper 8.5
1998 Finals: Pippen 13.0, Kukoc 11.5, Stockton 10.0, Hornacek/Russell 6.1

*Pippen was at 12.7 through four games but played only 7 minutes in the fifth and final game of the 97’ ECF, which dragged his average down.

2007 ECF: Wallace 12.5, Hamilton 12.3, Z 10.7, Gibson 10.5, Webber 8.1
2007 Finals: Parker 16.2, Manu 11.6, Gooden 9.0, Gibson 8.5, Varejeo 7.9
2011 ECF: Bosh 18.4, Boozer 12.1, Deng 11.4, Wade 11.1, Noah 7.8
2011 Finals: Wade 22.7, Terry 13.4, Chandler 11.0, Bosh 10.9, Marion 10.0
2012 ECF: Rondo 18.9, Wade 15.4, KG 13.2, Bosh 10.4, Chalmers 9.2
2012 Finals: Westbrook 18.9, Wade 16.4, Bosh 11.9, Battier 9.3, Harden/Chalmers 8.4
2013 ECF: Hibbert 16.9, Wade 11.7, West 11.2, Hill 9.6, Anderson 8.1
2013 Finals: Wade 14.9, Kawhi 14.2, Bosh 12.1, Parker 11.2, Green 10.2
2014 ECF: Wade 15.7, Bosh 12.0, West 11.7, Lance 11.3, Hibbert 8.9
2014 Finals: Kawhi 15.8, Duncan 12.9, Manu 10.9, Diaw 8.5, Mills 8.2
2015 ECF: Teague 14.9, Smith 14.2, Irving 11.5, T. Thompson 11.3, Millsap 9.8
2015 Finals: Iggy 13.6, Green 12.1, Mozgov 11.8, T. Thompson 11.2, K. Thompson 9.5 (Irving** 21.1 in one game)
2016 ECF: Irving 16.9, DeRozan 14.9, Love 12.8, Smith 8.8, Biyombo 8.1
2016 Finals: Irving 19.1, Green 17.2 , K. Thompson 11.9, T. Thompson 11.0, Iggy 9.9
2017 ECF: Irving 21.3, Love 21.2, Crowder 12.6, T. Thompson 12.1, Horford 8.7
2017 Finals: Curry 24.1, Irving 18.2, Love 14.7, K. Thompson 10.6, Green 9.5
2018 ECF: Brown 12.1, Tatum 12.0, Rozier 10.8, Smart 8.5, Love 8.2
2018 Finals: Curry 20.1, Love 15.6, Green 13.7, K. Thompson 9.6, Iggy 8.4

**Irving played only Game 1.

[LeCroix]

crazy that jordan had more help and won less playoff series


kareem = goat tier = 36 playoffs series won
lebron = baby goat tier = 35 playoffs series won
.
.
.
jordan = 29 :(

my new top 3 is

lebron
kareem
bill russell

mj is top 10 tho

[Roundball_Rock]

All that help and his stans are all over the internet every day saying poor Mike had no help and oh what he could have done if he had help like every other legend--except him--had! :lol

[LeCroix]

All that help and his stans are all over the internet every day saying poor Mike had no help and oh what he could have done if he had help like every other legend--except him--had! :lol

what a stooge :lol

i hAd nO hAlpZ

The funny thing is Kareem and Lebron also faced much tougher competition and still won more playoff series

shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiid

[Docs Orders]

The biggest upside Jordan had that nobody ever compares is the lucrative amounts of draft picks the Bulls has between 85-90. Dozens upon dozens of top rookies that never flourished under Jordan ball

In comparison, Cavs were always a top team that were garbage picking guys like JJ Hickson and Christian Eyenga deep in the draft

Look up the amount of picks and assets Bulls had to play with, it’s ridiculous

[Roundball_Rock]

what a stooge :lol

i hAd nO hAlpZ

The funny thing is Kareem and Lebron also faced much tougher competition and still won more playoff series

shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiid

:oldlol: Notice how MJ stans are avoiding the facts like a vampire avoids sunlight?


The biggest upside Jordan had that nobody ever compares is the lucrative amounts of draft picks the Bulls has between 85-90. Dozens upon dozens of top rookies that never flourished under Jordan ball

Good point. They had two top 10 picks in 87' alone, which netted them Pippen and Grant.

Bulls' Key Draft Picks in the Early MJ Era

1985: 11th
1986: 9th
1987: 8th, 10th (flipped 8th for 5th and Pippen)
1988: 11th
1989: 6th

After that it stopped. How about for the Cavs?

Cavs' Highest Picks in the Early LeBron Era

2004: 10th
2005: no picks
2006: 25th
2007: no picks
2008: 19th
2009: 30th

The difference is stark. Only one top 10 pick while the Bulls had four top 10 picks and six top 11 picks. They did not even have a pick in 2005 and 2007. :oldlol:

[AlternativeAcc.]

