Why Pippen being the greatest 2nd option ever doesn't diminish MJ

[iamgine]

Wilt, playing against postmen and repair mechanics, by FAR the most dominant player in his era, couldn't win.
Kareem, playing against part time weed salesmen and heroin addicts, couldn't win.
Shaq got swept time and time again when he had Penny and Hakeem had Kenny.
Lebron was so dominant it's not even funny, yet we all know the 3-9 story.

Fact is, you can't win consistently without great help. Sure you might win one like Hakeem in '94 or Dirk in '11 but 6 titles require all time great teammates.

[LeCroix]

Fax, good post

[3ball]

Wilt, playing against postmen and repair mechanics, by FAR the most dominant player in his era, couldn't win.
Kareem, playing against part time weed salesmen and heroin addicts, couldn't win.
Shaq got swept time and time again when he had Penny and Hakeem had Kenny.
Lebron was so dominant it's not even funny, yet we all know the 3-9 story.

Fact is, you can't win consistently without great help. Sure you might win one like Hakeem in '94 or Dirk in '11 but 6 titles require all time great teammates.

When did lebron beat a good team (top 5 SRS) without 20 ppg from a sidekick?

When did he beat good teams with 15-16 from the sidekick like mj did 5 times, and with poor efficiency each time? (34-42%)

[3ball]

Only MJ had to develop a star teammate, while everyone else was gifted ready-made stars like Magic got Kareem... Duncan got Robinson... Kobe got Shaq and Gasol.. Curry got KD... Bird got Parish and DJ... etc, etc

And Bron got wade, kyrie, bosh, love, jamison... And he also got a 22/5/5 first-team defender in 06' to join the East all-star center... MJ didn't have anyone capable of 22/5/5 and 1st team defense until 92'

So only mj had to endure Pippen's legendary chojes, growing pains and extreme selfishness... AND horrible production... Best sidekick ever is like saying the cops that beat Rodney King were innocent.. it's just a massive lie

[LeCroix]

Only MJ had to develop a star teammate, while everyone else was gifted ready-made stars like Magic got Kareem... Duncan got Robinson... Kobe got Shaq and Gasol.. Curry got KD... Bird got Parish and DJ... etc, etc

And Bron got wade, kyrie, bosh, love, jamison... And he also got a 22/5/5 first-team defender in 06' to join the East all-star center... MJ didn't have anyone capable of 22/5/5 and 1stvteam defense until 92'

Aging Wade, mediocre Bosh, and yes he DID develop Kyrie baby boi

[3ball]

Aging Wade, mediocre Bosh, and yes he DID develop Kyrie baby boi

Kyrie was all-star MVP in 14' before lebron got there

And 13-14" Wade had prime Pippen stats so stop complaining - you're complaining because he was reduced to prime Pippen, so now you know how I feel.. prime Pippen and his garbage 18/6/5 stats are trash, like 13-14 wade

[LeCroix]

Kyrie was all-star MVP in 14' before lebron got there

And 13-14" Wade had prime Pippen stats so stop complaining - you're complaining because he was reduced to prime Pippen, so now you know how I feel.. prime Pippen and his garbage 18/6/5 stats are trash, like 13-14 wade

Im not complaining wtf Youre the idiot that is always complaining :lol

[Horatio33]

Wilt, playing against postmen and repair mechanics, by FAR the most dominant player in his era, couldn't win.
Kareem, playing against part time weed salesmen and heroin addicts, couldn't win.
Shaq got swept time and time again when he had Penny and Hakeem had Kenny.
Lebron was so dominant it's not even funny, yet we all know the 3-9 story.

Fact is, you can't win consistently without great help. Sure you might win one like Hakeem in '94 or Dirk in '11 but 6 titles require all time great teammates.

A surprisingly mature post from you. Keep it up.

[ImKobe]

Is he really the greatest 2nd option ever though? 1995 Clyde had a better run as a 2nd option than Pippen in any of his 6 titles. Wade and Curry are better players and they were 2nd options on multiple championship squads. You could argue Klay over him as well.

[Roundball_Rock]

Is he really the greatest 2nd option ever though? 1995 Clyde had a better run as a 2nd option than Pippen in any of his 6 titles. Wade and Curry are better players and they were 2nd options on multiple championship squads. You could argue Klay over him as well.

