Dwyane Wade or Scottie Pippen? Who’s the better player?

[warriorfan]

Who is the better player? This one was always a no brainer with Wade but Scottie seems to be getting a lot of love around here for some reason. Scottie was a great defender of course but so was Wade. Wade is one of the greatest shot blocking guards of all time. Great man and help defender. He’s made multiple all defensive teams and has finished 3rd in DPOY voting before. But of course what really separates the two is creating their own offense and scoring efficiently on high volume. Wade has a dominant Jordan like Championship run in 2006. Scottie could never come close to doing anything like that. Wade is a stone cold killer. He’s a true alpha. Scottie as we know is definitely a beta guy. Very shy and unsure of himself, can be very pouty and selfish. Jordan was able to take him under his wing and toughen him up a little bit but it was a process that took awhile. Pippen also collapsed as trying to be the Alpha when he had the opportunity in Chicago. He had problems everywhere he went. He was only okay when Jordan was there to keep him in line.

That being said I’m voting for D Wade.

[RRR3]

No one actually thinks Pippen is better. Stop arguing against yourself.

[warriorfan]

No one actually thinks Pippen is better. Stop arguing against yourself.

https://i.postimg.cc/J7NcQ3jF/2-BB5-C4-AD-898-C-491-A-966-E-3586-CEE8-C7-D1.jpg

[Mamba4Life]

Both are better than Curry all time

Pippen in the Top 20-25 and Wade in the Top 30-40 all time

[RRR3]

Both are better than Curry all time

Pippen in the Top 20-25 and Wade in the Top 30-40 all time
Name 30 players over Wade :oldlol:


No way. And just :roll: at 40 players over Wade

[RRR3]

https://i.postimg.cc/J7NcQ3jF/2-BB5-C4-AD-898-C-491-A-966-E-3586-CEE8-C7-D1.jpg
I'm almost positive he's said Wade was better. He's trolling you.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:oldlol: @ Pippen being over Wade.

Comparable longevity but inferior prime and peak. Impact stats also belong to Wade, as do the raw numbers.

[Roundball_Rock]

No one actually thinks Pippen is better. Stop arguing against yourself.

They rank near each other on every all-time list, with the order varying (e.g., ESPN had Pippen 21st and Wade 26th; Slam had Pippen #22 and Wade #23). The difference is peak versus career. Wade had the higher peak but his lack of durability hurts his career. Where they rank relative to each other depends on how you weight the two.

They both peaked at 3rd in MVP voting, both made similar amount of all-NBA first teams (Pippen 3, Wade 2), similar amount of total all-NBA (Wade 8, Pippen 7), etc.

Wade is fondly remembered and not dissed 24/7 all over the internet by LeBron stans (who are secure enough to acknowledge his greatness) like Pippen is by insecure, rattled MJ stans so people think Wade's resume is much better than it actually was. He and Pippen were very similar accomplishments wise.

I predict this thread will be full of MJ stans ripping Pippen but you won't see LeBron stans here doing the same with Wade. That speaks volumes about the respective fan bases.

[Mamba4Life]

Name 30 players over Wade :oldlol:


No way. And just :roll: at 40 players over Wade

Basically any great player who’s prime was more than 5 seasons, is automatically better than Wade

You can’t seriously be considered an ATG when you were only good for 5 seasons

[Mamba4Life]

Boiled Down

Pippen: 6/6


Wade: 3/5



Gimme Pippen over Wade any day of the week

[Dr Hawk]

Wade is clearly better.

[Indian guy]

06-11 Wade is definitely better than any version of Pippen.

[Roundball_Rock]

Basically any great player who’s prime was more than 5 seasons, is automatically better than Wade

You can’t seriously be considered an ATG when you were only good for 5 seasons

Wade made all-NBA 8 times so he clearly was great for longer than 5 seasons. Let's not underrated Wade. The guy was a beast. If he had better health he would be top 20 all-time.


06-11 Wade is definitely better than any version of Pippen.

2008 Wade on a 15-67 team too? Anyway, it is a career comparison. I don't think anyone thinks Pippen had the better peak.

[97 bulls]

Lol. A vote for Wade is a vote for Jordan. That's really what this is. Everywhere else, Pippen is ranked higher.

[RRR3]

Basically any great player who’s prime was more than 5 seasons, is automatically better than Wade

You can’t seriously be considered an ATG when you were only good for 5 seasons
Wade was for sure a superstar from 05-12 and he still was a superstar in the 2013 regular season. That's a lot more than 5 seasons.

[CTbasketball92]

I would honestly take 06-12 Wade over any version of Pippen, and i mean it's a decisive edge for Wade. Wade wasn't as good a defender, but he's the best shot-blocking guard ever and he's an immeasurably better scorer and probably not far off as a playmaker.

[RRR3]

Wade made all-NBA 8 times so he clearly was great for longer than 5 seasons. Let's not underrated Wade. The guy was a beast. If he had better health he would be top 20 all-time.



2008 Wade on a 15-67 team too? Anyway, it is a career comparison. I don't think anyone thinks Pippen had the better peak.
Is it a career comparison though? OP asked who was BETTER, not GREATER.

[Roundball_Rock]

Lol. A vote for Wade is a vote for Jordan. That's really what this is. Everywhere else, Pippen is ranked higher.

The people voting for Wade here are the same people who voted for Irving over Pippen when that poll was posted. The insecurity of MJ stans is stunning and amusing. :lol

I wouldn't say Pippen is clearly ranked higher. Every list I see has them within a couple of spots of each other. Pippen seems to be ahead of Wade more often than vice versa but it is never by much. The biggest gap I have seen is on ESPN where Pippen was 5 spots ahead but there isn't a seismic difference between #21 and #26 (as there is between #3 and #8, for instance).


Is it a career comparison though? OP asked who was BETTER, not GREATER.

Same difference. If you are comparing better you look at careers IMO. If the question was peaks that is a different question.

[RRR3]

Manny cheating by voting on his main and his alt :facepalm

[LostCause]

06-11 Wade is definitely better than any version of Pippen.

This


Manny cheating by voting on his main and his alt :facepalm

:roll:

Talk about people with agendas

[Roundball_Rock]

Regardless of what ISH thinks (and we have to separate insecure MJ stans and their agenda from the rest of ISH--they will also say Kyrie>Pippen), their placement on all-time lists is pretty consistent. Wade is recently retired so he may move up or down but the verdict is in on Pippen: top 20-30 all-time. Right now, Wade also falls in that range.

For Wade proponents, how high do you think he could rise when the historical dust settles? I can't see him cracking the top 15-20 due to longevity and durability issues. If he remains 20-30, he will reside where Pippen, Stockton, Robinson, and co. are.

[SouBeachTalents]

Who's ranked higher? I think it's Wade but that's at least a reasonable discussion

Who was a better basketball player? Definitely Wade, saying you think Pippen was better than Wade is no different than saying you think he's better than Kobe/Durant/Curry/Kawhi

[97 bulls]

The people voting for Wade here are the same people who voted for Irving over Pippen when that poll was posted. The insecurity of MJ stans is stunning and amusing. :lol

I wouldn't say Pippen is clearly ranked higher. Every list I see has them within a couple of spots of each other. Pippen seems to be ahead of Wade more often than vice versa but it is never by much. The biggest gap I have seen is on ESPN where Pippen was 5 spots ahead but there isn't a seismic difference between #21 and #26 (as there is between #3 and #8, for instance).



Same difference. If you are comparing better you look at careers IMO. If the question was peaks that is a different question.

I've always maintained that Wade and Pippen are very close. But I remember having to constantly have that discussion when the Heat were running the league. I'd give the edge to Pip. But even if you give it to Wade, it's not "miles" or "lightyears" or "waaaaay better".

Wade gets credit for those three games in the 06 Finals. They forget how much the Heat under achieved with Wade at the helm. Be it 11 or 07 when the Bulls and Kirk Hinrich punked him.

[Mamba4Life]

Who's ranked higher? I think it's Wade but that's at least a reasonable discussion

Who was a better basketball player? Definitely Wade, saying you think Pippen was better than Wade is no different than saying you think he's better than Kobe/Durant/Curry/Kawhi

If Wade is so good why did he only end up 3/5 compared to Pippens 6/6??

[Mamba4Life]

I would honestly take 06-12 Wade over any version of Pippen, and i mean it's a decisive edge for Wade. Wade wasn't as good a defender, but he's the best shot-blocking guard ever and he's an immeasurably better scorer and probably not far off as a playmaker.

2007 Wade- Swept in the first round as defending champs

2008 Wade- Injured

2009 Wade- Lost in 1st round as the favorite

2010 Wade- Quit in the first round

2011 Wade- Choked in the Finals


Which of those years was Wade good?

[Indian guy]

Anyway, it is a career comparison. I don't think anyone thinks Pippen had the better peak.

The title itself asks for who's the better player :confusedshrug:. Wade's definitely better.

[KD7]

Give me the one who can go far into the playoffs without another HOF by his side

[RRR3]

2007 Wade- Swept in the first round as defending champs

2008 Wade- Injured

2009 Wade- Lost in 1st round as the favorite

2010 Wade- Quit in the first round

2011 Wade- Choked in the Finals


Which of those years was Wade good?
This literally never happened. Wade was the best player in the 2011 finals.

[Manny98]

2007 Wade- Swept in the first round as defending champs

2008 Wade- Injured

2009 Wade- Lost in 1st round as the favorite

2010 Wade- Quit in the first round

2011 Wade- Choked in the Finals


Which of those years was Wade good?
:roll:

Wade was a f*cking loser without Shaq or Lebron

Give me Pippen in a heartbeat

[Roundball_Rock]

I've always maintained that Wade and Pippen are very close. But I remember having to constantly have that discussion when the Heat were running the league. I'd give the edge to Pip. But even if you give it to Wade, it's not "miles" or "lightyears" or "waaaaay better".

Wade gets credit for those three games in the 06 Finals. They forget how much the Heat under achieved with Wade at the helm. Be it 11 or 07 when the Bulls and Kirk Hinrich punked him.

Yeah all good points. People remember Wade's 06' and 11' finals but don't remember his other finals. He was the 9th best player by stats in the 14' finals.

Another thing that is ignored is whenever Shaq or LeBron were out Miami sucked. However, when Wade was out and Shaq or LeBron played those two kept Miami's win pace at their normal level.

Pippen had the Bulls at 55 wins without Jordan and when Pippen exited the lineup the Bulls had a drop-off from 69 wins the previous year to a 56 win pace with just Jordan in 98'. Miami did not show that degree of decline when Wade was out.

I suspect it is because a lot of Pippen's value doesn't show on the stat sheet. Chicago's offense went down the toilet with Pippen--they went from 1st in PPG in 97' to 18th in PPG without Pippen in 98'. What is the stat for that? There is nothing to put on Pippen's basketballreference page to capture that. Pippen made the offense hum. This isn't even getting to defense...

As a comparison, Wade scoring 30 PPG easily shows on the stat sheet but what is the value of a team going from 1st to 18th in scoring (-10 PPG)?


The title itself asks for who's the better player . Wade's definitely better.

For what? One season or careers? I read it as careers. If we are talking one season or 60 games instead of 82, sure give me Wade then.

[SouBeachTalents]

This literally never happened. Wade was the best player in the 2011 finals.
Why are you even responding to him :oldlol:

[Mamba4Life]

This literally never happened. Wade was the best player in the 2011 finals.


He left Game 5 with an “injury” and only scored 16ppg in the elimination Game 6

[RRR3]

Why are you even responding to him :oldlol:
Why do I even respond to 3ball? I constantly make bad decisions :oldlol:

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Wade was better when both players where at their best but due to endurance I think Pippen had the better career.

Pippen has 7 superstar years (1991-1997) and 1 extra playoff run as a superstar in 1998. Plus his 2000 blazers run when he lead blazers in multiple categories. So 7 superstar years, 1 extra superstar playoff run in 98 and 1 all-star playoff run in 2000

Wade has just 5 years as a superstar when healthy. I don't think 2012 Wade was ever on 91-98 Pippen's level. 2012 Wade is closer to 2000 Pippen. So 5 superstar years and 1 all-star playoff run

There's a lot more to Pippen's resume because he wasn't always injured and his prime wasn't cut so short like Wade.

[1987_Lakers]

Wade was a better player.

[RRR3]

Wade was better when both players where at their best but due to endurance I think Pippen had the better career.

Pippen has 7 superstar years (1991-1997) and 1 extra playoff run as a superstar in 1998. Plus his 2000 blazers run when he lead blazers in multiple categories. So 7 superstar years, 1 extra superstar playoff run in 98 and 1 all-star playoff run in 2000

Wade has just 5 years as a superstar when healthy. I don't think 2012 Wade was ever on 91-98 Pippen's level. 2012 Wade is closer to 2000 Pippen. So 5 superstar years and 1 all-star playoff run

There's a lot more to Pippen's resume because he wasn't always injured and his prime wasn't cut so short like Wade.
What? Wade averaged 22.1/4.8/4.6/1.7/1.3 on 55.9 TS% in only 33.2 MPG in 2012. He had a BPM of 7.9 (3rd in the league after LeBron and CP3) and the Heat were +8.5 per 100 possessions with him on the court.

[LeCroix]

2007 Wade- Swept in the first round as defending champs

2008 Wade- Injured

2009 Wade- Lost in 1st round as the favorite

2010 Wade- Quit in the first round

2011 Wade- Choked in the Finals


Which of those years was Wade good?

exactly

mvp voting, team wins

wade

2006, 6th in mvp
2007, no mvp placing
2008, no mvp placing
2009, 3rd in mvp
2010, no mvp placing
2011, 7th in mvp

zero 55 win seasons from 06 to 11 :lol capped out at 52 with shaq :lol
pippen did 55 wins with horrace grant

vs 2 years of 1st option pippen

94, 3rd in mvp
95, 7th in mvp

is this a joke? Wade had 6 years as #1 option prime and needed shaq to get to 52 wins and best mvp place was 3rd
pippen matched the 3rd in mvp placing with horrace effing grant and won 55 games....in 2 years as #1 option

[3ball]

.
13-14 Wade = prime Pippen stats (20/5/5 in 13' Finals), plus better production in 14' Playoffs vs 93':


Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


Finals Stats

Wade 11-14....... 21.1 ppg.. 5.2 rpg.. 4.5 apg.. 47.9%
Pippen Career... 19.0 ppg.. 8.3 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 42.5%



Ultimately, Wade's top accomplishment is better than Pippen's as a 1st or 2nd option, and he had better stats and character

[Roundball_Rock]

It is funny how people are acting like they had vastly different careers.

All-NBA teams: Wade 8, Pippen 7
All-NBA first teams: Pippen 3, Wade 3
Top 5 MVP finishes: Pippen 2, Wade 2 (both had a 3rd and a 5th)
All-star: Wade 13, Pippen 7
All-D: Pippen 10, Wade 3
All-D 1st teams: Pippen 8, Wade 0
FMVP: Wade 1, Pippen 0

The all-NBA 1st teams and MVP voting sticks out to me. Wade's argument is a better peak yet he managed less 1st teams and had the same MVP results, despite having a lot longer run as a #1 option.

Wade VORP:

2004-05 NBA 4.9 (13th)
2005-06 NBA 7.1 (5th)
2006-07 NBA 4.9 (11th)
2008-09 NBA 9.6 (3rd)
2009-10 NBA 7.9 (2nd)
2010-11 NBA 6.1 (4th)
2011-12 NBA 4.0 (4th)
2012-13 NBA 3.8 (14th)

Pippen VORP:

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)

[HBK_Kliq_2]

What? Wade averaged 22.1/4.8/4.6/1.7/1.3 on 55.9 TS% in only 33.2 MPG in 2012. He had a BPM of 7.9 (3rd in the league after LeBron and CP3) and the Heat were +8.5 per 100 possessions with him on the court.

I was looking at playoff runs. How do you explain 2012 Wade playing 5 less games then 1996 Pippen and still having less VORP? That tells me Pippen was on another tier in value.