The data seems to indicate that Jordan had much more help than LeBron

Hard to argue with the data. Thank you OP.

I don't think many Jordan stans will be stopping by to their their thoughts.

[eliteballer]

What about LeBrons steroid support?

[Doranku]

This list doesn't really do 2016 justice though. I wonder how many teams had a 2nd option outplay the MVP in a playoff series.. at the same position no less.

[Roundball_Rock]

The data seems to indicate that Jordan had much more help than LeBron

Hard to argue with the data. Thank you OP.

I don't think many Jordan stans will be stopping by to their their thoughts.

:cheers:

Agreed, MJ stans will duck and cover. Cowards. :lol


This list doesn't really do 2016 justice though. I wonder how many teams had a 2nd option outplay the MVP in a playoff series.

Here is the issue with that: Green was the Warrior's best player in the series and the gap between him and Irving was not large.

I suspect a lot of stars would have been able to outplay Curry since he sucks in the finals. He was a MVP on paper but he didn't play like that in those finals. So that dims what Irving did.

2016 Finals: Irving 19.1, Green 17.2 , K. Thompson 11.9, T. Thompson 11.0, Iggy 9.9

[dbugz]

MJ > Duncan > Kobe > LeQuit

lequit fans need to stop, I know it's desperate time for you guys.

But lebron is not even top a top 10 goat player.

Just stop it.

[Docs Orders]

:oldlol: Notice how MJ stans are avoiding the facts like a vampire avoids sunlight?



Good point. They had two top 10 picks in 87' alone, which netted them Pippen and Grant.

Bulls' Key Draft Picks in the Early MJ Era

1985: 11th
1986: 9th
1987: 8th, 10th (flipped 8th for 5th and Pippen)
1988: 11th
1989: 6th

After that it stopped. How about for the Cavs?

Cavs' Highest Picks in the Early LeBron Era

2004: 10th
2005: no picks
2006: 25th
2007: no picks
2008: 19th
2009: 30th

The difference is stark. Only one top 10 pick while the Bulls had four top 10 picks and six top 11 picks. They did not even have a pick in 2005 and 2007. :oldlol:

Exactly :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ > Duncan > Kobe > LeQuit

lequit fans need to stop, I know it's desperate time for you guys.

But lebron is not even top a top 10 goat player.

Just stop it.

Relevance to the OP? Jordan had more help. Why the denial of the obvious?


Exactly

:lol

[LeCroix]

This list doesn't really do 2016 justice though. I wonder how many teams had a 2nd option outplay the MVP in a playoff series.. at the same position no less.

you arent giving lebron defense credit

in 2016 playoffs curry killed dame lillard blazers and kd thunder. avged what like 29/7/8 on 45% against them ... ??!!!

he killed all 82 games and all teams in the league with a 30 ppg season...on 50/40/90

dude got clamped by leanchor plain and simple

[Roundball_Rock]

Curry's 2016 Finals game score was closer to Tristan Thompson's than Draymond Green's. People conflate him being MVP and the season he had with what he was in the finals. It doesn't take a lot for stars to exceed a 13.1 game score. For perspective, all these guys in the OP did so:

Raw Data

1991 ECF: Pippen 20.2, V. Johnson 17.0, Grant 13.2,
1991 Finals: Pippen 17.5, Divac 16.1, Grant 13.9
1992 ECF: Pippen 17.4, Nance 16.1, Daughtery 15.7, Grant 14.3
1992 Finals: Pippen 18.1
1993 ECF: Pippen 15.7
1993 Finals: Majerle 17.0, Pippen 15.6
1996 ECF: Pippen 16.6, Penny 15.6
1996 Finals: Kemp 18.9, Pippen 13.
1997 Finals: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9

2007 Finals: Parker 16.2
2011 ECF: Bosh 18.4
2011 Finals: Wade 22.7, Terry 13.4
2012 ECF: Rondo 18.9, Wade 15.4, KG 13.2
2012 Finals: Westbrook 18.9, Wade 16.4
2013 ECF: Hibbert 16.9
2013 Finals: Wade 14.9, Kawhi 14.2
2014 ECF: Wade 15.7
2014 Finals: Kawhi 15.8
2015 ECF: Teague 14.9, Smith 14.2
2015 Finals: Iggy 13.6
2016 ECF: Irving 16.9, DeRozan 14.9
2016 Finals: Irving 19.1, Green 17.2
2017 ECF: Irving 21.3, Love 21.2
2017 Finals: Curry 24.1, Irving 18.2, Love 14.7
2018 Finals: Curry 20.1, Love 15.6, Green 13.7

[BigShotBob]

This list doesn't really do 2016 justice though. I wonder how many teams had a 2nd option outplay the MVP in a playoff series.. at the same position no less.

This.

It's over. Wrap it up. Better luck next time

[Roundball_Rock]

That's it? The entire "case" for LeBron having better help is one series in which a player on the opposing team choked? Man, that is some powerful dispositive evidence!