Drexler was 21/7/5 in the 95' run. That is hardly "a better run than Pippen in any of his 6 titles." Pippen put up slightly better numbers with elite defense. Moreover, why do you focus on one year for Drexler? What did he do during the rest of his time as a second option? You must know the answer which is why you focused on one year.

Pippen clearly was better than Wade as a second option. There is no data to support Wade being better. Wade was the 9th best player in the 14' finals by game score and 6th best in the 11' ECF. Pippen never had a series like that during those title runs. Pippen consistently outplayed the opposing #2; Wade did not.

Curry had two years as a second option. It is hard to make much over such a brief run.

[StrongLurk]

Pippen is a top 50ish player of all time...but greatest second option??? Get that crap out.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen is a top 50ish player of all time...but greatest second option??? Get that crap out.

The argument is based on length of time in that role. Kobe arguably was better (even though he couldn't lead the Lakers to a winning record minus Shaq) but his time in that role was brief. Same story with Curry (2 years) and young Magic (2-3 years before he and Kareem became 1a/1b).

[97 bulls]

Number 2 guy as in 2nd best player? Yes I'd say he is. But as a number 2 option meaning offensively? I think there much better guys to run your offense through.

[ImKobe]

Drexler was 21/7/5 in the 95' run. That is hardly "a better run than Pippen in any of his 6 titles." Pippen put up slightly better numbers with elite defense. Moreover, why do you focus on one year for Drexler? What did he do during the rest of his time as a second option? You must know the answer which is why you focused on one year.

Pippen clearly was better than Wade as a second option. There is no data to support Wade being better. Wade was the 9th best player in the 14' finals by game score and 6th best in the 11' ECF. Pippen never had a series like that during those title runs. Pippen consistently outplayed the opposing #2; Wade did not.

Curry had two years as a second option. It is hard to make much over such a brief run.

Drexler had huge elimination games against Utah (41/9/6, 31/10/3) and averaged 22/10/7 to sweep a really good Magic team in the Finals. Pippen's best title run was 22/9/6 on 56.4%TS, Drexler averaged 21/7/5 on 58.7%TS in 1995. Drexler was 32 years old, Pippen at the same age averaged 17/7/5 on 50%TS in '98.

Wade, Curry and Drexler are obviously better players in their primes and they fit really well as 2nd options. It's no surprise they'd be better 2nd options. 2011 & 2012 Wade is better than any version of Pippen. 2011 Wade averaged 25/7/4 on 57%TS (led the Heat in scoring, PER, WS, BPM, VORP) for their Finals run and would have won Finals MVP over prime Lebron, had he not choked in those 4th quarters. Curry showed enough. He was able to defer to another superstar while still being his efficient self, his impact offensively outweighs Pippen's defense.

[Roundball_Rock]

You are cherry picking their best years as second options--an implicit admission that they didn't stack up over their entire runs.

Drexler was 21/7/4 in 95'. So slightly less statistical production than Pippen--and even bigger difference on the court when you factor in Pippen's elite defense.

Drexler in 96'-98': 19/7/6, 18/6/6, 18/5/6
Wade from 11'-14':26/5/6, 22/5/5, 21/5/5, 19/5/5
Pippen from 91'-98': 20/7/6

All-NBA teams: Pippen 7 from 1991-1998 (three firsts, two seconds, two thirds), Wade 3 from 2011-2014 (2nd, 3rd, 3rd), Drexler 1 (95' third team and that was based on what he did in Portland as a #1).

MVP finishes as sidekicks: Wade 7th, 10th, 10th; Drexler 14th (due to Portland mainly in 95'); Pippen 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th

Wade and Drexler were not dominant defenders like Pippen was.

It is pretty clear Pippen accomplished more as a sidekick than those two by any measure.

As far as them as players, Pippen and Wade are ranked near each other all-time in the top 20-30 range while Drexler is around 35-40.

If Wade was so great as a sidekick why was he outplayed by the opposing #2 so often? Why was he the 9th best player in a NBA finals and the 6th best player in a ECF (11', peak Wade)? Wade was a great player but 2011 Wade was the only sidekick Wade that resembled prime Wade. The Wade of 2013 and 2014 was a far cry from that. People conflate the various Wades as one.

Curry was a sidekick for only 2 years so not much to look at.