[97 bulls]

This literally never happened. Wade was the best player in the 2011 finals.

The Heat were favored. They lost. PERIOD

[warriorfan]

The Heat were favored. They lost. PERIOD

If Wade has Scottie Pippen instead of LeBron they win in 5

[Roundball_Rock]

I was looking at playoff runs. How do you explain 2012 Wade playing 5 less games then 1996 Pippen and still having less VORP? That tells me Pippen was on another tier in value.


If you pro-rate their VORP's during finals runs over 82 games Pippen is at 6.56 and Wade 6.0.

Here are their VORP's during their finals runs:

Wade (06', 11'-14'): 2.7, 2.2, 1.7, 1.0, 0.5 (1.62 average)
Pippen (91'-93', 96'-98'): 1.5, 2.0, 0.8, 1.8, 1.4, 1.6 (1.52 average)

Wade played 23, 21, 23, 22, 20 games (22 games average); Pippen 17, 22, 19, 18, 19, 21 (19 games average).

It is interesting Wade consistently got worse during each run.

At any rate, we aren't seeing any data to support the view that Wade somehow is on another tier than Pippen.

[Whoah10115]

Roundball really has shown his colors. It's clear he's only trying to say one thing.

And 97 Bulls...to appreciate how truly great Pippen is, you have to really pay attention and know your stuff.

Same applies to 2011 or any other season. You hold that against Wade, you've gotten it wrong. It's as simple as that.

[Roundball_Rock]

Damn, you got me! I am guilty of saying Pippen and Wade are comparable--like every single all-time list has.

The funny thing is Pippen is winning the poll 7-5, even with the anti-Pippen vote among MJ stans out there.

[juju151111]

Pippen has never i repeat never led shit to the finals or best player on a finals team. Stop it. Yall some clowns

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen has never i repeat never led shit to the finals or best player on a finals team. Stop it. Yall some clowns

Zzzz....he had one prime playoff run as the best player. It is really dumb to use that against him.

Ewing, Barkley, Malone, Robinson, Drexler had entire careers where they couldn't win as the best player.

[Lebron23]

Dwayne Wade but Pippen was the best 2nd scoring option in The 1990's.

[LeCroix]

If Wade has Scottie Pippen instead of LeBron they win in 5

who does curry need to win a fmvp?

klay, iggy, durant, draymond wasnt enough

who does he need? giannis? jordan?

[WhiteKyrie]

Wade and it isn’t remotely close. 2005 - 2012 Wade is just a whole other level. Alpha caliber superstar. The 3rd or at worst 4th best SG of all time. Scottie isn’t close to five best SF ever.

[RRR3]

The Heat were favored. They lost. PERIOD
That was LeBron’s fault, not Wade’s. Bosh wasn’t exactly great either.

[juju151111]

He wasn't doing good his 2nd year by himself either and im not going to give Pippen something he has never done to appease delusional Pippen stans. He not even better than david Robinson or barkley

[Roundball_Rock]

Wade and it isn’t remotely close. 2005 - 2012 Wade is just a whole other level. Alpha caliber superstar.

Then how do you explain this?

All-NBA 1st teams: Pippen 3, Wade 2
Top 5 MVP finishes: 2 each (one 3rd and one 5th for both)
All-NBA teams: Wade 8, Pippen 7

So Wade is on another level, etc. yet their resumes are identical in these key metrics.

The only explanation I can think of is Wade was in a much tougher era (where MVP's, all-NBA 1st teams, etc. were tougher to come by)--but I doubt the people pushing Wade in this thread will take that position...


He not even better than david Robinson or barkley

How many rings did they win as the best player?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Pippen has never i repeat never led shit to the finals or best player on a finals team. Stop it. Yall some clowns

Wade had a 3x finals MVP in Shaq on his team, Pippen had Horace Grant lol

Shaq wasn't the great player he once was by 2006 but he was still averaging 21\10\2 in the ECF.

Don't forget the game 7 ECF 2006: Shaq - 28 points, 16 rebounds, 5 blocks, 78% TS
Wade - 14 points, 44% TS

If Pippen had a teammate playing like that in game 7 vs knicks, they advance for sure.

[Roundball_Rock]

Good points.

2005-2007 Heat with Shaq, without Wade: 20-9 (69%)
2005-2007 Heat with Wade, without Shaq: 34-31 (52%)

The numbers for the Heat with LeBron, without Wade and with Wade, without LeBron would tell a similar story. Here is what the Heat did without LeBron (I did this for something else so I am not sure how many of these games Wade played but I bet Wade played all or nearly all these games):

Heat without LeBron (first number) and with LeBron (second number)

2011: 1-2, 57-22
2012: 1-3, 45-17
2013: 5-1, 61-15
2014: 2-3, 52-25
Total: 9-8 without LeBron (53%), 215-79 (73% with LeBron)

So no Shaq or no LeBron and Miami barely is above .500. With LeBron they are a 60 win pace team; with Shaq/without Wade a 57 win pace team.

Bulls without Jordan, with Pippen in 94': 51-21 (71%--70% with MJ in 93')
Bulls without Pippen, with Jordan in 98': 26-12 (68%--82% with Pippen in 98')

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Good points.

2005-2007 Heat with Shaq, without Wade: 20-9 (69%)
2005-2007 Heat with Wade, without Shaq: 34-31 (52%)

The numbers for the Heat with LeBron, without Wade and with Wade, without LeBron would tell a similar story. Here is what the Heat did without LeBron (I did this for something else so I am not sure how many of these games Wade played but I bet Wade played all or nearly all these games):

Heat without LeBron (first number) and with LeBron (second number)

2011: 1-2, 57-22
2012: 1-3, 45-17
2013: 5-1, 61-15
2014: 2-3, 52-25
Total: 9-8 without LeBron (53%), 215-79 (73% with LeBron)

So no Shaq or no LeBron and Miami barely is above .500. With LeBron they are a 60 win pace team; with Shaq/without Wade a 57 win pace team.

Bulls without Jordan, with Pippen in 94': 51-21 (71%--70% with MJ in 93')
Bulls without Pippen, with Jordan in 98': 26-12 (68%--82% with Pippen in 98')

Jordan had them at -1% better in 93
Pippen had them at +14% better in 98

That should tell you something right there. Also the 97 playoffs, Pippen was arguably the most valuable player. Bulls held Miami to a 93 offensive rating in the ECF! And we all know who was the defensive anchor of that 2nd 3peat.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan had them at -1% better in 93
Pippen had them at +14% better in 98

That should tell you something right there.

Not alpha doe. Guys on the internet can determine who is "alpha" and "beta" whatever that BS means.

[juju151111]

none, Barkley led his team to the finals and played better in playoffs. David Robinson won mvp. Playoffs better. Just stop it

[PoutinPippin]

Come on, this is Flash. Easy.

Scottie Quittin? Nah.

Was difficult for Wade to get first team or first team defense over unfortunately playing against the second best player ever at his own position.

2005 - 2013
26/5/6 49%

1990 - 1998
20/7/6 49%

Not close.

The gap in offense is greater than that what it was defensively. That’s with those final 2 seasons needing to take a direct back seat statistically to accommodate a fragile ego and psyche in LeBron James. LeBron Ball is you will.

[juju151111]

Barkley 27 and 13 on 50% in the playoffs. Scottie Pippen 22,9,6 on 43% refuse to go in game. 5.5 Bpm lol stop it.

[juju151111]

he has 6 nba tiltes,how many titles you have loser?????????????????????????

Scottie 100% better than me

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ stans pushing Wade ahead of Pippen on the poll--these are the same people who voted Kyrie>Pippen a week ago. :lol

We should do a Pippen versus Charles Smith poll and see how MJ stans vote.

[LostCause]

It’s surprising to me that people are really in their feelings because folks have Wade as a superior player to Scottie Pippen. Like SouBeach said, on an all time list sure it’s debatable, but as far as who’s the better player that’s definitely Wade

But let’s be insecure and blame “stans” or agendas for the difference of opinion Even though there are people confirmed voting more than once in FAVOR of Pippen (Manny). You folks are delusional at this point lol.

[knicksman]

Not alpha doe. Guys on the internet can determine who is "alpha" and "beta" whatever that BS means.

alphas get to choose what they want and alphas would definitely choose scoring over everything else. Its the betas who will settle for less. The ones left which is passing, rebounding or defense will be done by betas. But of course jordan is dependent on pippen whereas pippen isnt. So if you remove pippen everything crumbles coz jordan will be force to play pippens role whereas if you remove jordan, nobody changes role so theres no huge effect in wins and losses. But if you want to win, you need these alphas. Just look at the effect of jordan on SRS.

Bulls without jordan = 2.87
Bulls with jordan = 10.07



You need both to win but since alphas are the hardest to find, you always get them first. You can always find betas but not alphas.

[RRR3]

OP asked who was better, so I'm not sure why this result is surprising anyone. Here's an extreme example to make my point: who was better between Bill Walton and Ray Allen? Sure, Allen produced much more career value, but does anyone honestly think he was a better player than Bill Walton?

[Roundball_Rock]

OP asked who was better, so I'm not sure why this result is surprising anyone.

The result is MJ stan driven. These are the same people who voted Kyrie>Pippen a week ago. This isn't a legit gauge on Wade vs. Pippen. These nuts would vote Dell Curry over Pippen. :lol

Ray Allen and Walton don't have the same accolades.

I haven't gotten an answer from anyone: if Wade>>>Pippen why do they have the same MVP results (peaked at 3rd) and similar all-NBA results? Pippen actually has more all-NBA 1st teams. People are talking about prime Wade like he was prime Jordan. I get people who have Wade over Pippen but this notion that they had vastly different levels in their primes is belied by their resumes.

[97 bulls]

The result is MJ stan driven. These are the same people who voted Kyrie>Pippen a week ago. This isn't a legit gauge on Wade vs. Pippen. These nuts would vote Dell Curry over Pippen. :lol

Ray Allen and Walton don't have the same accolades.

I haven't gotten an answer from anyone: if Wade>>>Pippen why do they have the same MVP results (peaked at 3rd) and similar all-NBA results? Pippen actually has more all-NBA 1st teams. People are talking about prime Wade like he was prime Jordan. I get people who have Wade over Pippen but this notion that they had vastly different levels in their primes is belied by their resumes.

I said a vote for Wade is a vote for Jordan. I'm surprised it's this close.

[SouBeachTalents]

I haven't gotten an answer from anyone: if Wade>>>Pippen why do they have the same MVP results (peaked at 3rd) and similar all-NBA results? Pippen actually has more all-NBA 1st teams. People are talking about prime Wade like he was prime Jordan. I get people who have Wade over Pippen but this notion that they had vastly different levels in their primes is belied by their resumes.
So do Nash, Westbrook & Iverson, except unlike Pip they all have MVP's. Do you think they were equally as good or better than Wade?

[Roundball_Rock]

I said a vote for Wade is a vote for Jordan. I'm surprised it's this close

Some of the votes for Wade are sincere but it is obvious the result is being driven by MJ stans' agenda. You could put Wade, Irving, Schrempf, Anthony Mason, Alex Caruso, Coby White or any other name and the same people would vote for them over Pippen.

1987_Lakers, BigShotBob, CTbasketball92, Dr Hawk, Duncan21formvp, HoopsNY, Indian guy, juju151111, kuniva_dAMiGhTy, Lebron23, LostCause, RRR3, warriorfan

How many of these are not MJ stans? :lol


So do Nash, Westbrook & Iverson, except unlike Pip they all have MVP's. Do you think they were equally as good or better than Wade?

Those guys have better accolades than Wade & Pippen. MVP's are a big deal as is being a MVP candidate and not being one. Wade & Pippen got to 3rd and 5th in MVP voting but never won it.

The problem with Wade is he got hurt every year. If we are talking a theoretical Wade who never got hurt and played 82 games that is a different conversation but the real Wade got hurt year after year. Eventually that took a toll. It is no coincidence he got worst every finals run.

Let's flip the question. How did Nash win 2 MVP's and Westbrook a MVP in the same era as Wade (Curry won 2 as well and you have other people like Durant, Harden, Dirk, Rose who won 1)? The implication in this thread is Wade had a top 15 prime (if Wade>>>Pippen that is what people are saying). So what happened? 0 MVP's, no second place finishes. One 3rd and one 5th. The same as Pippen, except Wade had almost an entire prime as a #1 option and Pippen had one full prime season (the 5th place finish came in 96'). You would think Wade would be a perennial MVP candidate the way he is being talked about here. So what happened?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Bron fans have some sense left. Good to see.

Again though, Dwyane's prime was just flat-out better. Better volume scorer in the regular-season and playoffs. With better efficiency too. You cant pretend there isn't a gap there. Wade in his prime was an elite playmaker and defender as well, so again it boils down to points. And if you look at the advanced data, everything points exactly to that.

As do the signature playoff performances. Where Wade's 2006 finals run was greater than anything Pippen ever did. Or achieved.

Look at the usual suspects in here :oldlol: No matter what you say or do, history will NEVER be on your side. That's gotta be torture :oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

Some of the votes for Wade are sincere but it is obvious the result is being driven by MJ stans' agenda. You could put Wade, Irving, Schrempf, Anthony Mason, Alex Caruso, Coby White or any other name and the same people would vote for them over Pippen.

1987_Lakers, BigShotBob, CTbasketball92, Dr Hawk, Duncan21formvp, HoopsNY, Indian guy, juju151111, kuniva_dAMiGhTy, Lebron23, LostCause, RRR3, warriorfan

How many of these are not MJ stans? :lol



Those guys have better accolades than Wade & Pippen. MVP's are a big deal as is being a MVP candidate and not being one. Wade & Pippen got to 3rd and 5th in MVP voting but never won it.

The problem with Wade is he got hurt every year. If we are talking a theoretical Wade who never got hurt and played 82 games that is a different conversation but the real Wade got hurt year after year. Eventually that took a toll. It is no coincidence he got worst every finals run.

Let's flip the question. How did Nash win 2 MVP's and Westbrook a MVP in the same era as Wade (Curry won 2 as well and you have other people like Durant, Harden, Dirk, Rose who won 1)? The implication in this thread is Wade had a top 15 prime (if Wade>>>Pippen that is what people are saying). So what happened? 0 MVP's, no second place finishes. One 3rd and one 5th. The same as Pippen, except Wade had almost an entire prime as a #1 option and Pippen had one full prime season (the 5th place finish came in 96'). You would think Wade would be a perennial MVP candidate the way he is being talked about here. So what happened?
You pretty much nailed the reason why, he just couldn't stay healthy, and he had a shorter prime than most ATG's do. His best shot would've been from '09-'11, he actually managed to stay healthy those years, but he was trapped on horrendous rosters for 2 of them then LeBron joined the team, essentially ending any chance he'd ever have at being MVP.

Vast majority of the time, the cream rises to the top and the best players win MVP, but you still need some good timing to do it. Outside of being on a shit team, Wade just had the misfortune of having LeBron enter his peak at the same time. But '09 Wade would've been MVP in a lot of seasons, hell, he had a better year than the MVP's did from '05-'08. Pippen to me is a player where it would take an extremely fortunate circumstance for him to ever win an MVP. A big reason why he got as close as he did in '94 was being able to keep the Bulls afloat with Jordan gone. You take that storyline out of the equation though, is he really finishing ahead of guys like Shaq & Ewing in the MVP voting? Maybe he would, but I'd at least have some skepticism

My point is, claiming Wade was a better player than Pippen has nothing to do with Jordan. To me, not just based on accomplishment but from eye test, watching them both play, Wade was better. In addition to being a well rounded player, he had a scoring gear that Pippen lacked, which is often the critical attribute most superstars and title winning players need

Not that this is the end all, but RealGM had him #16 in peak play, Pippen didn't even make the list

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1909659

[Roundball_Rock]

My point is, claiming Wade was a better player than Pippen has nothing to do with Jordan

For you, RRR, 87' Lakers and a few others it is an honest (and legit) opinion but look at the list of people who voted Wade. These are the same people who voted Kyrie>Pippen a week ago. :oldlol:


Pippen to me is a player where it would take an extremely fortunate circumstance for him to ever be an MVP. A big reason why he got as close as he did in '94 was being able to keep the Bulls afloat with Jordan gone. You take that storyline out of the equation though, is he really finishing ahead of guys like Shaq & Ewing in the MVP voting?