[86Celtics]

:cheers:

Agreed, MJ stans will duck and cover. Cowards. :lol



Here is the issue with that: Green was the Warrior's best player in the series and the gap between him and Irving was not large.

I suspect a lot of stars would have been able to outplay Curry since he sucks in the finals. He was a MVP on paper but he didn't play like that in those finals. So that dims what Irving did.

2016 Finals: Irving 19.1, Green 17.2 , K. Thompson 11.9, T. Thompson 11.0, Iggy 9.9

Only in that twisted mind of yours. How the hell does Curry's poor performance diminish Irving's great showing? It went to 7 games with Irving averaging 27. The Cavs don't win without Irving playing as well as he did.

[Roundball_Rock]

Let's try to go through it slowly for you, especially since you took the trouble to use an alt.

*The claim is Irving outplayed a MVP player.
*That MVP player choked hard.
*Due to said choking, "outplaying a MVP" wasn't as difficult a bar to clear as it sounds because...he didn't play anywhere like a MVP.

Anyway, the larger point is all we are hearing is Kyrie had one great series during his three years as a sidekick (zero about Wade or what LeBron had before Miami). That sounds like an implicit admission MJ had more help than LeBron...

[86Celtics]

Let's try to go through it slowly for you, especially since you took the trouble to use an alt.

*The claim is Irving outplayed a MVP player.
*That MVP player choked hard.
*Due to said choking, "outplaying a MVP" wasn't as difficult a bar to clear as it sounds because...he didn't play anywhere like a MVP.

Anyway, the larger point is all we are hearing is Kyrie had one great series during his three years as a sidekick (zero about Wade or what LeBron had before Miami). That sounds like an implicit admission MJ had more help than LeBron...



Do say whose alt am I supposed to be? You've had so many posters pull you up on your bullshit that you must have lost count. All of them must be alts. And by the way, it's highly ironic that you should speak of alts when the idiot with whom you circle jerk has dozens of them.

In any case, Irving averaged 27 points in the Finals as the second option. Whether Curry choked or not has no relevance. You've only brought it up to further your agenda.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yes, Kyrie Irving once averaged 27 PPG in a finals. How about the rest of his career? We are comparing "help" across years and series, not cherry picking career highlights.

My understanding is Kyrie has appeared in 3 finals, not 1.

[red1]

another great thread from roundball_rock :applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

another great thread from roundball_rock :applause:

:cheers:

MJ stans still running from the data after saying how little help MJ had in every thread, every day. :lol

[3ball]

.
Title teams with lowest scoring supporting casts for the overall playoffs

Post-1954 (Shot Clock Era)


10. 1994 Rockets - 68.3 PPG
9. 2006 Heat - 67.8 PPG
8. 1993 Bulls - 67.3 PPG
7. 2012 Heat - 67.0 PPG
6. 1996 Bulls - 66.7 PPG
5. 1992 Bulls - 65.9 PPG
4. 2004 Pistons - 65.6 PPG
3. 1999 Spurs - 65.2 PPG
2. 1997 Bulls - 61.5 PPG
1. 1998 Bulls - 60.8 PPG





:cheers:

MJ stans still running from the data after saying how little help MJ had in every thread, every day. :lol

He had the lowest-scoring casts ever, as the data above shows

How does that not prove he had the least help?

Who cares if Pippen had the highest gamescore 1 more time then lebron's sidekick - jordan's casts overall were much less

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

3ball tearing DaHeezy apart :lol

You hate to see it.

[Roundball_Rock]

1. 1998 Bulls - 60.8 PPG

1998 Jazz 55.2 PPG. As usual, misleading. :lol


Who cares if Pippen had the highest gamescore 1 more time then lebron's sidekick

You need to take math 101.

Pippen had the highest game score in 9 of 12 series, 10 of 12 when accounting for Game 5 97' ECF injury.
Wade had the highest game score in 3 of 8 series.
For Cleveland, LeBron's sidekick was the highest in 3 of 8 series.

Pippen was at 75-83%; Wade at 38% as was Cleveland. Simple mathematics.


jordan's casts overall were much less

That is a laughable conclusion from the data in the OP.

Best cast member: Bulls 9x, opponents 3x (one due to injury)
Majority of top five cast members: Bulls 7, opposition 5
Top two cast members: Bulls 2, opposition 0
Four of top five cast members: Bulls 1, opposition 0

The Bulls have clear advantages any way you slice it.

Best cast member: 11 for LeBron’s opponents, 7 for LeBron’s teams
Majority of top five cast members: 13 for LeBron’s opponents, 5 for LeBron’s teams
Top two cast members: 6 for LeBron’s opponents, 2 for LeBron’s teams
Four of top five cast members: 4 for LeBron’s opponents, 0.5 for LeBron’s teams (one tie for 5th)
All five top cast members: 1 for LeBron’s opponents, 0 for LeBron’s teams

LeBron's teams have large disadvantages by any way of measuring it.