Drexler was 32 years old, Pippen at the same age averaged 17/7/5 on 50%TS in '98.

That's because he was too busy dominating series on defense. :lol

[ImKobe]

You are cherry picking their best years as second options--an implicit admission that they didn't stack up over their entire runs.

Drexler was 21/7/4 in 95'. So slightly less statistical production than Pippen--and even bigger difference on the court when you factor in Pippen's elite defense.

Drexler in 96'-98': 19/7/6, 18/6/6, 18/5/6
Wade from 11'-14':26/5/6, 22/5/5, 21/5/5, 19/5/5
Pippen from 91'-98': 20/7/6

All-NBA teams: Pippen 7 from 1991-1998 (three firsts, two seconds, two thirds), Wade 3 from 2011-2014 (2nd, 3rd, 3rd), Drexler 1 (95' third team and that was based on what he did in Portland as a #1).

MVP finishes as sidekicks: Wade 7th, 10th, 10th; Drexler 14th (due to Portland mainly in 95'); Pippen 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th

Wade and Drexler were not dominant defenders like Pippen was.

It is pretty clear Pippen accomplished more as a sidekick than those two by any measure.

As far as them as players, Pippen and Wade are ranked near each other all-time in the top 20-30 range while Drexler is around 35-40.



That's because he was too busy dominating series on defense. :lol

I picked the years they won a championship/made the Finals. Should I go with their Finals runs as #1 options? Wade is a much better player than Pippen, idk why you're even trying to argue this. Pippen never played on 2011 Wade's level, even as a #1 option in 1994.

[warriorfan]

You are cherry picking their best years as second options--an implicit admission that they didn't stack up over their entire runs.

Drexler was 21/7/4 in 95'. So slightly less statistical production than Pippen--and even bigger difference on the court when you factor in Pippen's elite defense.

Drexler in 96'-98': 19/7/6, 18/6/6, 18/5/6
Wade from 11'-14':26/5/6, 22/5/5, 21/5/5, 19/5/5
Pippen from 91'-98': 20/7/6

All-NBA teams: Pippen 7 from 1991-1998 (three firsts, two seconds, two thirds), Wade 3 from 2011-2014 (2nd, 3rd, 3rd), Drexler 1 (95' third team and that was based on what he did in Portland as a #1).

MVP finishes as sidekicks: Wade 7th, 10th, 10th; Drexler 14th (due to Portland mainly in 95'); Pippen 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th

Wade and Drexler were not dominant defenders like Pippen was.

It is pretty clear Pippen accomplished more as a sidekick than those two by any measure.

As far as them as players, Pippen and Wade are ranked near each other all-time in the top 20-30 range while Drexler is around 35-40.

If Wade was so great as a sidekick why was he outplayed by the opposing #2 so often? Why was he the 9th best player in a NBA finals and the 6th best player in a ECF (11', peak Wade)?



That's because he was too busy dominating series on defense. :lol

You just summed up why Leonard has less counting stats but wins more than LeBron. :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

I picked the years they won a championship/made the Finals. Should I go with their Finals runs as #1 options?

Wade wasn't in the finals in 2012, 2013, and 2014? :biggums:

So Drexler is this great sidekick but made only one finals joining the defending champion team with prime Hakeem? A team that won with Otis Thorpe as their #2 the prior year (who Drexler was traded for, which says something about his trade value).

[Roundball_Rock]

If Pippen had this many poor series we would never hear the end of it. :lol

Top 5 "Cast" Members in the Finals/ECF

2011 ECF: Bosh 18.4, Boozer 12.1, Deng 11.4, Wade 11.1, Noah 7.8 Outplayed by Bosh, Boozer, and Deng among "cast members."

2011 Finals: Wade 22.7, Terry 13.4, Chandler 11.0, Bosh 10.9, Marion 10.0

2012 ECF: Rondo 18.9, Wade 15.4, KG 13.2, Bosh 10.4, Chalmers 9.2 Outplayed by Rondo.

2012 Finals: Westbrook 18.9, Wade 16.4, Bosh 11.9, Battier 9.3, Harden/Chalmers 8.4 Outplayed again by the opposing #2.

2013 ECF: Hibbert 16.9, Wade 11.7, West 11.2, Hill 9.6, Anderson 8.1 Outplayed yet again, this time by Roy Hibbert.

2013 Finals: Wade 14.9, Kawhi 14.2, Bosh 12.1, Parker 11.2, Green 10.2 Shows up for the first time in a while.

2014 ECF: Wade 15.7, Bosh 12.0, West 11.7, Lance 11.3, Hibbert 8.9

2014 Finals: Kawhi 15.8, Duncan 12.9, Manu 10.9, Diaw 8.5, Mills 8.2 Outplayed by 8 players in the series, including Boris Diaw and Patty Mills.

