Manu Ginobili was 10+ years ahead of his time

[Sulico]

I'm sure everyone here asking themselves, how did Manu Ginobili became most successful guard of mid to late 2000's and had best advanced stats of all guards in that period.

Well, first of all he was using moves like eurostep and stepback before league knew what those can do.

But the most important part, he was playing effective 3-and-layup ball in the middle 2000's before everyone in the league discovered that style more than a decade later.

Here is percentage of shots taken by distance in feet for best guards of 2005:

2004-05 RS Manu

0-3ft/.369
3-10ft/.165
10-16ft/.069
16-3pt/.065
3P/.331

2005 Playoffs Manu

0-3ft/.343
3-10ft/.178
10-16ft/.073
16-3pt/.070
3P/.336

As you can see here Manu rarely taken any other shots than 3pts and layups. Here is other important guards from that era.

Dwyane Wade

0-3ft/.441
3-10ft/.149
10-16ft/.135
16-3pt/.241
3P/.034

Kobe Bryant

0-3ft/.223
3-10ft/.090
10-16ft/.140
16-3pt/.321
3P/.227

Tracy Mcgrady

0-3ft/.225
3-10ft/.066
10-16ft/.081
16-3pt/.365
3P/.262

Allen Iverson

0-3ft/.313
3-10ft/.095
10-16ft/.154
16-3pt/.252
3P/.186

Vince Carter

0-3ft/.252
3-10ft/.171
10-16ft/.130
16-3pt/.243
3P/.203

As you can see, all the other guards of that period were taking lots of long 2s, the shot that is almost extinct in todays game. No wonder they couldn't achieve what Manu did.

[Axe]

I guess I ain't wrong if I'm going to say that he's miles better than stephen curry.

[GimmeThat]

so you're saying he believed it was a Forward heavy era and he never contested them

[Sulico]

so you're saying he believed it was a Forward heavy era and he never contested them

I'm saying he couldn't be better than black athletic dudes doing exactly what they did. And he was most competitive guy in the world. So he outsmarted them, invented elaborate ways to be better than everybody. Ways that 15 years later less smart guys now finally use.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Are you saying that he was better than all of them?

[GimmeThat]

I'm saying he couldn't be better than black athletic dudes doing exactly what they did. And he was most competitive guy in the world. So he outsmarted them, invented elaborate ways to be better than everybody. Ways that 15 years later less smart guys now finally use.

you think you have the brain of a survivor, only what you elaborated is that you worship those who survive because you contribute nothing and only know how to copy others.

you speak fluent coronavirus my friend.

[Sulico]

Are you saying that he was better than all of them?

He was smarter, and achieved more at that period. That's facts.
Yes, I personally think that makes him better, but that's my opinion that I don't force on anybody.

[Sulico]

you think you have the brain of a survivor, only what you elaborated is that you worship those who survive because you contribute nothing and only know how to copy others.

you speak fluent coronavirus my friend.

Uh? Didn't understand a thing. You'll have to explain.

[GimmeThat]

He was smarter, and achieved more at that period. That's facts.
Yes, I personally think that makes him better, but that's my opinion that I don't force on anybody.

in short, in your mind, corner 3 point players are the best players in the world. a shot even better than the pass to a wide open lay up.

[GimmeThat]

Uh? Didn't understand a thing. You'll have to explain.

how does someone who is 10+ years ahead of his time ended up being on the same team for 15 years.

[Sulico]

in short, in your mind, corner 3 point players are the best players in the world. a shot even better than the pass to a wide open lay up.

Where did you get that from?
Analytics discovered that 3s and layups are much more efficient than midrange shots, especially long midrange shots, and now everybody shoots 3 pointers instead of midrange. Manu figured that out long time ago. That's pretty much all I said. How did you get what's in my mind from that?


how does someone who is 10+ years ahead of his time ended up being on the same team for 15 years.

What the hell one have to do with the other?

[GimmeThat]

Where did you get that from?
Analytics discovered that 3s and layups are much more efficient than midrange shots, especially long midrange shots, and now everybody shoots 3 pointers instead of midrange. Manu figured that out long time ago. That's pretty much all I said. How did you get what's in my mind from that?



What the hell one have to do with the other?

Analytics discovered, hmmm, you're saying when the rules were implemented, the whole league had absolutely no idea how it would effect the game, even when in comparison to the very year before without the 3-point line. It was not until Manu had the absolute true impact of the 3 point line been realized.

and let me guess, this style of shot selection has only provided 2-MVPs not named Manu, but Stephen Curry.
I would also be intrigued to learn how many FMVP this type of play has produced. But then, it's, let us guess, by your definition, because he was 20+ years ahead of our time thanks to people like me.

but I'm sure the law of physics would probably tell us, the energy it takes to hoist a 3 point shot and make them with precision is roughly balanced out between the 10-16 feet 2 point shot

[Sulico]

Analytics discovered, hmmm, you're saying when the rules were implemented, the whole league had absolutely no idea how it would effect the game, even when in comparison to the very year before without the 3-point line. It was not until Manu had the absolute true impact of the 3 point line been realized.

and let me guess, this style of shot selection has only provided 2-MVPs not named Manu, but Stephen Curry.
I would also be intrigued to learn how many FMVP this type of play has produced. But then, it's, let us guess, by your definition, because he was 20+ years ahead of our time thanks to people like me.

but I'm sure the law of physics would probably tell us, the energy it takes to hoist a 3 point shot and make them with precision is roughly balanced out between the 10-16 feet 2 point shot

When 3pt line was introduced to NBA only 6 teams out of 22 made more than one!! 3pt shot per game. And yes, only few years ago analytics took over and NBA realized that 3pt shot is the second most effective shot after layup/dunk which made midrange shot a bad shot if you have opportunity to shoot 3pt or layup instead.