What people forget is he missed 10 games. That cost him MVP votes directly but more importantly it cost the Bulls the #1 seed (4-6 without him, 51-21 with him--the difference between a 58 win pace and a 33 win pace). His narrative would have been much stronger if they won the #1 seed.

He was a MVP candidate because he was a top 5 player on a contender, the same as a majority of MVP candidates. What is the explanation for him getting more all-NBA votes--by far--than Malone and Barkley in the same year? Narratives aren't factors in all-NBA the same way as they are for MVP. That is simply a vote of the best players at F, C, and G. He crushed Malone and Barkley--players who many on ISH swear>>>Pippen even in 94'.

Why wouldn't he be ahead of Ewing? A lot of these players are viewed as more dominant than they were. Ewing never finished higher than 4th in MVP so him being 5th in 94' wasn't surprising. Shaq was an upstart on a 4th seed that was closer to 6th than it was to 3rd. Jordan came back in 95' and pushed Pippen's MVP vote down but he likely would have been in 5th or 6th instead of 7th with MJ back.


Outside of being on a shit team, Wade just had the misfortune of having LeBron enter his peak at the same time.

You can say that about a lot of people. Pippen's 94' season coincided with Hakeem's peak season, for example. Wade wasn't 2nd BTW. He was 3rd in 09'. Then he was 5th in 10'. So he was finishing behind a lot of other people not named LeBron.


You pretty much nailed the reason why, he just couldn't stay healthy, and he had a shorter prime than most ATG's do

True but doesn't that matter? That is why he is around 25 and not 15 in all-time rankings. He wasn't a guy who got hurt here and there. It was an annual occurrence and it took a toll as the years went by.


2 of them then LeBron joined the team, essentially ending any chance he'd ever have at being MVP.

True but you can say that about Pippen for his entire prime outside of one season. Many guys behind Pippen on the all-time list have won MVP's. It is a stretch to say it was inconceivable that he could ever do it. Iverson, Nash, Westbrook, Harden all trail him all-time and won. Then you have MVPs who no one remembers today.


Not that this is the end all, but RealGM had him #16 in peak play, Pippen didn't even make the list

Wade's ranking I can agree with. That same list has Ewing at #23. As noted above, Ewing never finished higher than 4th in MVP (he was 5th in 90'). Now he was more dominant than the peak versions of Durant, Barkley, Giannis, K. Malone? That is not a credible list. The Barkley thing is revealing. No one thought Ewing>Barkley when both were in their primes. Barkley was the MVP candidate along with MJ and Magic in 90'.

[aceman]

Scottie Pippen better overall

[97 bulls]

Scottie Pippen better overall

I agree. I dont see why Wade's 09 season where he avg 30/5/8 in era where the rules were changed to help him score is any more impressive than Pippen in 95 when he led his team in pts, rbds, asts, stls, and blks, while anchoring the defense and offense.

I'd like to know what these guys think Pips numbers would look like if he played today? Easily a peak of 25/10/7 in my opinion.

[GimmeThat]

favor Dwyane Wade due to TS%

[juju151111]

Some of the votes for Wade are sincere but it is obvious the result is being driven by MJ stans' agenda. You could put Wade, Irving, Schrempf, Anthony Mason, Alex Caruso, Coby White or any other name and the same people would vote for them over Pippen.

1987_Lakers, BigShotBob, CTbasketball92, Dr Hawk, Duncan21formvp, HoopsNY, Indian guy, juju151111, kuniva_dAMiGhTy, Lebron23, LostCause, RRR3, warriorfan

How many of these are not MJ stans? :lol



Those guys have better accolades than Wade & Pippen. MVP's are a big deal as is being a MVP candidate and not being one. Wade & Pippen got to 3rd and 5th in MVP voting but never won it.

The problem with Wade is he got hurt every year. If we are talking a theoretical Wade who never got hurt and played 82 games that is a different conversation but the real Wade got hurt year after year. Eventually that took a toll. It is no coincidence he got worst every finals run.

Let's flip the question. How did Nash win 2 MVP's and Westbrook a MVP in the same era as Wade (Curry won 2 as well and you have other people like Durant, Harden, Dirk, Rose who won 1)? The implication in this thread is Wade had a top 15 prime (if Wade>>>Pippen that is what people are saying). So what happened? 0 MVP's, no second place finishes. One 3rd and one 5th. The same as Pippen, except Wade had almost an entire prime as a #1 option and Pippen had one full prime season (the 5th place finish came in 96'). You would think Wade would be a perennial MVP candidate the way he is being talked about here. So what happened?

All the votrs for Pip are Pippen stans

[juju151111]

MJ stans pushing Wade ahead of Pippen on the poll--these are the same people who voted Kyrie>Pippen a week ago. :lol

We should do a Pippen versus Charles Smith poll and see how MJ stans vote.

nobody stans putting Wade above Pippen. Wade is better than Pippem

[aceman]

nobody stans putting Wade above Pippen. Wade is better than Pippem

Go watch dream team matches - no Stockton or Magic so Pippen just slid into traditional point guard no problem.
In 1998 playoffs he was immense defensively shutting down opponents entire offense being everywhere & drawing charges. Man to man is one thing but to disrupt a team to point they fall apart like Utah in 98 is altogether something else.
On offense Pippen was more versatile than wade; he could post up to hit bank shots & hooks, play Jordan jump shooter role or quarter back fast break.
Wade was great two way player but Pippen brought more.

[Phoenix]

Wade peaked higher individually but I'm not sure if you put them on equally talented teams at their best there's much difference in how the team performs. It's like peak Wade was a 9 on offense and a 8.5 on defense vs peak Scottie being like a 7 on offense and a 9.5 defensively. Sooo....

https://media.giphy.com/media/1oKVY32nKs1AA/giphy.gif

They're probably my two favorite players after MJ so I have no particular dog in this fight. Wade's series of nagging injuries even pre-Heatles days prevented him from running off a series of MVP level seasons. 2009 Wade is still the closest *across the board* to prime MJ in terms of two way dominance. Scottie only had 1 3/4 seasons at his peak without MJ. 94 Scottie was spectacular minus the playoff meltdown, and individually he carried that into 95 albeit the team minus Grant was worse.

As far as I'm concerned their legacies are similar.

[SATAN]

Scottie Pippen better overall

This. Wade's prime was better but auto mechanics and janitors aside, Scottie Pippen had the better career.

[RogueBorg]

Wade's the 3rd best SG of all-time. This isn't even close.

[RogueBorg]

If Wade is so good why did he only end up 3/5 compared to Pippens 6/6??

Brother directly impacted by the "3 and 6 Tsunami" of losses.

[Phoenix]

Brother directly impacted by the "3 and 6 Tsunami" of losses.

That is the same poster who shoots down 6/6 when it comes to MJ and Lebron, but all of a sudden it counts when comparing Pippen and Wade.:yaohappy:

[RogueBorg]

These are the same people who voted Kyrie>Pippen a week ago. :oldlol:



You keep making this claim. I don't think Kyrie is better than Pippen and it's not even close.

[RogueBorg]

This. Wade's prime was better but auto mechanics and janitors aside, Scottie Pippen had the better career.

You're one of the loudest guys who proclaim the 90's was full of auto mechanics and plumbers but now you want to forget Pippen played (according to you) against them?

That's some funny s--- right there man.

[Roundball_Rock]

nobody stans putting Wade above Pippen

ESPN: Pippen #21, Wade #26
Slam: Pippen #22, Wade #23
Backpicks: Wade #24, Pippen #25

Noticing a trend outside of the MJ cult?


Wade's the 3rd best SG of all-time

Jerry West easily is. For example:

All-NBA 1st teams: West 10, Wade 2

The position argument is poor. Using that logic Duncan>Wilt, Russell, and Shaq because Duncan is #1 at his position and those guys aren't.


You keep making this claim.

A clear majority of Wade's votes are coming from insecure MJ stans. :lol

1987_Lakers, BigShotBob, CTbasketball92, Dr Hawk, Duncan21formvp, Hardtop Hero, HoopsNY, Indian guy, jstern, juju151111, kuniva_dAMiGhTy, Lebron23, Leviathon1121, LostCause, Phoenix, RogueBorg, RRR3, SouBeachTalents, warriorfan

[BigShotBob]

ESPN: Pippen #21, Wade #26
Slam: Pippen #22, Wade #23
Backpicks: Wade #24, Pippen #25

Noticing a trend outside of the MJ cult?



Jerry West easily is. For example:

All-NBA 1st teams: West 10, Wade 2

The position argument is poor. Using that logic Duncan>Wilt, Russell, and Shaq because Duncan is #1 at his position and those guys aren't.



A clear majority of Wade's votes are coming from insecure MJ stans. :lol

1987_Lakers, BigShotBob, CTbasketball92, Dr Hawk, Duncan21formvp, Hardtop Hero, HoopsNY, Indian guy, jstern, juju151111, kuniva_dAMiGhTy, Lebron23, Leviathon1121, LostCause, Phoenix, RogueBorg, RRR3, SouBeachTalents, warriorfan

Over half of those dudes aren't MJ stans at all. They just aren't retarded either.

[tpols]

When you look at it logically wade is 3rd best at his position all time. Pippen is probably around top 10 for his position.

And I don't think I've ever seen Pippen ranked above wade on a GOAT list.

[Roundball_Rock]

And I don't think I've ever seen Pippen ranked above wade on a GOAT list.

A list from just last week from ESPN had Pippen ahead of him.

ESPN: Pippen #21, Wade #26
Slam: Pippen #22, Wade #23
Backpicks: Wade #24, Pippen #25

Simmons has Pippen (#28) ahead of Wade too. So four lists and Pippen ahead in three of them.

Let's flip the question since the evidence is pretty obvious for Pippen behing ahead of Wade on lists: can anyone produce a GOAT list that has Wade far ahead of Pippen? The lists I have seen have them in the same tier, with Pippen ahead of Wade more often than not. Where are these supposed lists where Wade>>>Pippen?

Wade is not the 3rd best at his position all-time. West is. 10 all-NBA 1st teams versus 2. They aren't even close.

Using your logic, Duncan>Wilt and Russell because Duncan played a weaker position, ergo he is better.

Wade recently retired so it is unclear where he will fall when the historical dust settles but all this "Wade>>>Pippen" or "I am shocked Pippen would be ahead of Wade" is belied by the existing sentiment. I think it is delusional to think Wade will pull away from Pippen, who has settled into the top 20-30 range. Wade is at his ceiling. He can't get into the top 15-20 range so he will remain in the same tier as Pippen.

[RogueBorg]

.

Wade is not the 3rd best at his position all-time. West is. 10 all-NBA 1st teams versus 2. They aren't even close.



Take that 10-2 All-NBA in context. West's main competition at SG back in the 60's was Hal Greer. Wade's main competition during his time was Kobe Bryant, the 2nd greatest SG of all-time. Is Hal Greer on ANYONE'S all-time SG list? It's debatable whether West was a PG or SG. On Basketball reference he's listed as PG first. West played at time when a 6'-5" SF averaged 38 ppg and 18 rpg.

If the 90's were plumbers and mechanics, the 60's were midgets.

Wade is the 3rd best SG ever.

[PoutinPippin]

Wade is either 3rd or at worst 4th best SG ever. West and him could be flip flopped.

Meanwhile Scottie isn’t close at SF:

1) LeBron
2) Bird
3) Durant
4) Baylor
5) Erving
6) Leonard
7) Havlicek
8) Barry
9) Worthy
10) Nique

Then Pippen. All those guys were franchise alpha cornerstones. Better production. Rings. Finals MVPs etc.


I said a vote for Wade is a vote for Jordan. I'm surprised it's this close.
Or a vote for Wade is a vote for the better player LOL which is what is being asked.

Why would a vote for Wade be a vote for Jordan, who isn’t apart of the poll?

What’s not odd AT ALL is literally the only people voting for Pippen are LeBron Stans or alts of said accounts. That’s literally it.

[Roundball_Rock]

All-NBA is done on a F/C/G basis, not by PG or SG. Yeah Wade had Kobe but West had Oscar as his comp. Anyway, Kobe and Oscar take just 1 spot. Who was getting the other guard spot? In the 60's it was West; it wasn't Wade, outside of two years.


It's debatable whether West was a PG or SG

He is considered a SG. There was no formal distinction between PG and SG in the 60's.


West played at time when a 6'-5" SF averaged 38 ppg and 18 rpg.

Barkley was 6'4" and played in a time where he led the league in rebounding and actually was able to play PF, not SF. See how cherry picking works in every direction?

[Phoenix]

ESPN: Pippen #21, Wade #26
Slam: Pippen #22, Wade #23
Backpicks: Wade #24, Pippen #25

Noticing a trend outside of the MJ cult?



Jerry West easily is. For example:

All-NBA 1st teams: West 10, Wade 2

The position argument is poor. Using that logic Duncan>Wilt, Russell, and Shaq because Duncan is #1 at his position and those guys aren't.



A clear majority of Wade's votes are coming from insecure MJ stans. :lol

1987_Lakers, BigShotBob, CTbasketball92, Dr Hawk, Duncan21formvp, Hardtop Hero, HoopsNY, Indian guy, jstern, juju151111, kuniva_dAMiGhTy, Lebron23, Leviathon1121, LostCause, Phoenix, RogueBorg, RRR3, SouBeachTalents, warriorfan

Some guys on that list arent MJ stans mate. I'm the first to say I'm a Jordan guy but I also grew up on the 90s Bulls and they are really the only team that I've ever considered 'my team' before they broke up. Scottie is probably my 2nd favorite player so I have no reason to say I think Wade was better outside of thinking that.....I just see Wade as being better peak for peak. I mean you got guys like Indianguy and Lebron23 who are big Lebron guys and they voted Wade. Southbeachtalents is more a Heat guy( obviously) and from what I can tell likes Lebron but doesnt have any special allegiance to him outside of the fact that he gave Miami 4 years. 87 Lakers is very critical of MJ, he voted Wade. Kuniva is a MJ guy but very level-headed analysis, ditto for a few others.

Not everyone voted Wade because we're using him to drop Pip down a few notches. I mean, on this forum it's hard to actually 'not' come off a stan because some of these trolls bait you with stupid arguments and when you retort you're categorized into these zero sum categories of stan and hater. Hell, I don't dislike Lebron but some of the retard arguments you counter around here makes it look like you do. Some of us just want to talk ball without the bullshit.

[RogueBorg]

A West had Oscar as his comp.



That's not true, Oscar was not his main competition. They each were voted 1st Team seven times in the 60's in the same seasons. His main competition at G was Hal Greer and Sam Jones.

Wade having to directly against Kobe was much tougher task and the reason for not having more All-NBA first team selections.

If West could make either guard position and Wade was limited to only SG, Wade had a much tougher time of it.

[Roundball_Rock]

For all-NBA let's compare Pippen to a HOF contemporary during his prime.

Pippen and Barkley in All-NBA (1991-1998)

1991: Barkley 1st
1992: Barkley/Pippen 2nd team
1993: Barkley 1st, Pippen 3rd
1994: Pippen 1st, Barkley 2nd
1995: Pippen 1st, Barkley 2nd
1996: Pippen 1st, Barkley 3rd
1997: Pippen 2nd
1998: Pippen 3rd

So Pippen trails Barkley the first three years and then beats him every year (even though we have people who swear Barkley was always better than Pippen).

For Wade we no one of Barkley's caliber at guard. Kobe was on another level and then guys like Chris Paul, Westbrook are a tier below.

Wade and Paul in All-NBA (2005-2012)

2005: Wade 2nd
2006: Wade 2nd
2007: Wade 3rd
2008: Paul 1st
2009: Wade 1st, Paul 2nd
2010: Wade 1st
2011: Wade 2nd, Paul 3rd

So Wade consistently did well. He just didn't get to 1st often behind a number of other guards not named Kobe.