[warriorfan]

If Pippen had this many poor series we would never hear the end of it. :lol

Top 5 "Cast" Members in the Finals/ECF

2011 ECF: Bosh 18.4, Boozer 12.1, Deng 11.4, Wade 11.1, Noah 7.8 Outplayed by Bosh, Boozer, and Deng among "cast members."

2011 Finals: Wade 22.7, Terry 13.4, Chandler 11.0, Bosh 10.9, Marion 10.0

2012 ECF: Rondo 18.9, Wade 15.4, KG 13.2, Bosh 10.4, Chalmers 9.2 Outplayed by Rondo.

2012 Finals: Westbrook 18.9, Wade 16.4, Bosh 11.9, Battier 9.3, Harden/Chalmers 8.4 Outplayed again by the opposing #2.

2013 ECF: Hibbert 16.9, Wade 11.7, West 11.2, Hill 9.6, Anderson 8.1 Outplayed yet again, this time by Roy Hibbert.

2013 Finals: Wade 14.9, Kawhi 14.2, Bosh 12.1, Parker 11.2, Green 10.2 Shows up for the first time in a while.

2014 ECF: Wade 15.7, Bosh 12.0, West 11.7, Lance 11.3, Hibbert 8.9

2014 Finals: Kawhi 15.8, Duncan 12.9, Manu 10.9, Diaw 8.5, Mills 8.2 Outplayed by 8 players in the series, including Boris Diaw and Patty Mills.

https://i.postimg.cc/k4XtJvrQ/3-E06-CEB8-3233-4192-96-F3-56-CD26-B17845.jpg

Bron Ball.

[ImKobe]

Wade wasn't in the finals in 2012, 2013, and 2014? :biggums:

So Drexler is this great sidekick but made only one finals joining the defending champion team with prime Hakeem?

Yes, because the Rockets were injured in other seasons, and Drexler by then was older than Pippen in any of his Finals runs? Drexler wasn't a 2nd option in his prime, he led multiple teams to the Finals as a #1 option. I'm obviously picking their best runs as 2nd options to show you how they stack up against Pippen's best. I could have used Pippen's worst series as well, and there are plenty of those. Wade did average just 15.7 ppg in the 2014 Finals, so did Pippen in 1996 and 1998. Wade was also an elite-level defensive player, maybe not so much in 2014, but clearly from 2011-13.

The case for Pippen is that he was a 2nd option on 6 title teams, and I'll give you that, though he's obviously not the best player to ever be a 2nd option on a title team.

[Roundball_Rock]

Drexler wasn't a 2nd option in his prime, he led multiple teams to the Finals as a #1 option

Yeah, over a decade. Pippen had one full year in his prime as the #1. It is a poor, specious argument. It also is ironic since a lot of the people who credit Drexler and others like Ewing for losing in the finals once or twice rail against LeBron for making 9 finals.


I could have used Pippen's worst series as well, and there are plenty of those

Let's check the facts (game scores for finals and ECFs):