This style produced all last MVPs in Harden, Giannis and Giannis or Lebron this year.
I don't need to explain Harden I believe.

Giannis:

0-3ft/.478
3-10ft/.161
10-16ft/.072
16-3pt/.051
3P/.238

Which looks just like Manu's from 15 years ago with more layups and less 3s for obvious reasons.

And Lebron:

0-3ft/.366
3-10ft/.139
10-16ft/.072
16-3pt/.099
3P/.324

This is just exact copy of 2005 Manu shot selection.


That last paragraph of yours... Do you have any data on that? Cuz I don't. And if you don't, why bring that up?

[SATAN]

Manu was great. This forum is the only place that over rated him.

[GimmeThat]

When 3pt line was introduced to NBA only 6 teams out of 22 made more than one!! 3pt shot per game. And yes, only few years ago analytics took over and NBA realized that 3pt shot is the second most effective shot after layup/dunk which made midrange shot a bad shot if you have opportunity to shoot 3pt or layup instead.

This style produced all last MVPs in Harden, Giannis and Giannis or Lebron this year.
I don't need to explain Harden I believe.

Giannis:

0-3ft/.478
3-10ft/.161
10-16ft/.072
16-3pt/.051
3P/.238

Which looks just like Manu's from 15 years ago with more layups and less 3s for obvious reasons.

And Lebron:

0-3ft/.366
3-10ft/.139
10-16ft/.072
16-3pt/.099
3P/.324

This is just exact copy of 2005 Manu shot selection.


That last paragraph of yours... Do you have any data on that? Cuz I don't. And if you don't, why bring that up?

so we went from 88-89 with 89 FGA a game, at 6.6 3PA per game with eFG% of .489% pace 100.6 ORTG of 107.8
to 19-20 with 88.8 FGA a game, at 33.9 3PA per game with eFG% of .528% pace pace 100.2 ORTG of 110.4

if you actually believe in these statistics, without even considering the possibility of steroids, again, the corner 3 would be the most effective shot, and not the 2nd most effective.

but hey,

That's facts. That's my opinion that I don't force on anybody.

[Sulico]

so we went from 88-89 with 89 FGA a game, at 6.6 3PA per game with eFG% of .489% pace 100.6 ORTG of 107.8
to 19-20 with 88.8 FGA a game, at 33.9 3PA per game with eFG% of .528% pace pace 100.2 ORTG of 110.4

if you actually believe in these statistics, without even considering the possibility of steroids, again, the corner 3 would be the most effective shot, and not the 2nd most effective.

but hey,

That's facts. That's my opinion that I don't force on anybody.

God damn it. Why every time I argue with somebody on this board I have a feeling they are drunk or mental...

Why did you list those stats?
I do believe in them, now that I checked, even though I don't understand why.
Those stats are really similar, because they shoot more 3pt now and they shot more FT then.
WTF are steroids have to do with anything?
No, corner 3 is not most effective shot. NBA average of corner 3 is .389%. .389% of 3pt corner shots in efficiency equal to .584% of 2pt shots and league averages for shots from 0 to 3ft (layups) is .666% which is better than .584%.

What is your opinion? You didn't state your opinion, so it's pretty much impossible to force it on anybody..

[MrFonzworth]

God damn it. Why every time I argue with somebody on this board I have a feeling they are drunk or mental...

Why did you list those stats?
I do believe in them, now that I checked, even though I don't understand why.
Those stats are really similar, because they shoot more 3pt now and they shot more FT then.
WTF are steroids have to do with anything?
No, corner 3 is not most effective shot. NBA average of corner 3 is .389%. .389% of 3pt corner shots in efficiency equal to .584% of 2pt shots and league averages for shots from 0 to 3ft (layups) is .666% which is better than .584%.

What is your opinion? You didn't state your opinion, so it's pretty much impossible to force it on anybody..

Just letting you know in case you're actually new and not an alt, GimmeThat is a 90 year old with Alzheimer's. The arguments and stats that he produces is equivalent to what you would get from alphabet soup.

[tpols]

All of those players are better than manu. Manu on his own team is too fragile to carry as the man he was often times 3rd option on his team. He's like thunder harden.

[Whoah10115]

Manu is special but OP and follow up post are full of terrible.

[Real Men Wear Green]

GimmeThat forgot that he's posting under his gimmick. I choose to focus on that instead of the claim that Manu was the greatest guard of his era.

[red1]

agreed 110%



ginobili's game is flawless. he's a perfect shooting guard.

[Axe]

Just letting you know in case you're actually new and not an alt, GimmeThat is a 90 year old with Alzheimer's. The arguments and stats that he produces is equivalent to what you would get from alphabet soup.
GimmeThat is actually a mad scientist, not just a 90-year old geezer with Alzheimer's.

[Smoke117]

He was smarter, and achieved more at that period. That's facts.
Yes, I personally think that makes him better, but that's my opinion that I don't force on anybody.

Doesn't make it any less stupid whether you are forcing it upon anyone else or not.

[Lebron23]

All of those players are better than manu. Manu on his own team is too fragile to carry as the man he was often times 3rd option on his team. He's like thunder harden.

Harden is all time rank higher than him. Ginobili was a terrific player, but people who were saying he's was better than Wade don't know shit about basketball.

[Axe]

I'm sure ginobili was a better long-range shooter than the flash himself

[Whoah10115]

I'm not as sold on Harden being ahead of him, but I don't know if that's due to him being active and in his prime plus how gross it is to watch him.

But Ginobili in the playoffs is ahead of him. Important.

And just in case, Harden is not near Wade.