Not everyone voted Wade because we're using him to drop Pip down a few notches

Sure but a lot of these people voted for Irving over Pippen last week too. They also are in every Pippen thread saying how much Pippen sucked. It is obvious why. Wade, Irving, Randy Brown. They will vote the same way.

[Roundball_Rock]

That's not true, Oscar was not his main competition. They each were voted 1st Team seven times in the 60's in the same seasons. His main competition at G was Hal Greer and Sam Jones.

Wade having to directly against Kobe was much tougher task and the reason for not having more All-NBA first team selections.

If West could make either guard position and Wade was limited to only SG, Wade had a much tougher time of it.

That is not how all-NBA works. As stated earlier, it is on a F/C/G basis. Being a SG or PG is irrelevant as is being a SF or PF (Pippen had Malone, Barkley at PF and Nique at SF during his prime). Oscar and Kobe both took 1 guard spot, leaving 1 for Wade and West to compete for (or you could say West took 1 spot, leaving Oscar to compete for the other).

Here are all-NBA 1st team guards not named Kobe from 2005-2013:

2005: Nash, Iverson
2006: Nash
2007: Nash
2008: Paul
2009: Wade
2010: Wade
2011: Rose
2012: Rose
2013: Paul

Plenty of room at the table after Kobe so that excuse does not fly.

[Doranku]

Career wise, it's pretty close but as far as who the better player was, I'd take '05-'11 Wade over any 6 year stretch from Pippen. It's a hard comparison to make because we only got to see Scottie play as a #1 option for 1.5 years during his prime. Regardless though, I don't think he was capable of reaching the level that Wade did in the '06 finals to lead a team to a championship.

Also, I'm pretty shocked that Wade has zero first team All-D selections. He was an elite defender at the SG position for most of his career.

[Phoenix]

That's not true, Oscar was not his main competition. They each were voted 1st Team seven times in the 60's in the same seasons. His main competition at G was Hal Greer and Sam Jones.

Wade having to directly against Kobe was much tougher task and the reason for not having more All-NBA first team selections.

If West could make either guard position and Wade was limited to only SG, Wade had a much tougher time of it.

Wade wasn't limited to SG, Wade and Kobe both made first team in 08-09 and 09-10 as shooting guards. Wade's first all-NBA first team quality year was 06. You had Kobe rightfully at one spot, and Nash keeping the Suns afloat with Amare injured was given the other spot, but I don't think anyone would say Nash was a better player. In 07, Wade was playing at an MVP level before he got injured and most likely would have gotten first team. In 08, he was injured. 09, first team. In 2011, he was better than Rose but Rose was leading the Bulls to 62 wins so Wade dropped to second team. After that he slowly started coming off his peak and Lebron took over the Heat.

So TDLR it was less about Kobe blocking him in some years, and moreso Wade's heath(07,08) or narratives ( Nash in 06, Rose in 11) taking the other spot even if Wade was better those the latter two. Though I will say, Wade could and should have been first team over Kobe in 2011, but it seemed like the voters were on auto-pilot around that time( same with some of his all defensive selections).

[Phoenix]

Sure but a lot of these people voted for Irving over Pippen last week too. They also are in every Pippen thread saying how much Pippen sucked. It is obvious why. Wade, Irving, Randy Brown. They will vote the same way.

Those are the ones you have to cross-reference. I've made my own feelings on Kyrie very clearly. Great talent but not someone I'd pick to lead a team with any hope of competing for a title.

[Roundball_Rock]

You can do that with any player though since the gaps with the all-NBA 1st and the best 2nd team guys often isn't large. For example, I would argue Pippen deserved it over Hill in 97' but Hill had the "next MJ" narrative and Sprite commercials going for him.

Hill 97': 21/9/7
Pippen 97': 20/7/6

So similar stats but Pippen was dominant defensively and Hill wasn't. In 98' Pippen missed half the season so he had no shot at the 1st or 2nd team, similar to Wade in 08'. The Bulls went from #1 in scoring to #18 without him. We have yet to hear an explanation for this. That suggests he was worth 10 PPG to the offense's efficiency. Too bad there is no stat for that on a player card but it shows in the W-L column.

Nash, Rose literally were MVP of the league. I don't see how they wouldn't deserve 1st team all-NBA. The only time a MVP isn't 1st team is if a C is involved and there is only one spot and the different voters conflict (Wilt, Russell).

You said Wade played at a MVP level in 2007. So why did Miami do the same without him? You lose the MVP, top 15 GOAT, etc. for 31 games and there is zero drop-off?


Those are the ones you have to cross-reference. I've made my own feelings on Kyrie very clearly. Great talent but not someone I'd pick to lead a team with any hope of competing for a title.

Put another way, you always see them saying how every player is better than Pippen no matter who he is being compared to. These days we are hearing Kevin Johnson>Pippen, which is laughable but here we are with today's fans of a retired SG.

[Phoenix]

Career wise, it's pretty close but as far as who the better player was, I'd take '05-'11 Wade over any 6 year stretch from Pippen. It's a hard comparison to make because we only got to see Scottie play as a #1 option for 1.5 years during his prime. Regardless though, I don't think he was capable of reaching the level that Wade did in the '06 finals to lead a team to a championship.

Also, I'm pretty shocked that Wade has zero first team All-D selections. He was an elite defender at the SG position for most of his career.

Kobe has a number of first team nods after 2003 which, to be kind, were more on prior reputation than on reality. As he took on a bigger offensive role he became far more spotty in his defense. I wouldn't say Kobe returned to a legitimate first team level defender until 2008. That was really the first year he recommitted to defense, because those mid 2000 seasons when he was dropping his biggest scoring numbers, he was neither at the defensive level of 2000-2002 nor 2008 and 2009.

[Phoenix]

Nash, Rose literally were MVP of the league. I don't see how they wouldn't deserve 1st team all-NBA. The only time a MVP isn't 1st team is if a C is involved and there is only one spot and the different voters conflict (Wilt, Russell).

You said Wade played at a MVP level in 2007. So why did Miami do so well without him?



It's not that they didn't deserve it, but they weren't the best player in any of their seasons. You have seasons where the MVP happens to align with also clearly being the best player. Nobody thought Nash was even close to the best player in the league either of his MVP years, nor Rose in 2011. Doesn't mean their MVPs weren't warranted, but also doesn't mean they were the best players those seasons either.

As for Wade, by playing at an MVP level I mean moreso he was having a 'best player in the league' start to 07 coming off the championship. That was the conversation at that time. The team doing well without him doesn't change that, but when you say 'why did the team do well without him', I'm taking it to mean they should stink if he's not on the floor and that determines his 'value'. That doesn't mean Wade wasn't arguably the best player in 07 pre-injury or warranted strong consideration. Remember that you've been making the argument that the 94 Bulls record indicates that MJ had a good team around him, but that doesn't make him any less a player. It's fair to give Wade that same consideration that him being the best player in 07 ( arguably) and having a team that doesn't suck when he's off the floor, aren't mutually exclusive.

[Roundball_Rock]

Remember that you've been making the argument that the 94 Bulls record indicates that MJ had a good team around him, but that doesn't make him any less a player

The difference is the Bulls had a drop-off. They remained at a high level but there was a drop-off. Miami did not. Meanwhile whenever Shaq was out Miami became a .500 team, a trend we saw repeated with LeBron and Wade years later. So they absorbed losing Wade time and again but couldn't do the same with Shaq or LeBron.

With Pippen the Bulls also consistently declined and Pippen was not even a top 10 player of his own era, according to some of those voting for Wade in this pol.


The team doing well without him doesn't change that, but when you say 'why did the team do well without him', I'm taking it to mean they should stink if he's not on the floor and that determines his 'value'.

If you lose the best player in the league and a top 15 all-time player (which is what we are hearing here that Wade was peak wise) yes you would expect a noticeable decline. We didn't see it with Wade. We didn't see it with Kobe. Yet we saw it with those teams teams without Shaq in LA, Shaq in MIA, and LeBron.

Maybe there is an explanation but I have not seen any presented. I suspect these teams offset losing these high scoring SGs by more team ball and better shot selection absent them. Those 20-25 shots have to go somewhere and not all to one player.

I am open to an alternative explanation but I have raised this to talk about how great Shaq was many times and never got a real answer as to why those teams sucked without Shaq but not without Kobe, Wade.

[Phoenix]

The difference is the Bulls had a drop-off. They remained at a high level but there was a drop-off. Miami did not. Meanwhile whenever Shaq was out Miami became a .500 team, a trend we saw repeated with LeBron and Wade years later. So they absorbed losing Wade time and again but couldn't do the same with Shaq or LeBron.

With Pippen the Bulls also consistently declined and Pippen was not even a top 10 player of his own era, according to some of those voting for Wade in this pol.



If you lose the best player in the league and a top 15 all-time player (which is what we are hearing here that Wade was peak wise) yes you would expect a noticeable decline. We didn't see it with Wade. We didn't see it with Kobe. Yet we saw it with those teams teams without Shaq in LA, Shaq in MIA, and LeBron.

Maybe there is an explanation but I have not seen any presented.

Ok but Shaq and Lebron are higher impact players. It's not a surprise that a team drops off more without them than without Wade. Shaq in 2007, even with reduced stats and minutes, was still going to suck in enough of the defense and allow other players to thrive. Would that mean he was 'better' in 07 than Wade was? I mean I don't think too many would make that argument even if the teams records with/without them speaks differently.

With Lebron, Wade was already trending downwards after 2011 so again, that the Heat suffered more with Lebron off the floor than Wade isn't breaking news. I mean, what precisely is your argument with respects to Wade? Are you saying he wasn't one of the elites because for much of his peak he had a team ( or a player) that was able to absorb him not being on the floor? Or that his impact was minimal because most of his career was played with two players considered better and/or historically elite impact players? Where are you categorising him as a player? What I'm deducing from your post is that Wade was a player who visually/statistically *looked* impactful but team record without him would suggest he wasn't?

And for what it's worth, I don't know where Wade lands peakwise, but I haven't said he's top 15 all-time. You tend to conflate a bunch of peoples opinions under one umbrella at times.

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is the attitude, from another thread, driving a lot of the Wade votes in this poll:


David Robinson. That's a no brainer.

Jordan/Hakeem/DRob/Shaq/Barkley/Ewing/Malone/Drexler/GP

Are probably the only players I'd take over Pippen. Far as an ALL 90s decade team.

Nique was better than Pippen in the early 90s. Think you could argue some years for Stockton too. And Penny/Grant Hill in the late 90s.

Not to mention Kemp, Mitch Richmond, Mutumbo, Zo', Reggie Miller, et

You could put Mitch Richmond or Miller in the poll and would get similar results. Meanwhile in the real world Pippen is ranked top 20-30 all-time and closer to the front than the back of that bracket. Miller and Kemp and Zo were better doe'.


Ok but Shaq and Lebron are higher impact players. It's not a surprise that a team drops off more without them than without Wade. Shaq in 2007, even with reduced stats and minutes, was still going to suck in enough of the defense and allow other players to thrive

So old Shaq had more impact than prime Wade?


I mean, what precisely is your argument with respects to Wade?

What we are hearing--and this is a summary of what a lot of people in this thread said (not any particular poster)--is Wade was light years ahead of Pippen. That Wade was this super duper superstar and Pippen on a much lesser tier.

Yet you remove Pippen from the Bulls and the following happens: -12 wins in win pace, -25 wins, -11 wins (all win paces). The offense goes from #1 to #18 even with the GOAT himself there.

You remove "alpha alpha" Wade and...basically nothing happens? It is fascinating, especially since the team wasn't so awesome they could absorb any hit because they couldn't sustain losing LeBron or Shaq.

I found that info doing a thread on behalf of Shaq being great (because Kobe stans kept diminishing him because he had Penny, Kobe, Wade) but that data is fascinating as it is surprising. I don't care about Wade so I haven't done a deep dive on it but it always stuck with me whenever Wade or Kobe are brought up.

[Overdrive]

Wade is fondly remembered and not dissed 24/7 all over the internet by LeBron stans (who are secure enough to acknowledge his greatness) like Pippen is by insecure, rattled MJ stans so people think Wade's resume is much better than it actually was. He and Pippen were very similar accomplishments wise.

That's simply not true. Wade is attacked by Lebron stans just as much as Pippen is by Jordan stans.

The reality is that you're just a thinly veiled Lebron stan. Every thread you enter you push Pippen and talk about how Jordan stans do this and that, when any stan of any player does the same BS with that player's help.

[Phoenix]

Here is the attitude, from another thread, driving a lot of the Wade votes in this poll:



You could put Mitch Richmond or Miller in the poll and would get similar results.



So old Shaq had more impact than prime Wade?



What we are hearing--and this is a summary of what a lot of people in this thread said (not any particular poster)--is Wade was light years ahead of Pippen. That Wade was this super duper superstar and Pippen on a much lesser tier.

Yet you remove Pippen from the Bulls and the following happens: -12 wins in win pace, -25 wins, -11 wins. The offense goes from #1 to #18.

You remove alpha alpha Wade and...basically nothing happens? It is fascinating, especially since the team wasn't so awesome they could absorb any hit because they couldn't sustain losing LeBron or Shaq.

This is what I'm asking you. I'm not close-minded to your argument, it's an interesting comparison and food for thought. Team record in 07( by your word, I haven't looked but will assume you're making a verifiable argument) would suggest the team performed better with Shaq than with Wade over a fair sample size. So does that mean Shaq was still the best Heat player in 07, over Wade, and/or that saying Wade was the best player, or even a top player, is an exaggeration or not quantifiable based on team record without him? As you said, taking guys like Wade and Kobe out of the lineup opens up things for other players. Maybe 2 or 3 other guys are able to come through in ways they wouldn't otherwise, and this positively impacts short term results. I think you'd need to stop short of saying taking Wade or Kobe off those squads means their respective teams become more successful in terms of championships. I mean, replace Kobe with an average shooting guard in 2000-2002. Are the Lakers still winning? What about Wade in 06? Put any average starting quality SG in Wade's place. Are they getting to the finals? Are they winning?

[Roundball_Rock]

This is what I'm asking you. I'm not close-minded to your argument, it's an interesting comparison and food for thought. Team record in 07( by your word, I haven't looked but will assume you're making a verifiable argument) would suggest the team performed better with Shaq than with Wade over a fair sample size

Here is the underlying data:


Los Angeles Lakers

2001: 51-23 (69%), 5-3 (62.5%) without him.
2002: 51-16(76%), 7-8 (47%) without him.
2003: 45-22 (67%), 5-10 (33%) without him.
2004: 49-18 (73%), 7-8 (47%) without him.
Totals: 196-79 (71%), 24-29 (45%) without him.

How did the Lakers do with Shaq, without Kobe, though? Kobe missed significant time in 2000, 2001 and 2004 so let's examine those years.

2000: 12-4 (75%). The Lakers also were 4-0 in games Kobe came off the bench, although he averaged 30 mpg in those games.
2001: 11-3 (79%)
2004: 6-4 (60%). The Lakers went 1-0 with Kobe as a reserve (he played 31 minutes that game)
Total: 29-11 (73%)

How about the Lakers with Kobe, without Shaq?

2001: 5-3 (62.5%)
2002: 7-8 (47%). The Lakers went 1-0 with Shaq coming off the bench (Shaq played 37 minutes).
2003: 5-10 (33%). They went 1-0 with Shaq as a reserve (he played 21 minutes).
2004: 5-3 (62.5%)
Total: 22-24 (48%)

Miami Heat

2005: 53-20 (73%), 6-3 (67%) without him.
2006: 42-17 (71%), 10-13 (43%) without him. 1-0 with Shaq on the bench (23 minutes).
2007: 25-15 (62.5%), 19-23 (45%) without him. 0-1 with Shaq on the bench (14 minutes).
Totals: 120-52 (70%), 35-39 (47%) without him.