1991 ECF: Pippen 20.2, V. Johnson 17.0, Grant 13.2, Aguirre 9.4, BJ 8.5
1991 Finals: Pippen 17.5, Divac 16.1, Grant 13.9, Paxson 12.1, Perkins 11.3
1992 ECF: Pippen 17.4, Nance 16.1, Daughtery 15.7, Grant 14.3, Ehlo 11.0
1992 Finals: Pippen 18.1, Porter 12.5, Grant 11.3, Kersey 10.7, Paxson 7.6
1993 ECF: Pippen 15.7, Mason 10.1, Smith 9.6, Grant 8.5, Starks 8.4
1993 Finals: Majerle 17.0, Pippen 15.6, Grant 12.8, Dumas 12.7, BJ 11.2
1996 ECF: Pippen 16.6, Penny 15.6, Rodman 13.0, Kerr 9.0, Harper 8.6
1996 Finals: Kemp 18.9, Pippen 13.4, Rodman 10.2, Schrempf 9.9, Kukoc 9.6
1997 ECF: Hardaway 11.6, Pippen 10.8*, Harper 9.0, Rodman 7.1, Longley/Leonard 5.6
1997 Finals: Pippen 15.1, Stockton 14.9, Russell 7.2, Hornacek 7.1, Kukoc 6.3
1998 ECF: Pippen 13.0, Kukoc 12.6, Smits 10.9, Davis 9.8, Harper 8.5
1998 Finals: Pippen 13.0, Kukoc 11.5, Stockton 10.0, Hornacek/Russell 6.1

*Pippen was at 12.7 through four games but played only 7 minutes in the fifth and final game of the 97’ ECF, which dragged his average down.

So Pippen consistently outplayed all cast members and if he did not he was #2. The same cannot be said about Wade. You can't seriously compare this list to the Wade performances.


Wade did average just 15.7 ppg in the 2014 Finals, so did Pippen in 1996 and 1998

Was Wade the front-runner for FMVP after four games like Pippen was in 98'? ? There is more to basketball than PPG.

1996 Finals: Kemp 18.9, Pippen 13.4, Rodman 10.2, Schrempf 9.9, Kukoc 9.6
1998 Finals: Pippen 13.0, Kukoc 11.5, Stockton 10.0, Hornacek/Russell 6.1

This is it? These are the worst cases you can find and that is with Pippen's numbers tailing off due to a Game 5 back injury in 98'? Wade was the 9th best player in a finals. Let that sink in.

Wade wasn't dominating series defensively like Pippen was. 15.7 PPG, though, right?

Even your one Wade year that you focus on had him outplayed by LeBron, Rose, Bosh, Boozer, and Deng in the ECF.

[ImKobe]

Was Wade the front-runner for FMVP after four games like Pippen was in 98'? ? There is more to basketball than PPG.

1996 Finals: Kemp 18.9, Pippen 13.4, Rodman 10.2, Schrempf 9.9, Kukoc 9.6
1998 Finals: Pippen 13.0, Kukoc 11.5, Stockton 10.0, Hornacek/Russell 6.1

This is it? These are the worst cases you can find and that is with Pippen's numbers tailing off due to a Game 5 back injury in 98'?

Wade wasn't dominating series defensively like Pippen was. 15.7 PPG, though, right?


Wade was also injured in 2014, what's the point of using that excuse? And how was he a FMVP front-runner at 20/7/4 a game? MJ was averaging 32/5/3 a game & scored more than Scottie in every single one of them, Pippen was maybe better in Game 4, but you're giving him FMVP based off one game? He had 10 points in one of those wins.

[Roundball_Rock]

And how was he a FMVP front-runner at 20/7/4 a game? MJ was averaging 32/5/3 a game & scored more than Scottie in every single one of them, Pippen was maybe better in Game 4, but you're giving him FMVP based off one game? He had 10 points in one of those wins.

The bolded tells me all I need to know. Yeah, 10/4/4 that game. He must have sucked, right? He dominated that game to anybody who watched (which evidently few MJ stans have). That is why he was FMVP front-runner.

Don't forget his 4 point game (1 for 9) in Game 1 of the ECF the same year. Let me guess: you think he sucked that game too?

[Round Mound]

PIPPEN´s broken down stats. You say he was NOT A TOP 10 PLAYER IN THE 90's? Check This Out

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th) *Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)

:confusedshrug:

[warriorfan]

PIPPEN´s broken down stats. You say he was NOT A TOP 10 PLAYER IN THE 90's? Check This Out

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th) *Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)

:confusedshrug:

No MJ for Pip? 4th in PER and early exit

No LBJ for Wade? Finals win with a legendary performance. #2 in PER

[Roundball_Rock]

PIPPEN´s broken down stats. You say he was NOT A TOP 10 PLAYER IN THE 90's? Check This Out

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4 (19th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)

Offensive Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 3.2 (16th)
1991-92 NBA 4.1 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 4.5 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 4.4 (8th)
1995-96 NBA 4.6 (9th)
1996-97 NBA 4.3 (14th)
1997-98 NBA 3.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)