How about the Heat with Shaq, without Wade? Wade missed 7 games in 2006 and 31 in 2007.

2006: 4-1 (80%)
2007: 16-8 (67%)
Total: 20-9 (69%)

How about the Heat with Wade, without Shaq?

2005: 5-3 (62.5%)
2006: 11-11 (50%)
2007: 18-17 (51%)
Total: 34-31 (52%)

Recap

1996 Magic: 40-14 (74%) with Shaq, 22-8 (73%) without him.
1997 Magic: 45-37.

2000's Lakers with Shaq, without Kobe: 29-11 (73%)
2000's Lakers with Kobe, without Shaq: 22-24 (48%)

2005-2007 Heat with Shaq, without Wade: 20-9 (69%)
2005-2007 Heat with Wade, without Shaq: 34-31 (52%)


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?348156-Diminishing-Shaq-because-of-his-superstar-guards

I'm not sure what drives it. We have a couple Wade people here intermixed with "others" so curious what their explanation would be. With Kobe I think it is more clear: Kobe's low efficiency was replaced by more team basketball and better shot selection. Wade, though, was a good efficiency player so there isn't as easy an explanation.


That's simply not true. Wade is attacked by Lebron stans just as much as Pippen is by Jordan stans.

Well, let's look at the front page of ISH, shall we?

*Wade vs. Pippen
*Barkley vs. Pippen in the 90's
*Robinson vs. Pippen
*Pippen a bad teammate

All intended to be "Pippen sucks" threads. Where are the anti-Wade threads? If you make a claim, back it up. This is the second time you have said this but you can never show the receipts to justify your claim. LeBron stans largely leave Wade alone, other than Manny and the Mamba4Life guy. Shall we look at the anti-Pippen MJ stan list? :lol How about on social media? Where are the Wade sucks memes?


The reality is that you're just a thinly veiled Lebron stan

Kobe stan, Pippen stan, LeBron stan, Kareem stan. Maybe my name is just Stan?

[97 bulls]

Great posts Rock. I'd like to see some poignant responses to your assessments.

I'd also like to know why no one acknowledges that Wade's numbers were so high due to the rule changes. Year after year, the league would change rules to manufacture a player to market like Jordan.

[Roundball_Rock]

Great posts Rock. I'd like to see some poignant responses to your assessments.

I'd also like to know why no one acknowledges that Wade's numbers were so high due to the rule changes. Year after year, the league would change rules to manufacture a player to market like Jordan.

:cheers:

The MJ/90's peeps always bring up how weak the rules are today but you never see them say a word about the rules in any Pippen thread (he scored 22 in the 90's so he would score exactly that today--meanwhile MJ would go from 33 to 50!). :roll:

I think the Wade people will respond but the MJ people will bail on the thread. They don't care about Wade. He was just the weapon to diss Pippen here. In other threads it is Barkley, Robinson. Last week Irving. The beat goes on.

[Roundball_Rock]

Now they are saying Iggy=Pippen here http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480162-What-would-Scottie-Pippens-number-look-like-in-this-era :roll:

No agenda, right?

[red1]

wade is obviously the better player but he's had his share of injuries as well as lifelong knee issues - scottie was the type of player who played through migraines and never got injured despite the heavy load he carried for the bulls, even leading them to 55 wins once.


I'll take wade as a first option and scottie as a 2nd option.

[Phoenix]

There's no genuinely great wing in the past 30 years of basketball whose numbers aren't enhanced today, not in this pace and space era. Prime Scottie in 2020 is likely along the lines of a 24/9/9 guy. Depends on the offense and those around him. Throw him in a Mike D'Antonio system and he's probably something like a 26/10/9 guy. He's not going to score close to Harden but if Harden can get 10-11 assists and 8 rebounds a few years ago I can easily bet my lunch money Scottie would board better and assist somewhere in that ballpark. That's just dropping him into 2020 as is and not theorising about whether he develops a decent 3 and all the other gymnastics people apply. Actually, I'm not even sure Scottie doesn't play alot at the 4 today. He's built for modern positional-less basketball.

[Roundball_Rock]

In 97_Bulls' thread they are saying Pippen would be Iggy in today's league (without realizing what that implies about MJ's era).

[SouBeachTalents]

wade is obviously the better player but he's had his share of injuries as well as lifelong knee issues - scottie was the type of player who played through migraines and never got injured despite the heavy load he carried for the bulls, even leading them to 55 wins once.


I'll take wade as a first option and scottie as a 2nd option.
Would you really though? With Jordan or most elite wings sure, but if I had an elite big like a Shaq/Duncan/KG/Dirk, I would rather have Wade than Pippen

[Overdrive]

Well, let's look at the front page of ISH, shall we?

*Wade vs. Pippen
*Barkley vs. Pippen in the 90's
*Robinson vs. Pippen
*Pippen a bad teammate

All intended to be "Pippen sucks" threads. Where are the anti-Wade threads? If you make a claim, back it up. This is the second time you have said this but you can never show the receipts to justify your claim. LeBron stans largely leave Wade alone, other than Manny and the Mamba4Life guy. Shall we look at the anti-Pippen MJ stan list? :lol How about on social media? Where are the Wade sucks memes?



Kobe stan, Pippen stan, LeBron stan, Kareem stan. Maybe my name is just Stan?

Two weeks ago the frontpage was full of Pippenpraise threads. I said back then Pippen is a proxy for the Jordan Lebron debate.

I'd love to talk about Pippen in a reasonable way. He's my fav Bull from any era and unlike Jordan a cool guy from a miserable background( before the docu didn't know how miserable). I kind of can relate to him, but this board doesn't do him justice either way.

Wade was attacked on the regular during Lebron's Miami stay and even after. Pauk iirc created a thread that blamed Wade for losing in '11, because he intimitated Lebron or something like that. There are plenty of examples until this day. Too bad ISH has no search option.

You don't argue as simplicistic as most stans, but you only accept arguments from one side of the spectrum. That is how usually stans behave. You automatically side with the Lebroncrowd, because you don't like how Jordan stans argue. Well it's the same for Lebron.

[red1]

Would you really though? With Jordan or most elite wings sure, but if I had an elite big like a Shaq/Duncan/KG/Dirk, I would rather have Wade than Pippen

if I had wade as the first option I'd take scottie as the second option.


pippen is the perfect second option minus the stealing your girl part.

[WhiteKyrie]

There's no genuinely great wing in the past 30 years of basketball whose numbers aren't enhanced today, not in this pace and space era. Prime Scottie in 2020 is likely along the lines of a 24/9/9 guy. Depends on the offense and those around him. Throw him in a Mike D'Antonio system and he's probably something like a 26/10/9 guy. He's not going to score close to Harden but if Harden can get 10-11 assists and 8 rebounds a few years ago I can easily bet my lunch money Scottie would board better and assist somewhere in that ballpark. That's just dropping him into 2020 as is and not theorising about whether he develops a decent 3 and all the other gymnastics people apply. Actually, I'm not even sure Scottie doesn't play alot at the 4 today. He's built for modern positional-less basketball.
Agreed. It's also the same reason, I see Jordan, with all that pace and space and no rim protectors or physicality on the interior or perimeter ... plausibly putting up near 40 - 45 ppg.

[Roundball_Rock]

Wade was attacked on the regular during Lebron's Miami stay and even after.

Yes, and LeBron left Miami in 2014. It is now 2020. Where are the Wade bashing threads here? Where are the army of LeBron fans dissing him? Where are the memes? You cannot produce any evidence because it does not exist. I can go to any sports group on FB or any Twitter thread and show you MJ fans dissing Pippen non-stop. Is Nick Wright dissing Wade like Bayless and MJ stans in the media diss Pippen? I saw Bayless doing it just yesterday on my Facebook feed. Where is Wright and Sharpe doing the same with Wade?

Jordan stans are unique because they are so insecure, and now rattled too.


I'd love to talk about Pippen in a reasonable way

All I see you is complain about a handful of pro-Pippen people (Pippen fans--not everybody is a Jordan, LeBron, and Kobe fan--shocking, right? What world do you all live in? Go to a store and look at jerseys being sold--it isn't all Jordan, LeBron, Kobe :rolleyes:) but not a word about Pippen being dissed and compared to Iggy or Mo Williams. But you are the champion of reasonableness. Drop the charade.

[Overdrive]

Yes, and LeBron left Miami in 2014. It is now 2020. Where are the Wade bashing threads here? Where are the army of LeBron fans dissing him? Where are the memes? You cannot produce any evidence because it does not exist. I can go to any sports group on FB or any Twitter thread and show you MJ fans dissing Pippen non-stop. Is Nick Wright dissing Wade like Bayless and MJ stans in the media diss Pippen? I saw Bayless doing it just yesterday on my Facebook feed. Where is Wright and Sharpe doing the same with Wade?

Jordan stans are unique because they are so insecure, and now rattled too.



All I see you is complain about a handful of pro-Pippen people (Pippen fans--not everybody is a Jordan, LeBron, and Kobe fan--shocking, right? What world do you all live in? Go to a store and look at jerseys being sold--it isn't all Jordan, LeBron, Kobe :rolleyes:) but not a word about Pippen being dissed and compared to Iggy or Mo Williams. But you are the champion of reasonableness. Drop the charade.

I already told you I don't follow US media.

It might surprise you, but none of the three mentioned players is close to being my fav and yet I defended either against stupid trolling in the past.

I never complained about pro Pippen people. I complained about obvious Lebrontrolls using him as a tool to tear down Jordan.

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is what Back Picks' says about Wade's teams with/without him:


From 2011-13, he missed 20 games and the Heat improved without him (from a 61-win pace to a 63-win pace). In 2014, he missed 22 games and Miami fell from a 55-win pace (4.8 SRS) to a 50-win one without him (2.9 SRS). More granular play-by-play data tells the same story: Miami was +6.9 per 100 possessions from 2011-14 with LeBron on the court sans Wade, but just +1.0 over the same period with Wade on the floor without LeBron.


Wade missed 17 games that year (2004), and without him an otherwise healthy team posted a -1.7 SRS (36-win pace), down from their 2.1 SRS with him (47-win clip). Even that underscores Wade’s rookie abilities; he stumbled in October and November while adjusting to the league, but his improvement afterwards was commensurate with Miami’s growth as a team. The Heat played at a 51-win pace (3.3 SRS) in 37 full-strength games after December 1, and most of the improvement was on offense, where they moved from +1.2 (rORtg) to +2.8.

A lot of the rest of the article talks about SRS when he was healthy. https://backpicks.com/2018/02/15/backpicks-goat-22-dwyane-wade/

[Whoah10115]

Two weeks ago the frontpage was full of Pippenpraise threads. I said back then Pippen is a proxy for the Jordan Lebron debate.

I'd love to talk about Pippen in a reasonable way. He's my fav Bull from any era and unlike Jordan a cool guy from a miserable background( before the docu didn't know how miserable). I kind of can relate to him, but this board doesn't do him justice either way.

Wade was attacked on the regular during Lebron's Miami stay and even after. Pauk iirc created a thread that blamed Wade for losing in '11, because he intimitated Lebron or something like that. There are plenty of examples until this day. Too bad ISH has no search option.

You don't argue as simplicistic as most stans, but you only accept arguments from one side of the spectrum. That is how usually stans behave. You automatically side with the Lebroncrowd, because you don't like how Jordan stans argue. Well it's the same for Lebron.


Great post. Scottie's numbers wouldn't change the way others would. Assists would probably go up. But guys like Harden or Westbrook in OKC, Doncic currently (and yes, LeBron) they eat up a lot of the ball and they eat up a lot of the numbers. It not only skews the stats of teammates, but it skews their positive impact at times, because their teams become so dependent on them it's hard to just take "oh they struggle when he goes to the bench" as accurate. Doncic is only in his second season so maybe a little early to put him in that group, but that's what he's doing right, tho he's a better shooter than LeBron or Westbrook and doesn't dribble as much as Harden (who the hell dribbles as much as Harden?).

[j3lademaster]

Then how do you explain this?

All-NBA 1st teams: Pippen 3, Wade 2
Top 5 MVP finishes: 2 each (one 3rd and one 5th for both)
All-NBA teams: Wade 8, Pippen 7 Wade had to share his prime with a top 10 all timer at his position, and if I recall they only started the forward/guard/c selections recently. Before it was specifically pg, sg etc. if he were 10 years younger and had 5 1st team selections would we still think differently of him? Wade got hurt a lot so the greater career is arguable(I rank Pippen higher in that regard) but make no mistake, Wade when healthy is the better player.

[Roundball_Rock]

All-NBA has always been 2 guards, 2 forwards, and 1 center since they started doing it by positions in 1956. Here is the first all-NBA 1st team:

F: Bob Pettit
F: Paul Arizin
C: Neil Johnson
G: Bob Cousy
G: Bill Sharman

Here are all-NBA 1st team guards not named Kobe from 2005-2013:

2005: Nash, Iverson
2006: Nash
2007: Nash
2008: Paul
2009: Wade
2010: Wade
2011: Rose
2012: Rose
2013: Paul

So there was plenty of room for a guard not named Kobe to make all-NBA 1st team during Wade's prime. Nash did it 3x, Paul 2x, Rose 2x, Wade 2x, and Iverson 1x. Wade himself made it alongside Kobe twice.

[STATUTORY]

Wade played against better competition

[Lion's pride]

I guess more people value scoring prowess etc.. But I have so much love appreciation and respect for a player who can guard/switch and play multiple positions both offensively and defensively..

Outside of Bird Durant and Lebron, I would take Pippen over any SF in history.

[Roundball_Rock]

This thread quickly died as soon as it shifted to a discussion of Wade and the Heat versus being a "Here is why Pippen sucked" opportunity.

[Roundball_Rock]

Today MJ stans are arguing Miller>Pippen. This was never about Wade.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480160-David-Robinson-vs-Scottie-Pippen-90s/page3

[RogueBorg]

Agreed. It's also the same reason, I see Jordan, with all that pace and space and no rim protectors or physicality on the interior or perimeter ... plausibly putting up near 40 - 45 ppg.


https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/29150504

Yours is a very good estimate according to these guys

[RogueBorg]

Today MJ stans are arguing Miller>Pippen. This was never about Wade.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480160-David-Robinson-vs-Scottie-Pippen-90s/page3

That's a lie. Not one person said Miller>Pippen

[Roundball_Rock]

That's a lie. Not one person said Miller>Pippen

Is this your "defense"? That they are saying Pippen=Miller not Miller>Pippen? Both are laughable claims to anyone outside of the MJ circle jerk bubble.

Let's check the tape.


Reggie's offensive impact makes up for his defense and his offensive numbers improved in the POs, led the league in TS% multiple times as a shooter while Pippen was mediocre as a scorer in comparison.

You can downplay those guys all you want, but Pippen was not a level above them, he wasn't as elite as you Jordan haters make him out to be. A great all-around player sure, but never good enough to be a #1 option on a contender.

That sure reads as Miller>Pippen. Note that his argument is Miller>Pippen offensively (conceding Miller's inferiority defensively, as Miller was a 1 trick pony: shooting). This is despite Miller scoring only 1 PPG more than Pippen and not being anywhere near the playmaker Pippen was.

Wade, Miller, Payton, Hill, Iggy, Kemp, Irving, Kevin Johnson. The names literally don't matter. The agenda is all that does. People who thought Wade was getting most of his votes here on merit were being naive.

[RogueBorg]

That sure reads as Miller>Pippen. Note that his argument is Miller>Pippen offensively (conceding Miller's inferiority defensively, as Miller was a 1 trick pony: shooting). This is despite Miller scoring only 1 PPG more than Pippen and not being anywhere near the playmaker Pippen was.



First, you're reading what you want it to read, there's not one word that states Miller>Pippen. Second, you keep saying there's multiple fans saying Miller>Pippen yet you can't produce a single quote. You keep spouting the same garbage over and over. I guess you've said it so much now you really believe it. Seek counseling.

[Roundball_Rock]

First, you're reading what you want it to read

People can read it for themselves and reach their own conclusion. It is pretty obvious.