Defensive Box Plus/Minus

1987-88 NBA 1.3 (19th)
1990-91 NBA 2.5 (7th)
1991-92 NBA 2.0 (12th)
1993-94 NBA 3.2 (5th) *Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 3.0 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 1.7 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 1.6 (19th)
2001-02 NBA 1.6 (14th)
2002-03 NBA 1.6 (19th

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)*Without Jordan
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)

:confusedshrug:

:applause:

Funny how those numbers went up without MJ. :oldlol:

[3ball]

.
Kyrie's advantage in ORtg has greater impact than Pippen's edge in DRtg because Kyrie has higher NET rating:



Net Rating

Pippen 97' Playoffs... 8.6 (https://stats.nba.com/player/937/advanced/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)
Pippen 97' Finals....... 1.3 (https://stats.nba.com/player/937/advanced/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

Pippen 98' Playoffs... 8.1 (https://stats.nba.com/player/937/advanced/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)
Pippen 98' Finals....... 7.0 (https://stats.nba.com/player/937/advanced/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

Kyrie 16' Playoffs...... 10.0 (https://stats.nba.com/player/202681/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs)
Kyrie 16' Finals............ 6.2 (https://stats.nba.com/player/202681/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

Kyrie 17' Playoffs........ 9.4 (https://stats.nba.com/player/202681/advanced/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Playoffs)



So we can safely say that kyrie was a much better Playoff and Finals performer than Pippen:



Playoffs

Kyrie 16-17'...... 25.5 ppg.. 46.0 fg.. 23.0 PER.. 0.181 ws/48
Pippen 96-98'... 17.6 ppg.. 40.8 fg.. 19.0 PER.. 0.169 ws/48
Pippen 91-93'... 20.3 ppg.. 47.8 fg.. 19.6 PER.. 0.148 ws/48


Finals

Kyrie 16-17'......... 28.0 on 46.0%
Pippen 6 Finals... 19.0 on 42.5%


Kyrie is clearly a better Playoff and Finals performer than Pippen

Wade"'s stats are also superior

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan enjoyed more help than LeBron by a wide margin. Here is a review of game scores of "cast" members in their ECF's and Finals:

Best cast member: Bulls 9x, opponents 3x (one due to injury)
Majority of top five cast members: Bulls 7, opposition 5
Top two cast members: Bulls 2, opposition 0
Four of top five cast members: Bulls 1, opposition 0

The Bulls have clear advantages any way you slice it.

Best cast member: 11 for LeBron’s opponents, 7 for LeBron’s teams
Majority of top five cast members: 13 for LeBron’s opponents, 5 for LeBron’s teams
Top two cast members: 6 for LeBron’s opponents, 2 for LeBron’s teams
Four of top five cast members: 4 for LeBron’s opponents, 0.5 for LeBron’s teams (one tie for 5th)
All five top cast members: 1 for LeBron’s opponents, 0 for LeBron’s teams

LeBron's teams have large disadvantages by any way of measuring it.

The best sidekick MJ faced was Stockton, and he was outplayed by Chicago's fourth best player in the 98' finals in addition to by Pippen.

[LeCroix]

so lebron got the 11-12 version of wade (6+5 years after his prime in 06) and mike got the full prime version of pippen (91-98)

lebron got prime wade for 1 year 2011
mj got prime pippen for 8 years 91-98

who got the better deal :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

so lebron got the 11-12 version of wade (6+5 years after his prime in 06) and mike got the full prime version of pippen (91-98)

lebron got prime wade for 1 year 2011
mj got prime pippen for 8 years 91-98

who got the better deal :lol

Exactly. :lol That is why they focus on 11' Wade because they know Wade for the entire 2011-2014 run was not as good as Pippen was during the 1991-1998 run. Even in 11', while Wade was great in the RS and finals, he had a terrible ECF. Pippen has no comparable series during his run.

[Round Mound]

:applause:

Funny how those numbers went up without MJ. :oldlol:

Indeed :oldlol:. Only MJ dickriders and fanboys wan't to make it out as Pippen was just a role player :facepalm

[Roundball_Rock]

Indeed :oldlol:. Only MJ dickriders and fanboys wan't to make it out as Pippen was just a role player :facepalm

:lol true.