Second, you keep saying there's multiple fans saying Miller>Pippen yet you can't produce a single quote

Don't flatter yourself. I don't keep a file of every post made by MJ stans and the various accounts (alt and non-alt).

Miller comes up in the context of Jordan fans posting lists of 90's players who (in their MJ stan bubble)>Pippen. They list basically any player who was an all-NBA player during the era (Miller made a couple third teams so he makes the cut). :lol

People aren't dumb. They read the same posts I read. If you (claiming "3ball was right" on how Pippen was perceived in the 90's) and your buddies are going to take unhinged positions have the stones to own them.

[RogueBorg]

People can read it for themselves and reach their own conclusion. It is pretty obvious.



Don't flatter yourself. I don't keep a file of every post made by MJ stans and the various accounts (alt and non-alt).

Miller comes up in the context of Jordan fans posting lists of 90's players who (in their MJ stan bubble)>Pippen. They list basically any player who was an all-NBA player during the era (Miller made a couple third teams so he makes the cut). :lol

People aren't dumb. They read the same posts I read. If you (claiming "3ball was right" on how Pippen was perceived in the 90's) and your buddies are going to take unhinged positions have the stones to own them.

Give me a break. You, more than anyone else are the quickest to post quotes on what people have said. I know you want to believe people are saying Miller>Pippen, it's just not there.

Let it go.

[Roundball_Rock]

Again, people can read for themselves. Anyone who has been on ISH has seen posts like this:


David Robinson. That's a no brainer.

Jordan/Hakeem/DRob/Shaq/Barkley/Ewing/Malone/Drexler/GP

Are probably the only players I'd take over Pippen. Far as an ALL 90s decade team.

Nique was better than Pippen in the early 90s. Think you could argue some years for Stockton too. And Penny/Grant Hill in the late 90s.

Not to mention Kemp, Mitch Richmond, Mutumbo, Zo', Reggie Miller, et

For those of you counting, that list includes 20 players.

P.S. you exposed whose alt you are. :lol

[RRR3]

Again, people can read for themselves. Anyone who has been on ISH has seen posts like this:



For those of you counting, that list includes 20 players.

P.S. you exposed whose alt you are. :lol
Whose alt?

[ImKobe]

No one actually thinks Pippen is better. Stop arguing against yourself.

Should have just locked this thread after first reply, tbh.

[Roundball_Rock]

Looks like Kuniva or Hoops. There was a thread a while 2-3 weeks about KAJ/MJ where I kept quoting their earlier posts. :lol

Note this account supposedly has only existed for a few weeks but somehow has a bead on posting tendencies of the board.


Should have just locked this thread after first reply, tbh.

Miller>Pippen too, right? Payton>Pippen?

Remember, Payton's 16 PPG>Pippen's 19 PPG in the 90's. :rockon:

[bizil]

EASILY D Wade!!! GOAT and peak-prime wise! D Wade was the TOTAL PACKAGE at the SG spot. Freak athlete LEGIT great at scoring, passing, rebounding, and defending his position. At 6'4, was like a mix of David Thompson and Sidney Moncrief!!

ANYTIME Pip is compared to guys LEGIT great at scoring, passing, rebounding, and defending their position, he's gonna come up short on a peak-prime status. Or Magic and Bird who were alpha dog scorers AND epic triple double threats in one. Or even guys like a Dr. J and KD were/are great scorers AND very good all around players.

When it comes to these types of players, they are gonna be superior to Pippen. On GOAT list which factors rings and the entire resume, Pip can pass some of those guys by. For example, G Hill was better than Pip peak-prime wise, Because he was total package in a way Pip never was. BUT on a GOAT list, Pip smokes G Hill.

[tpols]

Reggie Miller was the leading scorer for a team in 12 playoff runs. And did it on magic/nash GOAT efficiency.

He averaged 24 ppg in the playoff in both 1990 and 2002.

Scottie Pippen has NOTHING on Reggie Miller, if that man played with Jordan it would be over so quick.

the bulls wouldnt have to play atg defense because they would be routing teams offensively.

[RRR3]

Pippen bad. Play too much like LeBron. LeBron bad.
See what I mean, Roundball?

[Roundball_Rock]

See what I mean, Roundball?

Yeah. :lol

[tpols]

yall getting sonned. we need a reggie appreciation thread pronto he was too gangster.

[RRR3]

yall getting sonned. we need a reggie appreciation thread pronto he was too gangster.
No one thinks Reggie wasn’t a great player. Besides maybe Kblaze who hates him for some reason :lol

[97 bulls]

Reggie Miller was the leading scorer for a team in 12 playoff runs. And did it on magic/nash GOAT efficiency.

He averaged 24 ppg in the playoff in both 1990 and 2002.

Scottie Pippen has NOTHING on Reggie Miller, if that man played with Jordan it would be over so quick.

the bulls wouldnt have to play atg defense because they would be routing teams offensively.

Lol. Unbelievable.

[ImKobe]

Reggie Miller was the leading scorer for a team in 12 playoff runs. And did it on magic/nash GOAT efficiency.

He averaged 24 ppg in the playoff in both 1990 and 2002.

Scottie Pippen has NOTHING on Reggie Miller, if that man played with Jordan it would be over so quick.

the bulls wouldnt have to play atg defense because they would be routing teams offensively.

Pretty much. Imagine if Jordan had a GOAT off-ball player like Reggie.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Looks like Kuniva or Hoops.

Trust me. I don't need an ALT to sink your agenda.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?479740-Would-Kareem-had-won-all-those-chips-in-place-of-MJ/page9

[Smoke117]

Reggie Miller was the leading scorer for a team in 12 playoff runs. And did it on magic/nash GOAT efficiency.

He averaged 24 ppg in the playoff in both 1990 and 2002.

Scottie Pippen has NOTHING on Reggie Miller, if that man played with Jordan it would be over so quick.

the bulls wouldnt have to play atg defense because they would be routing teams offensively.


:biggums: :facepalm

[RRR3]

:biggums: :facepalm
Pippen bad. Play like LeBron. LeBron bad. Reggie good. Play off ball. LeBron play on ball. On ball bad. LeBron bad.

[Roundball_Rock]

I know you want to believe people are saying Miller>Pippen, it's just not there.

This post aged poorly. :roll:

Will Rogue own it or hide?

[Roundball_Rock]

For younger posters, here is some reference material so you can see how ridiculous the agenda from MJ stans is (Miller was Klay without the defense):

Pippen vs. Miller (90's)

All-NBA teams: Pippen 7, Miller 3
All-NBA 1st teams: Pippen 3, Miller 0
All-NBA 1st/2nd teams: Pippen 5, Miller 0
All-star: Pippen 7, Miller 4
Top 5 MVP finishes: Pippen 2, Miller 0
Top 10 MVP finishes: Pippen 5, Miller 0
All-D teams: Pippen 9, Miller 0
All-D first teams: Pippen 7, Miller 0

Pippen 20/8/6 (1991-1998)
Miller 21/3/3 (1990-1998)

Pippen was the better playmaker, defender, rebounder, post player, better finisher, better transition player.
Miller was the better shooter.

On all-time lists the two are not even close. Nor were they in their era. No one thought Miller was equal or better to Pippen then.

(Both did little outside the 90's. Miller made 1 all-star team and Pippen 1 all-D team, both in the 00' season.)

[Round Mound]

For younger posters, here is some reference material so you can see how ridiculous the agenda from MJ stans is (Miller was Klay without the defense):

Pippen vs. Miller (90's)

All-NBA teams: Pippen 7, Miller 3
All-NBA 1st teams: Pippen 3, Miller 0
All-NBA 1st/2nd teams: Pippen 5, Miller 0
All-star: Pippen 7, Miller 4
Top 5 MVP finishes: Pippen 2, Miller 0
Top 10 MVP finishes: Pippen 5, Miller 0
All-D teams: Pippen 9, Miller 0
All-D first teams: Pippen 7, Miller 0

Pippen 20/8/6 (1991-1998)
Miller 21/3/3 (1990-1998)

Pippen was the better playmaker, defender, rebounder, post player, better finisher, better transition player.
Miller was the better shooter.

On all-time lists the two are not even close. Nor were they in their era. No one thought Miller was equal or better to Pippen then.

(Both did little outside the 90's. Miller made 1 all-star team and Pippen 1 all-D team, both in the 00' season.)

:applause:

[Overdrive]

This post aged poorly. :roll:

Will Rogue own it or hide?

Not defending that BS, but man Miller get's overrated these days, even by agendaless fans.

Miller was a third string star, who happened to have a few iconic playoff moments, but he was in a tier with Glen Rice and such, just was on a better team. Pippen was a first tier star during the 8 year run. How is it even a debate.

[Smook A.]

Whoever voted for Pippen here is a dunce. Pippen at his best was never at the same level as prime Wade

[Smook A.]

Is tpols really trying to argue Reggie over Pippen? :oldlol:

I don't know whether to laugh or to feel bad for this guy

[knicksman]

Not defending that BS, but man Miller get's overrated these days, even by agendaless fans.

Miller was a third string star, who happened to have a few iconic playoff moments, but he was in a tier with Glen Rice and such, just was on a better team. Pippen was a first tier star during the 8 year run. How is it even a debate.

coz they really are. Theyre 2nd tier stars. Pippen is just better suited as 2nd option while miller as 1st option. Pippen lucked out playing with the GOAT thats why hes overrated as fcuk but I dont think hell be as successful as miller as 1st option.

[Reggie43]

Talent wise we all know its not even close but the intangibles that Miller brought to the table would have made you think twice who was better to lead your team. Miller was an alpha whose strong personality, killer instinct and clutch play inspired teammates, going toe to toe with the beasts of the east and even having playoff wins against the Shaqs, Ewings, Iversons etc. His strong offball play and high basketball iq ensured that teammates got the ball and make plays for themselves thus developing team chemistry. Great examples of this is his stints with the 1994 and 1996 Us teams wherein despite being surrounded by the best players in the world coaches would always give him the most minutes because they know his value to the team and that he always plays the right way.

Pippen while being a great teammate is the opposite of this mentality, despite having that mvp type season as the main guy he always succumbed to the pressure that came with being a franchise player highlighted by sitting out on that kukoc game winner. Sabotaging their season in 97-98 by having his surgery late and him coming to houston and breaking team chemistry is another example. We also had that migraine game against the pistons etc.

[tpols]

Reggie Miller was the MJ for his team... and his team was the closest ever to beating the 2nd 3peat Bulls. They lost by a hair in 7.

Rik Smits was the 2nd best player for the pacers. They were woefully understaffed talent wise but went to war come playoffs.

People laughing saying pippen is way better at defense, reggie was way better at offense. His ORTG blows Pippen's away and he did it on higher volume and without MJ to distract defense.

And dont even get started on clutch and crunchtime play. Reggie had balls of steel while pippen was a known choker.

Pippen was great on defense in the 2nd 3peat, but TERRIBLE on offense. Reggie was shooting lights out. They wouldve won even easier with Miller in pippens place.

[RogueBorg]

This post aged poorly. :roll:

Will Rogue own it or hide?

TPOL's statement came AFTER my challenge towards you that you can't provide one post showing someone said Miller>Pippen.

You still can't.

Nice try.

[Reggie43]

https://youtu.be/mc6nj1p1s-g

[Roundball_Rock]

"Alpha" and "first option" are fluff words. A better way of looking at it is if the two players were on the same team. The Pacers ran more offense through Smits than Miller when both were on the court so what would happen if he played with a player that even (maybe?) MJ stans can agree Pippen was better than?


TPOL's statement came AFTER my challenge towards you that you can't provide one post showing someone said Miller>Pippen.

Jordan fans' belief Miller>Pippen gets exposed (which should be no surprise to someone like "Rogue" he is in all the Pippen threads) and this poster can't own up to it. :roll:

[juju151111]

https://youtu.be/mc6nj1p1s-g

Lmfaooooooo

[juju151111]

"Alpha" and "first option" are fluff words. A better way of looking at it is if the two players were on the same team. The Pacers ran more offense through Smits than Miller when both were on the court so what would happen if he played with a player that even (maybe?) MJ stans can agree Pippen was better than?



Jordan fans' belief Miller>Pippen gets exposed (which should be no surprise to someone like "Rogue" he is in all the Pippen threads) and this poster can't own up to it. :roll:

no its fluff words because you wantbto put Pippen up. Its not fluff words. Kawhi champions in 2019 is better for his status than his Chip in 2014. Your dumb has hell

[Roundball_Rock]

You are comparing Kawhi being a 1st option to Reggie Miller? :oldlol: That is a great example--to undercut your point. Not all "1st options" are the same and everybody here (except for MJ stans) knows Miller would have been the 3rd option on the Bulls or Warriors.

[Turbo Slayer]

Reggie Miller was the MJ for his team... and his team was the closest ever to beating the 2nd 3peat Bulls. They lost by a hair in 7.

Rik Smits was the 2nd best player for the pacers. They were woefully understaffed talent wise but went to war come playoffs.

People laughing saying pippen is way better at defense, reggie was way better at offense. His ORTG blows Pippen's away and he did it on higher volume and without MJ to distract defense.

And dont even get started on clutch and crunchtime play. Reggie had balls of steel while pippen was a known choker.

Pippen was great on defense in the 2nd 3peat, but TERRIBLE on offense. Reggie was shooting lights out. They wouldve won even easier with Miller in pippens place. ttrolls

[Reggie43]

"Alpha" and "first option" are fluff words. A better way of looking at it is if the two players were on the same team. The Pacers ran more offense through Smits than Miller when both were on the court so what would happen if he played with a player that even (maybe?) MJ stans can agree Pippen was better than?

How about the time when Indiana reached the Finals with Smits on his last legs and barely playing 20mins a night because of foot problems? Whats the excuse then?

Miller allowing Smits to be first option on his best years is a testament to how unselfish he was and those people who try to make it as a negative really dont follow the Pacers or understand team basketball.

Miller on his best year attempted 15.7 shots per game to get his 24points, is Chuck Person more important to the offense because he lead them with 16.1?

[tpols]

https://youtu.be/mc6nj1p1s-g

reggie made pippen choke the FT and kick the ball into the crowd.

:roll: :roll:

you cant make this up.

[juju151111]

You are comparing Kawhi being a 1st option to Reggie Miller? :oldlol: That is a great example--to undercut your point. Not all "1st options" are the same and everybody here (except for MJ stans) knows Miller would have been the 3rd option on the Bulls or Warriors.

No im not comparing anything. I didn't even say anything about Reggie miller idiot. I was addressing you saying 1 option is a fluff word.

[juju151111]

reggie made pippen choke the FT and kick the ball into the crowd.

:roll: :roll:

you cant make this up.

95% sure Scottie would of missed the shot in 94. He not clutch its just a fact. He not a good shooter

[Roundball_Rock]

It is all opinion. I have to give credit for you guys being honest about thinking Miller>Pippen or Pippen=Iggy, etc., unlike "RogueBorg" pretending no MJ stans would hold such a crazy opinions.

As I said several times in this thread, most of the votes for Wade have nothing to do with Wade. If you put another name--like Miller--most of those "Wade votes" would become "Miller votes." We saw the same thing in the Kyrie vs. Pippen thread.

[BigShotBob]

https://youtu.be/mc6nj1p1s-g

"Pippen better" :roll::roll::roll:

[juju151111]

It is all opinion. I have to give credit for you guys being honest about thinking Miller>Pippen or Pippen=Iggy, etc., unlike "RogueBorg" pretending no MJ stans would hold such a crazy opinions.

As I said several times in this thread, most of the votes for Wade have nothing to do with Wade. If you put another name--like Miller--most of those "Wade votes" would become "Miller votes." We saw the same thing in the Kyrie vs. Pippen thread.

Or maybe people rhink Wade's better. Especially that he led jis team to a championship.

[FKAri]

prime Pip > 2012-2014 Wade

[Roundball_Rock]

Or maybe people rhink Wade's better. Especially that he led jis team to a championship.

There is always a thinly veiled rationale (like suddenly winning matters to you--what did Miller win?) but you all expose yourself when you are saying Miller>Pippen, Payton>Pippen, Kyrie>Pippen, Iggy=Pippen, etc.

[97 bulls]

There is always a thinly veiled rationale (like suddenly winning matters to you--what did Miller win?) but you all expose yourself when you are saying Miller>Pippen, Payton>Pippen, Kyrie>Pippen, Iggy=Pippen, etc.

It's like Pippens held to a totally different standard here. And these dudes is too emotional to even see what they're doing.

I honestly dont think these dudes can give Pippen any sort of credit without qualifying the credit with some backhanded insult. Almost like a hatred or a jealous person.

[juju151111]

There is always a thinly veiled rationale (like suddenly winning matters to you--what did Miller win?) but you all expose yourself when you are saying Miller>Pippen, Payton>Pippen, Kyrie>Pippen, Iggy=Pippen, etc.

quote me saying Miller is above Pippen. I think i seen like 2 people who said that. Who are all these people you keep speaking of. Tell me the names

[Roundball_Rock]

It's like Pippens held to a totally different standard here. And these dudes is too emotional to even see what they're doing.

I honestly dont think these dudes can give Pippen any sort of credit without qualifying the credit with some backhanded insult. Almost like a hatred or a jealous person.

:applause:

All because they, sadly, are insecure about MJ and think bringing Pippen down somehow helps MJ.

[LukeWalton]

stats
https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/scottie_pippen_vs_dwyane_wade.htm

want more defense, go for Pip
want more points go for Wade

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Jordan made Scottie Simpen

[Roundball_Rock]

It's like Pippens held to a totally different standard here. And these dudes is too emotional to even see what they're doing.

I honestly dont think these dudes can give Pippen any sort of credit without qualifying the credit with some backhanded insult. Almost like a hatred or a jealous person.

In another thread real basketball fans are having a basketball discussion while MJ stans are flocking to defend Reggie Miller (while adding 0 to the basketball discussion). They will gas every 90's star--except one...:lol

[RogueBorg]

In another thread real basketball fans are having a basketball discussion while MJ stans are flocking to defend Reggie Miller (while adding 0 to the basketball discussion). They will gas every 90's star--except one...:lol

You were doing so well.....thought you might have evicted him finally :roll:

[3ball]

.
1) Wade in 13' and 14' Regular Season = 21/5/5 and 21 PER = prime Pippen stats


2) 14' Wade produced more while trying to 3-peat than 93' Pippen:



Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


3) Championship



Finals Stats

Wade 11-14....... 21.1 ppg.. 5.2 rpg.. 4.5 apg.. 47.9%
Pippen Career... 19.0 ppg.. 8.3 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 42.5%



4) Wade's top accomplishment as 1st and 2nd option > Pippen's

[DoctorP]

Wade

[3ball]

Peak : Wade

Overall: Pippen

So I assume you have Jimmy Butler over Wade due to superior defense

What a joke.. Pippen simply won the "play with MJ lottery"... Tons of 16 ppg defenders would've 3-peated with mj, or better offensive players like 89-91 KJ, who made 2 WCF and upset Magic's 1 seeded Lakers - he easily 3-peats with mj from 89-91'

Wade destroys Pippen, just like Wade destroys Butler.. wade was also all-defense several years so his deficit defensively is smaller than Pippen's deficit offensively

[DoctorP]

So I assume you have Jimmy Butler over Wade due to superior defense

What a joke.. Pippen simply won the "play with MJ lottery"... Tons of 16 ppg defenders would've 3-peated with mj, or better offensive players like 89-91 KJ, who made 2 WCF and upset Magic's 1 seeded Lakers - he easily 3-peats with mj from 89-91'

Wade destroys Pippen, just like Wade destroys Butler

geez, i changed my mind like a minute after posting and you already replied?

slow the f uck down

[Roundball_Rock]

Is there any star MJ stans think Pippen was better than? :lol

For reference, MJ himself had Pippen #1 for 95' and top 5 as late as 98'.

[Soundwave]

Pippen can be a very good player.

Lots of players could win multiple titles with Michael Jordan as the 2nd options (ie: Drexler, Dominque are guys that get little respect or attention these days relative to Pippen, how many titles do they win with Jordan? Where do they rank on ESPN's top 100 list then? Probably way higher).


Both of these things can be true, one doesn't invalidate the other.

[Roundball_Rock]

...

The issue is this crusade from MJ stans to diminish Pippen to comical levels. Bruce Blitz melted down and did a video rant saying Pippen was overrated in 2009--and even he said Pippen was top 40 all-time in that rant. I doubt any MJ stan in 2020 on ISH would put him anywhere close to that high (while the rest of the world has settled on him being top 20-30). That is what people are noticing. Any all-NBA player, past or present, gets mentioned and MJ stans are out in force saying that guy>Pippen. Even Iggy=Pippen according to several of the people in this thread elsewhere.

It will only get worse as MJ stans continue to crack under the LeBron threat. It is annoying but also highly amusing.

[Soundwave]

The issue is this crusade from MJ stans to diminish Pippen to comical levels. Bruce Blitz melted down and did a video rant saying Pippen was overrated in 2009--and even he said Pippen was top 40 all-time in that rant. I doubt any MJ stan in 2020 on ISH would put him anywhere close to that high (while the rest of the world has settled on him being top 20-30). That is what people are noticing. Any all-NBA player, past or present, gets mentioned and MJ stans are out in force saying that guy>Pippen. Even Iggy=Pippen according to several of the people in this thread elsewhere.

It will only get worse as MJ stans continue to crack under the LeBron threat. It is annoying but also highly amusing.

LeBron is turning 36, enjoy what he has left because it's not going to last much longer.

Pippen is basically fairly rated. He gets some shade from being in Jordan's shadow, but he more than equally has a higher stature because of it by the same token.

Players like Dominique and Drexler are underrated, not Pippen, Pippen enjoys far more attention and gets ranked far higher than either of those guys even though they would've won a shit-ton of titles if given Jordan to play with. Drexler led his team to two actual NBA Finals as the no.1 option, the only time he gets discussed today is because Jordan shat on his head in game 1 of the NBA Finals.

Penny Hardaway won 55 games without Shaq in 81 games between 95-96 and 96-97 .... anyone think that's an amazing accomplishment today? **** no.

These guys have a case to cry about being underrated.

[Roundball_Rock]

Lots of players could win multiple titles with Michael Jordan as the 2nd options (ie: Drexler, Dominque are guys that get little respect or attention these days relative to Pippen, how many titles do they win with Jordan? Where do they rank on ESPN's top 100 list then? Probably way higher).

That cuts both ways--which we never hear MJ stans mention. How many does Pippen win with Drexler instead of MJ? It isn't a one way street.


Players like Dominique and Drexler are underrated, not Pippen

Were Drexler and Wilkins better than Pippen?

Pippen is properly rated--there is just a growing disconnect between MJ stans and the rest of the world on him. Pippen is no worse than top 30 by consensus outside of rattled insecure MJ stans.


Penny Hardaway won 55 games without Shaq in 81 games between 95-96 and 96-97 .... anyone think that's an amazing accomplishment today?

This post is revealing. Pippen isn't considered top 20-30 all-time because of one season.

No, because Orlando fell apart without Shaq in 97'. It was one thing to hold down the fort for 30 or so games but another to have to do it for 82. The same scenario happened with the Bulls and Rose in 12' versus 13' when they had to do it for a full season.

Penny and Hill get the JFK benefit: the glow from the tragedy, the benefit of all the "what ifs" (e.g., no one talks about JFK failing to get civil rights passed).

No one ever talks about how prime Hill never got out the first round. If any superstar did that today they would never live that down (see McGrady, Tracy). Even CP had the whole "second round" thing until he got to the WCF in Houston (as a second option of course). The way people talk about Hill today he was LeBron when he was Pippen minus the defense.

[PoutinPippin]

Jordan made Scottie Simpen

He molded and shaped him into what he became ... easily. Scottie Simpin was a Jordan project. He revealed himself to be a pouting beta BITCH without MJ. Scottie Quittin.

[Soundwave]

That cuts both ways--which we never hear MJ stans mention. How many does Pippen win with Drexler instead of MJ? It isn't a one way street.



Were Drexler and Wilkins better than Pippen?



This post is revealing. Pippen isn't considered top 20-30 all-time because of one season.

No, because Orlando fell apart without Shaq in 97'. It was one thing to hold down the fort for 30 or so games but another to have to do it for 82.

Penny and Hill get the JFK benefit: the glow from the tragedy, the benefit of all the "what ifs" . No one ever talks about how prime Hill never got out the first round. If any superstar did that today they would never live that day (see McGrady, Tracy). Even CP had the whole "second round" thing until he got to the WCF in Houston (as a second option of course).

Drexler doesn't win 6 if you remove Porter or someone else in place of Pippen.

Drexler does win maybe as many 8 or 9 with Jordan.

Dominique Wilkins would probably be a top 10 player if he got a chance to play with Jordan and we'd be listening to 203837348837438 posts from you on how Dominque is underrated because Jordan kicks kittens or some other great insight.

[3ball]

3ball, as the intellectual leader of MJ stans what 90's stars do you think Pippen actually was better than? I see MJ stans say he sucks compared to every 90's all-NBA player whose name comes up here, but they never show where the line would be. Where do you draw it?

a great offensive player's advantage over a replacement offensive player is massive... It's much bigger than a great defender's advantage over a replacement defender... you guys act like Pippen is personally preventing a score on most possessions - he isn't - he's barely reducing the frequency of the opponent's scoring... i.e. you show highlights of Pippen playing the entire floor but a replacement defender would stand in similar spots, albiet less effectively... Otoh, a replacement level offensive player (Andre Roberson) doesn't get any of the shot attempts that Dirk or Harden get and therefore has a much bigger deficit than a replacement defender (who mimics the better defender, aka stands in similar spots)

Pippen's defense is simply a smaller advantage to have than an offensive advantage, and a more replaceable one because defense is cheaper... A team can surround a good offensive player with cheap defenders and still have a #1 defense (18' Celts with kyrie), whereas a weaker offensive player like Pippen must be surrounded by more expensive scorers/shooters (MJ, Kerr, etc)

The above reasons are intuitive and they're why people normally only consider offense when comparing the "help" of 2 stars.. So people didn't rate Pippen that highly until recently when lebron media promoted him to diminish MJ..

Since offense is normally the prime consideration, people rate players accordingly - aka people realized that the dominant Kevin Johnson was making the WCF every year and upsetting Magic's Lakers in 1990, so he would easily 3-peat with MJ from 89-91' (when Pippen was still young)... Ditto for guys like Worthy, Dominique, or Coleman, who were immediate impact players and would've 3-peated with MJ from 88-90' when Pippen was young.. Pippen simply won the "play with MJ" lottery, so the winning spotlight inflates his inferior production

Finally, iso scoring is important because it's usually needed to be a good clutch-time player... but Pippen's iso and shooting is weak so he ranked near-last in clutch-time points for 97' and 98' Playoffs.. Accordingly, great iso guys like Glenn Robinson or Mashburn were frequently considered better then him.. it didn't help that they frequently demolished him heads-up

[Soundwave]

That cuts both ways--which we never hear MJ stans mention. How many does Pippen win with Drexler instead of MJ? It isn't a one way street.



Were Drexler and Wilkins better than Pippen?

Pippen is properly rated--there is just a growing disconnect between MJ stans and the rest of the world on him. Pippen is no worse than top 30 by consensus outside of rattled insecure MJ stans.



This post is revealing. Pippen isn't considered top 20-30 all-time because of one season.

No, because Orlando fell apart without Shaq in 97'. It was one thing to hold down the fort for 30 or so games but another to have to do it for 82. The same scenario happened with the Bulls and Rose in 12' versus 13' when they had to do it for a full season.

Penny and Hill get the JFK benefit: the glow from the tragedy, the benefit of all the "what ifs" (e.g., no one talks about JFK failing to get civil rights passed).

No one ever talks about how prime Hill never got out the first round. If any superstar did that today they would never live that down (see McGrady, Tracy). Even CP had the whole "second round" thing until he got to the WCF in Houston (as a second option of course). The way people talk about Hill today he was LeBron when he was Pippen minus the defense.

Penny Hardaway did win 55 games without Shaq before he destroyed his knee. I thought winning 55 games was supposed to be some massive accomplishment?

[Roundball_Rock]

3ball, answer the question. At what point do you get to a star who Pippen actually was better than? I think you have enough honesty to answer.

Notice Soundwave basically says Drexler and Wilkins>Pippen but won't explicitly say so. Other than MJ stans, no one shares that view. Even MJ stans a decade ago would easily have Pippen ahead of Wilkins, for example.

What he didn't mention is Wilkins was a one dimensional player: a volume scorer who did nothing else (somehow there would be 30 PPG available for him alongside MJ :oldlol: ).


Drexler doesn't win 6 if you remove Porter or someone else in place of Pippen.

How many does he win? You won't answer because you don't want to admit Pippen/Drexler win multiple rings. That is certainly what Drexler thinks.


Penny Hardaway did win 55 games without Shaq before he destroyed his knee. I thought winning 55 games was supposed to be some massive accomplishment?


It is as your case proves: Penny in the same situation won 45 and he got Rony Seiklay to replace Shaq, not Pete Myers.:oldlol:

Orlando went 45-37 and lost in the first round the next year. I am not sure where this "55 wins" is coming from.

[999Guy]

https://youtu.be/mc6nj1p1s-g

:roll: Reggie was the ****ing man. Mind games and all the other stuff is usually nonsense but that’s fantastic. Especially considering Reggie was a killer himself.

[Soundwave]

3ball, answer the question. At what point do you get to a star who Pippen actually was better than? I think you have enough honesty to answer.

Notice Soundwave basically says Drexler and Wilkins>Pippen but won't explicitly say so. Other than MJ stans, no one shares that view. Even MJ stans a decade ago would easily have Pippen ahead of Wilkins, for example.

What he didn't mention is Wilkins was a one dimensional player: a volume scorer who did nothing else (somehow there would be 30 PPG available for him alongside MJ :oldlol: ).



How many does he win? You won't answer because you don't want to admit Pippen/Drexler win multiple rings. That is certainly what Drexler thinks.



It is as your case proves: Penny in the same situation won 45 and he got Rony Seiklay to replace Shaq, not Pete Myers.:oldlol:

Orlando went 45-37 and lost in the first round the next year. I am not sure where this "55 wins" is coming from.

Your whole premise is bull sh*t.

The fact of the matter is there are about 11-12 "generational" NBA talents. It's generally agreed by those without a stick up their ass that its some version of Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, LeBron, Shaq, Bird, Magic, Kobe, Duncan, etc.

These players are so good that they were always going to win multiple titles unless you basically forced them to play with nothing but garbage forever, which wouldn't happen because they'd all eventually demand a trade out.

The secondary option can be numerous players for all of these guys. There is no one magic single player that they had to have and only then could they win. That's a bull sh*t narrative and everyone actually knows that.

It was dumb enough quite frankly when people used to pile on Kobe saying he'd never win without Shaq ... anyone with any actual objective thought could see he would win if they got him a couple of pretty good players to hoop with and he did.

That's all basketball is. If anything it's painfully f**king predictable relative to other sports.

The minimum title count you get with a generational player is 3 titles, and it can go up from there based on other factors.

This is only an issue with Jordan because some people are seethingly jealous that he gets too much attention, like the fat girl who's angry at the good looking sister who gets all the attention at school. That's really what's going on here, nothing more than that.

[Roundball_Rock]

A bunch of hogwash, including no acknowledgement of the fact that Orlando was 45-37 with Seiklay replacing Shaq. There was a lengthy thread where MJ stans went down the all-time list to find an example "comparable" to the 94' Bulls. Eventually they got to KD on the list and pointed out OKC won 47 and lost in the first round. That is the shining example of a team "doing what the Bulls did"--a top 15-20 player's impact compared to the "GOAT" and a first round loss. :lol

Drexler made two finals with Terry Porter as his second option. :roll: He wins rings with Pippen, especially since in this scenario Pippen is not on the Bulls and the Blazers are facing the Knicks or Cavs instead. If you put a top 20-30 all-time player with a top 30-40 all-time player with both in their primes, especially in the 90's, they win rings.


which wouldn't happen because they'd all eventually demand a trade out.

This guy thinks you can trade a prime LeBron or prime Kobe or prime Kareem and not have the team they are going to be absolutely gutted. That is why Kobe didn't go to the Bulls: the situation he would be going to would have been comparable or worse than what he already had in LA. That is what Kareem had when he got to LA but he wanted the trade for non-basketball reasons.

[3ball]

3ball, answer the question. At what point do you get to a star who Pippen actually was better than? I think you have enough honesty to answer.

Notice Soundwave basically says Drexler and Wilkins>Pippen but won't explicitly say so. Other than MJ stans, no one shares that view. Even MJ stans a decade ago would easily have Pippen ahead of Wilkins, for example.

What he didn't mention is Wilkins was a one dimensional player: a volume scorer who did nothing else (somehow there would be 30 PPG available for him alongside MJ :oldlol: ).



How many does he win? You won't answer because you don't want to admit Pippen/Drexler win multiple rings. That is certainly what Drexler thinks.



It is as your case proves: Penny in the same situation won 45 and he got Rony Seiklay to replace Shaq, not Pete Myers.:oldlol:

Orlando went 45-37 and lost in the first round the next year. I am not sure where this "55 wins" is coming from.

Pippen was averaging 18-19 on horrible shooting, while guys like Glenn Robinson, Jim Jackson and Mashburn were getting 25 with sweet shooting touch... That's why people often preferred others over Pippen - Pippen's stats were often underwhelming/inferior... and others frequently abused him heads-up..

So who was Pippen definitively better than?.... he was better than other similar styles, aka lukewarm-scoring, "do-it-all" players like Steve Smith or peak Anthony Mason (97'), Detlef Schrempf or Sprewell.. but Detlef would destroy Pippen in today's era because Detlef would be a 40% three-point shooter at 8+ attempts... Pip was also better than Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas or Reggie Lewis but only because their career were cut short

Who was Pippen not better than? Peak Vin Baker... Coleman... Grant Hill.. Penny... Kemp... Payton... many more... 92-93' Dominique destroys him severely in RS and PO... old Stockton played him to a draw in 97' Finals... Tim Hardaway... Again, people thought scorers like Glenn Robinson or Mashburn were better many nights because they averaged more PPG and shot better - they would go off for 40-50 and take over games in ways that Pippen never could... Then there's the titans like hakeem, shaq, robinson, Barkley, Malone, Ewing, and Drexler... This all off the top of my head.. there's plenty more... Oh shit KJ

[Soundwave]

A bunch of hogwash, including no acknowledgement of the fact that Orlando was 45-37 with Seiklay replacing Shaq. There was a lengthy thread where MJ stans went down the all-time list to find an example "comparable" to the 94' Bulls. Eventually they got to KD on the list and pointed out OKC won 47 and lost in the first round. That is the shining example of a team "doing what the Bulls did"--a top 15-20 player's impact compared to the "GOAT" and a first round loss. :lol

Drexler made two finals with Terry Porter as his second option. :roll: He wins rings with Pippen, especially since in this scenario Pippen is not on the Bulls and the Blazers are facing the Knicks or Cavs instead. If you put a top 20-30 all-time player with a top 30-40 all-time player with both in their primes, especially in the 90's, they win rings.



This guy thinks you can trade a prime LeBron or prime Kobe or prime Kareem and not have the team they are going to be absolutely gutted. That is why Kobe didn't go to the Bulls: the situation he would be going to would have been comparable or worse than what he already had in LA. That is what Kareem had when he got to LA but he wanted the trade for non-basketball reasons.

The Magic had a better record than 45 wins with Penny actually playing in 96-97 ... Penny missed 20+ games that year, they had a bunch of injuries to other players as well.

There's a real easy way to show how the Magic would have performed without Shaq ... Shaq missed the first 22 games in 95-96, Penny missed 21 or something in 96-97 ... that basically gives you a full regular season worth of games to see how the Magic did with Penny as the no.1 option.

They won 55/81 games without Shaq but with Penny as the lead player before he blew out his knee. Anyone want to give him a cookie?

I didn't say Drexler wouldn't win with Pippen, I said it sure as f**k wouldn't be 6, and it would be more like 7 or 8+ with Jordan.

Pistons, Lakers, and Celtics are very fortuante the Blazers were dumb enough to take Sam Bowie.

[Roundball_Rock]

The Magic had a better record than 45 wins with Penny actually playing in 96-97 ...

Yeah, and so did the Bulls. With Pippen and Grant healthy the Bulls were a 63 win pace team (which would be the best record in the NBA). I see you in every Pippen thread yet mysteriously have never heard you talk about injuries and win pace in your frequent posts about the 94' team. #Badfaith :oldlol:


There's a real easy way to show how the Magic would have performed without Shaq ... Shaq missed the first 22 games in 95-96

No there isn't.

2012 Bulls without Rose: 18-9 (55 win pace, 67 win pace with him)
2013 Bulls without Rose: 45-37

You can't compare players holding the fort down for 20-30 games where everyone can just play harder temporarily (as the MJ doc even showed, especially with Rodman) to 82 games without a player knowing he is not going to be there at all.

[aceman]

Pippen was averaging 18-19 on horrible shooting, while guys like Glenn Robinson, Jim Jackson and Mashburn were getting 25 with sweet shooting touch... That's why people often preferred others over Pippen - Pippen's stats were often underwhelming/inferior... and others frequently abused him heads-up..

So who was Pippen definitively better than?.... he was better than other similar styles, aka lukewarm-scoring, "do-it-all" players like Steve Smith or peak Anthony Mason (97'), Detlef Schrempf or Sprewell.. but Detlef would destroy Pippen in today's era because Detlef would be a 40% three-point shooter at 8+ attempts... Pip was also better than Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas or Reggie Lewis but only because their career were cut short

Who was Pippen not better than? Peak Vin Baker... Coleman... Grant Hill.. Penny... Kemp... Payton... many more... 92-93' Dominique destroys him severely in RS and PO... old Stockton played him to a draw in 97' Finals... Tim Hardaway... Again, people thought scorers like Glenn Robinson or Mashburn were better many nights because they averaged more PPG and shot better - they would go off for 40-50 and take over games in ways that Pippen never could... Then there's the titans like hakeem, shaq, robinson, Barkley, Malone, Ewing, and Drexler... This all off the top of my head.. there's plenty more... Oh shit KJ

Hey Skip Bayless, there's more to game than scoring. Look beyond ppg value.

[knicksman]

Penny Hardaway did win 55 games without Shaq before he destroyed his knee. I thought winning 55 games was supposed to be some massive accomplishment?

he discredits jordan for pippen winning 55 then miller lead his team to 58 wins and better srs but cant accept that miller is at least equal to pippen. The guy is a joke.

[Roundball_Rock]

similar styles, aka lukewarm-scoring, "do-it-all" players like Steve Smith or peak Anthony Mason (97'), Detlef Schrempf or Sprewell.. but Detlef would destroy Pippen in today's era because Detlef would be a 40% three-point shooter at 8+ attempts... Pip was also better than Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas or Reggie Lewis but only because their career were cut short

So basically you are saying Pippen was equal to guys who made 0-3 all-star teams (Mason, Smith, Elliot, Dumas. Schrempf made 3).

This is crazy but at least you are being honest about it, unlike the other MJ stans who will imply that by saying Pippen was clearly worse than every perennial all-star whose name comes up but dance around explicitly saying it because they know non-MJ stans will scoff at them.

[3ball]

So basically you are saying Pippen was equal to guys who made 0-3 all-star teams (Mason, Smith, Elliot, Dumas. Schrempf made 3).

This is crazy but at least you are being honest about it, unlike the other MJ stans who will imply that by saying Pippen was clearly worse than every perennial all-star whose name comes up but dance around explicitly saying it because they know non-MJ stans will scoff at them.

It's funny because all those guys I posted - its not like you can make a quick counter because Pippen's stats are bad.. so you have no counter or actual evidence except political media-speak quotes where teammates aren't going to trash each other, and cherry-picked defensive highlights that replacement players can mimic

[Roundball_Rock]

Take some credit. I am one of the people on the other side but I am giving you credit for being honest enough to admit your view. :cheers: All the other MJ stans will imply the same as you but lack the honesty to admit and own their personal views.

[3ball]

So basically you are saying Pippen was equal to guys who made 0-3 all-star teams (Mason, Smith, Elliot, Dumas. Schrempf made 3).



I said he was a little better than those guys but you changed what I said because you have low character like Pippen

I said he was inferior to the NEXT tier, aka peak Vin Baker... Coleman... Grant Hill.. Penny... Kemp... Payton... many more... 92-93' Dominique destroys him severely in RS and PO... old Stockton played him to a draw in 97' Finals... Tim Hardaway... Then there's the titans like hakeem, shaq, robinson, Barkley, Malone, Ewing, and Drexler... This all off the top of my head.. there's plenty more... Oh shit KJ

And again, people thought scorers like Glenn Robinson or Mashburn were better on many nights because they averaged more PPG and were sweet shooters/scorers.. they would go off for 40-50 and take over games in ways that Pippen never could...

[Roundball_Rock]

Low character? I have never cheated on my wife, unlike your hero...

[Round Mound]

Pippen wasn't the best scorer or shooter but he was capable of scoring 22 PPG on 49% FG not being a shooter. That´s pretty good. Wade was better offenisvely but also wasn't a great shooter. Wade is a better scorer and 1 on 1 slashing player but Pippen was a better defender. THEE BEST DEFENDER at his position, better plamaker and passer, better on the open floor to finish or dish off, better coast to coast player and better rebounder. So it all depends on what your team needs.

[DoctorP]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOJEoPA88NY

[goozeman]

Pippen wasn't the best scorer or shooter but he was capable of scoring 22 PPG on 49% FG not being a shooter. That´s pretty good. Wade was better offenisvely but also wasn't a great shooter. Wade is a better scorer and 1 on 1 slashing player but Pippen was a better defender. THEE BEST DEFENDER at his position, better plamaker and passer, better on the open floor to finish or dish off, better coast to coast player and better rebounder. So it all depends on what your team needs.

The problem with that analysis is that assumes various skills come with the same equity. The best analogy I can make for Pippen is that if he were a baseball player, he would be a four tool player that can't hit for average. Pippen's play making is fairly pedestrian considering how turnover prone he was. He had the fourth most turnovers in the 90's, and he and Mitch Richmond are the only two in the top 20 who were not point guards or bigs. Pippen was a good rebounder, but he was not real difference maker on the boards, being only a slightly better on the offensive boards than Jordan. Some of that was because during his peak he played with two incredible rebounders in Grant and Rodman, but it is probably more likely that the Bulls as organization recognized that Pippen at the SF wasn't a difference maker there and made it a point to build there C/PF position abound strong rebounding, sacrificing some scoring knowing they had Jordan. Compare Pippen to guys like A.C. Green and Shawn Marion. They were both way superior rebounders than Pippen, especially on the offensive glass, but possessed similar physical skills.

And when I say Pip couldn't bat for average, it is because he was just not very effective in the half court. He lacked creativity, iso ball skills, and the ability to put pressure on the defense by getting to the line consistently. Plus, Pippen was really for much his career a poor free throw shooter, shooting well below 70 percent for many seasons. Not all abilities exist on the same tier, and being able to attack a defense at all levels of play is by far the most important for an NBA player. It's what separates the merely good from the superstars. Pippen was a very good, all around player. If you actually look at his contributions across the board he grades out similar to guys like Shawn Marion and Manu Ginobli with the caveat that Pippen was a guy who could guard multiple positions besides center probably as well as almost anybody ever. No shame in that, but he was never a guy that could take over a game like Wade. If you are a GM building a team, this is a no brainer. You take Wade 100 percent.

[aj1987]

Pippen wasn't the best scorer or shooter but he was capable of scoring 22 PPG on 49% FG not being a shooter. That´s pretty good. Wade was better offenisvely but also wasn't a great shooter. Wade is a better scorer and 1 on 1 slashing player but Pippen was a better defender. THEE BEST DEFENDER at his position, better plamaker and passer, better on the open floor to finish or dish off, better coast to coast player and better rebounder. So it all depends on what your team needs.

Are you high? Wade was significantly better than Pippen at all those.


Wade as a player during his prime/peak was so much better than Pippen, it's not even worthy of a comparison. Wade was giving you 30 points a night with 8 assists a game. Oh, and this was with DPOY level defense. That was Wade during his peak. Pippen was lucky to give that level of production even in a 10 game stretch, let alone doing it for an entire season.

Oh, and the dude who said the Heat kept winning with Shaq in and Wade out, what happened in 2005 during the PO's? Miami scored 66 in G6. With Wade being hobbled, lost G7 as well.

If Wade was relatively more healthy during his career, he would've ended as a top 12-14 GOAT easily.

[Roundball_Rock]

If you actually look at his contributions across the board he grades out similar to guys like Shawn Marion and Manu Ginobli

I don't see Marion or Manu on here...

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Jordan-v-GOAT-on-off-results-91-93-50g.png

The scoring rap is BS. Pippen was 8th in scoring as a #1 option in a much tougher defensive era but the same people (not you in particular) who criticize him for scoring will pop up in other threads praising other players who scored the same or slightly more or slightly less. In one post days ago a guy praised Miller (21 PPG for his prime) and then dissed Pippen as a "mediocre scorer" (20 PPG in his prime)>

Offense is more than scoring. Without Pippen at the controls the Bulls went from #1 to #18 in scoring when he was out in 98'. This was a bigger drop-off than when Jordan retired. Why don't we ever hear of this part of the equation? If Pippen is setting up Kerr it counts as much as him scoring for himself for the team.


Pippen was a good rebounder, but he was not real difference maker on the boards,

He was top 20 as SF in rebounding before Rodman got there. Only Hill rivaled him as a rebounder among SF's of that era.

[Overdrive]

Take some credit. I am one of the people on the other side but I am giving you credit for being honest enough to admit your view. :cheers: All the other MJ stans will imply the same as you but lack the honesty to admit and own their personal views.

Wtf, man. You're crying about Jordan stans day in and day out, but you appluad the only one who actively hates on Pippen on this board.

[Roundball_Rock]

Wtf, man. You're crying about Jordan stans day in and day out, but you appluad the only one who actively hates on Pippen on this board.

:roll:

Yes, he is the only one. Stop posing as a neutral observer when you are going to make a ridiculous claim like that to spin reality for MJ stans, especially since you are in all these threads and see an army of MJ stans saying Pippen sucks.

3ball is a nut but he is an honest nut (at least about what he really thinks about Pippen), unlike others.

[Overdrive]

:roll:

Yes, he is the only one. Stop posing as a neutral observer when you are going to make a ridiculous claim like that to spin reality for MJ stans, especially since you are in all these threads and see an army of MJ stans saying Pippen sucks.

3ball is a nut but he is an honest nut (at least about what he really thinks about Pippen), unlike others.

I'd love to see some quotes that are really hateful or say Pippen sucks. Most stans say he's overrated, because he played on the Bulls. We'll never know, because we didn't see his prime without Jordan. We saw a small climpse.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yup, it is just a coincidence they all happen to be MJ stans, right?

He played better without MJ during that 1 3/4 time in his prime. :lol

[dbugz]

I hate Wade but he's better.

W/out him, LeQuit might not have a ring until now :roll:

[RogueBorg]

:

3ball is a nut but he is an honest nut (at least about what he really thinks about Pippen), unlike others.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/88/aa/5a/88aa5a9708fe10faa3529b8420fc07aa.png

[Overdrive]

Yup, it is just a coincidence they all happen to be MJ stans, right?

He played better without MJ during that 1 3/4 time in his prime. :lol

Umm, that's exactly what I posted?